Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.
Today we are going to explore the link between ASMR and animal rights.
About 7 years ago, one of my all time favorite ASMR artists, WhispersRed, also known as Emma,
posted a video called ASMR Dog Spun and Massage.
And then 4 years ago, a video called ASMR Veterinary Checkup.
And in both of these videos, she's caring for a dog in a fantasy place called Wispows.
So imagine my confusion and surprise when in 2021 she announced that Wispows was now
a real place, a sanctuary for dogs located in Serbia.
I was so happy to learn the news and it just increased my admiration for WhispersRed, whose
love for animals shines brightly through her work.
Emma, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for being here.
Oh, thank you so much for asking me on.
That's such a nice introduction.
Thank you.
Of course.
I want to start by talking about ASMR because it is at the heart of everything you do.
And I think you're the most knowledgeable person there is on this topic.
Full stop.
I don't know about anyone else who has thought so deeply about ASMR.
In fact, you literally wrote the book on the topic.
It is called Unwind Your Mind.
And there you make the point that ASMR is much more complex, profound and multidimensional
than we think.
So my first question for you is, what's so special about ASMR?
It's a form of healing for sure.
And healing for me is something that puts us into a state of calm and presence so that
our bodies can heal themselves.
I think we are all healers of ourselves and each other.
ASMR is a way to become still.
Specifically for people who experience the ASMR tingle sensation.
It's an actual physical sensation.
There are people that make videos to give the sensation.
And so ASMR is kind of perceived as a video or a type of video, but it's actually a physical
sensation and it's like a tingly feeling that starts in the crown of your head and works
its way down the back of your head and down your spine.
And if you experience it, you've had it all your life basically.
And I can't remember a time when I didn't feel it.
And people say, when did you first feel it?
Well, I don't know when I first felt it because I've always felt it.
So I was probably feeling it, you know, as a tiny baby.
And when we feel this feeling, we just become so still and focused.
One of my favourite triggers for the feeling would have been when I was little watching
my dad do building work because he was a builder.
And I would just sit and watch him build walls and move his tools around.
And I was so fixated on the movements and the progress of the wall and all of the details
of it that I would just sit there, especially if, you know, being outside, I could hear
the birds and the breeze and I would just feel this feeling.
I would feel it when people played with my hair.
I would ask my siblings to draw letters on my back.
And so it's just a really calm, calm, focused feeling, but with this lovely, tingly feeling
in your head.
And when we feel still and when we feel calm, we're in that state where, well, we're certainly
not in fight or flight mode.
So we're not feeling anxious.
We're just feeling super calm.
And that's very healing for us.
So I would suggest that ASMR is along the same lines of other healing modalities and
complementary therapies.
What you're pointing to is a type of mindfulness, I guess.
And it's so underrated.
I mean, when I look around and even at my life, it's so hard to just put down the cell
phone and just pay attention to what's happening around you because, I mean, I'm going to be
honest, it feels so boring.
Your environment feels so boring.
You want to just skip or add some spice to your life and compared to the entertainment
out there, it's just, it doesn't compete.
It's hard to just sit there and look at the landscape or something like that.
So what do you say to people who struggle with that?
Well, it's quite sad really, isn't it?
Because there's so much stimulation around these days through the phone and it's just
on tap, isn't it?
Well, I grew up without the internet and there were only four channels on the TV when I was
little and programs couldn't be recorded and you couldn't just stream them whenever you
wanted.
You had to be there sitting down watching at the right time that the program was on.
So everything moved slower and as children, we were more able to self-soothe with the
sounds that were around us and the visuals that were just around us and we were more
fulfilled by our surroundings.
So I feel very lucky to have grown up in that society, if you like.
And so I see my own children now and they are sometimes overwhelmed with stimulation.
And so it's a matter of bringing that down, limiting the amount of time on the screens,
sitting down and having conversations, pointing out as perhaps you would say mundane things
about our environment.
But there are sounds everywhere and there's also a rise in anxiety, have you noticed,
with younger people as well?
So perhaps it's time to just bring that down and maybe change the language.
It's not boring.
It's actually very interesting if you look and if you listen and if you just give it
time and listen to yourself.
I mean, even listening to the sounds inside your own body, we don't do that even.
Sit in a quiet room and listen to your own body.
There's sound everywhere.
And you know, when we sit in stillness as well, we have to deal with things that are
going on in our mind.
But that's a really good thing.
It's very difficult to do and it's easy to escape from these days.
But we ought to do that.
We ought to process things in our mind and think for ourselves and just take a moment
to think something through that we might have heard someone say during the day and think,
well, what do I think about that?
Does that make sense to me?
Or, you know, we just need to have time to process our surroundings a little bit more.
And you know, I feel a little bit guilty because I'm part of the problem.
I'm creating a podcast and people are always listening to some podcasts while doing something
else.
They're distracted.
Yeah, there is a great benefit to being more mindful and silencing your mind and paying
attention to your surroundings.
But there's also the other part that plays into destroying your mental health, which
is the bad thoughts that you might have.
So there is the distraction part and then there is the mental dialogue that is often
negative in people.
And I feel like ASMR, in addition of encouraging people to seek the quiet, seek the more calm
state, there is also this loving kindness discourse that comes with it.
So can you speak about that?
Well, there's a lot of positive affirmation in ASMR videos.
So yeah, we do have negative talk within us, don't we?
But that's part of the process.
And that's something that we do need to be in that moment so that we can process.
Perhaps it's something to do with personal responsibility and taking responsibility for
what we take in here.
Obviously, what we take in there, we think about that.
But what we take in here is important too and in here.
And you said before about being part of the problem.
Well, you're talking about important subjects and you're allowing people that time to think
about the things that have been said in your podcast.
So it's a choice, isn't it?
We choose to listen to a certain thing.
