Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report.
Today I am sharing with you the story of Martin.
Martin is vegan, just like you and me.
One day he thought, I want to do more for the animals and so he picked up his guitar
and started making clever, witty, funny and enjoyable songs about veganism and the animal
rights cause.
He streams his music online and all the profits he gets from them go to animal rights organizations,
sanctuaries and shelters.
Martin welcome to the show and thank you so much for being here.
Thank you so much Ryan, it's really nice to be here.
How are you?
I'm great.
Well, I'm dealing with the flu and I think you're also dealing with the flu.
Yeah, I have a little bit of a sore throat but it's okay.
Yeah, listeners will forgive our voice quality.
Before we start, we were supposed to record an episode a few days ago but we had to cancel
because you learned about the death of Kirsten, who was your friend and a fellow animal rights
activist.
In the introduction, I played Heroes of Our Time, which was her favorite song of yours,
her favorite Vistopia song.
I wanted to take some time to mark her memory and her contribution to making this world
better for non-human animals.
So Martin, would you like to tell us a few words about her and maybe why she liked Heroes
of Our Time?
Yes, I'll try to, realizing that this becomes emotional for me, but I'll try to do my best.
I got to know Kirsten through the animal rights movement here in Sweden.
We worked together on the board for Animal Save Sweden and we worked together there for
a year and we met up on a couple of occasions and did some actual...
See, I'm losing my words here because this is really emotional.
We met up a couple of times for vigils and for outreach and she was really warm and caring
soul, really passionate and joyful person.
It's really not only sad, but it's really weird that such an amazing person just suddenly
is gone.
Apart from her obvious contributions directly to the animal rights movement, she has meant
a lot for me and for the making and keeping up with the music.
She was one of the few persons who really took the time to express how much the music
meant to her and not just like, it's great that you're doing this, but more like I listened
to this song and it really touched me deep and these lines of your lyrics, it really
spoke to me and it means so much to me that you are doing this.
She really was very vocal about it and expressed it in a way and a manner that touched me in
return deeply, so that's something that will carry with me for the rest of my life.
I dare to say that her favorite song of mine was Heroes of Our Time because I still have...
I took a screen picture of her beautiful message where she underlined how much it meant to
her and that it gave her more energy to keep on fighting for the animals and that it meant
a lot to her to feel that someone saw and could feel with the struggle, which is the
whole point of that song.
For me, I had the idea of becoming an animal rights activist for probably three, four,
maybe even five years before I managed to take the step.
I really want people to know...
Okay, not just people.
I really want animal rights activists to know that they are seen, they are heard, and they
are loved, appreciated for the passion, the time, the money because people will go to
really passionate activists.
They will really spend time, energy, and money to go the whole way through to be there for
the animals.
People go way, way further in the distance doing stuff than I do.
I will always admire people for that.
That was really the reason why I wrote this song because I felt that people need...
I want people to know how much this is appreciated.
I know that I'm not alone feeling that what all the activists are doing are amazing, even
though the big rabble of non-vegans is non-appreciative, of course, because they don't want to know
what they're contributing to.
But anyway, yeah, that's the reason for the song.
Shastin was really one of the persons so far acknowledging this and expressing it.
After her passing, it's a different thing listening to the song today, but it means
even more to me that I managed to write it and that I know that she was appreciative
of it.
So thank you, Martin, for sharing your feelings and memories of Kristen.
It's appreciated.
And thank you for your song, which I do agree it is very energetic.
And I like how it goes with how I see activism and taking action.
It's something energetic.
It's something where you go and you do your best.
And that's the kind of vibe I take from the song.
So online, you call yourself Vistopia.
And my first question for you is, what does Vistopia mean?
The word is, well, I believe it's like, people are more familiar with the word dystopia,
right?
It's like that horrible future that may come to pass.
It's a possible bad future.
But when the psychotherapist and author Claire Mann coined the term Vistopia, she did so
because she realized that vegans are already experiencing dystopia, like here and now.
And the reason why they do that, the reason why we are experiencing dystopia is because
of all the cruelty that we see, hear and feel on behalf of the animals on an everyday basis.
So he coined that term and in short, it means the anguish of being vegan in a non-vegan
world.
