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Back in 2003, the highest grossing movie was Finding Nemo.

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And that year, Finding Nemo was competing with Pirates of the Caribbean, The Matrix

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Reloaded and the third Lord of the Rings movie.

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And it is understandable, the Pixar animation work is genius.

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The characters are funny and touching at times.

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The storyline is thoughtful and speaks to a wide audience.

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But what really compels me about the story of Finding Nemo is its animal rights dimension.

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For the first time ever, we had a movie depicting fish and other sea life as individual sentient

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creatures.

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Of course, they were anthropomorphized to a certain degree, but still, for once, they

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were represented as more than food.

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Other than that, the whole plot of the movie revolved around an act of animal abuse, the

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capture and captivity of Nemo in an aquarium, the habit humans have of turning marine life

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into indoor decoration.

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And this is the topic of today's episode.

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To discuss this issue, I have with me Gwendolyn Church, the founder of Friends of Philip,

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a fish and aquatic animal sanctuary based in Reno, Nevada in the United States.

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Gwendolyn, thank you so much for being here.

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Hi, thank you so much for having me.

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So most people were completely blunt about the animal rights message in Finding Nemo,

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so much so that there might have been a spike in clownfish sales after the release of the

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movie.

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And I feel like it's a symptom of how fish is still viewed as nothing more than food.

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It is so hard for people to consider fish as being sentient.

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So Gwendolyn, do you share that observation?

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And do you have an idea of why it is so hard for people to care about fish?

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I do share that view.

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And I think a huge part of why it's difficult for us to connect to fish is because we live

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in such different worlds.

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Most of us in our lives will interact with terrestrial farmed animals in one way or another,

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whether it's meeting a cow or just driving past a field of sheep or something like that.

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We see them day to day.

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And we don't have anything even close to that with fish.

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For most people, the way that they will interact with a fish most often is through eating them.

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And then we may or may not encounter fish as, you know, quote unquote, pet animals kept in

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aquariums, either in the home or in the pet store or visiting an aquarium or something

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like that.

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And I think that kind of inherent separation that comes with just the very different environments

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that we live in makes it a bit more difficult for people to connect to fish.

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And on top of that, fish aren't what many people would consider kind of classically

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cute the way a dog is or a cow or many of the terrestrial animals that we also love.

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And so it can be really hard, I think, for people to look at a fish and connect to that

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animal as an individual and recognize that they really are an individual.

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And I think what compounds that is when we do meet fish in captivity, it's either as

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a very kind of passing moment in an aquarium, you know, like going to visit a big aquarium

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or something like that, or as a basically decoration, like you said, in someone's home.

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And we don't spend the time looking at that animal and interacting with them as an individual.

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We just say, oh, wow, what a pretty fish and kind of move on.

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And even more so, you know, we'll encounter a fish who is maybe not being treated very

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well.

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And most of us don't recognize what that looks like.

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So if I meet a dog and I can see that the dog is thin or sick or not doing well, like

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a lot of people, I think, can recognize that pretty easily.

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And it's harder for most of us to see that when we look at a fish.

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So people might encounter a fish in a bowl and say, wow, fish are so boring when the

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takeaway should be, wow, that fish is very mistreated and they're not feeling well.

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So what makes a fish sentient?

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Can we make if someone is listening to this and they are not convinced that a fish is

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sentient?

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What would you say to that person?

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I think that that person should probably read up a bit more on our scientific understanding

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of fish and fish's experiences.

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You know, there have been all kinds of studies, some horrible experiments done to fish that,

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you know, let us know that we scientifically know that fish are sentient.

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We know that they feel pain.

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We know that they want to avoid pain.

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We know that they remember places and faces.

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We know that they remember individuals.

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We know that there are some species of fish who can recognize themselves in a mirror.

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So we know all of that scientifically.

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But I think even more importantly, I would encourage that person to find a way to interact

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with fish on an individual level, because all you have to do is meet one fish who is

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happy and healthy and treated well.

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And it's just so apparent that they're sentient and that they're an individual.

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So is it the solution to resolving this wrong view about fish?

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Is the solution to encourage interactions with marine life?

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I think it is in a certain sense, as long as we're doing it responsibly.

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You know, I don't think that the way that we should strive to connect with fish is by

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purchasing them as pets and bringing them into our home.

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I don't think that the way that we should interact with fish is by pulling them out

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of their homes so that they can live in aquariums.

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I think the way that we should best interact with fish is the way that we should interact

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with all animals, which is meeting them on their terms and being respectful of them as

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individuals.

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And what do you think about people who, I guess, have that interaction but still hold

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that view about fish?

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For example, fishermen.

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I cannot think of someone who spends greater time with fish than a fisherman.

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And they see that when they pull out the fish from the water, they see that the fish is

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struggling, but still that connection is, I guess, absent from their minds.

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How do you explain that?

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That's a really good question.

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I think that it's kind of similar to hunting.

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If you talk to hunters and fishermen, they'll talk about the connection that they feel to

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the animals and the connection that they feel to nature.

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And I think that it's kind of falling into that trap that we do a lot, which is focusing

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on our human-based experiences.

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And yes, you can feel very connected to nature by interacting with a hurt animal, but you

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can also feel very connected to nature by observing that animal from a distance and

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watching them live their lives and seeing the majesty and the beauty of them being left

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alone and free in their lives and their world.

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And so I think that a lot of the context of fishing is that same thing.

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People want to connect with nature.

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They want to connect with animals and are maybe not thinking of ways that they could

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do that that don't require the suffering of another individual.

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And I want to address some of the maybe prejudices or lies we tell ourselves about fish.

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A lot of those fishermen say, you know, they practice a kind of fishing where they pull

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out the fish and then they put it back in the water and they think of it as being compassionate

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and not harming the fish.

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What do you say about that?

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I mean, at its most blunt level, I would ask them if they'd want someone to come into their

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home, dunk them underwater for two minutes and then shove them back in and call that

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compassion.

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I don't think that there's a way to frame that as a compassionate act.

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You know, compassion is not inflicting unnecessary harm on someone else.

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It's respecting someone else's autonomy in their life.

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And I think that if someone really wants to interact with fish and they're already in

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the position and have the privilege to be able to spend money to go by fishing equipment,

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maybe they should spend that money on a camera.

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Maybe they should spend that money on a GoPro that they can stick underwater and watch the

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fish and see them in their environment.

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Maybe they should learn how to scuba dive and be able to interact with fish in a peaceful,

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nonviolent and truly compassionate way.

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And so what do you think about the media around fish?

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I talked a lot about Finding Nemo, but there are so many documentaries out there which

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highlight the lives of fish.

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Is it useful or is there like a bad, negative impact to that media like Finding Nemo, which

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the whole plot of the story is about saving this fish, but then people have watched the

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movie and felt the need to go to a pet store and adopt a clownfish?

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This was not planned, I think, by people who made the movie or thought about its effects

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on the viewers.

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So what do you think about the whole media ecosystem around fish?

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I think it's a little hard to say in one answer because there are so many different types

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of media.

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I think a lot of the documentaries are generally beneficial.

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I think it's very sad to see in many documentaries that our impacts on fish and their environments

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are prioritized as an environmental issue.

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I would never in a million years say that the environment and our impact on the environment

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isn't huge, but I think that there's also room in that conversation to talk about our

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impacts on individuals and the fish who live there.

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But for a movie like Finding Nemo, I think it's really fascinating because, like you

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said, the movie is entirely based around this story of a fish who was like unwillingly separated

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from his family who was pulled forcibly from his home.

