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Hello everyone, this is Ryan and you are listening to the Vegan Report.

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Today we are going to talk about veganism and social media.

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Let me start by saying that I despise social media.

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I think they do a lot of good, however they are ultimately a force for bad in the world.

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They make our society unhealthy and more divisive and you will find that I have no personal

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presence on social media platforms.

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But my opinion is certainly not the popular one.

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Most people wholeheartedly embrace social media and this is particularly true in the

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vegan movement.

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Animal rights organizations tend to be hyperactive on social media and this is nothing to say

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of the army of vegan influencers out there.

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Yet is it the right way to go?

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Can't we be just a little critical of this proximity with social media and self-reflect

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on what it means for veganism on the long term?

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To discuss this topic I have with me someone who is not afraid of playing with daring ideas,

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a public commentator and vegan influencer whose insights and critical thinking I find

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valuable.

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You know him as Carnism Debunked.

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George, welcome to the show, thank you so much for being here.

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Yeah, thank you, it's a pleasure to be on.

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So George, as an icebreaker question, I wanted to start by asking you, do you find that vegans

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on social media are representative of the vegan population at large?

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Yeah, this is a tough one because I guess it depends where on social media you mean.

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If you mean the kind of animal rights community on social media, I would say unfortunately

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not because well most people who identify as vegan I don't even consider to be vegan

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to be honest.

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If you look at the average man or woman on the street who says yeah I'm vegan, you know

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I'm scratched beneath the surface and it's yeah I'm vegan, you know I eat honey occasionally

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and I have a bit of seafood every now and again or something that's like okay yeah you're

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not vegan kind of thing.

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And I think when you're in a lot of these huge Facebook groups and stuff you see a lot

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of these kind of like apologists or people who literally don't understand what veganism

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is and that's the majority of people identifying as vegan.

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But if you look at the actual circles that I'm involved in on social media where we all

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have mutual friends with each other and we're all going to these events and stuff, the actual

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activist community, yeah we're a tight-knit kind of community within the whole sphere

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of veganism.

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But to cut a long story short I guess we're not representative of it if you look at the

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actual animal rights community on social media.

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There is a caricature out there of what a vegan is and I think social media are doing

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a great job at portraying that caricature because we have those big vegan influencers

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who are I guess giving a certain reputation of the vegan movement and of vegans in general.

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What do you think of that phenomenon?

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Yeah it's hard to say because on the one hand we have got the kind of hardcore vegan activist

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influencers you'll see people like Tash Peterson, Joey Carbstrong, that vegan teacher and stuff

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and that creates an impression in people's head at least of the activist vegan.

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But then the annoying thing in my view is that the vast majority of our representation

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on social media is food pages and these food pages, no shade on the great food pages out

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there and all the work that they do, but the majority of these vegan food pages are just

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run by apologists, the people who are like live and let live, you do what you want to

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do and I don't care if you murder and abuse animals, I don't but you can do that if you

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want kind of thing.

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I would much rather that people actually, if there's going to be a negative stereotype

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about vegans, I would rather it was the militant activist kind of stereotype than it was just

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this kind of weak pushover who says you abuse animals if you want, it's not my prerogative

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but you feel free to do it.

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So yeah I guess it depends where you look but our social media really is dominated by

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food pages and that needs to change.

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Do you consider the discussion around health and lifestyle veganism as being true to or

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useful for the animal rights cause?

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Yeah, that's a very good question.

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So first of all, veganism actually has nothing to do with health, nutrition, that kind of

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thing, right?

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It just means you're someone who believes that animals are not our slaves, you don't

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see animals as resources, you wish to live free as far as is practicable and possible,

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a life free of animal exploitation, of animal slavery.

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So it's a rejection of the use of animals as commodities for us.

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But at the same time we have to understand that we get these counter, these arguments

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all the time about the nutrition of living as a vegan.

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So these arguments still have a place in that context.

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If you're a vegan and you don't know how to respond to such arguments, you're not going

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to represent veganism very well.

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So it has its place.

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We do need to be clued up on how to answer these arguments but at the same time it's

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not what veganism is about, it's not about health, it is about the animals.

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The reason for that is there's ways to abuse animals that don't impact your health.

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So there's no way to abuse an animal that doesn't violate veganism in some way.

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So that would be my answer to that I guess.

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There is also kind of a cultish character to all of this discourse around health and

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lifestyle.

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And I think the fact that it is on social media just amplifies the whole guru aspect

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of it.

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Yeah, you have kind of a cult of personality around that.

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And when I hear those people speak, I feel like it's less about animals or even about

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veganism than it is about their personality.

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And I feel like this is the whole thing of the epidemic of narcissism that has been brought

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up by social media and I think the vegan movement has not been spared by that.

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And many of those vegan influencers are just narcissistic people who are interested by

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their own ego and their image more than animals are being empathic or following a plant-based

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diet.

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They're ready to abandon veganism if it's not serving their...

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It's not worth it anymore and people will still continue following them.

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Yeah, what do you think about that?

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You're absolutely right and you took the words right out of my mouth.

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Narcissism is one of the things that we're really observing now in vegan circles with

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this spate of ex-vegans that there's been recently.

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And I think with ex-vegans before, I was kind of clueless as to how this is happening.

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I was always thinking, well, how could you bear witness to the torture that animals go

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through and live the life and stuff and then one day just turn your back on them again?

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And now I guess the reason is it's revealing itself, like you say, to be, I think, narcissism.

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I'm just going to turn my camera off here because it says my signal's pretty bad.

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So sorry.

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There we go.

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So I think that is a huge pathway to becoming an ex-vegan.

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And as you say, it does show itself a lot in these kind of health circles and stuff.

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And you're right, it's kind of these people are quote unquote vegan just to make it about

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them and not about the animals.

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And they come into veganism as a way to give their lives meaning or as a way to kind of

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look down on others to say like, I'm, you know, I hate this carnist argument, by the

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way, when carnists say stuff like, you lot just act vegan, you lot are just vegan so

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you can act superior to others.

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Now in mind, in your case, that's not true.

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Okay.

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But because we're in it for the animals.

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But unfortunately, there is a slight truth to it when it comes to these narcissists who

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are just imposters in the vegan movement.

