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Each time I would get high, I experienced more and more connectedness to life.

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I experienced empathy in deeper ways than I ever had, and this followed through even

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to when I was sober.

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It culminated in an arguably bad trip, where I experienced the life of a factory-caged

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creature who never saw sunlight or socialized for its whole life.

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That experience played a large part in going vegan for me, which happened the next week.

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I stopped eating meat while on a mushroom trip.

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I was eating chicken and it tasted like ash and death, and I felt an omniscient presence

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that wanted me to stop, and so I decided that moment to stop eating meat.

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That was 14 years ago.

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I became vegan a few months later just as a logical next step.

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I was confronted with my guilt for eating animals during a psychedelic experience.

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I didn't immediately go vegan though.

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I continued to consume animal products until about five months later when I came across

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Earthling Ed on YouTube, and I decided to go vegan overnight.

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While my decision did come a while after having that psychedelic experience, I do think it

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played a major role.

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I don't know when or if I would have gone vegan had I not had that experience.

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I watched the Unity documentary on LSD in 2020, the part where it says,

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When you look in an animal's eyes, you can see that they love their life.

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They love their life to the same degree that you love your own.

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I started crying with how beautiful it was.

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Ever since then, I was vegan.

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I found the hopeful message of Unity to be more personally inspiring than Earthlings

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had been.

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When taking LSD, I feel that veganism is 100% the way to go.

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It helped me not only stay vegan for the rest of my life, but also to be even more active

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to help nature and animals.

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So yeah, the feeling of compassion is real.

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I mean, LSD was banned for a reason in the 60s and 70s.

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It got banned because people started taking LSD and stopped supporting the Vietnam War.

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Of course there were more reasons, but you know.

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So I'd say LSD and psychedelics will make you rethink your actions as well as make you

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feel compassion, which then leads you to be more open to veganism, or at least against

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any kind of violence.

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Welcome to the Vegan Report.

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My name is Ryan and today we are going to talk about psychedelics and connecting with

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nature.

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For years, I have been hearing stories of people taking psychedelics and being transformed

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by the experience, overcoming depression or an addiction, overcoming PTSD, stimulating

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their creativity, and more to the point of this podcast, gaining a sense of connectiveness

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with nature, a higher level of empathy towards others, including animals, and even a willingness

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to become vegan.

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When I hear such stories, I cannot help but think, maybe psychedelics are the powerful

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ally that the vegan movement needs.

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Maybe we should fight for them to become legal and more readily available as they might provoke

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the cultural reset we need to overcome speciesism.

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To discuss this topic, I have with me Ellen Polanan.

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She is the co-author of one of the only studies out there examining the link between the use

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of psychedelics and how we treat animals.

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The study is titled Classic Psychedelics and Human-Animal Relations, and you can find a

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link to the study in the description below.

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But Ellen is more than a researcher, many of you know her as Kelly, a talented musician

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and singer, in the background of the real life testimonies you heard in the introduction

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of the episode was playing Crane's, one of her songs.

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Again, visit the description below to access all of Kelly's music.

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Ellen welcome to the show, thank you so much for being here.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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So I actually don't know much about psychedelics, I never had a psychedelic experience, so my

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first question for you is what are psychedelics?

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I must just say before we start that if you would have said to me like 10 years ago that

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I would be on a podcast talking about psychedelics, I would have laughed in your face because

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I am not an expert on psychedelics.

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I am an expert on what I call being annoying, which means that I tend to place myself in

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rooms and ask questions, shouldn't we look at this?

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And that is what happened also with my colleagues who are very knowledgeable in psychedelics

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and that were so kindly inviting me to the discussion and created the study with me where

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we looked at human relations and psychedelics.

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So what I really did in this study was to kind of post that question.

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We knew that previous studies have looked at psychedelics and nature relatedness and

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there was really a gap there.

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Why?

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Because of the testimonies that you shared before, we kind of talked about it but it

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hadn't really been studied before.

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So that was kind of an insight that we should probably look at this as well because as many

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of us know, human relationships with animals has fundamentally changed the surface of our

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planet in a negative way due to how we treat them and how we imprison billions of them.

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So a kind of important thing to ask ourselves is how do we change this and what kind of

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interventions could we use?

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And that's where psychedelics come in.

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So psychedelics, today when I kind of historically emailed my colleague, I'm going to talk about

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psychedelics today.

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What should I say?

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I don't know if I remember anything.

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But then he kind of reminded me, like, you know, you wrote this article, so you know,

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but if you want to know a fun fact, the word psychedelics come from a Greek, has Greek

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roots and that stems from kind of being something mind revealing.

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And that is something that we associate with psychedelics kind of being mind revealing.

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So from what I've come to learn, what is included in the word psychedelics is still debatable

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within the scientific community.

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But in our article, we refer to kind of classic psychedelics, which is a group of psychoactive

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drugs that can produce changes in perception, mood and cognitive processes in different

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ways.

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So in daily terms, that can mean, you know, magic mushrooms or GMT, which is the primary

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ingredient in ayahuasca.

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So kind of the ingredients that we know alter our perceptions of reality and our place in

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reality.

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So I would say that that is what psychedelics mean.

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And we can talk about, and that is probably what we're going to talk about in this context,

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those famous psychoactive ingredients that alter, can alter the way we experience life.

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I like the fact that you bring the animal rights agenda to your work and use your perspective

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to ask pertinent questions about important topics.

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What has been, you know, what have you studied in university?

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What are your expertise in terms of, you know, your place in that study and your role?

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I think I've been quite of a hedonist when it comes to studying.

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I've made my own programs.

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I first I did a bachelor's program in political science, but I kind of shaped my own program

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and the courses.

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I can say like this, that everything I have studied on university has always been with

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the kind of animal perspectives in the back of my mind.

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Like how could I use these tools, these research tools or methods or mindsets to carry forth

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the importance of altering our relationship to animals for the better in a positive way

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and show the positive consequences that come from that positive transition.

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So for instance, when I studied public science, I saw the need to kind of, okay, how could

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we see animals as members of society, even if, for instance, political parties that are

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based on animal rights often get ridiculed.

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You can't get kittens to vote.

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I mean, duh.

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But how could we make sure that animals are included in the decision-making processes

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in a rightful way when the decisions really impact their lives?

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So more about really the rights side of it.

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So how can we make decisions that really impact animals' lives and not really try to even

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have them present in the room or have somebody that speaks for them in the room?

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And how could that be called a democratic process if we do not do so?

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So those kinds of questions.

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And also I studied environmental law and philosophy and noticed how easily those classical moral

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philosophers divide between body and mind and logic and feeling.

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And those kind of things that are just kind of boring and untrue.

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So I kind of had that as a perspective with me all along.

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And it made it quite fun as well, because even if I studied the most really not my cup

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of tea courses with whatever that might be, I could always think about how could I use

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these processes to carry forth animal rights or that kind of perspective.

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So it kind of helped me as well to go through different phases in life.

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And I also wrote my bachelor's thesis on a kind of I did a discourse analysis of meat

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consumption in relation to climate change and how that was discussed in the Swedish

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politics.

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And that was over 10 years ago.

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And unfortunately, I don't see a lot of changes in that area.

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And then I studied public health and learned about quantitative methods, which was horrific,

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because it was a bit scary to sit there with a computer and doing all these kinds of statistical

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analysis.

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But that was really insightful as well to be able to look at research and say, OK, how

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could I criticize this or how could this be a sane argument?

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Because there is so much misinformation out there as well.

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And it's really important to try to get the tools, as much tools as possible, to kind

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of scrutinize the research out there in its biases.

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And I tried to do that with my own research as well.

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Why didn't this could not be true or closer to truth or whatever?

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We all know there are a lot of research out there saying this and that about plant-based

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diets and this and that about everything.

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So just learning about these different methods and the different ways that we calculate what

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is closest to the truth can be very fruitful in realizing, aha, this is what research means

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and this is how research can be used in different ways.

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And in those public health classes, I learned a lot about what was not being said.

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That is usually the thing that has taught me the most in every academic setting I've

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been in and also in every research setting I've been in is that there's also something

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that we learn from what is not being said.

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So in the public health class, it was we never talked about plant-based diets.

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We didn't talk about the relationship between climate change and environmental destruction,

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animal exploitation and human health.

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We didn't talk about pandemics.

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I read that on the site because I found that very important and a very important argument

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to transition from the way we are living now to a way that at least minimizes the risk

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of future pandemics and epidemics.

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So really in the heart of everything that I've done academically has always been just

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a wish to learn more about the world and how I can see it in different ways and how I can

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learn from that and to bring that into the conversations I have.

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And I think animal rights have been a very central part in that in the decisions I've

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made and it's been joyful.

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We usually talk about the things we have to give up when we talk about animal rights,

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but I do think it's been just joyful to have that as perspective.

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It's really helped me to kind of find the passion and motivation to go through those

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big books.

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I want to go back to your study and some of the words that you have used in that study

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that maybe most listeners would not be familiar with.

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And I want to take the time to maybe define them.

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So talking about psychedelics, you talk about something called ego dissolution.

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So what is ego dissolution?

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It has been found in studies on psychedelic use and it can really be said to be a loss

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of self-identity, your boundaries, the boundaries between yourself and your surroundings is

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decreased or absent.

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It's a feeling of being that is different from the ones that we might know now as the

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ego that here is where I begin, there is where my surroundings begin.

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So it's really about dissolving that boundary, a feeling of that boundary being dissolved.

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And it's a really interesting term.

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I found it interesting because it made me think about how human exceptionalism is such

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a common theme in our culture and especially in Western culture, colonial culture.

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Sorry, Ellen, can you define that?

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Because in vegan circles, we hear about speciesism, but we don't hear about human exceptionalism

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that often.

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Well, it's really linking terms because you can't really have speciesism without human

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exceptionalism in a way because speciesism is really pushing your species in front of

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other species and thinking that you're superior.

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And that could not really be done without human exceptionalism, believing that, well,

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we are the exception.

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And I've been in very, very, well, very, no, that's not really an exaggeration.

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I've been in many rooms, scientific rooms as well, with brilliant minds.

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But when it comes to human animal relations or the way we relate to each other, there

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is almost an ideological feeling in the room that, well, this is established.

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The human exceptionalism is established.

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Animals don't have culture.

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Animals don't have languages.

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Animals don't have this.

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And usually it is used in a way to describe humanity and the way we humans work.

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And in many instances, it's very, very wrong, according to the research that we know.

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So human exceptionalism is a really sociocultural phenomenon that we construct to make it easier

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to place ourselves above other species.

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Well, another question I'm dying to ask.

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Why is the research that we have currently on animals describing them as having personalities

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and feelings and being complex creatures?

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Why is it not making any impact on the way we think about them?

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And I will go as far as to talk about Darwin.

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Why Darwin's discovery of natural selection have not completely and radically changed

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our interactions with the natural world, with the rest of the animal kingdom.

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He's the one who said, and I think you quote him or paraphrase him in the study or in one

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of your interviews, but he's the one who said the difference between humans and animals

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is a difference of degrees and not of kind or nature.

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So why is it not making an impact on the way we think about the world?

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Wow.

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If we knew that.

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I believe that in our, and I think we will come back to this, but I think that the way

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that we currently, I think that the way I feel, and I think many others feel like that,

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who fights for animal rights or who is part of the ongoing battle, so to say, is trying

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to see how could I reach this individual or how could I change this and that.

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And I think in that insight in wow, how much we could change with just changing the way

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people eat, for instance, what a tremendous effect and impact that might have.

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So we focus on the individual and reaching that individual, but I think that is a very

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important effort, but I do think that sometimes we forget the powerful and resourceful industries

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that are behind these habits that make up our lives and the enormous amounts of propaganda

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that has been fed to us and is continuously being fed and that a lot of the decisions

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that have made a horrendous impact on earth and on public health and on animal health,

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those decisions have been made in rooms that are closed and that are not made by politicians,

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but in boards, in economic institutions and businesses.

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So while I think that a lot of frustration comes from, oh, we could do so much by just

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changing how individuals think about this and that, I think that we should also remember

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that the frustration that some of us carry might also be directed to the people in power.

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Why didn't you have our interest in mind?

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Because we're normalizing talking about this when it comes to the tobacco industry, but

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we should normalize talking about this when it comes to all industries because too many

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free cards have been handed out at the expense of our planet and public health.

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And I think that is important to remember.

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And I think when we talk about, for instance, climate change and environmental exploitation,

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the tendency and the daily rhetoric is that it's an external problem that can be fixed

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through technology.

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But I do think that many of us who knows the consequences of technology, which means that

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the industries are more efficient, which creates a lot of suffering.

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So we understand the kind of negative sides of technological innovations if it doesn't

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come with inner dimensions of change.

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So I think when we talk about climate change, when we talk about animal rights, when we

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talk about human rights, when we talk about everything that has to do with rights, we're

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talking about attitudes.

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We're talking about our internal lives that we manifest on a daily basis.

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And that can be really hard to change, but we are social animals.

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We are.

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And I think that one small transition can create, can do something, can create a domino

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effect.

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So I do think that there is a place for hope, but I do think that we also need to remind

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ourselves that years and years of misinformation and propaganda is behind these daily habits

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of individuals.

