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Good morning Vietnam!

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Hello everyone, this is Ryan and you are listening to the Vegan Report.

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Last August I posted an episode featuring Catherine Besh, the founder of Vietnam Animal

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Aid and Rescue.

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And what is Vietnam Animal Aid and Rescue?

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Well, it's an animal sanctuary in the middle of a country, Vietnam, where the dog and cat

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meat trade is thriving, where most veterinarians have close to no veterinary knowledge, where

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you have one of the highest rates of antibiotic resistance in the world due to the overuse

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of antimicrobial drugs on farm animals.

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It is basically an animal rights hellscape.

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Which makes the work of Vietnam Animal Aid and Rescue crazy hard, but also essential.

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I am re-uploading the episode now because this wonderful organization urgently needs

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your support.

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They are in the red and I want to do my very best to keep their doors open as lives are

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at stake.

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I truly hope that this conversation inspires you to also take action and become a friend

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of Vietnam Animal Aid and Rescue.

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You can make a donation now by following the link in the description below.

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Let's dive right in.

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My first question for you is what circumstances led you to live in Vietnam?

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Yeah, it's sort of a strange story.

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This was all totally unintended experience to run an animal rescue in Vietnam.

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Basically Vietnam is something I've always grown up with though.

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My dad was a Marine officer in Vietnam who was shot in 1966.

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And he was then, he and my mother came back in the CIA in 1971 to 73.

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So I'm actually a legacy in Vietnam.

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This is the country I've known about since I was born.

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My dad used his time in the CIA, my mom in the US embassy, they use it as a shopping

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trip essentially because the government has to bring home all your household goods.

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And so my house was surrounded by Vietnamese furniture, Vietnamese art, Vietnamese ceramics,

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Vietnamese everything.

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And so like I was the four year old who could find Vietnam on a map and it's just always

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been like that.

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And so my parents are quite older, quite a bit as parents, quite a bit older.

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And so they, I kind of, they were getting older and I had left Mongolia the year before.

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It was horribly cold.

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If you're wondering, it's the coldest capital city in the world, Ulaanbaatar.

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And I was like, you know what, I need some sunshine.

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And this is a time in my parents' life where I want them to see what had happened to the

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country they loved so much.

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I brought, and I wanted to kind of bring that experience to them before they died.

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We're not real close as a family, but I thought this was something that would bring that to

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us.

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And I mean, it didn't really work exactly, but I, but I came and I fell in love with

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the place.

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I planned to stay only six months.

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I was doing my master's degree in disaster management online.

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And so I could kind of be anywhere in the world and I really wanted to follow international

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disasters.

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But Vietnam to me didn't like, it wasn't volcanoes and earthquakes, but we have seasonal flooding.

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And so I kind of took that as I, okay, well, this is my disaster to write about.

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I got typhoons and flooding.

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I'm kind of looking at how that, how that works in the developing world and, and how

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global south and, and, and that's just kind of what kept me here initially was that I

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was able to, to kind of sustain myself with my master's degree and some freelance writing

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while I was here.

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And then poof, I ended up with an animal rescue for the past decade and I never left.

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Yeah.

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Oops.

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Well, for someone who doesn't know much about Vietnam, how would you describe the place?

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Gorgeous.

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This is gorgeous.

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It's, it's a really beautiful and extremely green country.

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And the food is as a vegan is in my opinion, the best in the world.

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I haven't been to some countries that are known for their vegan food like Ethiopia as

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well.

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But, but I can guarantee you that we have, we have our, you know, we're pretty damn good

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here.

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So eating is definitely not a problem.

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I would say Vietnam is full of extremely friendly people.

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They call Thailand the land of smiles, which I think is crap.

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I don't think anybody smiles there.

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You come to Vietnam and you can see that they're just like a really friendly, outgoing sort

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of people.

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I think it's just warm.

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They're generally just really warm.

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I don't know.

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It's kind of, it's diverse.

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It's a very diverse country and people don't really give it that much credit for being

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so.

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I mean, we have four climate zones in the country.

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So that alone should show you that there is quite a bit of diversity.

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You know, like the North, it's typhoon season, for example, you know, and we won't get ours

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until October.

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And like, you know, it just kind of varies throughout the year.

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So, so yeah, I think the diversity, the mountains, everything are just really different, but

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it is very beautiful country and it never, I never stopped being surprised.

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You know, I think there's always more to discover just getting on my motorbike and driving into

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the mountains.

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And I always feel a sense of wonder here.

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There's no escape from that.

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One of my very best friend, her boyfriend is Vietnamese and she recently visited Vietnam

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and she showed me some of the pictures of the place.

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And I was like, I need to visit this place.

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It's so it's, you know, there are beaches, there are the foods, like you said, looks

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so yummy.

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We don't suffer for food.

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I can tell you that.

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Yeah.

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I mean, like, I don't want to paint a perfect picture though.

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Okay.

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Let me, let me, let me wipe the shine off what I just said real fast.

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Okay.

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It is a single party state with not an independent judiciary.

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It is highly oppressive to its own citizens.

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It is heavily censored.

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There are a lot of things.

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If you are a Vietnamese citizen, you are not living a great life in all cases.

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I mean, they are considered one of the happiest people in the world though, which is interesting.

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But as far as like having any, any, any ability to be part of the democratic process, that's

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not really a thing.

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It's very rare to be, to have anybody involved in the political situation here.

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That's not like already a suit.

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I call them suits, you know, the people, the people in suits, you know.

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So it's not particularly egalitarian in a lot of ways.

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I think women, you know, domestic violence is prevalent.

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I think animal abuse obviously is something that's a problem or I wouldn't be doing this.

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I think there's a lot of things that are negative about the traffic can be horrible.

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The honking is annoying.

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The karaoke makes me want to kill myself.

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There, you know, like I love to hate Vietnam and I hate to love it.

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It is my home in every possible sense.

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But, but it's not, it's not all shiny and pretty.

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I'm not going to, I'm not going to lie about that.

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I live a parallel existence as a foreigner in many ways because we're kind of to, to

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Vietnam, we're a bit of like walking ATMs being that we have a lot of cash to input

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as foreigners into the system.

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I have a, I have a fully foreign owned business license.

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So there, there's a lot of things that give me privileges that I wouldn't have otherwise

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if I were actually from here.

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So I don't, I, it's important to recognize the bad with the good.

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Yes.

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Well, you know, I had the view of a tourist, basically someone who was, you know, planning

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my vacation and thinking about Vietnam.

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But you know, even when I travel and I have traveled in many places around the world,

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I have every time witnessed a lot of displays of animal cruelty, you know, exotic, exotic

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animals on leashes in South America.

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I visited Greece.

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I was shocked by the number of dogs just in Athens, you know, their capital city welcoming

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you every time you went on a stroll.

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And yeah, Turkey and, and the cat situation there, you know, I was thinking about my time

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in Turkey and with the number of cats outside, I wonder how are the birds doing there?

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You know, they must be, no.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I mean, I'd say the same for Greece.

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I mean, those are probably, Italy is the same population, a high population of domestic

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cats.

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People are not sterilizing them.

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I mean, there are a lot of organizations in Greece at least because they've got a lot

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more help because they're in that part of Europe.

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But, and they have a lot of tourists and they have, you know, still in spite of all of Greece's

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economic problems, they still have a lot of people that are, that are putting money into

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those projects, including one of our staff, our director of operations.

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She lives in Greece and she does TNRs, Trap, Neuter, Release of cats.

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And so she's trying to help with getting that population down, but it's an endless cycle

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and there's not a lot.

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I mean, it's just so much work to keep that population down.

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And I believe those initiatives are the exception and not the rule.

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Yes, absolutely.

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Cause there's still so many people, I was out trapping with her.

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I love cat trapping.

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I used to do it in Alabama.

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And when I was living there and it is, it's frustrating because a lot of people think that

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it's unnatural to sterilize animals.

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They still have that very traditional and conservative mindset that it's just like,

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we shouldn't sterilize animals because we are taking away their natural right to give

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birth.

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And we try to explain to them when they were trying to prevent suffering and whatever.

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And this happened, this just happened, I guess in the past couple of weeks here as well,

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trying to sterilize a dog.

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And the guy was like, no, we just want her to have puppies again and again and again.

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And I give the puppies to my friend.

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And so we weren't allowed to free sterilization.

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We weren't allowed to do it.

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He's not interested in the wellbeing of the animal.

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He's interested in making sure that he is capitalizing upon another's reproductive system,

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just like you would in say the dairy industry or any other industry, breeding horses, for

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example, or breeding dogs.

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It doesn't really matter.

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It's all kind of part of the same vein of exploitation.

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Every time I witnessed those displays of cruelty toward animals or just, you know, bad, just

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neglect of the animal population.

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When we're talking about, like you said, cats or dogs, I was, what frustrated me the most

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was the feeling of being powerless.

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You know, it's not my country.

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I don't understand this country.

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I don't know how to help those animals.

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And even if I had, you know, the will to do so, I can't, you know, I'm going to leave

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in a few days.

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I mean, this is an impossible situation.

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So I just have to close my eyes, to look away, to just be in denial of what's happening.

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It's really hard.

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I live in a tourist town.

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It's the same thing.

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We get all these messages from people saying, I found this kitten on the side of the road.

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I'm leaving tomorrow.

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What can you take the kitten?

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No.

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Well, I mean, we can't because you're one of nine this week that have sent me that message.

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And I know you feel powerless and helpless and whatever, but like I don't own an island

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to put all these cats on.

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Let's get this straight.

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There is just no place for them to go.

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And you have to get used to the idea that you can't help everybody.

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And I think that's one of the worst parts of being a compassionate and empathetic person

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is being able to close your eyes and say, I understand the big picture.