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I feel the pressure of covering the health and lifestyle aspect.

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I try, you know, I wanted a podcast dedicated to animal rights, but I see how it's more

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popular to address the health and lifestyle questions.

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People don't want to hear about the ethical side of veganism.

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So I guess it's also a question of where the demand is on in the social media world.

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You're right.

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And I think it trivializes the message when we, you know, if we're talking about a justice

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movement here and we're only talking about it in aspects to, you know, oh, you improve

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your health or something like that.

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What other justice movement do you think that this would be applicable to?

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In no other movement would we sell, you know, would we sell the movement based on the benefits

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to the oppressor?

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Oh, stop oppressing this group of people and, you know, your health will improve and stuff.

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And it's like, no, it's about the victims.

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It can only be about them.

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And I think it's very misguided and blinkered thinking from vegans when they say stuff like,

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well, okay, but not everyone's open to the animal rights message though.

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Well, okay, but you know, you understand that those people that you convert based on quote

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unquote health, they're not going to be in it for the long run anyway.

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And they're just going to abuse animals whenever the chances that they get when they find out

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that this doesn't impact their health in any way.

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Or, you know, even on the environmental aspects, you know, if you would just say, well, this,

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the environmental aspect might be more applicable to someone.

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Okay.

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Well, the day that the beef industry comes out with these pellets that they feed to cows

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that eliminates methane from their, from their waste.

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Okay.

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The person's now eating steak again.

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So you have to keep it based on the animals and it undermines the animal.

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It says that, you know, this idea that we should promote the health and the environment

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aspects more so than this or, or in equal, with equal, you know, conviction to the ethics

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stuff.

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It kind of says that the animal rights message on its own isn't good enough when it is, that

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is what has to shape the, the, the progress of a society, the moral progress of a society.

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I want to say amen to everything you just said.

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And there's another aspect I always go back to.

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And it's the fact that most vegans abandon their vegan diet, or at least that's how

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it appears to be.

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If we look at a study by Phonolitics, most vegetarians and vegans quit their vegetarianism

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or veganism after a few months to a few years.

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And I think this is largely, largely due to the fact that they became vegan or vegetarian

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for the wrong reason.

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And that you can sustain this lifestyle without having a good motivation and convictions behind

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it.

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Yeah, you're a hundred percent right.

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Well, this is the problem with the sampling.

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I used to work in market research.

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So I know quite a bit about this, about how you make one sampling floor and the whole

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results, results of the survey can therefore just be skewed and give a completely different

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message.

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If you're including in the vegan population in your survey, in your data, people who literally

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aren't even vegan.

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So people who just self-identify as vegan, you will get very flawed, flawed results.

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If you just say to the average man and the woman on the street, are you vegan?

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Well, loads of them are going to be like, yeah, I am.

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Those people are being included in the survey.

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And yeah, the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people who say, oh yeah, I'm

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vegan, they're not going to stick to being vegan.

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They're not, because they're not even vegan to begin with.

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This is quite a crude analogy that I'm going to make, but this is to do with the problems

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with self-identification in surveys.

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So there was a study on penis size years ago, and they found that men in this country's

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penises were wildly different measurements from what they actually are.

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And the reason that it came out with those results is because they got the participants

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to measure it themselves.

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When the researchers then said, do you know what, this seems strange to us, we're going

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to measure them, lo and behold, the results were wildly different and the results were

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much, much smaller than the initial sample gave.

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This is kind of what's happening with the ex-vegan supposed dropout rate.

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If you look at the actual animal rights movement, the actual people who are in it for the animals,

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the dropout rate is tiny.

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It's less than 1% for sure.

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It happens.

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Unfortunately, it happens.

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You do get the odd animal rights activists here and there who drops out and we're still

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trying to figure out why that is.

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Well, narcissism like you mentioned earlier.

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But the point is, if you take the whole population of people who identify as vegan, who self-identify

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as vegan, yeah, the dropout rate is going to be massive, like 84, 90%, right?

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But if you look at the animal rights movement, it's less than 1% for sure.

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That's a really good point you're making.

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I want to get to an expression that I had in mind when you were talking, which is the

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vegan community.

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And we often hear it on social media.

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We talk about the vegan community.

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And I don't know, I've been vegan for about nine years now and I never felt like I was

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part of the vegan community.

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So tell me, am I just too introverted or is it something that has to do with, you know,

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is it like a buzzword?

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Like on Facebook you have friends, but they're not really your friends.

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So on social media you have the vegan community, but it's not really a community.

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Yeah, good question.

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I think we can overuse the term and in some cases there is, you know, it's not applicable.

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Maybe overall there is no vegan community as there were.

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But I think you have kind of microcosms of a vegan community, if that makes sense.

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I would certainly consider myself part of at least a vegan community in the fact that

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when I go online, there's all these people I know from social media and see in real life

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at all these events and you go on their profile and they have 300 and something mutual friends

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with you and then you click on their mutual friends and they've got all these.

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So we're all interconnected in that way.

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We know of each other.

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I mean, that is a community in that sense.

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But if you talk about vegan communities, just this giant thing spanning across the world

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and people who aren't involved in social media such as yourself.

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Yeah, that's when I guess the term can come a bit like a buzzword, as you say.

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It's kind of meaningless at that point.

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But I would consider myself part of a community online.

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I see these people as like a family of people, if anything, that, you know, I would see them

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at an event for the first time and it's like I'm not meeting them for the first time because

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I've already spoken to them hundreds of times on social media and so on.

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Yeah, because as we mentioned, this vegan has become this umbrella term covering so

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much and the health and the narcissism part is a big part of it.

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And I certainly do not feel any sense of community with that crowd.

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Something that makes a community is cooperation, a sense of wanting to help your fellow person

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and do you think that is present in the animal rights movement?

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Yeah, I think it is.

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We do look out for each other.

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The real ones do look out for each other.

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There is some toxicity, some infighting that does happen, unfortunately, and sometimes

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we don't have each other's backs.

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Sometimes there is some nastiness that goes on.

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But we do look out for each other for sure.

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You know, I've been helping out some people I've never even met recently online with some

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stuff going on in their personal lives and stuff that's deeply affecting them.

