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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report. If you are an

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ethical vegan and you care to do more to end animal abuse, then this podcast is for you.

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Every Tuesday, discover passionate, thought-provoking and inspiring vegan leaders from all walks of life

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who will inspire you to take action. Today we are going to talk about minks and their

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horrendous exploitation for making fur coats and accessories like lashes. No, you did not

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misheard me, this abomination exists and this is how PETA denounces it in a blog post.

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In Australia and other countries, mink lashes have become popular. Their mink fur, that's been shaved

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off a mink's body, that are then glued in strains to a human's eyelashes for a fuller and thicker

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look. Mink lashes are often sold as 100% cruelty-free or safely collected from a free-range farm

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or even taken only after the minks have been brushed. Minks are the most commonly farmed

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fur-bearing animals in the world. If you purchase a mink fur coat or a set of mink lashes,

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you're supporting an industry in which animals endure immense fear, stress, disease, parasites

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and other physical and psychological hardships. To discuss this topic, I have with me Malcolm

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Klimovic, a professional photographer and an animal rights activist who got in legal troubles

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for denouncing this industry. Malcolm, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

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Malcolm Klimovic Thanks for having me, Ryan. I'm looking forward to telling our viewers about the

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mink farm industry and the fur farm industry in general. One point I'd just like to make for the

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viewers is, despite the claims of minks being brushed or their fur collected humanely, the

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those lashes, the fur always comes with the skin attached after it's rubbed off the mink's body.

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So it's pretty horrifying and cruel, in my opinion.

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S1A3L001 Well, let us start by maybe getting listeners familiarized.

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Familiarized? I'm losing my English. Sorry. I will edit that out. With minks, can you give

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us an idea of what kind of animals they are? Because I feel like people don't have a clear

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understanding. We know what a ferret is and minks resemble ferrets, but they're far from being ferrets.

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Give us an idea of what is a mink.

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Malcolm Klimovic So minks and ferrets, I believe they're both in the weasel family.

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They're similar. Minks are semi aquatic animals. So they spend, you know, I think like 60 or 70%

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of their time swimming around in the water and like wetlands. If you actually look at minks feet,

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the fingers or the digits are actually webbed so they can swim. They've evolved that way

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to be close to water. Obviously, on fur farms, they don't have access to that. So

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they're denied their natural instinct to swim. In the wild, they travel about 10, 20 kilometers

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per day at least. And in a fur farm, they don't have that kind of access to like freedom of

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movement or being able to do what they want to do. I've not heard of free range mink farms. Usually

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factory farms and the cages are about the size of a couple sheets of paper big. So the farms will be

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pacing back and forth. Whereas in the wild, they're just going to be swimming or burrowing,

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doing the kind of natural stuff they love to do, you know, foraging or hunting for food.

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Yeah, they're very kind of like more solitary animals. But on fur farms, they'll cram up to 10

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dozen of these animals together in cages. So on a fur farm, they're actually they'll have

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what's called a cannibalism stage during the growth season of the minks where they'll actually

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attack each other or, you know, mutilate themselves from boredom and frustration. Whereas in the wild,

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they're not doing any of that kind of stuff. Usually they're kind of more on their own.

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Yeah, they're beautiful natural animals. I've seen minks out on camping, on camping trips.

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You know, they're very, very just like normal creature, just like any other that, you know,

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don't deserve to end up on a horrifying factory farm. So

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yes. So where can we find them? They're present in the wild in North America, and in Europe,

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I think.

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Yeah, I think the main ones that I know for the North American minks, which are native to

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all of North America, Canada, the US, so you can find them in any kind of natural wetland. A lot

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of the times the European minks are actually the farms import North American minks, and then they'll

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end up going into the wild population and, you know, bringing different diseases and stuff that

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aren't natural to Europe. So you see stuff like during COVID, they had infections with some of

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the mink farms there. And I think in Denmark, they actually had to call all of the mink in the

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country, and then they banned for farming because of these zoonotic diseases, whereas maybe you

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won't see the exact same stuff here. But yeah, they're very, like they're supposed to be in

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North America, you see them all over the place here when they're out in wetlands.