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I'm doing everything I can on a daily basis, particularly as vegans to eliminate my part

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in exploitation, torture and murder.

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And that's bigger than what everybody else around here is doing.

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So you can't help every single individual.

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There's not the resources or the homes or the space or the veterinarians.

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And it just isn't like that.

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I mean, I can say that after 10 years running a rescue, but ultimately it is what led me

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to run a rescue.

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This idea of like, I'm not going to stand for this.

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I won't stand for this.

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I will do something.

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I am somebody who can do something.

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Well, I want to ask you about that because you did something and I want to know how did

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it start?

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How did the feelings of wanting to do something translated into actions?

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Coffee.

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Yeah, coffee.

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It's extremely strong here.

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This stuff's like jet fuel.

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Yeah, no, I mean, it really is.

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If you just go to your local Asian market, pick up some Vietnamese coffee and you won't

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even have to ask that question.

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This stuff is like, it's like, I don't know.

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It's stronger than your average cocaine.

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Yeah.

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It really messes with your idea of like, it makes you feel like a superhero.

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You know, it's a little bit like, yeah, it makes you feel like you can fly a little bit.

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And start an animal rescue.

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And like for that, I deeply regret that.

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But no, I mean, like at the time, you know, I'd been here six months, I guess I'd been

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here a year before, almost a year before I started the organization.

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I lived in one city for six months and then I came to Hoi An for six months and I had

240
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:37,320
met some people.

241
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,480
I met another girl who was willing to start a rescue with me.

242
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:41,840
I was like, we've got to do something.

243
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,000
She had like four cats at the time and people kept giving me animals.

244
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,160
So I ended up with all these animals and I'm just like, because I'm just somebody who's

245
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:50,600
always taking care of animals.

246
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:57,520
I used to work with horses for, you know, 20 years and then now I've got this whole

247
00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:58,520
thing going on.

248
00:14:58,520 --> 00:14:59,520
This is just what I do.

249
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,840
I'm just the person that people give animals to.

250
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,480
I've always been like that, even when I was just a little kid.

251
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:12,040
And so I kind of had this moment, there was this dog, Blair, who's still with us now and

252
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:19,120
she was on the side of the road and she was mostly bald and she just was laying there.

253
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,540
And I have this picture of her that I'll never forget.

254
00:15:21,540 --> 00:15:23,320
And she was terrified.

255
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,680
And I just was like, you know what?

256
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,160
No, no, not today.

257
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,160
I'm done.

258
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:30,160
I'm done.

259
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:31,480
I'm done looking at this stuff and driving by.

260
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,840
I can't do this anymore.

261
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,720
And so the reason I started the organization was like, I realized that I couldn't afford

262
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,000
a vet bill like that.

263
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,440
This was going to be out of control and we needed to have some sort of public funding

264
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:46,660
for this.

265
00:15:46,660 --> 00:15:50,480
So I took her to the vet.

266
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,080
She was there for like a week, paid the vet bill.

267
00:15:53,080 --> 00:16:00,120
And then within the next couple of weeks, we put the organization on Facebook and we

268
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:01,120
kind of got started.

269
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,920
And then we had a fundraising party and got some money and just kind of it went from there.

270
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,480
I had no idea how far it would go.

271
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:16,400
I had no clue that it would end up just being we would be bombarded with animals over the

272
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:21,000
next couple of years, particularly because we were the only people in the area doing

273
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,840
anything.

274
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:30,120
Central Vietnam, there was one foreign owned rescue in Saigon, but there was still none

275
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,800
in Hanoi and there was none in central Vietnam.

276
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,480
And we were just like, we were it.

277
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,200
And so and so we just ended up being bombarded with animals.

278
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,200
Most of them were dying anyway, and the vets were absolute garbage.

279
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,760
And so they couldn't help us much.

280
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,840
I luckily had worked with vets by working with horses.

281
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,760
You know, working with horses is not the same saving kittens, by the way.

282
00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,360
I mean, the principles are kind of the same, but you essentially have to become a pharmacist

283
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,280
slash drug lord.

284
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,360
You've got to be able to you've got to be able to and we can get all of our we can get

285
00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:07,840
everything over the counter here.

286
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,880
You don't have to have a prescription for anything so we can get our antibiotics.

287
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:16,840
And as long as you've got a formulary for your dosages and can Google it.

288
00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:21,560
Basically I was a Google vet because there's a lot of things that the veterinarian knew

289
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:22,560
nothing about.

290
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:23,560
Nothing.

291
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,720
No, it wasn't that he knew nothing.

292
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,160
It's that he made up shit.

293
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,840
And that made it much, much worse.

294
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,000
So it was it was horrendous.

295
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,520
So within the first year, I was like, we've got to start our own vet project because it

296
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:39,520
was just so bad.

297
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:44,040
Well, let's start first about the state of animal welfare in Vietnam.

298
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:49,880
You know, the reason why you felt like you needed to create your organization.

299
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,760
So you talked about the care, you know, the health care of animals.

300
00:17:54,760 --> 00:18:02,840
Why are the vets in Vietnam not skilled to deal with the current situation or were with

301
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,800
anything that has to do with, you know, giving health care to animals?

302
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:13,360
I mean, the connection we can't ever eliminate that connection between the public health

303
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:15,440
care system and the veterinary industry.

304
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:16,440
Right.

305
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,840
People like to divorce the two and they think they're completely separate.

306
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,440
And I think that's just ridiculous.

307
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,240
We're doing that to our own detriment.

308
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,300
So we're like 98th in the world and public health care.

309
00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:27,840
It's not a good place to be.

310
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,160
It's not a great ranking.

311
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,400
Just the general health care of the humans in this country is pretty bad.

312
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:41,200
So when we talk about like being able to have animals get decent health care, you're starting

313
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:48,000
from a horrible system that simply like they just don't understand pharmacology.

314
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:49,000
They just don't.

315
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,360
I mean, we have the second highest antibiotic resistance in the world.

316
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:55,920
It's not, I mean, they'll give antibiotics out like TikToks.

317
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:56,920
Wow.

318
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:02,200
I mean, like, well, explain that for people, for people who don't know what it is.

319
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:03,200
Great.

320
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:08,320
So antibiotic resistance is basically you're, you know, there's all these bacteria that

321
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,960
are becoming used to all the antibiotics that we're giving, giving them.

322
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,880
And so they evolve.

323
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,320
They evolve to be resistant to them.

324
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,240
And if you keep giving antibiotics for all these bacteria, what happens is that you're

325
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,560
just going to end up with antibiotic resistance.

326
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:31,320
And that becomes a huge problem for hospitals and for people and for animals and the entire

327
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,040
ecosystem for that matter.

328
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,200
It's not limited to just humans and doggies and kitties.

329
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,920
It goes far beyond that, particularly when we're talking about farmed animals and going

330
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,960
into the food system and all of that.

331
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:52,400
I mean, you know, that means if you hurt yourself and it's infected, we can't cure that normal.

332
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,360
You know, normal treatment will not have any effects because the bacteria is causing the

333
00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:01,280
infection are resistant to any kind of drugs we have out there.

334
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,920
It is absolutely, it's absolutely apocalyptic.

335
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,920
You know, people aren't realizing that.

336
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:12,480
And I mean, predominantly the over antibiotic use is in the animal agriculture industries.

337
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,880
So I mean, we do it with people here too, but the animals and they're all getting it

338
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:19,960
way more than the people are even.

339
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:28,120
And of course that just creates this massive antibiotic resistant like playground in farms

340
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:29,120
and things like that.

341
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:33,160
So, but it's the only way people know how to cure anything because the conditions are

342
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:34,160
all really dirty.

343
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,280
So basic sanitation is just something they don't understand.

344
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,840
When we had our vet clinic and eventually what happened was we had to open our own vet

345
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:42,840
clinic.

346
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:44,560
It was just a matter of like time.

347
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,360
I mean, I saw a vet give a cesarean section without any anesthesia and I was like, you

348
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:50,360
know what?

349
00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:51,360
I'm actually done with this crap.

350
00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:52,360
I'm not going back there.

351
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:53,360
This is really fucked up.

352
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:54,360
Pardon my French.

353
00:20:54,360 --> 00:21:03,120
So, so I, so I, I, we went kind of all in on the veterinary project and we hired a veterinary

354
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:09,800
intern who had never learned how to wash your hands, who had never seen the inside of an

355
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:17,280
animal dead or alive, who had been in veterinary school for five years, mind you, had only

356
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,520
five years, never seen the inside of an animal dead or alive, never did any anatomy work,

357
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,880
never did anything like that, never watched a surgery.

358
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,520
She'd never seen a cat neutered.

359
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:31,160
Did you ever, did you ever ask her what she did during those five years?

360
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:32,160
Oh yeah.

361
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,520
I mean, it was predominantly things like, like studying chemistry and microbiology.

362
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,560
It was kind of like, like in the U S we have like, you have to get a science degree and

363
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:41,800
then you go to vet school.

364
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:48,000
It was kind of like all those little things, but just books that, you know, like the veterinary

365
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,480
books and that were in their veterinary library, which was tiny, it was like smaller than my

366
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,440
tiny house.

367
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,780
They were all from like decades and decades and decades ago.

368
00:21:58,780 --> 00:22:01,680
And only one was, I remember looking through her library.

369
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,080
There was one that was on canine surgery in English, of course, where nobody spoke any

370
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,080
English, which is hilarious.

371
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,240
And the book was written in 1955.

372
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:15,600
That was their most recent book on canine surgery, 1955.

373
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,840
I don't know about you, but we, I think, I think we can imagine that there's a lot that

374
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,160
has changed since 1955 and canine surgery.

375
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:32,040
So, so that was, that was a telltale of like a really poor education system.