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And we need interventions and we need people who want this to change and who wants to put

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our health before profit.

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And that is also a way to go about it to kind of win people over because when we cause the

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suffering of billions of animals, we're not putting human health first.

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Our health is always interconnected.

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We saw that in the pandemic.

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So we need to alter that perception and ego dissolution.

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It can be a way to do that because it can remind people that the boundaries that we

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have socially and culturally created towards the outside world is not really the way the

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world works.

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It's not really the way the world works.

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And the pandemic was a harsh reminder, but other things can be a harsh reminder as well

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when the climate starts to change around us or as in my personal experience, the forest

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in my home village is being turned into clear cuts and I'm very personally affected by this.

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We are reminded that we know this.

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We know that we are interconnected with the world around us, even if we are fed with the

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idea that there is a separation going on.

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Pets can remind us about this.

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There's so many reminders.

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And I think we also write about that in the article about these kind of reminders in our

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daily lives and in the context where we are that can remind us about this interconnection.

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It can also feed us with separation.

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I think one important thing to hold on to is to find these moments of interconnection

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to guide us forward because I think that is the closest to reality that will ever come

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as humans.

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So if I understand well, ego dissolution is about finding back that connection with your

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environment.

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Basically that sense that you are separate from the world disappears.

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I think that ego dissolution is a phenomenon where you feel that that boundary is dissolving.

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I don't think and it has been linked to different measurements, if I'm not wrong.

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I think they have seen that it has been associated with well-being, for instance, and positive

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outcomes.

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But I'm hesitant to say that ego dissolution is the way to go.

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But I think it's an interesting phenomenon.

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And particularly because we are so trained to rather feel the opposite, to feel a separation.

295
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So that was what kind of sucked me into the concept.

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Oh, that's intriguing.

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It's something I love breaking barriers.

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So when I heard that, I was like, oh, you have my attention, ego dissolution.

299
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But yeah, so yeah.

300
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Well that's why I think that psychedelics are an interesting prospect for activists,

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because I'm not sure you can reach that goal of connecting people with nature just by the

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Socratic method of stopping people in the streets and debating them about veganism.

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Like we see it with the cube of truth.

304
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I think there are as many ways as there are people.

305
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I think you can reach people in many, many different ways.

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I think we can all do it in our own way just by being who we are in the context that we

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are.

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I think one of the most important insights that I got from the psychedelic study was

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that context is so important.

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Context and mindset.

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It would also be a bit risky to say that psychedelic would act as a kind of quick fix, because

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I know that we humans, we tend to also in our culture, we tend to look at, oh, quick

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fix.

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How can I quick fix this?

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And that is also a risk that we culturally appropriate, that we exploit just to get to

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that lesson that we need to learn to move forward.

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I think we need to also sit in the discomfort of what has been done and how can we do better

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and create contexts that really help us see the positive impacts of human-animal nature

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relations.

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For instance, after psychedelic experience, people are very vulnerable to stimuli.

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What happens if you go on a spiritual ego-dissolving journey or whatever we should call it, and

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then you come back into your daily life and you're still met with the individualized pieces

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of products that animals represent in the store, for instance?

324
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What happens when you're constantly fed with that kind of division again and that kind

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of culture again?

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It's really about context, I believe.

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If you're open to it in the beginning or if you have a community where that kind of way

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of looking at animals is more accessible and possible.

329
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I do think context is really the key in this study as well, that just enabling for other

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relationships with animals that are more positive and less de-individualized and more nuanced

331
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could really do something.

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If you add psychedelics in there, wow, the results might be very fascinating and very

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effective.

334
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But also if you add music in there or if you add whatever ingredient in that context, who

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knows?

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We could have made ourselves a transformative community just by creating those kind of ingredients.

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Of course, I'm thinking about the 1960s and 70s and how psychedelics were used and

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what was the impact on the society of that time.

339
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It's fascinating.

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There was an explosion of culture and art and music.

341
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Some of the best singers we can think of were born from that era.

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Also we get stories of scientists who have used psychedelics from that time to make breakthroughs.

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We have a model of what society looked like with a more accessible use of psychedelics.

344
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Yeah, that's super interesting.

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That was the introduction of an article I read.

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I remember when I was writing the article, it was about that and the music and the pro-environmentalism

347
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that was occurring at the same time was the psychedelic movement and the environmental

348
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,720
movement went alongside.

349
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That's really interesting for sure.

350
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Yes, I have the image of hippies in mind.

351
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I want to quickly go back to the hostile forces, to those ideas.

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When you said that you studied environmental science, I think, environmental law, and in

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the context of your studies, there was no mention of pandemics.

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I thought about the risk that factory farming poses on public health in terms of zoonotic

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diseases.

356
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Then I thought, okay, do you believe that academic institutions that you visited from

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which you got your education were in a way captured by the agriculture industry or big

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corporation or I don't want to get conspirational here, but I want to ask you that question

359
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still.

360
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:44,520
I'm going to answer that by saying something that has nothing to do with it.

361
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When I graduated from upper secondary school, which also was a political science focused

362
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program, I said to my teacher that I wanted to focus on animal rights in going forward

363
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:04,280
to the university.

364
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,840
She was like, oh, that's such a shame.

365
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,160
You were so good at human rights.

366
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I think that is still the way that most people live their lives because that is the way that

367
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we are being taught from day one to make that separation.

368
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Really what many, many researchers before me have been saying for a long time, not just

369
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:42,960
researchers but poets and artists, is that that is really not true.

370
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That is not the way we live our lives.

371
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But it's still very present because I think that what happens in academia, and I don't

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think it's a willful ignorance.

373
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I don't think so.

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00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:06,400
I think it's just because we have created academia in a way that makes it very accessible

375
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,760
in a way that we make these boxes and this is what we should learn and this is how reality

376
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:11,760
looks like.

377
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:19,320
That is one purpose of research, to make it easier to categorize and to do all these things.

378
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:28,360
But I do think that issues that have to do with animal rights have been drowned a bit.

379
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:35,760
It has been hard to reach the surface for many different reasons.

380
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,120
But I can't really, I do think it's just cultural.

381
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I do think that we are trained to say, we will deal with that later.

382
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We haven't figured this thing out yet, so we will deal with that later.

383
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,840
Or it's not as relevant as talking about tobacco and alcohol, for instance, when it came to

384
00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:00,120
the public health program, which in a way is really important to talk about.

385
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:07,880
But it's also important to talk about diets and the way that animal exploitation is really

386
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harmful to all of us and especially for the often marginalized communities living close

387
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:21,000
by or for the people working within these horrible institutions that suffer, many suffer

388
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from PTSD, for instance.

389
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So I think it's still seen as a bit of a marginalized or very, very specific subject, animal rights

390
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,920
or things that has to do with animals, when it really is just ingrained in our lives in

391
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,400
most things that we talk about.

392
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A lot of things we have in our homes are made from animals.

393
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We don't even think about it or people who live, we can think about it.

394
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:54,800
But normally we don't stop and go, wait, this candle, is that?

395
00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:04,000
And I've worked because I was also part of a research project that looked at the pandemic

396
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:11,680
and its consequences and I was part of a team where I again said, well, what about the way

397
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,440
we treat animals and the reason why we have a pandemic?

398
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,760
Why aren't we talking about that?

399
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,080
And my colleagues said, here, here, that is what we want to look at.

400
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:22,120
So we did that.

401
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:27,200
And we collaborated with one of the founders of One Health in Sweden.

402
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,360
And One Health is a concept that looks at the interconnectedness in health between humans,

403
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,320
animals and the environment.

404
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:44,360
And he told me that years before the COVID-19 pandemic, I don't remember if it was one year

405
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:52,280
or if it was a time before the pandemic arrived to Sweden, that he wanted to have a seminar

406
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:58,600
to politicians talking about the risks of a pandemic happening linked to the way we

407
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,240
treat animals.

408
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:06,840
And he has been specializing in bird flu and things like that.

409
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:12,440
But he really wanted to have a seminar to kind of inform politicians about the risks

410
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:20,880
of future pandemics, which he found to be bound to happen due to the way that the world

411
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,400
is functioning right now.

412
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,000
And there was not a lot of interest.

413
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:35,760
And he even had a book about pandemics that was completely covered in dust there on the

414
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:36,760
bookshelf.

415
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:43,760
And then the pandemic happened and the interest just skyrocketed.

416
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:50,280
And that is kind of an example of how I think these voices have always, the voices of resistance

417
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,360
have always been there.

418
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,960
It's just very hard for them to be heard because there are so many other things that are

419
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,760
pushed forward to be prioritized.

420
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:06,720
And especially in a world where we are trained to not see that connection, it's not seen

421
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:17,880
as the most important subjects to look at because, well, I do think it's not a willful

422
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:18,880
act.

423
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:25,480
I do just think that it is just the way the world works because of how we've been trained

424
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,440
to think.

425
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:33,960
And sadly, in institutions where great minds are, we all have blind spots.

426
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,800
I have my blind spots, we all have them.

427
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,780
And they are more easy to have when we're trained to walk with the cognitive dissonance

428
00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:47,400
all day long.

429
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:54,360
You make the point in, I think, the introduction of the study that people who have a sensitivity

430
00:38:54,360 --> 00:39:04,080
towards animals, who care about animal rights, are also people who are less likely to be

431
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:12,240
criminals, to be intolerant, to be abusive.

432
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:17,240
And the opposite is true when we think about animal abusers.

433
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:27,840
There's this image, a cliche of the murderer, the serial killer, then, was torturing animals

434
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,920
during his childhood.

435
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:38,560
And when we talk about sexism, who are the first to kill and abuse animals?

436
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:50,520
And so many, for instance, dogs in shelters will be afraid of human men and will only

437
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,280
interact with human females.

438
00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:00,200
And I feel like it's just there.

439
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,640
People are conscious of it, but they're just not making the connection.

440
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:13,000
They're not able to step beyond that cognitive dissonance you're talking about.

441
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,400
The last push is not there.

442
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,600
So yeah.

443
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:28,320
In that type of research, I think I've read a lot of Aisha Akhtar's work, and I must say

444
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:35,760
that I really recommend everyone reading her work, because she talks a lot about, especially

445
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:44,400
from a public health view, how human rights are connected to animal rights and those relations

446
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:50,840
that you were talking about, for instance, through abuse and violence.

447
00:40:50,840 --> 00:41:00,040
And how I've come to think of it is that the key element in all this, I think, is the role

448
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,620
of dehumanization or the de-individualization.

449
00:41:04,620 --> 00:41:09,060
If you animalize someone, which we do with animals, but we also do with other groups

450
00:41:09,060 --> 00:41:18,960
of people, it's easier to not see how these individuals, how you can inflict pain in these

451
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:28,240
individuals, or how if something happens to their bodies or violence or whatever, you

452
00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:34,520
kind of discredit or you ignore the sensations that these individuals can have.

453
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:43,680
So I think the key element in this is dehumanization and how those processes work.

454
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:53,280
And cognitive dissonance is also a coping mechanism.

455
00:41:53,280 --> 00:42:03,920
So if your values and your actions, they conflict what to do.

456
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:12,160
And parts of that answer can be that, well, if that individual that I'm doing this to

457
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,920
is not really an individual, then this gap doesn't exist anymore.

458
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:24,300
So in our very high human intelligence, we have a lot of ways to rationalize bad behavior

459
00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:29,680
or rationalize things to ourselves to make us feel better.

460
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:39,120
And I do think an important part of moving forward is to get the tools to look at ourselves

461
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:46,760
and sit in that discomfort and just be, okay, what have I been taught and what have I learned?

462
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:52,400
And do I have dehumanizing tendencies or do I have blind spots or whatever?

463
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,120
And I do think that doing that as a society and as a community could be really healing

464
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,080
and could be really transformative.

465
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:11,040
Continuing on, by the way, the term de-individualizing, I love it.

466
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,720
One of my new favorite terms now.

467
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:23,000
Another term you used in the study and that I want you to define is something you call

468
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,840
the biophilia hypothesis.

469
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,840
So what is that about?

470
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:38,560
Well, that is really a term that emphasizes the human innate need to connect with the

471
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,320
natural world.

472
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:50,120
And has been suggested, inspired by that term, that nature connectedness, to feel connected

473
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,000
with nature is a human need even.

474
00:43:53,000 --> 00:44:04,640
So it's really a term that wants to say that we have a need to connect with the natural

475
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:05,640
world.

476
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:11,400
And this need might not only be physical, but also spiritual.

477
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,880
And it can have many, it can have nuances to it.

478
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:23,840
So it can also be a very spiritual term and kind of psychological term as well.

479
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:32,320
And as we've talked about, I do think that there's something that we experience, even

480
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:37,720
though I know you said that we've kind of built away a lot of nature and we kind of

481
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:42,600
created a human world in a sense.

482
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:49,680
I think just going on the subway in town can be a really good reminder that you cannot

483
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,560
build away nature in a way.

484
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:52,560
Nature is always there.

485
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,480
You can just alter the way nature looks like.

486
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,920
But we never live in human worlds.

487
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:06,120
We always live in interconnected worlds with a multi-species world with nature.

488
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,000
And just like standing on the subway and the pigeon walks in and you're like, okay, there

489
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,000
you are.

