Queen Elizabeth II reigned over the United Kingdoms and the Commonwealth for 70 years,
making her the second longest reigning monarch in history.
She is remembered for her sense of duty and her devotion to a life of service, which made
her a beloved and respected figure worldwide.
However her legacy is not all good as she is also remembered as being a passionate supporter
of horse racing, thus contributing more than anyone else to giving a cover of prestige
to a horrific industry.
In footage provided by The Telegraph years ago, she is seen visiting her stables and
seeing something quite peculiar at the sight of one of her horses.
Quote, I often wonder what goes through her head.
To answer the Queen's wonderment, I have with me Patrick Betwello and Nicole Arcello.
Patrick is the founder and president and Nicole the executive director of the animal rights
organization Horse Racing Wrongs.
The organization's mission statement reads, Horse Racing Wrongs is a non-profit committed
to ending the cruel and deadly horse racing industry in the United States.
Patrick, Nicole, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having us, Ryan.
So let's dive right in with a question related to what the Queen was thinking and asking,
can you take us through the life journey of a horse distanced to horse racing?
And I'm thinking from the birth of the horse to its retirement.
Sure.
So the various breeds that are used in horse racing, mainly thoroughbreds, quarter horses
and standard breds are bred for one purpose and that is to get them on the track so they
can start earning for their humans.
So the cruelty really starts at a very, very young age.
So anywhere between six months and a year of age, these horses are forever separated
from their mothers and herds and then they are broken, which is an industry term meaning
to be made pliant and submissive.
And at that point, they are thrust into the horse racing industry.
The abuse only exacerbates from there.
In nature, horses fully mature, don't fully mature until the age of six.
So their bones are not done growing, their growth plates are not done fusing until around
five or six years of age.
Horse racing on the other hand, takes 18 month old horses, which on the maturation chart
is a rough equivalent of a kindergartner or first grader and they put them into intensive
training.
It's there that the incessant grinding of these unformed bodies begins and this is all
done with an eye toward racing them at two.
Again, years before their bodies are fully mature.
So this is what we see in the necropsies when we get full necropsies through our FOIA requests
with the racing commissions around the country.
We see four, three, even two year old horses.
These are adolescents at best dying with chronic conditions like osteoarthritis and degenerative
joint disease.
Sometimes it's so bad that it's in all four limbs and this is just again a testament to
that grinding of these unformed bodies that the industry puts these horses through.
They are raced again at the age of two.
Of course, there's the killing that goes on at the track or on the track, but something
that a lot of people don't think about is the everyday, the day in, day out life of a
horse.
So as a rule, these animals are kept locked in tiny 12 by 12 stalls for over 23 hours
a day by themselves.
Social isolation and deprivation, these are naturally social herd animals and they are
kept locked in these tiny stalls for 23 hours plus a day.
So we see with the horses the same kinds of stereotypies or vices, abnormal behaviors
that we used to see with the Ringland elephants, for example, the bobbing, the swaying, the
weaving for horses, the kicking, digging, self mutilation.
They do what's called wind sucking, which is they grab onto whatever they can find in
the stall and suck in air through their mouths.
This is clear, unequivocal evidence of emotional and mental duress that these animals are under
and it's something that most people don't think about.
When we testified before the New York State Senate in 2019, along with us was a prominent
equine veterinarian here in upstate New York, Dr. Craig Kulakowski, and he likened this
to keeping a child locked in a 4 by 4 closet for 23 hours a day.
So that should really bring it home to your listeners.
So it's that day in and day out cruelty of confinement and negation, all their natural
instincts and desires are being thwarted.
They're not allowed to be a horse.
They are of course drugged and doped.
Most people know about that.
They are whipped.
Again, that's right there in full public view.
Something that a lot of people don't think about are the bits.
So a bit is a chunk of metal wedged into the soft palate of the horse's mouth and it's
another means of control.
It's attached to the reins and this is another way for the jockey to control the horses.
Well not only does that cause pain in and of itself, it's a chunk of metal in the horse's
mouth, but, and this is something we found out last summer, we were protesting out in
front of Saratoga Racecourse and a prominent professional photographer was there taking
shots of us and she was sympathetic to our cause and she said, I'm going into the track
and maybe take some shots of the fans.
Is there anything you'd like me to look for in particular?
And Nicole asked her to take pictures of the horse's heads and specifically the paraphernalia
on the heads.
So she took these really strong impactful photos and we see animal abuse, but of course
I always try to get expert testimony.
So I reached out to our advisory board, a prominent animal behaviorist, Dr. Nicholas
Dodman, who is a retired Tufts professor and he said, it's a little out of my wheelhouse,
let me reach out to a colleague of mine from Tufts who specializes in equine ear, nose
and throat.
So this man who was retired was a little reluctant at first, we are an animal rights organization,
needless to say, and he didn't want to necessarily be associated with that.
And I said, Dr. Cocoel, we're looking for is your expert opinion on what you're seeing
in these photographs.
He came back with this devastating statement, Ryan, he talked about something I didn't know
myself that horses are obligate nose breathers.
So in nature, if they're running, they're maintaining a tight lip seal, they're not
bringing in any air through their mouths.
He said all those horses racing that day at Saratoga race course, perhaps the top track
in the entire country are going to have these feelings of asphyxiation, suffocation, and
he likened it to waterboarding.
Because again, they're not able to close their mouths because of the bits makes that impossible.
So that's what these horses are going to be experiencing.
So it's something that no one ever thinks about.
But of course, that's one of our major talking points, talking about the everyday cruelty
that these horses endure.
Of course, I can get into the killing, but I'm sure you have some follow up questions.