And then if we give ourselves time to think about it afterwards, what do I think about
that?
Did I agree with this?
Did I agree with that?
Are there any parts of that podcast that I could take into my daily life and perhaps
I could adopt that way of being?
So I don't know whether it's not about being part of the problem.
It's that we all have a responsibility to decide what goes in and what we press play
on and not.
Whether we just flick through TikTok or we spend that time to listen to something that's
going to nourish our mind.
And I like to do cooking with earphones in and listen to something or music, but that's
a choice for me.
And another choice again is to have some time later where perhaps I'm taking my makeup off
at night and I don't have anything on and I'm just using that time to be quiet.
So it's just about personal responsibility, I think.
Yeah, I think it's part of my inner negative discourse about myself.
Well, we all do that.
We all do that.
Oh, yeah.
For someone who is listening and who is not very familiar with ASMR, what video you have
made in the past would you recommend for that person to watch as an introduction to the
ASMR world?
Well, first of all, ASMR isn't for everybody and not everybody experiences the feeling
and the videos are made to give the feeling in the viewer.
If they don't give the feeling, quite often they give just pure relaxation and calm because
the sounds are very slow and very gentle.
The voice is very gentle and soft.
I would speak a lot quieter than I'm speaking now to you in a video and sometimes I would
whisper.
So I wouldn't suggest any particular one video for someone.
I would suggest that they think, oh, do I feel that feeling?
Yes or no?
If it's a no, then what kind of sounds do I like?
What kind of sounds make me feel calm?
Is there anything that I would like to listen to in the background when I'm going to sleep
that would help me feel calm?
That's how I found ASMR because I was looking for rainforest sounds to help me fall asleep
and I ended up finding ASMR videos and then I realized that there was a name for this
feeling I'd always had.
So yeah, I would just suggest having a think about which sounds make you feel nice and
are there any sounds that you experienced in your childhood that you liked or any physical
sensations, anything, you know, any kind of nurturing sensation.
And then just go in with an open mind, type in ASMR and see what comes up.
Keep going.
Don't necessarily go for what comes up first because it might be something that's not ASMR.
It's not everything labeled ASMR actually is ASMR.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I'm quite old school in the way that I do things.
I'm quite kind of motherly and calm and I don't tend to follow the algorithm so much.
So I don't tend to do videos that are the highest search terms.
I have been...
Do strange things for views if you get what I'm saying.
I have been listening to ASMR for more than eight years now.
I think maybe nine years.
It started at my last year of high school.
It was a storm of anxiety because of final exams, because I had to choose a career and
what to study in college.
And that's when I looked up some videos about relaxation on YouTube and then found an ASMR
video and I was just hooked since that moment.
But yeah, I don't recognize...
It's not the same as nine years ago right now what's coming up as ASMR videos.
And it doesn't feel as good or familiar to me than what I was used to.
And I always thought that maybe it's an imprinting or something like that.
Yeah, well, ASMR is a very natural thing.
Like I say, ultimately it's a physical sensation and that will never change.
The ways of presenting it, interpreting it, the ways of doing ASMR online will be different
because everyone's perception is different and not everybody actually experiences the
feeling but they still like ASMR videos so they'll make them in a way that they like
to listen to them.
Some people like really fast sound.
Some people prefer really quiet sound.
I would suggest that people who actually experience it would more prefer the quieter, calmer sounds.
But then we're doing this very natural thing on a commercial platform which is run by an
algorithm.
So it's not always going to represent it in the way that it is to everybody because there
are keywords and some people are better looking than others in their thumbnails so they'll
get more clicks and some people don't have time to upload that often but they might be
an amazing ASMRtist but they just make one video a month.
So the numbers and everything...
Hang on.
My chair's just collapsed.
Oh, it happens to me every time.
We will edit that out.
You might have to.
Hang on.
There we go.
It's working now.
Oh dear.
Hang on.
It happens.
I wouldn't mind if you didn't edit it.
At least we make people laugh.
What was I saying?
So you were talking about the different types and the algorithms, how it influences the
content of ASMR videos.
Yeah.
I remember one year when I noticed...
The first year I noticed that the algorithm was kind of determining which were the more
popular ASMR videos because of keywords and then the more people make them, the more that
video is pushed.
So it became...
I remember one year it became that hair videos were the main type of ASMR.
And of course now it's different.
It changes all the time.
But the community itself started very, very small and it was the whisper community and
there were just a few channels and the people who ran the channels were just whispering
to each other really.
And it was a small community.
And then it grew from there and became more popular because people are using the videos
night after night to fall asleep.
And then more people would make videos and then money came into it because they were
more popular and channels were becoming monetized.
I remember the first couple of years I didn't monetize any videos.
It took me a while to realize that you could even monetize on YouTube because I've never
really used the internet before I started YouTube.
But now it's all different.
People would start their Patreon before they even make the first video.
But that's the way the world is.
Everybody's got to eat and everyone has to work.
And if you can work doing something like this, then why not?
It's amazing.
Of course.
And yeah, nowadays everyone has a strategy and fantastic marketing skills.
I mean, the kids these days are growing up knowing how to market themselves.
And I think that's just incredible.
I mean, I didn't even know how to put eyeshadow on when I was their age.
We would literally just take the palette.
It wasn't even a palette.
It was just one color.
Take your finger, go like this, rub it on your eye, off you go.
Now there's a brush for everything and a color for everything and a palette for everything.
People are more self-aware these days because of social media.
But for me, that is like the superficial part.
What I'm looking for in an ASMR video is that self-affirmation in combination with the trigger.
And that's something that I can easily find in, for example, your videos.
I feel like the loving kindness emanates from every video you make.
And I was wondering, where do you find the energy, that feeling of loving kindness and
bringing that up at every video?