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And I remember, I think I've only seen one mink in the wild in my life, and it was a white, it had

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a white fur. They must come in different colors. So how do farmers, because I think they try to

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have like a uniform color to make the coats and accessories. So do they select them? Do they use,

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you know, selective breeding in order to get minks of only one color or something like that?

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So yeah, the color, I'm not 100% sure of their process of selection. But I do know from what

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I've seen, there are fully white minks, fully black minks, gray minks, and I'm sure they probably

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have, you know, everything in between. But definitely, I think the predominant ones are

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full colored. And these minks, you know, have been bred only in captivity for around 100 years. So

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they're not domesticated like other farm animals like our pig or cow or chicken, these animals are

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very wild. They want to engage in their natural behaviors and stuff like that. But I do know one

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interesting fact about the colors of the minks there. I remember reading somewhere, you know,

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the Animal Liberation Front is a group that will do things like release minks into the wild.

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Sometimes if they're not able to, they'll find the white minks and they'll dye their fur with

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non poisonous dye like non toxic dyes that the farmers can't use them as a form of economic

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sabotage against the mink industry.

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That's amazing. That's genius. And a final point about minks, and maybe listeners will find it a

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bit silly, but they're cute. They're actually very cute. So it adds to the level of

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you know, how can you be so evil toward a creature that looks so cute?

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Yeah, actually, it makes when I was in the fur farms there and doing my video recordings of them,

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they actually remind me very much of cats. They're kind of a similar size, a bit smaller,

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maybe a bit longer, but their behaviors resemble cats quite a bit like they'll lay on their backs

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with their bellies out and they'll like communicate to each other and just kind of roll around and

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it's kind of horrifying the way people have the disconnect between you know, like a companion

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animal and these wild animals. Whereas you know, people care more about your companion animal and

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if it's a wild animal somehow gets put into some category in their minds where you could treat them

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poorly. So you know, imagine, you know, if you're looking at a picture of a mink farm instead of

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minks and there's just filled with cats, how people would feel a little bit different.

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And how did you, how did you get got interested in minks and the exploitation of things?

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Well, I used to live in Kitchener, Ontario, as part of an animal rights group there and

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one of my friends one time we just, they lived out in the country. And we took a ride out to

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a mink farm and actually got up close and I looked through the fence and I could actually see the

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minks. And you know, at that moment, I made a promise to myself that I'd do everything I could

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to stop that. It was horrifying to me. So we started doing protests at that mink farm during

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the day with signs and stuff, we'd have the media come. I tried to raise awareness about it and then

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I went further with my activism eventually after I found that wasn't having much interest in

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just doing these protests in the country. And those farms are located in rural areas? Is it

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the same as like a pig farm or? Yeah, it's all rural areas. The only case I can remember of one

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being kind of inside a city was Kitchener Waterloo. They had a mink farm, I guess at some point on the

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outskirts of the city, which was farmland and then as urban sprawl took more and more of like

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natural and wildlife land away. This one particular area near the mink farm became very affluent,

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they'd built like, you know, semi mansions, there is very wealthy people that live there.

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And they didn't like the smell of the mink manure, because it's, I found the smell is very intense

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and like nauseating, to tell you the truth. And they lobbied the city, I think, to close this farm

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down and then it shut down at some point because wealthy people didn't like the smell. But they

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probably, you know, in their closets, probably had mink coats at the same time, which is very

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conflicting ideas. Same with pig farms or big slaughterhouses. The smell is absolutely

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horrendous. I never entered a slaughterhouse or a pig farm, but I once was nearby one. And

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the smell, you know, it's just, it gives you tears to your eyes. So can you give us an idea, and you

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brushed off on that before, of the, you know, conditions in which those minks are in?