Yes, many of them. But first, let's go back to what you said about breaking the horse.
That is something we have heard before from watching a Western movie, or maybe what's
popular right now is that Yellowstone TV series.
So what is that about?
How do we break a horse, the spirit of a horse?
Yeah, well, as far as the specific steps that they take, I'm not entirely well versed on
that.
But of course, this is all part of the domestication process.
It's the same thing we do with all domesticated animals.
We have to make them client and submissive, docile.
We have to tame them, take away that spirit, take away their autonomy.
And nature, horses are fully autonomous beings.
But of course, that wouldn't work.
You have to be able to control them.
It's all about control.
And so the breaking process, again, how they go about doing it, I'm sure it is cruel in
and of itself.
But the end result is that you have, well, in theory, a client and submissive animal.
So then you can go about and do what you want with that animal.
But it's not perfect.
It's not a perfect system.
We see in the race charts, of course, I review the charts every single day.
And they're kind of like little box scores for the betters.
But in there, there are chart notes for each of the horses.
And often I'll see, especially with two-year-olds who are under the whip for the very first
time, they were fractious in the gate.
They were unruly.
They were difficult to load.
These are the terms and the phrases that the chart writer will use for some of these horses
because the taming process has not been completed at that point.
So again, this is just another example of how they take away the horse's autonomy and
true nature.
And I guess the horses we see on the tracks are like the elite, the tip of the iceberg.
Behind every horse we see on the track, there are many others that went through the same
horrific training but were not selected as champions.
Would that assessment be correct?
That's a very, very good point, Ryan.
So we do know how many horses are registered to race each year.
So for just thoroughbreds, for example, it's roughly around 18,000 or so.
In a very telling turn of phrase, they use full crop, the number of new horses coming
into the system each year.
And indeed, it is a crop, right?
But we have no idea how many potential racehorses are bred each year.
No idea.
Of course, there's no tracking going on.
They don't want the public to know how many of these animals don't even get that far.
And then even if they are registered to race, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're
going to end up in a race.
Some of them don't make it to the track.
So those are the discarded, the throwaways.
And for some, it's the slaughterhouse.
For others, perhaps an early euthanasia before they even have a chance to live at all.
So yeah, it's a very, very good point.
There are so many untold horses out there that, again, it's all about trying to find
the next champion, right?
And there's about 100 tracks in the US that operate consistently, not all throughout the
whole year.
And then there's over 100 training tracks.
Over 200, actually.
Over 200 training tracks.
And there's also horse racing at over 100 state and county fairs.
So there's a lot of racing.
There's a lot of horses in the system.
But we can't, like Patrick said, track every single horse.
We get a lot of information, but we can't obtain all of that information.
And who is participating to this economic activity?
Can anyone decide to breed a horse and train that horse to become a horse racing champion?
And I want to have an idea of who are the people behind the industry and what is the
profit that they're making and what drives their ambitions here?
Sure.
So it's a spectrum.
We have at the very top, wealthy individuals.
Celebrities are involved often.
Bill Parcells, famous football coach, is also a famous thoroughbred owner.
There's a lot of money in the Middle East and in Asia.
But then all the way down to the other end of the spectrum, we have people who are just
living week to week and just trying to eke out a living.
So it runs the whole spectrum here.
We have some stables have maybe 100 or 100 plus horses.
Others will only race maybe a handful of horses at a time.
There are what's called syndicates.
So for a small buy-in, anyone can own a part of a racehorse.
It's something that the industry has tried to promote and market in recent years to try
to generate more interest among the public.
And that's exactly what they say.
Look, for a very small investment, you can be part of the action here and you can own
a share of a racehorse.
So it runs the whole gamut.
It reminds me of the fur industry.
You have on one side this high-end luxury product and then on the flip side, you have
the most horrific exploitation of animal that you can find.
And this is the same situation, the same dynamic here.
Because when I think about horse racing, I think about the royalty.
I think about the queen.
That's why I chose that introduction.
I think about billionaires and it's something very luxurious and that's what inspires me
when I think about it.
But the cruelty aspect is very well hidden.
So how do you explain the disparity between the image people have of horse racing and
the reality of it?
I mean, the kind of horrible details that you mentioned are on display for everyone
to see, but everyone seems to be blind to what's happening on the track.
So how do you explain that?
That's an excellent question.
It all comes down to marketing.
It's brilliant marketing.
It's been sold to us as a sport.
Indeed, the sport of kings, to use your royalty analogy.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s.
I was a big, big sports fan.
I had favorites in every sport and I didn't follow horse racing year round, but because
it was sold to me as just another sport, I watched Seattle slew and affirm going for
the Triple Crown.
I knew who Secretariat was.
I admired Secretariat.
I remember when ESPN named him the 35th greatest athlete of the 20th century.
So that's what we're up against as activists.
We need to recondition the public mind.
We need to get them to look through what they've been sold, what they've been told about horse
racing and see it for what it actually is.
And as you said, it's right there for all to see.
I've got a page on the website, The Big Lie and What Other Sport?
And I list off the things that apply to horse racing, but apply to no other accepted sport
on the planet.
And of course it's not a sport.
Of course it's just exploitation of a weaker species for $2 bets for gambling.
And so that's what our job as advocates is to get people to reassess, to look at it through
a fresh lens.
And we're confident that if they do and if they take into consideration the changes within
just animal entertainment over the past decade with Ringland Brothers shutting down and SeaWorld
into climb because of blackfish, with rodeo bands in multiple cities around the country.
And now dog racing is on death's door.
There are only two dog tracks left in the entire country.
And in fact, dog racing is prohibited on moral grounds in 42 states.