490
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:12,000
How nice, how lovely.

491
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,840
And you can join us and then the pigeon, the group of pigeons stand there for a couple

492
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:18,760
of stops and then they just walk out.

493
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:25,480
And I think those instances are lovely reminders of that we can try with humans.

494
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,680
And I don't think that is a goal.

495
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:34,880
I think that is a horrible goal, but we can try to kind of build our human world.

496
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:40,240
But the world would just remind us like, hello, here I am.

497
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:44,240
And I find that just wonderful.

498
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:52,080
And I think during the pandemic, the biophilia hypothesis was probably experienced by a lot

499
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:53,080
of people.

500
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,360
So for instance, people who couldn't...

501
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,480
In Sweden, we had the fortune to not be as restricted in our movements.

502
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,780
So we could go outside, for instance.

503
00:46:01,780 --> 00:46:09,800
And a lot of us went to the forest to reflect and to help us distress and to mirror ourselves

504
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,720
in another kind of a more...

505
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:17,000
A reality that is more still and peaceful.

506
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:22,760
And also for the people who had to be inside, research has shown that if they had a tree

507
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:27,800
they could look at, it helped them to kind of establish this connection to the natural

508
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,760
world anyway and feel less isolated.

509
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:37,960
And all those research says, showing that if you have a tree outside of your hospital

510
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,360
window, it helps you feel faster.

511
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,960
And all of these things, I think really just pinpoint what that hypothesis is trying to

512
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:57,320
say that we have this innate need, even if we have created somewhat a culture that is

513
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:02,040
based upon this human exceptionalism and based on this kind of separation of nature and culture

514
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:10,160
and animals and humans, that we have this need.

515
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:19,480
And when we really realize that, I think we need to in these times, we need to realize

516
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:28,280
that the time to really act on this need is now because we are doing so much to this planet

517
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:35,200
that we will regret and that will have consequences for also our health, for instance, deforestation

518
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:43,360
and environmental degradation and all of these things.

519
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:49,360
I think I've read a Danish interview or what it was that inspired me to write my lyrics

520
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:57,100
for O and it was that he had been biking with his son and he had not been experiencing the

521
00:47:57,100 --> 00:48:01,040
insects in the same way that he had summers before.

522
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:06,920
Just these minor changes in the way we experience life when these change, we will miss the interactions

523
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:08,480
we had with other animals.

524
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:13,760
We will miss it because it is information that we receive and that make up our lives,

525
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,200
but we take them for granted.

526
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:22,120
So when the birds silence, we will know and we will miss it.

527
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:31,200
So I do think that it's time to act on this kind of thesis now more than ever.

528
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:52,720
By the way, oh, my favorite song of yours.

529
00:48:52,720 --> 00:49:10,040
I'm just realizing in how much of a mess we are talking with you.

530
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:11,040
Oh no.

531
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:22,240
No, in the sense of how chaotic and nonsensical our situation is.

532
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:30,320
Because, yes, I agree that we feel a need to connect with nature.

533
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:41,840
I absolutely agree with the biophilia hypothesis, the premise of that theory.

534
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:49,040
But you talked about the pandemic and how people went hiking a lot.

535
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,460
And that is something we also experience in Canada.

536
00:49:53,460 --> 00:50:00,760
People instead of going to Southern America, where they usually go for vacation, went and

537
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,680
visited our national parks.

538
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:15,480
But then there was a big scandal about how the national park were getting lots of garbage

539
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:27,480
and nature was getting destroyed and trees were being cut and it started lots of fires.

540
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:36,960
And from an individual perspective, we want to live near a forest or near a park or a

541
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:46,280
garden and our houses that are near green zones are worth more on the market.

542
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:57,440
But if we see a spider in the kitchen or we get all crazy and we want to kill it and we

543
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:10,520
don't like mosquitoes and we're intolerant of any kind of...

544
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,480
Like if it's too sunny, we complain.

545
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,120
If there's too much rain, we start to complain.

546
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,440
We're always complaining about nature.

547
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:30,440
And so there is that and then there's the whole aspect of, like you mentioned, like

548
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:39,880
we talked before, we understand that there is a link between us and the natural world,

549
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,120
that we are part of the animal kingdom.

550
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,920
We have so much data and studies backing up the fact that animals are sentient.

551
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:58,200
But then we have this big cognitive dissonance and we're not able to take the leap.

552
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:09,400
And so I find myself being in wonder of how much, again, nonsensical our attitude and

553
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,320
behaviors are.

554
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:20,040
Yeah, it's so interesting what you're saying because that is one of the things that I think

555
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:26,960
you realize when you read human animal studies or attitudes to animals, that they can be

556
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:37,440
so contra-intuitive and just conflicting in themselves, that they can be very ambivalent

557
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:46,320
and why do we eat that animal and not this, and very culturally linked just to habit or

558
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,240
class or status or whatever.

559
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:56,760
And it's so interesting what you said with the kind of opposite to having a need for

560
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:01,240
nature, that the kind of the fear of nature, which is really interesting now when we talk

561
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:07,400
about the pandemic, because that was one of the risks that we saw when we did explore

562
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:14,240
the consequences of the pandemic in relation to human animal nature relations is that in

563
00:53:14,240 --> 00:53:22,760
the word that we use, or not we, but the governments use or doctors use or whatever, animals and

564
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:29,800
nature can be seen as threats to human health.

565
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:35,400
And how does that alter our willingness to protect animals and nature if they are a threat

566
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:36,520
to us?

567
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:42,800
And that is a problem because usually when an animal poses a threat to us, for instance,

568
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:51,320
if a bat population has a disease that can be transmitted to humans, the standard is,

569
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,600
oh, we should kill all the bats.

570
00:53:55,600 --> 00:54:01,900
But maybe the problem why the infection was easily transmitted to us in the first place

571
00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:07,060
was because we destroyed the habitat of the bats.

572
00:54:07,060 --> 00:54:12,640
So what we really should do is that we should protect bats.

573
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,920
And in today's world, that can be very counterintuitive also because of the relations that we created

574
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:24,240
with animals that are very based on anthropocentric means and what is good for us humans and animals

575
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:26,560
being a function to us humans.

576
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:31,380
Why should we protect something that wants to kill us?

577
00:54:31,380 --> 00:54:38,400
So I really see an importance here in getting the message out to people.

578
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:48,960
And a more nuanced way of seeing our relationship to animals means, okay, the risk exists, but

579
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:50,800
why?

580
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:56,720
And if we think about the animal perspective and the animal life, a suitable measure should

581
00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:59,480
not be to kill all the individuals.

582
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:04,440
It might be to protect its habitat and make sure that they have a space where they can

583
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:05,440
be.

584
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:11,880
So we tend to see, when we talk about fear and we talk about those kinds of things, and

585
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:19,160
it's a valid fear because infectious diseases are increasing in this world, we usually tend

586
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:24,480
to double punish the animals that have these infections and not maybe think about ourselves

587
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:25,480
as the problem.

588
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:32,600
Usually we are the problem because we've built away their natural environments and that means

589
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,120
that they live closer to us.

590
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:41,040
So I do think that it's really important, especially after the pandemic, where there

591
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:45,360
is a risk that we can talk about animals as a risk to human health and also nature as

592
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:59,720
risks to human health, to really understand that we can create a kind of movement that

593
00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:07,800
shows politicians or decision makers that we are not okay with calling as an option

594
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:17,200
for treating this problem because we as a community or whatever, we want to create buffer

595
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:24,400
zones that decreases the risk of transmission and that can mean keeping that forest intact,

596
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:30,120
for instance, or maybe not building houses where bats live, for instance.

597
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:39,680
So I think the fear that we feel towards animals, especially here in the Western world, especially

598
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:48,120
in Sweden, where we have been quite fortunate with diseases and things like that, is that

599
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:49,120
it has...

600
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:50,920
Oh, they can't come here.

601
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:56,560
We've had the problem with wild boars and in Norway, they just killed everyone off.

602
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:02,760
And here in Sweden, they tried to restrict the area in which the disease is.

603
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:12,680
But also here, we have a very active forest industry that clear cuts a lot of natural

604
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,960
areas where the animals live.

605
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:25,160
So I do think that that fear that animals live where we live and that fear might guide

606
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:26,240
us to something.

607
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:35,160
It might guide us to, yes, because we are not letting them have their space.

608
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:39,600
I think just creating a more positive relationship with animals also come with...

609
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:47,720
Like in every healthy relationship, it comes with knowing when do I have to give you space?

610
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:51,160
How can I create a safe space for you and I to function?

611
00:57:51,160 --> 00:58:00,800
I do think we need to see it more as a personal relationship to understand, but it takes of

612
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:04,280
us to transform.

613
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:09,140
So it was really interesting what you said, because a lot of what I've been reading recently

614
00:58:09,140 --> 00:58:16,680
is about that fear messaging or risk messaging and the negative consequences that might come

615
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:17,680
from that.

616
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:18,680
Yeah.

617
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:19,680
Thanks.

618
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:32,360
Well, also, I would be remiss not to mention how in the vegan community, but also everywhere,

619
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:39,520
the word nature and natural comes with a positive perception.

620
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:47,960
So we want natural products and it's not very scientific because in a way, everything is

621
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:49,080
natural.

622
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:53,660
What do you mean by this is natural?

623
00:58:53,660 --> 00:59:06,200
What do you make of the use or misuse of the term natural to sell products, to cast a positive

624
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:11,940
light on something?

625
00:59:11,940 --> 00:59:18,640
It has become kind of an accessory for capitalism and for big corporations.

626
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:19,640
Yes.

627
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:20,640
For sure.

628
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:25,720
It is kind of a rabbit hole, isn't it?

629
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:27,760
Or natural.

630
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,480
It throws you out.

631
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:36,960
When you phrased that question, I was like, wow, that could be an endless or just like

632
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:42,960
a 24-hour discussion just about the world natural and how it's so ingrained in so many

633
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:43,960
things.

634
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,120
Well, I was also thinking of that ad.

635
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:54,560
I don't know if you watched that ad of Apple inviting Mother Nature to their headquarters.

636
00:59:54,560 --> 01:00:02,320
You have Tim Cook, who's the CEO of Apple, talking with Mother Nature about how Apple

637
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:10,400
is great and has a great relationship with nature and is environmentally friendly.

638
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:20,160
Mother Nature congratulates them for being a wonderful, environmentally friendly company,

639
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:21,240
which they are not.

640
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:22,600
They are absolutely not.

641
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:24,600
That sounds super surrealistic.

642
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,600
That sounds so surreal.

643
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,240
I haven't heard of it.

644
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:37,840
I just think about it because now I'm very active in the kind of the forest movement

645
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:39,960
here in Sweden trying to come by clear cuts.

646
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,320
I'm very into that area right now.

647
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,640
That might be why I'm constantly moving in that direction.

648
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:53,440
The word natural is a very problematic term there as well because a forest is seen as

649
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:58,800
something that is renewable, which in a sense, okay, understandable.

650
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:04,080
You can cut down a tree and it grows up again, but then you tend to miss the fact that a

651
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:12,760
forest comes with an ecosystem, comes with something that has been growing and living

652
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:20,840
and developing there for hundreds and hundreds of years, and that is now renewable.

653
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:25,960
There's a really ongoing trend here in Sweden, I think all over the world, that Sweden wants

654
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:31,520
to pose itself as a very, very environmentally friendly country with, we have these solutions

655
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:32,520
for this.

656
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:39,640
It's a commercial on TV that you can replace everything with trees, with wood.

657
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:47,240
They just walk around with everything is made from a tree and then you just think, okay,

658
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:52,840
there the old growth forest went like this because we barely have anything left.

659
01:01:52,840 --> 01:02:02,040
What's left is fields of trees of production, which is not a forest.

660
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:12,320
It's the typical way that we are trained to think as consumers or as citizens that we

661
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:17,880
are, I'm going to use one of your new favorite terms now, de-individualizing.

662
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:27,880
We are also de-spiritualizing places and individuals and not seeing the forest for its arrays of

663
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:36,080
relationships and networks and things that we have barely started to care about and explore

664
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:41,280
that are being destroyed due to the forest industry.

665
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,120
We are just learning to see the trees.

666
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:48,440
There's one tree, there's a second tree, and we're not really being trained to see the

667
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:54,360
relationship these trees have with each other and all the species that live there and everything

668
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:57,480
that has been growing and et cetera, et cetera.

669
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:06,360
This is another example of when we are trained to just commodify life into product.

670
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:10,880
When we look at a product and we see, oh, natural, it's made out of trees from blah,

671
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,320
blah, blah, it's certified.

672
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:20,960
The more I learn, the more disappointed I get in these labels.

673
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,600
I get sad because I wish they were true.

674
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:34,360
I wish that the certifying sustainable forestry, this notepad was made from a certified sustainable

675
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:36,880
forestry and I know what that means.

676
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,160
I've seen the clear cuts.

677
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:43,960
It's not sustainable.

678
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:50,520
It really needs to happen something and I think we need to demand as consumers, unfortunately,

679
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:51,720
that's the way the economy works.

680
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:55,920
We need to demand that for more transparency within the industry.

