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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.

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Today we are going to explore the link between ASMR and animal rights.

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About 7 years ago, one of my all time favorite ASMR artists, WhispersRed, also known as Emma,

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posted a video called ASMR Dog Spun and Massage.

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And then 4 years ago, a video called ASMR Veterinary Checkup.

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And in both of these videos, she's caring for a dog in a fantasy place called Wispows.

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So imagine my confusion and surprise when in 2021 she announced that Wispows was now

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a real place, a sanctuary for dogs located in Serbia.

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I was so happy to learn the news and it just increased my admiration for WhispersRed, whose

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love for animals shines brightly through her work.

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Emma, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Oh, thank you so much for asking me on.

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That's such a nice introduction.

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Thank you.

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Of course.

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I want to start by talking about ASMR because it is at the heart of everything you do.

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And I think you're the most knowledgeable person there is on this topic.

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Full stop.

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I don't know about anyone else who has thought so deeply about ASMR.

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In fact, you literally wrote the book on the topic.

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It is called Unwind Your Mind.

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And there you make the point that ASMR is much more complex, profound and multidimensional

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than we think.

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So my first question for you is, what's so special about ASMR?

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It's a form of healing for sure.

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And healing for me is something that puts us into a state of calm and presence so that

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our bodies can heal themselves.

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I think we are all healers of ourselves and each other.

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ASMR is a way to become still.

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Specifically for people who experience the ASMR tingle sensation.

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It's an actual physical sensation.

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There are people that make videos to give the sensation.

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And so ASMR is kind of perceived as a video or a type of video, but it's actually a physical

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sensation and it's like a tingly feeling that starts in the crown of your head and works

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its way down the back of your head and down your spine.

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And if you experience it, you've had it all your life basically.

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And I can't remember a time when I didn't feel it.

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And people say, when did you first feel it?

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Well, I don't know when I first felt it because I've always felt it.

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So I was probably feeling it, you know, as a tiny baby.

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And when we feel this feeling, we just become so still and focused.

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One of my favourite triggers for the feeling would have been when I was little watching

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my dad do building work because he was a builder.

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And I would just sit and watch him build walls and move his tools around.

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And I was so fixated on the movements and the progress of the wall and all of the details

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of it that I would just sit there, especially if, you know, being outside, I could hear

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the birds and the breeze and I would just feel this feeling.

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I would feel it when people played with my hair.

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I would ask my siblings to draw letters on my back.

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And so it's just a really calm, calm, focused feeling, but with this lovely, tingly feeling

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in your head.

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And when we feel still and when we feel calm, we're in that state where, well, we're certainly

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not in fight or flight mode.

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So we're not feeling anxious.

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We're just feeling super calm.

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And that's very healing for us.

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So I would suggest that ASMR is along the same lines of other healing modalities and

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complementary therapies.

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What you're pointing to is a type of mindfulness, I guess.

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And it's so underrated.

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I mean, when I look around and even at my life, it's so hard to just put down the cell

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phone and just pay attention to what's happening around you because, I mean, I'm going to be

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honest, it feels so boring.

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Your environment feels so boring.

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You want to just skip or add some spice to your life and compared to the entertainment

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out there, it's just, it doesn't compete.

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It's hard to just sit there and look at the landscape or something like that.

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So what do you say to people who struggle with that?

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Well, it's quite sad really, isn't it?

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Because there's so much stimulation around these days through the phone and it's just

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on tap, isn't it?

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Well, I grew up without the internet and there were only four channels on the TV when I was

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little and programs couldn't be recorded and you couldn't just stream them whenever you

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wanted.

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You had to be there sitting down watching at the right time that the program was on.

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So everything moved slower and as children, we were more able to self-soothe with the

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sounds that were around us and the visuals that were just around us and we were more

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fulfilled by our surroundings.

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So I feel very lucky to have grown up in that society, if you like.

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And so I see my own children now and they are sometimes overwhelmed with stimulation.

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And so it's a matter of bringing that down, limiting the amount of time on the screens,

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sitting down and having conversations, pointing out as perhaps you would say mundane things

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about our environment.

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But there are sounds everywhere and there's also a rise in anxiety, have you noticed,

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with younger people as well?

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So perhaps it's time to just bring that down and maybe change the language.

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It's not boring.

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It's actually very interesting if you look and if you listen and if you just give it

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time and listen to yourself.

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I mean, even listening to the sounds inside your own body, we don't do that even.

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Sit in a quiet room and listen to your own body.

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There's sound everywhere.

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And you know, when we sit in stillness as well, we have to deal with things that are

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going on in our mind.

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But that's a really good thing.

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It's very difficult to do and it's easy to escape from these days.

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But we ought to do that.

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We ought to process things in our mind and think for ourselves and just take a moment

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to think something through that we might have heard someone say during the day and think,

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well, what do I think about that?

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Does that make sense to me?

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Or, you know, we just need to have time to process our surroundings a little bit more.

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And you know, I feel a little bit guilty because I'm part of the problem.

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I'm creating a podcast and people are always listening to some podcasts while doing something

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else.

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They're distracted.

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Yeah, there is a great benefit to being more mindful and silencing your mind and paying

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attention to your surroundings.

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But there's also the other part that plays into destroying your mental health, which

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is the bad thoughts that you might have.

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So there is the distraction part and then there is the mental dialogue that is often

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negative in people.

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And I feel like ASMR, in addition of encouraging people to seek the quiet, seek the more calm

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state, there is also this loving kindness discourse that comes with it.

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So can you speak about that?

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Well, there's a lot of positive affirmation in ASMR videos.

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So yeah, we do have negative talk within us, don't we?

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But that's part of the process.

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And that's something that we do need to be in that moment so that we can process.

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Perhaps it's something to do with personal responsibility and taking responsibility for

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what we take in here.

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Obviously, what we take in there, we think about that.

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But what we take in here is important too and in here.

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And you said before about being part of the problem.

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Well, you're talking about important subjects and you're allowing people that time to think

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about the things that have been said in your podcast.

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So it's a choice, isn't it?

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We choose to listen to a certain thing.

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And then if we give ourselves time to think about it afterwards, what do I think about

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that?

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Did I agree with this?

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Did I agree with that?

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Are there any parts of that podcast that I could take into my daily life and perhaps

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I could adopt that way of being?

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So I don't know whether it's not about being part of the problem.

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It's that we all have a responsibility to decide what goes in and what we press play

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on and not.

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Whether we just flick through TikTok or we spend that time to listen to something that's

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going to nourish our mind.

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And I like to do cooking with earphones in and listen to something or music, but that's

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a choice for me.

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And another choice again is to have some time later where perhaps I'm taking my makeup off

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at night and I don't have anything on and I'm just using that time to be quiet.

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So it's just about personal responsibility, I think.

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Yeah, I think it's part of my inner negative discourse about myself.

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Well, we all do that.

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We all do that.

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Oh, yeah.

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For someone who is listening and who is not very familiar with ASMR, what video you have

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made in the past would you recommend for that person to watch as an introduction to the

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ASMR world?

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Well, first of all, ASMR isn't for everybody and not everybody experiences the feeling

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and the videos are made to give the feeling in the viewer.

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If they don't give the feeling, quite often they give just pure relaxation and calm because

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the sounds are very slow and very gentle.

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The voice is very gentle and soft.

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I would speak a lot quieter than I'm speaking now to you in a video and sometimes I would

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whisper.

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So I wouldn't suggest any particular one video for someone.

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I would suggest that they think, oh, do I feel that feeling?

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Yes or no?

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If it's a no, then what kind of sounds do I like?

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What kind of sounds make me feel calm?

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Is there anything that I would like to listen to in the background when I'm going to sleep

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that would help me feel calm?

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That's how I found ASMR because I was looking for rainforest sounds to help me fall asleep

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and I ended up finding ASMR videos and then I realized that there was a name for this

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feeling I'd always had.