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And I will say I love Finding Nemo.

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I love that movie.

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I'm a huge Pixar person.

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I love animated movies and I love Finding Nemo.

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And I think it's so interesting and kind of typical that we watch a movie like Finding

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Nemo where the dentist very early on, he says, oh, I found this little guy struggling for

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life out in the reef.

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And all of us as the viewers were like, no, you didn't.

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You did not.

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You weren't struggling for life.

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He was doing great.

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He had his family.

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He had his friends.

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He was fine.

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And you pulled him out of his home and that's wrong.

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And I think it's unfortunate that we can watch a movie like that and recognize that and then

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still feel the desire to go to the pet store and buy a fish who was also pulled out of

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their home away from their family and away from everything they've ever known so that

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we can keep them in an aquarium in our house.

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You know, most saltwater fish that you could buy in a store today were wild caught.

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Not necessarily in the way that Nemo was.

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It's more of like an industrial capture kind of scale.

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It's not wouldn't typically be just an individual diver.

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It's more people do dive in and they'll catch the fish individually but on a massive scale.

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And you know, then freshwater fish are captive bred, but they go through their own whole

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horrible start to life of transport and difficult things.

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And I think that a movie like Finding Nemo gives us the opportunity to recognize that

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our treatment of these animals is wrong.

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And I think it's unfortunate that many of us watch it and take away the kind of human

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focused message of, oh, but isn't it fun to have a fish in an aquarium?

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I want to talk about the pet stores.

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But first, let's go back to what you said about climate change.

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Because that is also something I have noticed.

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How the highlight is, you know, we often hear environmental conservation or conservation

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of fish population.

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And it is always said with like the idea that we want to continue fishing those populations,

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but in a responsible way and in a sustainable way.

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There are a lot of those buzzwords used in order to justify human exploitation of animals.

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And I never heard anyone in those documentaries or public commentators talk about the suffering

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it causes on the fish population.

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And it's such a, when you think about the scale, the number of those fish populations

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just getting annihilated by human exploitation, it's crazy.

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It's maddening.

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So can you comment on that?

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Yeah, it is maddening.

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That's a good way to describe it.

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I think that one of the areas that the animal rights and vegan movement is really lacking

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is in our conversations around fish.

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We all know the numbers around terrestrial farmed animals, that billions are killed every

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year.

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And what we don't talk about in that context is that there are trillions of fish killed

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every year.

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That's completely incomprehensible numbers of fish who are killed.

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And I think it's overwhelming and it is hard to take those trillions and turn it into an

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individual conversation, especially when, as we talked about earlier, people already struggle

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to connect to fish.

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So I think a lot of times it's maybe a little bit easier to get non-vegans and people who

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are outside of the animal rights world to connect to the environmental issues.

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Because you say things like, oh, we're going to have fishless oceans by 2048.

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And people go, wow, that sounds terrifying because what are we going to eat?

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And we talk about sustainable fishing and all these things, like you said.

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And I think a lot of those are just frankly buzzwords and things like you said to help

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us feel better about the atrocity that is ongoing in our treatment of fish and the environment

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as a result.

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There's not a kind way to fish and there is not a compassionate way to do any kind of

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the farming that we do.

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And so I think maybe because we struggle to connect to fish, it's a little bit easier

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to pull in that environmental conversation and get people to connect on that level.

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But I think that really is an area that we're kind of failing to fish specifically, that

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we need to talk about them more.

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Yes.

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And we often, everyone I think who is listening to this podcast has seen pictures of birds

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struggling with a piece of plastic around their neck or plastic that they tried to eat

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and it's stuck.

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But I think about it as if the birds are marine birds who fish for surviving are struggling

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with human presence to this extent.

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What is happening under the sea with smaller fish and smaller aquatic life?

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Yeah, it's hidden but it doesn't make it less valid of a cause or the pain is still

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there.

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It's just hidden.

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That's the thing.

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Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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I mean, like you said, we've all seen the videos like the birds or the sharks or the

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seals or even the fish who are caught even like in nets underwater and divers cutting

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them free and things.

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And if you look at some of the reactions to those videos, it's always people saying, wow,

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it's so amazing that you rescued that shark or whatever.

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And there's no acknowledgement of the fact that that shark needed to be rescued because

233
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:46,020
we eat fish and they were trapped in fishing equipment because most of the plastic in the

234
00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:48,640
ocean is discarded fishing equipment.

235
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:53,040
And so if we weren't fishing, the amount of plastic that we need to remove from the

236
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:58,680
ocean and the just environmental catastrophe that is happening because of that would be

237
00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:59,680
such a smaller scale.

238
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,680
It would still be a problem, of course.

239
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,160
But fishing is such a disaster for that.

240
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:15,640
I am so happy to hear you say that because I hear friends and people debating plastic

241
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,440
straws and their impact on the ocean.

242
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:25,040
Meanwhile, it's fishing that is causing all of that plastic in the water.

243
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,160
Yeah, I think I've seen it before.

244
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,680
There is, I don't know, something I've seen online that it basically said like you'll

245
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:37,320
stop using plastic straws to save fish, but you won't stop eating fish to save fish.

246
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:43,180
And I think that's, you know, there's no better summary of it than that because that really

247
00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:44,880
is the leading cause.

248
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,520
Truly.

249
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,400
And what about the mercury?

250
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:58,000
I have mentioned a few times in this podcast how in the Mediterranean diet, if you eat

251
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:05,200
fish, it's considered healthy, but there is the mercury inside the fish.

252
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:11,800
So it's bad for your health, but it's also bad for the health of the fish.

253
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:20,560
For starter, I mean, and I guess they're suffering from all of those chemicals we dump in the

254
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:21,560
water.

255
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:30,360
Do we have any data or anything about how fish is suffering from aquatic life in general

256
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:36,960
is suffering from, I don't know, like chemical burns or things like that?

257
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:38,400
I would assume that there must be.

258
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,840
I honestly don't know.

259
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:42,480
I assume that there is.

260
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:48,360
I think though that like something we maybe don't take into account a lot when we think

261
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:55,640
about fish and pollution and kind of water is the way that fish interact with their environment.

262
00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:01,240
You know, we all have had the experience of breathing in smoke and how unpleasant that

263
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,240
is.

264
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:08,440
You know, I have lived in an area affected by wildfires for a long time and the smoke

265
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,600
from the wildfires is very intense sometimes.

266
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:16,440
Or if you don't live near that area, you're lucky, but maybe you've experienced trying

267
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,040
to start a campfire and getting the face full of smoke and just your eyes burning and your

268
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,260
nose burning and your lungs burning.

269
00:20:23,260 --> 00:20:30,680
For a fish, if they're living in water that's polluted, it's not just their eyes and their

270
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:36,040
gills because their entire body is surrounded by it in a way that we just kind of don't

271
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,680
experience as much with air.

272
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,000
We can stick our hand in smoke and we're not going to, as far as I know, we're not going

273
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,320
to really feel like a smoke burn.

274
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,440
But for fish, if they're living, I see most frequently with rescued fish, things like

275
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,560
ammonia burns.

276
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:56,520
You'll see this too in intensively farmed animals like chickens will have ammonia burns

277
00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:02,920
and things on their bodies because of living in an area of such concentrated pollution.

278
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:09,680
And so when fish are living in that, it's burning their skin, it's getting pulled into

279
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,760
their bodies and into their lungs and things.