376
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,320
I've heard now that the better edu, the better universities are doing things like they have

377
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,600
to be able to do a sterilization before they leave the university.

378
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:44,920
But frankly, nobody's learning proper sedation protocols at all.

379
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,880
They're just not getting it.

380
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:53,920
Their understanding of basic animal anatomy and biology is piss poor, to say the least.

381
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,520
But their practical skills, they don't have any animal handling skills.

382
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:02,880
They fundamentally don't believe that pain management is something that should be discussed.

383
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:08,200
And it's not because they're bad people, predominantly the people going into veterinary medicine

384
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,040
or those that are, that are going to work in the animal agriculture industry.

385
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,920
So they're going to be either paper pushers in the animal health department that are putting

386
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:23,240
their stamp at slaughterhouses or they're working in the pharmaceutical industry, which

387
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:29,320
is basically just making antibiotics to keep farmed animals alive until we murder them.

388
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,160
So you're not really learning like basic care.

389
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:33,840
So it's not even just cats and dogs.

390
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,880
I mean, you have to look quite holistically at the veterinary industry and where it's

391
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,920
failures are.

392
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:45,320
But I think in the beginning, I didn't really understand how bad that was.

393
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,640
I knew practically how they were failing, but I mean, they fundamentally didn't, you

394
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:54,080
know, my vet here did not understand the difference between a steroid and an antibiotic in its

395
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,560
function and, and, and applications.

396
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,840
And it just, that's a big deal.

397
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,240
You know, I'm astonished.

398
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:09,880
I'm really big because you know, I have a cat and she's old and I don't know what I

399
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:15,760
would do if I did not have, you know, her vet and yeah.

400
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:23,440
And thinking about, you know, the whole animal industry, they rely a lot on vets.

401
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:31,520
And so you have a whole, you know, the frontline, the, the, the frontline information is wrong.

402
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:32,520
Yes.

403
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:33,520
So what do you do?

404
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,400
And not only that, you have to put it in perspective of how Vietnamese culture works in terms of

405
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:38,640
hierarchy.

406
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:44,000
So they're very much like, there's a lot of deference towards people of a higher rank,

407
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,000
right?

408
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,760
And so their ranking is like, okay, well, you have a doctor, doctor's degree.

409
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,880
So you are the word of God and I'm not going to question you.

410
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,560
Doctors, veterinarians here won't even tell you what medication they're giving your animals.

411
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,000
They'll be like, oh, they have a liver infection and they get, and I'm giving him an injection.

412
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,000
Injection of what?

413
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,000
Right.

414
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,640
So they just won't tell you that because that would make them lose face and they don't want

415
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,880
to give away the information so that you'll just go to another vet and tell them what

416
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,400
they, what they've done.

417
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,800
So it is very like, it's really sick in that way.

418
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,160
And that's true in a lot of parts of the global South in terms of the, and the public health

419
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,100
system is exactly the same.

420
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:24,000
They won't tell you what they're giving you.

421
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,760
They won't give you information.

422
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,600
They're just like, I am, I am the doctor.

423
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,200
This is the word of God.

424
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,160
And this is what's going, this is what it comes out of my mouth.

425
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,540
And so it must be right.

426
00:25:35,540 --> 00:25:41,880
Do not make me lose face by asking any questions or by questioning my ability to provide you

427
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,380
with great care.

428
00:25:43,380 --> 00:25:47,600
So if nobody's asking you questions and if they do ask questions, they'll just make something

429
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,600
up if they don't know the answer, which is most of the time.

430
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,080
So those pet owners, those people that really want to help their animals are not able to

431
00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:00,280
help their animals because the veterinarians aren't, aren't capable of providing just that

432
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:01,280
basic care.

433
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,880
And their, their information is, is so like, it's, it's the last word.

434
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:07,880
Right.

435
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,280
So, so there's, it's kind of a give and take sort of situation that just won't improve

436
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,440
until the veterinary industry itself improves.

437
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,280
And people are like, you should rescue animals and you should give, you know, help more animals

438
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:23,760
with who, with who specifically, with what vets did you intend for me to rescue all these

439
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:24,760
animals?

440
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,320
Because the first few years or two years before we opened the vet clinic was all about just

441
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:34,320
like having all these animals that we were watching die from things that were, that could

442
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,840
have been treated because we simply didn't have the veterinarians that knew how to deal

443
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:44,240
with it, could diagnose or talk to us even about what was going on.

444
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,400
You know, we had hardly any diagnostics and if you don't have diagnostics, you don't have

445
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:49,400
treatment.

446
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,400
Okay.

447
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,680
Like it begins with like, you have a blood machine.

448
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,320
Well, do you know how much a blood machine costs?

449
00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:00,240
No, you don't have a blood machine, but could you do a blood smear?

450
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,000
Could you look at it under the microscope and give us some answers?

451
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,680
Well, they don't know what they're looking at.

452
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:05,880
They weren't taught that.

453
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:06,880
Right.

454
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:07,880
So you're not going to get it.

455
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,400
You're going to get sort of a vague, oh, they got a liver infection.

456
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:11,400
Really?

457
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:12,840
Are you sure about that?

458
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:13,840
How do you know?

459
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,700
Can you tell me why you said that?

460
00:27:15,700 --> 00:27:17,880
You know, I'm going to give them an injection of B12.

461
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,360
Well, B12 doesn't solve everything.

462
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:24,720
We have a B12 atropine ampicillin and say, you know, like saline, essentially.

463
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:30,640
Those are these things that they just throw at every single animal and they're like, surprise,

464
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:36,560
animals dead, you know, and we just, it's kind of like a situation you expect at some

465
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,960
point to not have your problem solved when you go to the vet.

466
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:45,320
So animal, people bring their animals to a vet knowing that it's probably like the last

467
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:46,760
minutes of their life.

468
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:53,240
So when the animal dies because of veterinary malpractice, it's not really surprising.

469
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:59,480
Their interaction with the healthcare system as humans and with animals is just so negative

470
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,360
that there's not like, they don't really expect miracles to happen at a veterinarian, you

471
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:08,640
know, just like they wouldn't expect miracles to happen when their grandma's dying or to

472
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,920
get any real help.

473
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:16,560
You know, I was born in North Africa and the culture there is, you know, when I talk with

474
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:24,200
family who still lives there and I tell them about my cat and how I bring her to the vet

475
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:33,240
and the treatment I purchased, you know, for her, they feel like it's a joke because it's

476
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,600
just a cat.

477
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,160
Why are you spending your money on a cat?

478
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,160
Right.

479
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,160
Absolutely.

480
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,560
I mean, there are people here that I've met that didn't know that a vet was a job.

481
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,360
They didn't know that was a thing.

482
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:51,840
So if we're saying like, you know, like the media attention of course is focused on that

483
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,800
Asians are cruel to animals.

484
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,040
I think we're missing a whole lot of that picture.

485
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:04,640
This whole idea that there's this like savage anti-animal thing is just such a raging line

486
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,120
of bullshit.

487
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,200
It sells well.

488
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,040
It sells well to dumb white people.

489
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,880
But I mean, the marketing is excellent.

490
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,360
But it's just a lie.

491
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,040
It's just like they lack access.

492
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,840
It's not like I ran a vet clinic that had predominantly Vietnamese staff, Vietnamese

493
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,480
clients for almost three years.

494
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:30,380
I guarantee you, nobody walked into that clinic thinking, I just don't care about this animal.

495
00:29:30,380 --> 00:29:35,520
We were constantly busy, you know, this idea that they don't care about animals or cruel

496
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,080
to animals or whatever all the time just doesn't make any sense.

497
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,240
I don't think there is a, it's just, it's just stupid.

498
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,600
I mean, they're humans, humans and animals have had a close relationship for a pretty

499
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:48,600
long time.

500
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:54,320
Well, you know, I mean, before getting into the cultural differences, and I want to get

501
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,600
to that because it's such an interesting discussion.

502
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:05,280
I want you to continue your description of the state of animal welfare in Vietnam.

503
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:11,560
We talked about the healthcare and how it is completely broken, to say the least.

504
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:17,720
What about, and we touched on that, the stray population, you know, stray cats and dogs.

505
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,880
Would you say that the country is in a state of crisis in terms of the number of...

506
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:24,880
No, no.

507
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,440
Do you know why?

508
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,400
The dog meat trade, the dog meat trade and the cat meat trade.

509
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,800
Yeah, people don't really want to acknowledge what this is.

510
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,000
People are all boohooing about the dog and cat meat trade and they forget that that's

511
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,680
our population control.

512
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,600
The vast majority of animals in this country are called roaming-owned dogs.

513
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,800
So we don't have a stray population.

514
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,000
If we do, it's tiny.

515
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:53,800
It's tiny, you know, and pretty much every dog and cat has a place it goes to get food

516
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,200
and shelter from the rain and whatever.

517
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,080
Are they taken care of there?

518
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:04,320
Not necessarily, but it's not like a whole bunch of animals roaming.

519
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:05,320
It's not like Cambodia.

520
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:06,320
It's not like Laos.

521
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:07,600
It's not like Thailand.

522
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,280
It's not like, you know, it's not like a lot of other countries that have a large stray

523
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:17,400
population where animals just literally exist without a person's direct care.

524
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,640
That's not how it is.

525
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:29,160
So we don't have a population control program in the sense that like the reason the animals

526
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:36,680
still aren't lasting more than a year usually is disease, dog theft, animals being sold

527
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,120
into the meat trade from people who own them.

528
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,600
So it's not, so they have like a medical problem that the people aren't able to fix or whatever

529
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,480
or the animal gets old or the animal bit a kid or something like that.

530
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,560
They're going to sell it to the dog meat guy.

531
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:51,560
So that's always going to happen.