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So yeah, I would just suggest having a think about which sounds make you feel nice and

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are there any sounds that you experienced in your childhood that you liked or any physical

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sensations, anything, you know, any kind of nurturing sensation.

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And then just go in with an open mind, type in ASMR and see what comes up.

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Keep going.

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Don't necessarily go for what comes up first because it might be something that's not ASMR.

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It's not everything labeled ASMR actually is ASMR.

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Yeah, I agree with that.

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I'm quite old school in the way that I do things.

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I'm quite kind of motherly and calm and I don't tend to follow the algorithm so much.

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So I don't tend to do videos that are the highest search terms.

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I have been...

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Do strange things for views if you get what I'm saying.

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I have been listening to ASMR for more than eight years now.

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I think maybe nine years.

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It started at my last year of high school.

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It was a storm of anxiety because of final exams, because I had to choose a career and

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what to study in college.

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And that's when I looked up some videos about relaxation on YouTube and then found an ASMR

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video and I was just hooked since that moment.

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But yeah, I don't recognize...

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It's not the same as nine years ago right now what's coming up as ASMR videos.

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And it doesn't feel as good or familiar to me than what I was used to.

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And I always thought that maybe it's an imprinting or something like that.

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Yeah, well, ASMR is a very natural thing.

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Like I say, ultimately it's a physical sensation and that will never change.

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The ways of presenting it, interpreting it, the ways of doing ASMR online will be different

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because everyone's perception is different and not everybody actually experiences the

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feeling but they still like ASMR videos so they'll make them in a way that they like

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to listen to them.

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Some people like really fast sound.

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Some people prefer really quiet sound.

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I would suggest that people who actually experience it would more prefer the quieter, calmer sounds.

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But then we're doing this very natural thing on a commercial platform which is run by an

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algorithm.

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So it's not always going to represent it in the way that it is to everybody because there

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are keywords and some people are better looking than others in their thumbnails so they'll

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get more clicks and some people don't have time to upload that often but they might be

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an amazing ASMRtist but they just make one video a month.

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So the numbers and everything...

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Hang on.

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My chair's just collapsed.

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Oh, it happens to me every time.

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We will edit that out.

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You might have to.

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Hang on.

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There we go.

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It's working now.

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Oh dear.

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Hang on.

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It happens.

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I wouldn't mind if you didn't edit it.

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At least we make people laugh.

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What was I saying?

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So you were talking about the different types and the algorithms, how it influences the

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content of ASMR videos.

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Yeah.

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I remember one year when I noticed...

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The first year I noticed that the algorithm was kind of determining which were the more

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popular ASMR videos because of keywords and then the more people make them, the more that

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video is pushed.

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So it became...

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I remember one year it became that hair videos were the main type of ASMR.

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And of course now it's different.

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It changes all the time.

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But the community itself started very, very small and it was the whisper community and

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there were just a few channels and the people who ran the channels were just whispering

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to each other really.

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And it was a small community.

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And then it grew from there and became more popular because people are using the videos

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night after night to fall asleep.

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And then more people would make videos and then money came into it because they were

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more popular and channels were becoming monetized.

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I remember the first couple of years I didn't monetize any videos.

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It took me a while to realize that you could even monetize on YouTube because I've never

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really used the internet before I started YouTube.

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But now it's all different.

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People would start their Patreon before they even make the first video.

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But that's the way the world is.

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Everybody's got to eat and everyone has to work.

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And if you can work doing something like this, then why not?

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It's amazing.

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Of course.

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And yeah, nowadays everyone has a strategy and fantastic marketing skills.

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I mean, the kids these days are growing up knowing how to market themselves.

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And I think that's just incredible.

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I mean, I didn't even know how to put eyeshadow on when I was their age.

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We would literally just take the palette.

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It wasn't even a palette.

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It was just one color.

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Take your finger, go like this, rub it on your eye, off you go.

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Now there's a brush for everything and a color for everything and a palette for everything.

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People are more self-aware these days because of social media.

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But for me, that is like the superficial part.

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What I'm looking for in an ASMR video is that self-affirmation in combination with the trigger.

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And that's something that I can easily find in, for example, your videos.

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I feel like the loving kindness emanates from every video you make.

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And I was wondering, where do you find the energy, that feeling of loving kindness and

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bringing that up at every video?

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I mean, I would not have that big of a reserve of love for videos or for anything really.

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So I was wondering, where do you find that compassion, that kindness for every video

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you make?

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I think it's important to just be yourself.

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And if I wasn't being myself, then I wouldn't be able to do it because it would be an act.

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So it's not always easy because I'm living in the same world as everybody else.

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And there's always something going on to make you feel like, what on earth am I doing here?

276
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Someone's dumped me on the wrong planet.

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But then I realized that we're all going through it together.

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We're all connected.

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And it's important that we all just keep going because if we don't, then more bad things

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will happen.

281
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And we just all need to be the best that we can in order to encourage other people to

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be the best that they can.

283
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,560
And then perhaps we've got a little bit of hope.

284
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So I don't know.

285
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I've always been the person that I am.

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And I just feel like finally I've got a purpose and an avenue to be who I am.

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And I've found somewhere that I can be that person and be accepted.

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Because to be like that in day-to-day life isn't always accepted.

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I've had plenty of relationships, friendships in my life where the way that I am doesn't

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work for instance.

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And so I've found I would have been in the past someone who was kind of a people pleaser,

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a yes person, do for others all the time.

293
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I was taught to be like that from a very young age.

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I grew up in a village and we all helped each other.

295
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That's what we did.

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And then I moved to a big city and I continued to be that person.

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And it was a bit weird because not everybody was like that.

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And I'd find myself in relationships with other people where I was giving more than

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they were and I was doing for them all the time and they were leaning on me.

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And I just felt I thought that that was great that I was doing something lovely but actually

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it was wearing me out.

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So I found a place that I can be who I am and it benefits the maximum amount of people

303
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without extending me too much because what I'm doing is actually being in my garden shed

304
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and just being myself and I'm not physically around everybody's energy enough to feel it

305
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and become exhausted if that makes sense.

306
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Of course.

307
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So it isn't that hard.

308
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,440
It would be harder in a live situation.

309
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I'd find it very, very difficult to be, for instance, a counsellor.

310
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How difficult must that be?

311
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Or a teacher.

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I would find it very difficult to be in a physically social situation like that because

313
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being around everybody else's pain and energy and even happiness and sadness, all the range

314
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:39,800
of feelings I would find exhausting because I would absorb the whole thing.

315
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:46,720
I recognise myself so much in you and in what you've just described.

316
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:57,080
Yeah, you're kind with other people and you give, I think, the expectation that it will

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also trigger compassion of kindness and feeling and generosity in the person to whom you direct

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all of those wholesome feelings.

319
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,080
But sometimes it just doesn't.

320
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,080
Quite the opposite.

321
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:11,080
Yeah.

322
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:22,280
Well, often when you are that person, you end up being attracted to subconsciously or

323
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,160
unconsciously.

324
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,840
And those people are attracted to you because you are a doer.

325
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,720
And there are people who take and take and take a lot, aren't there?

326
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,600
There are lots of different types of people in this world.

327
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And if you're not careful, then you can be surrounded by people who will take from you.

328
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,640
But that's not necessarily their fault either.

329
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,880
They're being enabled.

330
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,640
You're enabling them.

331
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You're not giving them responsibility.

332
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,440
I remember when I went to counselling, I had PTSD and that was one of the reasons why I

333
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,440
found ASMR.

334
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:10,600
And I went to PTSD therapy and my therapist said something which is so simple and but

335
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,480
heaven knows why it didn't occur to me already.

336
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:22,320
She said, but if you go around doing everything for everybody, you're not teaching them to

337
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learn to do it for themselves.

338
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,560
You're stopping them from learning.

339
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,000
You're not doing them a service.

340
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,440
You think you're helping them, but you're not.

