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Welcome to The Vegan Report.

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My name is Ryan and today we are going to talk about veganism and Buddhism.

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There are maybe hundreds, if not thousands of vegan outreach initiatives out there, but

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among them there are relatively very few seeking to open dialogue with religious leaders.

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I think, for instance, that I never saw Earthling Ed debating a rabbi or a priest.

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Yet strategically, I believe it is more valuable to share the vegan message of compassion with

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religious leaders than school children, college kids or random people in the streets, since

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those religious leaders will influence the hearts and minds of believers for decades

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to come.

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For this week's episode, I want to turn my attention to Buddhism, the fourth most practiced

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religion with approximately 500 million followers worldwide.

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To give you an idea of how big this number is, think that the global vegan population

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– this is you and me, listeners – is of approximately 79 million people.

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79 vs 500.

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Imagine what the world would look like if those 500 million Buddhists considered adopting

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veganism.

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To discuss this topic, I have with me a vegan monk, Piku Sonio, who resides at Bodhinyana

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Monastery in Australia.

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Venerable, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Thank you so much, Ryan.

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I haven't really talked about veganism before in my position as a Buddhist monk, but I'm

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happy to do it with you today.

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I do know Earthling Ed as well.

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Really?

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He often engages in very wise debates.

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From the Buddhist perspective, we maybe approach things more from the heart as well.

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Maybe we can talk about that a little bit more later as well.

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From previous conversations with you, I've learned that you already know quite a lot

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about Buddhism as well.

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That's very nice.

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Of course.

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Maybe listeners should know that I have a bias since I identify as a Buddhist.

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Me too.

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I also have a bias.

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Exactly.

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I'll try to be objective in my questioning and thinking about non-Buddhist perspective

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to the conversation.

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The first question I wanted to ask you in order to launch this conversation is, what

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is surprising about Buddhism is that the religion has a long history of respect and regard towards

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animals.

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For example, Ashoka, a Buddhist emperor, issued humanity's first animal welfare laws.

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Of course, there's a long history of Mahayana Buddhism, Buddhist tradition, mostly practiced

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in China, advocating strongly for vegetarianism.

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My first question for you is, why is it that modern-day Buddhists do not embrace more widely

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the animal cause and veganism?

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That's a very good question.

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I didn't know that King Ashoka laid down the first animal rights law.

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That's interesting to know.

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I might have to look that up.

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Why do Buddhists in general not more widely accept veganism or maybe even vegetarianism

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actually is more rare in some tradition than you might expect?

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I have thought about that.

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I of course don't have a definite answer because I would have to ask all Buddhists why they

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individually don't become, for example, vegans.

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I think it's for the exact same reasons that other people in the world don't consider veganism

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more seriously.

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It's just being ill-informed about what is going on in the animal industry, ill-informed

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about that it can be healthy to be a vegan.

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For me to be a vegan, I have to keep encouraging myself and to keep reminding myself that it's

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healthy and that it is very good for animal welfare.

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You have to do some deep digging into the subject to really be 100% convinced about

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its benefits.

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That is something that most Buddhists have not done, just like normal people mostly will

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not have done.

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If they would, I think they would be coming to the conclusion that there is a lot of benefit

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in the vegan diet, not only for themselves but more so also for animal welfare in general.

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For example, this is actually an argument that I've sometimes heard from fellow Buddhists.

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They know that eating meat, eating animal products leads to harm for animals.

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That's very obvious, of course, if you just think about it for a moment.

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But then the argument I've sometimes heard is eating a vegan diet also harms animals

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as well because you still have to produce crops and you have to feed, sorry, you have

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to produce crops and mow the fields and stuff, so you're killing animals just the same.

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But it's a little bit of a simplified argument because most people will not know that.

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I don't know what the exact percentages are, but let's say that 70% or 75% or maybe even

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more of our crops in the world are grown to feed animals.

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Your listeners will probably know this.

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Most of the harvesting and most of the killing of even smaller animals happens to feed bigger

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animals.

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If you want to reduce animal suffering, it's like a double whammy if you become a vegan.

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First of all, you don't kill the cows and the pigs and the chickens.

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You are not involved in their killing.

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So you're less involved in the production of crops in the world.

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You probably know these things much better than I do, but it's like I heard once that

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if all the agriculture that is in the world that supports the livestock industry, all

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the grazing pastures and all the soy production and all the maize production, if that was

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all stopped, then it would open up an area of land the size of Africa, I once heard.

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Maybe it's not that big, but let's say it was half of Africa, then it would still be

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such so much.

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So that gives you a little bit of a perspective on that the raising of cows and pigs actually

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is their killing is not limited just to those cows and pigs, but also in all the agriculture

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that goes before it to produce their feedstock like their soy and whatever else they eat.

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So that's one thing that Buddhists haven't thought about just the same as other people.

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That's just an example, but it goes for other things as well.

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The health benefits, the animal welfare things.

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Buddhists are just also not informed and I think if they were, they would consider it

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more seriously.

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What I get from your answer is that you're optimistic or at least hopeful in the fact

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that if we put some efforts in talking with Buddhists and maybe even religious leaders,

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monastics in the Buddhist community, we would be able to influence them, convince them,

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or make them see that veganism is a better choice.

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And maybe not complete veganism.

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Maybe it's about reducing your animal product intake.

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Maybe it's a more moderate message, but I get the sense that you think that the Buddhist

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population would be receptive to the message.

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I think so because most of your listeners probably won't know much about Buddhism, but

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what they probably do know is that one of the central important aspects in Buddhism

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is compassion and kindness, not only to other humans, but also to all living beings.

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One of the most famous Buddhist chantings is actually about spreading kindness to all

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living beings, whether they are human or animals, strong or weak.

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May all beings be happy, Whatever living beings there may be,

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Whether they are weak or strong, Omitting none,

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The great or the mighty, Medium, short or small,

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And this is something that is very much in the general mindset Buddhist.

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So they should have this compassion towards animals.

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I think most people will have this innate compassion towards animals.

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I don't want to say Buddhists are better in this or whatever, but they at least should

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already be inclined in that direction because of this general tendency to practice compression.

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I think it's just mainly misinformation about what I talked before, but also how bad the

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animal industry actually is, about how much animals are actually harmed in the process

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of making some little bit of food on your plate.

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That is also something that might be something that people in general, but also Buddhists,

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should consider more because it's always in our minds, it's always weighing costs and

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benefits in whatever we do.

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And it's the same with veganism.

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It's like the benefits are it's easier to not be a vegan.

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I mean, the benefits of not being vegan are you can have more choice for whatever you

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eat and you don't have to restrict your desires.

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You don't have to plan your lunches as much.

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But you have to weigh that up against the downsides, which is like what happens to other

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beings in the process.

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So I do have faith that veganism can grow and also can grow inside of Buddhist population

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for that reason.

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But of course, there are other factors weighing in as well, which might give you less faith.