532
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:56,480
So that's behavioral medical issues that goes into the dog meat trade as well.

533
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,560
The cat meat as well.

534
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:03,640
Cat meat is quite a bit smaller, but cats are harder to catch to be fair.

535
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,600
Dogs are always, cats are a little shifty, you know?

536
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,840
But I would say, you know, people aren't looking at the fact that like if you get rid of the

537
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:17,560
dog meat trade, you have to replace that with a functional population management system.

538
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,520
And what's going to happen in Vietnam is that they're going to use culling.

539
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,800
If there is no sterilization program that is widespread, the Vietnamese government no

540
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:32,600
doubt in my mind will cull the animals with strychnine, will shoot them, whatever, which

541
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,440
is what other countries like Myanmar have done and Cambodia.

542
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,000
They just blanket kill them.

543
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,280
You know, Egypt, I mean, there's a lot of countries that cull them like that, right?

544
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:48,800
Because they're dealing with, you know, zoonotic diseases, particularly rabies.

545
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,480
And if a kid gets bitten and gets rabies and dies, I guarantee you that entire population

546
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,880
of that region is going to be culled.

547
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:57,880
You know?

548
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,880
So these are all things that like we have to consider.

549
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:06,040
Plus there's a lot of infectious disease they get because animals aren't being vaccinated.

550
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,400
So vaccination and sterilization have to come together, right?

551
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:15,080
If we're going to improve the population or the lives of the population of the existing

552
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,760
animals and prevent more from being born that are going to be born into a horrible life,

553
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,080
we have to have sterilization and vaccination.

554
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,760
Preventative care is the only care here, right?

555
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,620
Otherwise it's going to be culling and it's the dog meat trade.

556
00:33:28,620 --> 00:33:29,960
That's how we manage the population.

557
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:35,640
Because stray populations, man, that's how you have a lot of problems with human interaction.

558
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,520
That's how you have the bites and that's how you have the zoonotic transfers.

559
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:47,720
And we just, I want that to be understood very, very clearly about the dog meat trade.

560
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,160
That it is our population management system.

561
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,640
And if you erase it, if you ban it, which I don't believe is going to happen in a country

562
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,480
with such weak rule of law to begin with, but if you ban it and it actually works, then

563
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,280
you're going to have a whole lot of strays and it's going to be a different problem.

564
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,440
But they're going to die one way or another.

565
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,880
It's just, you have to choose which way it happens.

566
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:15,120
Well, this is a strange economical activity because if there is a dog meat trade, why

567
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,600
is there no dog farms?

568
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,120
Why are they going after stray dogs?

569
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:23,120
It's not really stray.

570
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,280
I mean, they'll come and they'll steal them or people will sell them or whatever.

571
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,360
They'll pick them up.

572
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,440
So dog theft is a really big problem for sure.

573
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:39,760
But I mean, to be clear, there's about, we estimate around 5 million dogs killed for

574
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,560
meat every year.

575
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,240
And predominantly that happens in the North, but it's really like in every village, the

576
00:34:45,240 --> 00:34:48,680
dog catcher I just saw yesterday, same guy I've seen for the past 10 years.

577
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:49,680
They do the same job.

578
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,840
They just drive around slowly in the middle of the day and they can pick up animals that

579
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,440
people don't want anymore and they can get, you know.

580
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:57,440
And they're called dog catchers.

581
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,440
This is the dog catcher.

582
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:00,440
Yeah.

583
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,240
And they'll take it to a restaurant and whatever.

584
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,280
Or they'll put them on a truck to Hanoi, something like that.

585
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,400
I mean, the North eats a lot more dog meat than the rest of the country, but still, so

586
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,160
5 million dogs are killed every year, but let's compare that to the numbers in animal

587
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:18,160
agriculture.

588
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,000
So 551 million chickens are killed every year.

589
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,440
That's a factor of 105 more, right?

590
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:25,440
Yeah.

591
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,240
Multiplier, 105.

592
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:28,600
That's not a small amount.

593
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,320
44 million pigs are killed.

594
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,760
So if we're looking at the, if you look at the whole picture, dogs are actually like

595
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:41,320
0.7% of the animals killed in this country, not including sea life.

596
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,560
It's a tiny, tiny amount.

597
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,680
And people just absolutely lose their mind.

598
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,000
Five million is a lot.

599
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:54,880
And if I think about, you know, like you said, if there was no dog meat trade, we would have

600
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,440
five million dogs in the streets.

601
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,440
What?

602
00:35:58,440 --> 00:35:59,440
Yeah.

603
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,960
Five million doesn't stay five million for very long, does it?

604
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,320
You know what they're doing in the streets.

605
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:05,320
They're shagging.

606
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:06,320
Yeah.

607
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,600
It's not just, they're not just hanging out, not making babies.

608
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,560
That five million is going to be 25 million within a year.

609
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:13,560
Right?

610
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,680
So like you want, and what are they going to do with that 25 million?

611
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,320
I guarantee you're going to find a way worse way than the dog meat trade to kill them.

612
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:22,680
Guarantee it a hundred percent.

613
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,640
That's the way the Vietnamese government works.

614
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:30,560
So that's their version of, you know, protecting the public health.

615
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,080
So yeah, I mean, it is, I mean, five million is a lot.

616
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,240
We are a country of 97, 98 million people.

617
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:39,140
It's a very large, densely populated country.

618
00:36:39,140 --> 00:36:42,500
So if you kind of put it into perspective, I think people, people still are thinking

619
00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:45,120
this is a tiny little country, you know?

620
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,840
I mean, it's really not.

621
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,480
And it's very densely populated as well.

622
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:51,480
So it's Asia.

623
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:52,480
It's Asia.

624
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:53,480
It's Asia.

625
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,840
I mean, but we're so much more densely populated.

626
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,040
Like Laos has like 6 million people in it and there are neighbors.

627
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,040
It's super weird.

628
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,040
Nobody lives in Laos.

629
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,200
I don't know why I've never been to Laos, but there doesn't seem to have people in it.

630
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,200
It's a strange exception to the Asian Union.

631
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,360
It's a weird exception to Asia.

632
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,360
So weird.

633
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,680
So I can't wait to go because maybe it's actually quiet because Vietnam is not.

634
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,920
So yeah, I mean, I think people need to put it into the larger perspective of how many

635
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,760
animals that is by comparison.

636
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,520
Am I saying the dog meat trade is a good thing?

637
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,120
And I think this is where it gets confusing.

638
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,880
No, I am firmly against the dog meat trade.

639
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,400
I have stopped dog catchers myself.

640
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,080
I have taken animals from the dog meat trade.

641
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,120
I have been to the restaurants.

642
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:35,920
I have been, I've done all of this stuff.

643
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,160
I see how they're killed.

644
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,000
I see all of this.

645
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,280
The dog catchers in my neighborhood every single day.

646
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,720
I don't have to wonder about the dog meat trade.

647
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:46,800
This is a real part of my daily life.

648
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:52,040
I'm not some, you know, talking head in Los Angeles or London that's like, oh, boo hoo,

649
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,040
the dog meat trade.

650
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,040
Yeah.

651
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,040
Okay.

652
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,400
Well, you were on vacation here at the freaking Hilton for two weeks.

653
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:03,360
You don't know diddly dick about, sorry, about the dog meat trade, but it's really true.

654
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,440
It's just like all the people that cry about it are also non-vegans anyway.

655
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,520
You can't talk about the dog meat trade if you got bacon grease dripping down your chin.

656
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:13,520
I'm sorry.

657
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,400
Like, I'm just not buying it.

658
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:25,800
Well, if I wasn't on a trip in Vietnam and I saw, you know, a scooter with a dog in a

659
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,160
cage and I would look at that, I would think, oh, that's, what is that?

660
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,480
And then that's it.

661
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:38,920
The idea of those are going to a restaurant and people are going to eat them would not

662
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:44,440
even register in my mind because I have this cultural bias of, oh, but dogs are not for

663
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,000
food.

664
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,600
Dogs are, you know, our best friends.

665
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:55,040
So yeah, I think there is also this bias of, you know, you don't really notice until you

666
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,040
notice until.

667
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,040
Until you notice.

668
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,400
And it is, it is revolting for the first couple of years of the organization.

669
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,560
We talked about dog meat endlessly.

670
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,360
I mean, it was, it was something, even though I was vegan, I would, but I mean, I was vegan.

671
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,320
So it kind of like, I feel like vegans are allowed to talk about a little more.

672
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,120
If you're not vegan, you're talking about the dog meat trade.

673
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,520
I need you to shut up.

674
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,040
Like, it's just, I have no patience for that.

675
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,360
But, but I would say, I would say in the first couple of years, it is something that you

676
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,200
see and it, and it, and it shakes you to your core.

677
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,800
You know, I remember even just in November, I was in Cancun, which is a big city, one

678
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,520
of the biggest cities in the South.

679
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:39,480
And there was a whole bunch of dogs just packed like there, there's no way they could have

680
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:45,440
put any more in this time in this small cage that they put on the back of a motorbike.

681
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,080
And it really is, even after all these years, it makes you sick.

682
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:55,120
Even though I have seen, so I've seen one dog truck on the highway where all the animals

683
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,920
were stuffed in cages and they were going north.

684
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:05,160
And in that time, in 10 years of watching, of this organization and looking at animals

685
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:10,760
in horrible situations, I've seen one dog meat truck, I've seen lots of dog catchers.

686
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:17,320
But in that time, I've seen thousands upon thousands upon thousands of chicken trucks,

687
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:22,520
duck trucks, goat trucks, cow trucks, pig trucks, all of these animals that are being

688
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:27,160
slaughtered in such larger numbers than the dogs.

689
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:32,000
And yet the only thing people focus on when we talk about Vietnam and when we talk about

690
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,520
animal cruelty and animal welfare in general is the dogs.