341
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:38,080
And then perhaps you start to think to yourself, well, maybe I'm being actually selfish because

342
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I want to give myself this lovely feeling and feel of worth by doing something for someone

343
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:48,480
else.

344
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:54,560
But actually, you're getting this wonderful, good feeling and this this powerful feeling

345
00:26:54,560 --> 00:27:03,320
from being able to do things, but you're not helping them because they're left with the

346
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,680
thing done, but they didn't learn how to do it.

347
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:11,000
So now you've got to do it all again when they need to do it again.

348
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,800
I completely agree.

349
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:18,600
And it reminds me of a saying which goes as follow.

350
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,200
You need to be compassionate, but with wisdom.

351
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,320
You need your wisdom to guide your compassion.

352
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,600
And it's a hard lesson to learn.

353
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:28,600
Yeah.

354
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:29,600
Yeah.

355
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:30,600
Yeah.

356
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,760
So everything's about balance.

357
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,280
It's great to be sensitive and empathic and intuitive.

358
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,840
It's like a superpower, but you need to know how to use it and not exhaust yourself in

359
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:52,720
the meantime, because if you have got this, if you like superpower and you can connect

360
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:59,120
with people on an energetic level, not just people, animals too, with everyone, with your

361
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:06,720
whole surroundings, then in order to be the best person in that scenario, you need to

362
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:15,640
manage your manage how you exude that energy, manage how you behave in that situation so

363
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:22,520
that you don't become exhausted, so that you can continue to manage in that situation.

364
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:29,360
And that just comes with experience, I think, and age.

365
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:36,280
And just be mindful of taking care of yourself in that situation.

366
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:45,600
Talking about veganism is a perfect example of this because you tend to go vegan because

367
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:52,960
a lot of people go vegan, not necessarily because of the diet, but because of the compassion

368
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:53,960
side of things.

369
00:28:53,960 --> 00:29:00,000
And you see all these videos and you are absolutely devastated by all of this material that you've

370
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,000
seen.

371
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,680
And your first instinct is just shout from the rooftops, everybody, what are you doing?

372
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:07,920
You're killing everybody.

373
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,360
Stop it.

374
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,800
And then when you're in social situations, you want to talk about it all the time.

375
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:23,960
But that's not always the cleverest thing to do because you are, you're going crazy

376
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:30,220
about this situation and all these people around you aren't where you are.

377
00:29:30,220 --> 00:29:37,600
So if you just hang back a little bit and just be calm around these people and just

378
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:44,160
speak kindly and drop little hints every now and again, you'll allow them to come to their

379
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:50,440
own conclusion rather than, if you like, doing it for them by telling them what they should

380
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,720
do.

381
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,720
Even if you strongly feel this way.

382
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:57,720
Yeah.

383
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:58,720
Go on.

384
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:12,000
So you mentioned being sensitive and I want to tie it back to ASMR.

385
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:21,120
I guess you need to have that sensitivity in order to be receptive to the feeling of

386
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,080
ASMR to that.

387
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,920
I think the word you use is tingles.

388
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:36,080
But yeah, so what's the profile of someone who's receptive to ASMR?

389
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,600
Well, I've done a lot of live events.

390
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:48,160
There aren't many ASMRtists who've gone and done live in-person situations and I've done

391
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,560
quite a lot of them.

392
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:58,640
So I feel like I've done quite a bit of research on this and it tends to be that the people

393
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:06,440
I meet at these live events are very similar personality to me.

394
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:12,120
In fact, I just feel like I'm surrounded by friends or really good friends all the time.

395
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:18,560
Whenever I go, when I first did the first live event, people were writing comments and

396
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,880
saying to me face to face, what on earth are you doing?

397
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,400
There'll be weird people turning up.

398
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,840
I just looked at them and I thought, why would you say that?

399
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:28,840
I'm not weird.

400
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:29,840
Am I?

401
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:36,840
Do you think I'm weird?

402
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,120
But I just knew it would be fine.

403
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,720
Every single live event and every time I've done anything in person and met people from

404
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:53,360
the ASMR community, they're all just really kind, calm and present and down to earth people

405
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,120
who give the best hugs and have massive smiles on their faces.

406
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:05,960
Another thing, I'll be in a shop and I'm looking at something and I look around at the people

407
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:15,400
in the same shop around me and I can tell who's going to either look at me like I know

408
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:21,240
who you are or come to me and say, you're Emma from Whispers Red.

409
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:27,480
I can tell who it's going to be.

410
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,640
I was thinking about it the other day because it happened in a shop the other day and I

411
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,240
knew it was going to be her.

412
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,400
I knew that she watches ASMR.

413
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:42,800
You could just tell who the ASMR people are is what I'm trying to say.

414
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:48,360
I feel through speaking with people and through all the comments that have come in over the

415
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:56,200
years because I've been doing this for 10 years now, all the ASMRtists that I've met,

416
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:02,080
they would be along the lines of what I suppose what you would call a highly sensitive person,

417
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:07,400
an HSP if you want to put people into categories like that.

418
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:15,480
Just sensitive people, people who aren't just sensitive to sound and light but are intuitive

419
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:26,600
and connected and grounded and really aware on a different level to some others.

420
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:32,880
Perhaps the type of person that would walk into a room and notice when a picture is out

421
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:41,480
isn't straight before anybody else does or someone who would walk into a room and notice

422
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,560
how other people are feeling in that room first.

423
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,200
They would walk into that room and go, that person's really, that person's feeling angry

424
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,240
today and they would spot it.

425
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,960
But there are other personality types who would never notice anything like that and

426
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,480
it takes a whole range of people to make up a world so no one's better than any other.

427
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:09,080
But I just find that people who are receptive to the feeling are more sensitive than others

428
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,200
in that regard.

429
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:13,960
And yeah, they are the best people.

430
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:21,180
I mean, my very best friend, her name is Camille, she's the only one who understands my passion

431
00:34:21,180 --> 00:34:30,240
for ASMR and we often share videos of new ASMR artists we discover or some triggering

432
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:32,480
videos we find.

433
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:41,280
And yeah, we feel like we are in our own bubble with this ASMR universe.

434
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:47,360
And yeah, I can completely relate to the description you have made.

435
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:55,680
And I want to link that with the world of animal rights and animals in general because

436
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,520
two things.

437
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:08,360
One I often felt like being a very sensitive person is comparable to being like an animal,

438
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:17,480
like a cat or a dog, like the sounds you pay attention and you realize that you turned

439
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,600
your head at the same time as your cat or something like that.

440
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:29,040
And also, second thing, I discovered that animals like my company and when I thought

441
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:40,240
about it, the conclusion of my reflection was, oh, they like me because I build a calm

442
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:42,480
environment around myself.

443
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,760
I'm not a loud person.

444
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,560
I'm very mindful of my surroundings.

445
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,880
I'm very mindful of them.

446
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:50,880
And I think they like that.

447
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,680
They like the safety that it provides.

448
00:35:53,680 --> 00:36:02,080
They like that I'm this kind of person and that's why they're attracted to my company.

449
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:09,800
So I wonder, have you ever thought about how being sensitive relates to being an animal

450
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:21,000
lover or caring for animals or having gained the love and trust of the animals of your

451
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:22,000
life?

452
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:35,280
Well, I feel like if you're, as we term it, an HSP, a highly sensitive person, animals

453
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:40,960
are the perfect example of a highly sensitive being.

454
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,720
They communicate on an energetic level.

455
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:48,960
They communicate through micro movements.

456
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,880
They can feel what you're feeling.

457
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:58,960
They can sense what you're thinking, which direction you're going to walk in before you've

458
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,120
even moved anywhere.

459
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:07,840
They're so intuitive on so many different levels, on levels that we can't even understand,

460
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,760
I don't think.

461
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:18,560
And if animals feel safe around you, then you're connected with them.

462
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:27,040
But I feel as if you, if you know, if you feel connected to everything around you, then

463
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:33,600
you're going to relate to animals because they're your family, just like a tree is your

464
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,560
family.