681
01:03:55,920 --> 01:04:04,040
I mean, to use natural, but to use harvested meat, just to use these terms that makes us

682
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:10,400
forget that these animals were born, raised, and killed in these industries, for instance,

683
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:21,640
it's a very, very... It can be an efficient way to make us forget where things come from.

684
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:33,800
That products, that resources were taken to create something, even if it's natural or

685
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:41,840
more sustainable, it still took something for that product to end up there.

686
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:53,320
It's not a very popular view, especially not in a capitalist society, but to use less perhaps.

687
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:57,240
I don't think we will save the world by driving electric cars.

688
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,280
I'm sorry.

689
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:09,120
I don't think so, but I think that is what is more profitable for the system that we

690
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:12,160
live in, but it's not better for us.

691
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,040
Absolutely not.

692
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:24,800
But yeah, the word natural can be a very efficient label, for sure.

693
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:29,960
Clean also, clean, green, what else?

694
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:36,400
Non-gibble, whatever, everything, every label is... It's hard to be a consumer these days.

695
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:37,400
It's really hard.

696
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:43,880
That's why we need to put pressure on governments and companies, because individuals can do

697
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:47,840
a lot of work, but it's impossible to do all the work.

698
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:55,080
I guess they are literally capitalizing on our bio-failure, our needs to be close to

699
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:56,080
nature.

700
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:57,080
Yeah, sure.

701
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:58,080
Sure.

702
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:02,840
They have recognized that, and instead of making reforms in culture, they instead wanted

703
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:05,880
to use it to make profits for their company.

704
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:06,880
Yeah.

705
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:13,880
Instead of doing better, and instead of doing things that actually is positive for that

706
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:19,840
term, they just say, we know you care about this, but you should also not care about it.

707
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:27,680
Yes, it's a bit psychopathic.

708
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:36,440
If I had to go to the essence of your study, I get the sense that you consider psychedelics

709
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:47,680
as maybe a way to get clarity in the middle of this confusion and those lies and this

710
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:56,020
senselessness, clarity about our place in the world and about who we are.

711
01:06:56,020 --> 01:07:03,920
It goes against cultural norms and understandings of psychedelics, because we believe psychedelics,

712
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:12,280
I think most people, to be something akin to alcohol, it makes you confused and it makes

713
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:19,960
you lose your mind.

714
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:29,300
You're not a serious person if you take psychedelics, but instead you're making the point that, no,

715
01:07:29,300 --> 01:07:34,120
this will bring us clarity or this might bring us clarity.

716
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:37,080
Yeah.

717
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:45,800
I would perhaps say that psychedelics should be further explored, because this is just

718
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:46,800
the beginning.

719
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:53,640
We don't know enough to really say anything else than that, huh, we found an association.

720
01:07:53,640 --> 01:08:01,120
This might be worthy of further investigation, really, if it might be an intervention to

721
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:07,680
alter perceptions and alter human animal relations also in a long lasting way, because we don't

722
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:11,120
have any longitudinal data.

723
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:13,440
We don't have any long-term data, so we don't really know.

724
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:18,520
We just know what the participants recall.

725
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:27,320
It can be also a bit of a self-reporting bias there, that people want to feel connected.

726
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:35,320
We really need to see more studies that show, okay, so people feel an increased connection,

727
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:41,720
but does that translate into the way they live their lives in long term and how they

728
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:43,880
behave after a while?

729
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:45,520
We don't really know.

730
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:59,800
We did see some associations with animal solidarity and also with, what was it, speciesism, lower

731
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:03,840
speciesism or negative effects with speciesism.

732
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:10,200
We did see associations that showed that, okay, it can alter human animal relations,

733
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:16,640
but again, what my colleagues really want to emphasize as well, and I know they want

734
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:22,840
to, so I have to emphasize it again, is that, and I believe this as well, it is really context

735
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:27,440
dependent.

736
01:09:27,440 --> 01:09:31,840
Previous studies have seen that, for instance, if people do psychedelics in nature, that

737
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:38,320
can increase their relatedness to nature because it's made in a nature setting, et cetera,

738
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:43,840
in a more wild or non-human setting.

739
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:48,680
Nature is everywhere.

740
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:57,840
I think the core of the article is really, again, I think a lot can be seen in what we

741
01:09:57,840 --> 01:09:59,840
can say.

742
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:08,000
I think it's really interesting that we don't have enough answers about this, even despite

743
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:13,400
the fact that it is so important to change these relations that we have with animals

744
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:26,600
because they do really alter the world and health and everything, and a lot of things.

745
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:35,040
How can we not, to this day, have more studies on interventions that can alter these relations?

746
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:42,640
How can we not know more how we can efficiently try to transform these relationships into

747
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:44,160
a more positive one?

748
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:52,640
I think that is the most fundamental question in all of this, and that the psychedelic study,

749
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,120
I love discussions and articles.

750
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:59,640
I do love the discussions, and I do like the discussion in this article because there we

751
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:06,960
can talk about, okay, ego dissolution, but not lifetime classic psychedelic use was positively

752
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:10,840
associated with the desire to help animals.

753
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:12,040
What can that mean?

754
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:21,200
That might mean that it has something to do with that our coping or defense mechanisms,

755
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:29,400
for instance, cognitive dissonance, is decreased because our ego, our ego's, our boundaries

756
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:36,880
are dissolving, and we are not as inclined to have these win and lose mentality and this

757
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:40,200
kind of notion of human exceptionalism.

758
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:46,320
We don't lose our humanness by seeing that animals have their own lives, for instance,

759
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:48,520
and their own personalities, for instance.

760
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:55,600
We can re-individualize animals again because it doesn't make us less of who we are.

761
01:11:55,600 --> 01:12:00,320
Maybe we don't know, but that is one of the things that we talk about in the discussion

762
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:10,440
that I really like is how can psychedelics, as one of many interventions, help us to instead

763
01:12:10,440 --> 01:12:16,840
see the win-win situations in improving our relationship with animals and having enriched

764
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:24,040
and respectful relationship with animals and nature.

765
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:29,400
Another thing that I find really puzzling with the study and just by studying human

766
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:40,040
behavior and attitudes is that our connection with nature, what does that mean?

767
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:41,360
It can mean a lot of things.

768
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:46,560
We haven't really pinpointed what that means to every individual who has answered the survey.

769
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:54,680
It can mean to feel connected, but what does it mean, as I said, with how you live your

770
01:12:54,680 --> 01:13:03,080
life or in some ways connection can be experienced as also a separation.

771
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:07,160
I feel a connection with nature, but I'm not part of nature.

772
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:09,800
How does that work?

773
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:16,000
I'm very fascinated with these kind of mindsets that we carry and how they translate into

774
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:23,640
the world and how interventions such as psychedelics can help us get insight into these cognitive

775
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:27,840
processes that we all carry because it's very fascinating.

776
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:34,440
They seem complex.

777
01:13:34,440 --> 01:13:37,720
That is my takeaway from the article.

778
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:46,360
I do hope that more research will show more long-term answers.

779
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:51,120
Blogitudinal studies would be amazing and also looking at other interventions other

780
01:13:51,120 --> 01:14:00,160
than psychedelics, maybe just community-based also interventions would be amazing just because

781
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:05,080
we do think that the context and setting is so important.

782
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:07,880
What happens when we mix all these ingredients?

783
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:11,040
Could that alter people's mindsets?

784
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:18,200
Could that make people feel like the threshold to change their behaviors is lower, is easier,

785
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:19,200
more accessible?

786
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:26,840
That is really the question that I had and I carry forth in this article, those kind

787
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:27,840
of questions.

788
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:36,440
I'm happy you're making that point because just from anecdotes, I know that there are

789
01:14:36,440 --> 01:14:43,360
plenty of people out there who are big fans of psychedelics.

790
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:51,080
Psychedelics have made a great impact, transformative impact in their lives, but they are the opposite

791
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:56,280
of a vegan or an environmentalist in a way.

792
01:14:56,280 --> 01:15:01,200
I'm thinking here about Joe Rogan.

793
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:04,240
We're recording a podcast.

794
01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:12,000
The king of podcasting is of course Joe Rogan and he is infamous for being against vegans

795
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:16,040
and against eating a plant-based diet.

796
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:21,440
He thinks it's unhealthy and he's all about hunting.

797
01:15:21,440 --> 01:15:28,240
Yet at the same time, he talks a lot about psychedelics and how that transformed him

798
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:35,560
and made him more receptive to the world, more empathic.

799
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:42,320
He goes on and on about the importance of psychedelics in his life.

800
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:47,460
He talks about it as something spiritual.

801
01:15:47,460 --> 01:16:00,320
It's hard to understand how can someone go through such a profound experience and still

802
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:07,280
finds sadistic pleasure in hunting, killing, and eating animals.

803
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:19,120
That is something that we did discuss.

804
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:25,880
Some research suggests that you can also strengthen the connections already existing or your mindset

805
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:29,120
is very important when you go through this experience.

806
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:36,240
Even if you can feel a sense of dissolving your boundaries, again, the context seems

807
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:43,640
to be very important and also the mindset that you already carry.

808
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:49,320
As you said, maybe he had different goals.

809
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:56,600
Sometimes I think that is just typical of the way we handle things in our society.

810
01:16:56,600 --> 01:17:05,400
I read an interesting article that talked about mac-mindfulness, how we kind of integrated

811
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:08,640
yoga into the Western culture.

812
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:17,120
That has also been created some kind of mindfulness practices, some kind of quick fix.

813
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:23,480
There are so many instances for you here in places like, I meditate 20 minutes a day to

814
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:28,160
get the optimal results of this.

815
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:37,360
It's still in this kind of context of production and capitalism and hustle culture and whatever.

816
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:48,200
It feels like the context is really important.

817
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:59,320
Harps and prejudice, they come with harmful things also for the people who are seen as

818
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:01,560
having more power.

819
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:11,600
It feels like the goals that you set when you have that role as people call them alpha

820
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:16,220
males or like a toxic masculinity.

821
01:18:16,220 --> 01:18:18,360
You should be this and do that.

822
01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:25,120
It's very restrictive as well.

823
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:36,400
I wish that his experiences might have been, oh, I can be the interconnectedness of liberation

824
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:40,040
and if I'm free and they're free and we're all free.

825
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:47,800
But no, I did this and I feel more open now so I can do these and these goals.

826
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:56,280
It feels like a way of using something to move forward and it doesn't have to mean inner

827
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:57,280
work.

828
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:06,520
That might also be a really important point that maybe the reason why you consume psychedelics

829
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:13,320
is important in the first place, just also with the context.

830
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:22,000
There are people from Western culture traveling to these small villages where they have practices

831
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:27,280
and have been doing these practices, for instance, ayahuasca for many, many, many years, hundreds

832
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:28,440
of years.

833
01:19:28,440 --> 01:19:36,520
They have that rooted in their culture and their community and individuals consume it

834
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:44,120
individually and might not focus on the experience of the community, for instance.

835
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:50,560
That might be the case locally, traditionally.

836
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:58,400
What does that do with us when we still have that individual anthropocentric way of consuming

837
01:19:58,400 --> 01:19:59,400
something?

838
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:07,120
Can that really then alter our minds or is the context so important that we need to invest

839
01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:12,720
in the community first to create a safe space?

840
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:16,920
Those are questions I don't have the answer to, but I do think that they are very important.

841
01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:22,640
I do think that when we talk about psychedelics, that cultural misappropriation and also exploitation

842
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:32,760
of these cultures are important to talk about because it's a risk due to the history of

843
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:39,800
colonialism and due to the ongoing colonialism that we are seeing.

844
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:48,640
There are many, many, many things that we could talk about in terms of this article.

845
01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:57,720
Your explanation has truly helped me to understand why he behaves that way.

846
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:02,320
The mindfulness analogy speaks to me as a Buddhist.

847
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:11,280
I see the difference between the meditation that is taught by monks who have to meditate

848
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:19,720
for 10 years before having the privilege to teach meditation to students versus people

849
01:21:19,720 --> 01:21:32,000
here in the West who go through a six-month certification program to be able to host meditation

850
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:39,880
classes for anyone who wants to advance or have better mental health or something like

851
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:40,880
that.

852
01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:49,640
Then the meditation I have learned from monks is much more profound in its purpose, in its

853
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:58,200
intention, in its goals than the meditation we find on apps.

854
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:04,000
It truly speaks to me that difference.

855
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:13,640
It's weird how meditation is also a practice of ego dissolution, at least the way I see

856
01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:14,640
meditation.

857
01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:20,280
It's all about disappearing.

858
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:26,080
I find the link between that and also psychedelics interesting.

859
01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:36,280
It can be really hard for individuals to...

860
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:46,040
I think it's hard in this society because it's easy to think that our value is just

861
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:49,960
related to our productivity.

862
01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:55,520
The transformative processes that we do, like meditation, whenever the end goal is just

863
01:22:55,520 --> 01:23:00,080
to increase our productivity, what happens?

864
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:01,080
What happens with the practice?

865
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:07,640
What happens to our experience of ourselves and things like that?

866
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:10,960
It's really context dependent.

867
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:20,120
It can be hard to lose those shackles that capitalists put on us that we are just worthy

868
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:22,200
when we're productive.

869
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:29,400
Also in these age of social media, when the doing is unfocused, it can be really hard.

870
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:30,400
It's not easy.