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Yeah, the fur farms there are pretty horrifying places. I'll kind of backtrack there for your

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listeners, so you get an idea of like, why and how I went into mink farms. So I saw a documentary,

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probably around like 2014, 2015, called Insight Fur, which followed activists from

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I believe it was Norway, Norway. They visited hundreds of fur farms with their cameras and they

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were recording, you know, the horrifying conditions there. And they made a documentary called Insight

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Fur, and it got huge media attention there. So it was, you know, in the public conscience very much,

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because it was constantly in the media, it got debated in parliament. At some point,

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the media started to get a little bit more interested in the fur farms. And so I went

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into the media, it got debated in parliament. At some point, that footage helped lead to a fur farm

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ban in that country. So I wanted to recreate that here. I didn't want to reinvent the wheel and

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start like some kind of new activism. I wanted to do something that had been successful, at least

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somewhere else. So I decided to do, you know, a public inquiry into five mink farms in particular

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in southern Ontario. So I went on different occasions, you know, these farms have basically

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a barbed wire fence around the property. The fence goes into the ground so that the minks can't burrow

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underneath if they escape. The fences are often electrified. They have alarm systems on them.

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So if you touch them, it could call the farmer or police officer. They also have, you know,

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security cameras everywhere, infrared cameras to watch. Some of these farms have guard dogs on them.

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On one occasion, I was chased away by a guard dog. It was a pretty horrifying experience.

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Lennon This sounds like a prison. You're describing a prison.

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David Yeah, these places, you know, it's a prison for minks, for animals. And then inside the fence

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there, you have these long sheds. And I don't want people to have any illusions here. But these places

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are, you know, factory farms. It's not nothing free range, nothing nice. These animals don't have

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access to anything. Once you get inside the sheds, they're they're wire cages. They look like a cage

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you'd catch a raccoon or like a wild animal with to relocate. They're about the same size. And

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they're stacked like, thousands, tens of thousands side by side, they're raised up. These animals

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never leave the cages. They're born in there and then they die in there. The farmer feeds them like

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a slop of food on top of the cage that the way they eat is they have to stand up in the cage and

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just like a gooey meat from the top of the cage. I was in these farms, you know, you're supposed to

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change the food a few times a day by the Ontario agriculture regulations. But like, obviously,

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that's not happening on these farms. When I was there, the food is kind of rotted. It's infested

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of bugs. These animals have to eat that. And then at the same time, you know, they stand on wire

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constantly. So they have no other place really in the cage to, you know, rest. Their paws actually,

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in some cases become deformed from standing on wire constantly because they're not supposed to do

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that. And then they defecate in their own cage. The feces are supposed to fall through to the bottom.

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And I guess the farmers are supposed to clean it up, you know, every day or something like that.

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But that's not definitely not happening on these farms. You can see from the videos that I shot,

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some of the manure is piled up from the ground about two feet back up to the cage. There's these

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sludge pits of urine filled with maggots and, you know, bugs and stuff like that. It's just

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the stench, you know, the toxic fumes coming from the feces and from the urine is like

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the most nauseating, horrifying thing you can imagine. That's what sticks with me every time

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I go into the country and I smell the feces and stuff like that, it kind of triggers these

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horrifying memories. And these animals, you know, they spend their whole lives in these cages. So

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they don't engage in natural behaviors like burrowing or swimming. Like I said before,

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they end up getting, I think it was called zucosis, which is a stereotypy behavior or

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stereotypical behavior that's abnormal for animals that they don't usually engage in.

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You see these behaviors in places like zoos where animals, any kind of animal can't roam freely,

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which includes like pacing back and forth in the cage, mutilating themselves, you know,

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chewing off their own limbs, attacking each other, rubbing their bodies against the wire cages until

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they're raw and bleeding. It's because of frustration and boredom because these animals

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absolutely have nothing to do in there. By the law, the Ontario, from the Ontario Minister of

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Agriculture, these animals are supposed to have what's called an enrichment in the cage, which is

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nothing more than like a piece of wood on a string or maybe a golf ball, something that the animals

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can manipulate so that they don't engage in these behaviors. Like imagine you're in a prison, they

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give you a golf ball, that's all you have for your whole life to do anything with. And you know,

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the these farms, a lot of them weren't even offering these to animals, they had nothing in

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their cages. And you know, the food falls through into the cage and it mixes with their feces and