465
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,240
I've heard this story a lot among ASMR people.

466
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:46,320
They would say to me that when they were little, if they had a favorite teddy bear or something,

467
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:53,320
they would actually put human emotions and thoughts into this teddy bear or inanimate

468
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,880
objects.

469
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:07,360
Say for instance, you've got a, this might look, sound weird, but a phone case, a glasses

470
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,040
case.

471
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:16,440
When I was little, I would never take that glasses case and slam it down on the table

472
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:21,320
because I would feel like it would hurt the glasses case.

473
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,960
I know that sounds really odd, but there are so many people who say things like that to

474
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:38,800
me because we innately feel connected to everything around us and the same goes with animals.

475
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:44,120
So it's very easy to love animals and to feel part of the family.

476
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,320
If you, I mean, if you're connected to an inanimate object, you're definitely going

477
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,720
to love animals.

478
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:56,560
There are some people who aren't connected to anything around them and just see everything

479
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,480
as an object, which is quite weird for someone who doesn't.

480
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:07,080
It's like you're a different species almost because you just do not view the world.

481
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,360
You have a completely different perception of the world to that person.

482
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:19,560
But yeah, going back to the original question that animals are so intuitive and we just

483
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:28,160
fit perfectly with them and not just pet animals, but all animals.

484
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:36,920
They have a certain sophisticated intelligence beyond what we can comprehend, I think, sometimes.

485
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:47,960
And, you know, you often, when you express that sensitivity towards animals around you,

486
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:53,840
you have to face the judgment of others who don't have that link, who don't have that

487
00:39:53,840 --> 00:40:01,440
sensitivity and find your relationship with animals ridiculous.

488
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,680
And yeah, that can be a harsh thing to experience.

489
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:13,480
Yeah, I mean, I've experienced it a lot over the past few years, especially because when

490
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:22,840
I decided to open the rescue in Serbia, I'm literally operating in a country where most

491
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,960
people feel like that.

492
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:32,200
You know, just setting up the premises, sorting out the property, dealing with all the contracts

493
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:37,840
and everything, going to go into the solicitors and the notary and all that.

494
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:49,080
So many times I've been in a situation where they're talking about me in Serbian, assuming

495
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:55,000
that the only reason why an English person or any person would come over to Serbia to

496
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:01,520
do something with the animals is because they were trying to make money somehow.

497
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:09,720
And then, of course, I find out because the manager of the sanctuary, the family that

498
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:15,680
live there and take care of the animals, they were very close and people don't expect that

499
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,080
we are that close.

500
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:24,360
So I learn everything that they've been saying in Serbian.

501
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:31,520
Because their perception of animals is so different to ours, and it's not that they're

502
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,080
not good people.

503
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:39,560
It's that they have a complete indifference to animals.

504
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:46,280
They're not connected to everything around them like we are.

505
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:55,600
It's quite difficult to explain, and I'm still trying to figure it all out anyway.

506
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,080
But they're just objects to them.

507
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,280
They're possessions.

508
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:09,400
But I would argue that this is one good reason of opening a sanctuary in Serbia, because

509
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:15,640
this feeling is the default feeling of the people there.

510
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:27,880
A sanctuary is such a rebellious entity in such context, and it's there to also teach

511
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:34,560
them, of course, to help the dogs, the animals, but also to teach them that compassion, to

512
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,600
teach them to make that link with animals.

513
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:38,600
Yeah.

514
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:44,560
To set an example through action is very, very difficult, I'll be honest.

515
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:50,280
So many times I've felt like giving up because it's just not easy.

516
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,920
And to run a charity full stop just isn't easy at all.

517
00:42:54,920 --> 00:43:03,960
But to operate in an environment like that, when I'm not there all the time as well.

518
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,440
So the family that we're very close to that are managing the place and with the animals

519
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,920
24-7, I mean, they've got the greatest hearts.

520
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,240
They're such beautiful people.

521
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:21,400
But we've still had to have the conversations about and set the policies on exactly how

522
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,680
they take care of the animals, because they've grown up with no money at all.

523
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:33,440
They've never been able to afford to neuter an animal or to keep them in the conditions

524
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:34,440
that we've got them in.

525
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,600
They've never been able to afford anything like that.

526
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:42,680
So it's not the one thing that they think of straight away.

527
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:49,440
I took over some heaters for our living space for the dogs back in January.

528
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:54,320
And it took me a while to convince them that they need to actually put them on for more

529
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,400
often than they were, because they were thinking, well, it's going to cost a fortune.

530
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:04,640
And I said, well, yes, but the dogs will freeze.

531
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,920
And they love the dogs.

532
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,280
It's hard for me to explain, because they love the dogs.

533
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:17,320
But they've never lived in a situation where they could afford to heat the dogs.

534
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,520
And their default position is, but we can't afford it.

535
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:27,560
So we still have to have these conversations where we decide exactly how we're going to

536
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:32,380
do things and then make sure they're done.

537
00:44:32,380 --> 00:44:38,640
And then we're dealing with the public and the people that just think, oh, there's a

538
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:39,640
sanctuary there.

539
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,840
We'll just dump the dogs outside the gate.

540
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,600
We'll dump the puppies outside the gate.

541
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:48,600
Or not even that.

542
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:56,320
They just leave them on the road further up.

543
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,280
And the locals who...

544
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,200
We went to pick up a dog.

545
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,560
This guy wanted to get rid of his pointer.

546
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,280
He was about eight years old.

547
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:08,840
And he was in the local village.

548
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,920
And we went to see him.

549
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:15,000
And normally they would take that dog and they would just dump them by a busy road.

550
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,320
So he didn't do that.

551
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:18,840
He contacted us.

552
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,160
So that was a good thing.

553
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,960
But he wanted to get rid of him because he's eight years old.

554
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:24,960
He's had enough of him.

555
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,940
He said he couldn't afford to feed him anymore.

556
00:45:27,940 --> 00:45:31,300
His wife was in hospital, fair enough.

557
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:37,160
But when we went round there, this dog was in such terrible condition, kept in a tiny

558
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:38,920
little cage.

559
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,520
And that didn't need to happen.

560
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,240
Regardless of whether he had money or not, he didn't need to do that because he had a

561
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:51,360
courtyard that the dog could have been in.

562
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:56,680
But he thought that it was fine that the dog was in the cage.

563
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,880
And he had lots of cats around.

564
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:04,720
And of course, whenever I'm around cats, I can't stop touching them.

565
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:09,320
And I'm standing there and these cats are coming towards me.

566
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,560
And so I'm chatting with the cats.

567
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,880
And I picked up one cat and I'm cuddling this cat.

568
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,320
And the guy just turned to me and said, oh, take the cat.

569
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,200
I said, what do you mean?

570
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,380
Just take it.

571
00:46:24,380 --> 00:46:26,000
Because he wanted us to take the dog.

572
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,600
So in his mind, he was being nice to me.

573
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,920
Just have what you want as long as you take the dog.

574
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,740
But I said, no, this is your cat's home.

575
00:46:37,740 --> 00:46:42,640
And all of these cats here, they're your cat's family.

576
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,640
I'm not going to take them.

577
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,880
It was just in his mind, he was being kind.

578
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,440
But in mine, obviously, I'm like, you can't do that.

579
00:46:55,440 --> 00:47:00,360
You can't just give away the cat just like that, not even knowing where the cat's going

580
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,200
to go or what environment they're going to be living in.

581
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:15,240
I've come across these situations that are really strange often when I go there.

582
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:17,440
And it's heartbreaking, really.

583
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:22,080
That's definitely nowhere near the worst situation that there is over there.

584
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,080
That's very tame.

585
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,880
But it's just a small example.

586
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,960
But the way that some people treat animals out there is absolutely disgusting.

587
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:38,400
It's absolutely heartbreaking.

588
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:49,160
And why do you think that they have that insensitivity toward animals?

