1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,640 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report. 2 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,600 Today I am sharing with you the story of Martin. 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,180 Martin is vegan, just like you and me. 4 00:00:21,180 --> 00:00:25,880 One day he thought, I want to do more for the animals and so he picked up his guitar 5 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:32,600 and started making clever, witty, funny and enjoyable songs about veganism and the animal 6 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:33,840 rights cause. 7 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:40,120 He streams his music online and all the profits he gets from them go to animal rights organizations, 8 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,720 sanctuaries and shelters. 9 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,080 Martin welcome to the show and thank you so much for being here. 10 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:50,320 Thank you so much Ryan, it's really nice to be here. 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:51,920 How are you? 12 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:52,920 I'm great. 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,840 Well, I'm dealing with the flu and I think you're also dealing with the flu. 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,760 Yeah, I have a little bit of a sore throat but it's okay. 15 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:10,080 Yeah, listeners will forgive our voice quality. 16 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:16,240 Before we start, we were supposed to record an episode a few days ago but we had to cancel 17 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:21,840 because you learned about the death of Kirsten, who was your friend and a fellow animal rights 18 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,360 activist. 19 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,800 In the introduction, I played Heroes of Our Time, which was her favorite song of yours, 20 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,320 her favorite Vistopia song. 21 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:38,600 I wanted to take some time to mark her memory and her contribution to making this world 22 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,120 better for non-human animals. 23 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:46,480 So Martin, would you like to tell us a few words about her and maybe why she liked Heroes 24 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:47,480 of Our Time? 25 00:01:47,480 --> 00:02:02,960 Yes, I'll try to, realizing that this becomes emotional for me, but I'll try to do my best. 26 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:11,320 I got to know Kirsten through the animal rights movement here in Sweden. 27 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:23,040 We worked together on the board for Animal Save Sweden and we worked together there for 28 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:29,560 a year and we met up on a couple of occasions and did some actual... 29 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:38,760 See, I'm losing my words here because this is really emotional. 30 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:55,320 We met up a couple of times for vigils and for outreach and she was really warm and caring 31 00:02:55,320 --> 00:03:02,960 soul, really passionate and joyful person. 32 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:14,440 It's really not only sad, but it's really weird that such an amazing person just suddenly 33 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:22,520 is gone. 34 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:31,200 Apart from her obvious contributions directly to the animal rights movement, she has meant 35 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:42,440 a lot for me and for the making and keeping up with the music. 36 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:50,760 She was one of the few persons who really took the time to express how much the music 37 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:59,520 meant to her and not just like, it's great that you're doing this, but more like I listened 38 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:06,640 to this song and it really touched me deep and these lines of your lyrics, it really 39 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:12,400 spoke to me and it means so much to me that you are doing this. 40 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:21,460 She really was very vocal about it and expressed it in a way and a manner that touched me in 41 00:04:21,460 --> 00:04:32,280 return deeply, so that's something that will carry with me for the rest of my life. 42 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:45,880 I dare to say that her favorite song of mine was Heroes of Our Time because I still have... 43 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:57,080 I took a screen picture of her beautiful message where she underlined how much it meant to 44 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:06,880 her and that it gave her more energy to keep on fighting for the animals and that it meant 45 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:17,280 a lot to her to feel that someone saw and could feel with the struggle, which is the 46 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:22,560 whole point of that song. 47 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:32,880 For me, I had the idea of becoming an animal rights activist for probably three, four, 48 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:44,240 maybe even five years before I managed to take the step. 49 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,240 I really want people to know... 50 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,720 Okay, not just people. 51 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:56,000 I really want animal rights activists to know that they are seen, they are heard, and they 52 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:10,400 are loved, appreciated for the passion, the time, the money because people will go to 53 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,200 really passionate activists. 54 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:22,720 They will really spend time, energy, and money to go the whole way through to be there for 55 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,060 the animals. 56 00:06:25,060 --> 00:06:34,440 People go way, way further in the distance doing stuff than I do. 57 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,680 I will always admire people for that. 58 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:44,760 That was really the reason why I wrote this song because I felt that people need... 59 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,760 I want people to know how much this is appreciated. 60 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:58,320 I know that I'm not alone feeling that what all the activists are doing are amazing, even 61 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:09,440 though the big rabble of non-vegans is non-appreciative, of course, because they don't want to know 62 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,800 what they're contributing to. 63 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,720 But anyway, yeah, that's the reason for the song. 64 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:27,040 Shastin was really one of the persons so far acknowledging this and expressing it. 65 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:38,100 After her passing, it's a different thing listening to the song today, but it means 66 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:44,720 even more to me that I managed to write it and that I know that she was appreciative 67 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:45,720 of it. 68 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:53,000 So thank you, Martin, for sharing your feelings and memories of Kristen. 69 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,120 It's appreciated. 70 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:00,600 And thank you for your song, which I do agree it is very energetic. 71 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:09,480 And I like how it goes with how I see activism and taking action. 72 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:10,980 It's something energetic. 73 00:08:10,980 --> 00:08:17,640 It's something where you go and you do your best. 74 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,520 And that's the kind of vibe I take from the song. 75 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,840 So online, you call yourself Vistopia. 76 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:32,600 And my first question for you is, what does Vistopia mean? 77 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:42,640 The word is, well, I believe it's like, people are more familiar with the word dystopia, 78 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:43,640 right? 79 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:49,720 It's like that horrible future that may come to pass. 80 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,600 It's a possible bad future. 81 00:08:53,600 --> 00:09:03,200 But when the psychotherapist and author Claire Mann coined the term Vistopia, she did so 82 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:14,880 because she realized that vegans are already experiencing dystopia, like here and now. 83 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:21,560 And the reason why they do that, the reason why we are experiencing dystopia is because 84 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:33,720 of all the cruelty that we see, hear and feel on behalf of the animals on an everyday basis. 85 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:41,600 So he coined that term and in short, it means the anguish of being vegan in a non-vegan 86 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,280 world. 87 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:50,280 One guest described it as, it feels like everyone is a cannibal and you're the only sane one 88 00:09:50,280 --> 00:10:01,160 and not eating flesh and cadavers and not being morbid like that. 89 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,080 It's a strange feeling and distressing feeling. 90 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:11,040 And I know some vegans suffer a lot from it, like they lose sleep. 