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And I want them to know that I'm here for them because I see them as my brothers and

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sisters in this fight as animal rights activists and I think we need to look out for each other.

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Maybe where I see the difference is when it's grassroots and popular, it's easier to get

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that help, that kick in the right direction.

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But as soon as you are interacting with an organization, I feel like the dynamic changes

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and it's not the same anymore.

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It gets political in a sense and you have to go through their own canals of communication

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in order to contact them or you get all of these issues around, you know, do we partner

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with this person or not?

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I don't know if I'm being clear here, but have you had that experience of interacting

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with organizations and having a sense of, oh, they're not all about cooperation and

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doing, you know, being together, this togetherness and they have their own agenda and they're

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pretty clear about it.

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So have you seen that?

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I haven't perhaps seen it in the sense that you're talking about, but I've definitely

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seen organizations pander to certain human socio-political causes that just serve as

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distractions from the animal rights movement that I think they should not be getting involved

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in.

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You would not see a human rights group suddenly stop posting about their human rights work

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in favor of animal rights.

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You wouldn't see, I don't know, a gay rights organization say, we will stop posting this

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week in memory of the dogs killed at Yulin Festival kind of thing.

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Now they can obviously be against the dogs being murdered at Yulin Festival while focusing

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on their gay rights work, but this just wouldn't happen.

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It's unthinkable that a human rights group would do this.

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In the animal rights movement, I've seen a lot of disappointing stuff.

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2020 was the worst example of this.

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I was seeing, you know, animal rights groups saying, you know, blackout Tuesday, we will

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not be posting anything today because of the murder of George Floyd or whatever.

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And it's like, BLM are doing this already.

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Like we've got to be battling against the animal Holocaust here, guys.

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This isn't like the time to be posting about human socio-political issues and saying, you

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know, you're not welcome in our group if you have this position on X and you're not posting

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about this human socio-political issue.

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So I'm definitely seeing, yes, agendas and stuff being pushed by certain animal rights

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groups from the human rights context, getting involved in things they just shouldn't really

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be speaking up on, in my opinion.

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But maybe in the sense that you're talking about, I'm not so sure.

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The thing is with organizations, it is unfortunately true that they will just do stuff sometimes

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that we aren't going to agree with or that we're going to think is a bit weird.

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But this obviously shouldn't undermine the message behind the overall existence of the

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group.

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I think one massive example of this is PETA.

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We all support PETA's aims in that it wants to end animal oppression.

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But I think every single person in the animal rights movement would still see at least one

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PETA campaign as questionable or think this isn't the right way to go about things or

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is this truly effective or does this look a bit silly?

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So I think that would just be an example I would use.

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Every single animal rights group's existence and message is what we want, but they are

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going to run some campaigns from time to time that we just see as not for us or that we

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don't agree with.

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Yeah, PETA is a good example.

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I knew someone who worked at PETA and he was not vegan.

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That was the first time I thought, okay, that's weird.

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Why are you working at PETA then?

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He was like, well, it's a good job opportunity and it's a good brand to have on your resume.

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Then I think about the biggest donors on the board of PETA and things like that.

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Most of them are not vegans.

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I question if they're truly part of the vegan movement, drivers of the vegan movement or

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representative of vegans in general.

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Yeah, that's very worrying what you've just said, to be honest.

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The fact that PETA are taking on staff who abuse animals, that's just a complete violation

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of the organization's ethics.

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It's particularly worrying because there's loads of vegans out there who want a job working

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in animal rights and who deserve a job in animal rights and they're hiring carnists

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over vegans.

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I mean, that is extremely worrying if true.

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That is absolutely something PETA needs to change from the ground up.

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They should absolutely remove all non-vegan staff members from their organization and

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replace them with vegans.

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By the way, I just want to say to anyone listening who says, well, what about if they're vegetarians?

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Vegetarianism is carnism.

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These people are playing the same role in the animal Holocaust as the meat eaters are.

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They're paying for animals to be gassed, to be stabbed in the throat and stuff once they're

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no longer of use for their egg and their milk production or their wool production.

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They're playing part in that same abuse.

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Do you allow me to get a little bit political here?

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Of course.

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I did an episode on conservatives.

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I invited two conservatives to talk about why they are vegan and identify as conservatives.

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I made the post about it looking for those conservatives on Reddit.

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I was just overwhelmed by the hostility of people toward that initiative.

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I got four versions of the same comments saying that, well, why not platform Hitler if I was

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going to platform conservatives?

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I realized how much the vegan movement on social media is biased on the left.

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I was wondering, I know you have also noticed that phenomenon.

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What do you make of it and of what it means for vegan representation online?

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Well, my question to these toxic people who are writing such comments to you, why don't

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you platform Hitler and stuff like that is how small do you want the animal rights movement

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to be?

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That would be my question to those people because I think a lot of these people are

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the very narcissists we're talking about.

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They just want to use animal rights as some kind of self-gratification thing.

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They want to build a community of people solely like them for their own human socio-political

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goals and their heart isn't truly in it for the animals.

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Most reasonable left-wing vegans, and there are plenty by the way, who see the toxicity

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of the whole woke cancel culture stuff that's happened.

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Most good left-wing vegans are just embarrassed by this behavior, can I just say.

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They would see it as absurd that someone would not want conservative vegans to come onto

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your show.

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We want conservative vegan voices.

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We want socialist vegan voices.

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We want Jewish vegan voices, Muslim vegan voices, whatever it is.

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We want everyone from every kind of ideology on the planet to actually be vegan because

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we want everyone to be vegan.

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We don't just want us to be vegan.

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This isn't just some kind of philosophy, personal choice or something like this.

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No, it's a justice movement that we want to eliminate all animal oppression from the face

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of the earth.

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I think these people are just toxic.

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One of the stupidest things I think about the idea that veganism is, these people will

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say it's a left-wing movement and this kind of stuff.

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That's an insult to the animals because 99.99999% of leftists on the face of the earth are not

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vegan.

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They're not even vegan.

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When you say veganism is a left-wing movement, it would be as ridiculous as two breakaway

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Nazis for example who said, we are Nazis but we don't agree with anti-Semitism as such

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so we're going to be against the killing of Jews.

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Those two breakaway Nazis then going on to say that being against anti-Semitism is a

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Nazi movement just because a few of them broke away.