589
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:56,760
I know that Serbia has a horrible history of war and violence.

590
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:03,400
Maybe this has to do with the way they relate to the world.

591
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:10,760
I know that people make the argument for cultural difference.

592
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,960
So do you have any answers?

593
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:23,400
Well, I can only speak to what I've experienced myself out in Serbia and when I've visited

594
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,840
other countries.

595
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,000
I just believe it's down to economic situations.

596
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,600
It's down to war.

597
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,800
It's down to money.

598
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:39,800
Because naturally, I feel that human beings gravitate towards love and kindness anyway

599
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:41,880
and connection to all things.

600
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,600
If we're in the right environment, that's what we gravitate towards.

601
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:53,080
If we're in an environment of scarcity and we're in fight or flight all the time because

602
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:59,320
we're scared about either being poor or we're in a war situation, then the most vulnerable

603
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,120
in society always suffer.

604
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:10,760
And so if they hadn't been through war, if there was plenty and more to go around, then

605
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,920
animals would be careful more.

606
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:23,000
It's an interesting situation over there because I see that most people have dogs.

607
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:28,160
And it's hard to find the language to explain it.

608
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,320
And as I say, I'm still trying to figure it all out myself because so many people have

609
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:41,480
dogs and they have pets and they, on the face of it, love having animals at least and love

610
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:46,080
being around animals.

611
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:51,760
But their animal status within the family is a lot lower than it would be within our

612
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,280
family, for instance.

613
00:49:54,280 --> 00:50:01,360
So they might have a little dog inside the house who's allowed on the sofas and things.

614
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,320
I've just a little one.

615
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:08,360
But any other dogs would be outside all the time.

616
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:13,520
And quite often they're on a chain.

617
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:18,040
They don't go out walking with them very often, although some do.

618
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:24,080
In the cities, you see people walking with dogs, but they're a particular breed.

619
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:28,640
Any mixed dogs would be seen as a lot lower class and they'd be more likely to be just

620
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:29,640
left.

621
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,080
They don't tend to neuter.

622
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:40,000
I think they believe in sort of a freedom and would feel like that would be controlling

623
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,880
the animal's life.

624
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:49,600
But then when the dog has puppies, then they don't think anything of taking the puppies

625
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,360
and dumping them by a road.

626
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,880
So that's quite odd.

627
00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:03,720
If you feel like animals should be free to breed and live freely, why would you impose

628
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:11,520
your will on the puppies by basically killing them?

629
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,520
That doesn't make sense.

630
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:21,560
Yeah, I don't really know how to talk about it so much because I'm still trying to figure

631
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,920
it out.

632
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,720
It's a difficult situation.

633
00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:37,680
But then there are people who really love animals and try to improve the situation and

634
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:45,000
they open their own rescues.

635
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,960
Then there are people who work in the government pounds who are nice, but then there are people

636
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:56,520
who work in the government pounds who are extremely cruel as well, much like slaughterhouse

637
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,720
workers.

638
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:07,720
Sometimes there are still people who perhaps would come across as compassionate in those

639
00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:13,240
places, but then some people who just are really, really cruel and just really enjoy

640
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:14,240
what they're doing.

641
00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:22,920
There are people in the pounds who are like that, who treat the dogs really, really badly.

642
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:24,360
It's an interesting place.

643
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:33,560
It's full of people who would call themselves animal lovers, but they just don't look after

644
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:38,080
their pets like we would.

645
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:46,680
Why did you decide to open a sanctuary in this place in Serbia?

646
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:47,840
How did it begin?

647
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:54,360
How did the story of Wispouse begin?

648
00:52:54,360 --> 00:53:03,160
I was just finishing off my book about ASMR and the chapters were being edited and coming

649
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,040
back to me and re-edited and all of that.

650
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,600
It was quite a stressful time because it was written so fast.

651
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:15,040
I mean, I hardly had any time to just breathe.

652
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:24,960
And as soon as it was edited, then I was recording the audiobook the day after and then it was

653
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:25,960
released.

654
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:30,640
Sorry to interrupt, but I would highly recommend people to listen to the book.

655
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:36,480
I'm the kind of person who likes to read a book, but for this book, I wanted to listen

656
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:44,320
to it because you're the one narrating the book and you use such a soothing voice and

657
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,320
it's just perfect.

658
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:55,560
I would highly recommend for people to listen to the whole five hours of the book.

659
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:56,560
It's a joy.

660
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:57,560
It's truly a joy.

661
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,560
Is it five hours long?

662
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:04,080
That's crazy.

663
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:13,240
And so whilst all that was going on, friends of ours who we go camping with, we've been

664
00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:17,840
friends with for such a long time, they were going on holiday to Montenegro.

665
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:22,720
And my friend Sarah said, we've got an extra room in our Airbnb.

666
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:23,720
Would you like to come along?

667
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:29,480
And I thought, that'd be just amazing because I haven't organized any breaks this year for

668
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,760
our family and no time off and everything.

669
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,800
And I thought that's job done.

670
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:40,160
So we went with them, never been to Montenegro and it was really lovely.

671
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:44,680
We had loads of fun, but there were dogs everywhere.

672
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:50,480
And don't take me anywhere to where there are dogs and cats roaming around.

673
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:55,000
It's just a disaster because I won't have a holiday.

674
00:54:55,000 --> 00:55:00,280
And we went to the supermarket and there was a dog outside the supermarket and he was really

675
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:07,680
sick and he was walking around the cars, waiting by car doors as if to just ask for someone

676
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:08,680
to take him.

677
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:15,720
He was desperate to get into a car basically and got and leave.

678
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:19,160
And I just couldn't rest.

679
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:31,160
So I fed him obviously and then kept going back every day to see him.

680
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,840
And I just stood outside the supermarket and spoke to people.

681
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:40,120
And I was looking for people who had good English, who could communicate with me and

682
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,560
just had conversations with a few people.

683
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:47,480
And I was basically saying, could you help me take this dog to the vet?

684
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:53,480
And it took a couple of days and eventually this family came towards me and they had amazing

685
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:57,640
English and all the family was together.

686
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,680
And they were petting him.

687
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:04,580
So I went over and spoke to them and they'd noticed him as well and they were looking

688
00:56:04,580 --> 00:56:07,360
out for him too.

689
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:12,920
And I said, would you help me to take him to the vets?

690
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:18,040
They didn't have the money to take him to the vets, but we did.

691
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,480
And so we met the next morning.

692
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:25,680
Thankfully they turned up and that was Dusko and Ivana.

693
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,160
We took him to the vets.

694
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:28,360
We named him Jimmy.

695
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,240
It costs 50 euros to save his life basically.

696
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:32,920
He had severe heartworm.

697
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,680
He may not have pulled through.

698
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:42,880
And through the vets, we found a charity called Stray Aid Montenegro and they took him in.

699
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,560
In foster care till the end of the summer.

700
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:49,920
That cost us another 50 euros.

701
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:57,280
And then after that, Dusko was able to take him to Serbia to go and live with them.

702
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:01,040
And so we just gave them money for food and that kind of thing.

703
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,720
And we just became close.

704
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:06,440
The lockdown started.

705
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,440
Covid was going on.

706
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:12,800
And we just spoke throughout the whole thing.

707
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:18,680
And we'd actually said really early on how amazing would it be to open a sanctuary one

708
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:19,680
day?

709
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:20,680
That's a dream of theirs.

710
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,560
It's always been a dream of mine to help animals in some way.

711
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:25,960
And just one thing led to another.

712
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,880
And we ended up finding some a piece of land in Serbia.

713
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:32,120
Land is very, very cheap out there.

714
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:39,080
And I'd got the advance from my book came through and I just used that to buy the land.

715
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:40,760
And it had a property on it.

716
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:42,600
It was completely dilapidated.

717
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:43,920
But I sent more money.

718
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:49,680
I did extra work, sent more money over to do the place up and they moved into it.

719
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,480
And then we just started building the sanctuary from there.

