1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,740 Terrorism, violent, criminal, extremist, radical, illegal, those are the kinds of words attached 2 00:00:13,740 --> 00:00:20,340 to the animal liberation front, a global anarchist movement fighting for animal liberation. 3 00:00:20,340 --> 00:00:26,300 If you listen to media outlets or governmental institutions like the FBI, the message is 4 00:00:26,300 --> 00:00:32,760 clear, animal liberation front activists are scary, keep your distance from that dangerous 5 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:34,000 crowd. 6 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:40,040 In order to counteract this dominant narrative, the North American Animal Liberation Press 7 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:47,480 Office was formed in 1994 and to this day the press office takes a proactive stance 8 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:53,440 to communicate the actions, strategies and philosophy of the animal liberation movement 9 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,020 to the public. 10 00:00:55,020 --> 00:01:01,080 To discuss this public relations battle, I have with me Dr. Jerry Vlasak, a press officer, 11 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:07,240 an animal rights activist and board certified trauma surgeon by profession. 12 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,060 Jerry welcome to the show, thank you so much for being here. 13 00:01:10,060 --> 00:01:13,800 Thank you for having me, I look forward to it. 14 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,700 As an icebreaker question, let me ask you directly, should we be afraid of the animal 15 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:20,160 liberation front? 16 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,960 What is so scary about their activism? 17 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:30,160 The only thing scary about the animal liberation front and other clandestine organizations 18 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:35,640 that work to help animals is what they can do to animal profiteers. 19 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,780 Nobody in the animal liberation front has ever harmed another human being and is unlikely 20 00:01:40,780 --> 00:01:42,680 to ever do so. 21 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:44,160 So there's no need to be afraid. 22 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,860 The people that should be afraid are those who exploit animals for profit and who can 23 00:01:48,860 --> 00:01:55,840 see those profits directly impacted by actions of the animal liberation front who exercise 24 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:02,560 tactics such as economic sabotage and direct liberation of animals to attack these industries 25 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,720 that survive off the abuse of animals. 26 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:14,400 Something you mentioned and might sound surprising for most people is that the animal liberation 27 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,840 front is a non-violent movement. 28 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:24,040 So how come there's all of those strong words attached to a non-violent movement? 29 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:34,320 It's all part of the extreme level of brainwashing that occurs amongst our civilization in that 30 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:39,920 it's not considered violence to murder billions of innocent animals every year for trivial 31 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:44,800 reasons such as appetite preferences and style preferences. 32 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:51,880 And yet anyone who threatens to interfere with that very, very violent trade is deemed 33 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:58,120 themselves to be violent as a way to denigrate them and to try to stop them from harming 34 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,040 their economic profits. 35 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:05,000 So if we want to talk about violence, let's talk about the people who abuse animals, who 36 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:11,360 murder millions of animals just so they can skin them and use their fur for fashionable 37 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:12,360 coats. 38 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,640 Let's talk about the violence that allows the killing of billions of animals so that 39 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:22,120 they can satisfy their taste for animal flesh when it's completely unnecessary and in fact 40 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,280 harmful to human health. 41 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,600 These are the violent ones. 42 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:31,480 And to turn around and label people who are trying to help animals as violent is simply 43 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,320 a public relations ploy. 44 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:41,960 Do you believe that our governmental institutions have been captured by the agriculture industry? 45 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,440 Well, absolutely. 46 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,640 Not only the huge amount of subsidies that are delivered by the government to animal 47 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:55,280 agriculture, heavily subsidized industries such as the meat and dairy industries as one 48 00:03:55,280 --> 00:04:01,480 example make it very clear that the government is in collusion with the animal agriculture 49 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:02,480 industry. 50 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:09,240 And to no surprise, these are the wealthy corporations that deliver suitcases full of 51 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,960 cash to our government people every year. 52 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:21,040 So of course they're going to get what they want, which is the subsidization of their 53 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:22,040 industry. 54 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,200 And of course, people in government are just like everybody else. 55 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,200 They're a newer to the violence. 56 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:32,680 They're used to and brainwashed by these industries into thinking that animal abuse is completely 57 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:38,200 acceptable, normal, and the usual way of doing business. 58 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,680 And of course, none of that is true. 59 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:42,680 Yeah. 60 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:48,040 And that gives the feeling that the game is rigged. 61 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:56,760 And most certainly after what's happening right now in Canada with the ag-gag laws at 62 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:06,280 the federal level and how many obstacles we're putting in the way of vegan activists. 63 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:18,520 It feels like the goal post is moving and that we're playing against such strong forces. 64 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:27,380 So yes, civil disobedience is one answer against this issue. 65 00:05:27,380 --> 00:05:31,960 And I think that's the part that makes people anxious. 66 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,000 It's breaking the law. 67 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,480 What would you say about that? 68 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:43,800 First of all, point of clarification, at least here in the States, we use civil disobedience 69 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,880 in a different way. 70 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:52,960 Civil disobedience to the best of my knowledge, at least as applied here, implies breaking 71 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,720 the law, but doing so openly and accepting the consequences. 72 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:02,200 So for instance, if you were to chain yourself in front of a first or something as a statement 73 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:09,400 and obviously break the law, but fully expect to be arrested and accept those consequences, 74 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,040 we would call that civil disobedience. 75 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:16,660 What the underground animal liberation movement is doing, such as the ALF, is by our definition 76 00:06:16,660 --> 00:06:17,760 not really civil disobedience. 77 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:24,240 These are people that are breaking the law and getting away with it for the most part 78 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,840 so that they can be out there to do it again. 79 00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:34,440 And breaking the law to help animals is certainly justifiable, it's certainly commendable. 80 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,600 We support it 100%. 81 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,680 We have supported it for more than 20 years. 82 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:45,400 So yeah, that just is a matter of difference in terminology, though we don't use that term 83 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,440 civil disobedience for what the ALF and other organizations are doing. 84 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,120 And I'm sorry, your original question again? 85 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:58,080 Yes, I just wanted you to comment on that part of breaking the law. 86 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:03,240 And I guess this is what people are anxious about. 87 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:10,840 If you look at every single struggle for liberation, both historically and concurrently in any 88 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:15,920 movement, whether it was against apartheid in South Africa, whether it was against, whether 89 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:24,320 it was for civil rights here in North America, various anti-colonialist efforts in places 90 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:30,680 like Algeria and other places, all of those struggles for liberation included an underground 91 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:31,680 component. 92 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:37,600 And it's necessary in all of these struggles because power is not going to give up their 93 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,200 dominance just when you ask them nicely to do so. 94 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:47,160 They have to be persuaded by a variety of different means and not just illegal means, 95 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,800 but a variety of different means, but including illegal direct action, what we call direct 96 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,260 action. 97 00:07:53,260 --> 00:07:56,800 And so I don't think the struggle for animal liberation is any different than these other 98 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:57,800 struggles. 99 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,240 Unless you're a speciesist and you think that animals don't count nearly as much as humans, 100 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:03,440 which we don't believe. 101 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,680 We believe that animals are just as important as humans. 102 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,240 And so the animal liberation struggle is just like all these other animals, all these other 103 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,520 liberation struggles throughout time. 104 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:16,280 And it will require a component that involves breaking the law. 105 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:22,920 Each of those other struggles has mostly included the use of real violence on, one could argue 106 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:28,640 in self-defense, again, perfectly justifiable in my mind, in our minds, certainly justifiable 107 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:33,080 to use violence to protect yourself if someone's trying to kill you. 108 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,000 You have a right to defend yourself. 109 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:40,800 And animals are being murdered by the millions every day and they have a right to defend 110 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:41,800 themselves. 111 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,040 And if they can't defend them, then we have the right to defend them. 112 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,120 Just like if your child is being abused, you have a right to defend your child. 