91 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:21,280 I even read about some vegans suffering from post-traumatic stress, PTSD. 92 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:30,480 And I was wondering if you had to struggle with that feeling and what did you do to feel 93 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,960 better about it? 94 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:40,240 It's definitely something I struggle with and I dare to say that it's something I struggle 95 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:44,520 with on an everyday basis. 96 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:50,800 Once you know the horrors of the animal industry, it doesn't go away. 97 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:56,880 And the more you invest yourself in speaking up for the animals, the more you will hear 98 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:06,920 all the excuses and the more you will learn, the more you will see of the horrors and the 99 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,840 more it will affect you. 100 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:26,520 And for me, this is a constant gnawing and heavy feeling. 101 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:32,280 And what do I do to feel better? 102 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:40,360 Well, one of the things was actually to look into, okay, what can I do? 103 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,160 Because I felt so badly, I need to do something. 104 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,760 I cannot just sit here and watch. 105 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:56,440 I need to become even more active for the animals, for my own sake. 106 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:02,160 So from my point of view, it's kind of like an egoistic stance. 107 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,760 It was like, I can't take this. 108 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:14,240 I can't handle this insane and horrifying feelings of dark feelings. 109 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:22,200 I need to do more for the animals to lighten the load. 110 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:28,760 So starting Vistopia was really one of the things that I landed in. 111 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,360 What can I do? 112 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,720 And music has been a part of my life for a long, long time. 113 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:45,280 I never thought I would take the step to write anything that would have to do with veganism 114 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,840 or animal rights. 115 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:56,120 But suddenly it was just something that was so obvious that it's something I know, it's 116 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,280 something I'm pretty good at. 117 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,200 And I need to express this. 118 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,040 I need to get it out of my system. 119 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,200 I need to put it into words. 120 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:18,240 And I need to share those words with people, preferably with people that doesn't understand 121 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,760 me. 122 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,600 To share it with non-vegans. 123 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:31,080 I realized though, down the line so far, that my audience is mainly the vegan people and 124 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:32,560 the animal rights activists. 125 00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:35,720 And that's fine. 126 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:41,000 There's another reason for Vistopia, and we will come to that later. 127 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:49,600 But for me, like handling the pressure of being in this everyday Vistopia, it was something 128 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,720 I just had to do. 129 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:59,200 Yeah, it doesn't surprise me that most of your audience are vegans because we crave 130 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:04,080 to see veganism and animal rights represented in the arts. 131 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:08,200 I want to see movies portraying what we're going through. 132 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:14,720 I want to hear music that reflects our feelings because I don't see it. 133 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,480 It's like we're ignored by culture. 134 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:25,720 I think there's truly a hunger for more art around veganism. 135 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,160 Yeah, I totally agree. 136 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,480 There's definitely a hunger for it. 137 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:41,720 The more people can express themselves in whatever manner or way they are comfortable, 138 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:50,080 the more we will spread the word to the wider public, to the non-vegans as well. 139 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:57,840 The more footprints in the name of veganism we will make. 140 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:03,720 Eventually it will be unavoidable because I still meet people today that are kind of 141 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,160 like, oh, you're talking about that now again. 142 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:18,640 So like closing, shutting down their ears and on with the narrow minded side. 143 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,560 We need more of that. 144 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:32,120 If anyone listening, you are a person doing arts, dancing, painting, poetry, whatever, 145 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:42,360 see if there is a way you can express yourself and use your voice for the animals. 146 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,480 Art is an amazing tool. 147 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:54,280 I want to get back to your comment on feeling better about Vistopia. 148 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,460 I absolutely love your answer. 149 00:15:57,460 --> 00:16:04,600 Every week I see comments online, posts by vegans saying, you know, it's too much. 150 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,800 I feel so stressed and anxious about what's happening. 151 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,840 I feel so bad and negative about it. 152 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:18,080 Can you help me feel better? 153 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:26,600 And I'm always commenting, do something, take action, go out. 154 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,280 And I feel like I'm the only one making that comment. 155 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:37,320 I look at other comments, they're useful, but I feel like the real answer to that Vistopia 156 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,120 is action. 157 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,800 There is nothing more efficient. 158 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:48,880 I totally agree with you and I get like goosebumps when you say that. 159 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:58,480 From my point of view, I struggled, I was vegan for almost 10 years before I became 160 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,640 an animal rights activist. 161 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:07,120 Like I said earlier, I had that thought of becoming an activist for years. 162 00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:15,720 The one thing that really helped me was to become active. 163 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:25,680 Not only did I find a place where I could express what I felt, I also found the people 164 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,840 that totally got me. 165 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,040 That felt the same. 166 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:37,300 I could just be in the same atmosphere and I didn't need to say anything. 167 00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:44,620 I could just come there and take a sign and I can stand with that sign for two hours, 168 00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:46,760 not saying a single word. 169 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:55,680 And I could see people passing by and how they, in no way they could avoid seeing the 170 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,720 message we put out there. 171 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,040 And this is what most people don't get. 172 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,120 They're like, exactly what you said there. 173 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:07,200 I don't know what I can do. 174 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,840 Do something. 175 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,760 And people feel, but I'm not comfortable talking with people. 176 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,760 No, you don't have to. 177 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:22,600 Go up with your local activists group and just stand there with a sign. 178 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:35,920 Just imagine, imagine if you're like 50 people and you have 40 of them standing with signs. 179 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,240 No one passing by can avoid that. 180 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:45,080 You will be constantly sowing seeds in their minds. 181 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:50,240 And imagine if that number was like a hundred, a hundred and fifty or even more, because 182 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:58,240 people took the step and engaged in activism just by being there. 183 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:07,520 We would see so much happening, but instead people more like, oh, this is so tough and 184 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,160 they close. 185 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:15,320 And I totally get that because I had those days as well. 186 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:23,000 But it's liberating to take that step, to find that group. 