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What I like to say is veganism is a politically neutral thing.

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If you're a left-wing person in the animal rights movement, good for you but that means

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you're a breakaway leftist because the current leftist mantra worldwide is to round up animals

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and put them in gas chambers.

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That is the leftist mantra globally.

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99% of leftists hold this position on the planet.

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Imagine what the animals would think if they could understand what these people were saying

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and say no, the movement about saving you is a left-wing movement.

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As leftists continue to herd them into gas chambers, the animals would find this offensive

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quite frankly.

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That's a very good point.

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I watched a webinar that was given by the National Lawyers Guild, the New York City

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chapter and they were talking about wildlife and about their adventures of trying to get

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their cause protection for wildlife into the political sphere.

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Getting to influence politicians of the Biden administration, the liberal ones.

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I was just discouraged just hearing them talk.

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Forget about liberals or the leftist population or base.

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Think about the leftist governments.

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They're not your allies.

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That webinar just proved how hostile they are to the animal rights cause.

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We're not even talking about factory farming here.

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We're talking about wildlife, which should be more acceptable by carnists in general.

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But now that government put so many obstacles in the way of those activists and they had

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a questionnaire at the end.

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Most people answered that the Biden administration did not make a good job at protecting wildlife.

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You're very right.

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I think one huge example of this that we saw in the run-up to the 2020 election in the

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US, the intersectional woke crowd within the vegan spaces, they were bullying other American

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vegans into voting Biden and if you vote Trump, you're not a real vegan and you're this and

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you're that and you should be outcast from the vegan movement.

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Now I don't care if you vote Biden or Trump, whatever, but do not base it on someone's

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veganness because neither are vegan, right?

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What was one of Biden's first things to do as soon as he got into office?

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He donated $1 billion to the US meat industry.

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That was one of his first acts as president of the United States.

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These people had bullied people into voting him.

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They'd said, you're not vegan if you're going to vote for Trump.

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And then Biden just pays to have God knows how many animals tortured and abused as soon

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as he gets in office.

400
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This just shows the sheer backwardsness and just entitlement of these people.

401
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And there's been no apology for it.

402
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You never hear them say, you know, hashtag I messed up kind of thing.

403
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It was just, you know, they just act like it didn't happen.

404
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And there is a great argument.

405
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I often hear the argument for veganism, you know, on the left, but there is a great argument

406
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for veganism on the right.

407
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Starting with small government, why are we subsidizing the farm industry?

408
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You know, that's a point that those conservatives brought home when I interviewed them.

409
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So why are we not doing more outreach to the conservative crowd?

410
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Absolutely.

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You're 100% right.

412
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And this is what I say about veganism.

413
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It's actually in line with everyone's principles, no matter which side of the political spectrum,

414
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no matter what your kind of philosophy on life is.

415
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Everyone believes the things they believe, not necessarily because they're evil or because

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they're a bigger or whatever it is, but because they believe that's the right things to do.

417
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So leftism is about, you know, standing up for the little guy in equality and, you know,

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being against discrimination.

419
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That's perfectly in line with veganism.

420
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That's amazing.

421
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Right-wing people, again, they're protecting innocent life in the womb.

422
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They're against, you know, big government and authoritarianism.

423
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They support liberty and freedom.

424
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Again, this aligns with vegan values.

425
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So it doesn't matter if you're left-wing or right-wing.

426
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It doesn't matter if you're, you know, a socialist or a capitalist or you're pro-life or pro-choice.

427
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Whatever your values are, the reason that you have these beliefs, if indeed you have

428
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them with good intention because you believe this is the best way for, because this is

429
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what you want for society and for whatever it is.

430
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:10,640
Those opinions you hold are perfectly in line with animal rights, with being vegan.

431
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:16,040
And it doesn't matter whether you're left-wing or right-wing, your ethical framework is consistent

432
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with being a vegan.

433
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So I think we did a great job at describing what is veganism on social media.

434
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So what it looks like and how it behaves.

435
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:40,520
Now I want to talk about, you know, the effectiveness of the vegan discourse on social media.

436
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And let me start with kind of a sensitive question.

437
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,400
Something I, you know, I joined Instagram when I launched this podcast.

438
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Before that, I did not really know what Instagram was about.

439
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And I started following animal sanctuaries and also animal rights organizations.

440
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And here I am every day looking at my feed and you have all of those sanctuaries begging

441
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for money, mostly run by ordinary people who have a job and who are doing this on their

442
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free time and on their dime.

443
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And there is a big demand for their presence.

444
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They have to refuse so many animals because they don't have enough place or resources

445
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to care for them.

446
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And they're always begging for money, having a hard time fundraising.

447
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:48,480
And then on the other hand, I see PETA, I see Mercy for Animals, I see the big animal

448
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:57,560
organizations pouring hundreds of thousands, if not millions, on their social media campaigns,

449
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on the content they produce.

450
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They have also armies of social media people on their payroll.

451
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I think the vegan society has like 10 people in communication.

452
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But I'm always asking myself, is it the right thing to put that money on marketing on social

453
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media stuff instead of animal sanctuaries and concretely saving lives?

454
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:43,360
Because there is no major study out there proving that social media, the campaigns,

455
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:50,440
vegans launch or have launched, have truly made a difference, were worth the money that

456
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,000
was spent on them.

457
00:37:53,000 --> 00:38:01,000
And I don't see why they have that confidence that they're doing the right thing and they're

458
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:08,080
willing to go large scale on social media in terms of mobilizing resources.

459
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:15,880
So it's kind of a difficult situation to witness and I want to have your thoughts on that.

460
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:21,920
Yeah, so you definitely make a great point about the sanctuaries being underfunded.

461
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:28,240
One thing though, I definitely think we shouldn't do, and I did a video about this a while back,

462
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:32,640
is we should never take what's called the crabs in a bucket mentality.

463
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:42,600
So we should never say, you know, this group isn't having it so this group shouldn't have

464
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:47,360
it either or something like that, which is what I have seen certain vegans do.

465
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,800
What the mentality should be instead is we should support sanctuaries and we should also

466
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,920
support these big organizations in getting their content out.