691
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,640
And the thing is, I'll admit, you see them more.

692
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,320
You just see them more.

693
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:48,720
Dogs are such an integral part of human life in every part of the world.

694
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:52,320
Where can you go in the world where there's not somebody with dogs?

695
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:53,800
They're a big part of our lives.

696
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,880
So we focus on that and I get it.

697
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:56,880
They are wonderful.

698
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,040
I love my dogs.

699
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,560
I love dogs.

700
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:09,040
I love animals, you know, but but ultimately their suffering is an extension, not an exception.

701
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:14,680
It's an extension of the existing industries of animal exploitation that exist all over

702
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,800
the damn planet, everywhere and every country.

703
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:24,320
And in fact, the Vietnamese eat one third of the meat that an American does.

704
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:32,280
One third, that is a that is a fraction of what Americans are producing in dead bodies.

705
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:38,580
So Americans eat three times as many dead bodies of animals that suffered and died for

706
00:41:38,580 --> 00:41:40,920
no good reason than the Vietnamese.

707
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:41,920
Right.

708
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,800
And I mean, that varies throughout the country, of course, depending on poverty levels and

709
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:46,800
whatever.

710
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,720
But still, yeah, let's get into that.

711
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:54,920
It was the best friend I mentioned the food she showed me, you know, it looked really

712
00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:00,160
good, but it was also packed with meat.

713
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,400
There was meat everywhere, animal products everywhere.

714
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,840
And I was really.

715
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:06,840
Is that different from Canada?

716
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:07,840
No, no, no.

717
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:08,840
Go to a restaurant.

718
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,480
If I mean, I come back from Alabama and I'm like, where's all that?

719
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:14,480
How am I supposed to eat here?

720
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:15,480
True.

721
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,600
You know, like I come down, I go to Alabama and be like, I can't even go to a restaurant

722
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,800
because they put butter on every damn thing.

723
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,120
They put butter and cheese on steamed vegetables.

724
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,600
I just want some steamed vegetables.

725
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,920
Throw me a salad that doesn't have cheese and egg in it or chicken on top of it.

726
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:30,920
You know what I mean?

727
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,960
Like I would say I would say it's much worse in other countries than Vietnam.

728
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,120
There is a lot of cheese in Western, you know, cooking.

729
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:44,440
But you know, I saw a lot of meat, just lots of meat.

730
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:45,840
But they're little pieces.

731
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:46,840
Yeah.

732
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,640
OK, because you have to eat them with chopsticks.

733
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:50,640
Right.

734
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:56,560
So it may look like a lot of meat, but fundamentally, if we're talking about weight, it's actually

735
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:01,840
a tiny amount of meat by comparison to others because we don't use knives here.

736
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:07,540
So here, I mean, in the in the West, you have big chunks of meat that you cut with a fork

737
00:43:07,540 --> 00:43:08,540
and knife.

738
00:43:08,540 --> 00:43:09,540
Right here.

739
00:43:09,540 --> 00:43:12,880
We have to be able to get these little pieces out with chopsticks.

740
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:13,880
That's right.

741
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,480
So just like the actual volume is significantly smaller.

742
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:19,680
Is it in a lot of dishes?

743
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:20,680
Yes.

744
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,720
But here's the thing about vegan food, because we are a Buddhist country in which the Buddhists

745
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:31,160
here, this type of Buddhism is where they are vegan twice a month, full moon and half

746
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:32,160
moon.

747
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,840
Some people are vegan only for two days.

748
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:36,340
Some people are vegan for four days.

749
00:43:36,340 --> 00:43:37,880
Some people are vegan for 10 days.

750
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,760
And some people are vegan all the time.

751
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:40,760
Right.

752
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,280
And as a result of that, that is all over the country.

753
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:50,640
Those all of those things that you saw that were meat, they replicate in vegan food.

754
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:51,640
Right.

755
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:58,000
So every single dish is made into a vegan version of that to be fed to people on full

756
00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,440
and half moon.

757
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,440
Which are called, I think, upasatha days.

758
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,800
But yeah, that's that's where the surprise came from.

759
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:13,440
The fact that I was not expecting that from Vietnam, because in my mind, Vietnam is a

760
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:14,920
Buddhist country.

761
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,960
So why are they eating so much meat?

762
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,420
Why are they exploiting animals so much?

763
00:44:22,420 --> 00:44:30,000
Because you look at China and there's this big vegetarian movement in China.

764
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,000
And you look at India, same thing.

765
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:38,680
And you can see the influences of Buddhism and Hinduism and such.

766
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,360
So I was expecting the same from Vietnam.

767
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,360
But no, not exactly.

768
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,840
I think there's a lot of I mean, as they get richer.

769
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,080
And this is true around the world.

770
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:56,560
As as countries get richer, they are also increasing the amount of dead bodies in their

771
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:57,560
food.

772
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,920
That is that's just the standard graph.

773
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:02,980
You know, like it just goes up together.

774
00:45:02,980 --> 00:45:08,560
So Vietnam is becoming wealthier and they don't have like a vegan movement in that regard.

775
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:13,360
They don't the Buddhists don't really I mean, they're all you know, all the pagodas are

776
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,280
all vegan, you know, all of that.

777
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,760
But like, ultimately, they're not like spreading the word of veganism on its own.

778
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,200
It's about compassion and whatever.

779
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,280
But ultimately, that doesn't mean that they're not raising animals.

780
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,200
It doesn't mean, you know, they're not like it hasn't or their family members or whatever.

781
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:37,800
They're not it's just a very different version of like the vegan movement from like the UK,

782
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,720
for example, you know.

783
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:43,800
But but I don't see it at all in Thailand, frankly.

784
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,800
You know, I don't I mean, I mean, as far as vegan food in Thailand, I mean, I'd give a

785
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,280
big thumbs down to that.

786
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,800
I mean, like, you know, of course, like in Bangkok and stuff, it's fine.

787
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,780
And there are lots of places throughout the country.

788
00:45:54,780 --> 00:46:00,320
But it's not at all like in Vietnam, where you can get vegan food any place you go.

789
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,880
You know, there's always a a chai place.

790
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:03,880
Chai.

791
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:04,880
Chai.

792
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:05,880
Yeah.

793
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:11,120
How do you explain that disconnect that, you know, twice a month they eat vegan for they

794
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:12,120
get it.

795
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:13,120
Yeah.

796
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:14,120
Yeah.

797
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:15,120
Because then all of a sudden, nothing.

798
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:16,120
I don't get it.

799
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:17,120
I don't get it.

800
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,120
I don't get it.

801
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:19,720
It makes me endlessly angry.

802
00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:25,440
I am constantly pissed off at foodists for being like, I mean, I live in a constant state

803
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,360
of like, what are you missing here?

804
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:30,360
Because they get it.

805
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:31,360
It's like full and half.

806
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:32,360
And their food is great.

807
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:37,720
And they're eating the same stuff and like all these great dishes and this beautiful,

808
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:40,520
you know, the why don't you do it all the time?

809
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:41,520
Exactly.

810
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:46,080
You have the cultural basis, the religious basis, and you have great vegan food, great

811
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:47,080
vegan options.

812
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,800
So why is there no, you know, support?

813
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,080
I think a lot of it is nutrition.

814
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,520
A lot of people have this idea and are brought up with the idea of just like Americans that

815
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:02,480
you need meat to survive, that meat makes you strong and without it you are weak.

816
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:03,480
Right.

817
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,640
So I think a lot of it is nutrition based.

818
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,400
And that's just wrong information.

819
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,320
The same wrong information I was given as a child, you know.

820
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,560
So we go back to the broken healthcare system.

821
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:16,560
Oh, absolutely.

822
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:17,560
Absolutely.

823
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:22,800
And they're like, you know, it's just trying to feed people meat in order to be healthier.

824
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,840
And when in reality it's quite the opposite, but it just doesn't make any sense.

825
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:28,840
I get it.

826
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,280
I mean, it makes me really, it makes me really angry.

827
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,400
I get pretty pissed off at Buddhists.

828
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:35,400
Yeah.

829
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,800
So how do Vietnamese people perceive your sanctuary?

830
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:44,400
That's complicated because I live, you know, I live in a tourist town, right?

831
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,840
It's a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

832
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:53,200
So it's an old city that was built by the Chinese and Japanese in the 15th century.

833
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,320
And so we have this beautiful old town.

834
00:47:55,320 --> 00:48:00,400
And so we have a large influx of foreign influence, right?

835
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,320
So it's not like I'm some weirdo for doing this, but in the beginning it's taken a long

836
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,880
time for them to accept it.

837
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,740
But they're still like, I'm still about three kilometers from the center, which is like

838
00:48:12,740 --> 00:48:16,480
countryside here, which I think is really funny.

839
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:21,440
And so there's still a lot of people, the people that live here may have gotten wealthier

840
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:27,000
from work in town, but their education hasn't changed and their experience with the world

841
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:28,920
hasn't really changed that much.

842
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:35,600
So I think people think it's ridiculous what we do, you know, but in general, but then

843
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:40,000
there's a lot of people that really support it as well.

844
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,480
You know, I mean, there's a lot of people, a lot of Vietnamese just love doggies and

845
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,320
kitties, which is standard around the world.

846
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:52,560
But the idea of being a vegan organization and being specifically like anti-speciesist

847
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:58,520
is something that is really, really brand spanking new to this country.

848
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,440
And we are the only farm sanctuary in the country.

849
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,320
We're the only anti-speciesist organization.

850
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,160
We're the only vegan rescue.

851
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:11,520
So that makes us, from being an animal rescue, which they only kind of get anyway, to being

852
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:18,280
a farm sanctuary is a big leap, you know, and to be like somebody who loves dogs and

853
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:19,280
doesn't eat pigs.