113 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,640 Well, we have a right to defend animals when they're being abused. 114 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,920 And even though that particular strategy hasn't been widely used in the struggle for animal 115 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,400 liberation, it would certainly be justifiable if it was ever used. 116 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:09,840 Yeah, it is true that most social justice movements have had a component of breaking 117 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,160 the law. 118 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:19,680 And I think this story is not told as much as the part of peaceful protest and such. 119 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:27,780 I was listening to one of your interviews and you mentioned how Nelson Mandela was part 120 00:09:27,780 --> 00:09:32,640 of something like animal liberation front. 121 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:41,720 He was bombing places, he was breaking the law in many ways before being imprisoned and 122 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,240 becoming the Nelson Mandela we know, who we love. 123 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:52,160 But there was this part of it and people don't know about it. 124 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,440 We don't inform people about this history. 125 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:01,800 Yes, not just in Mandela in South Africa, but basically any struggle. 126 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:09,300 People like to quote people who are more peaceful like Martin Luther King and so forth in civil 127 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:10,300 rights struggles. 128 00:10:10,300 --> 00:10:15,160 But there were also people that were breaking the law to make Martin Luther King's name 129 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,000 a lot more reasonable. 130 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,640 And people were a lot more reasonable and willing to talk to Martin Luther King about 131 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:26,960 making some changes compared to say Malcolm X or the Black Panthers and some of the other 132 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,040 groups that were more radical. 133 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,760 But if you look at every single struggle, it's always been that way. 134 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:37,480 Gandhi, Gandhi's always held up as this peaceful person who has somehow achieved liberation 135 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,920 from the British without raising a finger. 136 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:47,020 And yet there were plenty of armed struggle groups going on in India that just made Gandhi 137 00:10:47,020 --> 00:10:50,300 look like somebody that they could deal with. 138 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:53,240 And so every struggle has involved these kinds of things. 139 00:10:53,240 --> 00:11:00,120 There's always some component of those willing to break the law to stop a horrendous type 140 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,080 of oppression against the oppressed. 141 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:05,080 Yeah. 142 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,720 Yeah, it's human nature. 143 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,960 It's the normal current of things. 144 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:17,120 There's nothing shocking about it. 145 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:23,880 Because of this illegal component, I guess it makes your work on covering the actions 146 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:31,040 of the animal liberation front more sensitive because you really have to protect your sources 147 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,720 and be careful of what you report on. 148 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,240 So what kind of measures do you take to do the work you do? 149 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,560 Well, we are not members of the underground. 150 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:45,520 We're not members of the ALF. 151 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,720 What typically happens is that we receive anonymous communiques from the people who 152 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,840 are breaking the law. 153 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,920 And we take those communiques and transform them into press releases and other forms of 154 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,320 social media posts and websites information. 155 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,840 And we broadcast that to the general public and to the mainstream media. 156 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:12,520 We've done hundreds of interviews with mainstream media from Fox News to 60 Minutes to a lot 157 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,020 of other TV shows. 158 00:12:14,020 --> 00:12:19,800 And we basically talk about why people are breaking the law to help animals, what their 159 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,040 ideology is. 160 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:26,000 These are not just people out having a good time breaking the law, becoming vandals and 161 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,000 that sort of thing. 162 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,000 So we explain all that. 163 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,120 And most people are interested and most people are sympathetic. 164 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:35,360 I think when you show people, just the general public, I'm talking about non-vegans, much 165 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,700 less activists, but even non-vegans, if you show them the horrendous amount of animal 166 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:43,880 abuse that's going on behind the scenes and then you explain, well, these people are going 167 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:48,280 in there and trying to stop that by a direct maneuver. 168 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,880 In addition to all the people that are trying to change the laws and educate the public 169 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,080 and do all those other things, then most people are pretty sympathetic about it. 170 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:04,440 You'd be surprised at how many people are accepting of these types of tactics just within 171 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,260 the general public. 172 00:13:06,260 --> 00:13:08,200 And so that's basically the way we carry on. 173 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,680 Most of the communiques we receive are received by email nowadays. 174 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:16,080 I mean, there was a time when we used to get phone calls and letters in the mail and things 175 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,080 like that. 176 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,640 But most of the time we receive these anonymous communiques and we don't want to know who 177 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:22,640 those people are. 178 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,960 We have no idea who it is that's out there helping animals by breaking the law. 179 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:26,960 We don't want to know who they are. 180 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:27,960 It would be dangerous for them. 181 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,480 It would be dangerous for us. 182 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,640 So yeah, we don't know who that is. 183 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,800 So basically that's what we do. 184 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,720 We advertise that actions that are going on. 185 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,280 We let people know what they're doing and why they're doing it. 186 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,200 We talk directly to the media. 187 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:44,920 We talk to other activists and let them know. 188 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,040 And we try to inspire other activists to get out there and do the same thing. 189 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,840 We want more people doing this type of action. 190 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,040 We think it's an important part of the struggle for animal liberation. 191 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,040 It's not the only part. 192 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,240 It's not like we want everybody to do this and do nothing else. 193 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:00,800 But there aren't that many people doing it. 194 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,040 And so we would like to see more people do it. 195 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:08,400 We'd like to let people know that they can do it, how to do it if they want to, and then 196 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:14,360 how to report back to us when they do do it so that we can tell more people about it. 197 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,480 You're based in the US, I believe. 198 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,720 And in the US you have the First Amendment freedom of expression. 199 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:31,480 How important is freedom of expression in order to do the work you're doing? 200 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:37,240 We do enjoy more right to free speech here in the US than other places. 201 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,600 At least for now. 202 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,560 This may all change, of course, at any moment. 203 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:47,120 But for instance, if I was in the United Kingdom where the ALF got its start and where there 204 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:52,600 was been historically a lot more activity involving breaking the law, it's against the 205 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,320 law to advocate for what I'm doing or to tell people that we think you should be out there 206 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:58,320 breaking the law. 207 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,080 They wouldn't allow that kind of speech. 208 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,000 There used to be a group called the ALF Support Group that published a magazine that talked 209 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:10,200 all about the actions that were going on underground and how you could get involved if you wanted 210 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,240 to and that sort of thing. 211 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,240 And the government shut that down and made that illegal to talk about. 212 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:21,280 Many of the animal rights activists that have been arrested on other charges for doing perfectly 213 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,960 legal things like protesting have been given orders that they're not allowed to communicate 214 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,440 in the animal rights realm at all anymore. 215 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,080 They're not allowed to post things on the internet or talk about them in the media or 216 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:39,600 even have contact with people like me or you, there are other animal rights activists. 217 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,520 So it's much more oppressive in places like the UK. 218 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,080 On the other hand, the actions are still going on. 219 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,720 There's other people that are like us that are willing to talk about it. 220 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:49,720 And we do. 221 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,280 We post things from the UK on our website and social media as well. 222 00:15:54,280 --> 00:16:03,080 So yeah, but yeah, we do enjoy a privilege here that allows me to talk to you about what 223 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,560 I'm talking to you about today and to actually not only talk about the things that are happening, 224 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:12,080 but also encourage other people to get out there and do more of it. 225 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:20,840 I think it's important to think about your actions and even your existence as something 226 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,720 pro-democratic in a sense. 