One guest described it as, it feels like everyone is a cannibal and you're the only sane one
and not eating flesh and cadavers and not being morbid like that.
It's a strange feeling and distressing feeling.
And I know some vegans suffer a lot from it, like they lose sleep.
I even read about some vegans suffering from post-traumatic stress, PTSD.
And I was wondering if you had to struggle with that feeling and what did you do to feel
better about it?
It's definitely something I struggle with and I dare to say that it's something I struggle
with on an everyday basis.
Once you know the horrors of the animal industry, it doesn't go away.
And the more you invest yourself in speaking up for the animals, the more you will hear
all the excuses and the more you will learn, the more you will see of the horrors and the
more it will affect you.
And for me, this is a constant gnawing and heavy feeling.
And what do I do to feel better?
Well, one of the things was actually to look into, okay, what can I do?
Because I felt so badly, I need to do something.
I cannot just sit here and watch.
I need to become even more active for the animals, for my own sake.
So from my point of view, it's kind of like an egoistic stance.
It was like, I can't take this.
I can't handle this insane and horrifying feelings of dark feelings.
I need to do more for the animals to lighten the load.
So starting Vistopia was really one of the things that I landed in.
What can I do?
And music has been a part of my life for a long, long time.
I never thought I would take the step to write anything that would have to do with veganism
or animal rights.
But suddenly it was just something that was so obvious that it's something I know, it's
something I'm pretty good at.
And I need to express this.
I need to get it out of my system.
I need to put it into words.
And I need to share those words with people, preferably with people that doesn't understand
me.
To share it with non-vegans.
I realized though, down the line so far, that my audience is mainly the vegan people and
the animal rights activists.
And that's fine.
There's another reason for Vistopia, and we will come to that later.
But for me, like handling the pressure of being in this everyday Vistopia, it was something
I just had to do.
Yeah, it doesn't surprise me that most of your audience are vegans because we crave
to see veganism and animal rights represented in the arts.
I want to see movies portraying what we're going through.
I want to hear music that reflects our feelings because I don't see it.
It's like we're ignored by culture.
I think there's truly a hunger for more art around veganism.
Yeah, I totally agree.
There's definitely a hunger for it.
The more people can express themselves in whatever manner or way they are comfortable,
the more we will spread the word to the wider public, to the non-vegans as well.
The more footprints in the name of veganism we will make.
Eventually it will be unavoidable because I still meet people today that are kind of
like, oh, you're talking about that now again.
So like closing, shutting down their ears and on with the narrow minded side.
We need more of that.
If anyone listening, you are a person doing arts, dancing, painting, poetry, whatever,
see if there is a way you can express yourself and use your voice for the animals.
Art is an amazing tool.
I want to get back to your comment on feeling better about Vistopia.
I absolutely love your answer.
Every week I see comments online, posts by vegans saying, you know, it's too much.
I feel so stressed and anxious about what's happening.
I feel so bad and negative about it.
Can you help me feel better?
And I'm always commenting, do something, take action, go out.
And I feel like I'm the only one making that comment.
I look at other comments, they're useful, but I feel like the real answer to that Vistopia
is action.
There is nothing more efficient.
I totally agree with you and I get like goosebumps when you say that.
From my point of view, I struggled, I was vegan for almost 10 years before I became
an animal rights activist.
Like I said earlier, I had that thought of becoming an activist for years.
The one thing that really helped me was to become active.
Not only did I find a place where I could express what I felt, I also found the people
that totally got me.
That felt the same.
I could just be in the same atmosphere and I didn't need to say anything.
I could just come there and take a sign and I can stand with that sign for two hours,
not saying a single word.
And I could see people passing by and how they, in no way they could avoid seeing the
message we put out there.
And this is what most people don't get.
They're like, exactly what you said there.
I don't know what I can do.
Do something.
And people feel, but I'm not comfortable talking with people.
No, you don't have to.
Go up with your local activists group and just stand there with a sign.
Just imagine, imagine if you're like 50 people and you have 40 of them standing with signs.
No one passing by can avoid that.
You will be constantly sowing seeds in their minds.
And imagine if that number was like a hundred, a hundred and fifty or even more, because
people took the step and engaged in activism just by being there.
We would see so much happening, but instead people more like, oh, this is so tough and
they close.