280
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,240
We know that mercury is an issue.

281
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,200
We know that microplastics are an issue.

282
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:23,760
There's all kinds of things that we have put into the ocean that fish are now having to

283
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,280
take into their bodies and they don't have an escape from it.

284
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:32,320
And so then of course, when we eat the fish, we're taking in anything that they have inside

285
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,520
of their bodies too.

286
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,720
It's a great analogy.

287
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:37,720
Like a wildfire.

288
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,040
Yeah, I love that analogy.

289
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:50,880
So I want to get back to the pet stores because I feel like this is what the interaction people

290
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,120
have with live fish is true.

291
00:21:53,120 --> 00:22:01,040
A pet store usually, that's the most common interaction they have.

292
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:10,760
And pet stores are kind of weird in a way because here you are in your hometown in the

293
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:19,280
middle of North America and there's this place which has in captivity some creatures from

294
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:30,080
all over the world, including fish from oceans at kilometers away, worlds away from where

295
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,720
you are.

296
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,240
So where do they find the fish?

297
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,560
How is the fish brought to the pet store?

298
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:41,840
And why is it allowed?

299
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,200
How is this legal?

300
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,180
All good questions.

301
00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:52,380
So for where the fish come from, it's really going to vary.

302
00:22:52,380 --> 00:22:58,760
And I think to kind of get into that, we should back up just half a step and say that fish

303
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,040
are the most numerous pet animal.

304
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,840
And so for all the dogs and the cats that we see through our days interacting with people

305
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,200
that they can take their dog out with them or you see a cat outside or something like

306
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,100
that, there are so many more fish.

307
00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:18,640
And they're all kept in these little tanks either in our homes or in pet stores.

308
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,120
And so I think it's great that you're asking this because a lot of people don't think of

309
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:23,880
like, well, how did they even get here?

310
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,760
I mean, a dog, we can all understand stray dogs, but you don't encounter like a stray

311
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,440
fish that you take home and have as like, oh, I found this stray fish and now they're

312
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:34,440
my friend.

313
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:35,440
That doesn't happen.

314
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,980
It should because people dump fish, but that's a whole other problem.

315
00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:46,080
But the fish from the pet stores, it really comes down to either wild capture or captive

316
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,160
bred.

317
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:53,340
So the majority of saltwater fish, about 90% of saltwater fish are wild caught, which means

318
00:23:53,340 --> 00:24:04,320
that they're captured from places like Hawaii, the Philippines, all the areas that have beautiful

319
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,660
saltwater reefs.

320
00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:08,840
There's probably some level of captive fishing going on.

321
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,180
A lot of it is in kind of the Southeast Asia area from my understanding.

322
00:24:12,180 --> 00:24:15,760
It's been a minute since I looked at all these statistics.

323
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,000
So these fish are wild caught.

324
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,920
There's a few different methods, a semi-common one or a very common one actually is called

325
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,360
cyanide fishing.

326
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:31,760
That's technically illegal in most places, but there are ways you can test to see if

327
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,880
a fish was captured using cyanide fishing.

328
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,240
And there have been studies that have shown that a substantial number of the fish in the

329
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,760
aquarium trade were captured using cyanide fishing.

330
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:47,320
So what this means is that a diver goes into a reef with usually like basically a squeeze

331
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:54,280
bottle of a cyanide poison that they'll use to spray onto the fish in the reef.

332
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:59,960
It'll stun the fish, basically kind of paralyze them, and then they'll collect all the fish.

333
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:07,720
As you can imagine, a massive number of these fish die as a result of cyanide toxicity.

334
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:08,860
It's incredibly toxic.

335
00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:12,920
It's incredibly dangerous for the fish and for the diver, and it's hugely destructive

336
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,920
to the reef.

337
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:20,920
Coral is a living organism that is also impacted by cyanide toxicity, and the coral can't swim

338
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,000
away.

339
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,440
And so it's hugely destructive to the reefs.

340
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,160
It's hugely destructive to the fish.

341
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:34,280
And I think it's something like 90% of captured saltwater fish will die within their first

342
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:35,960
year.

343
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:41,360
A huge amount of that is because of the stress of capture and transport.

344
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:46,400
So most saltwater fish come from those kinds of scenarios.

345
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,480
There is a smaller portion.

346
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:53,080
I think there's been some success with breeding like clownfish in particular in captivity

347
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,800
to kind of reduce that, but that comes with its own problems.

348
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:03,280
Then the flip side of that is that most freshwater fish are bred in captivity.

349
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,960
So this is like your goldfish, your bettas, your tetras, your Corydoras, just the whole,

350
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,320
most of the fish that you see in the pet store will have been captive bred.

351
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:21,280
And in those cases, it's essentially factory farming.

352
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:27,400
It's very reminiscent of what people call puppy mills.

353
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,080
And if anything, it's worse because there's no legal regulation.

354
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,520
There's no protection for fish.

355
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:40,240
A lot of these fish are bred in tropical areas like Thailand and then would be imported to

356
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:41,240
other countries.

357
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,880
The United States is the largest importer of fish.

358
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,880
We have the largest number of pet fish.

359
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,960
And there are some breeding facilities here.

360
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,800
I believe a lot of goldfish are bred somewhere in the south.

361
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,160
So it really just kind of depends on the species.

362
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,880
But for captive breeding, it's very similar.

363
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:08,520
You get a lot of loss, call it loss, as if that's a thing to write off in transport or

364
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,720
at the facilities themselves and then of course more at the stores.

365
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:23,000
And so it's really just this kind of mass production of fish for sale in pet stores.

366
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:30,200
And as with any kind of mass production of anything, there's these losses that are accepted

367
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,200
on some level.

368
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,680
But in this case, it's not that, oh, you had some amount of scrap for your manufacturing

369
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:36,680
process.

370
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,920
It's that some number of individuals died because of this process and because of the

371
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,960
drive for profits.

372
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,640
Yeah, I think I'm sorry.

373
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,840
You had another question and I kind of forgot what it was.

374
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,040
I don't remember.

375
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:57,440
I think I asked about pet stores.

376
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,160
How is it, it is weird to have those strange species in the middle of North America.

377
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,120
It's so weird.

378
00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:06,120
It's so weird.

379
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:13,440
I think another thing that people don't really recognize with fish is that there's over 33,000

380
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,840
known species of fish.

381
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,920
And so that's more than 60% of the known vertebrate species on earth.

382
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,160
It's a massive number of species.

383
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:28,400
And of course, not nearly that many numbers, thank goodness, are kept in captivity or sold

384
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:29,400
as pets.

385
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:36,500
But, you know, if you go into a pet store, you'll see hamsters, rats, mice, a few species

386
00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:38,040
of birds and things like that.

387
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,120
And then you might see two or three dozen different species of fish.

388
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:47,200
And every one of those species is just as different from each other as a parrot is to

389
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,760
a chicken.

390
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,040
They all have different needs.

391
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,740
They have different kind of social structures that they'll build.

392
00:28:54,740 --> 00:28:58,000
They have different ways that they interact with each other.

393
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:03,160
And pet stores will not make that clear to people.

394
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,160
I never thought about it this way.

395
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,880
But you're right.

396
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:08,880
It's incredible.

397
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,140
Okay, I have a weird follow up question.

398
00:29:12,140 --> 00:29:23,920
Why have we selected those species of fish, like goldfish or betta, instead of local fish

399
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:32,680
that we can find in lakes and rivers of the US or North America or Europe?