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But I also always try to focus on the things that give me faith.

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Well, then let's focus on that.

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And let's dive right in into the argument, the Buddhist argument for veganism, if I can

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put it this way.

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So you mentioned the Metta Sutta, which is the chanting.

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Yes, the Metta Sutta.

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In that, yes, the Buddha invites us to spread loving kindness to all beings, to all living

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beings.

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Can you give us like an idea of how meaningful that chanting is for Buddhists?

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And what is the function of it in the Buddhist practice?

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Yeah, how meaningful it is to Buddhists, it will differ from individual to individual,

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of course.

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But in general, it is one of the most well-known chantings and also one of the most well-known

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practices.

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So Buddhists, we practice meditation.

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And meditation, most people will know maybe the word mindfulness, most of your listeners.

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And that is one way of meditating.

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But we also have a way of meditating that we actively try to develop positive emotional

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states of mind, and also positive attitudes of the heart.

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So you call it Metta, but it means like kindness or even love towards other beings, not like

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sensual love, but just like the love of a mother to a child is what it says in that

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actual chant, actually.

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So we try to develop that love for all beings.

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And if you do that, you will look at the world differently and you will act differently as

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well.

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I said before, all people will have some innate compassion and love.

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People will know what I'm talking about, even if they're not Buddhists.

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But if you develop it more actively and remind yourself of it, let's say, every day, like

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I do, then it will change your life and it will change not only your mind, but also the

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way you act towards other people and other beings as well.

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For example, we as monks, we also have a rule that we are not allowed to kill even like

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a small insect.

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And if we do, we will have to confess it.

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By killing, I mean like intentional killing, because sometimes you can't avoid it.

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Like I live in a forest, sometimes I walk out door and I step on an ant.

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Okay, I can't really do much about that because they're all over the place.

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You try to avoid it, but we're not supposed to intentionally go around and stomp on ants.

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That's what I'm saying.

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Or even if they invade your private space.

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I once had an ant's nest in my hut.

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We monks, in this monastery, we live in little huts in forest.

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They're not like a wooden hut or something.

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They're made of stone.

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They're sort of pretty strong and nice to live in.

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Once I had like an ant invading in my hut, we're not allowed to kill ants.

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But I thought my mother, she said, yeah, you should use that ant poison stuff that I killed.

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But of course I didn't.

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But eventually I got like a leaf blower and tried to blow them all out of the door.

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That worked pretty well.

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I probably maybe killed some in the process, but not intentionally.

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I did my best because there were like hundreds.

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Anyway, what I'm saying is this practice of loving kindness, ideally is not just something

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that is just a mindset, but also that something that has actual physical results in our actions.

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Well, it's a radical attitude of benevolence towards truly all beings, like you said, including

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ants.

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I find it very incredible in its, like I said, how radical it is and how it encompasses every

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being because I think that historically most philosophical traditions and religions have

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put the emphasis on humanity.

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So you had, for instance, humanism and there was this untruple centrism that came about

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where the main focus is our relationship with other humans and being considerate toward

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other humans and another word for anthropocentrism is human exceptionalism.

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So you had truly a hierarchy of here are the humans, they are like the chosen one, they

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have this genealogy coming from divinity or something like that.

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Then you had the lesser beings who did not deserve the same consideration and same loving

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kindness and those we call animals.

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But I feel like Buddhism blurs the line just by the fact of believing in another core belief

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of Buddhism is reincarnation.

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And so there's this belief that when you die, you could be reborn into an animal, could

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be reborn into the animal realm.

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And so I feel like there is this truly this attitude of, first of all, you're not that

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different from other animals and that makes them just as much deserving of your love and

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consideration.

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Would you agree with that assessment?

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Yes, yes, that's a very good thing actually.

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And some religions, they state in their seminal texts, something like God created animals

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to serve humans or something like that, or humans to rule over the animals or whatever

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it says.

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It says something like that in the Bible, in Genesis or something.

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But in Buddhism, we don't have that kind of idea that certain beings are higher than other

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beings.

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And of course, some beings are more intelligent than others by the virtue of where they're

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born.

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Like if I'm born a human, I'm going to be more intelligent than an ant, probably.

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Even that is actually not, it's a little bit of attention, but not really answering your

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questions.

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Sometimes people say, have this argument for veganism that humans are more intelligent

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than animals, but not all humans are as intelligent.

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Some humans, they have like mental challenges and we don't go kill those humans just because

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they're less intelligent.

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So anyway, you can't judge by intelligence which beings are more worthy of others is

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what I'm saying in a bit of a bad way.

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But to get back to the reincarnation questions or rebirth, yeah, that is something most of

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your listeners may not accept.

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But in Buddhism, that is the general accepted view that we don't have just a single life,

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but we get reborn in other places as well and have been reborn in other lives as well,

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including also as animals as well.

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And it's also said in the text that to reflect upon all other animals that because we've

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been reborn so many times that it is likely that animals you meet, they have been like

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your family members in a past life.

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It sounds a little bit abstract and maybe a bit far-fetched for some of your listeners,

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but that is what Buddhists in general believe, not all Buddhists, but most Buddhists believe.

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And so when you, that is something to maybe Buddhists should reflect upon more as well

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that if you eat a steak, then you're sort of like eating your, I don't know, your mother

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of a past life in a way.

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So that is also something that comes back to this compression as well, to realize that

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animals right now, from a Buddhist perspective, animals in like a slaughterhouse, for example,

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is in a same situation that you might have been in or might be in a future life, maybe

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if you're reborn as a cow again, maybe.

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So what I'm saying is you relate to animals not as a different species or a lower species,

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but you just put themselves in their place.

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And you can do this, of course, without a belief in rebirth, just as well.

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But the belief in rebirth does give it an extra oomph because you know that it is not

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just imagining yourself in a place, but you could be in that place in the next life from

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the Buddhist perspective.

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And that makes another very powerful argument for any, for instance, Buddhist who would

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be listening to this conversation and who is not vegan or who might be considering going

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vegan.

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Yeah, it will make an emotional argument for sure.

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But yeah, I also have to be informed actually how bad these slaughterhouses is because sometimes

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you hear like it's humane killing or animals aren't really hurt.

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They just get like an injection or whatever, like in a gas chamber or something and they

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don't feel anything.

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But if you're, I will not explain this to your listeners, but if you're a little bit

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more informed about what goes on in those kind of slaughterhouses and even in the raising

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of animals, then even in like the production of dairy, a lot of suffering goes on, which

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you'll never expect if you just see like you grab a bottle of milk and it has these happy

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cows in the field on the front.

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And when I was a little boy, I believe that my favorite animal was a cow.

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Even gave, when I was like 10 years old, like you had to give these little talks in primary

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school and I gave like this talk about cows and how great they are to give milk and stuff.

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But now I probably would not give the talk in the same way that I did then because I'm

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more informed.

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Yeah.