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these animals are eating that and sleeping in it. It is a horrifying, it's worse than hell,

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in my opinion, worse than a puppy mill. At some point, they get slaughtered in order to get their

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fur. How does that happen? So for different animals, it's slightly different. So for makes

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in particular, they have like a cart that they'll bring with them. And it's hooked up to carbon

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monoxide. So they basically will grab the minks out of these cages with these big leather gloves,

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you can't hold them make they'll bite you right away. So they have to have these thick gloves

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because they're trying to be attacked and they're trying to see their lights, they throw them in the

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box and they suffocate. Basically, they have no air, they have carbon monoxide and they suffocate

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these animals. Foxes in Canada, your viewers may be surprised to learn that the euthanize them with

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electricity, the electrocute foxes to death, they'll put an electrode in their mouth and one in their

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rectum, and then the electrocute them. And that's considered humane in Canada. I don't know,

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a single person in the world that would allow that to happen to their companion animals, the way of

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euthanasia and considered humane. It is horrifying. It's illegal in many places around the world.

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Canada is way behind on animal welfare laws and all that kind of stuff needs to end. It's not

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humane in any form or sense of suffocation, electrocution and school.

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And the reason why they use such sadistic ways of slaughtering minks and foxes is because they

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want to preserve the fur. Is that a good assumption?

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Yeah, that's probably one of the main reasons. Also cost, they want to keep costs down so they

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profit. These whole operations are not there for animal welfare, they're for the farmer to make

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some money for profits. And let's talk about the fur. It is considered a luxury item and

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it baffles me that some people look at that fur and think luxury instead of abuse, oppression,

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torture, slaughter. How do you explain that disconnect? How do you explain that in 2023,

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we still have people in denial of where fur are coming from? I can understand, you know, dairy and

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meat. But fur, I feel like it's way up there in public perception of this is bad. Like, I think

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animal rights activists have done a great job at relying the message that this is particularly bad

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practice. And I think most people are aware of that. But how do you explain that disconnect? And

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how is it that there's still a market for that fur?

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Well, the market's getting smaller, which is good news. You know, activists, celebrities, politicians

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are fighting the fur trade all over the world. But at the same time, you have, you know, these

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luxury brand fur products, you know, the fur products, the fur products, the fur products,

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these luxury brand companies, like number one enemy is Louis Vuitton, owned by LVMH. They spend,

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you know, millions of dollars promoting their brands and promoting fur as luxurious. So,

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you know, how powerful advertising is, like when you go to Super Bowl ad or something like that,

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it's obviously going to influence people. If you see some famous rapper, like actress or celebrity,

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like Kim Kardashian or somebody coming out with a fur coat, these people want to emulate, you know,

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wealth and fame. So they want to be like these people. Another thing that's interesting about

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that is in the 90s, and like before that, full length fur coats were very popular. It was very

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a class thing too. If you wanted to show that you're wealthy, you'd have a big long fur coat.

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I think the same kind of still holds true today, but not as much. Regular people, you won't see

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them wearing full length furs because of the cost. And also people do associate it with cruelty.

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Around the time of the 2000s, I would say the fur industry tried to reinvent itself. So they got

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rid of, a lot of designers got rid of the full length furs. They started incorporating things

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like fur trim, fur pom poms, little fur decorations onto clothing so that it was more consumable by

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the average public. I think a lot of people too don't understand the cruelty that happens on fur

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farms. Not everybody has had an experience like me. Not everybody's seen videos of the inside of

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a fur farm. Sometimes people think, you know, the hair is brushed off the animal or it's collected

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humanely in some way, shaved, but it's not, it's not like a sheep or something like that.

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The fur always comes with the skin. And another thing too, these luxury brands are,

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I guess activists have been targeting them specifically in the last, I think three years.

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So you're seeing designers like, you know, Saks, that's Avenue, other designers in a Gucci going

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fur free and not from the goodness of their hearts, but because of pressure campaigns.

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Organized by activists like the CAFT, the coalition to abolish the fur trade has been very

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instrumental in organizing activists globally to target one designer at a time. So, you know,

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see activists instead of going to all sorts of different fur stores, we target one designer.