467
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:04,440
As for the studies, yeah, while I'm sure there is no kind of concrete study on whether these

468
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:11,800
so big expensive social media campaigns have changed amounts of people, anecdotally, we

469
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,520
do just genuinely see this every day.

470
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:19,760
You know, we look at, I don't know, if you look at like Tash Peterson's stories she uploads,

471
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,560
she's constantly getting messages and stuff saying, you know, I came across your video

472
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,360
on social media and it's changed my life.

473
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:26,360
Thank you so much.

474
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,320
Well, so we do know for sure that social media does work and change people vegan and I actually

475
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,080
think it's the leading driver of the reason that veganism has exploded this past decade

476
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,120
or however long it's been.

477
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,360
If it weren't for social media, I wouldn't be vegan myself.

478
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:47,160
I came across Gary Yourofsky's speech while surfing on Facebook in 2012.

479
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,560
I was probably eating a bacon sandwich or a pizza or a burger while I was sat there

480
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,840
on my computer and then boom, his speech came up on my newsfeed and I watched it.

481
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,400
So, I probably wouldn't even be vegan if it weren't for social media and I actually think

482
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,120
that's the case with most vegans actually.

483
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,760
I think we came to it through seeing stuff shared on social media, whether that was a

484
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,200
documentary, a speech, whatever it was.

485
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,640
So ultimately the movement needs more money in it.

486
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,160
We need it to go to sanctuaries.

487
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,240
We need it to go to individual activists so that they can actually leave their jobs and

488
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:25,320
dedicate their full time career to working in activism.

489
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,640
We need it to go to the large organizations.

490
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,560
We need it to go to the small organizations.

491
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:37,560
I just wish, you know, we're fighting against a very, very powerful entity here in the animal

492
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,040
exploitation enterprise.

493
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,720
These are multi-billion, multi-trillion dollar enterprises.

494
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:47,380
We need to have the money at our disposal to fight them and we need to have the money

495
00:40:47,380 --> 00:40:49,720
as well to help these animals at sanctuaries.

496
00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:53,200
So I mean, it sounds idealistic, doesn't it?

497
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,960
Yeah, of course we need money for all.

498
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,200
It sounds great, doesn't it?

499
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,000
But that is ultimately the deal here.

500
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,240
I think we all need funding, wherever we are, whatever we're doing in the animal rights

501
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:07,240
movement.

502
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:15,360
But let me maybe push a little bit on what you just said.

503
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:22,200
The people who reach out and say, you know, like, thank you, you've changed my life.

504
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:31,160
I decided to, you know, consider going vegan because of what you do and stuff like that.

505
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:38,040
In actuality, there's no way of verifying if what they're saying is true and if, you

506
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,280
know, it truly made that impact.

507
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:51,240
And also, would you at least concede that there is too much attention on social media

508
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:59,680
stuff instead of, you know, most people in the world are not on social media, I think.

509
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:07,120
You know, should we not try to reach them, you know, at their church, at their school

510
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:14,200
and have more of those initiatives instead of having, you know, a more prevalent presence

511
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:15,520
on social media?

512
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:16,520
Yeah.

513
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,200
So here's the thing.

514
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:25,920
When these big animal rights organizations do get a lot of funding and stuff, it is actually

515
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:27,360
put to use on the streets.

516
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:33,480
So for example, you know, Anonymous for the Voiceless or Viva or PETA or Mercy for Animals

517
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:34,480
or whatever.

518
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,000
Yeah, a lot of money will go into their social media stuff, but also a lot of that is actually

519
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,220
going directly into their street campaigns.

520
00:42:42,220 --> 00:42:44,480
So it is happening like that anyway.

521
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:45,480
But you're right.

522
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:51,320
Yeah, we don't know how many people use social media, whether it's most people in the world,

523
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:52,320
wherever it's like.

524
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,960
I know that like billions of people, there are billions and billions of social media

525
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:57,960
accounts.

526
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,720
It's just to what regularity they're being used and how many of these are bought accounts

527
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:04,920
and stuff like that.

528
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,440
But absolutely, we need to diversify our approach.

529
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:09,880
We need to be out on the streets.

530
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,080
We need to be doing campaigns.

531
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:14,500
We need to be on social media.

532
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:15,760
We need to be everywhere.

533
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:22,760
We animal, you know, carnism infiltrates every single aspect of our society.

534
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,560
And with regards to the first point you made, yeah, sure, we don't know.

535
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,840
Like, we don't have any way of kind of verifying that the person who, you know, Tash Peterson

536
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,720
shared to her story is vegan, whatever.

537
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:40,120
But at the same time, we do just know it to be true that people do go vegan as a result

538
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:41,120
of social media.

539
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,600
You know, it's just it's not like a theory or something.

540
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:49,120
We just know this to be true because this is what happened to us, to me.

541
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,320
I don't know how you came to veganism.

542
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,760
To me, it was absolutely through social media.

543
00:43:53,760 --> 00:44:00,040
And I think it was for most people that you meet in these vegan circles online, even if

544
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,360
it was them hearing about a documentary that changed their life, like Dominion or something

545
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:09,920
like that, they would have heard about that through social media, rather even than word

546
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,080
of mouth or on TV or whatever.

547
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:21,080
Well, I'm afraid, you know, I'm just thinking about are we playing, you know, the right

548
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:26,520
game or are we playing actually the game of the social media platforms?

549
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:32,840
Are we serving the social media platforms more than we are serving the vegan cause?

550
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:40,080
Because another thing about this hyperactivity on social media platforms is I think we've

551
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:45,800
created a whole anti-vegan movement.

552
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,560
And I want to have your thoughts on that.

553
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:56,400
But I really think that most anti-vegans online have just smelled the money and the time and

554
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:04,960
the resources and the energy that vegan influencers and organizations have put and decided to

555
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:13,680
just surf that wave and attach themselves and create an identity on that.

556
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:25,800
And yeah, I don't think that the anti-vegan crowd would have existed if it was not for

557
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:33,080
the hyperactivity of vegans online on social media platforms.

558
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:37,440
And I feel like this is what the social media platforms want.

559
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:47,280
They want conflict, they want drama, and they're not here to serve our interest.

560
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:57,600
So what do you think of the response to, you know, the content people have put out and

561
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,080
the reaction to the vegan message online?