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Well, I want to get back to what you said about intelligence because something else

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people tend to do who are not vegan or not truly considerate toward animals is claim.

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Oh, humans are so intelligent and then they will identify all the great inventions and

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all, you know, the symphonies and the rockets and all of those, you know, the medicine and

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they will say that those things, you know, humans have done and animals will never do.

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But there is a flaw with that, which is those things are the result of yes, humans thinking

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and advancing science and all of that, but not all humans.

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One percent of humanity maybe, you know, is responsible for all of those great innovations

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and you know, should we put moral value on the life of someone because of how smart they

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are doesn't seem very compassionate.

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Yeah, that's a nice argument.

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Well, people might argue that the other 99% of people and able other people, you want

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to make the rockets, I don't know.

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But it is just to answer again from a Buddhist perspective, because you invited me in the

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position of a Buddhist monk is that from our perspective, what makes humans great is not

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their achievements in science or technology or even in art or culture.

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What makes humans great or gives humans the possibility to be great is their development

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of their mind and to be wise, not about I studied engineering as a layperson.

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So I had a high degree, but that from a Buddhist perspective, that doesn't make you wise.

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It makes you wise how you act, what you do if you act out of kindness, if you act out

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of less greed and hatred.

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That is what makes humans potentially great.

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And in that sense, animals can often surpass certain humans.

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I live in a forest in Australia and there are all these animals in the forest, but especially

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also kangaroos.

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They will never hurt you.

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They will just even come to you and smell and are interested in you, but they'll never

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go and say anything bad to you or kick you or whatever.

296
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And I'm saying for all the other animals here in the forest, maybe sometimes you didn't

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like a spider bites you, but they don't have any bad intentions.

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It's just the nature of a spider.

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So in that sense, animals are actually, I would say pretty wise actually sometimes.

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And also, this maybe goes for, again, for your general listener, a bit far fetched,

301
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but in Buddhism, we also believe that there is higher beings than humans.

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Humans have all the possibilities to become wise like a Buddha or develop their compassion

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like a Buddha, but we also believe that there's higher beings like what's in other religions

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they might call like angels or gods or whatever.

305
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Most Buddhists believe in that as well.

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And if you come from this perspective of the more higher intelligent being can rule over

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the lower ones, then we should submit that those higher beings should come and do it

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as they want.

309
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But Buddhists will believe in them, they know that they don't do that.

310
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But yeah, it's just that this argument of hierarchy is flawed in my opinion for various

311
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reasons.

312
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Yeah.

313
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Well, even if there is no belief in those reincarnation or in higher beings, just the

314
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fact of having this cosmological perspective is fascinating because all this human narcissism

315
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that we have, this entitlement to just destroy forests and use resources like we want and

316
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exploit animals, all of that is reduced by this vision, by this perspective.

317
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This perspective does not allow such actions or thoughts or ways to be.

318
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Yeah, that's an interesting observation.

319
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If it isn't true, what I'm saying about rebirth and everything, even if it's not true, for

320
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people who believe in it, it changes the way they look at life.

321
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And that is already very powerful in itself.

322
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I believe.

323
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Yeah, or can be anyway.

324
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And you mentioned before killing, you know, how you tried not to kill intentionally living

325
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beings.

326
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That is actually the very first precept that any Buddhist is supposed to take, you know,

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abstaining from killing sentient beings, whatever that being might be, not just humans, but

328
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including animals.

329
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So I guess right off the bat, hunting is out of the question.

330
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But then you have certain Buddhists who will say, okay, eating meat is not killing beings

331
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because I'm purchasing the meat, someone else is doing the killing.

332
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And that argument, I've read it multiple times, you know, online or on all sorts of articles.

333
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And I was wondering if you had the response to that.

334
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Yes, I think those people have a point but also should maybe reflect a bit more deeply

335
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because the first precept is indeed to not intentionally kill animals for ourselves.

336
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So if you eat meat, you're not intentionally killing animals.

337
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When I was a lay person, I already was thinking about a lay person, like before I became a

338
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monk, that's what that means.

339
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And before I was a monk, I already thought about this.

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And I thought, well, I might not be intentionally killing a cow myself when I eat meat, a hamburger

341
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or whatever.

342
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But it is like my diet is connected to the actions of others.

343
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When I go to the store and buy a hamburger, then that gives the message to the store to

344
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buy more hamburgers to sell, which gives a message to the slaughterhouse to kill more

345
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animals.

346
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It's like the sales of their meat directly influences what happens in the world.

347
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So although I wasn't killing animals myself, I still at that point decided to, at that

348
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point, I was a vegetarian mainly because I wasn't informed enough about the dietary side

349
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of veganism.

350
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I thought you needed milk and stuff to be healthy, which I now know isn't true.

351
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But that's what I thought back then.

352
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This is maybe a way to put it.

353
00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:00,600
That first precept is well known for its negative phrasing.

354
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By that I mean, do not kill living beings.

355
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That is the short version.

356
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But in many of the texts, it's actually expanded that first precept.

357
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And it doesn't stop there at the negative.

358
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It actually also adds some positive injunctions as well.

359
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It says, okay, not kill living beings and to live with a compassionate heart towards

360
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all living beings, which is like an idiom says, your swords and rods laid aside, which

361
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means you're not going to stab them or hurt anybody.

362
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But it also is about developing a more kind attitude in general, not just not killing,

363
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but also to make sure that other animals can, just like human animals, can live in a comfortable

364
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,440
way to put it that way.

365
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,720
So yeah, there's more to it than just not killing.

366
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,720
But maybe you have a follow up question for that.

367
00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:15,600
Well, my first, I have two follow up questions.

368
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,740
My first one is why is it the first precept?

369
00:34:18,740 --> 00:34:26,720
Because there are mostly Buddhists will take five precepts and this is the first one.

370
00:34:26,720 --> 00:34:29,160
Is there any importance to that?

371
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,440
The fact that it is the first one?

372
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Not sure if there is.

373
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But even if it's not the first one, it's one of only five.

374
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So it has a prominent place regardless of whether it's the first or the fifth one.

375
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:52,960
Buddhists practice more than just those five rules generally speaking.

376
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And as monastics, monks and nuns, we have many, many more rules than that as well.

377
00:34:59,260 --> 00:35:03,960
But just considering that it's one of the five like seminal rules in Buddhism to not

378
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kill, not just kill like your neighbor or kill other humans, but kill any animals at

379
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,800
all, that is very impressive to me.

380
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,460
And it's even the first year I've never really thought about that.

381
00:35:19,460 --> 00:35:25,440
But generally in Buddhism, things are ordered for specific reasons.

382
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,080
Actually we have all these lists of things in Buddhism.

383
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:29,960
I won't bore your audience with it.

384
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:35,720
But there are some reasons why things are listed and numbered.

385
00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:38,960
And usually there's a reason for it.

386
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:45,320
So maybe it is at the top because it is so important.