I mean, I would not have that big of a reserve of love for videos or for anything really.
So I was wondering, where do you find that compassion, that kindness for every video
you make?
I think it's important to just be yourself.
And if I wasn't being myself, then I wouldn't be able to do it because it would be an act.
So it's not always easy because I'm living in the same world as everybody else.
And there's always something going on to make you feel like, what on earth am I doing here?
Someone's dumped me on the wrong planet.
But then I realized that we're all going through it together.
We're all connected.
And it's important that we all just keep going because if we don't, then more bad things
will happen.
And we just all need to be the best that we can in order to encourage other people to
be the best that they can.
And then perhaps we've got a little bit of hope.
So I don't know.
I've always been the person that I am.
And I just feel like finally I've got a purpose and an avenue to be who I am.
And I've found somewhere that I can be that person and be accepted.
Because to be like that in day-to-day life isn't always accepted.
I've had plenty of relationships, friendships in my life where the way that I am doesn't
work for instance.
And so I've found I would have been in the past someone who was kind of a people pleaser,
a yes person, do for others all the time.
I was taught to be like that from a very young age.
I grew up in a village and we all helped each other.
That's what we did.
And then I moved to a big city and I continued to be that person.
And it was a bit weird because not everybody was like that.
And I'd find myself in relationships with other people where I was giving more than
they were and I was doing for them all the time and they were leaning on me.
And I just felt I thought that that was great that I was doing something lovely but actually
it was wearing me out.
So I found a place that I can be who I am and it benefits the maximum amount of people
without extending me too much because what I'm doing is actually being in my garden shed
and just being myself and I'm not physically around everybody's energy enough to feel it
and become exhausted if that makes sense.
Of course.
So it isn't that hard.
It would be harder in a live situation.
I'd find it very, very difficult to be, for instance, a counsellor.
How difficult must that be?
Or a teacher.
I would find it very difficult to be in a physically social situation like that because
being around everybody else's pain and energy and even happiness and sadness, all the range
of feelings I would find exhausting because I would absorb the whole thing.
I recognise myself so much in you and in what you've just described.
Yeah, you're kind with other people and you give, I think, the expectation that it will
also trigger compassion of kindness and feeling and generosity in the person to whom you direct
all of those wholesome feelings.
But sometimes it just doesn't.
Quite the opposite.
Yeah.
Well, often when you are that person, you end up being attracted to subconsciously or
unconsciously.
And those people are attracted to you because you are a doer.
And there are people who take and take and take a lot, aren't there?
There are lots of different types of people in this world.
And if you're not careful, then you can be surrounded by people who will take from you.
But that's not necessarily their fault either.
They're being enabled.
You're enabling them.
You're not giving them responsibility.
I remember when I went to counselling, I had PTSD and that was one of the reasons why I
found ASMR.
And I went to PTSD therapy and my therapist said something which is so simple and but
heaven knows why it didn't occur to me already.
She said, but if you go around doing everything for everybody, you're not teaching them to
learn to do it for themselves.
You're stopping them from learning.
You're not doing them a service.
You think you're helping them, but you're not.
And then perhaps you start to think to yourself, well, maybe I'm being actually selfish because
I want to give myself this lovely feeling and feel of worth by doing something for someone
else.
But actually, you're getting this wonderful, good feeling and this this powerful feeling
from being able to do things, but you're not helping them because they're left with the
thing done, but they didn't learn how to do it.
So now you've got to do it all again when they need to do it again.
I completely agree.
And it reminds me of a saying which goes as follow.
You need to be compassionate, but with wisdom.
You need your wisdom to guide your compassion.
And it's a hard lesson to learn.
Yeah.
So everything's about balance.
It's great to be sensitive and empathic and intuitive.
It's like a superpower, but you need to know how to use it and not exhaust yourself in
the meantime, because if you have got this, if you like superpower and you can connect
with people on an energetic level, not just people, animals too, with everyone, with your
whole surroundings, then in order to be the best person in that scenario, you need to
manage your manage how you exude that energy, manage how you behave in that situation so
that you don't become exhausted, so that you can continue to manage in that situation.
And that just comes with experience, I think, and age.
And just be mindful of taking care of yourself in that situation.
Talking about veganism is a perfect example of this because you tend to go vegan because
a lot of people go vegan, not necessarily because of the diet, but because of the compassion
side of things.
And you see all these videos and you are absolutely devastated by all of this material that you've
seen.
And your first instinct is just shout from the rooftops, everybody, what are you doing?
You're killing everybody.
Stop it.
And then when you're in social situations, you want to talk about it all the time.
But that's not always the cleverest thing to do because you are, you're going crazy
about this situation and all these people around you aren't where you are.
So if you just hang back a little bit and just be calm around these people and just
speak kindly and drop little hints every now and again, you'll allow them to come to their
own conclusion rather than, if you like, doing it for them by telling them what they should
do.
Even if you strongly feel this way.
Yeah.
Go on.
So you mentioned being sensitive and I want to tie it back to ASMR.
I guess you need to have that sensitivity in order to be receptive to the feeling of
ASMR to that.
I think the word you use is tingles.
But yeah, so what's the profile of someone who's receptive to ASMR?
Well, I've done a lot of live events.
There aren't many ASMRtists who've gone and done live in-person situations and I've done
quite a lot of them.
So I feel like I've done quite a bit of research on this and it tends to be that the people
I meet at these live events are very similar personality to me.
In fact, I just feel like I'm surrounded by friends or really good friends all the time.
Whenever I go, when I first did the first live event, people were writing comments and
saying to me face to face, what on earth are you doing?
There'll be weird people turning up.
I just looked at them and I thought, why would you say that?
I'm not weird.
Am I?
Do you think I'm weird?
But I just knew it would be fine.