And I totally get that because I had those days as well.
But it's liberating to take that step, to find that group.
Like I said, they know you.
If you come there and say, but I'm not comfortable in talking, that's all right.
Just be a part of it.
Those groups will afterwards also like they will have a cup of coffee or go and have some
food.
And then you can talk just with your new found friends because they will definitely become
new friends of yours.
And you will realize that you are not alone.
Because that is also one of the heavy burdens and feelings with this Topia is that we feel
very alone, which is a crushing feeling in itself.
So take Ryan's word, everybody go out and activate yourself.
You could do nothing better for yourself.
I'm sure of it.
And for the animals.
And you will also strengthen your fellow activists because the more people joining, the more
they feel that yes, something is happening and they will get energy of people coming
into the group as well.
So there's only benefits, benefits, benefits.
I was asked, doing this podcast, isn't it a bit depressing?
And no, it's the opposite.
I have the honor and privilege of talking with vegans who are doing something every
week and seeing the passion in other people is just, I feel hopeful about the future.
I feel when I see people doing something about the horrible things happening out there and
fighting this evil, it brings me so much optimism, positivity and like I said, hopefulness.
Totally agree.
Amazing.
So so far, eight singles have been released.
No, nine.
Nine.
Yes.
Nine.
We were set to record before the ninth single were released, right?
Yes.
I was reading my notes and my notes are outdated.
Yeah, there are nine singles that have been released and your newest one, you know, I
am a big fan.
Honestly, I just burst out laughing.
But let's talk about it maybe later.
But there is a total of 10 unreleased tracks.
Well, now nine that we can look forward to.
So when is the last one going to be released?
You mean like the upcoming or the last one was released?
The upcoming one.
The upcoming one will be released at the end of April and I'll take my cam and bring forth
my calendar here so I can give you the actual date of release.
It will be the 22nd of April and why so?
Well, the 22nd of April is Earth Day and the song released on this day is called There
Is No Planet B.
Wonderful.
And yes, and how do we stay connected with you, with Vistopia, in order to get the updates
and the released songs first?
Yeah, I'm definitely most active on Instagram.
So if you connect with Vistopia official, you will get all the updates there.
But if you choose to like go to your preferred music streaming service, if it's Spotify,
Apple, Deezer, Amazon, iTunes, whatever, and you choose to subscribe or follow or whatever
that specific button will be called on that service, you will get a ping when the new
music is released.
But I would love to say also that for me it would mean a lot if you would follow my Patreon
because you don't necessarily have to pay to be a part of Patreon.
You can follow for free and the more people joining Patreon for free, I will be better
on releasing posts that anyone can read.
But then of course if anyone has the possibility and would really like to support the music,
that would mean a lot if you are possible to do that.
So those are the ways to stay connected and to see all the updates.
Of course all the goodies, the behind the scenes and all that is of course for the Patreon
people paying for the membership.
Wonderful and listeners will find links in the description below.
Like we mentioned before, there isn't a lot of songs around veganism.
I guess there are a lot of well-known famous singers and musicians who are vegan like Billie
Eilish or Moby.
But in terms of songs, maybe the only famous song about veganism, about animal rights that
I know is Meat is Murder from The Smith.
Why do you think that animal rights songs are less appealing to the public?
Well for the very same reason that people don't really want to have the discussion,
they want to stay in the dark.
I know that is a cliché to say, but that's really the case.
When I first became vegan, people were really eagerly asking me questions.
Why did you choose veganism?
What's up with that?
And all these different questions.
But the more people talked to me, they realized that I had answers for every escape route
they chose.
And eventually people stopped asking me questions.
And people will, to my experience, they will only ask questions as long as they have some
kind of hope to get away with it.
They will ask a question and then they will hope that you don't have a really good answer.
Or if you have an answer, they hope in some way, maybe it's subconscious, I don't know,
but it seems like people hope that they will have a comeback.
So you have an answer and then they have a comeback.
And the more you are invested in spending time talking about veganism, you will hear
the same excuses over and over again.
What about lions?
What about survival?
And nothing really has any value.
It's like, yeah, there's no value.
They try to sprinkle their seeds, but they will always just end up on the rock.
There's no fertile soils for their excuses.