562
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:09,160
Yeah, so I don't doubt that social media exacerbates these things and it creates dramas and conflicts

563
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:10,160
and stuff.

564
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:16,280
However, the sad truth about the human species is an anti-vegan movement absolutely would

565
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,520
exist whether or not social media did.

566
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:24,580
And I'll use two historical examples to prove this.

567
00:46:24,580 --> 00:46:29,360
One was the ending of black slavery in the United States.

568
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,120
There was literally a war over this.

569
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,920
This is just how much humans disgust me.

570
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,960
People actually fought for the right to keep slaves.

571
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:44,880
So there was this justice movement, the abolitionists, and half of the American population stood

572
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:53,400
up and said, no, we will not have you abolitionists force your lifestyle choices on us.

573
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,240
This is the way of the world.

574
00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:56,240
This is the way things are.

575
00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:58,120
It's the natural order of things.

576
00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:59,880
Blacks are here to serve whites.

577
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:04,200
Do not push your beliefs on us or we will fight you.

578
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,920
The other is in the UK with the suffragette movement.

579
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,040
When the suffragette started speaking up for women's rights, you know, there was lots of

580
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,760
vitriol towards women as a result of that.

581
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:20,880
And, you know, most men and even a lot of women in society were just like, who are these,

582
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:26,240
you know, hysterical, whiny women and, you know, get back in the kitchen and all this

583
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:31,360
kind of stuff and a huge anti-women movement, you know, kind of started as a result of that.

584
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:37,240
So unfortunately, yeah, while I agree with you that social media absolutely does exacerbate

585
00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:43,800
these things and put fuel on the flames, as it were, unfortunately, the bigger the vegan

586
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:49,080
movement grows, the more resistance will grow until maybe even there'll be a war over it

587
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:50,440
or something, unfortunately.

588
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:56,400
But that is where hopefully things, you know, technology like lab-grown meat and whatever

589
00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:01,560
can actually come in and hopefully we won't actually have to get to a stage like with

590
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,720
the ending of slavery in the US where there was literally a war over it.

591
00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:14,040
Do you believe that at the end social media platforms have a net positive on the vegan

592
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,600
movement?

593
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:18,600
I do.

594
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:19,960
I definitely do.

595
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:24,400
I completely understand and agree with your reasons for not being on social media.

596
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:29,480
It is a toxic place and I think you're looking after your own mental health by not being

597
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:35,280
on there and any activism that you're doing outside of social media, I highly appreciate.

598
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:42,120
But at the same time, I absolutely do think social media has a net positive on veganism

599
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:47,440
because as I say, if it weren't for social media, I wouldn't be sitting here having this

600
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,480
conversation with you right now, I'd still be abusing animals.

601
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:56,160
I would still be paying for this horrific stuff and so would so many, so, so, so many

602
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,000
people I know.

603
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:03,280
And it's through having a platform to speak.

604
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:09,560
You know, they say about social media now in the digital age, every individual is essentially

605
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:15,280
a celebrity because you can go online and you can platform your views to hundreds of

606
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:21,240
thousands, millions of people from your bedroom for doing pretty much nothing, right?

607
00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:27,360
So I mean, look at the fact that both you and I have podcasts, right?

608
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:34,520
I mean, in the, let's say the 1990s or the 80s, you or I would have to have a radio show

609
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,240
and we would have needed to have a job to get that on the radio show and stuff like

610
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:39,240
that.

611
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:43,600
Now you or I can just go online and we can actually just put our views out there to whoever's

612
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,520
listening on a podcast.

613
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,940
So I think that's very, very powerful.

614
00:49:47,940 --> 00:49:55,280
And I think social media has played a huge role in making a net positive for animals

615
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:56,280
for sure.

616
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,960
Unfortunately, as human population rises, the number of animals killed will rise just

617
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,640
naturally in line with the human population.

618
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:09,680
But without social media, I believe the number would be higher than it actually would.

619
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,440
Even if it was like China where they just banned things like Facebook and stuff, I don't

620
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:19,960
think the animal rights movement would have anywhere near as much of a chance when the

621
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:25,240
only information you're getting about animals is just through a few leaflets or through

622
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:28,840
word of mouth or from worse from the farming industry.

623
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,920
That was how people's impressions of animals were shaped back in the day.

624
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,400
It'd be the farmer who told you what happens.

625
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:39,960
Now you or I can go on Facebook or Instagram and we can show people what happens.

626
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:50,660
We can show, but are we too, not vocal, but maybe too loud about it to the point that

627
00:50:50,660 --> 00:50:58,120
we're just part of the background that the footage of animals being tortured has become

628
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:06,240
something people are not really sensitive about anymore because they have seen it so

629
00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:11,000
much in their feed.

630
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:20,440
I've heard people, sensitive, smart people say, oh yeah, I know animal rights and animals

631
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,840
are tortured and all.

632
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:32,120
For them, there was this banality to the vegan message and I attribute that 100% to social

633
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:33,120
media.

634
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:43,080
I feel like you said before, your point before, this veganism has been diminished and to more

635
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,160
of a trend.

636
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:51,360
The footage we put out in the message has been diluted because we're so too loud about

637
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:52,360
it.

638
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:58,600
Yeah, so there is obviously a danger that people can become desensitized to slaughterhouse

639
00:51:58,600 --> 00:51:59,600
footage.

640
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:03,520
You're right about that, but here's the thing.

641
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:08,240
Those people who have just watched the slaughterhouse footage and are now just like, meh, I don't

642
00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:09,240
really care about it.

643
00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:13,280
I don't think those people were going to go vegan anyway.

644
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,000
The point is about sharing these things online.

645
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,400
It's not going to get everyone, it's not going to change everyone to go vegan, but it's going

646
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,520
to change some people and that's a start.

647
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,720
It's better than nothing.

648
00:52:23,720 --> 00:52:27,520
In any case, there's different forms of activism we can do.

649
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:34,440
We can upload outreach reels of ourselves, just us on the streets talking to people.

650
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:36,240
These we're seeing have results.

651
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:37,680
These are changing people.

652
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:43,400
We can make written posts.

653
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:47,920
I just want to tell you how powerful this is.