187 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,640 Like I said, they know you. 188 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,560 If you come there and say, but I'm not comfortable in talking, that's all right. 189 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,040 Just be a part of it. 190 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:39,440 Those groups will afterwards also like they will have a cup of coffee or go and have some 191 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:40,440 food. 192 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:46,560 And then you can talk just with your new found friends because they will definitely become 193 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,120 new friends of yours. 194 00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:54,600 And you will realize that you are not alone. 195 00:19:54,600 --> 00:20:01,360 Because that is also one of the heavy burdens and feelings with this Topia is that we feel 196 00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:08,160 very alone, which is a crushing feeling in itself. 197 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:19,000 So take Ryan's word, everybody go out and activate yourself. 198 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,640 You could do nothing better for yourself. 199 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,040 I'm sure of it. 200 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,080 And for the animals. 201 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:34,000 And you will also strengthen your fellow activists because the more people joining, the more 202 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:40,540 they feel that yes, something is happening and they will get energy of people coming 203 00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:42,480 into the group as well. 204 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,520 So there's only benefits, benefits, benefits. 205 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:52,800 I was asked, doing this podcast, isn't it a bit depressing? 206 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,960 And no, it's the opposite. 207 00:20:54,960 --> 00:21:01,800 I have the honor and privilege of talking with vegans who are doing something every 208 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:11,600 week and seeing the passion in other people is just, I feel hopeful about the future. 209 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:18,220 I feel when I see people doing something about the horrible things happening out there and 210 00:21:18,220 --> 00:21:27,280 fighting this evil, it brings me so much optimism, positivity and like I said, hopefulness. 211 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,040 Totally agree. 212 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,680 Amazing. 213 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,040 So so far, eight singles have been released. 214 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,040 No, nine. 215 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:38,040 Nine. 216 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,040 Yes. 217 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:40,040 Nine. 218 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:46,320 We were set to record before the ninth single were released, right? 219 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:47,320 Yes. 220 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,320 I was reading my notes and my notes are outdated. 221 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:56,840 Yeah, there are nine singles that have been released and your newest one, you know, I 222 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,600 am a big fan. 223 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,520 Honestly, I just burst out laughing. 224 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:07,600 But let's talk about it maybe later. 225 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,360 But there is a total of 10 unreleased tracks. 226 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:16,140 Well, now nine that we can look forward to. 227 00:22:16,140 --> 00:22:22,400 So when is the last one going to be released? 228 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,680 You mean like the upcoming or the last one was released? 229 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,380 The upcoming one. 230 00:22:27,380 --> 00:22:33,940 The upcoming one will be released at the end of April and I'll take my cam and bring forth 231 00:22:33,940 --> 00:22:40,440 my calendar here so I can give you the actual date of release. 232 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:46,280 It will be the 22nd of April and why so? 233 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:53,120 Well, the 22nd of April is Earth Day and the song released on this day is called There 234 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:54,480 Is No Planet B. 235 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:55,480 Wonderful. 236 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:06,640 And yes, and how do we stay connected with you, with Vistopia, in order to get the updates 237 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,360 and the released songs first? 238 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:17,320 Yeah, I'm definitely most active on Instagram. 239 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:26,800 So if you connect with Vistopia official, you will get all the updates there. 240 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:33,480 But if you choose to like go to your preferred music streaming service, if it's Spotify, 241 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:43,000 Apple, Deezer, Amazon, iTunes, whatever, and you choose to subscribe or follow or whatever 242 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:49,560 that specific button will be called on that service, you will get a ping when the new 243 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,120 music is released. 244 00:23:53,120 --> 00:24:00,920 But I would love to say also that for me it would mean a lot if you would follow my Patreon 245 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,640 because you don't necessarily have to pay to be a part of Patreon. 246 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:11,680 You can follow for free and the more people joining Patreon for free, I will be better 247 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,280 on releasing posts that anyone can read. 248 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:23,440 But then of course if anyone has the possibility and would really like to support the music, 249 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:28,840 that would mean a lot if you are possible to do that. 250 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:35,680 So those are the ways to stay connected and to see all the updates. 251 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:43,520 Of course all the goodies, the behind the scenes and all that is of course for the Patreon 252 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,160 people paying for the membership. 253 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,840 Wonderful and listeners will find links in the description below. 254 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:59,800 Like we mentioned before, there isn't a lot of songs around veganism. 255 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:07,160 I guess there are a lot of well-known famous singers and musicians who are vegan like Billie 256 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,840 Eilish or Moby. 257 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:17,400 But in terms of songs, maybe the only famous song about veganism, about animal rights that 258 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:34,840 I know is Meat is Murder from The Smith. 259 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:41,200 Why do you think that animal rights songs are less appealing to the public? 260 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:49,440 Well for the very same reason that people don't really want to have the discussion, 261 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,560 they want to stay in the dark. 262 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:59,720 I know that is a cliché to say, but that's really the case. 263 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,800 When I first became vegan, people were really eagerly asking me questions. 264 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,600 Why did you choose veganism? 265 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,600 What's up with that? 266 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,800 And all these different questions. 267 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:18,920 But the more people talked to me, they realized that I had answers for every escape route 268 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,320 they chose. 269 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:28,120 And eventually people stopped asking me questions. 270 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:38,560 And people will, to my experience, they will only ask questions as long as they have some 271 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,000 kind of hope to get away with it. 272 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,120 They will ask a question and then they will hope that you don't have a really good answer. 273 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:54,440 Or if you have an answer, they hope in some way, maybe it's subconscious, I don't know, 274 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,920 but it seems like people hope that they will have a comeback. 275 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,160 So you have an answer and then they have a comeback. 276 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:09,600 And the more you are invested in spending time talking about veganism, you will hear 277 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,360 the same excuses over and over again. 278 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:14,700 What about lions? 279 00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:16,240 What about survival? 280 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,880 And nothing really has any value. 281 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:27,520 It's like, yeah, there's no value. 282 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:33,760 They try to sprinkle their seeds, but they will always just end up on the rock. 283 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:39,600 There's no fertile soils for their excuses. 284 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:45,760 And the more time you spend, I'm going to get back to engaging in activism, the more 285 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,840 time you engage in activism, the more you will learn to answer people's questions. 