Back in 2003, the highest grossing movie was Finding Nemo.
And that year, Finding Nemo was competing with Pirates of the Caribbean, The Matrix
Reloaded and the third Lord of the Rings movie.
And it is understandable, the Pixar animation work is genius.
The characters are funny and touching at times.
The storyline is thoughtful and speaks to a wide audience.
But what really compels me about the story of Finding Nemo is its animal rights dimension.
For the first time ever, we had a movie depicting fish and other sea life as individual sentient
creatures.
Of course, they were anthropomorphized to a certain degree, but still, for once, they
were represented as more than food.
Other than that, the whole plot of the movie revolved around an act of animal abuse, the
capture and captivity of Nemo in an aquarium, the habit humans have of turning marine life
into indoor decoration.
And this is the topic of today's episode.
To discuss this issue, I have with me Gwendolyn Church, the founder of Friends of Philip,
a fish and aquatic animal sanctuary based in Reno, Nevada in the United States.
Gwendolyn, thank you so much for being here.
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
So most people were completely blunt about the animal rights message in Finding Nemo,
so much so that there might have been a spike in clownfish sales after the release of the
movie.
And I feel like it's a symptom of how fish is still viewed as nothing more than food.
It is so hard for people to consider fish as being sentient.
So Gwendolyn, do you share that observation?
And do you have an idea of why it is so hard for people to care about fish?
I do share that view.
And I think a huge part of why it's difficult for us to connect to fish is because we live
in such different worlds.
Most of us in our lives will interact with terrestrial farmed animals in one way or another,
whether it's meeting a cow or just driving past a field of sheep or something like that.
We see them day to day.
And we don't have anything even close to that with fish.
For most people, the way that they will interact with a fish most often is through eating them.
And then we may or may not encounter fish as, you know, quote unquote, pet animals kept in
aquariums, either in the home or in the pet store or visiting an aquarium or something
like that.
And I think that kind of inherent separation that comes with just the very different environments
that we live in makes it a bit more difficult for people to connect to fish.
And on top of that, fish aren't what many people would consider kind of classically
cute the way a dog is or a cow or many of the terrestrial animals that we also love.
And so it can be really hard, I think, for people to look at a fish and connect to that
animal as an individual and recognize that they really are an individual.
And I think what compounds that is when we do meet fish in captivity, it's either as
a very kind of passing moment in an aquarium, you know, like going to visit a big aquarium
or something like that, or as a basically decoration, like you said, in someone's home.
And we don't spend the time looking at that animal and interacting with them as an individual.
We just say, oh, wow, what a pretty fish and kind of move on.
And even more so, you know, we'll encounter a fish who is maybe not being treated very
well.
And most of us don't recognize what that looks like.
So if I meet a dog and I can see that the dog is thin or sick or not doing well, like
a lot of people, I think, can recognize that pretty easily.
And it's harder for most of us to see that when we look at a fish.
So people might encounter a fish in a bowl and say, wow, fish are so boring when the
takeaway should be, wow, that fish is very mistreated and they're not feeling well.
So what makes a fish sentient?
Can we make if someone is listening to this and they are not convinced that a fish is
sentient?
What would you say to that person?
I think that that person should probably read up a bit more on our scientific understanding
of fish and fish's experiences.
You know, there have been all kinds of studies, some horrible experiments done to fish that,
you know, let us know that we scientifically know that fish are sentient.
We know that they feel pain.
We know that they want to avoid pain.
We know that they remember places and faces.
We know that they remember individuals.
We know that there are some species of fish who can recognize themselves in a mirror.
So we know all of that scientifically.
But I think even more importantly, I would encourage that person to find a way to interact
with fish on an individual level, because all you have to do is meet one fish who is
happy and healthy and treated well.
And it's just so apparent that they're sentient and that they're an individual.
So is it the solution to resolving this wrong view about fish?
Is the solution to encourage interactions with marine life?
I think it is in a certain sense, as long as we're doing it responsibly.
You know, I don't think that the way that we should strive to connect with fish is by
purchasing them as pets and bringing them into our home.
I don't think that the way that we should interact with fish is by pulling them out
of their homes so that they can live in aquariums.
I think the way that we should best interact with fish is the way that we should interact
with all animals, which is meeting them on their terms and being respectful of them as
individuals.
And what do you think about people who, I guess, have that interaction but still hold
that view about fish?
For example, fishermen.
I cannot think of someone who spends greater time with fish than a fisherman.
And they see that when they pull out the fish from the water, they see that the fish is
struggling, but still that connection is, I guess, absent from their minds.
How do you explain that?
That's a really good question.
I think that it's kind of similar to hunting.
If you talk to hunters and fishermen, they'll talk about the connection that they feel to
the animals and the connection that they feel to nature.
And I think that it's kind of falling into that trap that we do a lot, which is focusing
on our human-based experiences.
And yes, you can feel very connected to nature by interacting with a hurt animal, but you
can also feel very connected to nature by observing that animal from a distance and
watching them live their lives and seeing the majesty and the beauty of them being left
alone and free in their lives and their world.
And so I think that a lot of the context of fishing is that same thing.
People want to connect with nature.
They want to connect with animals and are maybe not thinking of ways that they could
do that that don't require the suffering of another individual.
And I want to address some of the maybe prejudices or lies we tell ourselves about fish.
A lot of those fishermen say, you know, they practice a kind of fishing where they pull
out the fish and then they put it back in the water and they think of it as being compassionate
and not harming the fish.
What do you say about that?