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And then it's a huge amount of pressure for these designers to drop fur. We did that a few years ago

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to the brand Redsac, who your listeners may be familiar with. They owned over 20,000

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stores in Quebec, Ontario, one in New York. And we targeted them nonstop with store disruptions,

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protests. We had email blockades, phones, apps, doing demonstrations at the owner's homes and

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in front of the rich mansions. And, you know, just constantly keeping on them to drop fur.

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And eventually Redsac went for free. Again, you know, none of these people are doing it from the

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goodness of their hearts. It's because people are coming to these protests supporting the anti-fur movement.

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So we need more people to come out. And then as we're doing that, we're educating the public,

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everybody that walks by our protests, you know, they can hear a chance, they can talk to us.

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We give them a flyer. They see the signs. Then they can act, you know, email the company,

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tell them to go for a free or call them or whatever. We had a lot of people supporting

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us during the Redsac campaign. And, you know, things are changing. So hopefully public opinion

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keeps shifting against the fur industry and against animal cruelty.

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You mentioned the owners and the big brands driving this business. But a focus of mine

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is talking about the workers in those factories or farms. Have you met them? Do they fit the

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profile of like slaughterhouse workers, you know, poor people who are usually immigrants or minorities,

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and they're the ones doing the dirty job of slaughtering minks and, you know, keeping them imprisoned?

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Yeah, I have not met any workers myself. They're not as prolific as like say a slaughterhouse worker.

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Slaughterhouse workers, you know, it's a huge industry, way bigger than fur. Fur is kind of a niche industry still.

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And I think it's usually a farmer who would hire, you know, their friends or somebody close to them in the community.

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They do often hire very vulnerable people. There's actually a documentary that I'm in called Ending Real Fur.

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And the director interviewed one person that was an ex slaughterhouse worker who used to work, I believe, for his uncle.

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And, you know, he's had trouble having employment elsewhere. So he had to work at fur firms for a long time.

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He himself says it's horrifying. And they do hire, you know, vulnerable populations of people,

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people that, you know, if they do try to be whistleblowers, maybe the police wouldn't believe them,

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that kind of stuff. And, you know, these workers are just like slaughterhouse workers, these employees,

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these people get, you know, post-traumatic stress disorders and stuff like that.

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From, you know, having to kill hundreds of animals, you can't do that every day and, you know,

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end up having like a clear conscious or like a sound mind after that. It takes a chunk out of you.

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Like myself, just visiting these fur farms for a couple hours a time, it still sticks with me for

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the rest of my life. Every time I smell that like manure or like drive by one of those places,

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I have memories that are pretty horrifying. So I can't imagine what these workers have to go

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through in the film and ending real fur. So the worker at the fur farm talked about this particular

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mink named Gandalf, and he was, you know, he had to call the mink and he asked his uncle if he could

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keep that one mink as a pet. And he said, sure. And then he came back to an empty cage that had

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been killed and turned into a coat for 30 bucks. Yeah. And it adds to the layer of, you know,

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frustration and evil of that whole industry because it's a business around, you know, luxury.

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And the clients are very wealthy people. The brands are very powerful and influential. But

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at the end of the, you know, at the bottom of the pyramid, you have those workers who are

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vulnerable from vulnerable populations. You know, there's something perverse to it. It adds to the

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whole social inequality aspect of this industry. And yeah, there's absolutely no redeeming quality

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to the fur industry. So you mentioned now a few times that you had firsthand experience of

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infiltrating a fur farm, well, a mink farm. So can you describe that experience? Did you do it

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several times or was it just one time? And can you describe how did you infiltrate that farm? And

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what did you see? Basically what happened? Yeah, so I went to five different mink factory farms in

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different regions of Ontario. I'd seen footage from inside some of these farms from other sources.

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I wanted to kind of go into these farms and record so many different farms that if I shared

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the footage with the authorities and with the public, that nobody could say that you know,

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it's one particular farmer doing this to these animals because I saw the same neglect and criminal

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animal, you know, neglect and cruelty at various farms that there was a standard in the industry.