227 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:32,480 And you were describing how what you're doing is not civil disobedience, not in the definition 228 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,280 that we know of. 229 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:39,880 But I like to think about it as civil disobedience, whether it is covert or not. 230 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:46,440 And there is a long tradition of breaking the law in the name of your convictions in 231 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,080 the US. 232 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:58,520 And I'm thinking right now of Toro, Henry David Toro, who stopped paying his poll tax 233 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:06,880 because he believed his tax money was funding the American-Mexican War and also the expansion 234 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,520 of slavery in the Southwest. 235 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,880 And he was imprisoned for that. 236 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,640 And that was back in the 1840s. 237 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,920 So there's a long democratic tradition of the people breaking the law in the name of 238 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,600 their convictions. 239 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:30,640 Do you see yourself as being part of that long tradition? 240 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:31,640 I think so. 241 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,920 I think starting with the Boston Tea Party and the founding of this very country through 242 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,480 Henry David Toro and lots of other famous people that have been willing to go to jail 243 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,920 for what they believed in. 244 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:49,360 I think that we consider ourselves part of, as a movement, we consider ourselves as part 245 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:51,560 of that tradition. 246 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:58,440 Breaking laws that are wrong, that are oppressive, that are harmful and violent and standing 247 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,440 up against those laws. 248 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:01,520 Absolutely. 249 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:09,700 And I think we're seeing a lot of that today, but I think we're certainly part of that movement. 250 00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:16,000 So talking about prison, there is a section in your website listing activists who have 251 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000 been imprisoned for their actions. 252 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:26,520 And I want you to tell us more about them and the high stakes and the high price they 253 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,520 had to pay for their activism. 254 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:35,920 Well, first of all, there have been literally thousands of actions that have been committed 255 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:42,560 by ALF and other underground warriors in the United States in the last 30 or 40 years. 256 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,960 And a very small handful of people have ever been caught and even fewer have ever been 257 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:47,960 sent to prison. 258 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:53,760 So it's actually a very, very, very small percentage of people who ever go to prison 259 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,600 for breaking the law to help animals. 260 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,360 That said, there are a few people and we try to support those people. 261 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:05,840 We do our best we can to support people that do go to prison for helping animals. 262 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,680 Currently there are a handful of prisoners that are currently in prison for animal rights 263 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:15,200 activities and we do everything we can to support them. 264 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,360 If you go to our website, we list their addresses, we tell you how you can write letters to them 265 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:22,960 and support them and send them money and that sort of thing. 266 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:28,320 So let them know they're not forgotten, that we hold them in great esteem and that we'll 267 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,000 do everything we can to help them. 268 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:37,040 So yeah, there are, you know, especially with the passage of the Animal Enterprise Protection 269 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,460 Act, which was originally passed and then upgraded a few years later to the Animal Enterprise 270 00:19:41,460 --> 00:19:47,800 Terrorism Act with very inappropriate labeled law for sure. 271 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,440 That does involve primarily sentence enhancements, which, sentencing enhancements, which means 272 00:19:52,440 --> 00:20:00,840 you can get longer prison terms if you're convicted for the same crimes, if they are 273 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,400 able to apply that law under certain circumstances. 274 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:08,200 And it has been applied a very few handful of times, but it hasn't stopped anybody and 275 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:09,560 it won't stop anybody. 276 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,160 People that are willing to break the law and help animals are not going to be stopped by 277 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,480 threatening them with longer prison terms. 278 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,800 And especially since, you know, it's very unlikely that anybody gets caught when they 279 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:21,800 do this sort of thing. 280 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,720 So we're not particularly worried about that. 281 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:31,760 I mean, there was a little bit of backlash after the 9-11 2001 actions that happened 282 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:32,760 here in the United States. 283 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,640 Everybody kind of ran for cover for a little while, but it wasn't long and it wasn't much 284 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,920 and people are as active now as I think they've ever been. 285 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,800 And I don't think for the most part people are, I mean, there are people are willing 286 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,680 to risk their freedom. 287 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:54,480 Obviously, these are very courageous and strong people who are willing to risk their free, 288 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,240 their own freedom to help animals. 289 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,280 And so that shouldn't be minimized. 290 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:07,360 That said, it's not that difficult to avoid, avoid capture and imprisonment. 291 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:13,880 And I don't think we listed the actions that the animal liberation front takes. 292 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:23,960 So can you make a list of the concrete actions that the movement takes? 293 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:29,160 Well, the actions fall under basically two broad categories. 294 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:36,000 And one is economic sabotage, where you try to affect the profits of those who are hurting 295 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,240 animals for a living. 296 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,360 And the other is actually liberating animals and putting them into the returning them to 297 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:46,040 the wild or taking them to the sanctuaries or good homes where they can live out their 298 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,040 lives. 299 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,800 Now, that depends on whether the animals are wild and capable of surviving in the wild 300 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,520 and they could be just returned to the wild. 301 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:58,880 But domesticated animals, for instance, those have to find homes with people or sanctuaries 302 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,120 where they can live out their lives. 303 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:06,600 So basically, liberations and sabotage are the two main categories. 304 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:11,960 There also could be a third category such as intimidation, where people are threatened 305 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:18,520 with various things, including violence, if they don't stop abusing animals. 306 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:23,160 That's probably that's used a lot less often than the other two. 307 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:28,680 As far as concrete actions, there's a concerted campaign here in North America, at least against 308 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,720 the fur industry. 309 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,560 And the form of actions that most typically takes is going to fur farms, of which there's 310 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:42,280 only a few dozen left in North America, and going on to those fur farms at night, which 311 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:50,760 are relatively poorly guarded and have relatively little security and releasing wild animals, 312 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,960 typically sometimes foxes and coyotes and other animals, and releasing those animals 313 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,160 into the wild habitat where they're perfectly capable of surviving. 314 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,040 There have been lots of studies that have proven that these animals can survive on their 315 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,040 own. 316 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,920 They're not domesticated, even like house cats or dogs. 317 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:15,560 They still retain genetically wild genomes and are able to survive in the wild. 318 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:20,760 And so by releasing the animals into the wild, number one, the animals themselves get the 319 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,240 chance at freedom, where 100% of them will be murdered when it comes around November, 320 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,640 December, about this time of year, every year. 321 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:33,880 100% of them are murdered so they can be skinned and their skin sold. 322 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:42,360 But it also significantly impacts the economic practices of those who raise these animals 323 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:46,200 in tiny cages for their entire lives. 324 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,000 So that basically has the effect of doing both things. 325 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,000 It has a certain effect. 326 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,880 It's a form of economic sabotage, and it's also offering a chance at freedom to the animals 327 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:03,080 who are all going to be 100% killed if left to the fur farmer. 328 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:11,160 So this is a typical example of what the ALF can do here in the United States. 329 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:16,560 And again, by concentrating against one industry, it's been very effective. 330 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,000 So that dozens of fur farms have closed after they were attacked by the animal liberation 331 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,880 front or other groups. 332 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,600 So it's an effective form of activism. 333 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,240 We've seen the number of fur farms decrease dramatically. 334 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,200 We've seen the number of animals killed for their fur decrease dramatically. 335 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:40,040 It was in the 4 to 10 million a year range back in the late 90s and early 2000s. 336 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,200 Now it's down to just barely a million in a year, still way too many, of course. 337 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,640 But there have been huge strides made against the fur industry here in North America. 