720
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:59,560
Yeah, it's just kind of one thing led to another really.

721
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:05,840
You know what you said about that Serbian man who thought that you were trying to make

722
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,880
money in some way.

723
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,200
You were actually losing money.

724
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:17,280
Oh, so much of it.

725
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:25,920
Because in one of your videos, you talk about how you wanted to use that money to open an

726
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,320
ASMR retreat.

727
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:33,080
And instead, you decided to use it to save lives.

728
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,400
Yeah, exactly.

729
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:41,440
As I say, one thing just led to another really and the opportunity came along to buy the

730
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:42,440
place.

731
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:51,200
Yeah, it costs way more than I expected it to cost, as these things always do.

732
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,200
Way over budget.

733
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:58,340
And so basically, I've just been working the past few years doing extra work, sponsorships

734
00:58:58,340 --> 00:59:03,720
on my channel and anything that I could do to get extra money to pay for everything.

735
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:10,240
But then, because it took two years to become a registered charity.

736
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:16,280
It was like it took a long time to just to get all the paperwork together and basically

737
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:25,120
convince the UK Charity Commission that it was a good idea for us to be a charity.

738
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,640
Because they don't particularly like.

739
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:35,040
Well, apparently, it's the hardest thing to get registered when you're an animal charity

740
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,320
and even more so overseas.

741
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:45,040
So you really have to do some convincing and just show them as well that the finances are

742
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:46,440
watertight.

743
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:48,440
How does the money go over there?

744
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,080
What exactly is it spent on?

745
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:57,600
How do you deal with your receipts and your accounting?

746
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,640
Everything has to be done properly, which I would want to do anyway, because I want

747
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:06,440
to make sure that anybody who donates, they know exactly where the money's gone.

748
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:10,400
And that's why I wanted to be a registered charity, because your accounts are online

749
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:11,400
every year.

750
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:13,640
They can see where the money's going.

751
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,320
You know, and you have to show receipts for absolutely everything and make sure you get

752
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:24,920
whenever you get quotes in for work, that you've got three quotes in and you've chosen

753
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:31,040
all that all you've you've chosen reputable builders and all of that stuff.

754
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,120
And everything's done above board.

755
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:39,640
So all the money's kept in the UK and then we filter through to a multi currency account.

756
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,160
So it's still kept in the UK really.

757
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:47,080
So because when money is sent over to a country like Serbia, it's harder to keep control over

758
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:48,080
it.

759
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:49,080
So just things like that.

760
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,920
I just had to make sure that I explained to them exactly how we were going to run the

761
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:56,440
charity.

762
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:58,440
So it just took a long time.

763
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:06,040
And yeah, and so now we're just open to volunteers and people to help out more trustees.

764
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:11,480
There's so much work involved in running a charity and most of it's admin as well.

765
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:16,040
And most people don't really want to volunteer for admin work.

766
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:20,800
So but I think we'll manage it eventually.

767
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:29,360
Well, this podcast is devoted to encouraging vegans to take action, to take the extra step

768
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:31,420
to follow your example.

769
01:01:31,420 --> 01:01:33,760
So what can we do?

770
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:38,120
What can listeners do to help you in this project?

771
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:43,640
Well, fundraising is just is always the biggest thing with charities.

772
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:48,080
Every charity, I'm sure would tell you the same thing is all about fundraising because

773
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:51,600
there's never enough money.

774
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:57,680
At the moment, we're taking in dogs that are left by the side of busy roads because they're

775
01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:59,080
the most urgent cases.

776
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:00,720
Quite often, they've already been run over.

777
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:08,400
So they're using three legs and they need operations and they need all of their initial

778
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:09,400
health care.

779
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:17,400
So out in the Balkans, heartworm and I've got a rescue dog here.

780
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:18,400
Do you want to see him?

781
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:19,400
Yes, of course.

782
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:20,400
Come on.

783
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:21,400
This is Trevor.

784
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:22,400
He's so big.

785
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:23,400
He's very big.

786
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:24,400
Hello.

787
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:26,640
Oh, he looks like a Barbie.

788
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:46,240
I think it's the name of the dog breed.

789
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:47,240
I'm not sure.

790
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:49,920
I've got no idea what breed he is.

791
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:54,120
But I found him when he was a puppy.

792
01:02:54,120 --> 01:03:02,280
He'd been left by a busy road and he was living underneath an engine.

793
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:08,840
So they have in the countryside in Serbia, they have phone masts that are powered by

794
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:17,920
engines in the middle of fields to, I guess, to extend the reach of the signal.

795
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:22,760
And he was living underneath it, but he was very small and he's just grown to this big

796
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:23,760
boy.

797
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:28,360
I didn't know how big he was going to get, but because I found him, we've always had

798
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,560
a really close connection.

799
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:35,680
And every time I went back there to Serbia, he would just follow me everywhere.

800
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:41,160
And then I had to leave him and he was like, why are you leaving me?

801
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:48,360
So eventually I managed to work with another charity called Balkan Underdogs, who bring

802
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:53,880
dogs over to the UK and they helped me to transport him over to the UK on one of their

803
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:55,880
transport runs.

804
01:03:55,880 --> 01:04:00,520
Because at the moment we don't have volunteers to do rehoming.

805
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,560
You actually need quite a large team to do rehoming.

806
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:10,360
You need people, obviously, to find the homes, but to check out the homes and then a travel

807
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,980
team to organise the paperwork for travel.

808
01:04:13,980 --> 01:04:22,720
Because Serbia isn't an EU country, it's even more difficult to bring dogs out because you

809
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:24,840
need extra paperwork.

810
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:31,700
Also the UK isn't in the EU anymore, so that's extra paperwork too.

811
01:04:31,700 --> 01:04:37,560
So we're just after volunteers really to get involved and to help with just learn all the

812
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:44,460
transport to get team together to coordinate the whole thing.

813
01:04:44,460 --> 01:04:51,260
The main focus over there is definitely going to be community neutering.

814
01:04:51,260 --> 01:04:56,700
Because what we're realising is that the people in our local areas are those who are allowing

815
01:04:56,700 --> 01:05:01,880
their dogs to reproduce and then dumping the puppies or the litters.

816
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:06,000
Or they're keeping a cute puppy for a while and as soon as they can become naughty because

817
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:11,880
they're not training them and they start chewing the furniture and things or whatever.

818
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,440
Or they're not so cute anymore, they just dump them.

819
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:23,580
So neutering is going to be the biggest thing and it's also not the best thing to be transporting

820
01:05:23,580 --> 01:05:32,520
dogs across countries because every country has their own rehoming issues and their own

821
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:35,080
pounds with dogs in.

822
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:43,480
The UK has a lot of dogs in rescues that need rehoming, especially after Covid because people

823
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:51,160
took puppies, bought puppies and then had to go back to work.

824
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:56,440
So we're really going to have to focus on neutering and neutering programmes within

825
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:59,160
Serbia.

826
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:08,000
We've been raising money to finish the facilities at Whispaw's.

827
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:13,520
So obviously we can take on more dogs and we'd like to build a cattery at some point.

828
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:20,860
I actually envisaged Whispaw's to be not just for dogs and cats but to be an animal sanctuary

829
01:06:20,860 --> 01:06:24,000
which is why I called it an animal sanctuary.

830
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:29,360
But the most urgent problem there at the moment on our doorstep is dogs and cats because they're

831
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:34,760
just everywhere, they're literally outside the gates.

832
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:44,280
So once the facilities are finished or the most urgent facilities, I would like to have

833
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:54,440
some accommodation there so that people can come over and experience Serbia but work with

834
01:06:54,440 --> 01:07:06,480
the dogs and go out and rescues and spend some time kind of like a retreat for humans.

835
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:11,960
It's a very healing experience to go out and take care of animals and take care of their

836
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:14,960
day-to-day needs.

837
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:20,840
To do something outside of yourself for someone else and someone else so deserving is such

838
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:26,160
a healing experience and I think more people really should experience that.