387
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:50,560
Because the other rules in there are like not stealing and not lying and those kinds

388
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of things.

389
00:35:51,900 --> 00:36:00,880
But killing is maybe if you engage in it comes from the Buddhist perspective from a more

390
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:09,800
unwholesome unhealthy mindset that even more unwholesome than things like stealing and lying.

391
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:10,800
Maybe that's why.

392
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:19,040
Well, let's talk about that because I think when listeners hear me or hear you say precepts,

393
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:25,540
they hear commandments and they think, oh, what happens if I break those precepts?

394
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Do I go to hell?

395
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,000
And why?

396
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What is the reason for those precepts?

397
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Right.

398
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,160
Yeah.

399
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:38,100
So we call them precepts, but they're more like training rules.

400
00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:44,640
So it's something that we train in and do our best to practice as well as we can.

401
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:52,000
I just talked about that first training rule, first precept about not killing it.

402
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,880
It doesn't just end at not killing.

403
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,840
There's more to it to develop a kind and compassionate heart.

404
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,980
And there is not really an end to developing a kind and compassionate heart.

405
00:37:04,980 --> 00:37:09,100
From a Buddhist perspective, you can develop that for your whole life basically.

406
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:15,500
So it's not like the rule is only about breaking it or not breaking it.

407
00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:19,580
It's about also developing positive sides of it as well.

408
00:37:19,580 --> 00:37:29,920
And even if sometimes you fail to live up to your standards of those rules or those

409
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:36,000
practice rules, let's call them, then you don't go immediately to hell or something

410
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,280
while you do that.

411
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:44,600
It is a means of improving yourself and to realize which things in life are not worth

412
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,040
pursuing and which things in life are worth pursuing.

413
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:54,400
For example, it's a little bit of the topic of veganism, but in case of good analogy,

414
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,060
is the precept about lying.

415
00:37:58,060 --> 00:38:01,440
We practice to not lie and always tell the truth.

416
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:07,200
But many people, they sometimes tell these small, wide lies and make themselves look

417
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,560
better or whatever.

418
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:14,440
Maybe it's not a lie, but it's like a half truth.

419
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:15,840
You know what I'm talking about.

420
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:21,040
And that is just something that is sometimes so ingrained in our system that we just automatically

421
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,280
do it without thinking about it.

422
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,160
The Buddhist practice is to slowly get better at things.

423
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:34,480
So first you stop the big lies like, oh, yeah, I was at my work last night when you actually

424
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,520
were with somebody else or whatever.

425
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:44,760
Those kind of lies, you stop first and then gradually you start also removing bigger lies

426
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:45,760
from your life.

427
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:51,960
And it's the same with the killing precept as well.

428
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,520
You start where you can and try to improve yourself as a person.

429
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:57,520
That's what it's all about.

430
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,320
Maybe that's the way to summarize it.

431
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,200
It's about improving yourself as a person.

432
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:08,320
And it's unlike other religions, we don't have like a divine deity who's looking over

433
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,380
us and punishes us when we do something wrong.

434
00:39:11,380 --> 00:39:16,160
It's all about our own minds and about how we live our lives.

435
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:25,600
So if we kill, even if you kill a human being, it's not that there is some divine force who

436
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:30,320
writes it down in a big book and when you die, they'll come and tell you about, no,

437
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:40,680
it's all about our own being, our own minds that we try to be more kind and more compassionate.

438
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:47,400
And that is, first of all, because it leads to happiness for ourselves.

439
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,280
Because when you are kind, you're always much more happy than when you're angry.

440
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,600
And when you're killing beings, you're actually hurting inside as well.

441
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,240
But it's also for the benefit of other beings as well.

442
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:04,440
Why we practice all these rules with not killing, it's obvious.

443
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:10,280
But even with things like lying, it's not just for our own peace of mind that we don't

444
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:18,920
try to lie, but also for other beings as well that they can live in trust with us and don't

445
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,480
have to always doubt.

446
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:28,560
I wish more vegans would take that perspective with their veganism.

447
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:36,280
And here I'm talking mostly about new vegans because they have kind of like an Abrahamic

448
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,760
religious expectation towards their veganism.

449
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,920
They think of it as being commandments.

450
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:53,240
And if they start eating animal products and if they can't have a vegan meal someday at

451
00:40:53,240 --> 00:41:00,480
work or something like that, if they added some cheese and something at some point, well,

452
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,480
they feel so bad.

453
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:02,640
They feel guilty.

454
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:12,680
And I truly think that this perspective, this way of looking at veganism is not conducive

455
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:18,360
to keeping up with your veganism in the long term.

456
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:27,880
And so I wish vegans would look at it more of like a progressive and soft approach, like

457
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,360
a practice instead of like a religious commandment.

458
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,480
Yeah, I think that's very good, Ryan.

459
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,520
I agree with that.

460
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:43,640
Sometimes we can look at things in life in very much of a black and white perspective.

461
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:48,080
Either I succeed or I fail and there's no in between.

462
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,840
And that is also an attitude many people bring towards veganism.

463
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:58,520
Sometimes even before they even try it, they're like, ah, I'm not going to be able to eat

464
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:03,280
100% vegan diet, so why should I even try?

465
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:08,320
But that is all already, first of all, you give up before you even try, which it's never

466
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:09,320
a good thing to do.

467
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,560
But also it is, as I said, black and white thinking.

468
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,280
Either you succeed or you don't.

469
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,800
But there's also such a big gray area in between.

470
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:26,280
And you don't have to be perfectly white to be able to make a big impact in the world.

471
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:34,760
As a monk, I am a vegan, as I said before, that's what I call myself anyway.

472
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:40,620
But as a monk, your listeners most of them will know that we rely on donations of food

473
00:42:40,620 --> 00:42:43,620
from other people.

474
00:42:43,620 --> 00:42:44,960
We don't cook ourselves.

475
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,960
We rely upon whatever food people bring us.

476
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,580
And there are various reasons for that.

477
00:42:54,580 --> 00:43:00,840
So people keep in contact with the monks and also so we don't have any money as well as

478
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,520
in our tradition.

479
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,400
So we can't even buy food.

480
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:20,200
But because of that, if a monk or nun wants to be a vegan, it's more difficult than for

481
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:28,280
a nun or a Dane person because you don't have the ability to go to the store and buy whatever

482
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:29,280
you like.

483
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:34,040
You're always dependent upon what other people bring.

484
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:42,600
And in some monasteries, that's more easy to do to be vegan as a monastic than in others.

485
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:50,960
But as a monastic, because I am not always in control of my food, it sometimes happens

486
00:43:50,960 --> 00:44:00,000
that I think a certain dish is vegan, that I take that dish and put it in my monks bowl.

487
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,240
We have these bowls for the recording.

488
00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:09,800
You can see it's like a bowl we put food in for the video recording.