Every single live event and every time I've done anything in person and met people from
the ASMR community, they're all just really kind, calm and present and down to earth people
who give the best hugs and have massive smiles on their faces.
Another thing, I'll be in a shop and I'm looking at something and I look around at the people
in the same shop around me and I can tell who's going to either look at me like I know
who you are or come to me and say, you're Emma from Whispers Red.
I can tell who it's going to be.
I was thinking about it the other day because it happened in a shop the other day and I
knew it was going to be her.
I knew that she watches ASMR.
You could just tell who the ASMR people are is what I'm trying to say.
I feel through speaking with people and through all the comments that have come in over the
years because I've been doing this for 10 years now, all the ASMRtists that I've met,
they would be along the lines of what I suppose what you would call a highly sensitive person,
an HSP if you want to put people into categories like that.
Just sensitive people, people who aren't just sensitive to sound and light but are intuitive
and connected and grounded and really aware on a different level to some others.
Perhaps the type of person that would walk into a room and notice when a picture is out
isn't straight before anybody else does or someone who would walk into a room and notice
how other people are feeling in that room first.
They would walk into that room and go, that person's really, that person's feeling angry
today and they would spot it.
But there are other personality types who would never notice anything like that and
it takes a whole range of people to make up a world so no one's better than any other.
But I just find that people who are receptive to the feeling are more sensitive than others
in that regard.
And yeah, they are the best people.
I mean, my very best friend, her name is Camille, she's the only one who understands my passion
for ASMR and we often share videos of new ASMR artists we discover or some triggering
videos we find.
And yeah, we feel like we are in our own bubble with this ASMR universe.
And yeah, I can completely relate to the description you have made.
And I want to link that with the world of animal rights and animals in general because
two things.
One I often felt like being a very sensitive person is comparable to being like an animal,
like a cat or a dog, like the sounds you pay attention and you realize that you turned
your head at the same time as your cat or something like that.
And also, second thing, I discovered that animals like my company and when I thought
about it, the conclusion of my reflection was, oh, they like me because I build a calm
environment around myself.
I'm not a loud person.
I'm very mindful of my surroundings.
I'm very mindful of them.
And I think they like that.
They like the safety that it provides.
They like that I'm this kind of person and that's why they're attracted to my company.
So I wonder, have you ever thought about how being sensitive relates to being an animal
lover or caring for animals or having gained the love and trust of the animals of your
life?
Well, I feel like if you're, as we term it, an HSP, a highly sensitive person, animals
are the perfect example of a highly sensitive being.
They communicate on an energetic level.
They communicate through micro movements.
They can feel what you're feeling.
They can sense what you're thinking, which direction you're going to walk in before you've
even moved anywhere.
They're so intuitive on so many different levels, on levels that we can't even understand,
I don't think.
And if animals feel safe around you, then you're connected with them.
But I feel as if you, if you know, if you feel connected to everything around you, then
you're going to relate to animals because they're your family, just like a tree is your
family.
I've heard this story a lot among ASMR people.
They would say to me that when they were little, if they had a favorite teddy bear or something,
they would actually put human emotions and thoughts into this teddy bear or inanimate
objects.
Say for instance, you've got a, this might look, sound weird, but a phone case, a glasses
case.
When I was little, I would never take that glasses case and slam it down on the table
because I would feel like it would hurt the glasses case.
I know that sounds really odd, but there are so many people who say things like that to
me because we innately feel connected to everything around us and the same goes with animals.
So it's very easy to love animals and to feel part of the family.
If you, I mean, if you're connected to an inanimate object, you're definitely going
to love animals.
There are some people who aren't connected to anything around them and just see everything
as an object, which is quite weird for someone who doesn't.
It's like you're a different species almost because you just do not view the world.
You have a completely different perception of the world to that person.
But yeah, going back to the original question that animals are so intuitive and we just
fit perfectly with them and not just pet animals, but all animals.
They have a certain sophisticated intelligence beyond what we can comprehend, I think, sometimes.
And, you know, you often, when you express that sensitivity towards animals around you,
you have to face the judgment of others who don't have that link, who don't have that
sensitivity and find your relationship with animals ridiculous.
And yeah, that can be a harsh thing to experience.
Yeah, I mean, I've experienced it a lot over the past few years, especially because when
I decided to open the rescue in Serbia, I'm literally operating in a country where most
people feel like that.
You know, just setting up the premises, sorting out the property, dealing with all the contracts
and everything, going to go into the solicitors and the notary and all that.
So many times I've been in a situation where they're talking about me in Serbian, assuming
that the only reason why an English person or any person would come over to Serbia to
do something with the animals is because they were trying to make money somehow.
And then, of course, I find out because the manager of the sanctuary, the family that
live there and take care of the animals, they were very close and people don't expect that
we are that close.
So I learn everything that they've been saying in Serbian.
Because their perception of animals is so different to ours, and it's not that they're
not good people.
It's that they have a complete indifference to animals.
They're not connected to everything around them like we are.
It's quite difficult to explain, and I'm still trying to figure it all out anyway.
But they're just objects to them.
They're possessions.
But I would argue that this is one good reason of opening a sanctuary in Serbia, because
this feeling is the default feeling of the people there.
A sanctuary is such a rebellious entity in such context, and it's there to also teach
them, of course, to help the dogs, the animals, but also to teach them that compassion, to
teach them to make that link with animals.
Yeah.
To set an example through action is very, very difficult, I'll be honest.
So many times I've felt like giving up because it's just not easy.
And to run a charity full stop just isn't easy at all.
But to operate in an environment like that, when I'm not there all the time as well.
So the family that we're very close to that are managing the place and with the animals
24-7, I mean, they've got the greatest hearts.
They're such beautiful people.
But we've still had to have the conversations about and set the policies on exactly how
they take care of the animals, because they've grown up with no money at all.