400
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,000
That's a very good question.

401
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,840
I don't like I've never read anything about it.

402
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:44,320
My guess would be because of the appearance and the breeding of some of these fish.

403
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,180
So you know, like the betta fish that you see, every single betta you see in a store

404
00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:55,920
will have been bred in captivity because they look nothing like their wild ancestors.

405
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,440
Bettas in particular were actually domesticated for fighting because they're a particularly

406
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,240
aggressive species of fish.

407
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,920
And so now they've been selectively bred for generations upon generations to have those

408
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:15,360
fabulous brightly colored gorgeous fins that everybody loves, but that can hinder their

409
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,400
quality of life.

410
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,360
And so I think that's a big part of it is the appearance of them, you know, compared

411
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:28,080
to if you go to like a, I don't know, a local pond or something that has native tiny minnows

412
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,080
in it.

413
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,560
The native minnows might be a little bit less pretty.

414
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,960
But honestly, I think that part of it is just that those are the species that have always

415
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,600
been kind of domesticated and bought and sold.

416
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,820
And I don't fully know the history.

417
00:30:44,820 --> 00:30:47,800
It's something I should definitely read up on because now I'm really curious about it.

418
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,280
I guess I've never thought about it a whole lot because that is a really good question.

419
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:57,400
Like why, why do I have a room full of rescued tropical fish in Nevada?

420
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:02,360
Like there is no reason for any of those fish to be here.

421
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,200
You know, none of the fish who live in our house would survive for more than a minute

422
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,440
or two in our ecosystems here.

423
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:16,640
And all of the fish who live in our ponds and things would just wreak havoc on the ecosystem

424
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,480
because they're also not native and they could survive and do well in the cold water, but

425
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:26,460
they're not a native species and they would unintentionally destroy the ecosystem.

426
00:31:26,460 --> 00:31:30,920
So yeah, it's very bizarre.

427
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:31,920
That's the thing.

428
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:37,920
I hope someone wrote about it, but it might be the case that nobody wrote about this issue

429
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:43,080
because it's not in interest of most people, most animal rights activists.

430
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:49,080
So what about the general public?

431
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,960
You mentioned how bitter was bread for fighting.

432
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,680
What is fish fighting?

433
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:07,000
I would say, you know, kind of like any other animal fighting for show, for entertainment.

434
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,560
You know, my understanding is basically it would just be putting two generally male bettas

435
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,800
into the same tank and watching them attack each other.

436
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,820
I think it's the same thing that people are drawn to with things like cock fighting and

437
00:32:18,820 --> 00:32:27,920
dog fighting of just an awful display that I don't understand why people are drawn to

438
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:28,920
it.

439
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:35,280
You know, I think it's not, I wouldn't say it's particularly common, but I don't know

440
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,580
a whole lot about kind of the state of fish fighting right now.

441
00:32:39,580 --> 00:32:45,680
My only experience with anything even slightly close to it, which is unfortunately very common,

442
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,000
is people who are completely uneducated, they go to a pet store, they buy two bettas and

443
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,760
they think they can live together.

444
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:59,280
And then they just beat each other up really bad.

445
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,440
You know, and it's not the fish doing anything wrong.

446
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,000
It's them acting according to their nature.

447
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,840
But yeah, it's really, really sad.

448
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:14,560
We've had a few bettas who have been kept with others and they are always just, you

449
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:15,760
know, their fins are shredded.

450
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,440
They're so stressed.

451
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,480
They might have wounds on their bodies and things.

452
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,840
And it's just, it's awful.

453
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:30,320
And I also want to talk about goldfish because it's the most popular species of fish that

454
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:35,120
is kept in captivity.

455
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,440
First of all, is it true that goldfish has no memory?

456
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,360
No, not at all.

457
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,800
Because that's the thing they are known for.

458
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,440
It's such a common myth.

459
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:47,440
Yeah.

460
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,760
People will say the three second memory.

461
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,280
Goldfish can remember things for years.

462
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:58,480
They form incredibly strong family bonds and relationships.

463
00:33:58,480 --> 00:33:59,880
They remember individuals.

464
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,640
They remember, you know, their favorite places.

465
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,800
Just like other species of fish, they'll remember if they've experienced pain.

466
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,800
Yeah, they're incredibly intelligent.

467
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:17,960
They're, I think, as far as like myths and general perceptions go, if you're looking

468
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:28,240
at pet species, goldfish have received by far the worst disservice from humans because

469
00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:31,440
there's all these myths about them that they have a three second memory, that they'll only

470
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,280
live for a few months, that they're stupid, that they're boring, that they're any of these

471
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,880
things that they grow to the size of the tank they're kept in.

472
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:42,840
I mean, I could just ramble off all these myths.

473
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,960
And it's all wrong.

474
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:52,280
And it's heartbreaking because goldfish, they're personally my favorite species of fish.

475
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,320
They're hilarious.

476
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,600
And they are just incredible.

477
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:04,800
Like I said, they form these really, really, really strong family and kind of friendship

478
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:12,440
bonds to the point that our organization now, we basically have a policy that we will not

479
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:19,200
keep a single pair of goldfish outside of very extenuating circumstances because when

480
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:25,280
one inevitably passes before the other, the loss is just way too much for the remaining

481
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,240
fish.

482
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,160
We had a pair, Lucas and Wednesday.

483
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,520
Lucas, we still have.

484
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:38,080
Wednesday had neurological and other physical health issues from the treatment she'd received

485
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,760
before us.

486
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,920
And her original partner, Pugsley, passed away.

487
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,000
And Lucas had just arrived.

488
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,360
We finished out his quarantine and he moved in with Lucas, with Wednesday, to be a companion

489
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,600
to her.

490
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,860
And Wednesday passed away about a year ago.

491
00:35:56,860 --> 00:36:00,280
And I genuinely thought Lucas was going to die too.

492
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,240
It was the most heartbreaking thing I've ever seen.

493
00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:05,680
He was laying at the bottom of the tank.

494
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,280
He would not eat.

495
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:14,840
He was just lethargic and completely uninterested in anything for well over a week.

496
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,720
And I was freaking out because I'd never seen something like that so intense before.

497
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:25,400
And I was like, oh my gosh, like Wednesday passed away of expected things.

498
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,280
And I had some, I was suddenly worried, like, is Lucas so sick or something?

499
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:30,800
Did something happen?

500
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,800
And our vet came out and she said, no, he's doing fine.

501
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,280
It was the loss of his companion.

502
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:43,800
And so, you know, that I think is something that people don't recognize with fish and

503
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,120
with goldfish, but all fish really is the bonds and the relationships that they can

504
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:49,840
make.

505
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:55,760
So Lucas now lives with all of our other fancy goldfish and they have, you know, their whole

506
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,760
little family there together and they have a solid group and that's kind of always our

507
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,840
goal is because they're just so social and they form those bonds.

508
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,680
It's so important to keep them together.

509
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,720
What you just described, I never heard before.

510
00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:18,200
I've heard about all the false ideas that we propagate on goldfish.

511
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:25,200
And I'm just astonished by the disparity between that public image of goldfish and

512
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:30,720
the reality of who they are.

513
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:34,760
I always am too.

514
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:40,360
It's like simultaneously, you know, very frustrating and heartbreaking because I see those public

515
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,100
perceptions all the time.

516
00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:47,880
And then also a privilege to get to witness those relationships and the family bonds that

517
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,340
they have.