338 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,640 And one of the reasons is because what these people are doing, it's not the only reason, 339 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:54,760 but it's definitely part of it. 340 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,920 Of course, there's also legislation that people have pushed or the sale of fur and the raising 341 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:04,480 of animals for fur is illegal in the entire state of California now. 342 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,000 It's illegal in many other towns and cities and jurisdictions. 343 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,640 So yeah, there's other things that have been involved. 344 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:20,080 But part of that struggle has been with the ALF and other groups that have fought against 345 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,560 the fur farms. 346 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,520 They've also been active against the section. 347 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:31,960 The press office was formed in reaction to a raid on the University of Iowa where 401 348 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:37,840 animals were liberated and a large amount of economic sabotage was inflicted on a laboratory 349 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:38,840 there. 350 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:44,680 And there was nobody like us speaking out to the media, to the general public about 351 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,640 why people were doing that sort of thing. 352 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:53,520 And so we, Dr. Stephen Best, who's a professor at the University of Texas and I, who had 353 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,360 known each other for a while, got together and formed the current iteration of the press 354 00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:02,440 office and have been operating to do that ever since. 355 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,480 Something I want to mention is that other animal rights organizations are quite supportive 356 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,840 of the animal liberation front. 357 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:20,280 They don't adhere to the narrative put out there by most mainstream media and governmental 358 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:21,280 institutions. 359 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:27,840 One example of that is PETA, I think is a good ally of the animal liberation front. 360 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:34,400 So yeah, you enjoy quite a good reputation in the animal rights community. 361 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,920 The animal liberation front is not considered marginal. 362 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,880 Do you think it helps your work? 363 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,720 I actually might take issue with that to some degree. 364 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,040 PETA has always been a supporter of underground direct action. 365 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:51,760 In fact, they often serve as a sort of de facto press office for the animal liberation front. 366 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:58,200 Back during the 1990s when Operation Bite Back was going on, it was a concerted campaign 367 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,160 against the fur industry here in North America. 368 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,960 Frequently PETA were the people who were speaking out about it and who were showing videotapes 369 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,320 back in those days because that's how they recorded it, recorded video footage of these 370 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:12,320 fur farms. 371 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,280 And so PETA was very involved and yes, Ingrid Newkirk in particular has always been a supporter 372 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,760 of underground direct action. 373 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:25,200 Other groups, not so much though, for instance, some of the really even bigger groups like 374 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:31,080 Humane Society of the United States, for instance, are very much opposed to illegal direct action. 375 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:38,960 In fact, they won't even allow the press office to distribute information at their conferences 376 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:45,040 that they hold because they're 100% against illegal direct action. 377 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,280 And part of that, I think, or at least most of it, I think, stems from the fact that they 378 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:56,200 don't want their donors refusing to send them money because they're advocating for illegal 379 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,920 action and some people are like that. 380 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,800 I was involved with Sea Shepherd Conservation Society for a number of years. 381 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,800 In fact, I was on their board of directors. 382 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,520 I was one of their officers. 383 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,720 I was on their ships on a number of different occasions. 384 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:18,360 And after going up to the ice floes of the Gulf of St. Lawrence and confronting sealers 385 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:22,920 and not just taking pictures of them clubbing the seals, but actually standing between them 386 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:29,640 and the seals and refusing to let them kill the seals, there were altercations and we 387 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,360 created a disturbance and we were arrested. 388 00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:38,960 And as a consequence, I was actually asked to step down from Sea Shepherd because they 389 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,240 had at least one or two of their major donors told them, we're going to quit giving you 390 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:49,680 money if you don't disassociate yourself from this guy who was actually standing there and 391 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,240 confronting the sealers and having physical altercations with them. 392 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,520 So I think some organizations are more supportive than others. 393 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,000 And I think a lot of grassroots activists, people such as yourself, they're out there 394 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:09,320 pushing the general message of animal rights and how we can be better and more effective 395 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,880 activists, I think, are at least willing to talk about what we talk about and are at least 396 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,920 willing to say this is part of the struggle. 397 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,840 It's not the only part of the struggle. 398 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,520 It may or may not even be the most important part of the struggle, but it is a part of 399 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,520 the struggle, just like it's a part of any struggle for liberation. 400 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,280 And I think that's the most common narrative. 401 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:34,520 But there are people when money's at stake that will say what they feel like they need 402 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,240 to say in order to keep that money rolling in. 403 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,240 It's interesting. 404 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,680 I did not know about it. 405 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,680 It's a bit of a sensitive question. 406 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,920 Don't answer if you don't want to. 407 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:52,160 But how do you get your funding for the press office? 408 00:29:52,160 --> 00:30:01,320 And I guess the actions that the Animal Liberation Front takes don't require enormous funding. 409 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:08,880 But in terms of those who find themselves in prison and such, are there any initiatives 410 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,000 to pay for their legal fees and things like that? 411 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,840 Well, kind of a couple part question. 412 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:23,040 As far as funding for the press office, that's just done from local activists, volunteers, 413 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,480 people that share our website or our social media and decide to send us money. 414 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:28,480 It's very minimal. 415 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:29,480 We don't get a lot of money. 416 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:30,960 We have a very small budget. 417 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,760 At times, I've stepped up and funded it when it needed funding. 418 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:36,760 None of us take a salary. 419 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,280 None of us are paid. 420 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,840 We don't have expansive offices anywhere. 421 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,400 We don't own any buildings or anything like that. 422 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,840 So we're all volunteers. 423 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:52,560 A lot of times, we do a lot of traveling to different animal rights conferences that do 424 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:59,600 allow us to either speak at the conference or distribute materials at the conference. 425 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,360 And so most of that is funded out of our own pockets. 426 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,540 So yeah, we have a pretty small budget that is supported. 427 00:31:06,540 --> 00:31:08,000 We do have some supporters out there. 428 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,400 We have a mailing list with several thousand people on it. 429 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,740 Some of those people send us money. 430 00:31:12,740 --> 00:31:14,600 So that's how we get our funding. 431 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,680 As far as those that are out there doing it, we don't send that money, by the way, to the 432 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,220 underground, the ALF. 433 00:31:20,220 --> 00:31:21,220 We don't know who they are. 434 00:31:21,220 --> 00:31:23,800 So we wouldn't know where to send the money. 435 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,040 And it would be illegal to do that. 436 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,480 I mean, it would be like sending money to Hamas or something. 437 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,800 I mean, we can't actually send those people money. 438 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:32,800 Where do they get their money? 439 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:33,800 I don't know. 440 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,200 I think a lot of them just dig it out of their own pockets or borrow it from friends or relatives 441 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:39,200 or something. 442 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,960 I can't really speak to that. 443 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,840 But again, it doesn't take a lot. 444 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:48,200 I mean, it doesn't take much to drive to a fur farm and climb through the woods for a 445 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,560 little ways and use a pair of bolt cutters to open up some fences and let animals free. 446 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:59,240 It doesn't take a lot to throw a brick through a first door window or other forms of economic 447 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:00,560 sabotage like that. 448 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,400 So I don't think there's a whole lot of funding that's necessarily out there for those kind 449 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:06,400 of guys. 450 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,700 And what was the last part of the question? 451 00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:09,700 Something about... 