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So basically I would drive out to these farms in the evening and I would come back later that night

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after I kind of scoped it out and I would just approach the property. They're often surrounded

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by, you know, like farm fields and stuff like that, like you're way out in the country, there's

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nobody around, it's pretty quiet. It's actually really easy to get up close to these farms

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other than, you know, going over a fence and like avoiding some of the security. When I went,

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nobody was really doing that but now there's probably more security within the industry.

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I heard that they hired some expert from the states which does security for the fur farms

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there to come to Ontario and I know the one fur farmer that took me to court, he said that he had

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hired night guards and stuff like that. I never encountered that but I think that's a good

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thing, apparently, you know, the farmers are spending money on that now. But, you know,

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all these things can be avoided if you know what you're doing. You can still get into these places,

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still record or rescue animals or whatever activists want to do. Basically I would just like

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find a weak point in the fence and hop over and then I'm inside the farm. Just, you know,

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the doors on the main sheds are open. You could actually, even if you wanted to videotape from

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the outside, most of them, yeah, you can enter. There was one I went to that was like a state-of-the-art

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facility that had been built like a couple of years before my investigation there. That one was

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completely locked. You'd have to break like a door to get in and I didn't want to, you know, I never

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damaged anything. I never vandalized anything when I was there. I would just like hop the fence,

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enter the farm. That one particular one I filmed just from the outside because the

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cages are exposed to the outside and they had like, I said they had like air conditioning there

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and, you know, all these, the cages are brand new so they weren't rusted like the other farms.

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But what I did notice is that those animals in the state-of-the-art facility still engaged in

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those stereotypical behaviors, swaying back and forth, breaking their teeth, chewing the bars,

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that kind of stuff. So it's not the fact that some of these places are decrepit. That's just like

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extra cruelty. But, you know, even if you have a state-of-the-art facility like that, that's

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brand new, that has the enrichments, that has everything, these animals still show that they're

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suffering through these stereotypical behaviors. You know, some of these places do have like guard

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dogs, which I encountered to get chased off the farm. My guard dog had to run back to my jeep

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to get away, which was a really horrifying experience. I hope nobody has to deal with that.

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But yeah, it's just you go out at night, you know, the farmers are asleep. Their houses are

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usually pretty far away from the mink part of the farm because, you know, they don't want to smell

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that manure and stuff right next to their house, I'm sure. Yeah, and they're all kind of similar.

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They all kind of have the same kind of operation going on, just fences around them, big long mink

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sheds. People, they want to find these places, they could go to thefinaldale.com, which has a

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list of addresses of mink firms across North America, which is updated every few years.

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Also, looking on a satellite image on Google images, you can see very long rows of mink sheds.

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It's very kind of a unique image on Google satellite images. So if you want to find a place

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like that, you could look on that and kind of see how to enter the firm.

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Amazing. I will add that link in the description below. So you go there at night, you don't meet

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anyone else. Like you said, you never met a worker of that industry. And you don't vandalize,

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you don't break anything. You just look and document, film, take, you know, produce some

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footage of what is happening inside. Do the minks notice your presence?

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Yeah, the minks will definitely be aware that you're there, especially at night, because you

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know, I have a big flashlight or LED light on my camera to record. It's funny that you mentioned

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that one of the first articles that came out about my investigation in the media, they always had a

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spokesperson from the fur industry talking about me and said that I was traumatizing the mink with

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the flashlight somehow. These animals I was recording were literally sleeping and eating

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food with feces mixed into it. You know, the horrifying things they do to these animals,

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each year, you know, 90% of these animals are going to be suffocated to death with carbon

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monoxide gas. And they accuse me of harming the animals with a flashlight, which is insane.

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But yeah, these animals do vocalize to each other. They interact with each other. Sometimes if

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they're not in the cannibalism stage, they'll kind of snuggle together and sleep together if they're

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babies. But yeah, they do definitely recognize that people are there. So just like a cat or a

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dog, they'll like same as any other animal. Have you ever felt like freeing one of those minks and

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getting away with it? I think anybody that's animal rights activists maybe thought about rescuing an

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animal at some point. You know, of course I did, but that wasn't my purpose to go to these firms.