489
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:16,680
And sometimes I always try to get vegan dishes, but sometimes it ends up I put the food in

490
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:25,120
and I go back to my heart to eat it and I open up and it ends up maybe if it's particularly

491
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:30,600
has like cheese or meat in it, then I would take that out.

492
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,180
But sometimes it can be that you don't know.

493
00:44:33,180 --> 00:44:34,680
That's what I'm trying to say.

494
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:46,840
Like does this dish, was it made in vegetable oil or maybe some animal products?

495
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,520
I don't know.

496
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,440
So you can't be perfect as a monastic when you're trying to be vegan, at least not in

497
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:53,960
my tradition.

498
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,320
I do my best to be as good as possible.

499
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:05,240
But if I would have that attitude of wanting to be 100% perfect about it, then that would

500
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:12,720
create a lot of difficulties and then I probably wouldn't be able to do what I do now, which

501
00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:22,200
is at least be 99% vegan and sometimes maybe something slips through the cracks, which

502
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,960
is just the way it is.

503
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:33,880
So I would encourage everybody who is considering veganism also to not have that black and white

504
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:38,320
attitude, but just go day by day.

505
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:44,720
This is another beautiful practice of Buddhism is to live in the present moment and present

506
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:49,400
moment doesn't just mean in meditation you focus on the here and now, but it also means

507
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:54,440
don't worry too much about the future or the past in more general terms.

508
00:45:54,440 --> 00:46:01,280
Don't go and plan out your whole life right now because it won't happen the way you plan

509
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:02,520
it anyway.

510
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:07,520
But even with veganism, don't envision yourself that you have to be a vegan for your whole

511
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,880
life in order for it to succeed.

512
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,920
Just start today and practice it for one day, see how that goes.

513
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,160
And then tomorrow is another day and another day and another day.

514
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:24,400
I never said a vow for myself that I'm going to be a vegan for my whole life because it's

515
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:32,520
just creates this unnecessary tension and unnecessary weight upon yourself.

516
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:37,560
But if I just say, oh, I'm going to be a vegan today, then it's very easy.

517
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,520
And tomorrow is the next day, I'm going to be a vegan today.

518
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:41,520
Yay.

519
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,480
And the next day, oh, yeah, let's be vegan today.

520
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:50,040
And I reflect upon it almost every day when I eat my food.

521
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:57,160
As monastics, we have this reflection we do before we eat food to not eat food for indulgence

522
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:58,960
but for the sake of health.

523
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,840
But also one of the words in there is to avoid harm in that reflection.

524
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,680
That's a reflection that the Buddha gave to avoid harm.

525
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:14,280
And when I eat my food every day, I reflect, oh, I was able to get vegan food again today.

526
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:20,640
So we have avoided some harm in whatever abstract sense that is.

527
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,240
Because as a monk and nun, if you're not able to choose your own food, it sometimes also

528
00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:27,880
feels like you're making less of an impact by being a vegan.

529
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:29,280
But that's another topic.

530
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:38,120
But every day to celebrate every day that you were able to do veganism or vegetarianism

531
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:45,800
or whatever today and not to only celebrate it if you're able to do it for your whole

532
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:46,800
life.

533
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:52,040
That is, I think, an attitude which will make it much more easy to do.

534
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:53,040
Yeah.

535
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,240
Thank you for sharing that.

536
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:56,560
It's truly beautiful.

537
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:07,760
I think it gives another meaning to being vegan when you start putting truly intention

538
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:15,120
in your veganism, like you said before, eating, thinking about what you're eating and why

539
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,520
you're eating what you're eating.

540
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:24,680
I want to ask you more about your personal journey, your monastic journey, and also your

541
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,800
vegan journey.

542
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:34,480
First, one last point about metta, this loving kindness, this compassion, this benevolence

543
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:39,520
towards all beings that we have been talking about.

544
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:44,680
There are people out there who are animal abusers.

545
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:57,960
And vegans, usually we have lots of anger and strong feelings towards those people and

546
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:03,200
distress too and sadness towards what they're doing.

547
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:10,720
And I'm thinking here from the workers in the factories, in the slaughterhouses, the

548
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:20,760
butchers, the hunters, the people profiting from that business of meat trade to the people

549
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:29,240
we see on the news abusing their dogs and cats and fish, to the pet store owners.

550
00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:37,160
There's a whole bunch of people out there who not only do not align with vegan attitudes

551
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:43,640
and values and beliefs, but go at the opposite of them.

552
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:51,160
And I think many vegans have developed this kind of misentropy.

553
00:49:51,160 --> 00:50:02,980
They start to hate humans or have many deep resentments towards their species.

554
00:50:02,980 --> 00:50:11,840
When I first became vegan, I did have those moments of being angry towards family members

555
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:17,400
or friends who eat meat and are not receptive to my vegan preaching.

556
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:26,760
So I was wondering what would be the Buddhist attitude and view towards those people, this

557
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:33,440
whole spectrum of people who go against vegan principles?

558
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,880
Yeah, that's true.

559
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:41,360
You can have this feeling of resentment to people who do that sort of stuff that you've

560
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:42,360
mentioned.

561
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,440
But probably when you started preaching to your family, they also had some resentment

562
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,440
towards you as well.

563
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,240
You used the word preaching.

564
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:57,600
So I was envisioning you around the dinner table and telling them what to eat and what

565
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:58,600
not to eat.

566
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,000
Then they'll feel resentment towards you as well.

567
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,000
I was annoying.

568
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:07,680
I confess I was super annoying.

569
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:09,800
But you thought you were coming from a right place, right?

570
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:10,800
When you were doing it.

571
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:11,800
And you were probably.

572
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:17,840
Well, yeah, but I was mindless, I think.

573
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:25,400
This is also the case to some extent when people kill other animals, abuse them, engage

574
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:32,440
in the meat trade or any of that stuff that from another perspective, you might feel resentful

575
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:42,720
towards is that they are doing what they think is okay, sometimes even good.

576
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:50,720
Because for example, butchers might not have that perspective on animals that they are

577
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:57,200
just as sentient as human beings and they look at them more like as an object.

578
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:01,240
And of course, from another perspective, you might think, oh, that's so stupid.

579
00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:06,800
But if you put yourself in the shoes of that butcher, they also have a family to feed.

580
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:13,160
So they start killing animals, not just because they're angry with animals or something like

581
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:14,160
that.

582
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,560
That's not what butchers do.

583
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,680
And it's because they have families to feed.

584
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:23,640
And this is especially a little bit of a sad situation with slaughterhouse workers, not

585
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:32,600
like the butcher on the market, but people who are in these big factories.

586
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:39,360
It's often just the only job they're able to get in their area.

587
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:45,200
And if they wouldn't have that job, then what else are they going to do?

588
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:49,400
They end up on the street sometimes.

589
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:59,360
And if you look at it like that, you can understand why people be more abusive or do that sort

590
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,600
of work.