518
00:37:50,340 --> 00:37:58,680
You know, watching Wednesday and Lucas's relationship and seeing the comfort that he provided to

519
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,560
her at the end of her life is just like something that I will always cherish.

520
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:10,280
Because, you know, even before she passed, she was slowing down, she wasn't doing well

521
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,440
and in her last week she wasn't really eating and she was kind of hanging out at the bottom

522
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,960
of the tank and Lucas wouldn't leave her side.

523
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,080
And so seeing them in there together, knowing Wednesday's background and knowing that she

524
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,360
was at the end of her life and watching the comfort that he gave to her was just incredible

525
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,960
to see.

526
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:36,440
And I think it's tragic that most people don't know that that exists or don't see it with

527
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,760
fish and with all animals and the relationships that they form.

528
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:46,920
I use the term anthropomorphized to describe a bit of how the characters in Finding Nemo

529
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:47,920
are built.

530
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:57,360
But I have kind of a complicated understanding of that word because we often use it to mean,

531
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:04,600
oh, those feelings of grief and of complicated, complex emotions that we display as humans,

532
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,360
they are our feelings and the rest of the animal kingdom don't share those feelings

533
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:10,360
with us.

534
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:16,040
They're not capable of that emotional depth.

535
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:26,480
And we use, oh, you're anthropomorphizing animals in a way of saying this is the domain

536
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:27,520
of humans.

537
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:38,120
These emotions like the grief you mentioned is the domain that it's proper to humans

538
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,040
and not to animals.

539
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:52,000
Yeah, so when you tell stories like these, I think it destroys that view, that belief,

540
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,160
which is so well rooted in our minds.

541
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,640
Yeah, I think that's a really, really good way to describe it.

542
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,360
And I haven't really thought of it from that perspective before, but you're completely

543
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:06,360
right.

544
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:13,560
We use this explanation of, oh, you're anthropomorphizing to just dismiss the experiences of animals

545
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,840
and say that that is a uniquely human experience when it's not.

546
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:24,120
And I think that's part of what lets us as a species treat other animals the way that

547
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:33,080
we do and why these myths around fish in particular, but around all animals are still so pervasive.

548
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:40,600
Because I think that if instead of saying that, oh, the grief that Nemo's father experienced

549
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,360
is just anthropomorphization, and is that a word?

550
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,400
Yes, I think so.

551
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:47,400
Okay.

552
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:53,640
If instead of dismissing it that way, we actually had to sit with the experiences like what

553
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:58,080
I saw with Wednesday and Lucas and say, no, this is real grief and this is loss and this

554
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,720
is an experience that is shared across species.

555
00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:08,160
I think it would make it much harder for humans to treat other animals the way that we do.

556
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:16,120
And I would dare to go as far as to say that sometimes when we witness those behaviors

557
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,760
and experiences, we can learn from them.

558
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:26,000
What's so shocking about learning from animals, learning love, learning how to go through

559
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:31,440
grief or being inspired by other animals.

560
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,440
But for the general public, it's like blasphemy.

561
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,440
Don't say it.

562
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,880
Yeah, I mean, that's such a good point.

563
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:45,320
It was so powerful for me to witness Lucas staying by Wednesday at the end of her life.

564
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:51,240
And I've always believed that that's important.

565
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:56,200
If your companion or a family member or someone is at the end of their life, I think it's

566
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,520
so critical that we be there with them and go through that process and that experience

567
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:01,520
with them.

568
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:07,560
And I think that we often want to run from a lot of those feelings and those experiences.

569
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,240
And I think that we really can learn a lot from animals and the relationships that they

570
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:17,400
have with each other and the respect that they show to each other in those situations.

571
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,480
I want to quickly go back to the pet store story.

572
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:28,120
I truly want to make a good job at covering that industry.

573
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:36,880
So they are captured or bred in foreign countries and then brought to the US or to Europe or

574
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,880
wherever the demand is.

575
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,520
How are they brought to another continent?

576
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:52,400
What are the means of transportation and what is it like from their point of view?

577
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,920
So of course I am in the US, so I have the most experience with that.

578
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,560
I know that there are some countries that actually do have some protections in place

579
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:01,560
for fish.

580
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,980
The United States is not one of them.

581
00:43:04,980 --> 00:43:09,040
So again, it will vary by species how transport happens.

582
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:17,960
So fish like goldfish and the other community species who can live in groups are often transported

583
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:23,920
in just plastic bags, usually in some kind of styrofoam cooler.

584
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,960
They'll just come in this big cooler and they're in a bag and there's, I don't know, the bag

585
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,360
is maybe a third to half full with water and the rest is air.

586
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:37,560
And then they are acclimated to the pet store tanks from those bags.

587
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:44,200
Bettas are unique because they have to be separated and so they are, rather than a single

588
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,880
large bag, they're transported in tons of tiny individual bags, which will mean that

589
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:57,400
you'll have a fish in, like, it's such a small amount of water.

590
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:02,240
I mean, maybe three to four tablespoons of water.

591
00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:05,080
I don't know how many milliliters that is, I'm sorry.

592
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,080
Like a very small amount of water.

593
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,040
Like if you've seen the cups that they're in on pet store shelves, they're transported

594
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,800
in less water than that.

595
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:21,240
And you know, it is incredibly stressful for any of these fish.

596
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:26,360
Transport is really, really hard on fish and it's really hard on any animals, but I think

597
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,000
for fish in particular because their entire environment is going to be sloshing around

598
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,160
and splashing.

599
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,840
For a fish kept in a bag with other fish, they're banging into each other.

600
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:42,360
There might be stress-based aggression because, of course, the space is far too small.

601
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,600
The water quality is getting steadily worse.

602
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:49,560
They may be getting low on oxygen, depending on how long they've been in the bag.

603
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,160
It's just very, very, very stressful.

604
00:44:53,160 --> 00:45:01,640
Fish in the bag will die and now they're there and their bodies, you know, it's just terrible.

605
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:08,600
It's so stressful for fish to be transported in that way.

606
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:15,640
And you know, whether a fish is moving two miles down the road or coming from Thailand

607
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:20,440
to Nevada, transport is always stressful.

608
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:26,720
There are ways to minimize the stress and my understanding, I could, you know, I'm not

609
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:30,540
positive but my understanding is that some companies will put certain kind of chemicals

610
00:45:30,540 --> 00:45:35,840
into the water to try to help like keep the fish a bit calmer and things like that.

611
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:43,080
But it's just generally horrendously stressful.

612
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,480
And yeah, it's awful.

613
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:52,600
Tons of fish will die in transport and it's really, really heartbreaking.

614
00:45:52,600 --> 00:46:02,800
Well, this whole industry and economic activity is awful the way you describe it and the details

615
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,240
are just gut-wrenching.

616
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:09,700
But it is not a tragic situation.

617
00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:11,480
We can do something about it.

618
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,480
We can change things for the better.

619
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:19,800
And you have made that choice by opening Friends of Philip.

620
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:26,280
So let me start by asking you, who is Philip?

621
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,720
So Philip was our first rescue.

622
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:38,480
He did pass away just this year, but he had been with us for almost four years, which

623
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:44,400
a typical Betta lifespan, it varies dramatically, but two to five-ish years, some have been

624
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,960
known to live up to eight, a lot live for less than a year, you know, it really kind

625
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:49,960
of varies.

626
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:55,860
So he was quite elderly, geriatric is what our vet always called him.