286 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:57,280 And the more you will learn in how wrong they are and how you can answer their questions 287 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:04,600 in a polite manner, in a calm manner, and just show that, well, I'm sorry, but you're 288 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,640 wrong. 289 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,880 And people are very, very strongly about, well, that's your opinion. 290 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:12,880 No. 291 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:13,880 Yes. 292 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:19,640 Well, yes, it's my opinion, but it's also a well-known fact. 293 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:28,920 It's scientifically proven and it's like medical study proven. 294 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,520 And so, yes, I don't know. 295 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,040 I kind of lose track of where we were, where we're heading. 296 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:44,520 Well, you know, I asked about why there aren't any songs, more songs about veganism and animal 297 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:45,520 rights. 298 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:46,520 I mean, we- 299 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,800 Sorry, I'm going to cut you short there. 300 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:50,800 Go ahead. 301 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:51,800 Sorry. 302 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:58,280 I think this is the fact, because I will totally love it if Brian Adams, famous vegan, would 303 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,360 make an animal rights song, like a vegan song. 304 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:09,720 But he will probably not do that because he would lose a lot of followers. 305 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:10,720 It's his life. 306 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:11,720 It's his livelihood. 307 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:20,200 That's what he does for a living and I totally love this because he came to Sweden a few 308 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,280 years ago and he was set to play on a specific arena. 309 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:34,280 And he said that if you're going to serve animal-based products, I won't play. 310 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:40,120 And oh my God, all hell broke loose. 311 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,160 And people like, oh, I'm not going to go to that concert if I can't eat my hamburger 312 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,120 and if I can eat my hot dog. 313 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:56,640 And I was like, come on, just have your freaking hot dog at home if that's so horrible. 314 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:04,120 And so I really went into that forum and commenting like, yeah, Brian, that's amazing. 315 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:12,160 And so in that aspect, he's really a voice for the animals, but still, I'm still waiting 316 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,040 for that song to come out. 317 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:21,440 I'm still waiting for Brian May, the guitarist of Queen, to make it like an animal rights 318 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,000 song. 319 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:31,800 The only, I wouldn't say the only, but the person that comes to mind, one of the few, 320 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:40,720 I could say that, that people and artists, musicians, that hasn't got like an animal 321 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:50,840 rights focus mainly from their main artistry is Aliza White-Gloats from Arch Enemy. 322 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:57,520 But apart, aside from Arch Enemy, she's all in. 323 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,720 And she has actually done a couple of songs. 324 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:07,240 I know one for sure, I would believe that there probably is one or two more apart from 325 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,520 that one. 326 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:15,160 But way too few vegan musicians make these kind of songs. 327 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,880 And that is what we need. 328 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:26,000 People who can stand, like remain and stand their ground. 329 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,000 But we'll see. 330 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:36,840 Or they can sing one of your songs if they don't want to produce one of their own. 331 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:37,840 That's an alternative. 332 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:44,440 Yes, that's a nice idea. 333 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:54,400 And I also want to make the comment that even though there aren't many songs on animal rights 334 00:31:54,400 --> 00:32:03,720 or veganism, music, like literature, like all forms of art will exploit animals as if 335 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:12,880 they were metaphors, as if they were images or to express a certain feeling or even an 336 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,520 insult. 337 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:21,840 So the animals are here, but it feels like it's just a reflection of the kind of animal 338 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,280 oppression and exploitation that is happening in the world. 339 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:36,440 We're just using them as a way to make poetry or something, which I find a bit uncomfortable. 340 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:49,700 I don't know if you have a position on using metaphors or insults that, like telling someone 341 00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:52,200 you're a pig or something. 342 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,200 What do you think about that? 343 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,080 Do you think it's okay to use language that way? 344 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,600 No, I don't think it's okay. 345 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,200 But it is very deeply embedded in our culture. 346 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,520 It's something that we learned from young age that this is what you say. 347 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,260 This is how you say it and this is what you say. 348 00:33:15,260 --> 00:33:22,700 And you're referring to this as like two birds with one stone. 349 00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:29,480 In Sweden we say like two flies in one smash. 350 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,680 But it's really the same thing. 351 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:39,760 And I love that people are intentionally changing these expressions, which we all should take 352 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:40,760 part in. 353 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,880 It's like feeding two birds with one scone. 354 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,520 I love that one. 355 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,400 I don't know who said it, but I just love it. 356 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,080 It's amazing. 357 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:58,080 It's pretty much the same word-wise when you look at the letters, but it's completely different 358 00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,080 meaning. 359 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,160 It's more compassionate and kind, way more, obviously. 360 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:13,520 And I think that we should just try to become aware of what words we are choosing. 361 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:23,760 I commented on a post just this past week when a girl wrote that the animals, this animal, 362 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,720 it is, but no, no, no, no, no. 363 00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:29,760 Animals is not a it. 364 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,000 It's a he or a she and or they. 365 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,720 We need to start thinking how we express ourselves. 366 00:34:38,720 --> 00:34:47,440 Because only by simply by changing our words, we will help people start thinking. 367 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,280 Because they will be like, what did you say there? 368 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:59,160 It was like, yeah, I said it because I meant it, because that's how it is. 369 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,560 I think it's extremely important. 370 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:09,920 And it could be also like a fun thing, for this example, feed two birds with one scone. 371 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,400 It's beautiful and it's fun. 372 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:17,160 Yeah, but don't feed real birds with scones. 373 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,520 Just grains, no bread. 374 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:22,520 Grains and seeds. 375 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,520 Yes. 376 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,520 They love that stuff. 377 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,040 Yeah, but it's difficult. 378 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:36,280 I still surprise myself using it for animal, but I use it for babies, you know, human babies. 379 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,160 And there is one term I just can't wrap my head around. 380 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:48,520 It's using non-human animals at every intersection of I feel like it's it just makes communication 381 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,540 difficult to add that non-human animal every time. 382 00:35:52,540 --> 00:35:59,720 One part of it, I think it's because we are it's new to us. 383 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:05,480 So we aren't really perhaps that comfortable about using these terms. 