They've never been able to afford to neuter an animal or to keep them in the conditions
that we've got them in.
They've never been able to afford anything like that.
So it's not the one thing that they think of straight away.
I took over some heaters for our living space for the dogs back in January.
And it took me a while to convince them that they need to actually put them on for more
often than they were, because they were thinking, well, it's going to cost a fortune.
And I said, well, yes, but the dogs will freeze.
And they love the dogs.
It's hard for me to explain, because they love the dogs.
But they've never lived in a situation where they could afford to heat the dogs.
And their default position is, but we can't afford it.
So we still have to have these conversations where we decide exactly how we're going to
do things and then make sure they're done.
And then we're dealing with the public and the people that just think, oh, there's a
sanctuary there.
We'll just dump the dogs outside the gate.
We'll dump the puppies outside the gate.
Or not even that.
They just leave them on the road further up.
And the locals who...
We went to pick up a dog.
This guy wanted to get rid of his pointer.
He was about eight years old.
And he was in the local village.
And we went to see him.
And normally they would take that dog and they would just dump them by a busy road.
So he didn't do that.
He contacted us.
So that was a good thing.
But he wanted to get rid of him because he's eight years old.
He's had enough of him.
He said he couldn't afford to feed him anymore.
His wife was in hospital, fair enough.
But when we went round there, this dog was in such terrible condition, kept in a tiny
little cage.
And that didn't need to happen.
Regardless of whether he had money or not, he didn't need to do that because he had a
courtyard that the dog could have been in.
But he thought that it was fine that the dog was in the cage.
And he had lots of cats around.
And of course, whenever I'm around cats, I can't stop touching them.
And I'm standing there and these cats are coming towards me.
And so I'm chatting with the cats.
And I picked up one cat and I'm cuddling this cat.
And the guy just turned to me and said, oh, take the cat.
I said, what do you mean?
Just take it.
Because he wanted us to take the dog.
So in his mind, he was being nice to me.
Just have what you want as long as you take the dog.
But I said, no, this is your cat's home.
And all of these cats here, they're your cat's family.
I'm not going to take them.
It was just in his mind, he was being kind.
But in mine, obviously, I'm like, you can't do that.
You can't just give away the cat just like that, not even knowing where the cat's going
to go or what environment they're going to be living in.
I've come across these situations that are really strange often when I go there.
And it's heartbreaking, really.
That's definitely nowhere near the worst situation that there is over there.
That's very tame.
But it's just a small example.
But the way that some people treat animals out there is absolutely disgusting.
It's absolutely heartbreaking.
And why do you think that they have that insensitivity toward animals?
I know that Serbia has a horrible history of war and violence.
Maybe this has to do with the way they relate to the world.
I know that people make the argument for cultural difference.
So do you have any answers?
Well, I can only speak to what I've experienced myself out in Serbia and when I've visited
other countries.
I just believe it's down to economic situations.
It's down to war.
It's down to money.
Because naturally, I feel that human beings gravitate towards love and kindness anyway
and connection to all things.
If we're in the right environment, that's what we gravitate towards.
If we're in an environment of scarcity and we're in fight or flight all the time because
we're scared about either being poor or we're in a war situation, then the most vulnerable
in society always suffer.
And so if they hadn't been through war, if there was plenty and more to go around, then
animals would be careful more.
It's an interesting situation over there because I see that most people have dogs.
And it's hard to find the language to explain it.
And as I say, I'm still trying to figure it all out myself because so many people have
dogs and they have pets and they, on the face of it, love having animals at least and love
being around animals.
But their animal status within the family is a lot lower than it would be within our
family, for instance.
So they might have a little dog inside the house who's allowed on the sofas and things.
I've just a little one.
But any other dogs would be outside all the time.
And quite often they're on a chain.
They don't go out walking with them very often, although some do.
In the cities, you see people walking with dogs, but they're a particular breed.
Any mixed dogs would be seen as a lot lower class and they'd be more likely to be just
left.
They don't tend to neuter.
I think they believe in sort of a freedom and would feel like that would be controlling
the animal's life.
But then when the dog has puppies, then they don't think anything of taking the puppies
and dumping them by a road.
So that's quite odd.
If you feel like animals should be free to breed and live freely, why would you impose
your will on the puppies by basically killing them?
That doesn't make sense.
Yeah, I don't really know how to talk about it so much because I'm still trying to figure
it out.
It's a difficult situation.
But then there are people who really love animals and try to improve the situation and
they open their own rescues.
Then there are people who work in the government pounds who are nice, but then there are people
who work in the government pounds who are extremely cruel as well, much like slaughterhouse
workers.
Sometimes there are still people who perhaps would come across as compassionate in those
places, but then some people who just are really, really cruel and just really enjoy
what they're doing.
There are people in the pounds who are like that, who treat the dogs really, really badly.
It's an interesting place.
It's full of people who would call themselves animal lovers, but they just don't look after
their pets like we would.
Why did you decide to open a sanctuary in this place in Serbia?
How did it begin?
How did the story of Wispouse begin?
I was just finishing off my book about ASMR and the chapters were being edited and coming
back to me and re-edited and all of that.
It was quite a stressful time because it was written so fast.
I mean, I hardly had any time to just breathe.
And as soon as it was edited, then I was recording the audiobook the day after and then it was
released.
Sorry to interrupt, but I would highly recommend people to listen to the book.
I'm the kind of person who likes to read a book, but for this book, I wanted to listen
to it because you're the one narrating the book and you use such a soothing voice and
it's just perfect.
I would highly recommend for people to listen to the whole five hours of the book.
It's a joy.
It's truly a joy.
Is it five hours long?
That's crazy.
And so whilst all that was going on, friends of ours who we go camping with, we've been
friends with for such a long time, they were going on holiday to Montenegro.