854
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,280
Like that's like, why would you do that?

855
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,880
You know, like, but that's true in every country.

856
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,240
I don't feel like that.

857
00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:27,520
We get that same problem.

858
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:33,840
And whether I'm in France or in, you know, Costa Rica, they're like, so wait, you love

859
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,840
dogs and you don't eat other animals?

860
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:39,280
Are you sure that's normal?

861
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:40,280
Are you okay?

862
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:41,280
Yeah, no.

863
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:42,920
I mean, really.

864
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,880
So we are freaks in a lot of ways, not just to the local people.

865
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:48,880
What?

866
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,960
Well, honestly, Kat, it's good that you're here.

867
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,360
It's good that you're in Vietnam.

868
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:56,360
Yeah.

869
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:57,680
So let's talk about this.

870
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,540
Let's talk about your sanctuary.

871
00:49:59,540 --> 00:50:01,600
Who are the residents there?

872
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,400
And what are your current projects?

873
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:04,400
Right.

874
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,160
So, I mean, currently we're trying really hard to get our veterinary project restarted,

875
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,440
but we've been trying for like four to five years at this point.

876
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,600
It's very difficult to get the money for it because people here are veterinary and they

877
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:21,320
just don't think that it's worthy of any funding, especially because we're a vegan vet clinic

878
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,480
and an anti-speciesist project, which ruffles a few feathers.

879
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,440
I'm not going to lie.

880
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:29,320
I was built to ruffle feathers.

881
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,120
That's kind of what my whole life purpose is.

882
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,720
But anyway, it's difficult to get funding for.

883
00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:39,920
So we have a sanctuary where the only, like I said, the only farm sanctuary in the country,

884
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:41,920
as far as we know, there is another one.

885
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,520
Nobody's been able to find it for us.

886
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:50,080
But we, so we've got two pig residents that are eight and 12.

887
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,800
Basically the oldest of their breed in the entire country.

888
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:55,960
We've got four chickens who are lovely.

889
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:57,840
They came to us just this spring.

890
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,400
Come on, we've got nine kittens, which is so many.

891
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,400
I can hear the one screaming behind me.

892
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,560
There's four in the room just behind me.

893
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,680
I fed you, be quiet.

894
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,200
I wanted them to be quiet during this podcast anyway.

895
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:18,680
So and then we've got another five that were just sterilized yesterday and we've got, I

896
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:20,560
think 15 other cats.

897
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,600
And then we've got, we're really reducing our number of dogs.

898
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:28,600
We're really working hard to reduce the number of animals as much as possible because we

899
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:33,320
need to put all of our funds into the veterinary project, which will ideally be a mobile veterinary

900
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:34,360
clinic.

901
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,800
So reaching the people that don't have access to veterinary care and providing vaccinations

902
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:39,960
and sterilization.

903
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:45,080
So ongoing preventative care in the rural regions in central Vietnam.

904
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:50,440
And also being able to train Vietnamese veterinarians that are fresh out of graduate or fresh out

905
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:51,440
of school.

906
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,760
So we get them before they've learned anything really stupid.

907
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,680
And then we train them up so that they're being trained by our international veterinary

908
00:51:58,680 --> 00:51:59,900
staff.

909
00:51:59,900 --> 00:52:04,560
So this is a big project we wanted to get started in January, 2024.

910
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:10,160
But yeah, at the moment we have something called Kittenmas, which is getting rid of

911
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,560
all the kittens, getting them all re-homed by Christmas.

912
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:19,680
We want all those babies to have homes by Christmas because people don't realize that

913
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,960
every single animal is a real drain on our ability to do preventative work.

914
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:30,560
Not only on our time, but also on our financial resources and physical space.

915
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:35,320
So we really want to get all those babies out as quickly as possible to safe and loving

916
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:40,600
lifelong homes, which is far harder than you'd ever imagine it to be here.

917
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:48,080
So we can also export, we have, I guess, three animals going in September to Paris and then

918
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:49,960
they'll go to the UK.

919
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:51,920
So we do international exports as well.

920
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:56,920
Also if you want to adopt animals, we definitely can do the rabies titer test and microchip

921
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,600
them and get them sent over within 90 days.

922
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:05,960
Yeah, so we're able to get some animals out, but it's just a matter of like, that is a

923
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:13,520
hugely expensive process that is so, so inefficient in terms of like the number of animals in

924
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:14,520
need here.

925
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,400
The biggest problem is that it takes so much.

926
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:19,440
I mean, like I'm happy they all have homes.

927
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,480
I'm really happy that I've been able to provide that.

928
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:27,560
I just did three last month to the UK and Paris and I'm super happy about that.

929
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:33,560
They deserve lifelong loving homes, but it took so much money and so much time and effort

930
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,520
to get them on those planes and then to get them transported.

931
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,760
And I had to rent a car to drive across the UK to bring them to Wales in the middle of

932
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:41,760
nowhere.

933
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,680
I mean, like it was some serious work.

934
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:47,760
I'm super happy they're there, but like we have to be a lot more efficient if we're going

935
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,240
to address the problem that exists, right?

936
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:53,280
Like I said, 5 million dogs are killed for dog meat every year.

937
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:58,840
If we could sterilize a thousand a year, you know, like we're making a huge dent on it,

938
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:00,320
but we can't do that.

939
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:08,600
If I'm, if my time and all of my staff time is spent just trying to maintain the sanctuary,

940
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:14,600
trying to just keep our heads above water in terms of funding our overhead, which has

941
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,520
just been really hard.

942
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:22,120
And, and trying to move forward with a project that's actually going to do the amount of

943
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,160
work that we need to do for the number of animals that are actually in need.

944
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,560
My job is to go out of business, right?

945
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:35,240
And it's to, I, I, my whole job is to have no more animals to rescue, right?

946
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:36,960
How am I supposed to do that?

947
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,920
If I'm focused on, on getting a puppy to Paris, you know, how am I supposed to focus on that?

948
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:46,880
If all of our time is taking animals and rehabbing them and paying vet bills and then putting

949
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,560
them on airplanes to someplace else because local adoptions are so rare.

950
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,240
And you're not actively looking for them.

951
00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:59,880
I mean, sometimes people come and just dump them at your front door.

952
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:00,880
Yeah.

953
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:01,880
Yeah.

954
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,960
Most of them are being dumped on us.

955
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:10,960
You know, one of the poodle that went to, to Wales, she was locked in a, she was zipper

956
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,480
tied in a beer crate and left at the end of our driveway.

957
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:20,560
The four kittens that we just got right here, they were dumped on, at the, at the shelter

958
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,160
and the other four, they were also dumped.

959
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,960
We had to bottle feed them every three hours when we got them.

960
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:27,640
That wasn't fun.

961
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,720
That takes all of my energy and sanity to do.

962
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:36,760
So, so yeah, I mean, like most of them, I mean, there are some that we find for sure.

963
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:41,000
There are some that were like, basically most of our animals that came to us came from major

964
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,000
medical cases.

965
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:48,520
So they were animals that were like in a, like actively dying and we intervened, you

966
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:52,440
know, but unfortunately people, people get quite excited about that on the day that they're

967
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,720
rescued and don't understand that the vast majority of them are going to end up not being

968
00:55:56,720 --> 00:56:01,880
adoptable or having very major difficulties being adopted, particularly when it comes

969
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,880
to cats and that we're going to have them for the next 15 years, but paying those expenses

970
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:11,760
for like the existing residents in a sanctuary is unbelievably difficult.

971
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,800
People do not want to, they want, they're happy to be like, Oh, I'm going to help you

972
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,480
pay this vet bill for this animal you got today.

973
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:18,480
Okay.

974
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:20,000
Well, what about the next 15 years?

975
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,280
What are you going to do about that animal then?

976
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:28,280
So ongoing expenses tend to be very difficult for all rescues around the world.

977
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,000
People it's just not, it's not sexy.

978
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,040
Overhead isn't sexy.

979
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:39,400
Paying vet bills for a nine year old cat that never got adopted when we got him as a kitten.

980
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:40,400
Not sexy.

981
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:47,040
So, um, so unfortunately just the entire business model of sanctuary and shelter and rescue

982
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:51,840
here does not function because locally it's so difficult to get adoptions.

983
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:53,280
It's not, we're not in California.

984
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:54,600
We're in Vietnam.

985
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,360
Most people here, like I said, have owned roaming dogs.

986
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:58,880
So the animals are not safe.

987
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,880
We do not adopt to anybody that lets their animals roam around.

988
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:08,040
So everybody that has a dog will have to have it safe indoors and in a protected garden,

989
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:11,400
which 99% of people here don't have.

990
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:15,200
Um, otherwise that animal is going to get stolen and killed, or it's going to end up

991
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:16,600
getting an infectious disease.

992
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,420
It's going to end up being in a traffic accident.

993
00:57:19,420 --> 00:57:24,280
So we don't adopt to people like that, which eliminates the entire local population for

994
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:25,760
that matter.

995
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:26,760
Same with cats, cats.

996
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:31,000
We only will adopt to indoor homes, but it's a very hot country.

997
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:32,400
Everybody has their windows open.

998
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,440
Everybody has doors open all the time.

999
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,000
So we can only adopt to people living in apartments and those apartment buildings have to have

1000
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:39,640
to allow cats.

1001
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:46,200
So that is just in general, like our ability to take animals is hampered by the fact that

1002
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,200
they got to go somewhere.

1003
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,160
You, you can't just take them.

1004
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,520
It doesn't, it actually doesn't work like that.