452 00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:12,640 The legal fees of activists that are... 453 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:13,640 Legal education. 454 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:19,080 Again, there are so few people that actually go through the legal system, but we've always 455 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,240 been there to help people if we can. 456 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,600 We certainly help people with initial legal expenses. 457 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,000 We can't always cover all of their legal expenses for everything they do. 458 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,840 But there are other lawyers in the movement that are animal rights people themselves who 459 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,760 oftentimes step forward. 460 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:40,960 There's a group in Portland called the Civil Liberties Defense Committee that's a group 461 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:47,040 of lawyers out there that are pro animal rights and will also often help people at no expense. 462 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:52,360 So there are lawyers in the movement that are available to help people. 463 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:58,560 And you mentioned how you were like Hamas, but there are some major differences. 464 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,160 First of all, you're nonviolent. 465 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,160 Also you're not centralized. 466 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:08,000 There's no leadership for the animal liberation front. 467 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:15,400 The animal liberation front is decentralized and is nonviolent. 468 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,840 You're not killing people. 469 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:28,920 So it's sad to see that the animal liberation front is marginalized and perceived even legally 470 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:36,680 as much of a threat for domestic security as a terrorist group like Hamas. 471 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,840 Yeah, but that's the way the world works. 472 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,360 The African National Congress was considered a terrorist group. 473 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,160 There's been lots of other organizations out there that have been considered terrorist 474 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:54,600 groups just because whoever is oppressing the people that they're fighting for or oppressing 475 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,200 the animals in this case, it threatens the status quo. 476 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,600 And so that term is thrown around a lot. 477 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:02,600 But you're right. 478 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,600 The animal liberation front is pointedly nonviolent. 479 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,040 They're pointedly anti-violence. 480 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,720 They're trying to stop violence. 481 00:34:11,720 --> 00:34:13,760 They don't promote violence in any form or way. 482 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,760 They're anti-violent. 483 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:22,120 But again, as far as the federal government's concerned, I testified at a Senate hearing 484 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:29,760 back in 2005, I believe, and one of the head FBI people stood up and said that the animal 485 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:37,360 rights organizations were the number one domestic terror threat here in the United States. 486 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:43,800 And that's despite things like the killing all those people at Waco and all the other 487 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,320 right-wing militias that are out there that are actually harming people. 488 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:54,320 And yet they decide to frame the animal rights movement as the number one domestic terrorist 489 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:55,320 threat. 490 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,320 And again, it's a threat to those profits. 491 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,040 It's a threat to big agriculture. 492 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:04,720 It's a threat to big businesses that then filters down to the FBI, who then has to step 493 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:07,920 up and say, OK, well, we'll make them the number one terrorist threat. 494 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,240 That way we can try to stop them. 495 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:12,520 But despite all that, they haven't had much effect. 496 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,840 And as you mentioned before, the ALF in particular is a decentralized organization. 497 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,680 There's no central leadership. 498 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:24,640 There's no card that you carry or a secret handshake or dues that you have to pay every 499 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,320 month or anything like that. 500 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,840 It's a group of people that get together and decide they're going to act. 501 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,800 And they don't know who the other group next door is. 502 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,240 And they don't know who anybody else is. 503 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:37,320 And therefore, it makes it very, very difficult for law enforcement to infiltrate them. 504 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,760 And that's why they've been able to function for 30 or 40 years in this country with, like 505 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,680 I said, very, very, very few people ever going to prison. 506 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:55,040 And I read some of the transcripts of back in 2005 of those FBI agents talking about 507 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,200 the threat that the animal liberation front poses. 508 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,320 And it's hilarious. 509 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:09,120 It is truly, you know, you read the language they use and you think that this is like an 510 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,440 existential threat. 511 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,360 It's like we're living in two different realities. 512 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,520 And yeah, it's weird. 513 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:19,520 It's strange. 514 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:20,520 We are. 515 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,560 We're an existential threat to their profit. 516 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,600 And that's all they care about. 517 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:26,880 We are a threat to their property. 518 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,960 If people quit drinking milk and people quit eating animal flesh, people quit wearing fur, 519 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:37,080 then yeah, their profits are going to go down and they don't like that. 520 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,680 Don't mess with the money. 521 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:51,640 So we were talking about funding and you also have an online e-commerce shop where you sell 522 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,840 the book, many books and different interesting items. 523 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:04,880 But in particular, the ALF strikes again collected writings of the animal liberation front in 524 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:15,360 North America, which is like I said, a book on the many actions that were taken by the 525 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,280 animal liberation front. 526 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,680 I have not read the book yet. 527 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,760 I have ordered the book and I'm waiting for it. 528 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:32,040 I'm excited about it because, you know, it has 700 pages and I'm very curious about the 529 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,920 different stories that I'm about to read about. 530 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:42,400 So can you maybe highlight some of the stories that are present in the book? 531 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:48,720 First of all, the book is a book that was edited and compiled by someone named Peter 532 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:54,960 Young who is one of the few people who ever did go to prison. 533 00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:03,080 He liberated tens of thousands of captive mink and destroyed a lot of materials that 534 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:10,000 were integral in their exploitation and eventually went to prison and served a couple of years, 535 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,040 I believe, in prison. 536 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:16,000 But once he got out, then he started speaking about what he had done and why he had done 537 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,280 it and was able to inspire a lot of people, still inspires a lot of people. 538 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,100 He's also written a number of books that talk about what he's done and what other people 539 00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:25,100 have done. 540 00:38:25,100 --> 00:38:28,120 And this is sort of the latest compilation that he's come up with. 541 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:35,440 And it's a lovely compilation of stories about people that have been involved in the underground 542 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,600 and some of the things that they've done. 543 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:46,760 There's great stories about how Rod Coronado sunk half of the Icelandic whaling fleet in 544 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:47,760 the harbor. 545 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:52,120 He basically crawled onto their whaling ships in the middle of the night and opened up these 546 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,480 valves that let the seawater flow into the ships. 547 00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:01,720 And there's great pictures of the ships sitting there underwater in the harbor and unable 548 00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:04,640 to go out and kill whales any longer. 549 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:11,040 There's a really poignant story about a raid at a hospital called Harbor UCLA Medical Center 550 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,360 in Southern California. 551 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:20,440 And it's interesting, it was December of 1983 when somebody, a very early ALF cell, broke 552 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:26,960 into that facility and liberated 12 dogs that were being experimented on and eventually 553 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:27,960 would have been killed. 554 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:33,320 And the reason that it's particularly interesting to me is that was December of 1983. 555 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,480 In 1984, I started my surgical residency at that exact same hospital. 556 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:44,640 And so six months earlier from my stepping into the door of the hospital, the Animal 557 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:49,000 Liberation Front had liberated 12 dogs from that facility. 558 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,640 Now, I wasn't even vegan then. 559 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,040 I had not come to the animal rights struggle at all. 560 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:56,040 So it wasn't me. 561 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,080 I didn't have anything to do with it. 562 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:07,720 But no, it was just a great story and one of the earlier stories of the underground. 563 00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:11,280 There's too many stories to talk about, but it's a great read and I've enjoyed reading 564 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,280 it and I'm sure you're going to enjoy it a lot when you get it. 565 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,360 And the other good thing about the book is it has a lot of how-to information. 