654
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:53,720
One or two posts that I've just written on Facebook have been shared by mainstream media.

655
00:52:53,720 --> 00:53:02,160
They've been shared by The Guardian or shared on this newspaper article I saw in Croatia.

656
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:10,920
Just me writing a post about what's happening to animals and comparing it to our societal

657
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,940
speciesism.

658
00:53:13,940 --> 00:53:18,760
The fact that I was able to do that, just sit at my computer in my bedroom or something

659
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:24,880
and type that up and that's gone into mainstream media and potentially change people, that's

660
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:25,880
incredible.

661
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:30,760
That was without showing a single piece of slaughterhouse footage.

662
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,720
It's not that slaughterhouse footage online is the be all and end all of it.

663
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:41,040
Yes, it might desensitize some people, but it's also going to change some people and

664
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:46,920
also you don't necessarily have to see the slaughterhouse footage to be convinced of

665
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:47,920
the vegan message.

666
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:55,440
I know people who are vegan that have never seen slaughterhouse footage in their life.

667
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,080
It's different strokes for different folks.

668
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,880
We need to try all these different approaches.

669
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:08,900
I hear you and I'm getting the message that you think the animal rights movement and veganism

670
00:54:08,900 --> 00:54:18,360
as a whole, at least its modern form, you cannot detach it from social media.

671
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:26,920
It is like a limb of this movement now.

672
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,440
Am I right on that perception?

673
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,640
Yeah, maybe you are.

674
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:38,600
That's not to say every single activist has to have social media.

675
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:47,120
But I think that there's always something that we can do on social media.

676
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:51,960
I do think that without it, the animal rights movement would be severely harmed.

677
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:57,680
I think that we don't really live in the age of word of mouth anymore.

678
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,360
Everyone gets their information online now.

679
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,780
So I think it's very important that we have a presence online.

680
00:55:04,780 --> 00:55:07,440
We have to have a big presence online.

681
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:08,800
People are on YouTube all day.

682
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:09,800
People are on Facebook.

683
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:10,880
People are on Instagram.

684
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:11,880
People are on TikTok.

685
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:16,080
It's the one that a lot of the kids are on.

686
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,920
Without a presence on these platforms, what are these people left watching?

687
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,240
It's just going to be pro meat propaganda.

688
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:27,440
So I would rather, and I'm sure you would rather as well, that people go online and

689
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:32,920
instead of seeing the laughing cow cheese advert and the company telling you, buy our

690
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:38,400
delicious laughing cow cheese with the happy cows in the field, they're seeing a vegan

691
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,720
meme or something that says, you know, laughing cow, are you sure about that?

692
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:47,600
And a mother cow being tortured and having her baby taken away.

693
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:57,100
Well, as someone who is not distrustful, very much distrustful of social media platforms,

694
00:55:57,100 --> 00:56:08,800
it scares me to hear that the vegan message depends on those platforms and those big companies

695
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,320
like Facebook.

696
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:16,440
Yeah, I guess it is just a sign of the times.

697
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:24,160
Ultimately, we're all going to need to use forms of media that we might dislike in some

698
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,360
way in order to push the message.

699
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:32,720
I mean, I hate TikTok, for example, but I begrudgingly got a TikTok account a few years

700
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:36,880
back and hey, one of the videos I made on there got half a million views and potentially

701
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:38,440
changed a lot of people.

702
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,400
So the point is we have to use whatever it is.

703
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,720
I make the same analogy with money, for example.

704
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:49,880
I know vegans who are against a monetary system at all.

705
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,040
So they're not just anti-capitalist.

706
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:53,280
They're literally anti-money.

707
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:59,280
They think money shouldn't exist, but while money does exist, they say, look, this is

708
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,320
the world we're in and we need to have money in the animal rights movement.

709
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:09,640
So my analogy would be to think of it like money is to someone who's against money.

710
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:14,280
Yes, you might be against money, but you're going to need it in a world that has money.

711
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:19,840
So I'll just say to anyone who is against, like yourself, who finds it rightfully scary

712
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:25,800
that maybe our message absolutely depends on having a presence on these big corporations.

713
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,560
Yeah, this is unfortunately the world that we're stuck in.

714
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:33,120
This is the world that we live in and that's just the system we've got to deal with.

715
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:37,400
I would love to live in a world where we didn't have to push the animal rights message on

716
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,560
social media, but that is just the world we are dealt with.

717
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,520
I don't like these companies either, the same as you.

718
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:48,400
I don't like the way that a lot of these companies operate.

719
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:58,760
Do you feel like the social media world is overcrowded with vegan initiatives and that

720
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:08,080
people should consider more to get out of them or look at what kind of contribution

721
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:12,880
they can make on social media, but through a very critical lens, like what can you add

722
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,400
to the conversation actually?

723
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:22,680
Yeah, I think ultimately that my very simple answer to this would just be to do both.

724
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,300
There are lots of things we can be doing off social media.

725
00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:32,280
One thing I would say in social media's defence to such campaigns is it adds weight and validity

726
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:38,080
to our arguments, a bit of credibility, when people see that masses of people support this

727
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:39,120
action.

728
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:45,160
So what these social media campaigns can do is they can show online all the people who

729
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:46,920
have signed this petition and stuff.

730
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,360
Of course you can do that off social media as well.

731
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:53,280
You can use good old fashioned pen and paper petitions and stuff like that, the push to

732
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:54,280
end things.

733
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:58,840
I did a campaign recently like this in Bristol.

734
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:03,480
There's these plans to set up a horrible octopus farm in Spain.

735
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:08,480
We got people signing pen and paper on the street to put an end to that.

736
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:13,400
But ultimately I think social media still plays its role.

737
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:17,880
So yeah, social media I'm not saying is the be all and end all of everything.

738
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:28,320
I mean anyone who went vegan before 2004, ergo social media played literally no role

739
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,680
because it didn't exist back then.

740
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:37,160
But the explosion of vegans that we've seen now is due to social media I guess.

741
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:43,840
So I think we can do both and I definitely respect any work that you're doing off of

742
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,960
social media because that's what I'm doing also.

743
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:52,760
I'm doing activism out on the streets every month and doing stuff that doesn't involve

744
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:54,800
social media.