839
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:29,880
It would really help them as well.

840
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:36,240
With my work in ASMR, I meet lots of people who deal with anxiety on a daily basis.

841
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:40,920
At the very least, that would give them some respite to go over and spend some time and

842
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:45,960
just work with the animals.

843
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:54,040
Because animals are healers and they teach us so much and it would just be lovely to

844
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:55,560
provide that for people too.

845
01:07:55,560 --> 01:08:05,200
So I'd like to either have a couple of caravans or we could build some cabins, something like

846
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:08,560
that for people to stay in.

847
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:15,640
Because I'm finding that as a charity, it's quite...

848
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:19,880
I don't know whether this is true but I feel sometimes that it's quite tiresome for people

849
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:24,560
to be always asking for donations.

850
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:31,520
When you're there and you're in the situation, you can see how desperate it is.

851
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:36,840
But when you're on the other end of social media and it's a charity just asking you for

852
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:40,680
donations, you don't actually see...

853
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:44,040
I know that we share posts and things but unless you're there, you don't really see

854
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:45,520
how desperate it is.

855
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:50,960
If you were there, a lot of people would go, just take all the money because we need to

856
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:57,960
deal with this situation because it's really stressful.

857
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:02,440
I don't always want to show how stressful it is because it upsets people and people

858
01:09:02,440 --> 01:09:06,320
don't want to follow your social media if you're going to stress them out all the time

859
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:07,320
either.

860
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:17,560
It's very difficult to balance how you communicate what's going on over there with people.

861
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:25,440
It would be great to have a way to raise money through renting out accommodation, for instance,

862
01:09:25,440 --> 01:09:29,080
and offering a place for someone to stay so that we could bring some money in for the

863
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:36,020
charity but also allow people to see what's going on and attract volunteers to do fundraising

864
01:09:36,020 --> 01:09:37,760
events and things like that.

865
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:43,520
Yeah, I've gone off on a tangent but I'm just trying to escape.

866
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:48,640
It's all very interesting and I actually work in fundraising.

867
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:56,640
I fundraise for all sorts of nonprofits and what I always tell the nonprofits that I'm

868
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:01,360
advising is you're actually not begging for money.

869
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:03,480
I hate that word.

870
01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:10,600
You're actually giving the opportunity for people to make a gift because making a gift

871
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:12,040
is something pleasant.

872
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:16,320
It's something that brings a lot of meaning in one's life.

873
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:27,280
It's something that has a joy to giving and being able to offer people that opportunity

874
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:36,400
to practice giving, to experience that joy is a gift in of itself.

875
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:41,240
I feel that way as someone who is a donor.

876
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:49,000
When I give to a charity, I feel grateful I'm able to do that.

877
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:50,980
I'm sure you feel the same way.

878
01:10:50,980 --> 01:10:57,440
You felt the same way when you spent the money you spent on building the sanctuary.

879
01:10:57,440 --> 01:11:01,960
Yeah, it's been very, very difficult.

880
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:09,480
I have had doubts every now and again thinking, have I done the right thing?

881
01:11:09,480 --> 01:11:14,240
Could I have put this money into the same situation but in a different way?

882
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:16,120
Would that have helped?

883
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:20,400
But there's no right or wrong way to do it really.

884
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:24,440
You just have to follow the opportunities as they come along.

885
01:11:24,440 --> 01:11:32,040
I do think in the long term, it will have been the best option to actually have invested

886
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:39,180
that money in buying an actual sanctuary rather than sending the money over there to support

887
01:11:39,180 --> 01:11:44,520
another rescue that was there.

888
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:50,560
Because this way, we have full control over the outcomes for the animals.

889
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:58,720
We are following every single step of the way and making sure that every policy is followed.

890
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:05,480
Every dog that goes through those gates has the best healthcare that they can possibly

891
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:09,800
get because they're ours.

892
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:13,720
We're not just sending money and hoping that it goes to the right place.

893
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:21,480
We are doing it ourselves from every step, which I think is really important.

894
01:12:21,480 --> 01:12:22,960
Also you're vegan.

895
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:26,880
For me, that's the most important thing because I know your values.

896
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:34,240
I know that you understand the relationship between humans and animals and that your vegan

897
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:43,160
values will direct your efforts in regard to the sanctuary and how you care for animals.

898
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:52,320
There's a big difference between initiatives for animal welfare led by non-vegans and vegans.

899
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:54,040
It's a whole other world.

900
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:56,040
It's a whole other game.

901
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:59,200
I completely agree.

902
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:07,400
That mentality is in every policy for the charity.

903
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:12,900
It makes a difference to every single step of the way for the dogs.

904
01:13:12,900 --> 01:13:17,200
Even down to the way that I communicate with Dushka and Ivana over there, I say to them,

905
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:20,360
look, these animals are your children.

906
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:26,760
This is how you take care of them.

907
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:32,360
Like I said before, they are such great people and they've got beautiful hearts.

908
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:38,000
I knew from the moment I met them and from every interaction I had with them that this

909
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:41,960
would work, that they'd be great managers there.

910
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:49,640
But like I say, I'm bringing my values into the way that they manage the place.

911
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:53,920
The trustees of the charity have the same mentality as well.

912
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:57,240
The future trustees will have that same mentality.

913
01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:03,600
That will show in every policy and ultimately every outcome for the dogs.

914
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:13,400
It's so easy as well to open this kind of sanctuary basically and just fill it with

915
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:14,400
animals.

916
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:21,360
We could go to a government shelter tomorrow and get over 100 dogs straight away.

917
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:29,480
But that would mean that the living space, that the quality of life for the dogs that

918
01:14:29,480 --> 01:14:32,880
are in the sanctuary would be drastically lowered.

919
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:36,400
So it's a really heartbreaking situation.

920
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:42,320
It's a very, very difficult thing to manage.

921
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:48,160
And everyone I've spoken to who's run any kind of animal charity has told me that it's

922
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:52,860
best to do it on a smaller scale, but do a really good job for each animal.

923
01:14:52,860 --> 01:15:00,560
But how awful is that because you miss out so many others as well?

924
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:03,640
It's a very difficult thing to do.

925
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:09,400
And we all have these dreams of taking care of animals and having a sanctuary one day

926
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:10,400
and doing it.

927
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:14,400
We all have these dreams, but the reality of it is much harder than we expect.

928
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:20,920
But it can become easier with more people being involved.

929
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:27,840
And another thing I would say is that since I've started this, whenever I'm out and about

930
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:35,080
in town doing my chores and things, and I'll tell people about it, because in England we

931
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:41,040
always chat in shops and we tell everything to everybody.

932
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:44,760
Or I'll be speaking to someone online or whatever.

933
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,640
And they'll say to me, I'll tell them what I'm doing and they'll say, oh, I could never

934
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:52,000
do that.

935
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:54,280
And I say, well, why do you think you could never do it?

936
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:59,920
And they say, well, because I look at those videos and it's too heartbreaking when you

937
01:15:59,920 --> 01:16:01,320
see a rescue video.

938
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:04,360
And so I could never do it.

939
01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:11,600
And one thing I have found and I can say with absolute certainty is that you could do it

940
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:17,080
because that feeling of helplessness that you have when you're watching a video, when

941
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:24,640
you're in that situation, in reality, taking that dog, all of those feelings are gone because

942
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:31,160
you are acting, you are doing something, you are completely healing any of those feelings

943
01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:34,800
that you would have had by doing it.

944
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:42,000
And it's such an amazing feeling to save a life, that you have the power to do that.

945
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:46,880
You can walk, you can stop that car, you can stop your car, you can get out of the car

946
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:50,760
and you can pick up that dog that's on the side of the road and you can take them back

947
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:55,120
and take them to the vets and everything and give them everything that they need.

948
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:56,520
That's such an amazing feeling.

949
01:16:56,520 --> 01:17:00,640
It's not like watching the videos.