566 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:23,640 So it has a lot of information in there about how to do research and how to come up with 567 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:29,000 a plan and how to execute a plan if you're interested in helping animals directly by 568 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,440 either liberating them or stopping people from abusing them that are abusing them. 569 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:38,200 So it's really a great resource and I think everybody should read it if they get the chance. 570 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:39,880 You don't have to buy it from us. 571 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,640 You can get it on Amazon or anywhere else. 572 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:43,640 Yeah. 573 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:51,240 Amazing, you know, we're recording this just before Christmas and this is my Christmas 574 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:56,560 gift that I'm offering to myself. 575 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,600 So you mentioned a bit about your life story, Jerry. 576 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,160 So I'm really curious how you found yourself. 577 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,460 You mentioned how you were not vegan. 578 00:41:07,460 --> 00:41:15,760 So you were born in a normal American family like most vegans who ate meat at the dinner 579 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:22,800 table and was not so much interested in the animal rights movement. 580 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:27,160 For my family, this is just very alien to them. 581 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:34,380 So how did you find yourself from that to becoming vegan to then becoming an officer 582 00:41:34,380 --> 00:41:42,800 for the press office of one of the most radical, and I'm using the word radical in a good 583 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:53,240 way, a radical journalistic outlet for one of the most radical animal rights organization 584 00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:55,440 out there, movement out there. 585 00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:01,440 Yeah, like you said, I grew up in a very normal household, grew up in Texas, ate animal flesh 586 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:06,960 my whole life, never really gave it any thought, was brainwashed like everybody else. 587 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,040 In addition, I also went to college and then medical school in Texas. 588 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,080 And the issue never really came up. 589 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:21,440 Even in medical school, there was nothing on nutrition or any thoughts given to animal 590 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,440 agriculture or animal experimentation. 591 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:29,140 We didn't do any animal experimentation in medical school. 592 00:42:29,140 --> 00:42:33,760 There was a single lab where it was optional and you could go there and watch them kill 593 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,640 a dog by injecting it with different drugs and see the effects on its physiology. 594 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,440 But that was it. 595 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,540 It wasn't like we were dissecting animals or doing anything like that at all. 596 00:42:45,540 --> 00:42:50,880 And then when I got into my surgical residency, that was at Harbor UCLA that I mentioned earlier, 597 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,360 there was animal experimentation going on and I knew about it and I participated in 598 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:59,120 it because I was told to and I thought, okay, well, they tell me to do it, I'll do it. 599 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:05,240 And I wrote a lot of papers about what I did and I really burnished my academic career. 600 00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:09,560 And it just never occurred to me. 601 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,560 I was just completely brainwashed. 602 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,320 It never occurred to me that anything was wrong. 603 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:19,920 Although I did notice that despite all the research on animals that was going on, it 604 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,680 wasn't making any difference for helping people. 605 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:30,960 Everything I discovered or wrote about or looked at in the lab ever made things better 606 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,120 for any human being. 607 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,920 So there was already this kind of a crack in the facade, like why are we killing these 608 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:43,720 animals when we could be using all this money and time and effort to be helping people. 609 00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:46,440 And the reason I became a surgeon is I'm a very practical person. 610 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:47,440 I want to fix something. 611 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,080 If I see something broken, I want to fix it. 612 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:56,120 I'm not somebody that wants to treat diabetes for 20 or 30 years and see people gradually 613 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,640 succumb to the disease or maybe get better. 614 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,040 I like to fix things right away. 615 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,720 So if you have an appendix that's ruptured, I want to go in there and take out your appendix 616 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:08,760 and you'll be fine as frogs here in another few days. 617 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,880 And lately, the last 20 years of my career, I spent as a trauma surgeon. 618 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:17,200 So you come to me with a gunshot wound to your abdomen or a stab wound or you're in 619 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:18,760 a terrible car accident or something. 620 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:19,760 I fix it. 621 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,320 That's what I did. 622 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,880 So I look at what works and I apply what works and try to make things better. 623 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,440 Well, I sort of applied that same idea to animal rights. 624 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,040 Once I did get involved in animal rights and I got involved when I read a couple of books. 625 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:40,280 One was by a philosopher named Tom Reagan called The Struggle for Animal Rights. 626 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:45,040 And the other one was a book called The Diet for a New America, which was written by John 627 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:51,080 Robbins, who was the heir to the Baskin and Robbins ice cream fortune. 628 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:57,880 And he wrote a book about each form of animal exploitation and animal agriculture and how 629 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,000 the animals suffered, but also how it was bad for human health and also how it was bad 630 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,000 for the environment. 631 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,440 And when I read all that, why didn't I know all this? 632 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,800 I mean, it was all well researched and documented and referenced. 633 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,000 It wasn't just some guy's opinion. 634 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,640 I mean, it was factual. 635 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,760 And being a factual person, I looked at all that information and I said, why didn't anybody 636 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:19,760 ever tell me about this? 637 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,560 How could I live for 30 years and not known about this information? 638 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,520 And so I immediately said, I don't want any part of that. 639 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:32,480 And so not only did I become vegan right away in a few days, I also started talking to my 640 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:33,800 patients about it. 641 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,000 I was in practice in surgery at the time and I started showing my patients. 642 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,040 I go, you know, here's the facts. 643 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,920 And I gave them information that came from Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, 644 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,600 for instance, an organization based in Washington, D.C., which is great about talking about human 645 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,600 health issues and a meat based diet. 646 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,200 And I said, you know, you can do whatever you want when you go home. 647 00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,240 But while you're in the hospital and while you're in your my care, I don't want you smoking 648 00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:02,240 cigarettes, you know, don't want you to heroin. 649 00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:03,240 OK. 650 00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:06,360 And I don't want eating animal flesh because it's not good for you. 651 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,200 And so you go home, you do whatever you want when you go home. 652 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,080 But while you're here in the hospital and in my care, this is what I would like you 653 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:13,080 to do. 654 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,680 And most people were receptive, but I would give them information to read about it. 655 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,480 And I don't know if anybody ever went home and became vegan or not. 656 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,320 I don't know, because I didn't really see them for very long after that. 657 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,120 Usually once I get them fixed up and they're on their way and I never see them again. 658 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,560 So but that was kind of how I got started. 659 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:33,680 And as I learn more about the struggle for animal liberation, I was exposed to everything 660 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:42,440 from, you know, handing out pamphlets on how to go vegan to doing even demonstrations with 661 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,960 PETA and things like that. 662 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:50,280 And at some point I became exposed to the animal liberation front and people that were 663 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,040 working illegally to help animals. 664 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,400 And when I looked at everything, I thought, well, what's the most effective? 665 00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,440 What what pound for pound? 666 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,800 What gets you the best results? 667 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,800 And I thought illegal direct access did. 668 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,120 And on top of that, nobody else was talking about it. 669 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:07,480 And very few people were doing it. 670 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,360 So I thought, well, maybe this is my niche. 671 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,000 And so I thought there's not much nobody else is talking about it. 672 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,000 Nobody. 673 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,900 And I had some credibility coming from the medical field. 674 00:47:16,900 --> 00:47:22,160 So I said, you know what, maybe I'll use my credibility and step up and start talking 675 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,160 about this and maybe people take it seriously. 676 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:29,360 And maybe we can get this to gain wider acceptance. 677 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,040 And that's pretty much what I've been doing ever since. 678 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,040 That's amazing. 679 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,680 That's truly an inspiring journey. 