591
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:07,240
And you don't feel resentful towards them because you know if you would have been in

592
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:13,320
that exact same situation, you would have had the exact same mind as them, imagine that

593
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,840
you would, then you would do the exact same thing.

594
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:25,440
And we can always understand every kind of action that humans do.

595
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:32,720
People do a lot of bad things, but in the end, they always do it because they think

596
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:40,160
that is from a strange perspective, but they always feel that that is the right thing to

597
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,880
do.

598
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:52,640
Even if you go kill another tribe or whatever, because you think you need that land for your

599
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:53,640
own tribe.

600
00:53:53,640 --> 00:54:01,200
And in a sense, there is a little bit of compassion even in that, although it's compassion only

601
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,400
for yourself and your own tribe and not for the other tribe.

602
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:10,440
So it's very limited compassion, but it's a kind of compassion as well.

603
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:15,920
And I look upon people in the meat industry like that, like they are stuck in a situation

604
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:20,080
that they have to feed themselves and their family.

605
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:28,800
If there would be alternatives, then they would be easily available, then they would

606
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,000
make the switch right away.

607
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:33,320
That's what I think.

608
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:39,600
So I don't feel resentful towards also animal farmers.

609
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:44,960
Often people have been animal farmers for generations.

610
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:50,320
Their fathers and mothers were animal farmers, their grandfathers were, goes back all the

611
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:51,320
way.

612
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:58,240
And then of course, it's not easy to suddenly drop that whole tradition and start raising

613
00:54:58,240 --> 00:55:05,600
and not animals, but growing, I don't know, corn or whatever.

614
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,720
It's not easy for them to make that switch.

615
00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:13,440
So you can put yourself in their shoes and understand.

616
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:18,200
And in that way, you don't have to be resentful towards other people.

617
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:25,400
And also, maybe this is more relevant sometimes, not be resentful to other people who choose

618
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:30,280
to have a different diet than a vegan diet.

619
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:39,160
Sometimes I realized for myself, when I have all these downsides of a non-vegan diet, freshly

620
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:47,120
in my mind and all the benefits of a vegan diet, also freshly in my mind, then I think

621
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:53,040
like, how can you be so stupid to eat meat?

622
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:57,280
How can you be so stupid to drink dairy and stuff?

623
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,600
It's not healthy and you're just harming all the animals.

624
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:07,920
I don't get resentful, but I can imagine how people can be resentful towards other people

625
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,880
around them who don't follow a vegan diet.

626
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:18,280
But then probably most of your audience at some point in their lives also weren't vegan.

627
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,160
Most of them probably grew up also eating animal products.

628
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:22,840
I did anyway.

629
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:29,720
And I ate a lot of meat, especially when I was a lay person.

630
00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:34,440
And then I just remember what I was like then.

631
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:42,280
And I just couldn't see.

632
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:48,360
To get back to the start of our conversation, people are often just not informed enough.

633
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,320
And you can't blame people for not being informed enough.

634
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:57,080
All you can do is try to inform them and then have them make their decisions based on that.

635
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:04,360
That's why I love projects like this podcast of yours, Ryan, because it'll reach some

636
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:11,080
people and inform them hopefully about these kinds of subjects.

637
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:17,200
We have touched previously on how you are a monastic and you're also vegan.

638
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:23,080
And you mentioned some of the challenges of being vegan and being a monastic.

639
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:27,280
Why did you make the choice of becoming vegetarian and then vegan?

640
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,040
What convinced you?

641
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:33,200
Yeah, I wasn't a vegan before I was a monk.

642
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,840
I was a vegetarian though.

643
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,560
It's been a long time.

644
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:45,440
I came to this monastery 10 years ago and I became a monk nine years ago.

645
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:52,680
Before that, as you said, I was already practicing vegetarianism.

646
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,260
That convinced me.

647
00:57:55,260 --> 00:57:56,260
It's been a long time.

648
00:57:56,260 --> 00:58:02,720
I can't really remember, but it must have been the animal welfare thing again.

649
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,320
I was already a practicing Buddhist at that time.

650
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:12,720
I practice in a tradition by a monk called Thich Nhat Hanh.

651
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:21,800
He is more aimed towards veganism than many other Buddhists.

652
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:26,760
His tradition is entirely vegan.

653
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,600
His monastic tradition is.

654
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:30,600
Our tradition is not.

655
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,680
I mean, it's ordained in a different tradition.

656
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:41,440
But I was practicing as an ordained person, as a lay person in that tradition.

657
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:49,520
I think it was at that time that I started becoming vegetarian because I realized that

658
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:59,320
it is very much in alignment with Buddhist ideas to stop eating meat for all the reasons

659
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:02,280
that we've talked about before.

660
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:11,760
I didn't become a vegan because I think I said before, I was not properly informed about

661
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:16,920
the dietary side of things and also about the animal welfare side of things.

662
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:25,960
I had this idea of dairy cows, they just live in a field and they grow old and they become

663
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:27,680
grandmothers and whatever.

664
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:28,680
But it's not like that.

665
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:29,680
They also get killed.

666
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:35,000
They're basically still a kid themselves in a sense.

667
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:42,400
If you compare animal life to human years, I think dairy cows get killed when they're

668
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,600
like in their teens for a human.

669
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:48,800
I think they're like four or five years old.

670
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:53,040
But anyway, I didn't know all those things, so I was just a vegetarian.

671
00:59:53,040 --> 01:00:00,800
But then I ordained in a monastery where vegetarianism is not widely practiced, although there's

672
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:05,560
other monks who do it as well.

673
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:13,940
At the start, when I came to this monastery, I was able to still be a vegetarian.

674
01:00:13,940 --> 01:00:18,320
But it was already harder for the reasons that I talked about before.

675
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:23,240
You don't have the choice of your own food, which even if you're not a vegetarian can

676
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,480
sometimes already be difficult.

677
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:27,760
You just have to eat whatever people give you.

678
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:33,840
To be honest, in this monastery, we get a lot of food, so the support is great.

679
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:36,760
But you're not always in this monastery.

680
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:41,000
We monks, we travel around as well.

681
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:45,520
We call ourselves monks, but we're not like Christian monks who stay in one monastery

682
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:46,520
their whole life.

683
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:54,760
We actually go to other places and we're also sometimes invited to eat at people's houses.

684
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,040
And then we often accept those invitations.

685
01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:00,720
And then you don't get as much choice about your food.

686
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:06,120
So sometimes it was very difficult being a vegetarian.

687
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:10,480
And then on top of making that whole switch of living in a monastery, which is already

688
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:11,480
difficult.

689
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:17,280
So after maybe one or two years, actually I gave up on vegetarianism living here.

690
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:22,960
I also felt like I'm not making the same difference that I was before as a lay person.

691
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,280
Because as a lay person, at least when I had to go to the store, I had a choice.

692
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:35,520
I either buy the vegan thing or I buy the meat thing.