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Unfortunately, it was one of the most heartbreaking things I had to do is to walk away from those

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places and leave them there. But my only hope at the time was that the OSPCA, the Ontario Society

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for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, would step in and, you know, shut these farms down for good

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so that generations and generations of these animals wouldn't have to go through something

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like that. Unfortunately, that's not what happened. The OSPCA, I think, did visit some of these farms,

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but no action is taken. Actually, after I took these recordings to Animal Justice, we created

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basically a legal complaint documenting each instance of all my videos of specific laws or

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statutes that were being broken, also the codes of practice that the fur industry places on themselves,

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broken dozens of times again and again by multiple farmers. I know in other countries that have done

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this, you know, the authorities actually closed down these farms. They take the animals out of

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there. They charge the farmers criminal activity, this and that. But in my case, that didn't happen.

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Actually, at the same time, my investigation was going on. Mine was illegal. It was a public

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inquiry. There was a legal operation going on by Last Chance for Animals at the Mailbank fur

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farm in Guelph, Ontario, where they had an employee hired by the farmer who was actually an LCA

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activist. So they stayed there for a few months and they documented, you know, everything that was

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happening to these animals. The same stuff that I saw, but it was all done in a more legal way.

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And that farmer ended up getting charged and convicted of animal cruelty. And I think he only

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had to pay a very small fine. So, you know, they got it out in the media there. So it was good in

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that way, but the laws are way behind. The penalties are too weak to prevent farmers from

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doing that. The profit motive is too high. Even though this guy went through, you know, a criminal

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trial or whatever, and he got convicted of animal cruelty, he still has this mink farm. Who knows

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what's happening to these minks? The one most horrifying part of that investigation was that

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there's minks there that obviously were in such bad medical condition, they should have been

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euthanized. Like they're, their muscles sticking out of their bodies. Just gross stuff. And this

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farmer just said, just leave them, just let them die naturally, which means basically let them

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suffer until they die. So this guy is a horrible, horrible person. He should be in jail. And now

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because of egg, egg laws like Bill 156, those kinds of investigations are illegal. Things like

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mercy for animals, any kind of PETA or whoever had to undercover employee filming animal cruelty,

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and they brought it to the authorities, that person would be charged with violating 156.

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And they'd have to pay a fine or maybe a criminal penalty. I don't remember all the penalties, but

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the farmer definitely won't be charged anymore because of that statute. Well, I want to talk

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about the ag, ag laws. But first, let's dive in your legal adventures, the legal consequences you

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had to suffer for, again, as a reminder for entering those farms in the middle of the night, not

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interacting with anyone, not vandalizing, just taking pictures, not even taking, you know,

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rescuing a mink, which would be considered stealing by those people. So for that, you have been

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persecuted by, I think, the state. And tell us about when you knew about it, when you learned

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that you were being persecuted and how long it lasted and what were the charges. So give us a

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bit of details of your legal troubles. Well, that's a long story. I'll try to condense it as much as

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possible here. But yeah, so I did the investigation into five different mink farms. Three of the

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farmers actually charged me with break and enter. They're in different regions. So what happened,

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I'd have like a hearing, I went to Oshawa, one in Collingwood, one in

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one in Collingwood and Kingston. So every time I'd have to go to court, we'd have a huge rally and

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there would be media there. So it was good in that way and getting the word out, I'd always get like

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an interview with the media and people would learn about the cruelty of these farms. But you know,

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it's a huge stress to me. I was able to luckily raise, I think, like about $70,000 for my legal

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defense because one of these charges did go to trial. The other two got downgraded. One was a

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trespass charge that I was convicted of, which is basically nothing. I didn't have to pay a fine or

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do anything, no probation. The other charge in Oshawa got dropped completely. And then one of the

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last farmer took me to a full criminal trial, which was done online. PETA helped me get a lot

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of supporters and the court had to play it on YouTube. So a lot of people around the world

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actually saw this trial, which was good. The argument they used, well, I'll explain something