I mean, at its most blunt level, I would ask them if they'd want someone to come into their
home, dunk them underwater for two minutes and then shove them back in and call that
compassion.
I don't think that there's a way to frame that as a compassionate act.
You know, compassion is not inflicting unnecessary harm on someone else.
It's respecting someone else's autonomy in their life.
And I think that if someone really wants to interact with fish and they're already in
the position and have the privilege to be able to spend money to go by fishing equipment,
maybe they should spend that money on a camera.
Maybe they should spend that money on a GoPro that they can stick underwater and watch the
fish and see them in their environment.
Maybe they should learn how to scuba dive and be able to interact with fish in a peaceful,
nonviolent and truly compassionate way.
And so what do you think about the media around fish?
I talked a lot about Finding Nemo, but there are so many documentaries out there which
highlight the lives of fish.
Is it useful or is there like a bad, negative impact to that media like Finding Nemo, which
the whole plot of the story is about saving this fish, but then people have watched the
movie and felt the need to go to a pet store and adopt a clownfish?
This was not planned, I think, by people who made the movie or thought about its effects
on the viewers.
So what do you think about the whole media ecosystem around fish?
I think it's a little hard to say in one answer because there are so many different types
of media.
I think a lot of the documentaries are generally beneficial.
I think it's very sad to see in many documentaries that our impacts on fish and their environments
are prioritized as an environmental issue.
I would never in a million years say that the environment and our impact on the environment
isn't huge, but I think that there's also room in that conversation to talk about our
impacts on individuals and the fish who live there.
But for a movie like Finding Nemo, I think it's really fascinating because, like you
said, the movie is entirely based around this story of a fish who was like unwillingly separated
from his family who was pulled forcibly from his home.
And I will say I love Finding Nemo.
I love that movie.
I'm a huge Pixar person.
I love animated movies and I love Finding Nemo.
And I think it's so interesting and kind of typical that we watch a movie like Finding
Nemo where the dentist very early on, he says, oh, I found this little guy struggling for
life out in the reef.
And all of us as the viewers were like, no, you didn't.
You did not.
You weren't struggling for life.
He was doing great.
He had his family.
He had his friends.
He was fine.
And you pulled him out of his home and that's wrong.
And I think it's unfortunate that we can watch a movie like that and recognize that and then
still feel the desire to go to the pet store and buy a fish who was also pulled out of
their home away from their family and away from everything they've ever known so that
we can keep them in an aquarium in our house.
You know, most saltwater fish that you could buy in a store today were wild caught.
Not necessarily in the way that Nemo was.
It's more of like an industrial capture kind of scale.
It's not wouldn't typically be just an individual diver.
It's more people do dive in and they'll catch the fish individually but on a massive scale.
And you know, then freshwater fish are captive bred, but they go through their own whole
horrible start to life of transport and difficult things.
And I think that a movie like Finding Nemo gives us the opportunity to recognize that
our treatment of these animals is wrong.
And I think it's unfortunate that many of us watch it and take away the kind of human
focused message of, oh, but isn't it fun to have a fish in an aquarium?
I want to talk about the pet stores.
But first, let's go back to what you said about climate change.
Because that is also something I have noticed.
How the highlight is, you know, we often hear environmental conservation or conservation
of fish population.
And it is always said with like the idea that we want to continue fishing those populations,
but in a responsible way and in a sustainable way.
There are a lot of those buzzwords used in order to justify human exploitation of animals.
And I never heard anyone in those documentaries or public commentators talk about the suffering
it causes on the fish population.
And it's such a, when you think about the scale, the number of those fish populations
just getting annihilated by human exploitation, it's crazy.
It's maddening.
So can you comment on that?
Yeah, it is maddening.
That's a good way to describe it.
I think that one of the areas that the animal rights and vegan movement is really lacking
is in our conversations around fish.
We all know the numbers around terrestrial farmed animals, that billions are killed every
year.
And what we don't talk about in that context is that there are trillions of fish killed
every year.
That's completely incomprehensible numbers of fish who are killed.
And I think it's overwhelming and it is hard to take those trillions and turn it into an
individual conversation, especially when, as we talked about earlier, people already struggle
to connect to fish.
So I think a lot of times it's maybe a little bit easier to get non-vegans and people who
are outside of the animal rights world to connect to the environmental issues.
Because you say things like, oh, we're going to have fishless oceans by 2048.
And people go, wow, that sounds terrifying because what are we going to eat?
And we talk about sustainable fishing and all these things, like you said.
And I think a lot of those are just frankly buzzwords and things like you said to help
us feel better about the atrocity that is ongoing in our treatment of fish and the environment
as a result.
There's not a kind way to fish and there is not a compassionate way to do any kind of
the farming that we do.
And so I think maybe because we struggle to connect to fish, it's a little bit easier
to pull in that environmental conversation and get people to connect on that level.
But I think that really is an area that we're kind of failing to fish specifically, that
we need to talk about them more.
Yes.
And we often, everyone I think who is listening to this podcast has seen pictures of birds
struggling with a piece of plastic around their neck or plastic that they tried to eat
and it's stuck.
But I think about it as if the birds are marine birds who fish for surviving are struggling
with human presence to this extent.
What is happening under the sea with smaller fish and smaller aquatic life?
Yeah, it's hidden but it doesn't make it less valid of a cause or the pain is still
there.
It's just hidden.
That's the thing.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I mean, like you said, we've all seen the videos like the birds or the sharks or the
seals or even the fish who are caught even like in nets underwater and divers cutting
them free and things.