And the more time you spend, I'm going to get back to engaging in activism, the more
time you engage in activism, the more you will learn to answer people's questions.
And the more you will learn in how wrong they are and how you can answer their questions
in a polite manner, in a calm manner, and just show that, well, I'm sorry, but you're
wrong.
And people are very, very strongly about, well, that's your opinion.
No.
Yes.
Well, yes, it's my opinion, but it's also a well-known fact.
It's scientifically proven and it's like medical study proven.
And so, yes, I don't know.
I kind of lose track of where we were, where we're heading.
Well, you know, I asked about why there aren't any songs, more songs about veganism and animal
rights.
I mean, we-
Sorry, I'm going to cut you short there.
Go ahead.
Sorry.
I think this is the fact, because I will totally love it if Brian Adams, famous vegan, would
make an animal rights song, like a vegan song.
But he will probably not do that because he would lose a lot of followers.
It's his life.
It's his livelihood.
That's what he does for a living and I totally love this because he came to Sweden a few
years ago and he was set to play on a specific arena.
And he said that if you're going to serve animal-based products, I won't play.
And oh my God, all hell broke loose.
And people like, oh, I'm not going to go to that concert if I can't eat my hamburger
and if I can eat my hot dog.
And I was like, come on, just have your freaking hot dog at home if that's so horrible.
And so I really went into that forum and commenting like, yeah, Brian, that's amazing.
And so in that aspect, he's really a voice for the animals, but still, I'm still waiting
for that song to come out.
I'm still waiting for Brian May, the guitarist of Queen, to make it like an animal rights
song.
The only, I wouldn't say the only, but the person that comes to mind, one of the few,
I could say that, that people and artists, musicians, that hasn't got like an animal
rights focus mainly from their main artistry is Aliza White-Gloats from Arch Enemy.
But apart, aside from Arch Enemy, she's all in.
And she has actually done a couple of songs.
I know one for sure, I would believe that there probably is one or two more apart from
that one.
But way too few vegan musicians make these kind of songs.
And that is what we need.
People who can stand, like remain and stand their ground.
But we'll see.
Or they can sing one of your songs if they don't want to produce one of their own.
That's an alternative.
Yes, that's a nice idea.
And I also want to make the comment that even though there aren't many songs on animal rights
or veganism, music, like literature, like all forms of art will exploit animals as if
they were metaphors, as if they were images or to express a certain feeling or even an
insult.
So the animals are here, but it feels like it's just a reflection of the kind of animal
oppression and exploitation that is happening in the world.
We're just using them as a way to make poetry or something, which I find a bit uncomfortable.
I don't know if you have a position on using metaphors or insults that, like telling someone
you're a pig or something.
What do you think about that?
Do you think it's okay to use language that way?
No, I don't think it's okay.
But it is very deeply embedded in our culture.
It's something that we learned from young age that this is what you say.
This is how you say it and this is what you say.
And you're referring to this as like two birds with one stone.
In Sweden we say like two flies in one smash.
But it's really the same thing.
And I love that people are intentionally changing these expressions, which we all should take
part in.
It's like feeding two birds with one scone.
I love that one.
I don't know who said it, but I just love it.
It's amazing.
It's pretty much the same word-wise when you look at the letters, but it's completely different
meaning.
It's more compassionate and kind, way more, obviously.
And I think that we should just try to become aware of what words we are choosing.
I commented on a post just this past week when a girl wrote that the animals, this animal,
it is, but no, no, no, no, no.
Animals is not a it.
It's a he or a she and or they.
We need to start thinking how we express ourselves.
Because only by simply by changing our words, we will help people start thinking.
Because they will be like, what did you say there?
It was like, yeah, I said it because I meant it, because that's how it is.
I think it's extremely important.
And it could be also like a fun thing, for this example, feed two birds with one scone.
It's beautiful and it's fun.
Yeah, but don't feed real birds with scones.
Just grains, no bread.
Grains and seeds.
Yes.
They love that stuff.
Yeah, but it's difficult.
I still surprise myself using it for animal, but I use it for babies, you know, human babies.
And there is one term I just can't wrap my head around.
It's using non-human animals at every intersection of I feel like it's it just makes communication
difficult to add that non-human animal every time.
One part of it, I think it's because we are it's new to us.