871
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:37,120
LR Well, there was a monk who once said, I remember,

872
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:40,960
he said, you can be a mindful assassin.

873
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:42,560
It's possible.

874
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:48,480
If you're not taking the practice as a whole, it doesn't make sense.

875
01:23:48,480 --> 01:23:52,640
But yeah, here we go.

876
01:23:52,640 --> 01:24:02,520
Another practice that might promote a connection with nature is music.

877
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:09,600
When I think about the history of music, I think of, for instance, the muse.

878
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:17,320
I had the experience of visiting Greece and the Greek ruins and temples.

879
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:27,280
At some point, we visited a cave at the top of a mountain and it was surrounded with forests.

880
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:39,280
We were told that this is the cave of the muse and the muse inhabits the forests surrounding

881
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:45,520
us or something like that, if I remember correctly.

882
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:54,560
But I remember very clearly being a bit surprised by it because for me, music was synonymous

883
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:58,440
with civilization and culture.

884
01:24:58,440 --> 01:25:09,680
I was not expecting for arts and anything that has to do with it to inhabit a wild forest

885
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:12,600
and to be about a cave.

886
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:22,080
It's the link between a cave and music or poetry or whatever.

887
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:31,560
I don't know how many muses there are, but they're all like sent patrons of a different

888
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,000
art form.

889
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,440
I find it truly interesting.

890
01:25:37,440 --> 01:25:44,920
I wanted to ask you, as a musician, has it helped you make that connection with nature?

891
01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:48,520
How do you experience your art, basically?

892
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:51,560
I love this question.

893
01:25:51,560 --> 01:25:56,280
I do think growing up with music because I'm brought up in a family where music was very

894
01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:59,200
present and where we sang together.

895
01:25:59,200 --> 01:26:06,800
My mother is a music maker and my sister also sings and dances and my dad loved music.

896
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:13,560
So he was a great appreciator of music.

897
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:14,560
I do think that it helped.

898
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:19,080
It also helped, of course, in combination with living on the countryside and living

899
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:20,080
with animals.

900
01:26:20,080 --> 01:26:28,640
But I do think that music helped me because my first language was communicating through

901
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:29,640
music.

902
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:35,400
That was my first language, was music, to sing or to create sounds.

903
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:39,200
I did sing before I spoke.

904
01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:47,040
So I do think that just having that relationship with a non-verbal way of communicating really

905
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:57,480
showed me that our human words are not everything that is embedded in the word communication.

906
01:26:57,480 --> 01:26:58,760
It comes with a lot of things.

907
01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:03,880
It comes with, and just growing up performing, it's also about body language.

908
01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:07,120
Communication means so many different things.

909
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:14,920
I think music really helped me to see that and just appreciate the music of nature of

910
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:18,560
other animals and just birds singing.

911
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:20,040
I could listen for hours.

912
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:26,400
I remember when I was a kid, I was thinking, wow, that is so beautiful how they communicate.

913
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:32,560
And learning more about that helped me to dissolve the barriers between cultural and

914
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:39,040
biological diversity because I do not think that that separation is correct.

915
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:47,320
I think that whenever we are erasing biological diversity, very actual now with the mass extinction

916
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:54,240
of animals, we are also losing cultural diversity and cultural practices that we have barely

917
01:27:54,240 --> 01:28:00,760
started to know more about because we have been quite into our human exceptional ideas

918
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:03,200
of culture.

919
01:28:03,200 --> 01:28:12,320
There's whale singing and there's so many different ways of art.

920
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:17,160
And I think culture is also a biological function.

921
01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:19,320
It's just navigating through life.

922
01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:21,640
Music has helped me navigate through life.

923
01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:28,320
It helps me to integrate the feelings that I have felt and the experiences that I have

924
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:32,040
and to create something with it and to share it with other people.

925
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:37,800
And it can have a soothing effect for people that might be able to reflect themselves in

926
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:38,800
music.

927
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:40,240
I think it's a way of navigating through life.

928
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:46,200
And I do think that most, if not all, other animals do need to navigate through life.

929
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:56,200
And then, of course, I can experience music in the natural, less human-made environments

930
01:28:56,200 --> 01:28:57,200
as well.

931
01:28:57,200 --> 01:29:01,960
For instance, with trees, like scratching and things like that.

932
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:03,960
I'm like, ah, do you hear that?

933
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:04,960
That's beautiful.

934
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:06,720
And sounds, rather.

935
01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:10,840
And sometimes I sample them and I hear the music in them.

936
01:29:10,840 --> 01:29:14,000
I think music is just a collection of sounds.

937
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:19,520
And I love seeing music that way because that makes me appreciate the kind of unpolished

938
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:23,800
sounds that infiltrate my compositions, no matter if I want them to or not.

939
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:27,800
It's like, oh, that squeaky thing that came into the recording.

940
01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:31,960
And then I really love that squeaky sound because it's life.

941
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:34,920
Sounds just infiltrate your life.

942
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:36,360
And as a musician, I love that.

943
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:48,920
So yeah, I think that music really helped me to gain that perspective from early on.

944
01:29:48,920 --> 01:29:56,280
And when I make music or when I perform, I feel very integrated.

945
01:29:56,280 --> 01:30:02,480
And also when I play music, I feel that the boundaries are also dissolving.

946
01:30:02,480 --> 01:30:08,880
The way you talk about meditation, I think I said when people asked me what I wanted

947
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:13,480
to be when I grew up as a kid, I would say that I wanted to be music because it was a

948
01:30:13,480 --> 01:30:19,840
state of being to become music in a way that you're so integrated with all of the parts

949
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:22,880
that you are one.

950
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:27,600
So sometimes I feel that and I'm very lucky to experience that feeling.

951
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:33,920
I felt that yesterday when I was rehearsing for a gig, when I was playing violin, I felt

952
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:34,920
it afterwards.

953
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:43,200
Oh, I had that experience again when I was just completely integrated into the being.

954
01:30:43,200 --> 01:30:45,400
That's a beautiful answer.

955
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:53,040
And it's not a surprising one because when I listen to your music, it's very immersive.

956
01:30:53,040 --> 01:31:01,600
I feel like I'm transported by the music and the lyrics.

957
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:03,400
Do you have that goal in mind?

958
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:11,360
Do you think of the people who are going to listen to your songs when you make music or

959
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:17,440
do you just let yourself be guided by your creativity, by your muse?

960
01:31:17,440 --> 01:31:21,400
Will I sound like a terrible person if I just say no?

961
01:31:21,400 --> 01:31:24,040
I don't think of other people.

962
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:27,760
I do think about other people when I get cold feet before releasing music.

963
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:36,520
Like, oh my God, will they even find this as music or is it noise?

964
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:43,160
So interesting, that process as well from the creative stage of being into the scrutinizing

965
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:48,520
yourself and thinking about, you know, commercializing and the thing that is so personal to you is

966
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:55,920
a very interesting process in this day, modern day.

967
01:31:55,920 --> 01:32:02,200
But no, it just comes to me, really.

968
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:07,280
I sit in front of an instrument and I think it's something that has been happening in

969
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:09,560
my subconscious and then it just comes out.

970
01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:15,160
And then sometimes I do have a feeling, for instance, that something I've been thinking

971
01:32:15,160 --> 01:32:20,920
about or something I've been trying to embody and then I have walked around with it.

972
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:25,600
And then when I sit down, it usually just comes and then after a while I realize, oh,

973
01:32:25,600 --> 01:32:29,620
okay, this song is about this because now I'm experiencing this.

974
01:32:29,620 --> 01:32:38,720
And then I try to finish it with that kind of emotion.

975
01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:46,840
I say in a lot of interviews, and I think it is because I want to kind of give credit

976
01:32:46,840 --> 01:32:49,840
to my roots that I have Swedish roots.

977
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:57,600
I also have Finnish Karelian roots and Karelian is an endangered culture.

978
01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:01,880
And there's a practice in Karelian culture that is lamentation and lamentation is, you

979
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:03,640
know, it practices all over the world.

980
01:33:03,640 --> 01:33:08,080
But in Kareli, it is a female-led tradition.

981
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:19,000
And historically, it was often an older woman who was present at different occasions.

982
01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:24,480
It could be happy occasions like a wedding or it could be sad, like a funeral.

983
01:33:24,480 --> 01:33:34,040
And the mission of the lamenter was to help people to channel all their emotions in a

984
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:35,040
transition.

985
01:33:35,040 --> 01:33:41,080
And that is something that has really inspired me in my personal life, but also in my artistry

986
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:48,400
that I think that music has that role in our lives, again, navigating through life, but

987
01:33:48,400 --> 01:33:52,380
also helping us to feel all the emotions at the same time.

988
01:33:52,380 --> 01:33:54,760
Because usually it's like, is it a happy song?

989
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:57,000
Is it a sad song?

990
01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:03,880
It's usually a sad song will be into happy song or both or, you know, it's usually many

991
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:05,540
feelings at the same time.

992
01:34:05,540 --> 01:34:09,120
When I'm writing, I'm usually carrying all of these feelings and I need to give myself

993
01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:14,880
space to explore these different emotions in different languages or with different instruments

994
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:17,080
and sounds.

995
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:23,200
And of course, when I'm doing it, I'm just trying to be as present as I can and to really

996
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:29,600
just also find the joy and playfulness in it.

997
01:34:29,600 --> 01:34:37,200
But of course, I wish that my role could be a little bit like the lamentator in the way

998
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:47,920
that I can help people process different emotions and to help them kind of not deny themselves

999
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:52,920
the safe space where all of these feelings can be felt at the same time.

1000
01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:59,800
So I really wish that I create a space where people can express themselves in different

1001
01:34:59,800 --> 01:35:02,400
ways and just to just feel all the emotions.

1002
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:05,400
That is my wish.

1003
01:35:05,400 --> 01:35:14,800
But I do think that the way I can facilitate this is by just making sure that I'm being

1004
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:19,360
the most honest version of myself as I can when I create the music.

1005
01:35:19,360 --> 01:35:31,040
And I don't think about the end results and how that can be, you know, met and with different,

1006
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:34,080
you know, just positive or negative or whatever.

1007
01:35:34,080 --> 01:35:39,400
I just think about being as present as I can in that moment and giving myself that space.

1008
01:35:39,400 --> 01:35:42,760
And then I can invite other people in that safe space.

1009
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:45,760
And yeah, I hope.

1010
01:35:45,760 --> 01:35:46,760
Yeah.

1011
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:52,320
I haven't asked you yet, but have you ever tried psychedelics?

1012
01:35:52,320 --> 01:36:00,320
No, but my, I am intrigued by what would happen because when I talk about my experiences,

1013
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:07,160
my one of my co-authors of the study and the specialist in psychedelics, he's like, but

1014
01:36:07,160 --> 01:36:10,080
sometimes you sound like you're already on psychedelics.

1015
01:36:10,080 --> 01:36:21,080
So I don't really know how you would react because I talk with trees and I'm the typical

1016
01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:24,360
tree hugging stereotype in that way.

1017
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:26,680
But I'm a proud tree hugger.

1018
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:32,280
I think it's a very, it's my innate need and I accept it.

1019
01:36:32,280 --> 01:36:33,280
Same.

1020
01:36:33,280 --> 01:36:41,040
I mean, I had a chat with Emma who's known as whispers red on, on YouTube.

1021
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:48,640
She makes ASMR videos and she describes herself as a, as being hypersensitive and that sense

1022
01:36:48,640 --> 01:36:54,280
of being receptive to the world and to its sounds.

1023
01:36:54,280 --> 01:36:55,720
She reflected that.

1024
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:57,440
You know, she talked about it.

1025
01:36:57,440 --> 01:37:01,600
She also talked about it in the conversation we had.

1026
01:37:01,600 --> 01:37:13,040
And I do think there is a link between being hypersensitive and being creative, but also

1027
01:37:13,040 --> 01:37:18,520
caring for animals and having this different relation with animals.

1028
01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:19,520
Yeah.

1029
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:22,400
There might be something there.

1030
01:37:22,400 --> 01:37:30,200
And I think some studies that, or, you know, just, just argumentations that, you know,

1031
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:35,920
why would you want to care about animals or be, you know, vegan or whatever, because it,

1032
01:37:35,920 --> 01:37:39,480
you know, it just makes you depressed and you feel bad.

1033
01:37:39,480 --> 01:37:49,640
I do think that it is hard to feel good when all the time and be shippy hip, like shippy

1034
01:37:49,640 --> 01:37:58,280
happy when you know that, but there is an ongoing industry that creates suffering.

1035
01:37:58,280 --> 01:38:06,320
I, I, I, I think that it is the same with, you know, terms such as echo or climate anxiety.

1036
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:12,600
I do think that they are healthy responses to an unhealthy way of living life and, you

1037
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:16,080
know, an unhealthy way of treating the planet.

1038
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:21,720
And so I do think that some of, you know, the negative consequences of caring is healthy

1039
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:27,760
responses to something that is sick.

1040
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:34,160
So I, I think that sometimes maybe, I don't know, but maybe it can be, you know, you want

1041
01:38:34,160 --> 01:38:41,240
to show the positive things about being an animal rights activist or caring about different

1042
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:43,400
causes, but, but it's also a struggle.