950
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:05,480
So I would say to anybody who has that feeling that they would find it hard or that they

951
01:17:05,480 --> 01:17:07,640
couldn't do it, you definitely could.

952
01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:12,840
I can tell you, if I can do it, then you could do it.

953
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:20,440
That's a very empowering message and a beautiful invitation for people.

954
01:17:20,440 --> 01:17:29,880
And the main reason why I love this initiative, why I love Wisp Out, because it's the embodiment

955
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:31,640
of hope.

956
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:37,520
You have this desert of animal exploitation, which is Serbia.

957
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:46,120
And in the middle of that desert, you have an oasis of compassion and love and kindness

958
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:50,200
towards all animals.

959
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:57,680
It's so beautiful when you contemplate on that, on how such a beautiful thing could

960
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:04,920
rise in such an ugly place in terms of animal exploitation.

961
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:10,280
Yeah, we've got a long way to go.

962
01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:19,080
But each, I'd say every few months, the facilities are improving.

963
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:20,800
We're learning more.

964
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:24,160
The animals' lives are improving.

965
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:26,880
And the word is getting out there about what we're doing.

966
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:30,360
We're attracting more help.

967
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:38,440
And slowly, slowly, it is becoming what you say, an oasis.

968
01:18:38,440 --> 01:18:44,240
And I've got so many amazing visions for the place.

969
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:45,880
Because it's a beautiful place.

970
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:47,600
Serbia is beautiful.

971
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:52,680
And where we have our sanctuary is a beautiful setting in the countryside.

972
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:55,520
And the sunsets are absolutely stunning.

973
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:58,080
It's so strange to be in this beautiful place.

974
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:03,160
And when you go to the cities, the buildings are incredible.

975
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:04,160
And everything's rackier.

976
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:07,400
And everything's, though, come and have a drink with us.

977
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:10,440
And everybody's happy and nice people.

978
01:19:10,440 --> 01:19:13,560
But then you've got this situation with the animals.

979
01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:18,240
It's quite shocking to be going back to what I said before.

980
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:19,840
I'm still trying to work it out.

981
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:22,680
It's so odd to me.

982
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:30,560
But whenever I go there, I'm just filled with so much hope because I see how amazing the

983
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:32,240
place is going to be.

984
01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:37,640
And fast forward a few years' time, it's going to be just gorgeous.

985
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:42,480
And the dogs that are there now are really happy.

986
01:19:42,480 --> 01:19:43,480
They live outside.

987
01:19:43,480 --> 01:19:47,320
But we've got a big barn with heaters in.

988
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:50,720
And they sleep in there.

989
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:53,600
And the winters are quite harsh.

990
01:19:53,600 --> 01:19:56,000
But we've got the heaters now.

991
01:19:56,000 --> 01:20:00,040
But in the summer, the weather's so amazing out there.

992
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:05,560
And they've got beds and blankets and all those things that you would expect that you

993
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:07,960
would have to take care of the dogs.

994
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:11,640
They've got all those luxuries, all those comforts.

995
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:14,360
But they still choose to sleep outside.

996
01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:15,960
And you'll walk around.

997
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:20,680
And there's a dog sleeping in a bush all night.

998
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:21,680
And they're happy.

999
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:25,560
They've got all this land to run around in.

1000
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:28,280
And they play together.

1001
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:29,840
They play fight.

1002
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:35,880
They do their rounds around the perimeter.

1003
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:40,720
To them, they're in a great place.

1004
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:44,440
But then as the facilities improve, they'll be in an even greater place.

1005
01:20:44,440 --> 01:20:51,520
And then hopefully, the dogs that we have will be able to get homes for and send them

1006
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:53,480
to different countries, hopefully.

1007
01:20:53,480 --> 01:20:57,520
We have actually rehomed some of our dogs locally, believe it or not.

1008
01:20:57,520 --> 01:20:59,720
We found family members.

1009
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:05,280
And we found kind families around that have taken them.

1010
01:21:05,280 --> 01:21:06,680
And they've got good lives.

1011
01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:09,200
They're not chained up or anything like that.

1012
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:10,600
They're in a family.

1013
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:13,640
So things are improving.

1014
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:18,760
And one thing I will say about Serbia is that they've adopted a new animal welfare policy

1015
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:20,880
law.

1016
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:24,560
That came into force 2019.

1017
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:28,800
It's not particularly enforced as yet.

1018
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:35,160
But it's a decent animal rights law.

1019
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:37,520
So the framework is in place.

1020
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:41,720
So it's just going to take time for things to improve.

1021
01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:45,880
One thing that we're going to do is work with the local community as much as we possibly

1022
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:47,680
can get through to them.

1023
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:52,920
We'll be asking them to neuter their animals.

1024
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:59,920
We'll be offering to do it for them even.

1025
01:21:59,920 --> 01:22:05,760
And just to bring down the amount of dogs that are dumped.

1026
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:10,520
And just through those conversations that we have with them, we'll be just giving them

1027
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:15,960
a different idea, a different perception, perhaps, hopefully.

1028
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:18,920
And just get used to them thinking that it's a good idea to do.

1029
01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:22,880
Because once they've seen that their dog's been neutered and they're not producing, they'll

1030
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:26,520
be like, oh, this is actually quite good.

1031
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:29,280
It's just not something they considered spending money on before.

1032
01:22:29,280 --> 01:22:32,400
But if it's free, then they'll probably go for it.

1033
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:38,880
We'll do as much as we can to help the local community.

1034
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:40,840
Amazing.

1035
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:49,600
Emma, I think we covered enough grounds on the topic.

1036
01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:55,000
Did you want to add something before we end this conversation?

1037
01:22:55,000 --> 01:23:02,280
I just ask people if they would like to get involved, then they can email me at info at

1038
01:23:02,280 --> 01:23:10,720
wispaws.org, W-H-I-S-P-A-W-S dot org.

1039
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:13,640
And the website is wispaws.org.

1040
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:19,480
We're on social media, wispaws underscore rescue.

1041
01:23:19,480 --> 01:23:22,220
Like I say, we need a travel team.

1042
01:23:22,220 --> 01:23:27,040
We need a rehoming team.

1043
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:31,200
People to take care of different bits of admin.

1044
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:36,320
And the more people that are on these jobs, the less work it is for everybody.

1045
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:43,880
Fundraising is a massive, massive area that needs extra help.

1046
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:51,120
So anyone that can help with fundraising at any time with anything would be just absolutely

1047
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:52,360
amazing.

1048
01:23:52,360 --> 01:24:02,480
I'm extremely open about what needs doing, how much money we need to do it, where the

1049
01:24:02,480 --> 01:24:05,520
money's going.

1050
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:07,520
Very transparent about all of that stuff.

1051
01:24:07,520 --> 01:24:12,280
I think it's very, very important that people know exactly where that money's going.

1052
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:19,960
So yeah, I'm working on just lists of things that need doing and how much they're going

1053
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:21,200
to cost.

1054
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:24,680
And then once they're done, we show that the work's been done and all of that.

1055
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:28,880
And then obviously people could come and visit and get involved as well.

1056
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:33,560
And all of the details, the references you gave will be available in the description

1057
01:24:33,560 --> 01:24:38,040
below for people to see.

1058
01:24:38,040 --> 01:24:41,440
Emma, this has been a pleasure.

1059
01:24:41,440 --> 01:24:49,380
This has been such an inspiring conversation and I hope, really hope the message gets across.

1060
01:24:49,380 --> 01:24:54,840
Thank you so much for having been a guest on the show and for having answered my questions.

1061
01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:55,840
Thanks so much for having me.

1062
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:58,280
It's been really, really lovely to speak with you.

1063
01:24:58,280 --> 01:24:59,280
Thanks.

1064
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:00,440
Thank you everyone for listening.

1065
01:25:00,440 --> 01:25:05,000
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

1066
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:07,960
Let's encourage more people to take action.

1067
01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:23,720
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.