So we say to people, look, if you think that dog racing is immoral or unethical or inhumane,
then why is there any difference or what is the difference?
How can you justify horse racing?
And I think that if you look at it from that perspective, it should be clear to most people.
And I think that because most of us only a lot, there's horse racing in 38 states.
So I think most of us, most people that I know or only know about the Triple Crown.
So they know about Kentucky Derby Day.
They know that there's parties and they know about that.
And I also think that's why horse racing kind of flew under the radar for animal rights
activists for so many years.
You talked about fur.
We've been fighting, educating, protesting fur since the 70s, you know, and maybe before
that as far as my knowledge goes back.
But horse racing wasn't there.
So I think that, you know, we see these, you know, horses on TV for the Triple Crown for
the Kentucky Derby.
And we see that they're being treated like royalty and they're being bathed and combed
and kissed and they have roses all over them.
And I think even activists were like, oh, those horses are probably fine, you know,
until, you know, we came around and Patrick started to expose the truth.
But there's so much horse racing at such a lower level, right?
And a lot of our backyards that we don't even know about where these aren't champions, these
horses aren't worth anything but $2,000 price tag maybe, you know, and I think that that's
another reason why it kind of, you know, people don't really pay attention.
They're not all betting on it.
It's not something, you know, that's happening everywhere.
Well let me ask this question, a bit of a challenging question.
Is there any world in which horse racing would be ethical?
Would there be any version of horse racing where it would be considered like something
that does not harm horses?
Or is it by its nature an activity that will only harm and victimize horses?
It's the latter clearly.
So it's, well we say it's an inherently cruel and inevitably deadly and that's something
I would like to talk about is the death on and at the track.
So when we started, we decided we needed hard evidence, facts to go after this behemoth
of an industry.
I started filing FOIA requests with racing commissions immediately, trying to get information
on the number of horses and the details of those deaths around the country.
It's something that before we started, no one knew how many horses were dying at American
tracks let alone the circumstances in which they were dying.
So since 2014 on our website, we have confirmed and documented almost 10,000 kills, 10,000
names, dates, locations, and details.
We estimate however that over 2,000 horses are dying at US tracks every year.
Over 2,000, that's roughly six horses every day.
Imagine that.
So to your question about is there a world where this could be made acceptable, if one
horse dies, horse racing, if one horse dies, it is indefensible, right?
And even if no horses died, the other attendant cruelties that I spoke about would still exist.
They are not allowed to be horses.
They're not allowed to be what nature intended.
It is inherently cruel, as I mentioned.
And as far as the death at the track, it's something that most people think of a broken
leg and euthanasia and that's the death.
And although that does account for more than half of deaths at the track or on the track,
they die in other various ways.
We see them dying of blunt force head trauma, for instance, from collisions with other horses
or the track itself.
We see them dying of what's called a cardiovascular collapse or a sudden cardiac event.
In essence, their hearts give out.
These are animals again, who are mostly still in puberty and adolescence, just keeling
over and dying.
We see them dying of pulmonary hemorrhage, which means that they bled out from their
lungs.
There's even a term that the racing industry uses, it's called exercise-induced pulmonary
hemorrhage.
They know what happens.
It happens on a regular basis.
They are racing so hard and so fast that there is a certain amount of bleeding in their lungs
and if that bleeding becomes too much, they will literally bleed out because of it.
I see on the charts all the time, forces return bleeding from the nostrils or just a simple
bled and that means that there's bleeding in the lungs.
That's how it manifests itself.
We see them dying of broken necks.
We see them dying of severed spines.
We see them dying of ruptured ligaments.
It's not just the broken legs, but the broken legs alone.
If you take some time and read our website, you'll see it's all in the details.
It's all in the descriptions of those broken legs and multiple fractures, compound, common
root, which means it's shattered into many pieces, open fractures, which means that the
bone broke through the skin.
It's horrific in a word and this is happening every single day, not just on American tracks,
but on tracks across the world.
They also die back in their stalls.
Again, these are animals who are mostly still in puberty and adolescence, in between races,
so still very much active, dying quite painfully often back in their stalls from things like
colic, an abdominal affliction or laminitis, excruciating inflammation in the feet.
They die of pneumonia or other respiratory infections.
Sometimes on the FOIA reports that I get, it'll simply say, found dead in the morning,
quote, found dead in the morning.
Again, these are animals two, three, four years old.
Again, it's impossible to defend, to justify.
This is the 21st century.
This was a 20th century gambling business.
Even though it was sold as a sport, in the end, it's about gambling.
For decades, the horse racing industry had a virtual monopoly on legal gambling in this
country, dog racing, of course.
Today, there's no excuse.
If you want to gamble, then go to a casino, play the lottery or pick up your phone as
you can in 30 plus states around the country now and bet on real sports involving autonomous
human beings, basketball, football, baseball, no excuse.
This is the 21st century.
Our message is very simple, enough, enough.
There must be also doping going on with those horses.
If there is doping with athletes, human athletes, then there must be something like that with
horses.
Do we know if there's any kind of cheating going on, horses being injected with chemicals
to make them?
Certainly.
Yes, of course, there's doping.
They're always going to try to find an edge, just like you said, with human sports.
But there is a distinction to be made, Ryan, between doping and drugging violations.
Doping is illegal substances.
Over the years, I've seen cocaine, Viagra, I think it's dimorphine, which is more powerful
than morphine.
Frog juice is the term that they use for it.
It comes from the backs of frogs in South America.
Caffeine, I've seen all kinds of drugs as far as doping is concerned.
But that is not as common as what you see in the reports every day about drug overages.
These are legal medications that there's just too much in the horse's system.