1043
01:38:43,400 --> 01:38:51,280
And we, we feel sad sometimes and overwhelmed and really powerless and, and just being against

1044
01:38:51,280 --> 01:38:54,480
these powerful, powerful industries and trying to do what we can.

1045
01:38:54,480 --> 01:38:58,080
It can be, it can be really hard.

1046
01:38:58,080 --> 01:39:06,240
And I just recently, I mean, I've experienced burnout and I do, and I, and I, and I think

1047
01:39:06,240 --> 01:39:13,920
that, you know, we always carry the feeling of that we have to do more and that what we

1048
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:15,640
do is not enough, et cetera.

1049
01:39:15,640 --> 01:39:23,200
But it is really important to find the way, the best we can in an unsustainable world,

1050
01:39:23,200 --> 01:39:29,840
but to try to find sustainable ways in our activism and in our lives where we can still

1051
01:39:29,840 --> 01:39:37,680
care, but we take care of ourselves and not stigmatizing that we feel bad because it's,

1052
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:42,880
I think it's, it's a very normal and healthy response to something.

1053
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:48,800
I mean, just knowing what happens is, it's hard.

1054
01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:54,680
It, it, well, to, to be really plain, it sucks.

1055
01:39:54,680 --> 01:39:57,760
It sucks, but yeah, and it can be really hard.

1056
01:39:57,760 --> 01:40:03,040
So self-compassion is, it's also important.

1057
01:40:03,040 --> 01:40:04,400
Yeah.

1058
01:40:04,400 --> 01:40:15,280
Well, my message and the message of the podcast is that action is a way to overcome those

1059
01:40:15,280 --> 01:40:20,480
feelings to find strength in your situation.

1060
01:40:20,480 --> 01:40:21,920
Yep.

1061
01:40:21,920 --> 01:40:26,080
And because what you're describing is a sense of being overpowered.

1062
01:40:26,080 --> 01:40:35,760
Well, claim back your power, find the action you can do and go outside and do something

1063
01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:42,160
and connect with people and make a difference that will make you feel better.

1064
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:48,840
So what is your message for the people who are dealing with that, with those emotions,

1065
01:40:48,840 --> 01:40:51,880
but who stay passive?

1066
01:40:51,880 --> 01:40:52,880
They're not prepared.

1067
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:53,880
It depends.

1068
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:58,800
I mean, I can understand that if you, if you feel like it's, it's, it's really hard to

1069
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:04,800
do something because of the environment that you're in or whatever, that you might be in

1070
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:15,400
a strong opposition or I think just finding ways of finding rooms where you can express

1071
01:41:15,400 --> 01:41:21,800
yourself maybe might be a start to find the rooms where you, where you can dive into more

1072
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:32,520
topics or learn more or also I think that animal rights is not, it can be treated as

1073
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:39,120
a, as a, as a marginalized, you know, like subtopic, but it's, it's really interlinked

1074
01:41:39,120 --> 01:41:41,000
with other forms of oppression.

1075
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:47,360
And if, if it's, if it is hard where you're at to kind of do something for animal rights,

1076
01:41:47,360 --> 01:41:51,080
it's also important to just be an ally for other causes because they're interlinked.

1077
01:41:51,080 --> 01:41:57,920
So if you just do something to decrease the risk of dehumanization of any being, it is

1078
01:41:57,920 --> 01:42:02,400
really, I do think that it, it helps the world.

1079
01:42:02,400 --> 01:42:06,920
And I do also think that for us, there are active in the animal rights movement to also

1080
01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:10,920
be good allies to other movements because we, we do have the same movement.

1081
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:13,720
We are part of the same social justice movement.

1082
01:42:13,720 --> 01:42:21,000
Animals are included in the social justice movement and we're kind of one movement against

1083
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:29,800
again, the commodification and just the individualization of different bodies.

1084
01:42:29,800 --> 01:42:39,560
And maybe I think just for me, I think just being, I've come to learn with, with all the

1085
01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:45,120
years now that I've, that I've been advocating for animal rights.

1086
01:42:45,120 --> 01:42:49,240
When I've just been myself in different rooms, no matter if it's with relatives that were

1087
01:42:49,240 --> 01:42:51,240
like, Oh, this is such a trend.

1088
01:42:51,240 --> 01:42:54,960
I'm like, okay, like 15 years later.

1089
01:42:54,960 --> 01:43:00,000
No, but the thing that is a trend or whatever, just, just being who you are consistent and

1090
01:43:00,000 --> 01:43:08,760
being just standing up for what you believe in and what you buy or, or just asking a question

1091
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:10,640
like, Oh, you think that animals are like that.

1092
01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:11,640
Why do you think that?

1093
01:43:11,640 --> 01:43:16,520
Because I know the studies have shown this, just being somebody in the room that asks

1094
01:43:16,520 --> 01:43:23,920
a question that might just a little bit combat the human exceptionalism in the room, maybe

1095
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:27,480
can do, can, can start something.

1096
01:43:27,480 --> 01:43:31,360
And years later, a relative might come to you and say, do you know what?

1097
01:43:31,360 --> 01:43:34,800
I've just, I I'm only eating plant based now.

1098
01:43:34,800 --> 01:43:42,040
And that was the relative that were freely thought that you were going through a phase

1099
01:43:42,040 --> 01:43:45,280
and after a while saw, Oh, that is a way that you can live your life.

1100
01:43:45,280 --> 01:43:46,280
Okay.

1101
01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:47,280
I'm going to try.

1102
01:43:47,280 --> 01:43:52,200
And then the, you've made all of a sudden you've made the lifestyle that you've, you've

1103
01:43:52,200 --> 01:43:57,120
chosen more accessible to other people just by showing another person how to live that

1104
01:43:57,120 --> 01:43:59,880
life.

1105
01:43:59,880 --> 01:44:01,920
Other ways that you said, I think is really important.

1106
01:44:01,920 --> 01:44:09,920
I mean, just organizing with other people and finding your groups and maybe finding

1107
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:12,800
the group locally.

1108
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:15,160
I think locally is a really good way to start.

1109
01:44:15,160 --> 01:44:21,760
If everyone would organize themselves in local groups, you could do a lot of things.

1110
01:44:21,760 --> 01:44:28,760
Just just a personal example of deforestation and here in Sweden, I've, it's so easy to

1111
01:44:28,760 --> 01:44:35,200
just have anxiety over all the reports on planned clear cuts that are coming in.

1112
01:44:35,200 --> 01:44:40,040
And I just feel like, Oh my God, just an ongoing amputation just happening.

1113
01:44:40,040 --> 01:44:46,360
And the, the really tangible anxiety that I feel in those moments.

1114
01:44:46,360 --> 01:44:51,160
And when I try to avoid looking at them, that doesn't help because I still know that they're

1115
01:44:51,160 --> 01:44:52,160
happening.

1116
01:44:52,160 --> 01:44:57,280
So persistence is really can really be an act of hope, an act of a missioning in other

1117
01:44:57,280 --> 01:45:00,200
future and together that is really powerful.

1118
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:07,600
So I've organized with other local people in my hometown, just writing emails, talking

1119
01:45:07,600 --> 01:45:13,320
to professional biologists and getting help on the way, finding allies.

1120
01:45:13,320 --> 01:45:20,360
That is, that is just like you say, that is really a strategy for not getting stuck in

1121
01:45:20,360 --> 01:45:22,360
that anxiety.

1122
01:45:22,360 --> 01:45:33,620
And of course, finding ways how to express yourself that works to help you become resilient

1123
01:45:33,620 --> 01:45:38,020
in a world that, that can really break you down because of the way it is.

1124
01:45:38,020 --> 01:45:44,440
So for me, it's music or sometimes it's dancing or whatever, just finding those expressions

1125
01:45:44,440 --> 01:45:49,880
that help you to also grieve.

1126
01:45:49,880 --> 01:45:57,760
It's really important, I think to grieve because it's so much loss.

1127
01:45:57,760 --> 01:46:00,040
It's so sad.

1128
01:46:00,040 --> 01:46:08,640
And when we give ourselves permission to grieve, we also help ourselves to feel that powerful

1129
01:46:08,640 --> 01:46:16,400
joy in experiencing life the way we do with interaction with animals or other humans that

1130
01:46:16,400 --> 01:46:25,660
have, that wants to do what we want to do with goals or to combat whatever issue.

1131
01:46:25,660 --> 01:46:31,940
So I do think, I agree with you, finding ways to organize yourself and, but also finding

1132
01:46:31,940 --> 01:46:41,360
ways to rest and express yourself individually and collectively in ways where you see that

1133
01:46:41,360 --> 01:46:48,680
there's a lot of emotions that come with transformation and struggle and trying to create something

1134
01:46:48,680 --> 01:46:51,940
resilient.

1135
01:46:51,940 --> 01:46:55,480
Who wins when we break down and we can't do anything?

1136
01:46:55,480 --> 01:46:59,000
So, status quo.

1137
01:46:59,000 --> 01:47:01,680
So it's important.

1138
01:47:01,680 --> 01:47:09,520
And I mean, I've myself experienced burnout, so I'm not an expert at all.

1139
01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:11,680
I don't live as I learn.

1140
01:47:11,680 --> 01:47:18,680
I haven't always, but that's also how I know that it's hard.

1141
01:47:18,680 --> 01:47:21,120
Yeah.

1142
01:47:21,120 --> 01:47:30,960
I never heard about grieving the loss of animals before.

1143
01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:41,480
And I truly admire that, that you went and taught about that because I definitely thought

1144
01:47:41,480 --> 01:47:50,440
that we should have something like a monument remembering all of these, all of those animals,

1145
01:47:50,440 --> 01:47:52,360
the billions of them.

1146
01:47:52,360 --> 01:47:58,360
And we can't even wrap our mind around that number.

1147
01:47:58,360 --> 01:48:03,760
And we should at least have some kind of monument to their memory.

1148
01:48:03,760 --> 01:48:10,200
But you might be on something here when you say, when you talk about grieving, because

1149
01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:22,480
maybe lots of vegans are not so much experiencing being powerless, but being in grief of all

1150
01:48:22,480 --> 01:48:26,280
of that loss that nobody sees.

1151
01:48:26,280 --> 01:48:32,000
So truly it's powerful stuff here.

1152
01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:35,840
Yeah.

1153
01:48:35,840 --> 01:48:40,640
I personally experienced grief.

1154
01:48:40,640 --> 01:48:52,760
I lost my dad a couple of years ago and just seeing how society, due to his illness and

1155
01:48:52,760 --> 01:49:03,320
his age and other isms that you could attach to him, how I felt that my grief wasn't as

1156
01:49:03,320 --> 01:49:13,560
acute or like, I really understood what I've learned throughout the years when it comes

1157
01:49:13,560 --> 01:49:15,640
to processes of dehumanization.

1158
01:49:15,640 --> 01:49:22,720
And I'm really grateful for that knowledge because it helped me to kind of be prepared

1159
01:49:22,720 --> 01:49:30,960
for those personal experiences of grief and experience that kind of grief with your family

1160
01:49:30,960 --> 01:49:37,320
member and then experiencing grief on a collective level.

1161
01:49:37,320 --> 01:49:43,480
And also grief of seeing how your natural surrounding, who was one of your safety nets

1162
01:49:43,480 --> 01:49:49,520
in keeping yourself sane during this period of time, was destroyed, really made me realize

1163
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:58,760
the importance of what you're saying, that our grief is seen and how we are given the

1164
01:49:58,760 --> 01:50:00,880
space to grieve.

1165
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:11,600
And in society, we might not be given that time to grieve or that space.

1166
01:50:11,600 --> 01:50:16,120
And depending on what we grieve or who we grieve, society might be more or less willing

1167
01:50:16,120 --> 01:50:19,240
to acknowledge that grief.

1168
01:50:19,240 --> 01:50:25,840
So it's very important to create communities and have people around you that identifies

1169
01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:30,800
and sees your grief and says, I understand that you are grieving.

1170
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:38,840
And if you don't have that, well, at least to give yourself the permission to grieve

1171
01:50:38,840 --> 01:50:48,560
and finding ways how to connect with your grieving body through different ways of experiencing

1172
01:50:48,560 --> 01:50:53,360
yourself to dance or whatever has really helped me.

1173
01:50:53,360 --> 01:50:58,240
And I do think we talk too little.

1174
01:50:58,240 --> 01:51:04,280
I do think we need to have a conversation about grief when it comes to climate change,

1175
01:51:04,280 --> 01:51:05,280
for instance.

1176
01:51:05,280 --> 01:51:12,680
I do think that, I mean, I'm working on an instrumental album right now that is really

1177
01:51:12,680 --> 01:51:20,000
about that, that is about instrumental music, about grieving processes related to climate

1178
01:51:20,000 --> 01:51:32,960
change and just how are we supposed to deal with the transformation that we are facing,

1179
01:51:32,960 --> 01:51:37,040
that we're having to prepare ourselves for.

1180
01:51:37,040 --> 01:51:42,440
It can be also a positive transformation, just like when we talked about lamentation

1181
01:51:42,440 --> 01:51:47,160
and how we need to get help to process different emotions in transformation.

1182
01:51:47,160 --> 01:51:51,000
It doesn't matter if the transformation is a good one.

1183
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:54,760
We will still probably need to grieve.