627
00:46:55,860 --> 00:47:04,980
So Philip was our first rescue, he was a Betta, and it was basically the first of what has

628
00:47:04,980 --> 00:47:13,320
become a very often repeated story for us where I saw him on a pet store shelf.

629
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:18,280
It was the classic situation of being in one of those little cups of water.

630
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,160
He looked just terrible.

631
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:25,560
You know, I was pretty new to fish at the time, but even having not seen very many sick

632
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,920
fish, it was so apparent that he was in horrible shape.

633
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:36,560
I look back at the photos of him now and I'm honestly surprised that he survived.

634
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:44,720
But his fins were rotted away, he was incredibly thin, he was very, very pale, just, you know,

635
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,880
to almost anyone looking at him, it should have been apparent that he was going to die

636
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,400
if he stayed there.

637
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:58,080
So I asked the manager at the pet store if I could adopt him, and they said yes, so they

638
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,520
let me take him home for free.

639
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:08,320
And so I had a fish, but I didn't have any of the equipment for the fish, which is not

640
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,480
the thing I would recommend doing.

641
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:16,800
What I did have was a very thorough understanding of the nitrogen cycle and a process called

642
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:22,240
the fish-in cycle, and of all of the things that I needed to keep a betta healthy and

643
00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:24,560
safe.

644
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,480
And so with that, I just needed the tank, so I ran to another store, I got the tank,

645
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:33,000
I got all the equipment, and kind of got him home and situated, and then panicked about

646
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,860
it for several weeks while I was doing the cycle process and going through all these

647
00:48:37,860 --> 00:48:40,680
things for the first time.

648
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:47,880
But he recovered, and he did very, very well for a really long time.

649
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:55,480
And seeing that process and facilitating that process is what kind of motivated me to keep

650
00:48:55,480 --> 00:49:02,720
doing it and to get more involved in fish rescue and advocacy.

651
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:09,380
Let me say that I think it's beautiful how you had that instinct, that instant compassion

652
00:49:09,380 --> 00:49:18,200
for Philip and decided to adopt him in a spur of the moment situation, because we often

653
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:25,320
have this instinct for doing good, for giving, for being compassionate, but then we stop

654
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:31,680
ourselves and we don't express our inspiration to do good.

655
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:41,000
So I'm so happy to hear that this was a true moment of instinct and inspiration that you

656
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,360
had for him.

657
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:50,020
So okay, you adopt Philip, he's in your home.

658
00:49:50,020 --> 00:49:57,120
How do you go from there to let's adopt more fish and let's create an animal sanctuary?

659
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,400
That's a good question.

660
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:06,640
I think I'd been vegan for a little bit.

661
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:12,600
I'd been volunteering at a really amazing farmed animal sanctuary for a bit by that

662
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,000
point too.

663
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:22,040
And I think there was just always that part of me that was like, well, of course I'm going

664
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,520
to eventually be rescuing animals.

665
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,680
That's the only natural progression for my life.

666
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,920
And so I think that was a decent part of it.

667
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:42,360
And really it was that I was not in a position where I thought that I had the resources or

668
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:48,000
really like the space to be able to rescue terrestrial farmed animals.

669
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:53,880
And looking back on that, I'm kind of sad that that's the reason that fish became the

670
00:50:53,880 --> 00:51:01,680
focus because I wish that I had just known that fish needed so much more help.

671
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,520
And I wish I had just known that, but I didn't.

672
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:09,340
But it was really bringing Philip home and connecting with him and starting to learn

673
00:51:09,340 --> 00:51:16,140
more and more about our treatment of fish and our interactions with fish that kind of

674
00:51:16,140 --> 00:51:21,880
drove me towards aquatic animals and fish specifically.

675
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:29,000
Because I think to that point, I had been a, I would say, a pretty typical vegan that

676
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,440
I cared so strongly about terrestrial animals.

677
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,960
And I of course didn't eat fish and I thought fishing was terrible.

678
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:41,160
And I knew on the very broad level how bad some of these things were.

679
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:46,480
But I think just like many of us, I'd never had that moment of understanding and connection

680
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:53,680
with a fish and recognizing just how incredible they are.

681
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,360
And so getting that connection with Philip really facilitated that.

682
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:01,080
And it sort of became, it was just this moment of like, wow, this is something that I could

683
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:07,280
actually do is that I have the space, I have the resources, I have the time.

684
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:15,300
I was very successful with our first rescue and I thought I could do it again.

685
00:52:15,300 --> 00:52:23,040
So a couple months, I want to say, I brought Philip home in July and I think in October

686
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:28,120
or November, our next two rescues came home and that was Frankie and Ozai who were two

687
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:33,560
bettas that had been kept together in a really just awful situation.

688
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:40,160
And I got to see them recover and them flourish and do very, very well.

689
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:45,760
And it just kind of continued to build steadily from there.

690
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:52,000
I never wanted to let things get crazy of suddenly going from zero tanks to 50 overnight

691
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:53,920
and getting it over my head or something.

692
00:52:53,920 --> 00:53:04,760
But a bit over a year after Philip came home, I decided to actually make it into an organization.

693
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:09,280
And I was bouncing around of should it be like a pet fish rescue?

694
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:10,880
Should it be a small animal rescue?

695
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,840
What kind of organization should this really be?

696
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:21,800
And ultimately settled on a fish sanctuary because I think that farmed animal sanctuaries

697
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:27,640
are so valuable and I can see what they do to let people connect to farmed animals.

698
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:31,000
And I know that fish need that too.

699
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:38,580
How many residents are right now in your care?

700
00:53:38,580 --> 00:53:39,580
Right around 100.

701
00:53:39,580 --> 00:53:40,580
Wow.

702
00:53:40,580 --> 00:53:44,480
Yeah, of just over 25 species.

703
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:50,080
And where did they come from?

704
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:51,960
So it varies a bit.

705
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,400
Most of our bettas came from pet stores in the same way that Philip did.

706
00:53:55,400 --> 00:54:00,900
We of course would never buy a fish, but we do take in pet store surrenders.

707
00:54:00,900 --> 00:54:06,320
So most of our bettas came from that situation.

708
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:16,480
All of our community species, so like the tetras, the danios, the Corydoras, the cute

709
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:22,860
little tropical dudes, those were all caregiver surrenders.

710
00:54:22,860 --> 00:54:27,360
And then our goldfish were also caregiver surrenders.

711
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,280
Oh, there's a train driving past my house.

712
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:31,280
I hope you can't hear it.

713
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:32,280
Oh, it's okay.

714
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,280
I mean, it adds to the ambiance.

715
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:36,280
Okay.

716
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,960
Yeah, I can go on mute.

717
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,640
There's an intersection right over there.

718
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:44,680
Sorry.

719
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:52,220
But yeah, so the goldfish and the cold water species were also caregiver surrenders.

720
00:54:52,220 --> 00:54:57,040
And then we have two geckos who were caregiver surrenders and we have three hens who were

721
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:58,040
as well.

722
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,920
But of course, mostly fish.

723
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:07,360
And what does it take to care for all of them?

724
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:14,160
First of all, how many tanks do you have for all of those fishes?

725
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,040
It's a little embarrassing because I never know off the top of my head and I always have

726
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:21,960
to count even though it's always the same number.

727
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,800
But well, actually it has changed recently.

728
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:29,000
We've said goodbye to some of our older betta residents recently.

729
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:34,120
So I've kind of decreased the number of small tanks that we have.

730
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:43,020
But we currently have, oh dear, sorry, 20 tanks.