And if you look at some of the reactions to those videos, it's always people saying, wow,
it's so amazing that you rescued that shark or whatever.
And there's no acknowledgement of the fact that that shark needed to be rescued because
we eat fish and they were trapped in fishing equipment because most of the plastic in the
ocean is discarded fishing equipment.
And so if we weren't fishing, the amount of plastic that we need to remove from the
ocean and the just environmental catastrophe that is happening because of that would be
such a smaller scale.
It would still be a problem, of course.
But fishing is such a disaster for that.
I am so happy to hear you say that because I hear friends and people debating plastic
straws and their impact on the ocean.
Meanwhile, it's fishing that is causing all of that plastic in the water.
Yeah, I think I've seen it before.
There is, I don't know, something I've seen online that it basically said like you'll
stop using plastic straws to save fish, but you won't stop eating fish to save fish.
And I think that's, you know, there's no better summary of it than that because that really
is the leading cause.
Truly.
And what about the mercury?
I have mentioned a few times in this podcast how in the Mediterranean diet, if you eat
fish, it's considered healthy, but there is the mercury inside the fish.
So it's bad for your health, but it's also bad for the health of the fish.
For starter, I mean, and I guess they're suffering from all of those chemicals we dump in the
water.
Do we have any data or anything about how fish is suffering from aquatic life in general
is suffering from, I don't know, like chemical burns or things like that?
I would assume that there must be.
I honestly don't know.
I assume that there is.
I think though that like something we maybe don't take into account a lot when we think
about fish and pollution and kind of water is the way that fish interact with their environment.
You know, we all have had the experience of breathing in smoke and how unpleasant that
is.
You know, I have lived in an area affected by wildfires for a long time and the smoke
from the wildfires is very intense sometimes.
Or if you don't live near that area, you're lucky, but maybe you've experienced trying
to start a campfire and getting the face full of smoke and just your eyes burning and your
nose burning and your lungs burning.
For a fish, if they're living in water that's polluted, it's not just their eyes and their
gills because their entire body is surrounded by it in a way that we just kind of don't
experience as much with air.
We can stick our hand in smoke and we're not going to, as far as I know, we're not going
to really feel like a smoke burn.
But for fish, if they're living, I see most frequently with rescued fish, things like
ammonia burns.
You'll see this too in intensively farmed animals like chickens will have ammonia burns
and things on their bodies because of living in an area of such concentrated pollution.
And so when fish are living in that, it's burning their skin, it's getting pulled into
their bodies and into their lungs and things.
We know that mercury is an issue.
We know that microplastics are an issue.
There's all kinds of things that we have put into the ocean that fish are now having to
take into their bodies and they don't have an escape from it.
And so then of course, when we eat the fish, we're taking in anything that they have inside
of their bodies too.
It's a great analogy.
Like a wildfire.
Yeah, I love that analogy.
So I want to get back to the pet stores because I feel like this is what the interaction people
have with live fish is true.
A pet store usually, that's the most common interaction they have.
And pet stores are kind of weird in a way because here you are in your hometown in the
middle of North America and there's this place which has in captivity some creatures from
all over the world, including fish from oceans at kilometers away, worlds away from where
you are.
So where do they find the fish?
How is the fish brought to the pet store?
And why is it allowed?
How is this legal?
All good questions.
So for where the fish come from, it's really going to vary.
And I think to kind of get into that, we should back up just half a step and say that fish
are the most numerous pet animal.
And so for all the dogs and the cats that we see through our days interacting with people
that they can take their dog out with them or you see a cat outside or something like
that, there are so many more fish.
And they're all kept in these little tanks either in our homes or in pet stores.
And so I think it's great that you're asking this because a lot of people don't think of
like, well, how did they even get here?
I mean, a dog, we can all understand stray dogs, but you don't encounter like a stray
fish that you take home and have as like, oh, I found this stray fish and now they're
my friend.
That doesn't happen.
It should because people dump fish, but that's a whole other problem.
But the fish from the pet stores, it really comes down to either wild capture or captive
bred.
So the majority of saltwater fish, about 90% of saltwater fish are wild caught, which means
that they're captured from places like Hawaii, the Philippines, all the areas that have beautiful
saltwater reefs.
There's probably some level of captive fishing going on.
A lot of it is in kind of the Southeast Asia area from my understanding.
It's been a minute since I looked at all these statistics.
So these fish are wild caught.
There's a few different methods, a semi-common one or a very common one actually is called
cyanide fishing.
That's technically illegal in most places, but there are ways you can test to see if
a fish was captured using cyanide fishing.
And there have been studies that have shown that a substantial number of the fish in the
aquarium trade were captured using cyanide fishing.
So what this means is that a diver goes into a reef with usually like basically a squeeze
bottle of a cyanide poison that they'll use to spray onto the fish in the reef.
It'll stun the fish, basically kind of paralyze them, and then they'll collect all the fish.
As you can imagine, a massive number of these fish die as a result of cyanide toxicity.
It's incredibly toxic.
It's incredibly dangerous for the fish and for the diver, and it's hugely destructive
to the reef.
Coral is a living organism that is also impacted by cyanide toxicity, and the coral can't swim
away.
And so it's hugely destructive to the reefs.
It's hugely destructive to the fish.
And I think it's something like 90% of captured saltwater fish will die within their first
year.
A huge amount of that is because of the stress of capture and transport.
So most saltwater fish come from those kinds of scenarios.
There is a smaller portion.
I think there's been some success with breeding like clownfish in particular in captivity
to kind of reduce that, but that comes with its own problems.
Then the flip side of that is that most freshwater fish are bred in captivity.