So we aren't really perhaps that comfortable about using these terms.
But I also believe there are more important occasions when we definitely should use that
phrasing.
And I think it's something we need if we just like if we reflect upon what we're saying
and what we're doing as we go along, we can learn from it.
And with that, we can hopefully start like a different interaction with people.
But I understand where you're coming from there.
Absolutely.
You were talking about the reaction people had of that singer, what was his name, who
did not want to serve non-vegan food at his concert.
Brian Adams.
Yes.
What was the reaction?
What is the reaction to your songs from a non-vegan perspective?
My words with Vistopia is still pretty young.
Well, I've been doing it for more than two years, so it's not too young.
But you know, it's still like it's music appealing to be vegans, it's music appealing to animal
rights activists.
And apart from that, I don't know how many non-vegans that really takes the time to listen.
I do share it with people.
Like the other day, I did share my newest single, because it's a punk rock song.
I shared it with a friend, an old friend, with whom I started my first band and was
a punk rock band, so it was obviously the right thing to share this song with him.
And he had listened and he said he really liked the song, but he didn't talk anything
about the meaning of the words or the name of the song, Small Dicks Club, which is a
metaphor for how people act.
Because I feel that if you feel the need to go out and kill innocent, beautiful animals,
you are struggling with something.
And it could very well be that you have a complex.
But yeah, regarding, yeah, sorry.
No if you had something to say, go ahead.
There are people that I know isn't vegan that had commented anything, which they are few.
When I released the first single, Bereaved and Breast, I have a close friend that wrote
to me on Messenger and said that, I listened to your song, but then I had to Google this
term, dystopia.
And now I understand you way better.
And I was like, yes, that's a win.
Of course, I would feel very much better about things if he said that I did Google this term
and it was really upsetting to know that shit, you're struggling with this stuff.
And I got me thinking and I need to go vegan.
That would have been the preferred outcome of that conversation.
But still, that he took the time to look up the term, that's a yes.
But then another one is like, had a true internet troll coming on board my Instagram and she
was commenting on one of my posts where I had posted sitting playing with the acoustic
guitar and singing, oh, my ears are bleeding.
This is the most horrible stuff that I have ever heard.
And I was like, yeah, but sorry, I can't take you seriously.
You're just trying to hit me where it hurts.
And I cannot even begin to air.
So I was just writing that.
Thank you for upping my algorithms.
Keep writing.
I want to talk about the different songs that you have released.
And let's start with the newest one, Small Dicks Club.
I think it's a wonderful way of addressing the masculinity aspect of that people associate
with meat and hunting.
I'm a podcaster and the biggest podcast in the world is the Joe Rogan show.
And he is always talking about meat and hunting and how veganism is unhealthy.
It makes listening to him impossible.
So I want to hear your thoughts about why people associate hunting and eating meat with
masculinity.
I think it's because, you know, like the reptile brain, people are still like stuck in the
Stone Age and still believe that the man should go out there and take care of the family and
bring home the food while the missus is standing by the stove and cooking food.
That's the manly stuff.
And we really need to change and get away from that because it not only is it may have
been that way once upon a time, but it's ages ago.
And we're striving towards a more equal society where the salaries are more like the same.
It took a long time, but women can write and vote.
I mean, vote nowadays.
And write.
Yeah, they weren't allowed in school.
And that was not too long ago either.
It's horrible how the history has.
I was born in North Africa and the generation of my grandparents, you know, they were not
accepted or embraced in school.
So I have two grandmothers who grew up illiterate.
So yeah, it's not that far away, historically speaking.
So we're still in this weird mindset that caring for the family.
Well, that's a good thing, but it's not a manly thing.
It's a sane thing.
Anyone who cares for their family want to make sure that the family is doing good, of
course.
Right?
But how could anyone actually believe that killing innocent animals when there's no need
for it?
When the medical data and the scientific data is speaking against it, they'll believe that,
well, this makes me a very manly man.
I don't know.
People just were stuck.
Well, I feel like it has something to do with strength.
You know, the associates being strong with being masculine and you want to test your
strength and so you're going hunting and you're eating meat because that will make you grow
muscles.
And I feel like when I look at someone going hunting, I don't feel like you're testing
your strength.