745
00:59:54,800 --> 01:00:03,440
So there are so many ways to play our part and as I say, carnism infiltrates every aspect

746
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,660
of our society that there is.

747
01:00:05,660 --> 01:00:12,680
So we've got to be versed in using different strategies.

748
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:20,020
So this podcast is all about actions and encouraging people to take action.

749
01:00:20,020 --> 01:00:25,720
What has been your journey and why did you decide to be more than a passive vegan?

750
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:33,880
Yeah, so I first went vegan in 2013 and that was after seeing Gary Yerufsky's speech in

751
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:38,120
late 2012, so the best speech you'll ever hear.

752
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:42,720
And I thought that, I always thought from the start that it would just be absurd to

753
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:47,520
sort of just sit there in silence while the animals scream in pain.

754
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:52,800
This just seems like a completely absurd view to me.

755
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:58,920
So I'm always wondering why any vegan, so called vegan, would have the view that we

756
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:03,080
should just sit there in silence as the atrocity continues.

757
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:08,160
Carnism is a justice movement, it's not just some mundane, trivial kind of dietary preference

758
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:13,920
or your favourite colour or something like that or how you style your hair.

759
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:19,720
Carnism has victims and we need to actually speak up for these victims.

760
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:25,280
So that was why I always had this feeling from the start that we actually need to do

761
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:29,820
something because if I was in the animal's position I'd want someone to do something

762
01:01:29,820 --> 01:01:31,100
as well.

763
01:01:31,100 --> 01:01:34,280
So I guess that's been my story.

764
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:38,880
And why did you decide to make that contribution on social media?

765
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:45,880
Is it because you were convinced, like you said before, by something on social media,

766
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:46,880
on YouTube?

767
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:52,000
Yeah, I think it was just the most practical and easy way to get my message out there to

768
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:55,360
such a large number of people.

769
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:56,360
It's paid off.

770
01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:01,800
I have a sizeable platform now on social media just from espousing my views on there.

771
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:10,880
All it took was me back in 2014, 15, whenever it was, just writing these Facebook statuses

772
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:15,560
and setting them on public and having a few friends that I'd never met in the world before

773
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:20,080
across the vegan community and suddenly your friend list builds up and all this kind of

774
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:21,080
stuff.

775
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:26,300
And from there, suddenly my posts were just being shared all around social media and seeing

776
01:02:26,300 --> 01:02:28,840
God knows how many people in the world.

777
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:38,760
This was just a great, great way to get my message out there using my abilities to write

778
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:43,440
arguments clearly and concisely, which is something that I've just been good at.

779
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:51,680
Like I studied English at university, so it's just something that I'm good at, I guess,

780
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:59,440
formulating, I'm good with words and convincing people through written argumentation.

781
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:03,880
And this was a very, very effective way to channel my abilities.

782
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:07,880
We should all do activism in a way that we have some kind of talent at.

783
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:11,200
Like if you're a talented musician, you should make songs about animal rights.

784
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:16,820
If you're a talented artist, you should do animal rights art.

785
01:03:16,820 --> 01:03:23,680
If you know how to infiltrate a place, you should go out into the concentration camps

786
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:27,520
and liberate those animals from their oppression.

787
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:33,080
So we all need to play our part in a way that suits our abilities.

788
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:38,400
I guess when I first became vegan, social media was just a fantastic way for me to get

789
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,880
my message out there to huge numbers of people.

790
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:50,000
And what do you say to vegans who don't correspond to the profile of most vegans we see on social

791
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:51,000
media?

792
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:56,520
Maybe they're conservative and they're afraid of making their voice heard on social media

793
01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:05,640
platforms because you're someone who dares speaking his mind, whatever the consequences

794
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:06,880
and the response.

795
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:10,800
So what kind of advice would you have to that person?

796
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:15,280
First thing I'd say to them is don't worry, I've got your back.

797
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:21,680
So if anyone out there is afraid of coming on and speaking their mind just because they

798
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:26,920
believe they'll be attacked because they're a conservative, whatever it is, don't worry.

799
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:30,900
The vegan movement isn't completely full of these unreasonable people.

800
01:04:30,900 --> 01:04:35,040
There are perfectly reasonable people like myself who will support your content and who

801
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:39,080
will be there for you if you come under a mob attack.

802
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:44,240
But look, if you want to make changes in the world, it's not going to be comfortable.

803
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:50,280
I think people think that activism is meant to be some kind of easy ride and they're not

804
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,320
going to get any resistance.

805
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:58,120
When you're an activist of any kind, you're going to get resistance outside and even inside

806
01:04:58,120 --> 01:04:59,600
your own movement.

807
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:05,320
So if you're going to make any kind of positive change in the world at all, you can't go in

808
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,680
just expecting that it's going to be an easy ride.

809
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:12,320
So if you're a conservative vegan or whatever it is that you think, oh, I don't know if

810
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:17,120
this is for me because people might, vegans might turn on me online.

811
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:23,480
Well, okay, I mean, look at the civil rights movement in the US, even MLK and Malcolm X

812
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:24,920
didn't even like each other.

813
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:29,880
And there was constant war of words, infighting going on there.

814
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:33,320
So don't worry about the stuff like infighting and stuff.

815
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:37,840
Don't let that push put you off from making your voice heard.

816
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:42,200
If you, if you have the truth, speak it, it needs to be spoken.

817
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:47,440
It's an injustice to remain silent in the face of oppression.

818
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,040
Well said.

819
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:58,200
So George, did you have anything more to say to add to this conversation before I end the

820
01:05:58,200 --> 01:05:59,200
recording?

821
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,680
No, I think that's all good.

822
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:04,080
Thank you so much, Ryan, for having me on the show.

823
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:09,520
And yeah, I really enjoyed the discussion and I look forward to listen to this as well

824
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:11,520
as your other podcasts.

825
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:17,280
So yeah, thank you for having me on and yeah, I'll be sharing it to my audience as well.

826
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:22,800
Well, thank you, George, for having accepted my invitation and thank you for your work

827
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,080
online and offline.

828
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:26,960
Thank you everyone for listening.

829
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:31,300
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

830
01:06:31,300 --> 01:06:34,320
Let's encourage more people to take action.

831
01:06:34,320 --> 01:07:02,880
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.