693
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:40,440
And even that is already a little bit of a distance from the actual killing.

694
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:46,920
But at least you have this financial power to financial vote to say, I'm not going to

695
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:48,400
buy this, I'm going to buy that.

696
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:52,000
If you live in a monastery and you're just relying on what people bring you, you don't

697
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:53,320
even have that.

698
01:01:53,320 --> 01:02:02,880
So and especially when I was here at the start as just a guest, I felt like, yeah, what difference

699
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,680
is it now making in the world?

700
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:08,720
Nothing I felt like.

701
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:14,260
And so for all those reasons, I actually gave up on vegetarianism for a while.

702
01:02:14,260 --> 01:02:20,640
But at some point, people started asking questions of me when I was a monk, like why are monks

703
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:22,760
not vegan?

704
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,520
And why are vegetarian?

705
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:28,400
And I actually didn't have good answers.

706
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,200
And then I realized I actually I should do this again.

707
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:37,800
I should become vegetarian and why not go all the way vegan?

708
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:44,240
So that was been like four years ago, maybe something like that, four years.

709
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:53,800
And since then, I've also realized that there actually is an impact I'm making, even though

710
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,920
it's not financial.

711
01:02:56,920 --> 01:03:06,280
When people learn about monks being vegan or vegetarian, then it inspires them, especially

712
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,480
when they're vegan themselves.

713
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:15,560
And I think that is a more important impact than just the financial impact of not buying

714
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:22,520
meat, because that is sort of my job as a monk is to inspire, especially other Buddhists

715
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:26,840
to practice the Buddhist religion.

716
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:30,460
And many Buddhists are vegan.

717
01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:35,360
And then when they see that monks are not vegan, they get very disappointed and uninspired.

718
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:42,320
So I think it's sort of my job to show that monks and nuns, well, I'm not a nun, but to

719
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:46,960
show that panastics in general can also be vegan.

720
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:52,280
And those Buddhists who are vegan that I know find that very helpful.

721
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,720
So in that way, I do have an impact.

722
01:03:55,720 --> 01:04:02,280
And I have to keep reminding myself of it, because it's still sometimes hard from a dietary

723
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:07,840
point of view to be a vegan if you can't control your own food.

724
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:14,480
It's been a while ago, but I was invited to a Thai restaurant to get it with some other

725
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:16,640
monks to go and eat there.

726
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:18,560
And it was like a new restaurant.

727
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:27,680
It was in one of the most expensive areas of Perth, where I live close by on this quay,

728
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:29,160
this new area.

729
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,360
And it's a really fancy restaurant.

730
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:38,880
And so they invite us then to not just eat there, but do a little blessing and hopefully

731
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:40,640
for the success of that restaurant.

732
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:43,400
That's the idea.

733
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,480
All I could eat there was rice and a banana.

734
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:51,640
Well, that was a whole table full of dishes, but they all had meat in them.

735
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:53,560
So that is just an example.

736
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:54,560
And that's not an exception.

737
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,760
That happened other times as well.

738
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:03,920
So luckily, that doesn't happen very often because that can make it very difficult.

739
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,460
But it does pose challenges.

740
01:05:06,460 --> 01:05:13,040
But now I'm able to face those challenges more with a positive mindset like, okay, this

741
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:14,720
is worth it.

742
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:19,360
Sometimes struggle a little bit with what food you eat.

743
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:26,400
And I also have to say that the more senior I become as a monk and the more people learn

744
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:34,860
about my veganism, the more often they actively support it.

745
01:05:34,860 --> 01:05:41,040
We are supposed to just not demand any kind of food.

746
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:46,120
We can't really ask of laypeople, bring us this food, bring us that food.

747
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:53,640
But once they learn that you're a vegan, they will know and they'll happily go out of their

748
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:55,340
ways to bring vegan food.

749
01:05:55,340 --> 01:06:02,000
So all these Buddhists have been very, these supporters have been very inspiring as well.

750
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,000
And that's also what keeps me going now.

751
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:08,000
So that was my journey with veganism.

752
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:13,080
And I hope to be able to do it today again.

753
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:14,080
You know what I'm saying?

754
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,960
I was going to say I hope to be able to do it for the rest of my life, but then I remembered

755
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,000
my own instruction from earlier.

756
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:24,200
So I'm just going to do it day by day.

757
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:25,200
Yeah.

758
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:26,560
Yes, day by day.

759
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:33,000
And it brings home the point I was making in my introduction.

760
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:40,080
I do believe your role is important and that you bring inspiration.

761
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:41,760
I know that you inspire me.

762
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:51,040
I'm inspired to see a monastic who's vegan and who understands what it is about.

763
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:58,640
Because often you hear, you know, other community leaders, not just religious leaders, but also

764
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:06,840
politicians that we vote for and they reject veganism, but they're not rejecting veganism.

765
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:12,040
They're rejecting the idea they have of veganism and it's the wrong idea.

766
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:15,960
So it's a misunderstanding of veganism.

767
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:18,560
They don't understand what veganism is about.

768
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:24,880
They don't understand the ethical argument and that's what they are rejecting and criticizing

769
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:29,340
or not being receptive to.

770
01:07:29,340 --> 01:07:36,760
And so to see, you know, leaders who not only understand what is veganism about, but also

771
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:42,320
have decided to adopt it and support it, it is truly inspiring.

772
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:43,760
Thank you for that.

773
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:50,800
I'm not exactly sure what kind of misinformed view of veganism people might have, but I'm

774
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:56,640
happy to hear that it's inspiring for people like you to see religious leaders to adopt

775
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:58,000
veganism.

776
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:07,920
And even if all the animal welfare and health and environmental issues, all these things

777
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:13,880
we haven't even talked about, but your listeners will know about, even if those would not be

778
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:20,640
so much of an issue, then for me in my position as a Buddhist monk, it is important to, you

779
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:30,600
know, be able to inspire or at least not discourage any kind of people who might be interested

780
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:34,120
in my religion.

781
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:41,840
For example, I've heard from fellow vegan Buddhists, we have a little connections here

782
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:49,160
as well, of course, that sometimes they bring their friends to the monastery, their vegan

783
01:08:49,160 --> 01:09:00,840
friends, and they see how much animal products the other people bring and that the monastics

784
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:02,680
eat them as well.

785
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:08,760
And then they get really discouraged and never come back to the monastery ever again.

786
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:16,120
And to me, that's so saddening because they shouldn't ideally just be put off from visiting

787
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:18,480
the monastery for that reason.

788
01:09:18,480 --> 01:09:23,320
If they are put off from Buddhism for any of its philosophical ideas, if they don't

789
01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:30,320
accept the compassion thing or they don't accept the rebirth thing and say, Buddhism

790
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:37,920
is just a stupid religion philosophically, then that is fine with me if they reject Buddhism

791
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:39,060
because of that.