1184
01:51:54,760 --> 01:51:58,800
So for instance, if we transform our relationship with animals to a more positive one, we will

1185
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:06,640
still have to grieve what we lost, all the relationships that we lost because we didn't

1186
01:52:06,640 --> 01:52:09,800
acknowledge the relationships that were relationships.

1187
01:52:09,800 --> 01:52:13,280
We just thought they were business trades or whatever.

1188
01:52:13,280 --> 01:52:14,680
We just thought they were objects.

1189
01:52:14,680 --> 01:52:23,680
So I do think that we need tools as communities, as societies, as individuals to kind of process

1190
01:52:23,680 --> 01:52:24,680
all these emotions.

1191
01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:31,440
And culture and music can be one tool, but also just creating cultures and politics that

1192
01:52:31,440 --> 01:52:38,720
acknowledge that when our surroundings change or when something happens in our lives, we

1193
01:52:38,720 --> 01:52:48,200
need to grieve and we need to have the contexts where we can process these emotions.

1194
01:52:48,200 --> 01:52:57,480
And if these are destroyed or disrespected in a way, of course that hurts us.

1195
01:52:57,480 --> 01:53:03,560
So I am so happy that you jumped on the grief train because that is a train that I've been

1196
01:53:03,560 --> 01:53:08,280
on for a lot of years now.

1197
01:53:08,280 --> 01:53:19,000
And I appreciate that you were the one bringing this up in a way because we went there.

1198
01:53:19,000 --> 01:53:20,000
Amazing.

1199
01:53:20,000 --> 01:53:25,840
And thank you for sharing your insights.

1200
01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:32,920
This discussion reminds me of a concept that I truly love.

1201
01:53:32,920 --> 01:53:39,920
It's about spirituality because that's the underlying theme of what we're talking about

1202
01:53:39,920 --> 01:53:42,280
here, spirituality.

1203
01:53:42,280 --> 01:53:49,440
And it says that spirituality doesn't have to be vertical about a pantheon of gods and

1204
01:53:49,440 --> 01:53:51,960
angels and stuff like that.

1205
01:53:51,960 --> 01:53:55,480
It can also be horizontal.

1206
01:53:55,480 --> 01:54:02,040
We can have a horizontal spirituality in the sense of building, again, connections and

1207
01:54:02,040 --> 01:54:09,640
relationships with our community, but also here with nature and animals.

1208
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:24,320
And I truly love that reference image of horizontal versus vertical spirituality.

1209
01:54:24,320 --> 01:54:34,840
I want to ask, feel free to answer however you want, but do you find that there is any

1210
01:54:34,840 --> 01:54:46,520
vertical spirituality to our understanding of nature and our relationships with animals?

1211
01:54:46,520 --> 01:54:58,600
As I interpret your question, you can let me know if I didn't understand you correctly.

1212
01:54:58,600 --> 01:55:10,160
But in many ways, the way we look at animals is really based on power dynamics.

1213
01:55:10,160 --> 01:55:18,280
It really stems from the agricultural and domestication of the early agricultural revolution

1214
01:55:18,280 --> 01:55:22,400
when it comes to domestication of animals happened at the same time as the major religions

1215
01:55:22,400 --> 01:55:23,400
came in.

1216
01:55:23,400 --> 01:55:25,480
So from what I understand it.

1217
01:55:25,480 --> 01:55:33,840
So I do believe that religion was a way of rationalizing how to treat animals and how

1218
01:55:33,840 --> 01:55:37,160
to domesticate animals and how to create an animal industry.

1219
01:55:37,160 --> 01:55:47,720
And I do think that seeing humans as godlike can also be a way of encouraging human exceptionalism

1220
01:55:47,720 --> 01:55:48,840
in a way.

1221
01:55:48,840 --> 01:55:59,000
And I mean, I am, personally speaking, I've never, I'd heard to a certain religion brought

1222
01:55:59,000 --> 01:56:06,840
up in a household quite the contrary, where my mother has been studying theology.

1223
01:56:06,840 --> 01:56:08,400
It's called theologi in Swedish.

1224
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:16,040
I don't know if it's the right word in English, but you know, the history of goddesses and

1225
01:56:16,040 --> 01:56:20,160
those kind of things.

1226
01:56:20,160 --> 01:56:29,200
And we have a famous poet in Finland called Eva Kilpi, who has written, she's 97 or something

1227
01:56:29,200 --> 01:56:30,600
now, I think.

1228
01:56:30,600 --> 01:56:37,400
And she wrote a whole book with the theme of nature and animals called Animalia.

1229
01:56:37,400 --> 01:56:41,240
And if I remember correctly, yeah.

1230
01:56:41,240 --> 01:56:46,640
And she wrote that if you look into an animal's eye, you will see God or the Almighty.

1231
01:56:46,640 --> 01:56:49,920
And that was very controversial for that time.

1232
01:56:49,920 --> 01:56:57,440
But I do agree with her in a way, even though I don't, you know, I talk with the God or

1233
01:56:57,440 --> 01:56:58,440
whatever.

1234
01:56:58,440 --> 01:57:05,880
I do think that the way I see it is that we live in a world where we're striving towards

1235
01:57:05,880 --> 01:57:11,960
monoculture, where everything is, you know, you see trees in line, it's a monoculture.

1236
01:57:11,960 --> 01:57:19,680
The way we've created our agricultural productions, the way we've done, the way we've created

1237
01:57:19,680 --> 01:57:22,480
our religions is now very monocultural.

1238
01:57:22,480 --> 01:57:37,400
And for me, I think a more variety or many gods or many practices will be quite nice.

1239
01:57:37,400 --> 01:57:43,280
I don't know, the horizontal view that you said, I like that because that reminded me

1240
01:57:43,280 --> 01:57:44,440
of the Eva Kilpi poem.

1241
01:57:44,440 --> 01:57:51,640
It reminded me that at least you can believe in God, but also be part of it somehow.

1242
01:57:51,640 --> 01:57:52,960
That's the connection thing again.

1243
01:57:52,960 --> 01:57:55,880
Do you feel connected to something and still separated from it?

1244
01:57:55,880 --> 01:57:59,320
What is that connection?

1245
01:57:59,320 --> 01:58:04,400
Instead of connection, I would like to say relationship, because that requires us to

1246
01:58:04,400 --> 01:58:10,040
place ourselves like in the room or in something that is an active ongoing thing where we have

1247
01:58:10,040 --> 01:58:15,080
to be, even if it's a negative relationship or positive, we place ourselves easier in

1248
01:58:15,080 --> 01:58:18,200
the room when we talk about the word relationship.

1249
01:58:18,200 --> 01:58:24,600
Relationship can be something that we kind of connect into server, logging out.

1250
01:58:24,600 --> 01:58:29,320
Our relationship requires something from us and can also give us something more.

1251
01:58:29,320 --> 01:58:38,120
So I like the term relationship and relations and how we can just experience life through

1252
01:58:38,120 --> 01:58:47,240
relationships and having role models or having an awe, an awe for something can be, doesn't

1253
01:58:47,240 --> 01:58:58,200
have to come with power and balances and things like that.

1254
01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:05,480
I like the horizontal view, but I'm biased because I'm brought up that way.

1255
01:59:05,480 --> 01:59:11,160
I do understand the role of religious communities and I'm absolutely not, again, I understand

1256
01:59:11,160 --> 01:59:18,400
I have pretty much the same sentiment for some kind of universe and interconnection

1257
01:59:18,400 --> 01:59:21,160
and interrelations.

1258
01:59:21,160 --> 01:59:26,200
I have that notion, but I mean, sure, we're talking about spirituality once again.

1259
01:59:26,200 --> 01:59:31,920
It's maybe the term is spirituality.

1260
01:59:31,920 --> 01:59:35,400
I like the way you put it more.

1261
01:59:35,400 --> 01:59:44,520
I think you should just erase my answer, just like your question asks also the answer.

1262
01:59:44,520 --> 01:59:47,840
Can we do that?

1263
01:59:47,840 --> 01:59:49,200
Your answer was great.

1264
01:59:49,200 --> 01:59:51,200
I don't know why you say that.

1265
01:59:51,200 --> 01:59:53,840
I should feel it was so poignant.

1266
01:59:53,840 --> 01:59:54,840
It was there.

1267
01:59:54,840 --> 01:59:56,960
But yeah, I agree.

1268
01:59:56,960 --> 01:59:58,880
I should have just said I agree.

1269
01:59:58,880 --> 02:00:01,320
No, it was good.

1270
02:00:01,320 --> 02:00:13,400
I truly like the thing you said about seeing God in the eyes of animals.

1271
02:00:13,400 --> 02:00:22,640
I think this will be shocking to hear for a listener who is not vegan and for whom animals

1272
02:00:22,640 --> 02:00:29,400
have no presence and absolutely no personhood.

1273
02:00:29,400 --> 02:00:35,440
But I think if you accept that animals are more than what we have been brought up to

1274
02:00:35,440 --> 02:00:45,680
believe they are, I think why not consider them and integrate them in our religious practices

1275
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:48,120
and our spirituality?

1276
02:00:48,120 --> 02:00:49,840
Yeah.

1277
02:00:49,840 --> 02:00:57,760
And maybe just like making a full circle, maybe that is what we have done and humans have

1278
02:00:57,760 --> 02:01:07,440
done and all thinkers from thousands of years ago said that you could see the God in the

1279
02:01:07,440 --> 02:01:09,040
animal eyes.

1280
02:01:09,040 --> 02:01:15,200
But as a culture, we have just not highlighted those people because we know that there have

1281
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:19,840
been acts of resistance towards the way animals are being treated throughout history.

1282
02:01:19,840 --> 02:01:26,000
And we talked about it before with the academia and why animals are not as highlighted or

1283
02:01:26,000 --> 02:01:33,040
a marginalized subject in different fields and etc.

1284
02:01:33,040 --> 02:01:38,400
It's where we place our focus and how we tell the story of humankind.

1285
02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:48,440
And it's good if we raise more positive examples of what it might mean to take the animal perspective

1286
02:01:48,440 --> 02:01:50,520
if you say like that.

1287
02:01:50,520 --> 02:01:57,960
And how many of us, how many have been before us and how we're part of something bigger.

1288
02:01:57,960 --> 02:02:03,920
We tend to also maybe do the human exceptionalism or the exceptionalism with ourselves.

1289
02:02:03,920 --> 02:02:06,240
Like I am the exception.

1290
02:02:06,240 --> 02:02:16,440
And in some way, sure, we are because we are marginalized in the way that we see and want

1291
02:02:16,440 --> 02:02:17,560
to treat animals.

1292
02:02:17,560 --> 02:02:19,640
But in other way, we're not exceptional.

1293
02:02:19,640 --> 02:02:27,320
We're just part of a bigger movement, a resistance movement, also a larger social justice movement

1294
02:02:27,320 --> 02:02:30,000
with other related issues.

1295
02:02:30,000 --> 02:02:36,000
So I think that that can be empowering as well to remember that throughout history,

1296
02:02:36,000 --> 02:02:39,400
there have been voices that have said things that were talked about things that maybe you

1297
02:02:39,400 --> 02:02:43,640
and I are talking about right now and that we should highlight them because we humans

1298
02:02:43,640 --> 02:02:51,640
are continuously writing our own history and who gets to write that history.

1299
02:02:51,640 --> 02:02:56,120
And that is also like an act of resistance and trying to combat the way that that is

1300
02:02:56,120 --> 02:03:01,960
being written, it's being written humans as superior and whatever.

1301
02:03:01,960 --> 02:03:12,520
So I think that that can also be a fun conversation to find the role models of today and yesterday

1302
02:03:12,520 --> 02:03:14,600
and thousand years before that.

1303
02:03:14,600 --> 02:03:21,280
And yeah, at the beginning of the conversation, you talked about how this was liberating for

1304
02:03:21,280 --> 02:03:26,680
you to discover the animal rights fight.

1305
02:03:26,680 --> 02:03:34,960
And this is what psychedelics are about, liberating your mind.

1306
02:03:34,960 --> 02:03:44,400
And I think it could be the theme of our conversation, liberating ourselves from all of those dogmas,

1307
02:03:44,400 --> 02:03:55,720
cultural beliefs and things that are just burdening us and working to harm us.

1308
02:03:55,720 --> 02:04:01,200
So Ellen, I have been talking with you for about two hours now.

1309
02:04:01,200 --> 02:04:07,840
I think it's the longest podcast episode I ever recorded.

1310
02:04:07,840 --> 02:04:08,840
Have a fun time in the post-production.

1311
02:04:08,840 --> 02:04:14,480
Well, I think most of it was incredible.

1312
02:04:14,480 --> 02:04:24,520
I don't think that I will have to edit lots of things in what was said.

1313
02:04:24,520 --> 02:04:26,920
I hope listeners think the same way.

1314
02:04:26,920 --> 02:04:31,680
I feel like, oh my God, why is it stopping?

1315
02:04:31,680 --> 02:04:32,680
No, but thank you.

1316
02:04:32,680 --> 02:04:35,680
It was a really interesting discussion.

1317
02:04:35,680 --> 02:04:41,080
Can I just ask you something before we go?

1318
02:04:41,080 --> 02:04:43,200
And here is half an hour more.