The goal, of course, is to numb the pain, mask injury, and keep them out on the track
because if they're not racing, they're not earning.
The drugging and doping is a big part of this.
Unfortunately, I think it gets outsized attention in the media and among the public.
There's a little too much focus on it.
The suggestion is that it could be cleaned up, like baseball with steroids.
We can do something about the drugging and doping.
In fact, there was federal legislation passed in 2020 and it created this new authority.
It's called HISA, the Horse Racing Integrity and Safety Authority.
Their mandate is primarily to place the drugging and doping at American tracks.
It's a wrong, but it's not the worst thing that they do to horses.
You talked about secretary and I'm also thinking about the veterinarians involved with this
whole operation.
Often when we see images of horse owners, they look like if they care about their horses.
Why those people who are so close to the animal, who are witnessing the pain of the horse,
why are they not deciding in greater number?
I don't know if there are some famous cases of people who have left this industry and
became outspoken about it.
My question is, why are they not sensitive to that pain if they are so close to the creature?
They know that horses feel pain.
They know that they are more complicated and that they're not machines.
How do you explain that they're not on our side?
It's a great question.
Of course, it's a million dollar question that we vegans ask all the time.
How do you not see it?
How do you not make that connection with a suffering being?
You could be a part of the solution simply by becoming vegan and just issuing all animal
products.
With horse racing, I have found over the years, Ryan, that there are two types of people.
I'm not a psychologist, but I think it's pretty straightforward here.
We have those who truly believe that these animals are happy and truly believe that they
love their horses and they care about their horses.
They're the ones that are on social media when a horse breaks down and they're saying
that it was bawling when I found out that the horse broke down.
They don't see it.
For them, there's this disconnect.
They don't see what we see.
There are others, though, who know exactly who they are and what they do and don't care.
For them, it's just a means to an end.
They'll publicly say the right things.
We get this from the industry all the time when they're putting out their statements,
when they're under a certain amount of scrutiny.
Nothing is more important than the safety and well-being of our, quote, equine athletes.
That's all nonsense.
It's deception at its finest.
There are two types.
I've dealt with many, many from both sides over the years.
In the former category, the ones who truly believe that there's nothing wrong with what
they're doing, there's no getting through to them.
We see it for what it is.
It's clearly exploitation.
Right?
I don't know how you can – you're forcing that horse to do something.
If that horse had a choice in the matter, he wouldn't want to be locked up in a tiny
stall and then thrust into a race every couple of weeks with a man sitting on top wielding
a whip, no less.
For the people who have been in this industry for their whole lives, it's a self-delusion
is what it is.
Those are the two types that we see.
As far as the owners of the horses from what our insiders or former people that work with
us, they tell us that the owners don't see their horse.
They don't visit their horse.
Their horse is a machine for them.
It's a money-making machine or whatever.
You're talking a lot of those – the ones you see are those high-level, those big race
days, Triple Crown days, all of that.
You'll see the owner in the winner's circle.
You don't see a lot of that at the lower tracks.
The veterinarians, it's a job.
They're compromised and that's what they're doing.
Patrick talked about Craig Kolakowski's, the veterinarian's testimony at the Senate
hearing.
He did start out and that can be found on our YouTube.
It's his testimony.
He talked about how he went to the racetrack to be a veterinarian there and he couldn't
do it.
He walked away, but so many others.
So he gets it, but the others don't.
The others, for them, it's a revenue stream.
It's a job.
The trainers want injections.
They work together.
There's private vets.
There's track vets.
They're just part of the industry.
So they're going to do what they do.
I feel like for some of them, it's also almost like a religion.
It's intergenerational.
It's a family tradition.
When they talk about horse racing, it's almost like their spirituality or something.
They will have sculptures of horses everywhere and they're very proud of it, but they're
the bad guys.
I think that they see horses as this sexy spiritual being, but they care about how the
horse makes them feel, not about how the horse feels ever.
The horse makes them feel good.
They love seeing the beauty of the horse.
It makes them feel good, but they're not seeing what they...
Like you say, for the tradition, well, my father did this, my grandfather did this,
and his father did this, and we've raised horses forever.
I think they know at their core somewhere, hopefully, that these horses belong together
and they shouldn't be created for suffering, but they don't see that, I'm sure.
I want to talk about the gambling aspect of it because that makes the whole issue even
more infuriating.
It's an issue I found...
I'm very passionate about the whole issue of gambling because first of all, it's something
run by the state.
Also it is at the center of our most pressing issues of social inequality.
Who is the biggest clientele of the gambling, the lottery, the betting world?
It's minorities.
It's low income people who are trapped in an addiction mind frame, in the addiction
sickness.
I've heard of one person who was addicted to gambling on the horse tracks.
The stories you've heard before, missing the birthdays, asking for money from their family
members.
It's misery personified.
I wonder who are the consumers of the show of horse racing?
I guess part of them is the people who are addicted to gambling, the people who this
industry is preying on.
You are also the richest, the royalty and the billionaires we mentioned.
Am I missing another slot of the population here?
Sure.
I'm glad you brought up the economics because that's a huge part of this story and something
that most people are totally unaware of.
Horse racing in America is largely being propped up by taxpayer subsidies.
Some 75% of the industry would collapse virtually overnight if not for this corporate welfare,
massive corporate welfare.
To use New York State, our own state, as an example, there are 11 tracks, 7 harness and
4 thoroughbred.
If not for this money, which amounts to some $230 million per year in taxpayer money, that
9 of those 11 tracks would have shuttered years ago.
They've amassed some $3 billion in total corporate welfare since the program began around 2004.
It's the same thing in Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, Louisiana, right down the line.
The way it worked is around the turn of the century, horse racing was finding more and
more difficult to compete with casinos and state lotteries.