731
00:55:43,020 --> 00:55:45,840
And that includes two, I call them like stock tank ponds.

732
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:50,840
So you know, like the big plastic kind of look in stock tanks that are often used for

733
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,000
farmed animals to just drink water out of.

734
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:58,240
We have two of those in our garage for goldfish and cold water species.

735
00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:04,000
And the other tanks are your kind of classic glass aquarium that have our tropical species

736
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:05,820
in them.

737
00:56:05,820 --> 00:56:11,200
We have one additional stock tank outside and then we just finished our larger in-ground

738
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,200
pond.

739
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,640
So I don't think that quite counts as a tank though.

740
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,360
Well, that's amazing.

741
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:19,360
A pond.

742
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:20,920
There's a lot.

743
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:21,920
How big is it?

744
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:23,600
How big is it, Paul?

745
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,600
It is 3,300 gallons.

746
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:32,760
So it's about six feet, it's just over six feet deep at its deepest point.

747
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,800
And yeah, it's pretty sizable.

748
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:37,520
It was a very big hole.

749
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:44,320
And how many hours of work does it represent to care for all of them?

750
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,000
It really varies.

751
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:50,320
So each day I spend, it's really very quick.

752
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:55,560
That's the fun thing with fish and aquariums is that there's not the kind of, you know,

753
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:59,520
daily poop scooping that you do, like we do for like the chickens.

754
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:04,400
So each day it's probably 10 minutes in the morning, 10 minutes at night to feed everybody

755
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,840
and check on everyone and make sure they're doing okay.

756
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:13,280
And then when they need water changes, it'll be several days.

757
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:19,780
You know, maybe I'll spend an evening doing six or eight water changes and I'll do that

758
00:57:19,780 --> 00:57:22,040
a few nights a week.

759
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:27,480
But it does depend a bit on when the tanks need changes and how everyone's doing and

760
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,000
all of that kind of stuff.

761
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:39,320
And the logistics of it, I mean, you had to have taken the time to think about it.

762
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:47,920
And I don't think there is a manual out there that you can read from to tell you how to

763
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,480
care about all of them.

764
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:58,080
Unfortunately, there's almost too many manuals and most of them are not very good.

765
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:04,680
So that's one of the challenges is that there isn't in for most cases a single place that

766
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:11,160
you can go and really learn about how to care properly for fish.

767
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:12,760
That is changing.

768
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:17,920
Our Aquatic Vet has an amazing website with all kinds of resources on it.

769
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:22,680
More and more sites like, have you heard of the Open Sanctuary Project?

770
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:23,680
Yes.

771
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,240
And the Micro Sanctuary Resource Center.

772
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:31,800
They're both doing more and more resources on fish, which is amazing and things like

773
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:32,800
that.

774
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:38,080
So resources are becoming available, but a lot of what I know has just been gathered

775
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:44,200
through hours upon hours of searching through things on the internet and trying to think

776
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:45,200
really critically.

777
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:50,720
Because some sites will tell you that a goldfish does great in a 20 gallon tank and that is

778
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:52,400
not true.

779
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,440
So there is just a lot of kind of critical thinking and trying to figure out, okay, how

780
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,200
much do I trust this source?

781
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:04,120
And does this just make sense to me based on my experience with fish either similar

782
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,840
to this species or the species in particular and that kind of thing?

783
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:13,840
I'm so happy that you're doing this pioneering work, but at the same time, I'm thinking we

784
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:22,040
have been keeping goldfish in captivity for decades and it's only now in 2023 that we're

785
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:26,780
gathering that kind of data on the topic.

786
00:59:26,780 --> 00:59:32,760
I thought that we were more informed on how to care for them.

787
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:39,980
I think we're informed in a lot of ways, but I think a lot of the information around fish

788
00:59:39,980 --> 00:59:47,320
keeping is honestly really similar to what you find with terrestrial animals where it's

789
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:54,720
information on how to keep them alive and healthy enough, but it's not really information

790
00:59:54,720 --> 01:00:00,520
on how to provide them with an environment where they can truly thrive.

791
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:04,920
I encounter this a lot with like our hens where we have a heater, of course, in our

792
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:08,960
coop for our chickens because it gets incredibly cold here in the winter.

793
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:13,120
But if you go onto any kind of quote unquote backyard chicken resource, they'll say, oh,

794
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:17,160
chickens can handle the cold or this is a cold hardy breed.

795
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:22,800
I think a lot of the information around fish is very similar where it's, yeah, a goldfish

796
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:31,360
can survive in a 20 gallon tank alone and they will never be happy that way.

797
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:38,480
But when our goal is to have something pretty to look at and have that thing as we see it

798
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:44,520
survive, it's not too much of a concern to the people putting together that information

799
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,080
whether the fish is actually happy.

800
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:51,760
I guess that's where the vegan factor plays a role, an important role.

801
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:57,440
That's why it's important for animal rights organizations to be led by vegans and not

802
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:05,880
just your random person who is not truly committed to the animal rights cause.

803
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:12,800
Yeah, I agree and I think you encounter that in the fish keeping world.

804
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:18,760
People call it the hobby, which I hate, but you encounter that a lot in that community

805
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:23,680
where there are plenty of people who care very strongly about their fish being healthy

806
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:26,680
and happy.

807
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:31,280
But those are some of the same people who will turn around and be getting rid of their

808
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:34,960
fish because they want to go in a different direction with their tank or something like

809
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:39,160
that.

810
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:47,720
If we truly care about these animals and want them to thrive and survive and be happy, their

811
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:49,480
well-being has to be the priority.

812
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:54,800
It can't be what we want and what we think is a good look or what we think makes sense

813
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:55,800
for them.

814
01:01:55,800 --> 01:02:02,320
It has to truly be from the perspective of, okay, is this best for the individuals?

815
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:08,760
How do you provide healthcare to your sanctuary's residents?

816
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:10,280
That's a great question.

817
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:18,200
Unfortunately, in the fish world, most people think that vet care is just not a thing, which

818
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,120
is not at all the case.

819
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:26,600
If you go to most fish stores in the United States, they'll be selling all kinds of different

820
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:28,760
medications and antibiotics and things.

821
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,440
I don't know what it's like in other countries, but I know in the United States, these are

822
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:36,720
not regulated medications and they're sold.

823
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:42,800
You can get random antibiotics that aren't regulated or tracked or things like that that

824
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,920
you then go home and are exposing yourself to and putting in your tank to treat something

825
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:52,280
that may or may not actually need that medication.

826
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:58,120
There's all kinds of misinformation online about fish healthcare and treatment.

827
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:04,040
Most people think that that's the only option, but we use an incredible aquatic veterinarian,

828
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,720
Dr. Jessie Sanders at Aquatic Veterinary Services.

829
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:12,840
She has a mobile practice that covers California and Nevada, which is incredible, but there

830
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:15,160
are aquatic vets all over the place.

831
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:21,200
They're not as common, of course, as your typical dog and cat vet, but they do exist

832
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,600
and you can find them.

833
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:29,560
For our residents, I have a small number of things that I will do personally.

834
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,360
If a new fish is coming home and needs some additional support, I might use some aquarium

835
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:36,680
salt or things like that.

836
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:41,220
For any kind of true treatment, it's all done by our veterinarian.

837
01:03:41,220 --> 01:03:43,480
We only use medications that have been prescribed.

838
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:47,600
We only treat based on her prescriptions and recommendations.