1319
02:04:43,200 --> 02:04:44,200
No, I'm kidding.

1320
02:04:44,200 --> 02:04:50,400
No, but you said something about how you've experienced that some terms are being used

1321
02:04:50,400 --> 02:04:55,480
within the movement or when it comes to speciesism and those kind of things.

1322
02:04:55,480 --> 02:05:02,440
And to be fair, I have not been, because I've moved a bit away from research and human animal

1323
02:05:02,440 --> 02:05:11,440
studies towards more culture and the music now and focusing on the forest issue here

1324
02:05:11,440 --> 02:05:12,440
in Sweden.

1325
02:05:12,440 --> 02:05:14,880
So I feel a bit unpolished on that area now.

1326
02:05:14,880 --> 02:05:21,440
So could you kind of develop a bit more what you meant with those kind of terms that you

1327
02:05:21,440 --> 02:05:23,320
have experienced and those kind of things?

1328
02:05:23,320 --> 02:05:27,080
Because that stuck with me.

1329
02:05:27,080 --> 02:05:28,080
What terms?

1330
02:05:28,080 --> 02:05:29,080
I'm not remembering.

1331
02:05:29,080 --> 02:05:36,120
We're talking about how speciesism is used and how it's kind of a shallow way of seeing

1332
02:05:36,120 --> 02:05:37,120
things.

1333
02:05:37,120 --> 02:05:42,080
Or you were talking about kind of going deeper into certain things and kind of nuancing in

1334
02:05:42,080 --> 02:05:43,080
different terms.

1335
02:05:43,080 --> 02:05:48,600
Yes, I think we had that conversation before I started recording.

1336
02:05:48,600 --> 02:05:54,720
I'll develop that now because I do want to know.

1337
02:05:54,720 --> 02:06:05,640
Well I was thinking about how we often in the public discourse around veganism, we tend

1338
02:06:05,640 --> 02:06:13,720
to take a kind of a more superficial way, but more simplistic way.

1339
02:06:13,720 --> 02:06:24,080
I think that this vegan movement and the ideas we're putting forth are radical in many ways,

1340
02:06:24,080 --> 02:06:30,480
going against centuries of traditions.

1341
02:06:30,480 --> 02:06:42,360
But we are not maybe fully conscious of the implications of this philosophy.

1342
02:06:42,360 --> 02:06:51,400
Or maybe we simplify veganism because we are on this activism mode all of the time, always

1343
02:06:51,400 --> 02:06:56,640
speaking to non-vegans instead of speaking to vegans.

1344
02:06:56,640 --> 02:07:08,800
So maybe less conversations between ourselves and more conversations directed to non-vegans.

1345
02:07:08,800 --> 02:07:18,000
And if I had to give maybe concrete examples of that, I would say we use veganism and we

1346
02:07:18,000 --> 02:07:21,960
often mean plant-based diet.

1347
02:07:21,960 --> 02:07:29,280
So we reduce sometimes veganism to a diet and we concentrate on the health and lifestyle

1348
02:07:29,280 --> 02:07:30,360
aspect.

1349
02:07:30,360 --> 02:07:33,240
So yeah, I'm a bit vague right now.

1350
02:07:33,240 --> 02:07:35,280
I don't know if I'm clear.

1351
02:07:35,280 --> 02:07:36,280
Yeah.

1352
02:07:36,280 --> 02:07:39,000
No, but I see what you mean.

1353
02:07:39,000 --> 02:07:46,720
And of course there's a value in simplifying depending on the kind of target group or messaging

1354
02:07:46,720 --> 02:07:56,240
and trying to make it simple for people to understand or what can I do to do this or

1355
02:07:56,240 --> 02:07:57,520
for this result and blah, blah.

1356
02:07:57,520 --> 02:08:04,220
But as you say, as we talked about before with kind of like internal or external solutions

1357
02:08:04,220 --> 02:08:09,840
to problems when it comes to like climate change or whatever, that a lot of these things

1358
02:08:09,840 --> 02:08:17,080
happen inside of us, these processes, and we manifest them in our lives.

1359
02:08:17,080 --> 02:08:18,960
But we're not born with them.

1360
02:08:18,960 --> 02:08:20,240
They come from somewhere.

1361
02:08:20,240 --> 02:08:26,540
We are being fed by these kind of social cultural ideas of, for instance, human-animal relations

1362
02:08:26,540 --> 02:08:29,240
and how they should look like.

1363
02:08:29,240 --> 02:08:41,560
And the foundation of that is really questions like who has worth, why, who is part of nature,

1364
02:08:41,560 --> 02:08:48,000
who's part of culture, who is a body, who's a mind, who is worth, those kind of questions.

1365
02:08:48,000 --> 02:08:55,640
And that is why I liked research in the first place because I can just ask a lot of questions.

1366
02:08:55,640 --> 02:09:04,760
But that is also why I like just being, having conversations because you, usually the questions,

1367
02:09:04,760 --> 02:09:08,000
I think now is the time for questions.

1368
02:09:08,000 --> 02:09:15,120
How can we create, how can we create interventions that help us transform the way we treat animals

1369
02:09:15,120 --> 02:09:23,320
and like our surroundings in a positive way?

1370
02:09:23,320 --> 02:09:35,080
How can we connect these oppressive mechanisms in, through words, for example, like dehumanization

1371
02:09:35,080 --> 02:09:38,920
and how can we see our blind spots?

1372
02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:45,560
I think just by asking ourselves questions, we have done something.

1373
02:09:45,560 --> 02:09:50,640
We have, and that's why research love questions because we have realized that we might not

1374
02:09:50,640 --> 02:09:56,240
know everything, but we can just move on from there and try to gather as much information

1375
02:09:56,240 --> 02:10:03,680
as possible and most importantly, embody what that means to ask these questions and embody

1376
02:10:03,680 --> 02:10:05,800
the answers that we find.

1377
02:10:05,800 --> 02:10:09,400
I completely agree.

1378
02:10:09,400 --> 02:10:18,960
I think we have realized so much, but we're still reacting to those realizations, not

1379
02:10:18,960 --> 02:10:26,040
having fully appreciated the depth of those realizations and what they mean for our cultures

1380
02:10:26,040 --> 02:10:28,040
and for ourselves.

1381
02:10:28,040 --> 02:10:29,040
Yeah.

1382
02:10:29,040 --> 02:10:37,280
And we have all of these technical means to kind of quickly answer like some questions

1383
02:10:37,280 --> 02:10:41,960
that are more external, fix this and fix that and how can we do this?

1384
02:10:41,960 --> 02:10:46,640
But we've seen, as we've talked about, we've seen the consequences of technology in its

1385
02:10:46,640 --> 02:10:49,360
worst light.

1386
02:10:49,360 --> 02:10:55,180
I mean, one solution to decreasing the risk of pandemics is to just keep animals more

1387
02:10:55,180 --> 02:11:00,920
compact in a really closed space.

1388
02:11:00,920 --> 02:11:03,600
But is that a solution that we want?

1389
02:11:03,600 --> 02:11:11,800
Is that something that we would face and say, oh, sounds appropriate?

1390
02:11:11,800 --> 02:11:16,040
Or would our cognitive dissonance be like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding?

1391
02:11:16,040 --> 02:11:22,920
We need to say that they're harvested and it's a nice environment with a big TV where

1392
02:11:22,920 --> 02:11:23,920
they can see other animals.

1393
02:11:23,920 --> 02:11:29,200
I don't know how we would rationalize that, but you know what I mean.

1394
02:11:29,200 --> 02:11:35,040
And these other questions that have to do with who we are I think are the most important

1395
02:11:35,040 --> 02:11:39,280
now in moving forward.

1396
02:11:39,280 --> 02:11:44,480
And again, as you said, it's also a part of spirituality.

1397
02:11:44,480 --> 02:11:48,160
Who am I?

1398
02:11:48,160 --> 02:11:49,160
What do I find important?

1399
02:11:49,160 --> 02:11:53,400
How can I support other people?

1400
02:11:53,400 --> 02:12:02,240
What can I do to create the world that I envision and create the spaces that we need to dare

1401
02:12:02,240 --> 02:12:07,480
ourselves to envision that another world is possible?

1402
02:12:07,480 --> 02:12:12,800
It's very important to not restrict ourselves and our potential.

1403
02:12:12,800 --> 02:12:25,120
And I want to give an example that is close to my heart of one of those questions that

1404
02:12:25,120 --> 02:12:27,920
you're referring to.

1405
02:12:27,920 --> 02:12:33,520
The very first episode of this podcast was a conversation with Dr. Jens Vult, who is

1406
02:12:33,520 --> 02:12:37,040
a primate communication expert.

1407
02:12:37,040 --> 02:12:45,200
And the very first question I asked her was, do chimpanzees truly understand human language

1408
02:12:45,200 --> 02:12:47,640
when they communicate with sign language?

1409
02:12:47,640 --> 02:12:52,760
We have seen those famous videos of chimpanzees using sign language.

1410
02:12:52,760 --> 02:12:59,040
Or is it just like a conditioning trick, like a parrot repeating phrases and words?

1411
02:12:59,040 --> 02:13:06,000
And she said, no, we know that they understand the sense, the meaning of the word, and that

1412
02:13:06,000 --> 02:13:09,360
they're truly using human language.

1413
02:13:09,360 --> 02:13:12,200
And then she said, it's interesting.

1414
02:13:12,200 --> 02:13:17,600
It remains so controversial because it rattles the foundation of who we are as a species.

1415
02:13:17,600 --> 02:13:18,600
Yeah.

1416
02:13:18,600 --> 02:13:22,600
I mean, we have the information, but we don't know what to do with it.

1417
02:13:22,600 --> 02:13:23,600
Exactly.

1418
02:13:23,600 --> 02:13:25,160
We don't want to embody it.

1419
02:13:25,160 --> 02:13:26,160
Yes.

1420
02:13:26,160 --> 02:13:27,760
Chimpanzees can use human language.

1421
02:13:27,760 --> 02:13:29,480
Now what?

1422
02:13:29,480 --> 02:13:37,680
That's why I love the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and just also using humor to help

1423
02:13:37,680 --> 02:13:43,560
us humans see ourselves from the outside and see the pride that we might have the way we

1424
02:13:43,560 --> 02:13:45,080
see ourselves.

1425
02:13:45,080 --> 02:13:46,520
Because it really helps.

1426
02:13:46,520 --> 02:13:55,240
I mean, just taking that example, for instance, as aliens coming and just looking at us and

1427
02:13:55,240 --> 02:14:02,800
how we are doing things and just they're super smart or AI, whatever the beings might be,

1428
02:14:02,800 --> 02:14:07,320
and just seeing ourselves from the outside, just like in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the

1429
02:14:07,320 --> 02:14:12,400
Galaxy where the animals are like, no, we knew what was going on.

1430
02:14:12,400 --> 02:14:15,080
I love that so much.

1431
02:14:15,080 --> 02:14:16,720
I think it does something with us.

1432
02:14:16,720 --> 02:14:21,880
I think that's why I do think that culture has a huge role to play in this because it

1433
02:14:21,880 --> 02:14:29,760
helps us in our imagination to also envision another world, a world that is very much here

1434
02:14:29,760 --> 02:14:32,000
already because we live in an interconnected world.

1435
02:14:32,000 --> 02:14:39,120
But our role might be different in this new envisioned world or our feelings or our mindsets.

1436
02:14:39,120 --> 02:14:48,040
But just helping us envision these worlds and help us envision, it's just like how

1437
02:14:48,040 --> 02:14:51,320
humans might be perceived by other animals.

1438
02:14:51,320 --> 02:14:58,120
Or to quote Franz de Waal, are we smart enough to know how smart animals are?

1439
02:14:58,120 --> 02:14:59,120
Are we?

1440
02:14:59,120 --> 02:15:05,320
Or maybe we are smart enough, but maybe we just don't, as you say, we're not ready.

1441
02:15:05,320 --> 02:15:12,880
Because it would just, again, then our human exceptionalistic argumentations would not

1442
02:15:12,880 --> 02:15:15,080
work anymore.

1443
02:15:15,080 --> 02:15:17,240
And wouldn't that be a bliss?

1444
02:15:17,240 --> 02:15:20,520
I look forward to the day.

1445
02:15:20,520 --> 02:15:25,360
Well, I think it's a great way to end the conversation.

1446
02:15:25,360 --> 02:15:32,160
Ellen, thank you so much for having accepted my invitation and for having answered my question.

1447
02:15:32,160 --> 02:15:36,920
What an interesting and fascinating and inspiring conversation we had.

1448
02:15:36,920 --> 02:15:41,960
I will certainly be thinking about it in the coming days.

1449
02:15:41,960 --> 02:15:43,720
So Ellen, thank you again.

1450
02:15:43,720 --> 02:15:45,280
Thank you so much.

1451
02:15:45,280 --> 02:15:47,200
It was great.

1452
02:15:47,200 --> 02:15:49,080
Thank you everyone for listening.

1453
02:15:49,080 --> 02:15:53,440
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

1454
02:15:53,440 --> 02:15:56,600
Let's encourage more people to take action.

1455
02:15:56,600 --> 02:16:24,520
Again, thank you so much for caring, and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.