So this is like your goldfish, your bettas, your tetras, your Corydoras, just the whole,
most of the fish that you see in the pet store will have been captive bred.
And in those cases, it's essentially factory farming.
It's very reminiscent of what people call puppy mills.
And if anything, it's worse because there's no legal regulation.
There's no protection for fish.
A lot of these fish are bred in tropical areas like Thailand and then would be imported to
other countries.
The United States is the largest importer of fish.
We have the largest number of pet fish.
And there are some breeding facilities here.
I believe a lot of goldfish are bred somewhere in the south.
So it really just kind of depends on the species.
But for captive breeding, it's very similar.
You get a lot of loss, call it loss, as if that's a thing to write off in transport or
at the facilities themselves and then of course more at the stores.
And so it's really just this kind of mass production of fish for sale in pet stores.
And as with any kind of mass production of anything, there's these losses that are accepted
on some level.
But in this case, it's not that, oh, you had some amount of scrap for your manufacturing
process.
It's that some number of individuals died because of this process and because of the
drive for profits.
Yeah, I think I'm sorry.
You had another question and I kind of forgot what it was.
I don't remember.
I think I asked about pet stores.
How is it, it is weird to have those strange species in the middle of North America.
It's so weird.
I think another thing that people don't really recognize with fish is that there's over 33,000
known species of fish.
And so that's more than 60% of the known vertebrate species on earth.
It's a massive number of species.
And of course, not nearly that many numbers, thank goodness, are kept in captivity or sold
as pets.
But, you know, if you go into a pet store, you'll see hamsters, rats, mice, a few species
of birds and things like that.
And then you might see two or three dozen different species of fish.
And every one of those species is just as different from each other as a parrot is to
a chicken.
They all have different needs.
They have different kind of social structures that they'll build.
They have different ways that they interact with each other.
And pet stores will not make that clear to people.
I never thought about it this way.
But you're right.
It's incredible.
Okay, I have a weird follow up question.
Why have we selected those species of fish, like goldfish or betta, instead of local fish
that we can find in lakes and rivers of the US or North America or Europe?
That's a very good question.
I don't like I've never read anything about it.
My guess would be because of the appearance and the breeding of some of these fish.
So you know, like the betta fish that you see, every single betta you see in a store
will have been bred in captivity because they look nothing like their wild ancestors.
Bettas in particular were actually domesticated for fighting because they're a particularly
aggressive species of fish.
And so now they've been selectively bred for generations upon generations to have those
fabulous brightly colored gorgeous fins that everybody loves, but that can hinder their
quality of life.
And so I think that's a big part of it is the appearance of them, you know, compared
to if you go to like a, I don't know, a local pond or something that has native tiny minnows
in it.
The native minnows might be a little bit less pretty.
But honestly, I think that part of it is just that those are the species that have always
been kind of domesticated and bought and sold.
And I don't fully know the history.
It's something I should definitely read up on because now I'm really curious about it.
I guess I've never thought about it a whole lot because that is a really good question.
Like why, why do I have a room full of rescued tropical fish in Nevada?
Like there is no reason for any of those fish to be here.
You know, none of the fish who live in our house would survive for more than a minute
or two in our ecosystems here.
And all of the fish who live in our ponds and things would just wreak havoc on the ecosystem
because they're also not native and they could survive and do well in the cold water, but
they're not a native species and they would unintentionally destroy the ecosystem.
So yeah, it's very bizarre.
That's the thing.
I hope someone wrote about it, but it might be the case that nobody wrote about this issue
because it's not in interest of most people, most animal rights activists.
So what about the general public?
You mentioned how bitter was bread for fighting.
What is fish fighting?
I would say, you know, kind of like any other animal fighting for show, for entertainment.
You know, my understanding is basically it would just be putting two generally male bettas
into the same tank and watching them attack each other.
I think it's the same thing that people are drawn to with things like cock fighting and
dog fighting of just an awful display that I don't understand why people are drawn to
it.
You know, I think it's not, I wouldn't say it's particularly common, but I don't know
a whole lot about kind of the state of fish fighting right now.
My only experience with anything even slightly close to it, which is unfortunately very common,
is people who are completely uneducated, they go to a pet store, they buy two bettas and
they think they can live together.
And then they just beat each other up really bad.
You know, and it's not the fish doing anything wrong.
It's them acting according to their nature.
But yeah, it's really, really sad.
We've had a few bettas who have been kept with others and they are always just, you
know, their fins are shredded.
They're so stressed.
They might have wounds on their bodies and things.
And it's just, it's awful.
And I also want to talk about goldfish because it's the most popular species of fish that
is kept in captivity.
First of all, is it true that goldfish has no memory?
No, not at all.
Because that's the thing they are known for.
It's such a common myth.
Yeah.
People will say the three second memory.
Goldfish can remember things for years.
They form incredibly strong family bonds and relationships.
They remember individuals.
They remember, you know, their favorite places.
Just like other species of fish, they'll remember if they've experienced pain.
Yeah, they're incredibly intelligent.
They're, I think, as far as like myths and general perceptions go, if you're looking
at pet species, goldfish have received by far the worst disservice from humans because
there's all these myths about them that they have a three second memory, that they'll only
live for a few months, that they're stupid, that they're boring, that they're any of these
things that they grow to the size of the tank they're kept in.
I mean, I could just ramble off all these myths.
And it's all wrong.
And it's heartbreaking because goldfish, they're personally my favorite species of fish.
They're hilarious.
And they are just incredible.