839
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:54,040
We've had a number of fish deal with things like bacterial infections that she can diagnose

840
01:03:54,040 --> 01:04:03,000
and then provide good regulated prescribed medications for.

841
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:04,480
That's just huge.

842
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,720
Fish vet care looks just like terrestrial animal care.

843
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:13,680
Our residents have received x-rays, they've gotten ultrasounds, they've gotten injections

844
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:19,300
of antibiotics, they've had antibiotics added to the water.

845
01:04:19,300 --> 01:04:25,400
We've had all kinds of treatment just like a terrestrial animal can receive.

846
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,880
I think that that's really, really valuable.

847
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:33,360
Something that maybe people don't know about is that there are aquatic vets and they're

848
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:41,080
amazing and they are so critical to providing responsible, compassionate care to fish.

849
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:49,320
I want to highlight how if you visit your Instagram account, there are some residents

850
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:58,880
that you post about who have been gravely mutilated or went through hell and you're

851
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:02,960
keeping them alive, which is quite touching.

852
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:08,640
I guess your vet is playing a key role in that process.

853
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:09,640
Absolutely.

854
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:10,640
Yeah.

855
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,360
We have a number of disabled residents, like you said.

856
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:19,400
We have fish who've come in with injuries and things.

857
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:23,780
We consult with our veterinarian on things like that in the same way that we would for

858
01:05:23,780 --> 01:05:26,120
any other species.

859
01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:32,960
It's incredibly, incredibly important to me to prioritize quality of life and an animal's

860
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:38,600
ability to live a happy, healthy life over anything else.

861
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:44,240
Our disabled residents will put some accommodations into their tanks, things that our vet has

862
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:48,040
recommended, things that I've learned online, things that we've just learned help them through

863
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:53,360
observation.

864
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:59,800
Our relationship with our vet is so integral to all of that, being able to provide the

865
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:05,280
care for our disabled residents and for our fully abled residents.

866
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:11,280
Because without her, we would be kind of in the dark on a lot of this stuff and knowing

867
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:13,160
if we're doing the right thing.

868
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:16,360
It's so, so important to have that relationship.

869
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:27,360
For the listeners who are inspired by what you're doing and who understand now how important

870
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:35,600
your work is and how you're working hard to care for them, how can they support your mission

871
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:39,280
and your sanctuary?

872
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:40,280
There are a few ways.

873
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:43,680
We're on Instagram and on Facebook.

874
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,480
Both are friends of Philip Fish Sanctuary.

875
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,080
It's a little long.

876
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:49,080
So we're on there.

877
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:54,960
You can follow us and follow along with the residents and things.

878
01:06:54,960 --> 01:07:00,480
We do have through the social media links to different ways to support us through donations

879
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:01,480
and whatnot.

880
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:10,480
Honestly, the best way to support what we're trying to do is to just talk about fish more

881
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,440
and to advocate for them when you can.

882
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:19,360
I think a lot of us encounter fish as these living decorations in people's homes and it

883
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:23,320
can be an uncomfortable conversation to say, hey, I see you have a fish in a bowl.

884
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:28,160
Have you considered getting them a tank and things like that?

885
01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:34,000
Then of course, to just not buy them and to not support the industries that are harming

886
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:39,000
them, that is always going to be the best and easiest way to support and advocate for

887
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:40,000
fish.

888
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:41,800
Well, that was my next question.

889
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:50,080
For the vegans who are listening to this podcast, what is your message to motivate them to take

890
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:58,640
action for sea life, for the fish population, against what is happening in pet stores and

891
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,040
through the fishing industry?

892
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:05,480
That's a very good question.

893
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:11,360
I think the main thing I would want to say is to not underestimate your own power and

894
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:16,560
influence in these situations.

895
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:20,480
If you're in the position and prepared to want to individually rescue a fish, that's

896
01:08:20,480 --> 01:08:26,360
amazing, but a lot of people can't do that or simply don't want to take that on and that's

897
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:28,720
fine.

898
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:37,320
I think that the worst thing we can do is nothing because if we're silent, then nothing

899
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:40,640
is ever going to change.

900
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:48,200
Having ways to advocate that align with you personally and the things that you are passionate

901
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:53,760
about and motivated to do, whether that's going to protests, whether it's sharing on

902
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:59,440
social media, whether it's individual rescue, whether it's volunteering at a sanctuary or

903
01:08:59,440 --> 01:09:04,880
things like that, I think that that can be really huge.

904
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:10,360
I would say that if you're a vegan who's already involved in animal rights and animal advocacy,

905
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:18,640
I would just say please evaluate your messaging and make sure that you're including fish.

906
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:26,000
It's so, so, so easy and so, so, so common for individual vegans and vegan organizations

907
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:29,120
to just not include fish at all.

908
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:31,400
I don't think it's ever done out of any malice.

909
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:36,320
It's just out of that same perspective that we all kind of struggle sometimes to connect

910
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:39,160
to aquatic life because we don't see them as much.

911
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:43,440
And so, if you're in the position to, I don't know, work with an organization and change

912
01:09:43,440 --> 01:09:48,480
their messaging to better include fish and aquatic life, that's huge.

913
01:09:48,480 --> 01:09:51,800
And that's exactly what these animals need.

914
01:09:51,800 --> 01:10:01,600
And of course, people will find links to your Instagram and other resources in the description

915
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,880
below.

916
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:08,160
So Gwendolyn, this was a pleasure.

917
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:14,440
I think we covered most of what I wanted to cover.

918
01:10:14,440 --> 01:10:19,720
Did you have anything more to add before we end this conversation?

919
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:26,440
Yeah, I think there's kind of one thing I always try to emphasize when I'm talking about

920
01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:31,960
fish and fish rescue in general, because I think a lot of very well-intentioned people

921
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:36,320
will hear me talk about fish rescue and get motivated to do it themselves.

922
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:39,040
And that's amazing.

923
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:46,000
And my historian, Philip, is very cute, and I rescued him in some ways on impulse.

924
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:53,480
But I had an incredibly thorough understanding of what I needed to do to keep him safe and

925
01:10:53,480 --> 01:10:56,480
keep his aquarium healthy.

926
01:10:56,480 --> 01:11:04,640
And just Googling the nitrogen cycle and researching that and making sure you understand it is

927
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,320
going to be one of the most important things you could ever do if you're interested in

928
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:09,820
fish rescue.

929
01:11:09,820 --> 01:11:14,360
And going into fish rescue or bringing a fish home without a thorough understanding of the

930
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:19,600
nitrogen cycle and how to keep them safe and how to take care of their aquarium is doing

931
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:24,680
them a huge disservice, regardless of intention.

932
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:29,520
And so I don't want to discourage anyone from rescuing fish or any animals if they're excited

933
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:35,160
to, but it's so, so, so important to make sure that we're doing it responsibly.

934
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:36,560
That's the key word here.

935
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:40,960
We want responsible rescuers.

936
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:45,560
If not, you're just part of the problem, I guess.

937
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:46,560
Exactly.

938
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:47,560
Amazing.

939
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:55,560
So again, this was such a pleasure talking with you and such an inspiring and educative

940
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:56,560
conversation.

941
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:00,960
Thank you so much, Gwendolyn, for having accepted my invitation.

942
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:02,360
Oh, of course.

943
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:03,360
Thank you so much for having me.

944
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:04,360
It's been a pleasure.

945
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:06,520
Thank you everyone for listening.

946
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:10,860
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

947
01:12:10,860 --> 01:12:13,920
Let's encourage more people to take action.

948
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:34,960
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.