384 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:13,680 But I also believe there are more important occasions when we definitely should use that 385 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,440 phrasing. 386 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:25,000 And I think it's something we need if we just like if we reflect upon what we're saying 387 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,520 and what we're doing as we go along, we can learn from it. 388 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:39,640 And with that, we can hopefully start like a different interaction with people. 389 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,960 But I understand where you're coming from there. 390 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:43,960 Absolutely. 391 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:51,960 You were talking about the reaction people had of that singer, what was his name, who 392 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:57,840 did not want to serve non-vegan food at his concert. 393 00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:58,840 Brian Adams. 394 00:36:58,840 --> 00:36:59,840 Brian Adams. 395 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:00,840 Yes. 396 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,520 What was the reaction? 397 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:12,400 What is the reaction to your songs from a non-vegan perspective? 398 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,680 My words with Vistopia is still pretty young. 399 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:22,600 Well, I've been doing it for more than two years, so it's not too young. 400 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:30,840 But you know, it's still like it's music appealing to be vegans, it's music appealing to animal 401 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,400 rights activists. 402 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:40,160 And apart from that, I don't know how many non-vegans that really takes the time to listen. 403 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,280 I do share it with people. 404 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:49,600 Like the other day, I did share my newest single, because it's a punk rock song. 405 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:58,520 I shared it with a friend, an old friend, with whom I started my first band and was 406 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:04,360 a punk rock band, so it was obviously the right thing to share this song with him. 407 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:10,080 And he had listened and he said he really liked the song, but he didn't talk anything 408 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:20,920 about the meaning of the words or the name of the song, Small Dicks Club, which is a 409 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,560 metaphor for how people act. 410 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:32,720 Because I feel that if you feel the need to go out and kill innocent, beautiful animals, 411 00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:36,880 you are struggling with something. 412 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:46,360 And it could very well be that you have a complex. 413 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:53,160 But yeah, regarding, yeah, sorry. 414 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:59,680 No if you had something to say, go ahead. 415 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:10,640 There are people that I know isn't vegan that had commented anything, which they are few. 416 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:19,920 When I released the first single, Bereaved and Breast, I have a close friend that wrote 417 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:27,040 to me on Messenger and said that, I listened to your song, but then I had to Google this 418 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,400 term, dystopia. 419 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,760 And now I understand you way better. 420 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,240 And I was like, yes, that's a win. 421 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:42,200 Of course, I would feel very much better about things if he said that I did Google this term 422 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,640 and it was really upsetting to know that shit, you're struggling with this stuff. 423 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,120 And I got me thinking and I need to go vegan. 424 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,740 That would have been the preferred outcome of that conversation. 425 00:39:55,740 --> 00:40:03,760 But still, that he took the time to look up the term, that's a yes. 426 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:16,360 But then another one is like, had a true internet troll coming on board my Instagram and she 427 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:23,680 was commenting on one of my posts where I had posted sitting playing with the acoustic 428 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,480 guitar and singing, oh, my ears are bleeding. 429 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,700 This is the most horrible stuff that I have ever heard. 430 00:40:29,700 --> 00:40:32,960 And I was like, yeah, but sorry, I can't take you seriously. 431 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,880 You're just trying to hit me where it hurts. 432 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:45,440 And I cannot even begin to air. 433 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,920 So I was just writing that. 434 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,880 Thank you for upping my algorithms. 435 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:51,880 Keep writing. 436 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:57,000 I want to talk about the different songs that you have released. 437 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:25,760 And let's start with the newest one, Small Dicks Club. 438 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:41,880 I think it's a wonderful way of addressing the masculinity aspect of that people associate 439 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,560 with meat and hunting. 440 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:52,280 I'm a podcaster and the biggest podcast in the world is the Joe Rogan show. 441 00:41:52,280 --> 00:42:01,240 And he is always talking about meat and hunting and how veganism is unhealthy. 442 00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:05,980 It makes listening to him impossible. 443 00:42:05,980 --> 00:42:15,680 So I want to hear your thoughts about why people associate hunting and eating meat with 444 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,240 masculinity. 445 00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:27,400 I think it's because, you know, like the reptile brain, people are still like stuck in the 446 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:35,000 Stone Age and still believe that the man should go out there and take care of the family and 447 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:41,320 bring home the food while the missus is standing by the stove and cooking food. 448 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,800 That's the manly stuff. 449 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:58,280 And we really need to change and get away from that because it not only is it may have 450 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:07,440 been that way once upon a time, but it's ages ago. 451 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:23,560 And we're striving towards a more equal society where the salaries are more like the same. 452 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:28,640 It took a long time, but women can write and vote. 453 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,160 I mean, vote nowadays. 454 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:32,160 And write. 455 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,300 Yeah, they weren't allowed in school. 456 00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:39,080 And that was not too long ago either. 457 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,200 It's horrible how the history has. 458 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:49,280 I was born in North Africa and the generation of my grandparents, you know, they were not 459 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,160 accepted or embraced in school. 460 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,080 So I have two grandmothers who grew up illiterate. 461 00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:01,920 So yeah, it's not that far away, historically speaking. 462 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:12,440 So we're still in this weird mindset that caring for the family. 463 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:17,200 Well, that's a good thing, but it's not a manly thing. 464 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,720 It's a sane thing. 465 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:24,200 Anyone who cares for their family want to make sure that the family is doing good, of 466 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:25,320 course. 467 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:26,680 Right? 468 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:37,080 But how could anyone actually believe that killing innocent animals when there's no need 469 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,160 for it? 470 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:46,400 When the medical data and the scientific data is speaking against it, they'll believe that, 471 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,240 well, this makes me a very manly man. 472 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:51,240 I don't know. 473 00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:53,840 People just were stuck. 474 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,280 Well, I feel like it has something to do with strength. 475 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:05,720 You know, the associates being strong with being masculine and you want to test your 476 00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:13,720 strength and so you're going hunting and you're eating meat because that will make you grow 477 00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:15,400 muscles. 478 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:22,460 And I feel like when I look at someone going hunting, I don't feel like you're testing 479 00:45:22,460 --> 00:45:23,460 your strength. 