I don't feel like you're bullying the animal because the power inequality is so great.
You have this weapon and you have a coat and you're well fed and this poor deer or any
animals you're pursuing don't have half of the benefits that you're having against you.
And hunting, modern day hunting is absolutely horrifying.
Some hunters will put cameras on trees to follow their prey.
They have night goggles and it's not a fair fight here.
It's just-
And they call it a sport.
It's like, I don't remember his surname now, but Seth something.
He said that people consider it to be a sport, but a sport is when both teams play on equal
terms, you know.
So there's nothing.
There's nothing even close to being a sport.
It's just like you said, it's a horrible, murderous agenda and it's pure cowardice.
If you want to show your strength, go for an Ironman race or at least a Thriot one,
you know, or join the World's Strongest Man Challenge.
Then you can show your strength.
You will never impress me by holding a gun and shooting at someone.
That's pure cowardice.
I want to talk about a term that you use.
It's the title of one of your songs, but I've also heard it in the lyrics of another
song and it's Conscience Debated.
You're the one who have coined this word and it's my new favorite term, honestly.
So what's the definition of Conscience Debated?
First, thank you for acknowledging that.
I want to give some credit to my late dad because he brought us up really doing all
the daddy jokes, you know, playing with words.
So if I have something after him, it's definitely that enjoying to play with words.
It was actually a term that I came up with probably a year or year and a half before
I actually wrote the song, but I found it to be a funny combination.
Like from Conscience Debated from two words, conscience, being conscious of your own actions
like, or even also the quite similar one to have a conscience or being conscious about,
okay, I did something and I feel bad about it.
So it's being aware of what you are doing.
But then you have debated, which comes from constipated, which is when you look at the
mind, I tend to feel very strongly and very often that most people are constipated in
their minds.
They're like, well, you know, I was taught this in school and they said that drinking
milk is good for the bones.
It must be that way.
My mom said so, my dad said so, and the school said so, and I'm a grown man.
Come on.
And people be like, well, you know, you have to be a man that thinks for yourself.
Yeah.
How about you join in and do that?
Most people are just like struggling in the same, what do you say, bread on the same treadmill,
not getting anywhere and still claiming that they actually know something or figured something
out, but they're still on the breast milk or they're still torturing animals and say
they are the most and the biggest animal lover in the whole world.
And it doesn't make sense.
And that, and because of those things, it's very important that we are loud.
We should never fall into the trap and become that good silent vegan.
Because the only thing they want that is to be left alone so they can have their burger
without thinking of the pain and suffering that they are causing.
So conscious depated is really like a conscious depated, a constipated mind that helps you
keep acting in the same way and doing the same cycle over and over again, ignoring all
the science, ignoring all the suffering and just keep doing what is easy to you.
I'm obsessed with that word.
I also like the fact that it has a connection with the food you're eating, constipation,
so it makes it hard to evacuate things because of your diet.
Who does that?
Well I also like the fact that it's kind of seen like a medical condition and I often
wonder is there any hope for some people to be convinced or influenced and do you think
that there are some people who are beyond the reach of the vegan movement that there
is no hope to convince them whatsoever?
Well definitely that's the case, but I could never be the person to pinpoint another person
and say that this is a hopeless case because what I've learned through life is that even
the people that wouldn't be on your list of the first hundred people that might go vegan
one day or even try vegetarian food or whatever, like just doing a gradual change to something
better, those are the people that actually did something.
They weren't on that list.
So people can definitely be reached, but the interesting and the key question is what will
trigger that person?
And I mean that like triggering in a good way.
What will be the turning of the page or what do you say?
Make the transition.
Yes and that will be the hard part because I believe that the key is a different key
for different people.
I met a wonderful guy on the first animal rights camp I went to, he's very engaged in
like social justice movement, but he's a vegan and he also serves that fight.
And he told that he was trying for years to convince his mother to take up veganism, but
he didn't reach her until one day when he brought up what happens to the calves in the
dairy industry, what happens to that family.
And that was the key word for her because in her view, the most important thing in life
is family.
So when he kind of put that word into the context of everything, the context of veganism,
like well you are destroying this family.
He was like what?
And something happened.