680 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:42,400 And have you been inspired by the progress of the animal rights movement and the vegan 681 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,600 cause throughout those past decades? 682 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,920 Oh, tricky question. 683 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:53,600 I think I think, yes, we have done some good things and we have made some progress. 684 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,200 And I think there are more vegans around today than there were then. 685 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:03,800 And I think that we have laws now against animal abuses that we didn't have then. 686 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,040 So yeah, we have made some progress. 687 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:11,320 And animal rights is something that's more widely talked about now. 688 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:12,440 And most people know about it. 689 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,640 If they're not vegan, they at least know about it. 690 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:19,080 If they haven't become vegan, it's not so much that they don't know about it. 691 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:24,640 But with online media now, there's almost no reason that somebody would not know about 692 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:25,640 animal abuses. 693 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:30,040 And when I was becoming vegan, I mean, it was basically you read books or pamphlets. 694 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,560 You didn't really have Instagram or TikTok or anything like that, where you could watch 695 00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:41,640 these videos of animals and what they go through in the factory farming arena and so forth. 696 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,640 So I think we have made a lot of progress in that regard. 697 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:50,160 On the other hand, and we are killing fewer animals for fur, for instance. 698 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,600 Circuses are banned in a lot of cities and even states now. 699 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,120 So I think we have made some progress. 700 00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:02,720 On the other hand, more animals are dying every year than they were when I got started, 701 00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:08,960 because there's more people and there's more animals being killed mainly for food than 702 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:09,960 there were then. 703 00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:15,320 So other times I'm not as optimistic and I don't know how this is all going to end. 704 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:24,880 I personally think that we're on sort of a trajectory that human populations will eventually 705 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,840 decrease significantly, whether it's from another pandemic or whether it's from something 706 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,440 else, environmental destruction and so forth. 707 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:41,660 And I think this is a pretty pessimistic viewpoint, but I don't think we're going to see the complete 708 00:49:41,660 --> 00:49:48,840 abolishing of animal exploitation until there's a lot fewer human beings on the planet. 709 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,760 And the good news is that may not be that much longer. 710 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,680 The bad news is I don't know that we're ever going to see this vegan world where we still 711 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,640 have 10 billion people walking around the planet and everybody's vegan. 712 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,560 I just don't think that's going to happen. 713 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,880 So I hate to be a pessimist, but I just don't think that's going to happen. 714 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:12,640 On the other hand, we've all got the opportunity and we all have the duty, I think, to keep 715 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:18,920 doing what we can to minimize or decrease the amount of animal exploitation, animal 716 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,280 suffering and animal torture and killing that's going on. 717 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,280 So that keeps me getting out of bed every morning. 718 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:32,920 So you don't believe in the revolution of lab-grown meat? 719 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,880 Well, I think all those things will happen. 720 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,440 I think it'll be much more widely accepted. 721 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:48,000 I think that we will be immense amount of progress in the future, but I don't think 722 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:54,800 we're going to ever get rid of certainly factory farming and animal exploitation for food. 723 00:50:54,800 --> 00:51:01,720 I think that other factories will come together before we ever get there and have an effect 724 00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:04,720 on human overpopulation. 725 00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:10,000 That's a controversial stance even within the animal rights movement, I think. 726 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,560 But I've never been shy about saying what I think. 727 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,440 Well, I'm curious about something. 728 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:23,680 I've had discussions with various vegans and animal rights activists, and sometimes 729 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:28,640 I get a feeling from them of misentropy. 730 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:38,120 And it's understandable, they see humans being so cruel to animals on a daily basis. 731 00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,480 But you're a doctor, you like people, you don't hate them. 732 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:47,680 But what do you say about that feeling arising in people? 733 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:55,920 Because I feel like just from the basis of mental health, it's not very helpful for 734 00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,760 your own happiness to think this way. 735 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,960 But what are your thoughts? 736 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:10,960 Well, I don't think it's a coincidence that we're seeing an increasing amount of psychiatric 737 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:16,800 illness in our culture, people suffering from depression and all these other mental health 738 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,200 disorders. 739 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:26,160 And I think a lot of that is the brainwashing that we go through as a result of living in 740 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:32,320 a capitalist dominated society where the people with all the money decide what messages we 741 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,720 hear and how we act and what we eat and what we do. 742 00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:40,080 And I think we get that from a very early age. 743 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,400 And I think it does go against the human grain at some point. 744 00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:49,840 I mean, most people accept the brainwashing and do okay with it. 745 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:55,440 I've always said that, you know, 80% of people, you can tell them what's going on, you can 746 00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:59,600 show them what's going on on factory farms, you can show them what's going on in the fur 747 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:00,600 trade. 748 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:05,800 They just don't care because they've been so brainwashed that they it's not because 749 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,920 they're human, it's because they're a brainwashed human. 750 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,960 I don't think there's anything specifically about being a human being that makes you that 751 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:14,960 way. 752 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,600 I think it's the fact that you're brainwashed from the time you're two years old to believe 753 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:24,160 that it's normal to abuse animals, whether it's to eat them or to see them in circuses 754 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,560 and rodeos and everywhere else. 755 00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:33,840 And so the other 20% of people have been brainwashed, but they're able to break out of that like 756 00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:38,880 I was and like you were and like so many people that we both know are. 757 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:44,440 And that's why I think when we do outreach, if we do a cube or if we hand out white vegans 758 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:48,080 or we do that thing, I think, you know, eight out of 10 people aren't going to care, they're 759 00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,760 going to throw the pamphlet away or they're going to walk right by the TV screens. 760 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:56,600 But 20% of people will at least think about it. 761 00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,080 And they may not change right then and there, but they'll think about it. 762 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:04,320 And they have the potential for change like you and I did and like so many other people 763 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:05,480 have. 764 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:10,600 So that's that's kind of, again, what keeps us going is that we think there are those 765 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:11,600 20% of people. 766 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:16,440 And if we could get 20% of the of the country or the world to be vegan, then you're right. 767 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:21,800 It would be a it'd be a tidal wave and it would push along a lot of those other 80%. 768 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:23,400 And in theory, it could happen. 769 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:24,400 It could happen. 770 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,800 I just don't I just don't know. 771 00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:31,760 Like I said, I've been doing this for 30 years now and I just haven't seen it yet. 772 00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:33,560 And maybe it's coming in the next 30 years. 773 00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:34,560 I hope so. 774 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:43,720 Well, what worries me is countries like China, where, you know, the the governments are not 775 00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:47,240 at all democratic. 776 00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:52,280 And there's this growing middle class and demand for meat. 777 00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:59,480 And I feel like there's almost no actions around, you know, in the field of animal rights 778 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,000 and veganism in those countries and regions. 779 00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:10,480 That's where you have most people and the greatest demand for animal products. 780 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,200 Absolutely. 781 00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:21,000 The only the only the only light in that in that scenario is that historically, places 782 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:25,280 like that have looked to the West for inspiration. 783 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:29,640 And so, for instance, if we could get fur banned in the United States, we get fur banned 784 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:30,640 in Western Europe. 785 00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:36,280 Well, yeah, they wear a lot of fur in China, but they wear fur because we've a con and 786 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:42,320 Dior and all these other and Fendi's are pushing for and if those companies are no longer pushing 787 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,600 for, they're not going to go out and start wearing fur anyway. 788 00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,600 They look to the West to see what people in the West are doing. 