480 00:45:23,460 --> 00:45:30,760 I don't feel like you're bullying the animal because the power inequality is so great. 481 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:39,680 You have this weapon and you have a coat and you're well fed and this poor deer or any 482 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:50,320 animals you're pursuing don't have half of the benefits that you're having against you. 483 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:56,080 And hunting, modern day hunting is absolutely horrifying. 484 00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:03,600 Some hunters will put cameras on trees to follow their prey. 485 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:10,040 They have night goggles and it's not a fair fight here. 486 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:11,040 It's just- 487 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,640 And they call it a sport. 488 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:22,480 It's like, I don't remember his surname now, but Seth something. 489 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:29,760 He said that people consider it to be a sport, but a sport is when both teams play on equal 490 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,480 terms, you know. 491 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,320 So there's nothing. 492 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,760 There's nothing even close to being a sport. 493 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:49,080 It's just like you said, it's a horrible, murderous agenda and it's pure cowardice. 494 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:57,480 If you want to show your strength, go for an Ironman race or at least a Thriot one, 495 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:02,880 you know, or join the World's Strongest Man Challenge. 496 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,060 Then you can show your strength. 497 00:47:06,060 --> 00:47:15,240 You will never impress me by holding a gun and shooting at someone. 498 00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:16,240 That's pure cowardice. 499 00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:21,280 I want to talk about a term that you use. 500 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,840 It's the title of one of your songs, but I've also heard it in the lyrics of another 501 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,840 song and it's Conscience Debated. 502 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:55,320 You're the one who have coined this word and it's my new favorite term, honestly. 503 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,040 So what's the definition of Conscience Debated? 504 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,320 First, thank you for acknowledging that. 505 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:10,880 I want to give some credit to my late dad because he brought us up really doing all 506 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,000 the daddy jokes, you know, playing with words. 507 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:23,080 So if I have something after him, it's definitely that enjoying to play with words. 508 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:29,080 It was actually a term that I came up with probably a year or year and a half before 509 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:35,840 I actually wrote the song, but I found it to be a funny combination. 510 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:42,880 Like from Conscience Debated from two words, conscience, being conscious of your own actions 511 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:51,240 like, or even also the quite similar one to have a conscience or being conscious about, 512 00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:55,200 okay, I did something and I feel bad about it. 513 00:48:55,200 --> 00:49:02,600 So it's being aware of what you are doing. 514 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:14,040 But then you have debated, which comes from constipated, which is when you look at the 515 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:21,920 mind, I tend to feel very strongly and very often that most people are constipated in 516 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:22,920 their minds. 517 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:28,400 They're like, well, you know, I was taught this in school and they said that drinking 518 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,240 milk is good for the bones. 519 00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:32,680 It must be that way. 520 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:39,240 My mom said so, my dad said so, and the school said so, and I'm a grown man. 521 00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:40,520 Come on. 522 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,600 And people be like, well, you know, you have to be a man that thinks for yourself. 523 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:46,600 Yeah. 524 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:51,920 How about you join in and do that? 525 00:49:51,920 --> 00:50:01,160 Most people are just like struggling in the same, what do you say, bread on the same treadmill, 526 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:08,440 not getting anywhere and still claiming that they actually know something or figured something 527 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:14,420 out, but they're still on the breast milk or they're still torturing animals and say 528 00:50:14,420 --> 00:50:21,400 they are the most and the biggest animal lover in the whole world. 529 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,880 And it doesn't make sense. 530 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:31,760 And that, and because of those things, it's very important that we are loud. 531 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:39,640 We should never fall into the trap and become that good silent vegan. 532 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:47,240 Because the only thing they want that is to be left alone so they can have their burger 533 00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:52,560 without thinking of the pain and suffering that they are causing. 534 00:50:52,560 --> 00:51:03,560 So conscious depated is really like a conscious depated, a constipated mind that helps you 535 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:11,200 keep acting in the same way and doing the same cycle over and over again, ignoring all 536 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:22,080 the science, ignoring all the suffering and just keep doing what is easy to you. 537 00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:23,520 I'm obsessed with that word. 538 00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:30,960 I also like the fact that it has a connection with the food you're eating, constipation, 539 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:36,320 so it makes it hard to evacuate things because of your diet. 540 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,200 Who does that? 541 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:45,560 Well I also like the fact that it's kind of seen like a medical condition and I often 542 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:53,280 wonder is there any hope for some people to be convinced or influenced and do you think 543 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,640 that there are some people who are beyond the reach of the vegan movement that there 544 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:02,640 is no hope to convince them whatsoever? 545 00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:10,680 Well definitely that's the case, but I could never be the person to pinpoint another person 546 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:19,200 and say that this is a hopeless case because what I've learned through life is that even 547 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:23,880 the people that wouldn't be on your list of the first hundred people that might go vegan 548 00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:32,160 one day or even try vegetarian food or whatever, like just doing a gradual change to something 549 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:37,500 better, those are the people that actually did something. 550 00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:42,760 They weren't on that list. 551 00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:54,280 So people can definitely be reached, but the interesting and the key question is what will 552 00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:55,760 trigger that person? 553 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,880 And I mean that like triggering in a good way. 554 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:08,320 What will be the turning of the page or what do you say? 555 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,280 Make the transition. 556 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:20,160 Yes and that will be the hard part because I believe that the key is a different key 557 00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,160 for different people. 558 00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:30,160 I met a wonderful guy on the first animal rights camp I went to, he's very engaged in 559 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:39,280 like social justice movement, but he's a vegan and he also serves that fight. 560 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:51,080 And he told that he was trying for years to convince his mother to take up veganism, but 561 00:53:51,080 --> 00:54:01,240 he didn't reach her until one day when he brought up what happens to the calves in the 562 00:54:01,240 --> 00:54:08,960 dairy industry, what happens to that family. 563 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:18,640 And that was the key word for her because in her view, the most important thing in life 564 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,560 is family. 565 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:31,400 So when he kind of put that word into the context of everything, the context of veganism, 566 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:36,000 like well you are destroying this family. 567 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,360 He was like what? 568 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,680 And something happened. 