And he said that I should have known, but sometimes it's so obvious that you can't
see it and you're stuck in all the things you do know that you really do want to say
to people, but that might not just be the key for that person.
And I believe that's the hard part because if you listen to, I'm sorry, I've been listening
to other postcards, sorry.
And I listened to like farmers becoming vegan, hunters becoming vegan.
So it's a matter of perception.
It's a matter of that specific event in time, that action, that phrase, that key word or
whatever.
And we won't ever know until it's there.
I'm asking this because in your song protein deficiency blues, you sing the following lyrics.
He said, would you be so kind to consider to choose what I choose?
And then he just signed and delivered and thus I was stuck with the protein deficiency
blues.
And I didn't know, but up ahead there was a crowd, a wise man held his speech.
He said, would you be so kind to consider to choose what I choose?
And then he just signed and delivered and thus I was stuck with the protein deficiency
blues.
And I got the feeling that for you, veganism was not really a choice, that you had to become
vegan.
And so I asked myself, did I have a choice at being vegan or was it just my natural inclination?
Because I know I would not have chosen any other path.
I could not deal with my guilt of not doing the right thing.
So yeah, that's why I ask, do we really choose to become vegan or does veganism choose us?
I love the philosophy of that question because I think we could do an episode just with that
one question and it would be amazing for my part.
And yeah, I think that once I was presented with the right information, it was like, no,
I don't have a choice.
I only have one choice and that is to become vegan.
And it was like from that instance.
And the thing was, I tried to paint the scenario of what actually happened.
I didn't meet that man in real life, but I watched the lecture of Gary Diorovsky, the
best speech you'll ever hear.
And it was like, okay, so someone recommended me to see this.
Someone recommended me to watch and listen to this.
So I played it and I was nailed to that speech.
And when he was done, I was like, I have nothing to say.
I have only one thing to do.
And that is from now on, from this very instance, I am vegan.
So I think that we are brought up in a specific way and we learn a behavior.
But when we are presented with the right information, we could do the right choice.
And there are so many great memes, but there's a beautiful one.
And there's a reason why you bring your children to pick apples, but not to visit a slaughterhouse.
Yeah, because the choice would become obvious.
They would never want to eat meat again.
But you are not ready to confront yourself with all that pain and suffering.
So you will just push them on into the same lane as you were brought up into.
And then meat eaters have the stomach to say that, well, you know, you're brainwashing
your children and you're forcing them to choose this lifestyle.
Well, you know, from the families I know, the vegan ones are the only really sane ones
because those are the only families where they have been truthful with the children
and letting them know this is what happens.
This is why we choose to eat seeds, berries, fruits, greens, and all that wonderful, colorful,
tasty plant-based stuff.
Because the obvious answer is that the children don't want to eat animals.
Most of them don't want to do that.
And those who do want to do that, they are doing it, I believe, solely to make their
parents proud.
That's the case for me.
I was, I didn't really enjoy fishing when I was younger and I didn't do it at home.
We have this beautiful, in the village where I grew up, this beautiful river and it's,
there's a lot of salmon in that one.
I never did any fishing there.
But when we went on vacations, it was like the thing to do, to go out to the sea and
do some deep sea fishing.
I never really enjoyed it in a way, in the sense that once you got that fish on the hook
and into the boat, I could never kill that fish.
But I was very much responsible for getting it into the boat.
And my parents, they were so happy.
Yeah, you caught a fish.
And that was my reward.
And because of that, I fooled myself that what I did was something good, if they were
happy.
But if they would have said to me, okay, what really happened here?
Did we put this fish back in the sea?
Or should we just leave them alone in the first place?
I'd probably be like, well, I don't want to hurt them.
Because I stopped eating like fish when I was three or four years old.
Because I saw fishes in aquariums and I was like, wow, these are beautiful creatures and
I love them swimming around.
So it was really, that is cognitive dissonance, right?
Which most people seem to struggle with.
They do something, but then they have an explanation to righteous that very thing.
And when you confront them about, okay, so how does this add up?
No, I don't want to have this conversation.
Maybe I lost track of the answer here.
But this was my association to the whole question.
Well, that's podcasting for you.
You know, you start, well, that's a normal conversation.
You know?
Well, I want to mention the impact that you have made not only by inspiring vegans, but
also by the money you have raised.