Like I said, they form these really, really, really strong family and kind of friendship
bonds to the point that our organization now, we basically have a policy that we will not
keep a single pair of goldfish outside of very extenuating circumstances because when
one inevitably passes before the other, the loss is just way too much for the remaining
fish.
We had a pair, Lucas and Wednesday.
Lucas, we still have.
Wednesday had neurological and other physical health issues from the treatment she'd received
before us.
And her original partner, Pugsley, passed away.
And Lucas had just arrived.
We finished out his quarantine and he moved in with Lucas, with Wednesday, to be a companion
to her.
And Wednesday passed away about a year ago.
And I genuinely thought Lucas was going to die too.
It was the most heartbreaking thing I've ever seen.
He was laying at the bottom of the tank.
He would not eat.
He was just lethargic and completely uninterested in anything for well over a week.
And I was freaking out because I'd never seen something like that so intense before.
And I was like, oh my gosh, like Wednesday passed away of expected things.
And I had some, I was suddenly worried, like, is Lucas so sick or something?
Did something happen?
And our vet came out and she said, no, he's doing fine.
It was the loss of his companion.
And so, you know, that I think is something that people don't recognize with fish and
with goldfish, but all fish really is the bonds and the relationships that they can
make.
So Lucas now lives with all of our other fancy goldfish and they have, you know, their whole
little family there together and they have a solid group and that's kind of always our
goal is because they're just so social and they form those bonds.
It's so important to keep them together.
What you just described, I never heard before.
I've heard about all the false ideas that we propagate on goldfish.
And I'm just astonished by the disparity between that public image of goldfish and
the reality of who they are.
I always am too.
It's like simultaneously, you know, very frustrating and heartbreaking because I see those public
perceptions all the time.
And then also a privilege to get to witness those relationships and the family bonds that
they have.
You know, watching Wednesday and Lucas's relationship and seeing the comfort that he provided to
her at the end of her life is just like something that I will always cherish.
Because, you know, even before she passed, she was slowing down, she wasn't doing well
and in her last week she wasn't really eating and she was kind of hanging out at the bottom
of the tank and Lucas wouldn't leave her side.
And so seeing them in there together, knowing Wednesday's background and knowing that she
was at the end of her life and watching the comfort that he gave to her was just incredible
to see.
And I think it's tragic that most people don't know that that exists or don't see it with
fish and with all animals and the relationships that they form.
I use the term anthropomorphized to describe a bit of how the characters in Finding Nemo
are built.
But I have kind of a complicated understanding of that word because we often use it to mean,
oh, those feelings of grief and of complicated, complex emotions that we display as humans,
they are our feelings and the rest of the animal kingdom don't share those feelings
with us.
They're not capable of that emotional depth.
And we use, oh, you're anthropomorphizing animals in a way of saying this is the domain
of humans.
These emotions like the grief you mentioned is the domain that it's proper to humans
and not to animals.
Yeah, so when you tell stories like these, I think it destroys that view, that belief,
which is so well rooted in our minds.
Yeah, I think that's a really, really good way to describe it.
And I haven't really thought of it from that perspective before, but you're completely
right.
We use this explanation of, oh, you're anthropomorphizing to just dismiss the experiences of animals
and say that that is a uniquely human experience when it's not.
And I think that's part of what lets us as a species treat other animals the way that
we do and why these myths around fish in particular, but around all animals are still so pervasive.
Because I think that if instead of saying that, oh, the grief that Nemo's father experienced
is just anthropomorphization, and is that a word?
Yes, I think so.
Okay.
If instead of dismissing it that way, we actually had to sit with the experiences like what
I saw with Wednesday and Lucas and say, no, this is real grief and this is loss and this
is an experience that is shared across species.
I think it would make it much harder for humans to treat other animals the way that we do.
And I would dare to go as far as to say that sometimes when we witness those behaviors
and experiences, we can learn from them.
What's so shocking about learning from animals, learning love, learning how to go through
grief or being inspired by other animals.
But for the general public, it's like blasphemy.
Don't say it.
Yeah, I mean, that's such a good point.
It was so powerful for me to witness Lucas staying by Wednesday at the end of her life.
And I've always believed that that's important.
If your companion or a family member or someone is at the end of their life, I think it's
so critical that we be there with them and go through that process and that experience
with them.
And I think that we often want to run from a lot of those feelings and those experiences.
And I think that we really can learn a lot from animals and the relationships that they
have with each other and the respect that they show to each other in those situations.
I want to quickly go back to the pet store story.
I truly want to make a good job at covering that industry.
So they are captured or bred in foreign countries and then brought to the US or to Europe or
wherever the demand is.
How are they brought to another continent?
What are the means of transportation and what is it like from their point of view?
So of course I am in the US, so I have the most experience with that.
I know that there are some countries that actually do have some protections in place
for fish.
The United States is not one of them.
So again, it will vary by species how transport happens.
So fish like goldfish and the other community species who can live in groups are often transported
in just plastic bags, usually in some kind of styrofoam cooler.
They'll just come in this big cooler and they're in a bag and there's, I don't know, the bag
is maybe a third to half full with water and the rest is air.
And then they are acclimated to the pet store tanks from those bags.
Bettas are unique because they have to be separated and so they are, rather than a single
large bag, they're transported in tons of tiny individual bags, which will mean that
you'll have a fish in, like, it's such a small amount of water.
I mean, maybe three to four tablespoons of water.
I don't know how many milliliters that is, I'm sorry.
Like a very small amount of water.
Like if you've seen the cups that they're in on pet store shelves, they're transported
in less water than that.