And my friend Sarah said, we've got an extra room in our Airbnb.
Would you like to come along?
And I thought, that'd be just amazing because I haven't organized any breaks this year for
our family and no time off and everything.
And I thought that's job done.
So we went with them, never been to Montenegro and it was really lovely.
We had loads of fun, but there were dogs everywhere.
And don't take me anywhere to where there are dogs and cats roaming around.
It's just a disaster because I won't have a holiday.
And we went to the supermarket and there was a dog outside the supermarket and he was really
sick and he was walking around the cars, waiting by car doors as if to just ask for someone
to take him.
He was desperate to get into a car basically and got and leave.
And I just couldn't rest.
So I fed him obviously and then kept going back every day to see him.
And I just stood outside the supermarket and spoke to people.
And I was looking for people who had good English, who could communicate with me and
just had conversations with a few people.
And I was basically saying, could you help me take this dog to the vet?
And it took a couple of days and eventually this family came towards me and they had amazing
English and all the family was together.
And they were petting him.
So I went over and spoke to them and they'd noticed him as well and they were looking
out for him too.
And I said, would you help me to take him to the vets?
They didn't have the money to take him to the vets, but we did.
And so we met the next morning.
Thankfully they turned up and that was Dusko and Ivana.
We took him to the vets.
We named him Jimmy.
It costs 50 euros to save his life basically.
He had severe heartworm.
He may not have pulled through.
And through the vets, we found a charity called Stray Aid Montenegro and they took him in.
In foster care till the end of the summer.
That cost us another 50 euros.
And then after that, Dusko was able to take him to Serbia to go and live with them.
And so we just gave them money for food and that kind of thing.
And we just became close.
The lockdown started.
Covid was going on.
And we just spoke throughout the whole thing.
And we'd actually said really early on how amazing would it be to open a sanctuary one
day?
That's a dream of theirs.
It's always been a dream of mine to help animals in some way.
And just one thing led to another.
And we ended up finding some a piece of land in Serbia.
Land is very, very cheap out there.
And I'd got the advance from my book came through and I just used that to buy the land.
And it had a property on it.
It was completely dilapidated.
But I sent more money.
I did extra work, sent more money over to do the place up and they moved into it.
And then we just started building the sanctuary from there.
Yeah, it's just kind of one thing led to another really.
You know what you said about that Serbian man who thought that you were trying to make
money in some way.
You were actually losing money.
Oh, so much of it.
Because in one of your videos, you talk about how you wanted to use that money to open an
ASMR retreat.
And instead, you decided to use it to save lives.
Yeah, exactly.
As I say, one thing just led to another really and the opportunity came along to buy the
place.
Yeah, it costs way more than I expected it to cost, as these things always do.
Way over budget.
And so basically, I've just been working the past few years doing extra work, sponsorships
on my channel and anything that I could do to get extra money to pay for everything.
But then, because it took two years to become a registered charity.
It was like it took a long time to just to get all the paperwork together and basically
convince the UK Charity Commission that it was a good idea for us to be a charity.
Because they don't particularly like.
Well, apparently, it's the hardest thing to get registered when you're an animal charity
and even more so overseas.
So you really have to do some convincing and just show them as well that the finances are
watertight.
How does the money go over there?
What exactly is it spent on?
How do you deal with your receipts and your accounting?
Everything has to be done properly, which I would want to do anyway, because I want
to make sure that anybody who donates, they know exactly where the money's gone.
And that's why I wanted to be a registered charity, because your accounts are online
every year.
They can see where the money's going.
You know, and you have to show receipts for absolutely everything and make sure you get
whenever you get quotes in for work, that you've got three quotes in and you've chosen
all that all you've you've chosen reputable builders and all of that stuff.
And everything's done above board.
So all the money's kept in the UK and then we filter through to a multi currency account.
So it's still kept in the UK really.
So because when money is sent over to a country like Serbia, it's harder to keep control over
it.
So just things like that.
I just had to make sure that I explained to them exactly how we were going to run the
charity.
So it just took a long time.
And yeah, and so now we're just open to volunteers and people to help out more trustees.
There's so much work involved in running a charity and most of it's admin as well.
And most people don't really want to volunteer for admin work.
So but I think we'll manage it eventually.
Well, this podcast is devoted to encouraging vegans to take action, to take the extra step
to follow your example.
So what can we do?
What can listeners do to help you in this project?
Well, fundraising is just is always the biggest thing with charities.
Every charity, I'm sure would tell you the same thing is all about fundraising because
there's never enough money.
At the moment, we're taking in dogs that are left by the side of busy roads because they're
the most urgent cases.
Quite often, they've already been run over.
So they're using three legs and they need operations and they need all of their initial
health care.
So out in the Balkans, heartworm and I've got a rescue dog here.
Do you want to see him?
Yes, of course.
Come on.
This is Trevor.
He's so big.
He's very big.
Hello.
Oh, he looks like a Barbie.
I think it's the name of the dog breed.
I'm not sure.
I've got no idea what breed he is.
But I found him when he was a puppy.
He'd been left by a busy road and he was living underneath an engine.
So they have in the countryside in Serbia, they have phone masts that are powered by
engines in the middle of fields to, I guess, to extend the reach of the signal.
And he was living underneath it, but he was very small and he's just grown to this big
boy.
I didn't know how big he was going to get, but because I found him, we've always had
a really close connection.
And every time I went back there to Serbia, he would just follow me everywhere.
And then I had to leave him and he was like, why are you leaving me?
So eventually I managed to work with another charity called Balkan Underdogs, who bring
dogs over to the UK and they helped me to transport him over to the UK on one of their
transport runs.
Because at the moment we don't have volunteers to do rehoming.
You actually need quite a large team to do rehoming.