1005
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:57,960
The math doesn't work out, you know, because the amount of animals that need to be taken,

1006
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:03,360
we simply just don't have the capacity to just keep adding more and keep adding more

1007
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:07,460
and keep adding more while we're ignoring the preventative work that prevents those

1008
00:58:07,460 --> 00:58:08,460
more from coming.

1009
00:58:08,460 --> 00:58:09,460
Right.

1010
00:58:09,460 --> 00:58:12,600
So that balance has to rebalance.

1011
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,040
It's way off at the moment.

1012
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:20,560
Well, local shelters here, you know, North America have a hard time finding homes for

1013
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:21,560
their residents.

1014
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:29,080
So you're in Vietnam, you're not in a friendly environment for, you know, animal welfare

1015
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:30,760
and you have to do the same job.

1016
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:32,840
It's 10 times harder.

1017
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,720
So truly you have all of my admiration.

1018
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:46,080
No, but you're, you're doing some miracles here and it's sad to see how, you know, even

1019
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:52,680
on, on the international scene, you know, sometimes it feels like Westerners and people

1020
00:58:52,680 --> 00:59:01,320
in richer countries have like, have more values and medias in, you know, everyone pays more

1021
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:06,320
attention to what happens in the West, even if it's something minor, but then there's

1022
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:12,200
a catastrophe and it's taking the lives of, I don't know how many people in a poor country

1023
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:19,720
and nobody pays attention, but that, that same dynamic applies to animals.

1024
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:26,240
There are also animals in Vietnam and in other parts of the world who are suffering and you

1025
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:33,560
know, we're so focused on animals here, which is understandable, but what about the rest

1026
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:34,560
of the world?

1027
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:37,440
So it's in your community and you're paying attention to the ones there.

1028
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:42,320
Well, imagine that you live in a country in which nobody pays attention to that.

1029
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,200
And the people here don't pay attention to it.

1030
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:49,880
And the only people that pay for us to do this work live like 7,000 miles away.

1031
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,880
You also have to consider that our funding is not coming predominantly from the poor

1032
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:58,600
residents of the country that we live in and a community that does not understand or care

1033
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:00,400
about the work that we do.

1034
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:01,400
Right.

1035
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:05,960
So they don't, they don't get what's going on predominantly and they don't want to participate

1036
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,160
in it in terms of philanthropy.

1037
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:13,880
So, so not only are we ignored by people abroad because the only thing that people think about

1038
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:19,600
here is the dog meat trade or the Vietnam war, but we also just don't have access to

1039
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:25,440
the funds to keep going in terms of like rescue and rehabilitation, rehoming, you know, we

1040
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:30,120
just don't, I mean, it's very difficult to get people to connect to Vietnam.

1041
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,320
Most people couldn't find us on a map.

1042
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:35,000
So we're really in a major disadvantage.

1043
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:39,940
And then you add to it, the fact that we are an anti-speciesist vegan organization, which

1044
01:00:39,940 --> 01:00:48,920
pisses everybody off, you know, like we are outspoken and absolutely will not stop talking

1045
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:50,240
about abolitionism.

1046
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,340
And I guarantee you that does not make us any friends.

1047
01:00:53,340 --> 01:00:58,280
So you take a giant pool of people that otherwise would support us even amongst the local population,

1048
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,120
because we're helping animals in general.

1049
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:03,600
And a lot of the Buddhists find that to be valuable.

1050
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,080
But then you then you're like, oh, but we're vegan.

1051
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,200
And they're like, oh, I don't know.

1052
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,440
That's really confrontational for me.

1053
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:11,440
Yeah.

1054
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:12,440
Why?

1055
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:13,440
Because you kill animals.

1056
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:14,440
Yeah.

1057
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:15,960
Yeah, you do.

1058
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,760
So we actually don't kill anybody and I'm not going to judge you and be mean to you,

1059
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:21,820
but I'm not going to lie about it.

1060
01:01:21,820 --> 01:01:24,040
You know, my son is a pig.

1061
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:25,880
My real son is a pig.

1062
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:29,400
I know that sounds insane, but he is my son.

1063
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,560
And I love him more than anything in the world.

1064
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:36,020
And if you think he's edible, you don't support our work and you don't love animals.

1065
01:01:36,020 --> 01:01:40,760
If that gets you all hurt because of the because of the fact that it confronts you, you need

1066
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:45,580
to look at yourself, not at me as being somebody judgmental or whatever.

1067
01:01:45,580 --> 01:01:48,880
You need to step back and be like, am I harming animals?

1068
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:54,760
Yeah, we rescue animals from you if you're not vegan.

1069
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:58,540
That's a hard thing for people to take in.

1070
01:01:58,540 --> 01:02:02,880
We rescue animals from non-vegans.

1071
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,080
That you are.

1072
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:06,560
You are a sanctuary.

1073
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,560
What are you protecting your residents from?

1074
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:11,360
It's the local population.

1075
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,960
The people are around.

1076
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,480
98% of the human population.

1077
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:17,480
Right.

1078
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:21,600
So like, it's insane that we're like, we're really having to defend ourselves against

1079
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:27,200
people that think my son is edible, you know, and our chickens belong on a Caesar salad.

1080
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:30,720
Yeah, because they couldn't figure out that like plants have protein.

1081
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:37,280
I don't know, like stop talking to the marathon runner Iron Man triathlete who doesn't think

1082
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,920
that you need to murder an animal.

1083
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:42,760
You know, like, I'm sorry, we're not in the same boat.

1084
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:46,200
So like, we do, we are confrontational on that degree.

1085
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:51,280
But it's like, in that regard, I think, but that's just kind of who I am as a person.

1086
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:52,840
And I'm never going to stop being that.

1087
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:57,800
I mean, I was kind of a virulent meat eater before I was a vegan as well.

1088
01:02:57,800 --> 01:02:59,600
I hated vegans.

1089
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:03,800
I told people I wanted to put them on an island in Napalm.

1090
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:05,600
Like I just was super anti-vegan.

1091
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:10,760
Yeah, I was a fox hunter and I worked for the National Turkey Federation in Washington,

1092
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:11,760
DC.

1093
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:13,120
I mean, I worked for the farmers lobby.

1094
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:14,720
I mean, like people change.

1095
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:15,720
I get it.

1096
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,600
And I'm just, but people don't change unless you talk about it.

1097
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:23,680
So vegans that run animal rescues that don't talk about veganism, they really upset me

1098
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,320
the most because the animals don't need silent vegans.

1099
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,480
They need people who are willing to stand up for all species.

1100
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:35,880
And it's not going to be the ones that are doggy, loving pig eating animal rescuers.

1101
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:37,000
It's not going to be them.

1102
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:38,440
It has to be us.

1103
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:42,160
And we just have to stand up and I guarantee you're going to lose a lot of money doing

1104
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:43,160
it.

1105
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:44,960
But ultimately we've got what?

1106
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,040
2.8 trillion animals that are unnecessarily killed every year.

1107
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:52,360
And I'm pretty sure if they had to choose between somebody who is just going to keep

1108
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,060
their donors happy and somebody who is going to stand up for them, they would take somebody

1109
01:03:56,060 --> 01:03:58,680
standing up for them and taking a hit.

1110
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,880
You know, we work for animals.

1111
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,520
I don't work for the public.

1112
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:09,360
And at least you want to support someone who is wholeheartedly in the fight.

1113
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:16,800
You know, someone who looks at your sanctuary knows that you're here for the good reasons,

1114
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:22,240
you know, and you're not going to, you know, this is not something about you.

1115
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:27,520
This is not your really, you know, you believe in your cause and you're doing your

1116
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:30,720
If I were greedy, this would be a horrible place to be.

1117
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:34,640
This would be the worst possible job.

1118
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,000
People are like, Oh, you do it for the money.

1119
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:38,000
Really?

1120
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:39,000
Show me the money.

1121
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:40,000
Show me.

1122
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:41,000
I would love to see that.

1123
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,000
Well, at least people should appreciate it.

1124
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,560
Did I just forget my pin code to my ATM?

1125
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:48,560
Is that where the money is?

1126
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:50,120
Oh, no, no, no, no.

1127
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:51,600
We don't get anything out of this.

1128
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:52,720
I guarantee you.

1129
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,320
There is no joy in this work.

1130
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:58,280
It is all about the animals and we do the best we can.

1131
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:03,160
I mean, it kills us all the time, but you know, like I said, people should at least

1132
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:09,560
appreciate, you know, your feelings, your sincerity in what you're doing at the very

1133
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:15,640
least, you know, they know that you're not bullshitting here.

1134
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:24,120
So if listeners want to support your sanctuary, what should they do?

1135
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:29,040
We definitely use the funds, but more than funds, I would say, you know, like donating

1136
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:36,120
is great, but so is helping us get animals adopted so that we can move on to the to the

1137
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:37,720
veterinary program.

1138
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:42,480
I would say being able to share our work is really nice and to be able to say, Hey, there

1139
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:49,600
is a morally consistent animal rescue in Vietnam who loves and does not kill animals.

1140
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:51,960
We should support them.

1141
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:56,560
I would say also, you know, you can always do fundraising for us, which would be really

1142
01:05:56,560 --> 01:06:02,720
great things like running a race because I'm a big runner or I was until my foot fell apart.

1143
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:07,640
But I really love it when people do athletic events and they fundraise for us in that way,

1144
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:12,520
because that's really good for us for not only for the funds, but for marketing in general,

1145
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:14,220
getting the word out about us.

1146
01:06:14,220 --> 01:06:21,960
We are in kind of a dark space in the sense of we have very small reach for the organization

1147
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:26,940
and and getting just getting the word out is really, really helpful so that we have

1148
01:06:26,940 --> 01:06:29,880
a wider reach for our work.