And you know, it is incredibly stressful for any of these fish.
Transport is really, really hard on fish and it's really hard on any animals, but I think
for fish in particular because their entire environment is going to be sloshing around
and splashing.
For a fish kept in a bag with other fish, they're banging into each other.
There might be stress-based aggression because, of course, the space is far too small.
The water quality is getting steadily worse.
They may be getting low on oxygen, depending on how long they've been in the bag.
It's just very, very, very stressful.
Fish in the bag will die and now they're there and their bodies, you know, it's just terrible.
It's so stressful for fish to be transported in that way.
And you know, whether a fish is moving two miles down the road or coming from Thailand
to Nevada, transport is always stressful.
There are ways to minimize the stress and my understanding, I could, you know, I'm not
positive but my understanding is that some companies will put certain kind of chemicals
into the water to try to help like keep the fish a bit calmer and things like that.
But it's just generally horrendously stressful.
And yeah, it's awful.
Tons of fish will die in transport and it's really, really heartbreaking.
Well, this whole industry and economic activity is awful the way you describe it and the details
are just gut-wrenching.
But it is not a tragic situation.
We can do something about it.
We can change things for the better.
And you have made that choice by opening Friends of Philip.
So let me start by asking you, who is Philip?
So Philip was our first rescue.
He did pass away just this year, but he had been with us for almost four years, which
a typical Betta lifespan, it varies dramatically, but two to five-ish years, some have been
known to live up to eight, a lot live for less than a year, you know, it really kind
of varies.
So he was quite elderly, geriatric is what our vet always called him.
So Philip was our first rescue, he was a Betta, and it was basically the first of what has
become a very often repeated story for us where I saw him on a pet store shelf.
It was the classic situation of being in one of those little cups of water.
He looked just terrible.
You know, I was pretty new to fish at the time, but even having not seen very many sick
fish, it was so apparent that he was in horrible shape.
I look back at the photos of him now and I'm honestly surprised that he survived.
But his fins were rotted away, he was incredibly thin, he was very, very pale, just, you know,
to almost anyone looking at him, it should have been apparent that he was going to die
if he stayed there.
So I asked the manager at the pet store if I could adopt him, and they said yes, so they
let me take him home for free.
And so I had a fish, but I didn't have any of the equipment for the fish, which is not
the thing I would recommend doing.
What I did have was a very thorough understanding of the nitrogen cycle and a process called
the fish-in cycle, and of all of the things that I needed to keep a betta healthy and
safe.
And so with that, I just needed the tank, so I ran to another store, I got the tank,
I got all the equipment, and kind of got him home and situated, and then panicked about
it for several weeks while I was doing the cycle process and going through all these
things for the first time.
But he recovered, and he did very, very well for a really long time.
And seeing that process and facilitating that process is what kind of motivated me to keep
doing it and to get more involved in fish rescue and advocacy.
Let me say that I think it's beautiful how you had that instinct, that instant compassion
for Philip and decided to adopt him in a spur of the moment situation, because we often
have this instinct for doing good, for giving, for being compassionate, but then we stop
ourselves and we don't express our inspiration to do good.
So I'm so happy to hear that this was a true moment of instinct and inspiration that you
had for him.
So okay, you adopt Philip, he's in your home.
How do you go from there to let's adopt more fish and let's create an animal sanctuary?
That's a good question.
I think I'd been vegan for a little bit.
I'd been volunteering at a really amazing farmed animal sanctuary for a bit by that
point too.
And I think there was just always that part of me that was like, well, of course I'm going
to eventually be rescuing animals.
That's the only natural progression for my life.
And so I think that was a decent part of it.
And really it was that I was not in a position where I thought that I had the resources or
really like the space to be able to rescue terrestrial farmed animals.
And looking back on that, I'm kind of sad that that's the reason that fish became the
focus because I wish that I had just known that fish needed so much more help.
And I wish I had just known that, but I didn't.
But it was really bringing Philip home and connecting with him and starting to learn
more and more about our treatment of fish and our interactions with fish that kind of
drove me towards aquatic animals and fish specifically.
Because I think to that point, I had been a, I would say, a pretty typical vegan that
I cared so strongly about terrestrial animals.
And I of course didn't eat fish and I thought fishing was terrible.
And I knew on the very broad level how bad some of these things were.
But I think just like many of us, I'd never had that moment of understanding and connection
with a fish and recognizing just how incredible they are.
And so getting that connection with Philip really facilitated that.
And it sort of became, it was just this moment of like, wow, this is something that I could
actually do is that I have the space, I have the resources, I have the time.
I was very successful with our first rescue and I thought I could do it again.
So a couple months, I want to say, I brought Philip home in July and I think in October
or November, our next two rescues came home and that was Frankie and Ozai who were two
bettas that had been kept together in a really just awful situation.
And I got to see them recover and them flourish and do very, very well.
And it just kind of continued to build steadily from there.
I never wanted to let things get crazy of suddenly going from zero tanks to 50 overnight
and getting it over my head or something.
But a bit over a year after Philip came home, I decided to actually make it into an organization.
And I was bouncing around of should it be like a pet fish rescue?
Should it be a small animal rescue?
What kind of organization should this really be?
And ultimately settled on a fish sanctuary because I think that farmed animal sanctuaries
are so valuable and I can see what they do to let people connect to farmed animals.
And I know that fish need that too.
How many residents are right now in your care?
Right around 100.
Wow.
Yeah, of just over 25 species.
And where did they come from?
So it varies a bit.
Most of our bettas came from pet stores in the same way that Philip did.