You have raised more than $2,980 and you have decided to use that money to finance the activities
of various charities.
So first of all, thank you.
What a wonderful thing.
And can you tell us a bit about the charities that you have chosen to help maybe some highlights
of what they are?
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, there's like this charity.
I was a monthly donor, like part of my salary for more than 20 years to this organization
in Sweden translated would be called like animal testing without animal testing, like
science without animal testing.
And they are doing some amazing work.
And they also point out that like 90% of the tests that are successful on animals, we can
just imagine the horrifying numbers that is unsuccessful.
But 90% of the amount that is unsuccessful on are successful on animals is not transferable
to humans.
So we really need to change that.
I supported them for many years and once I started Vistopia, I withdrew all the support
that I had just to kind of build up some sort of economy.
But then I actually started giving away more money than I ever gave before because good
things were happening.
So that is one of the bigger ones, science without animal testing, directly translated.
But there are several different ones, a big inspiration.
They have a lot of beautiful and horrible videos, Toronto Cowsave.
So they have been an inspiration for, it's actually the cow on the picture of Breathe
and Breast is from a video by them.
And so I've given them some money.
I try to do like this thing when people support the making of the music, when I have like
musician joining in and they play for free.
I ask them like, okay, so in your name, can I donate the sum of money to a cause?
I have several ideas, but if you have something that you are passionate about, please let
me know and we can give the money to them.
So obviously, Stop From Home For Cats has been one of them and we have like a really
beautiful sanctuary for senior dogs, like 10 years and older in the south of Sweden.
It's called the Black Dog Foundation.
They have been the receiver for gifts and many more.
You could go on to my Instagram and see the three pinned posts.
And if you read through them, you will see a long list of causes, organizations that
have received money from Vistopia.
And you can also read about this if you look on Spotify, like about the artist.
Make the answer a bit shorter.
Wonderful and I like the name Black Dog.
Usually we use Black Dog to symbolize depression.
And so I like that they have taken that name.
I don't know if it's on purpose, but it is on purpose, but not for that specific cause.
Sandra, who is the founder of Black Dog Foundation, she knows that the most undesired dog is a
black dog.
A black dog will be the last one to be chosen at a shelter.
And so she takes them all in.
And that was the name for her organization for that very reason.
She wants to highlight the neglect.
I know that.
She's doing an amazing job.
She has so many dogs on her grounds and they have different struggles, many of them.
But they are just an amazing crowd of dogs.
A pack of dogs, right?
Not a crowd, a pack of dogs.
It's incredible that the meaning of a black dog has so much power on the actual flesh,
blood and flesh dog.
I did not know that in shelters, dogs who are black had less luck getting adopted.
I know that in many Muslim countries, black dogs are also considered cursed or something.
They're a bad omen.
And there is of course the meaning that it's depression.
A black dog symbolizes depression.
But real life black dogs have nothing to do with the meanings we stick on them and the
labels we put on them and the stories we tell ourselves about them.
It's crazy.
They will have so much love to give if they're only given the chance, for sure.
Amazing.
So maybe now is a good time to stop the recording and end the conversation.
But before that, did you have anything more to add to the conversation?
I don't know if I think I mentioned it, but please do follow Vistopia on Instagram, Spotify,
YouTube, Facebook, whatever social media or streaming service you use.
Because the more people we can reach, the more people who play the music, the more funds
we can raise together and the more funds I can give to the animals.
So follow, but more than follow, stream the music.
Just stream away.
Put it on repeat.
I don't care if you listen to the music actively or it's just in the background or it's just
going on repeat because you know it will be in funds and the funds will be given to aid
animals in need.
And that's the whole idea with this project.
So it's for the animals.
Amazing.
And follow the example of Martin, Keir Hobie and you.
Something constructive, something positive to make the world a better place.
Take your passion for music or for anything else and see how you can make it into something
that helps and makes a difference in the lives of many.
And yeah, thank you.
Thank you so much, Martin.
This was a really pleasant conversation and yeah, an inspiring one too.
So thank you for your time and thank you for having accepted my invitation.
Thank you, Ryan.
It was a pleasure to talk with you.
So looking forward to see what you're up to next.
Thank you everyone for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.
Let's encourage more people to take action.
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.