This is before sports betting, mind you.
Of course, they had a monopoly on gambling, as I mentioned, for decades and now they're
crying that they can't compete.
They went to state legislatures and they said simply, look, if you don't help us here, if
you don't give us a leg up, you are going to be responsible for putting so many thousands
of people out of work.
These numbers, by the way, they pluck out of thin air, these jobs numbers.
But that's a whole other issue.
Back then it was an easy vote for state legislatures.
They didn't want to be on the wrong side of a jobs issue, so they voted these subsidies
in.
Only recently in the past few years has this started to get more attention.
First, the governor of Pennsylvania at the time, Governor Wolf, put it as part of his
budget a proposal to take $200 million annually that Pennsylvania horse racing was receiving
and apply it to college scholarships for Pennsylvanians.
Here in New York, we are part of a coalition that introduced legislation to take the subsidies
away from New York horse racing.
All state sanctioned gambling, whether it's casinos or lotteries or sports betting or
horse racing, is supposed to, in theory, support education, school children, right?
So we are literally cheating school children in New York out of $1 billion every four years.
Imagine how many new teachers we could hire, lunch programs we could fund, infrastructure
we could repair.
It's mind boggling.
So you take the cruelty component out of it entirely, it's a no-brainer.
Stop propping up this dying industry.
As far as the typical bettor, the demographics are skewing very, very poorly for horse racing
and it's not going to get any better.
The typical horse player, this is the lifelong gambler, is a 65-year-old guy, right?
They're not being replaced by the younger generations.
And the reason for that is twofold.
Yes, there is more competition for the gambling dollar.
As mentioned, sports betting is sweeping the country and Gen X, millennials, or Gen Z,
I should say, millennials, they're just going to pick up their phone and bet on basketball,
football, and baseball.
But the other component is change of sensibilities.
So you don't have to be vegan or an animal rights activist to look at this and say, why
would I want to bet on an activity that requires an animal to be whipped when I can go to a
casino or bet on my phone, basketball, football, what have you.
So clearly long-term, this is very, very bad for horse racing and it's not going to improve.
So it's our job to get those subsidies reversed and take that money away from them.
And we would be helping school children and at the same time, be saving horses.
Yes.
And also saving those people who are trapped by their addiction.
I think that a great number of horse racing tracks have introduced slot machines to their
whole services provided.
The slot machines are a subsidy.
That is a subsidy.
So that's not right.
So instead of the whole percentage going back to the state, a certain section of it is being
siphoned off for the horse racing operation.
So that's how they receive their subsidies typically, is through slot machines or other
table games.
So at those tracks in New York State, there's one thoroughbred track, but the harness tracks
have the casino, the racino, we call it, attached and all of the people are at the slot machines
and there's nobody watching racing.
So we did a photo essay of that where we went into all of those tracks, we sent people in
and to take pictures of those stands and nobody was there.
So that's why there's a subsidy.
So it's kind of like, it's gambling, it's a gambling business.
So you see at tracks like Saratoga, it's more of a social scene.
Yes, people are gambling, but there's a lot more people in those grounds that aren't gambling.
They're having picnics, it's just a different, totally different type of setup.
But then the smaller tracks around the country, the Mountaineer and the Thistle Down, those
are the ones without even the casinos attached.
Those are all you see as gamblers sitting there.
Those are lower level tracks.
There's no fanfare, there's no roses, there's no celebrities.
These are lower level tracks and that's the kind of clientele that they have to answer
that question.
But those are subsidized too.
So they are bringing in more gambling.
But when Greyhound Racing was kind of coming to an end, they did a lot of decoupling, so
they took away that connection.
So in New York State and I don't know, in all of the subsidy states, but they can't
have that casino without the racing.
So that's the deal.
If you want to open that casino, you have to have racing too.
So it's another way to keep racing alive and create more gambling, I guess too.
I think we did a great job at describing the problem in details.
And now I want to talk about what we can do to resolve what is happening.
And you mentioned many of the actions you have taken, but I want to start with the origins
of your passion for fighting horse racing.
So how did it start?
How did you take an interest and how did you create horse racing wrongs?
Sure, so it started because I was writing a blog for our local newspaper here in upstate
New York, the Albany Times Union, and it was an animal rights blog.
I was trying to cover all the various animal issues.
When I started researching horse racing, two things jumped out.
First there was a dearth of information.
Again, no one knew how many horses were dying.
No one knew about the other kinds of cruelties.
And I knew instinctively that this is bad, this is cruel.
Again, I was vegan at the time and an animal rights activist.
And second, I found that there was no group, big or small, committed to this issue.
We had protesters, as Nicole mentioned, in front of Ringland Brothers for going back
decades.
There were groups dedicated to fur and factory farming and animal testing.
A dog racing had great 2K.
Horse racing, there was nothing in this country.
So I saw a big void in the animal rights community and decided I was going to try to fill it.
I didn't know anything about horses because I didn't grow up with horses.
The only thing I knew about horse racing was as a sports fan growing up.
So I really had to immerse myself in the issue and had to learn very quickly about horses
and horse racing.
So that's how it began.
And then I came along.
And I went to my first protest and fell in love with protesting.
So as Patrick was gathering this information and putting this data together, I was like,
OK, we need to start protesting.
And then we started because we live near Saratoga.
And I went there as a child every year with my parents and as an adult until I went vegetarian.
I was like, there's animals here.
I probably shouldn't be here anymore.
But then I didn't know why until Patrick and I started working together.
And then I found all of these activists, local vegans and people that weren't vegan, they
hated the track.
And now they're learning why they shouldn't go, why they hate it, or more reasons to hate
it.