1149
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:35,840
And that gives us availability of more resources to do the work that we need to do and to get

1150
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:42,480
more animals adopted and to be able to to get more staff to be able to get more more

1151
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:47,240
to get the veterinary project rolling again and have just a wider reach to be able to

1152
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:49,600
do that is invaluable.

1153
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:54,700
And the idea of, you know, fundraising for your organization, you know, make it fun,

1154
01:06:54,700 --> 01:06:59,440
make it something, you know, it doesn't have to be like a whole sporting event.

1155
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:03,440
It can be just a garage.

1156
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,640
But it can be just a garage sale.

1157
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:06,640
You know, it can be.

1158
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:07,640
Yeah, exactly.

1159
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:13,760
It can be going door to door or having a or a table at the entrance of your supermarket,

1160
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:14,760
something like that.

1161
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:20,040
And, you know, talking with people, you know, gather with friends and do a game night and

1162
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,360
for for your sanctuary.

1163
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:25,640
So yeah, it can take so many forms.

1164
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:30,240
And to end this conversation, Kat, did you want to add something?

1165
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:35,640
Yeah, I mean, there's just one thing that I think people people forget is compassion

1166
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:37,600
fatigue is a big subject for me.

1167
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:41,920
And I think people I want people to be a lot more compassionate to people that work in

1168
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:49,360
this field because we go through and see a lot of things that we can't necessarily always

1169
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,120
share and we shouldn't have to share.

1170
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:54,040
And it can be very dark and isolating.

1171
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:57,120
This is an unbelievably isolating job.

1172
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:04,960
Even when we weren't, you know, being I think I think being where we are and being a vegan

1173
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:07,520
organization and all of that makes it very isolating.

1174
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:10,920
But I think even if you're in California, it can be very isolating if you run a farm

1175
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:15,800
sanctuary or veterinary project or whatever, particularly as vegans.

1176
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:17,560
And we see such horrible things.

1177
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:21,480
And I want people to just really understand where people are coming from and to not be.

1178
01:08:21,480 --> 01:08:24,600
So I need the peanut gallery to shut up.

1179
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:32,080
I would say I would say to acknowledge that people that work in this field need days off.

1180
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:33,860
Not all of us can be volunteers.

1181
01:08:33,860 --> 01:08:38,320
To be a volunteer is a financial luxury that the vast majority of us that are professional

1182
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:41,160
caretakers don't have.

1183
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:42,520
I don't have a partner.

1184
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:43,720
I don't have family money.

1185
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,920
I don't have, you know, like a big credit card limit.

1186
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:49,920
You know, like we I can't be a volunteer.

1187
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:52,880
I do take a very small salary.

1188
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:57,240
We have a hard time even justifying that we pay our staff.

1189
01:08:57,240 --> 01:08:59,520
And I think that's insane.

1190
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,200
Not everybody's in the same situation in every part of the world.

1191
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:04,440
And we have to be really mindful of that.

1192
01:09:04,440 --> 01:09:08,920
But just in general, like understand that this is a really traumatic job.

1193
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:12,480
And when you send people pictures of the dog meat trade or whatever, you're constantly

1194
01:09:12,480 --> 01:09:15,680
re like we see plenty of horrors.

1195
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:20,440
Like we don't have any any lack of that in our in our brains.

1196
01:09:20,440 --> 01:09:22,560
And it's very, very stressful.

1197
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:25,600
And we also have to say no to a lot of animals.

1198
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:28,640
And that that sticks with us our entire lives.

1199
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:33,400
I mean, I I remember every time I said no to an animal because I know that certain

1200
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:38,240
death and people get very, very, very pushy online with rescues.

1201
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:41,480
And it's just like you have to take this animal or I'm going to put him to sleep or this person's

1202
01:09:41,480 --> 01:09:42,640
going to get it and whatever.

1203
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:46,360
And sometimes people don't understand the lack of resources.

1204
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:48,320
Sometimes we just don't have quarantine space.

1205
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:50,480
Sometimes we just don't have the staff or we don't have the money.

1206
01:09:50,480 --> 01:09:51,480
We don't have the vets.

1207
01:09:51,480 --> 01:09:52,640
We can't help.

1208
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:56,780
And we have to acknowledge and accept that we can't save everybody.

1209
01:09:56,780 --> 01:10:01,600
And I think as long as everybody has that sort of understanding of the individual humans

1210
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:07,920
that do this work that I do, we can all be a lot more compassionate towards them and

1211
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:13,040
ensure that they do have real breaks, that they do have a living wage, that they do have,

1212
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:17,080
you know, adequate staff to make sure that they don't burn out burnout.

1213
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:22,040
I mean, in the United States, the average person working in animal welfare and any sort

1214
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:23,800
of rescue is five and a half years.

1215
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:25,720
I've done double that in Vietnam.

1216
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,880
I assure you it has taken its toll.

1217
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:28,880
Right.

1218
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:33,200
So I think people need to really understand that this is a burnout job and to be kind

1219
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:38,080
to the people and not just be like, oh, you're an angel and whatever.

1220
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,640
But then the moment we want to take a vacation, you're like, I can't believe you're taking

1221
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:42,640
a vacation.

1222
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:43,640
Yeah.

1223
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:46,640
Well, yeah, I'm going to museum today.

1224
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:48,880
What are you going to do about it?

1225
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:57,800
Let me add to what you said, you know, you want the nonprofits, the causes that you are

1226
01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:06,160
supporting to be run by professionals that are well paid and that who have the same,

1227
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:11,760
you know, standards of employment that you have because you want the best people behind

1228
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:13,880
your cause.

1229
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:19,540
You don't want like anybody coming in and just doing whatever.

1230
01:11:19,540 --> 01:11:21,760
This is not how things get done.

1231
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:25,880
You need professionals and you need professional conditions.

1232
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:29,720
And that's something very counterintuitive.

1233
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:35,320
And it comes from, you know, this Christian background of, you know, you're not a non.

1234
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:41,000
Yeah, you're not a non doing the God's work or something like that.

1235
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:43,000
No, we're being professional.

1236
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:45,720
No, we're people that have student loans.

1237
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:50,440
Yeah, we're humans that have health insurance.

1238
01:11:50,440 --> 01:11:52,640
We have to we have to drive something.

1239
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:54,000
We have to have friends.

1240
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:58,320
We have to we have to participate in the world like everybody else or our job suffers.

1241
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:01,960
And I know that more than anybody, because for most of this 10 years, I didn't have any

1242
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:02,960
of that.

1243
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,080
And, you know, for the first three years, I didn't take a salary at all because I was

1244
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:09,920
doing my master's and I had a small income from student loans.

1245
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:15,640
And then I started my Ph.D. and so which I had to quit because I didn't have time for.

1246
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,760
But ultimately, yeah, I got nearly 200 grand in student loan debt.

1247
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:21,040
I mean, it's not like I'm in deep trouble.

1248
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:24,480
I'm in deep trouble for being in this job.

1249
01:12:24,480 --> 01:12:25,480
But I live far away.

1250
01:12:25,480 --> 01:12:26,480
Come and get me, America.

1251
01:12:26,480 --> 01:12:29,480
You know, like I paid it.

1252
01:12:29,480 --> 01:12:31,520
Don't tempt them.

1253
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:34,120
Don't tell them I'm here.

1254
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:38,920
But but but in general, I mean, I think that we need to professionalize the nonprofit world

1255
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:42,760
in the sense that like people aren't going to do good if they can't live a normal life

1256
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:43,960
while doing good.

1257
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,360
We can make so much more money in the private sector.

1258
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:50,920
If I if I just ran a vegan business, I would be rolling in it with the amount of effort

1259
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:53,600
and cash in that I put into it.

1260
01:12:53,600 --> 01:13:00,480
But instead, I'm working in a nonprofit and I get nothing and people think I deserve nothing.

1261
01:13:00,480 --> 01:13:02,200
And that is very frustrating.

1262
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:09,680
And also, I want people to think about what you are against, you know, the the animal

1263
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:13,600
industry, but also the big problems that you're going against.

1264
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:18,240
You know, it's a David versus Goliath situation.

1265
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:21,160
I try to get through a day without punching anyone.

1266
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:25,680
That's my that's actually like if I get to the end of day and I'm like, you didn't scream

1267
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:26,680
at anybody.

1268
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:28,600
You didn't pull a knife on anyone.

1269
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:30,400
Nobody got kicked in the face.

1270
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:32,000
You're doing great, cat.

1271
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:33,000
Keep it up.

1272
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,040
Well, you know, that's my job here.

1273
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:37,600
Well, you need all my job here.

1274
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:42,200
All the possible, you know, best resources behind you.

1275
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:46,240
You need everything in your arsenal to go against that big giant.

1276
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:51,560
So so let's stop this conversation here.

1277
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:59,000
And I would like to express truly how I respect what you do and I admire what you do.

1278
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:03,560
And I think you're so strong for doing what you're doing.

1279
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:11,760
And having taken the time to answer my questions and to explain to listeners what is happening

1280
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:15,800
there and share your insight and experience.

1281
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:19,040
You know, this has been a valuable 10 years.

1282
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:20,040
I learned a lot.

1283
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:21,040
Yeah, exactly.

1284
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,680
You're an expert now on this topic.

1285
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:28,280
And definitely your your voice on that is truly precious.

1286
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,120
So thank you very much, Kat.

1287
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:32,800
Thank you for letting me voice that.

1288
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:38,120
I think it's not it's not often I get to express like the things that have happened

1289
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:40,760
here and discuss kind of the realities on the ground.

1290
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:42,400
So I appreciate it.

1291
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:44,240
Thank you, everyone, for listening.

1292
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:49,120
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans, you know, let's encourage

1293
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:51,560
more people to take action.

1294
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:54,480
Again, thank you so much for caring.

1295
01:14:54,480 --> 01:15:00,320
And I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.