792
01:09:39,060 --> 01:09:47,040
But if they are discouraged for something that I am so that I'm in a position to do something

793
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:55,160
about like something as simple as changing what I eat, if they are discouraged because

794
01:09:55,160 --> 01:10:01,240
of the diet, then I think that's something I should do something about.

795
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:09,840
And I know for a fact that there are people who are happy to see monastics enjoy a vegan

796
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:11,060
diet as well.

797
01:10:11,060 --> 01:10:17,100
Even actually, I enjoy it more than my diet before actually.

798
01:10:17,100 --> 01:10:25,040
I think it's more tasty now that it's only difficult when you have only rice as an option.

799
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:33,120
But even then actually, now it's not difficult anymore because the taste of meat and dairy

800
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:39,360
products start becoming repulsive to me like, why would you eat that even?

801
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:45,360
Even thinking about it now, I get this shiver like, I don't want to eat that.

802
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:47,680
So now it's very easy actually.

803
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:52,560
But anyway, I'm happy that it inspires some people.

804
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:58,800
Hopefully more people will be inspired to pick it up in the future as well because it

805
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:05,360
does have a lot of benefits for everybody involved, the practitioner of veganism as

806
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:08,360
well as the animals.

807
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:18,200
The misunderstanding part, I was talking about an example of that that comes to mind is a

808
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:24,480
politician, a well-known politician here in Quebec, in Canada, where I am.

809
01:11:24,480 --> 01:11:33,720
He spoke out publicly against a few vegan activists who intruded into a farm to protest.

810
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:43,360
And he said, the parliament, he said publicly, my message to vegan Quebecers is there are

811
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:50,120
people in Quebec who like the taste of meat and you should respect that.

812
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:53,000
And I was thinking, I also like the taste of meat.

813
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:57,840
This is not why I became vegan.

814
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:04,880
You're not getting why, what is this about truly?

815
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:12,920
And I think that there are more and more people, not just vegans, but who look at religious

816
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:22,600
leaders and we think of religious leaders as the one who have moral clarity, who are

817
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:32,480
here to guide us through all sorts of difficult, complex choices and decisions we make in our

818
01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:33,960
lives.

819
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:41,440
And I think their authority and their legitimacy can be undermined when we see them supporting

820
01:12:41,440 --> 01:12:49,440
such a horrific industry and not denouncing it or at least not being sympathetic to the

821
01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:50,960
animal protection cause.

822
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:58,760
Yeah, yeah, so I can understand why people get put off by some of the more rebellious

823
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:00,400
side of the vegan movement.

824
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:02,040
Let's put it that way.

825
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:08,960
Yeah, if people go and infiltrate animal farms and whatever, I don't have any objections

826
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:09,960
to it myself.

827
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:14,200
I would probably support those people as long as they don't hurt anybody else.

828
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:20,440
But yeah, I think we can approach veganism from different perspectives as well.

829
01:13:20,440 --> 01:13:26,200
I think maybe that as you say, there's the religious side, not just Buddhism, but other

830
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:27,200
religions as well.

831
01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:30,200
I know you've spoken to a priest as well in your podcast.

832
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:33,200
Yes, a Catholic.

833
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:34,200
Okay.

834
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:35,200
Yeah.

835
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:38,640
And I think those have something to offer in the conversation as well.

836
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,040
Yeah, I agree.

837
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:49,400
As maybe a parting question, I wanted to ask about Dharma voices for animals.

838
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:52,640
I think I got the name correctly.

839
01:13:52,640 --> 01:14:06,360
This is I think the only global organization of vegan advocacy by and directed to Buddhists

840
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:14,040
and more specifically monastics, so maybe Buddhist religious leaders.

841
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:19,000
Can you tell us a little bit about this organization and how we can support it?

842
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:22,800
Yeah, I'm not directly involved in it myself.

843
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:26,160
They have chapters all over the world.

844
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:33,040
And the chapter here in Western Australia is sort of in hibernation a little bit.

845
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:38,440
They used to meet more often than they do now.

846
01:14:38,440 --> 01:14:43,080
The people who were involved still come together and I think they're trying to publish some

847
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:47,200
sort of booklets and stuff.

848
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:53,040
But there is a Buddhist organization, Dharma Voices for Animals, and the word Dharma is

849
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:59,120
D-H-A-R-M-A, and then Voices for Animals.

850
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:02,120
And as I said, I'm not directly involved with it myself.

851
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:10,120
I know some of the leaders here from the Western Australia chapter, but we haven't done too

852
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:12,160
much lately anyway.

853
01:15:12,160 --> 01:15:19,200
But I know it's more active in some other countries like I think the US and Sri Lanka

854
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:21,800
and things like that.

855
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:27,600
And I would gladly support them for what they do.

856
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:33,840
I will leave a link in the description for people who want to check out their website.

857
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:40,320
So Venerable, did you have anything more to add to the conversation before I stop the

858
01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:41,320
recording?

859
01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:49,280
I think we touched upon all the main things that I would have liked to address, but I

860
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:58,000
want to just once more highlight this point of not being perfect in veganism.

861
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:06,200
And this is not just because an attitude of perfectionism makes veganism harder, but also

862
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:09,400
makes our whole life harder.

863
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:19,480
And we talked a lot about veganism from this perspective of benefiting animals in the sense

864
01:16:19,480 --> 01:16:21,380
that they don't get harm.

865
01:16:21,380 --> 01:16:31,680
But from a spiritual perspective, we can also practice veganism for our own benefits.

866
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:35,800
And maybe that sounds a little bit selfish, but I don't mean it in that sense.

867
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:45,040
I mean it in the sense of when we have the right attitude towards our food, or the right

868
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:50,800
attitude, I mean, have a better attitude towards what we eat and have come out of compassion.

869
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:59,320
And as I said, not to eat in a way that causes harm, then we ourselves become more happy

870
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:01,680
people in my experience.

871
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:03,800
And so we benefit from it as well.

872
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:12,160
And if we then have this attitude of perfectionism, then we can take away much of that benefit

873
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:16,400
that we are able to get out of practicing veganism.

874
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:24,720
Even if you just practice veganism for a day and reflect upon it, I probably caused less

875
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:28,480
animal suffering today, then you can be very happy for that.

876
01:17:28,480 --> 01:17:36,080
And then if the next day, maybe you're not able to do it for whatever social reason or

877
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:43,560
whatever, then you don't beat yourself up for it, but just try again the next day.

878
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:49,080
I think that is the main message I would like to leave people with.

879
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:50,080
Amazing.

880
01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:57,040
So again, thank you so much, Venerable, for having accepted my invitation and having answered

881
01:17:57,040 --> 01:17:59,600
my questions.

882
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:00,840
Thank you very much, Ryan.

883
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:05,400
And I wish you much success with your podcast.

884
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:07,280
Thank you everyone for listening.

885
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:11,600
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

886
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:14,640
Let's encourage more people to take action.

887
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:43,080
Again, thank you so much for caring, and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.