And then they started coming too.
So then I said, OK, we need to do this across the country and then be able to have posters
and signs and guidance and take everything that we've learned protesting at one of the
biggest tracks, the oldest tracks in the country, and help people all over the country, help
activists.
And Nicole has really taken the organization to a whole new level.
We are national, obviously, and we've sponsored protests in over 20 states, over 25 tracks,
I believe.
We've had over 70 protests across the country this year.
Just this year, yeah.
And she's being a little bit humble here.
But when we started at Saratoga, when Nicole started with the protests, organizing protests,
we had maybe 10 people.
There was five people.
Five in the first year.
I drove home crying because the people were so mean.
Yeah, before COVID.
And this is not a major metropolitan area.
It's Albany is the capital, but it's not New York City by any stretch.
Before COVID, we were drawing 100 protesters for the Traverse Stakes, which is the big
race at Saratoga each August.
175 every weekend.
We actually, and Nicole, with some help from city activists in New York, we mobilized 150
for the Belmont Stakes back in 2018 or 19.
COVID obviously has put a crimp on some of this.
I think we've found, not just with us, that it's more difficult to get people to come
out, but we still draw.
We still have a real dedicated, passionate group, not just locally, but around the country.
And it's all because of Nicole's hard work.
What else?
I was going to say something else and you embarrassed me.
So back to that, we had five at our first one, and then I cried and went home.
And then I said, we're going back.
And then we had 20, and then we just kept building.
But the most important thing, and what I like to tell every vegan that's listening or at
home, you have to be a voice for the animals every single day.
It's not enough just to be vegan.
And I think a lot of us say, well, I'm vegan, so I'm saving X amount of animals, but that's
all you're saving.
You need to save more.
And those are the kinds of people that work and tend to share recipes and talk about restaurant
offerings and, hey, that's all fine.
But you have to take the next step because the animals, as Nicole said, desperately need
us.
And we feel that if you think back in our history, every great social justice movement
has started in the streets with protest, whether it's gender rights, sexual orientation, civil
rights, obviously, right down the line.
So animal rights is no different.
You have to voice your outrage.
You have to let the average person know there's something wrong here.
And this is why.
Educate.
So go ahead.
And one thing we found early on as we started protesting here were regular, everyday people
were contacting us and saying, I want to protest.
I hate this.
And now I know what's happening to the horses.
And they weren't vegan at the time.
And now they're standing next to vegans.
We're talking about vegan stuff and where we're going to go eat vegan food after.
And they became vegan.
So as we go through, I go through on social media and things.
I'm like, that person wasn't vegan when we met them.
And now they are.
And their whole family's vegan.
And it's just kind of when you bring the attention to the suffering of one animal to people,
then they kind of go home and they say, oh, what am I going to what am I eating?
I'm eating an animal.
So you start really bringing that in.
So it's satisfying in that way, too.
I think for us, we always think we're not doing enough for animals every day, even though
we're doing things every day.
But we think we're not doing enough for maybe chickens and cows and pigs and things like
that every day.
We're both vegan for a long time.
But that was part of it, too.
I'm so glad to hear you say that, because that's the whole reason why I started this
podcast.
It's a call for action.
So Nicole, you mentioned how you were crying because of some people, I guess, that were
against your protest.
What kind of opposition did you have and still have against your initiative?
I don't know if I understand the question.
Pushback.
Oh, pushback?
Pushback.
So well, that was a long time ago.
So there we were overpowered.
So the corner we were standing on, the five of us or six of us, I think it was five, there's
a stoplight and they have a traffic.
I don't know, someone could cross the road.
Well, to tell you the purpose, it's really important to know that for people who don't
understand horse racing, Saratoga is one of a handful of tracks.
We're talking over about 100 tracks nationally.
Only a handful are true draws that truly are self-sufficient, popular destinations and
Saratoga is one of them.
So it just happens to be in our backyard.
So when Nicole talks about the masses of people coming across the street, you have to understand
if you go to some of these average tracks around the country, you don't see these kinds
of people there.
They're not there for socialization.
Right.
But there was a lot of people.
So there's only a few of us standing on the corner.
We were across the street.
So they were just kind of yelling at us like, you don't know what you're talking about
and stuff like that.
And so it was hard because I've done, you know, I did all kinds of protests for Free
Friday and I did, you know, all the different circuses and everything like that.
So that was just tough because I wasn't ready.
You know, I wasn't ready for this, but it was a learning experience.
So then as we just kept going, we do, it depends on how we're protesting, I feel like.
We usually send out leafletters to talk to people.
We set up a camera.
You can see that on our YouTube.
We set up a camera and interviewed people.
They didn't know who we were, but just asking them like why they why they're here and did
they know that horses are dying and did they know about the cruelty.
So that was good.
So we get, you know, people are going to they tell you to get a job.
You know, it's the same old, you know, stories, get a life, get a job and all that.
But no matter what people say, when we're to us, it's like sticks and stones.
Right.
We're going we're never going to suffer as much as the horses.
So I always tell everyone, you know, even when I'm asking people to call up the governor's
office or call their legislator, just tell yourself it's for the horses and it just flows
out.
It's so much easier.
So I think we do get a lot of, you know, there's a lot of people that say things and I think
Nicole is she's got a got a great line that she uses.
You know, look at any human activity, there's always going to be, you know, human rivalries,
human conflict.
And that goes with animal rights.
Also, there's we've seen it, even though we share values.
There are still people out there that we don't necessarily like.
Right.
But Nicole has a great approach to it.
She says, ask yourself two questions.
Does it help the horses and does it move the mission forward?
And if it doesn't, then don't waste your time on it.