We of course would never buy a fish, but we do take in pet store surrenders.
So most of our bettas came from that situation.
All of our community species, so like the tetras, the danios, the Corydoras, the cute
little tropical dudes, those were all caregiver surrenders.
And then our goldfish were also caregiver surrenders.
Oh, there's a train driving past my house.
I hope you can't hear it.
Oh, it's okay.
I mean, it adds to the ambiance.
Okay.
Yeah, I can go on mute.
There's an intersection right over there.
Sorry.
But yeah, so the goldfish and the cold water species were also caregiver surrenders.
And then we have two geckos who were caregiver surrenders and we have three hens who were
as well.
But of course, mostly fish.
And what does it take to care for all of them?
First of all, how many tanks do you have for all of those fishes?
It's a little embarrassing because I never know off the top of my head and I always have
to count even though it's always the same number.
But well, actually it has changed recently.
We've said goodbye to some of our older betta residents recently.
So I've kind of decreased the number of small tanks that we have.
But we currently have, oh dear, sorry, 20 tanks.
And that includes two, I call them like stock tank ponds.
So you know, like the big plastic kind of look in stock tanks that are often used for
farmed animals to just drink water out of.
We have two of those in our garage for goldfish and cold water species.
And the other tanks are your kind of classic glass aquarium that have our tropical species
in them.
We have one additional stock tank outside and then we just finished our larger in-ground
pond.
So I don't think that quite counts as a tank though.
Well, that's amazing.
A pond.
There's a lot.
How big is it?
How big is it, Paul?
It is 3,300 gallons.
So it's about six feet, it's just over six feet deep at its deepest point.
And yeah, it's pretty sizable.
It was a very big hole.
And how many hours of work does it represent to care for all of them?
It really varies.
So each day I spend, it's really very quick.
That's the fun thing with fish and aquariums is that there's not the kind of, you know,
daily poop scooping that you do, like we do for like the chickens.
So each day it's probably 10 minutes in the morning, 10 minutes at night to feed everybody
and check on everyone and make sure they're doing okay.
And then when they need water changes, it'll be several days.
You know, maybe I'll spend an evening doing six or eight water changes and I'll do that
a few nights a week.
But it does depend a bit on when the tanks need changes and how everyone's doing and
all of that kind of stuff.
And the logistics of it, I mean, you had to have taken the time to think about it.
And I don't think there is a manual out there that you can read from to tell you how to
care about all of them.
Unfortunately, there's almost too many manuals and most of them are not very good.
So that's one of the challenges is that there isn't in for most cases a single place that
you can go and really learn about how to care properly for fish.
That is changing.
Our Aquatic Vet has an amazing website with all kinds of resources on it.
More and more sites like, have you heard of the Open Sanctuary Project?
Yes.
And the Micro Sanctuary Resource Center.
They're both doing more and more resources on fish, which is amazing and things like
that.
So resources are becoming available, but a lot of what I know has just been gathered
through hours upon hours of searching through things on the internet and trying to think
really critically.
Because some sites will tell you that a goldfish does great in a 20 gallon tank and that is
not true.
So there is just a lot of kind of critical thinking and trying to figure out, okay, how
much do I trust this source?
And does this just make sense to me based on my experience with fish either similar
to this species or the species in particular and that kind of thing?
I'm so happy that you're doing this pioneering work, but at the same time, I'm thinking we
have been keeping goldfish in captivity for decades and it's only now in 2023 that we're
gathering that kind of data on the topic.
I thought that we were more informed on how to care for them.
I think we're informed in a lot of ways, but I think a lot of the information around fish
keeping is honestly really similar to what you find with terrestrial animals where it's
information on how to keep them alive and healthy enough, but it's not really information
on how to provide them with an environment where they can truly thrive.
I encounter this a lot with like our hens where we have a heater, of course, in our
coop for our chickens because it gets incredibly cold here in the winter.
But if you go onto any kind of quote unquote backyard chicken resource, they'll say, oh,
chickens can handle the cold or this is a cold hardy breed.
I think a lot of the information around fish is very similar where it's, yeah, a goldfish
can survive in a 20 gallon tank alone and they will never be happy that way.
But when our goal is to have something pretty to look at and have that thing as we see it
survive, it's not too much of a concern to the people putting together that information
whether the fish is actually happy.
I guess that's where the vegan factor plays a role, an important role.
That's why it's important for animal rights organizations to be led by vegans and not
just your random person who is not truly committed to the animal rights cause.
Yeah, I agree and I think you encounter that in the fish keeping world.
People call it the hobby, which I hate, but you encounter that a lot in that community
where there are plenty of people who care very strongly about their fish being healthy
and happy.
But those are some of the same people who will turn around and be getting rid of their
fish because they want to go in a different direction with their tank or something like
that.
If we truly care about these animals and want them to thrive and survive and be happy, their
well-being has to be the priority.
It can't be what we want and what we think is a good look or what we think makes sense
for them.
It has to truly be from the perspective of, okay, is this best for the individuals?
How do you provide healthcare to your sanctuary's residents?
That's a great question.
Unfortunately, in the fish world, most people think that vet care is just not a thing, which
is not at all the case.
If you go to most fish stores in the United States, they'll be selling all kinds of different
medications and antibiotics and things.
I don't know what it's like in other countries, but I know in the United States, these are
not regulated medications and they're sold.
You can get random antibiotics that aren't regulated or tracked or things like that that
you then go home and are exposing yourself to and putting in your tank to treat something
that may or may not actually need that medication.