569 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:48,840 And he said that I should have known, but sometimes it's so obvious that you can't 570 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:54,160 see it and you're stuck in all the things you do know that you really do want to say 571 00:54:54,160 --> 00:55:00,500 to people, but that might not just be the key for that person. 572 00:55:00,500 --> 00:55:06,180 And I believe that's the hard part because if you listen to, I'm sorry, I've been listening 573 00:55:06,180 --> 00:55:10,160 to other postcards, sorry. 574 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:17,840 And I listened to like farmers becoming vegan, hunters becoming vegan. 575 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,320 So it's a matter of perception. 576 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:31,040 It's a matter of that specific event in time, that action, that phrase, that key word or 577 00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:32,600 whatever. 578 00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:39,160 And we won't ever know until it's there. 579 00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:48,280 I'm asking this because in your song protein deficiency blues, you sing the following lyrics. 580 00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:52,840 He said, would you be so kind to consider to choose what I choose? 581 00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:58,600 And then he just signed and delivered and thus I was stuck with the protein deficiency 582 00:55:58,600 --> 00:55:59,600 blues. 583 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:10,960 And I didn't know, but up ahead there was a crowd, a wise man held his speech. 584 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:21,760 He said, would you be so kind to consider to choose what I choose? 585 00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:31,440 And then he just signed and delivered and thus I was stuck with the protein deficiency 586 00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:32,440 blues. 587 00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:44,360 And I got the feeling that for you, veganism was not really a choice, that you had to become 588 00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:46,360 vegan. 589 00:56:46,360 --> 00:57:01,600 And so I asked myself, did I have a choice at being vegan or was it just my natural inclination? 590 00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:06,240 Because I know I would not have chosen any other path. 591 00:57:06,240 --> 00:57:15,480 I could not deal with my guilt of not doing the right thing. 592 00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:26,200 So yeah, that's why I ask, do we really choose to become vegan or does veganism choose us? 593 00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:37,720 I love the philosophy of that question because I think we could do an episode just with that 594 00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:43,280 one question and it would be amazing for my part. 595 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:56,120 And yeah, I think that once I was presented with the right information, it was like, no, 596 00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,000 I don't have a choice. 597 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,920 I only have one choice and that is to become vegan. 598 00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:08,600 And it was like from that instance. 599 00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:15,720 And the thing was, I tried to paint the scenario of what actually happened. 600 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:24,800 I didn't meet that man in real life, but I watched the lecture of Gary Diorovsky, the 601 00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:26,400 best speech you'll ever hear. 602 00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,720 And it was like, okay, so someone recommended me to see this. 603 00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:34,160 Someone recommended me to watch and listen to this. 604 00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:41,040 So I played it and I was nailed to that speech. 605 00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:47,800 And when he was done, I was like, I have nothing to say. 606 00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,000 I have only one thing to do. 607 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:58,000 And that is from now on, from this very instance, I am vegan. 608 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:09,800 So I think that we are brought up in a specific way and we learn a behavior. 609 00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:16,560 But when we are presented with the right information, we could do the right choice. 610 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:22,400 And there are so many great memes, but there's a beautiful one. 611 00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:30,120 And there's a reason why you bring your children to pick apples, but not to visit a slaughterhouse. 612 00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,240 Yeah, because the choice would become obvious. 613 00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,160 They would never want to eat meat again. 614 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:43,040 But you are not ready to confront yourself with all that pain and suffering. 615 00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:50,960 So you will just push them on into the same lane as you were brought up into. 616 00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:58,360 And then meat eaters have the stomach to say that, well, you know, you're brainwashing 617 00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:02,920 your children and you're forcing them to choose this lifestyle. 618 01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:13,280 Well, you know, from the families I know, the vegan ones are the only really sane ones 619 01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:20,160 because those are the only families where they have been truthful with the children 620 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:24,520 and letting them know this is what happens. 621 01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:35,720 This is why we choose to eat seeds, berries, fruits, greens, and all that wonderful, colorful, 622 01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,920 tasty plant-based stuff. 623 01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:45,400 Because the obvious answer is that the children don't want to eat animals. 624 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,320 Most of them don't want to do that. 625 01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:53,920 And those who do want to do that, they are doing it, I believe, solely to make their 626 01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:58,040 parents proud. 627 01:00:58,040 --> 01:00:59,040 That's the case for me. 628 01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:04,920 I was, I didn't really enjoy fishing when I was younger and I didn't do it at home. 629 01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:11,320 We have this beautiful, in the village where I grew up, this beautiful river and it's, 630 01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,080 there's a lot of salmon in that one. 631 01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,720 I never did any fishing there. 632 01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:22,640 But when we went on vacations, it was like the thing to do, to go out to the sea and 633 01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,240 do some deep sea fishing. 634 01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:32,640 I never really enjoyed it in a way, in the sense that once you got that fish on the hook 635 01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:37,400 and into the boat, I could never kill that fish. 636 01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:41,200 But I was very much responsible for getting it into the boat. 637 01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:43,520 And my parents, they were so happy. 638 01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:45,960 Yeah, you caught a fish. 639 01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,200 And that was my reward. 640 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:56,520 And because of that, I fooled myself that what I did was something good, if they were 641 01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:57,520 happy. 642 01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:04,280 But if they would have said to me, okay, what really happened here? 643 01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:08,840 Did we put this fish back in the sea? 644 01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,640 Or should we just leave them alone in the first place? 645 01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:16,320 I'd probably be like, well, I don't want to hurt them. 646 01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:21,240 Because I stopped eating like fish when I was three or four years old. 647 01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:26,760 Because I saw fishes in aquariums and I was like, wow, these are beautiful creatures and 648 01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,040 I love them swimming around. 649 01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:34,040 So it was really, that is cognitive dissonance, right? 650 01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,160 Which most people seem to struggle with. 651 01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:44,200 They do something, but then they have an explanation to righteous that very thing. 652 01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:49,800 And when you confront them about, okay, so how does this add up? 653 01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:55,080 No, I don't want to have this conversation. 654 01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,480 Maybe I lost track of the answer here. 655 01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:01,680 But this was my association to the whole question. 656 01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:03,400 Well, that's podcasting for you. 657 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,600 You know, you start, well, that's a normal conversation. 658 01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:08,480 You know? 659 01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:17,040 Well, I want to mention the impact that you have made not only by inspiring vegans, but 660 01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:21,600 also by the money you have raised. 661 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:30,960 You have raised more than $2,980 and you have decided to use that money to finance the activities 662 01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,960 of various charities. 