You need people, obviously, to find the homes, but to check out the homes and then a travel
team to organise the paperwork for travel.
Because Serbia isn't an EU country, it's even more difficult to bring dogs out because you
need extra paperwork.
Also the UK isn't in the EU anymore, so that's extra paperwork too.
So we're just after volunteers really to get involved and to help with just learn all the
transport to get team together to coordinate the whole thing.
The main focus over there is definitely going to be community neutering.
Because what we're realising is that the people in our local areas are those who are allowing
their dogs to reproduce and then dumping the puppies or the litters.
Or they're keeping a cute puppy for a while and as soon as they can become naughty because
they're not training them and they start chewing the furniture and things or whatever.
Or they're not so cute anymore, they just dump them.
So neutering is going to be the biggest thing and it's also not the best thing to be transporting
dogs across countries because every country has their own rehoming issues and their own
pounds with dogs in.
The UK has a lot of dogs in rescues that need rehoming, especially after Covid because people
took puppies, bought puppies and then had to go back to work.
So we're really going to have to focus on neutering and neutering programmes within
Serbia.
We've been raising money to finish the facilities at Whispaw's.
So obviously we can take on more dogs and we'd like to build a cattery at some point.
I actually envisaged Whispaw's to be not just for dogs and cats but to be an animal sanctuary
which is why I called it an animal sanctuary.
But the most urgent problem there at the moment on our doorstep is dogs and cats because they're
just everywhere, they're literally outside the gates.
So once the facilities are finished or the most urgent facilities, I would like to have
some accommodation there so that people can come over and experience Serbia but work with
the dogs and go out and rescues and spend some time kind of like a retreat for humans.
It's a very healing experience to go out and take care of animals and take care of their
day-to-day needs.
To do something outside of yourself for someone else and someone else so deserving is such
a healing experience and I think more people really should experience that.
It would really help them as well.
With my work in ASMR, I meet lots of people who deal with anxiety on a daily basis.
At the very least, that would give them some respite to go over and spend some time and
just work with the animals.
Because animals are healers and they teach us so much and it would just be lovely to
provide that for people too.
So I'd like to either have a couple of caravans or we could build some cabins, something like
that for people to stay in.
Because I'm finding that as a charity, it's quite...
I don't know whether this is true but I feel sometimes that it's quite tiresome for people
to be always asking for donations.
When you're there and you're in the situation, you can see how desperate it is.
But when you're on the other end of social media and it's a charity just asking you for
donations, you don't actually see...
I know that we share posts and things but unless you're there, you don't really see
how desperate it is.
If you were there, a lot of people would go, just take all the money because we need to
deal with this situation because it's really stressful.
I don't always want to show how stressful it is because it upsets people and people
don't want to follow your social media if you're going to stress them out all the time
either.
It's very difficult to balance how you communicate what's going on over there with people.
It would be great to have a way to raise money through renting out accommodation, for instance,
and offering a place for someone to stay so that we could bring some money in for the
charity but also allow people to see what's going on and attract volunteers to do fundraising
events and things like that.
Yeah, I've gone off on a tangent but I'm just trying to escape.
It's all very interesting and I actually work in fundraising.
I fundraise for all sorts of nonprofits and what I always tell the nonprofits that I'm
advising is you're actually not begging for money.
I hate that word.
You're actually giving the opportunity for people to make a gift because making a gift
is something pleasant.
It's something that brings a lot of meaning in one's life.
It's something that has a joy to giving and being able to offer people that opportunity
to practice giving, to experience that joy is a gift in of itself.
I feel that way as someone who is a donor.
When I give to a charity, I feel grateful I'm able to do that.
I'm sure you feel the same way.
You felt the same way when you spent the money you spent on building the sanctuary.
Yeah, it's been very, very difficult.
I have had doubts every now and again thinking, have I done the right thing?
Could I have put this money into the same situation but in a different way?
Would that have helped?
But there's no right or wrong way to do it really.
You just have to follow the opportunities as they come along.
I do think in the long term, it will have been the best option to actually have invested
that money in buying an actual sanctuary rather than sending the money over there to support
another rescue that was there.
Because this way, we have full control over the outcomes for the animals.
We are following every single step of the way and making sure that every policy is followed.
Every dog that goes through those gates has the best healthcare that they can possibly
get because they're ours.
We're not just sending money and hoping that it goes to the right place.
We are doing it ourselves from every step, which I think is really important.
Also you're vegan.
For me, that's the most important thing because I know your values.
I know that you understand the relationship between humans and animals and that your vegan
values will direct your efforts in regard to the sanctuary and how you care for animals.
There's a big difference between initiatives for animal welfare led by non-vegans and vegans.
It's a whole other world.
It's a whole other game.
I completely agree.
That mentality is in every policy for the charity.
It makes a difference to every single step of the way for the dogs.
Even down to the way that I communicate with Dushka and Ivana over there, I say to them,
look, these animals are your children.
This is how you take care of them.
Like I said before, they are such great people and they've got beautiful hearts.
I knew from the moment I met them and from every interaction I had with them that this
would work, that they'd be great managers there.
But like I say, I'm bringing my values into the way that they manage the place.
The trustees of the charity have the same mentality as well.
The future trustees will have that same mentality.
That will show in every policy and ultimately every outcome for the dogs.
It's so easy as well to open this kind of sanctuary basically and just fill it with
animals.
We could go to a government shelter tomorrow and get over 100 dogs straight away.
But that would mean that the living space, that the quality of life for the dogs that
are in the sanctuary would be drastically lowered.
So it's a really heartbreaking situation.
It's a very, very difficult thing to manage.
And everyone I've spoken to who's run any kind of animal charity has told me that it's
best to do it on a smaller scale, but do a really good job for each animal.
But how awful is that because you miss out so many others as well?