There's all kinds of misinformation online about fish healthcare and treatment.
Most people think that that's the only option, but we use an incredible aquatic veterinarian,
Dr. Jessie Sanders at Aquatic Veterinary Services.
She has a mobile practice that covers California and Nevada, which is incredible, but there
are aquatic vets all over the place.
They're not as common, of course, as your typical dog and cat vet, but they do exist
and you can find them.
For our residents, I have a small number of things that I will do personally.
If a new fish is coming home and needs some additional support, I might use some aquarium
salt or things like that.
For any kind of true treatment, it's all done by our veterinarian.
We only use medications that have been prescribed.
We only treat based on her prescriptions and recommendations.
We've had a number of fish deal with things like bacterial infections that she can diagnose
and then provide good regulated prescribed medications for.
That's just huge.
Fish vet care looks just like terrestrial animal care.
Our residents have received x-rays, they've gotten ultrasounds, they've gotten injections
of antibiotics, they've had antibiotics added to the water.
We've had all kinds of treatment just like a terrestrial animal can receive.
I think that that's really, really valuable.
Something that maybe people don't know about is that there are aquatic vets and they're
amazing and they are so critical to providing responsible, compassionate care to fish.
I want to highlight how if you visit your Instagram account, there are some residents
that you post about who have been gravely mutilated or went through hell and you're
keeping them alive, which is quite touching.
I guess your vet is playing a key role in that process.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
We have a number of disabled residents, like you said.
We have fish who've come in with injuries and things.
We consult with our veterinarian on things like that in the same way that we would for
any other species.
It's incredibly, incredibly important to me to prioritize quality of life and an animal's
ability to live a happy, healthy life over anything else.
Our disabled residents will put some accommodations into their tanks, things that our vet has
recommended, things that I've learned online, things that we've just learned help them through
observation.
Our relationship with our vet is so integral to all of that, being able to provide the
care for our disabled residents and for our fully abled residents.
Because without her, we would be kind of in the dark on a lot of this stuff and knowing
if we're doing the right thing.
It's so, so important to have that relationship.
For the listeners who are inspired by what you're doing and who understand now how important
your work is and how you're working hard to care for them, how can they support your mission
and your sanctuary?
There are a few ways.
We're on Instagram and on Facebook.
Both are friends of Philip Fish Sanctuary.
It's a little long.
So we're on there.
You can follow us and follow along with the residents and things.
We do have through the social media links to different ways to support us through donations
and whatnot.
Honestly, the best way to support what we're trying to do is to just talk about fish more
and to advocate for them when you can.
I think a lot of us encounter fish as these living decorations in people's homes and it
can be an uncomfortable conversation to say, hey, I see you have a fish in a bowl.
Have you considered getting them a tank and things like that?
Then of course, to just not buy them and to not support the industries that are harming
them, that is always going to be the best and easiest way to support and advocate for
fish.
Well, that was my next question.
For the vegans who are listening to this podcast, what is your message to motivate them to take
action for sea life, for the fish population, against what is happening in pet stores and
through the fishing industry?
That's a very good question.
I think the main thing I would want to say is to not underestimate your own power and
influence in these situations.
If you're in the position and prepared to want to individually rescue a fish, that's
amazing, but a lot of people can't do that or simply don't want to take that on and that's
fine.
I think that the worst thing we can do is nothing because if we're silent, then nothing
is ever going to change.
Having ways to advocate that align with you personally and the things that you are passionate
about and motivated to do, whether that's going to protests, whether it's sharing on
social media, whether it's individual rescue, whether it's volunteering at a sanctuary or
things like that, I think that that can be really huge.
I would say that if you're a vegan who's already involved in animal rights and animal advocacy,
I would just say please evaluate your messaging and make sure that you're including fish.
It's so, so, so easy and so, so, so common for individual vegans and vegan organizations
to just not include fish at all.
I don't think it's ever done out of any malice.
It's just out of that same perspective that we all kind of struggle sometimes to connect
to aquatic life because we don't see them as much.
And so, if you're in the position to, I don't know, work with an organization and change
their messaging to better include fish and aquatic life, that's huge.
And that's exactly what these animals need.
And of course, people will find links to your Instagram and other resources in the description
below.
So Gwendolyn, this was a pleasure.
I think we covered most of what I wanted to cover.
Did you have anything more to add before we end this conversation?
Yeah, I think there's kind of one thing I always try to emphasize when I'm talking about
fish and fish rescue in general, because I think a lot of very well-intentioned people
will hear me talk about fish rescue and get motivated to do it themselves.
And that's amazing.
And my historian, Philip, is very cute, and I rescued him in some ways on impulse.
But I had an incredibly thorough understanding of what I needed to do to keep him safe and
keep his aquarium healthy.
And just Googling the nitrogen cycle and researching that and making sure you understand it is
going to be one of the most important things you could ever do if you're interested in
fish rescue.
And going into fish rescue or bringing a fish home without a thorough understanding of the
nitrogen cycle and how to keep them safe and how to take care of their aquarium is doing
them a huge disservice, regardless of intention.
And so I don't want to discourage anyone from rescuing fish or any animals if they're excited
to, but it's so, so, so important to make sure that we're doing it responsibly.
That's the key word here.
We want responsible rescuers.
If not, you're just part of the problem, I guess.
Exactly.
Amazing.
So again, this was such a pleasure talking with you and such an inspiring and educative
conversation.
Thank you so much, Gwendolyn, for having accepted my invitation.
Oh, of course.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you everyone for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.
Let's encourage more people to take action.
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.