Just don't get on social media.
Don't fight with the people walking by because the person behind them may be the person you
reach.
So yeah, and that's a terrific approach.
I tell my whole team to it's challenging at times.
Right.
You know, you know, I'm sure to just kind of let things go, let things slide.
But it's it's all about the horses in the end.
Right.
And or animals in general.
The truth is on your side.
You can't lose.
So I will remember that.
I mean, it's a it's a terrific philosophy.
Isn't it?
Yes.
OK, so if I am a vegan or someone who opposes horse racing and it's happening in my locality
in where I am, where I live, what can I do?
Can I contact you guys?
Do you have things set up for me maybe to start a protest?
Will you help me in my action?
So yes.
So, yeah, so you can go to our website, horseracingrawlings.org.
If you scroll down on the front page, there's a contact form.
Is it a contact form there?
I think it is.
And then you can email me or find me on social media.
You can email me at Nicole at horseracingrawlings.com.
And then we will set you up with I'll send you out leaflets and posters and we'll help
you with your Facebook event page.
We'll get an event page up on our website.
We'll give you tips and tricks and everything you need so you're not doing it alone.
Yeah.
For your friends.
Yeah.
And, you know, it doesn't just it doesn't have to be just, you know, protesting.
There are other ways to get involved.
Yeah, we do.
Yes.
And also something that our Maryland organizer, Jennifer Sully, has been doing a lot is she
does a lot of outreach at Pimlico Racecourse when it's not even open.
It's one of the Triple Crown tracks.
And it's in a neighborhood, which Saratoga is in a neighborhood too, but not all tracks
are like that.
But they stand with signs and leaflets and they talk to people at the red lights and
they just hand out leaflets and just really just talk to people and have conversations.
The Maryland State Fair, we do that too or any fairgrounds where there's horse racing.
No signs, no megaphones, just talking to people saying, you know, horse racing happens here
and just trying to educate everyone, especially in those subsidy states, but every, you know,
about the subsidies, but just educate as many people as possible.
The more gambling dollars we can take away, the more people that will get upset and will
take that next step to talk to their legislators about it and educate them.
And that's what it's just it's grassroots all the way.
And just so you know, we are winning.
We are winning.
So since the year 2000, this can be found on our website, 43 tracks around the country
have closed.
So the industry is contracting as we talk.
All the metrics are down across the board.
As I mentioned, the demographics are really, really bad going forward.
I had conversations with editors at the Washington Post and the Philadelphia Inquirer and shortly
thereafter, both editorial boards came out to end horse racing, not to reform it, but
to end.
That's a sea change from where we began.
In the beginning, we were told, hey, you guys are you're crazy, you're radical extremists.
You're never going to shut this industry down.
It's too big, too powerful, too much money, too much history.
We are winning.
There's no question in my mind.
And you look at dog racing and where that is, we will be there someday.
And it's just a question of how fast we can get there and how many of these beautiful
animals lives we can save in the process.
Yeah, we should not wait.
You know, those horses are waiting for us to save them to take action.
Six horses every day are dying.
They can't wait any longer.
So if you want to help, please reach out to us.
And Nicole, she's again, she's terrific.
And there are many, many ways to join us.
Absolutely.
Go vegan, right?
And I would like to hear you talk about maybe quickly the situation outside of the US.
I guess for some countries like the UK, horse racing has a bigger cultural value than elsewhere.
What is the situation at the international level?
All horses are suffering and dying everywhere.
That's one of the misconceptions we often hear that the problem is American horse racing.
That's a lie.
They die everywhere.
We have partnered with Coalition for the Protection of Race Horses in Australia and New Zealand,
Animal Aid in the UK.
I believe there's a group in Italy that we've had contact with.
We've had shared actions, haven't we, with them.
But Nicole can speak to that.
Well, they do their own.
They don't have the, from my knowledge, they don't have the FOIA.
Yeah, they don't seem to have access, the same access to information that we do.
They find information, but we do work with them on actions.
We meet up with them a couple times a year to see how things are going on their end and
if we pick each other's brain and have any new ideas.
But yeah, I think the people, the apologists in the American horse racing industry will
say, oh, we need to start doing it like they do over in Europe because there's no horses
dying there, but they simply can't find the information.
They are dying.
They are dying and you'll see during those big races in the UK and in Australia, if you
go on Animal Aid and CPR, you will find that they are reporting on those because they are
getting exposed at that level.
And slaughter, horse slaughter, we didn't talk about that yet.
You can talk about that if you want.
And horse slaughter is happening in those countries too.
So these horses are being tossed away.
You know, three, four, five, six year old horses are being sent to slaughter when they're
no longer useful.
Yes.
I guess they're not profitable to keep alive anymore.
That's the, that's how it's in short, it's horse racing's retirement program as a slaughterhouse.
We estimate that more than half of spent or simply no longer wanted race horses end up
in what can only be described as equine hell.
These are prey animals, slight animals.
And when they get into these slaughterhouses after being trucked sometimes 28 to 36 hours
without food, water or rest, in America we don't slaughter right now currently on US
soil.
So we ship them to Canada and Mexico to be slaughtered.
And they get into those slaughterhouses and the sights, sounds and smells of death are
all around them.
Of course, all slaughter is horrific, but for these slight animals it's even more so
if you can imagine because they are desperately trying to escape.
And often that shot that's supposed to render them unconscious or to outright kill them,
that takes multiple tries because the animals are flailing about.
There's video, undercover video from Canada depicting just that.
And then of course they are shackled and hung upside down and slashed through their carotid
artery, bled out and butchered for their meat.
And yeah, so the bottom line is it's one final profit on these horses' heads.