It's a very difficult thing to do.
And we all have these dreams of taking care of animals and having a sanctuary one day
and doing it.
We all have these dreams, but the reality of it is much harder than we expect.
But it can become easier with more people being involved.
And another thing I would say is that since I've started this, whenever I'm out and about
in town doing my chores and things, and I'll tell people about it, because in England we
always chat in shops and we tell everything to everybody.
Or I'll be speaking to someone online or whatever.
And they'll say to me, I'll tell them what I'm doing and they'll say, oh, I could never
do that.
And I say, well, why do you think you could never do it?
And they say, well, because I look at those videos and it's too heartbreaking when you
see a rescue video.
And so I could never do it.
And one thing I have found and I can say with absolute certainty is that you could do it
because that feeling of helplessness that you have when you're watching a video, when
you're in that situation, in reality, taking that dog, all of those feelings are gone because
you are acting, you are doing something, you are completely healing any of those feelings
that you would have had by doing it.
And it's such an amazing feeling to save a life, that you have the power to do that.
You can walk, you can stop that car, you can stop your car, you can get out of the car
and you can pick up that dog that's on the side of the road and you can take them back
and take them to the vets and everything and give them everything that they need.
That's such an amazing feeling.
It's not like watching the videos.
So I would say to anybody who has that feeling that they would find it hard or that they
couldn't do it, you definitely could.
I can tell you, if I can do it, then you could do it.
That's a very empowering message and a beautiful invitation for people.
And the main reason why I love this initiative, why I love Wisp Out, because it's the embodiment
of hope.
You have this desert of animal exploitation, which is Serbia.
And in the middle of that desert, you have an oasis of compassion and love and kindness
towards all animals.
It's so beautiful when you contemplate on that, on how such a beautiful thing could
rise in such an ugly place in terms of animal exploitation.
Yeah, we've got a long way to go.
But each, I'd say every few months, the facilities are improving.
We're learning more.
The animals' lives are improving.
And the word is getting out there about what we're doing.
We're attracting more help.
And slowly, slowly, it is becoming what you say, an oasis.
And I've got so many amazing visions for the place.
Because it's a beautiful place.
Serbia is beautiful.
And where we have our sanctuary is a beautiful setting in the countryside.
And the sunsets are absolutely stunning.
It's so strange to be in this beautiful place.
And when you go to the cities, the buildings are incredible.
And everything's rackier.
And everything's, though, come and have a drink with us.
And everybody's happy and nice people.
But then you've got this situation with the animals.
It's quite shocking to be going back to what I said before.
I'm still trying to work it out.
It's so odd to me.
But whenever I go there, I'm just filled with so much hope because I see how amazing the
place is going to be.
And fast forward a few years' time, it's going to be just gorgeous.
And the dogs that are there now are really happy.
They live outside.
But we've got a big barn with heaters in.
And they sleep in there.
And the winters are quite harsh.
But we've got the heaters now.
But in the summer, the weather's so amazing out there.
And they've got beds and blankets and all those things that you would expect that you
would have to take care of the dogs.
They've got all those luxuries, all those comforts.
But they still choose to sleep outside.
And you'll walk around.
And there's a dog sleeping in a bush all night.
And they're happy.
They've got all this land to run around in.
And they play together.
They play fight.
They do their rounds around the perimeter.
To them, they're in a great place.
But then as the facilities improve, they'll be in an even greater place.
And then hopefully, the dogs that we have will be able to get homes for and send them
to different countries, hopefully.
We have actually rehomed some of our dogs locally, believe it or not.
We found family members.
And we found kind families around that have taken them.
And they've got good lives.
They're not chained up or anything like that.
They're in a family.
So things are improving.
And one thing I will say about Serbia is that they've adopted a new animal welfare policy
law.
That came into force 2019.
It's not particularly enforced as yet.
But it's a decent animal rights law.
So the framework is in place.
So it's just going to take time for things to improve.
One thing that we're going to do is work with the local community as much as we possibly
can get through to them.
We'll be asking them to neuter their animals.
We'll be offering to do it for them even.
And just to bring down the amount of dogs that are dumped.
And just through those conversations that we have with them, we'll be just giving them
a different idea, a different perception, perhaps, hopefully.
And just get used to them thinking that it's a good idea to do.
Because once they've seen that their dog's been neutered and they're not producing, they'll
be like, oh, this is actually quite good.
It's just not something they considered spending money on before.
But if it's free, then they'll probably go for it.
We'll do as much as we can to help the local community.
Amazing.
Emma, I think we covered enough grounds on the topic.
Did you want to add something before we end this conversation?
I just ask people if they would like to get involved, then they can email me at info at
wispaws.org, W-H-I-S-P-A-W-S dot org.
And the website is wispaws.org.
We're on social media, wispaws underscore rescue.
Like I say, we need a travel team.
We need a rehoming team.
People to take care of different bits of admin.
And the more people that are on these jobs, the less work it is for everybody.
Fundraising is a massive, massive area that needs extra help.
So anyone that can help with fundraising at any time with anything would be just absolutely
amazing.
I'm extremely open about what needs doing, how much money we need to do it, where the
money's going.
Very transparent about all of that stuff.
I think it's very, very important that people know exactly where that money's going.
So yeah, I'm working on just lists of things that need doing and how much they're going
to cost.
And then once they're done, we show that the work's been done and all of that.
And then obviously people could come and visit and get involved as well.
And all of the details, the references you gave will be available in the description
below for people to see.
Emma, this has been a pleasure.
This has been such an inspiring conversation and I hope, really hope the message gets across.
Thank you so much for having been a guest on the show and for having answered my questions.
Thanks so much for having me.
It's been really, really lovely to speak with you.
Thanks.
Thank you everyone for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.
Let's encourage more people to take action.
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.