789 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:55,040 So if we were to ban fur in North America and Western Europe, then the fur for animals 790 00:55:55,040 --> 00:56:00,080 killed for their fur in China would also go way down if not go away altogether. 791 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,520 And you could look at the same way in the animal agriculture. 792 00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:09,400 We we find ways to get around the current system of animal agriculture, like you said, 793 00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:13,960 with cultured lab cultured meat and things like that. 794 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:20,920 If people in China and India and these other highly populated areas see what we're doing, 795 00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,520 then they're going to want to emulate that, just like they're emulating us for the way 796 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,360 we kill pigs and eat them. 797 00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:27,360 They emulate that. 798 00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,520 The reason they're doing that when they when they have the ability to is because we've 799 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:34,280 shown them by TV commercials that that's the thing to do. 800 00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:35,840 So there is a way to change it. 801 00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:36,840 You're right. 802 00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:42,440 They're not going to be a bunch of activists locking themselves to the fur stores in China 803 00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,240 because they'll throw you in jail and throw away the key. 804 00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:46,240 Right. 805 00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:47,240 I mean, they're they don't they don't care. 806 00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:48,400 They've got no rights over there. 807 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:50,600 So that's not going to happen. 808 00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:55,160 But on the other side of the coin is they may look to us and see what we're doing and 809 00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:56,640 want to emulate that. 810 00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:01,120 And we could make progress in that respect. 811 00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:10,480 So a question I had was what you know, you mentioned how the press office is active on 812 00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,640 various social media. 813 00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:22,680 I enjoy your posts on Instagram and listeners will find links in the description below. 814 00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:31,860 What should we be on the lookout for 2024 in in different communicates that the press 815 00:57:31,860 --> 00:57:34,680 office will will put out? 816 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:44,760 And you mentioned that there is this campaign around for are we going to see some consequential 817 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,760 actions in the future? 818 00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:48,760 We're certainly hoping so. 819 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:52,640 I mean, there there is a resurgence of activism against the fur trade. 820 00:57:52,640 --> 00:58:00,680 There's an organization called the Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade, CAFT.USA, that is 821 00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:08,280 sort of pushing this sort of regional, if not global, effort to all of us pull together 822 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,120 to to ban the fur trade. 823 00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:15,960 And one of the reasons they chose fur and one of the reasons that fur is so important 824 00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,800 is that you have to pick the battles that you can win first. 825 00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,000 And then once you get that, then you move on to the next one. 826 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:26,680 So Fog Raw, for instance, is another one that's in the wings and another campaign that a lot 827 00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,840 of people are working on, because that's that's an easy one. 828 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:30,940 We can win that. 829 00:58:30,940 --> 00:58:32,840 We can win the fur campaign. 830 00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,600 We can win the Fog Raw campaign. 831 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:40,000 So we pick the just to go up and say, oh, well, we're going to shut down McDonald's 832 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:41,000 or something like that. 833 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:42,560 I mean, you're not you're not going to do that. 834 00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:44,320 OK, that's not going to happen. 835 00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:50,500 But you can find these low hanging fruits, if you will, and campaign against them. 836 00:58:50,500 --> 00:58:55,160 So and often where there's an above ground campaign, such as the Coalition to Abolish 837 00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:59,800 the Fur Trade, which is an above ground campaign targeting certain companies, they've already 838 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:06,760 seen more than a dozen companies agree to stop selling fur after they've been targeted 839 00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,720 in above ground protests and other actions. 840 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:15,000 But oftentimes the the underground, the ALF and other underground groups, when they see 841 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:20,720 an above ground campaign going on like this, they'll step up and add to that campaign. 842 00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:27,280 We saw that explicitly in the Stop Huntington Animal Cruelty campaign back in the late 90s, 843 00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:31,520 early thousands, where there was a campaign against Huntington Life Sciences, which was 844 00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:36,600 an animal testing company that was killing 500 animals a day, testing things like oven 845 00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:41,120 cleaner and shampoo and drugs and all kind of things on animals. 846 00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,840 There was an above ground campaign that focused on putting that lab out of business. 847 00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:49,680 But the underground also stepped up and and and found ways to get involved as well. 848 00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:56,280 So we we were expecting to see that kind of action going forward in 2024. 849 00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:01,600 Perhaps people from the underground stepping up to join the campaign to abolish the fur 850 01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:02,600 trade. 851 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,800 Yeah, so stay tuned, people. 852 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:16,200 And what as a parting question, what would be your message for vegans who might be tempted 853 01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:21,240 to take action or are hesitating? 854 01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:26,560 What could you say to encourage them to take action and do more than just be vegan? 855 01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:27,560 Absolutely. 856 01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:32,960 I think if you're of the persuasion that illegal direct action is a good strategy, that it's 857 01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:38,040 an effective strategy, as we do, as we believe, then I would encourage you to get involved. 858 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,440 And that might mean things like not being involved in above ground animal rights. 859 01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:47,200 It might mean not showing up at protests and maybe not doing things because you want to 860 01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:48,880 stand on the radar. 861 01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:54,480 But it's not don't do it for glorification because you can't tell people that you're 862 01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:55,920 doing it or you'll get caught. 863 01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:00,120 It has to be something that you do because you believe in it and because you think the 864 01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:01,120 animals deserve it. 865 01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:07,340 If I was an animal in a cage and I was going to be killed, I personally would want somebody 866 01:01:07,340 --> 01:01:13,200 that was trying to do something about that right away, not somebody that was, you know, 867 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,080 trying to pass legislation or something else. 868 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:19,880 I mean, so if you're of that persuasion, then educate yourself. 869 01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:24,440 There's lots of resources on our website, animal liberation and press office dot org. 870 01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:28,760 And of course, there's lots of ways to find more information about that by the book that 871 01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:34,640 you were talking about from our website or from Amazon. 872 01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,280 Lots of ways to learn more. 873 01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:42,400 There's a there's a book called The Blueprint also available on Amazon or our website that 874 01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:43,400 talks about the fur trade. 875 01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:47,240 It has a listing of all the North American fur farms in the entire country. 876 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,560 It has their addresses and their phone numbers and where to find them. 877 01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:53,160 And it also has hints on on how to raid them. 878 01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,800 So lots of ways to educate yourself out there. 879 01:01:55,800 --> 01:02:00,000 Go out there and get involved and then shoot us an anonymous email and let us know about 880 01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:01,000 it. 881 01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:02,000 Amazing. 882 01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:06,880 So, Jerry, thank you so much for having answered my question. 883 01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:11,840 Did you have something to add before we stop the recording? 884 01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:13,320 Thank you so much for having me on the show. 885 01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:19,920 I appreciate your enthusiasm and your willingness to get this information out there. 886 01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,720 And I hope I was of some use to you. 887 01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:23,720 Thanks. 888 01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:24,720 Of course. 889 01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:29,260 This was an amazing, interesting, truly fascinating conversation. 890 01:02:29,260 --> 01:02:37,740 So thank you so much, Jerry, for having accepted my invitation and for having answered my questions. 891 01:02:37,740 --> 01:02:39,920 Thank you, everyone, for listening. 892 01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:45,720 Before you go, there is a question I wish I had thought to ask Jerry during our conversation. 893 01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:51,800 The question is, why do you think animal rights and the vegan cause are not more appealing 894 01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,200 to a conservative audience? 895 01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:59,920 Would you attribute it to a failure of activists to advocate for animal rights in conservative 896 01:02:59,920 --> 01:03:00,920 circles? 897 01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:07,760 I had the chance to ask him this very question by email and his response will surprise you. 898 01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:11,480 I invite you to read his answer in the description below. 899 01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:17,640 Also, if you have your own opinion on the topic, I invite you to share it with me. 900 01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:21,320 Once again, thank you so much for being a friend of this show. 901 01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:40,360 Take care and see you next week.