There's not enough space or money to take care of all the animals that they're producing
every year.
And so this is what happens as the end result.
We're talking multiple thousands, multiple thousands annually of former American racehorses
again landing in equine hell at the end of their so-called careers.
Horses being live exported to Asia for human consumption just like all the horses.
Yeah, unfortunately there's a demand for horse meat in Europe and Asia.
And you know if there's a demand, they're going to find a way to meet that demand.
So we find it as Americans and obviously we're vegan but just speaking for the average American,
the horse meat is taboo.
Right, but in other countries it's the same as eating cows or pigs.
So yeah, that's the bottom line with these animals who are given these whimsical names
and once cheered on to end in this misery, horrible.
Yeah, they need to maximize their revenues at any cost.
They don't care about the cruelty they inflict on animals.
They don't care about creating addiction in their locals and destroying the economy.
I mean there is no redeeming quality to this industry.
Not at all.
Back to your question about the owners and veterinarians.
I mean that just explains it.
They're just a cog in the machine.
They're just a moneymaker and then when they're done they just move on to the next course.
I mean think about this, right?
So I mentioned earlier the big lie and go through the what other sport does this happen.
Imagine an athlete, a human athlete dying in a basketball game or a football game.
Not only would that shock the whole country, but obviously the game would end, right?
Not in horse racing.
They get that dead animal off the track and the entertainment goes on.
Next race, next horse up.
Imagine that.
So it's obscene.
There's no other words to use.
It's obscene to call horse racing a sport.
Speaking of deaths, we hear about that often from the apologists that well human athletes
suffer injuries.
Horse racing kills as many in one day, one single day, than the four major professional
sports leagues in this country have in their collective 400 plus year history.
In one day horse racing kills more than I think three basketball, football, baseball
and hockey.
Three athletes have died in a game in that collective 400 plus year history and horse
racing kills about six every single day.
So let's stop calling it a sport, folks.
Yeah, the more I think about it and the more truly it looks like a symbol of animal exploitation,
the cheering, the obscenity that is visible to all but invisible, the dying in the tracks
like you said and continuing the show at any cost.
I mean, the closest thing to that would be the corrida in Spain, I guess.
Yes.
Yeah, full public display, right?
And I talk about that when we're whipping.
Imagine.
So if you saw someone whipping his dog in the park, you would call 911 and that person
would be arrested on the spot in many states for a felony, animal cruelty.
And yet at the racetrack, it's part of the tradition.
It goes on in full public view.
And let's make no mistake, whipping hurts horses.
It hurts horses.
And I've got quotes on the website from people in the industry.
Of course it hurts horses.
And they're whipping the horses the most at the moment the people are cheering.
They want their horse to win the ticket they have in their hand and they're cheering.
And that's when most of the whipping is happening, those last couple seconds before the horses
cross the finish line.
So they're cheering and they're just in that.
And I know that from doing it myself and being there and witnessing it as a child.
And that was it's a benefit now that I can look back and I always say don't feel bad
because you weren't vegan.
Don't feel bad because you took part.
You're not now.
Don't waste time and energy on that.
Use that to your advantage.
Use it to how you can change people.
Use it to so I know that that's when the horses are being beaten the most is when people are
cheering and they don't see it because they're so selfish.
They just want their horse to win so they can go to the window and collect their winnings.
Well I truly love your optimism even after describing in details what is happening in
the world of horse racing.
I'm coming from this conversation with the sense of you know I can do something about
it and this is not a tragedy.
This can be avoided.
And I guess yeah it's because of your optimism in the face of that evil.
Have you ever met one of those horses maybe saved and cared for in a sanctuary?
We have some people that we work with that have rescued and I get pictures and I get
video so that's really nice.
We have visited stagswarers and had our spiritual moments with these people.
An elegant animal.
Yeah of course.
Hey look at we're in this to the very end and it's horse racing is either going to you
know I'm either going to go first or horse racing is going to go first but you know this
is I've dedicated my life and Nicole has to to ending this and I feel very confident that
we will get there.
And the reason why I'm so optimistic is even on my hardest days and we have hard days especially
when foyers come in and we have to read that that's those are the hardest days.
But then I was I was taking a walk one day I was having a really hard day and then I
realized that for I always use 150 years because that's how old Saratoga race course is a little
bit over that now but for over 150 years these horses suffered in silence and died unnoticed
but because of the work we're doing and all of the people I'm grateful for every single
grateful for you and every person listening and everyone who has joined us follows us
on social media whatever who are opening their hearts to these horses but because of all
of these people that these horses are seen and they're loved and they're fought for
every single day.
So that just gives me hope because people care.
It's you know when we started this it was hard because we were like are people going
to care is this big enough for people to care about does it it's in 38 states so does everyone
get touched by this but I talk to people every single day and I answer my messages all the
time so people feel sad you can reach out to me and I'll make you feel better but these
animals are loved they're seen and they're fought for and I do believe they know it they
know that we're out here for them.
I do believe that you know they know it and I hope that you know that that touches them
so that's gonna make me cry but but it's it is I think that we need to remember that
and and be grateful for all the people around us the other humans that are fighting and
working hard and trying to inspire the ones who maybe are afraid or there's a block you
know to do it to and be their voice.
Amazing I think it's a great message to end the conversation unless you had something
more to say.
No I think that's terrific and thank you for everything that you do.
Yes thank you so much.
Let me thank you for your work your inspiring work and for having accepted to appear on
the show and to share with listeners what you're doing and your passion for fighting
against horse racing.
Thank you so much.
Thank you Ryan.
It's great meeting you.
Thank you everyone for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.
Let's encourage more people to take action.
And thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.