663 01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,720 So first of all, thank you. 664 01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,440 What a wonderful thing. 665 01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:46,200 And can you tell us a bit about the charities that you have chosen to help maybe some highlights 666 01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,200 of what they are? 667 01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,800 Yeah, absolutely. 668 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,520 Well, there's like this charity. 669 01:03:54,520 --> 01:04:08,080 I was a monthly donor, like part of my salary for more than 20 years to this organization 670 01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:15,680 in Sweden translated would be called like animal testing without animal testing, like 671 01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:19,800 science without animal testing. 672 01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:23,240 And they are doing some amazing work. 673 01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:31,400 And they also point out that like 90% of the tests that are successful on animals, we can 674 01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:35,860 just imagine the horrifying numbers that is unsuccessful. 675 01:04:35,860 --> 01:04:42,660 But 90% of the amount that is unsuccessful on are successful on animals is not transferable 676 01:04:42,660 --> 01:04:43,660 to humans. 677 01:04:43,660 --> 01:04:46,200 So we really need to change that. 678 01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:54,440 I supported them for many years and once I started Vistopia, I withdrew all the support 679 01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:59,160 that I had just to kind of build up some sort of economy. 680 01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:08,600 But then I actually started giving away more money than I ever gave before because good 681 01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:10,700 things were happening. 682 01:05:10,700 --> 01:05:19,400 So that is one of the bigger ones, science without animal testing, directly translated. 683 01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:23,820 But there are several different ones, a big inspiration. 684 01:05:23,820 --> 01:05:32,000 They have a lot of beautiful and horrible videos, Toronto Cowsave. 685 01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:37,880 So they have been an inspiration for, it's actually the cow on the picture of Breathe 686 01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:42,600 and Breast is from a video by them. 687 01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:47,560 And so I've given them some money. 688 01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:53,520 I try to do like this thing when people support the making of the music, when I have like 689 01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:58,120 musician joining in and they play for free. 690 01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:06,160 I ask them like, okay, so in your name, can I donate the sum of money to a cause? 691 01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:12,680 I have several ideas, but if you have something that you are passionate about, please let 692 01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:14,920 me know and we can give the money to them. 693 01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:22,000 So obviously, Stop From Home For Cats has been one of them and we have like a really 694 01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:29,480 beautiful sanctuary for senior dogs, like 10 years and older in the south of Sweden. 695 01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:31,880 It's called the Black Dog Foundation. 696 01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:38,060 They have been the receiver for gifts and many more. 697 01:06:38,060 --> 01:06:43,320 You could go on to my Instagram and see the three pinned posts. 698 01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:49,600 And if you read through them, you will see a long list of causes, organizations that 699 01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:51,920 have received money from Vistopia. 700 01:06:51,920 --> 01:07:01,560 And you can also read about this if you look on Spotify, like about the artist. 701 01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:05,240 Make the answer a bit shorter. 702 01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:10,600 Wonderful and I like the name Black Dog. 703 01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:15,520 Usually we use Black Dog to symbolize depression. 704 01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:18,160 And so I like that they have taken that name. 705 01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:26,000 I don't know if it's on purpose, but it is on purpose, but not for that specific cause. 706 01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:37,880 Sandra, who is the founder of Black Dog Foundation, she knows that the most undesired dog is a 707 01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:39,600 black dog. 708 01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:46,120 A black dog will be the last one to be chosen at a shelter. 709 01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,520 And so she takes them all in. 710 01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:54,160 And that was the name for her organization for that very reason. 711 01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:58,720 She wants to highlight the neglect. 712 01:07:58,720 --> 01:07:59,720 I know that. 713 01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:02,480 She's doing an amazing job. 714 01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:11,320 She has so many dogs on her grounds and they have different struggles, many of them. 715 01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:16,480 But they are just an amazing crowd of dogs. 716 01:08:16,480 --> 01:08:18,120 A pack of dogs, right? 717 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:22,000 Not a crowd, a pack of dogs. 718 01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:33,160 It's incredible that the meaning of a black dog has so much power on the actual flesh, 719 01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,720 blood and flesh dog. 720 01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:43,520 I did not know that in shelters, dogs who are black had less luck getting adopted. 721 01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:51,240 I know that in many Muslim countries, black dogs are also considered cursed or something. 722 01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:53,120 They're a bad omen. 723 01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,840 And there is of course the meaning that it's depression. 724 01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:59,040 A black dog symbolizes depression. 725 01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:05,560 But real life black dogs have nothing to do with the meanings we stick on them and the 726 01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:11,480 labels we put on them and the stories we tell ourselves about them. 727 01:09:11,480 --> 01:09:13,400 It's crazy. 728 01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:20,840 They will have so much love to give if they're only given the chance, for sure. 729 01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:22,120 Amazing. 730 01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:29,800 So maybe now is a good time to stop the recording and end the conversation. 731 01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:34,440 But before that, did you have anything more to add to the conversation? 732 01:09:34,440 --> 01:09:42,640 I don't know if I think I mentioned it, but please do follow Vistopia on Instagram, Spotify, 733 01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:49,440 YouTube, Facebook, whatever social media or streaming service you use. 734 01:09:49,440 --> 01:09:56,560 Because the more people we can reach, the more people who play the music, the more funds 735 01:09:56,560 --> 01:10:00,840 we can raise together and the more funds I can give to the animals. 736 01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:06,080 So follow, but more than follow, stream the music. 737 01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:08,240 Just stream away. 738 01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:10,480 Put it on repeat. 739 01:10:10,480 --> 01:10:18,040 I don't care if you listen to the music actively or it's just in the background or it's just 740 01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:22,400 going on repeat because you know it will be in funds and the funds will be given to aid 741 01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:23,400 animals in need. 742 01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:28,160 And that's the whole idea with this project. 743 01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,680 So it's for the animals. 744 01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:32,760 Amazing. 745 01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:39,280 And follow the example of Martin, Keir Hobie and you. 746 01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:44,080 Something constructive, something positive to make the world a better place. 747 01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:51,160 Take your passion for music or for anything else and see how you can make it into something 748 01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:55,800 that helps and makes a difference in the lives of many. 749 01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:58,460 And yeah, thank you. 750 01:10:58,460 --> 01:10:59,460 Thank you so much, Martin. 751 01:10:59,460 --> 01:11:05,000 This was a really pleasant conversation and yeah, an inspiring one too. 752 01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:09,520 So thank you for your time and thank you for having accepted my invitation. 753 01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:10,520 Thank you, Ryan. 754 01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:12,480 It was a pleasure to talk with you. 755 01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:15,440 So looking forward to see what you're up to next. 756 01:11:15,440 --> 01:11:17,080 Thank you everyone for listening. 757 01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:21,640 I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know. 758 01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,720 Let's encourage more people to take action. 759 01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:48,920 Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.