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so it's the viewers here. So a break and enter is basically entering property, but you also have to

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commit another offense. You can't just break and enter, go into a place and that's a crime. That

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does, it's not a thing because, you know, if we walked in somebody's door and then walked back out

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or something and you didn't do anything, it's really harmless. It would be considered like a

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trespass under the law, which is, you know, for people that aren't going onto farms, it's like

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usually a $65 ticket. You could spend a night in jail, but if you do it under the ag gig

378
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:40,880
legislation now, you can pay up to $20,000 or something like that for doing that. At the time

379
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:46,640
that didn't exist, so I was, you know, able to do these investigations without worry, I thought,

380
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,760
until I got charged with a break and enter. So they were trying to say, yeah, the break and

381
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,800
enter, there has to be another crime, like, I don't know, stealing stuff usually for breaking

382
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:01,280
down. You break into something, you steal something, vandalism, kidnapping, whatever, right?

383
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:06,400
But I did none of those things. They tried to say I did mischief, which was under the law is defined

384
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:12,800
as the reasonable enjoyment of someone's property. And the farmer was saying that he got, I guess,

385
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,760
an email, a phone call and something on social media saying they didn't like what he was doing.

386
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:23,680
And he tried to say that because he hired security guards, he had a financial cost to him.

387
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,920
But this was all after, you know, what I did had nothing to do with,

388
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:34,560
directly to do with my investigation. So the court found me, you know, not guilty because I

389
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:40,080
hadn't committed any other crimes. They didn't think that me going on to the farm was sufficient.

390
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:45,040
There was no loss of revenue to the farmer whatsoever. Every mink that was in that farm is,

391
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:50,800
you know, probably gassed and skinned. And the farmer made money from it. So I didn't cause him

392
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,960
any financial damage. I didn't damage any property or do anything. So they weren't able to show there

393
00:40:54,960 --> 00:41:01,120
was any other crime other than me trespassing. And I got found not guilty, which was huge,

394
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:07,520
because it was set up, I think, one of the first legal precedents like that in Canada, the activists

395
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:12,320
could use all over the country. Unfortunately, now it looks like there's going to be federal

396
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,280
ag-gag bill passed and that was put into the parliament by the Conservative Party.

397
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:24,960
So that was my trouble. Also, at the same time as these break and enter charges were happening,

398
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,360
they were charging me, they were able to put conditions on me. So I wasn't allowed to leave

399
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:34,720
the province. I wasn't allowed to travel within certain regions within the province.

400
00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:41,520
I got civilly sued by one of the fur farmers for like $20,000 for mental anguish or something.

401
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:46,560
That ended up going away because my lawyers were some of the best in the world for animal rights.

402
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:53,360
I had three vegan lawyers, four vegan lawyers as my counsel, animal justice was helping.

403
00:41:53,840 --> 00:42:01,280
So it was a big, long time that took about three years of me going to different courthouses.

404
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:08,160
Preparing with lawyers, preparing with expert witnesses, just traveling around,

405
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:14,880
organizing demonstrations at courthouses. So it was really taxing on myself to engage in all these

406
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:20,160
legal troubles. I won't recommend it for everybody because you do get burned out after that.

407
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:27,200
But at the same time, I did generate dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of media stories

408
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,400
against the fur industry every time we have one of these protests or demonstrations at a courthouse.

409
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,840
The media would be there to listen to my story. I think that did turn public opinion in Ontario

410
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:44,480
against fur quite a bit. We used to protest at the North American Fur Auction in Toronto.

411
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:53,120
By the time all these media stories were coming out, they lost their… they didn't go into bankruptcy,

412
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,840
but they went into creditor protection status, which is almost similar to bankruptcy. They don't

413
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:02,480
hold auctions anymore. And it was the second largest in the world. Basically, every fur farmer

414
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:07,120
in Canada would send mink pelts to this auction. They don't do them anymore, which is huge. I don't

415
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:12,080
know if it's directly because of me, but I'm sure the media stuff, at some point, their creditors

416
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,560
are like, oh man, this stuff's losing money and public's turning against it. And people are going

417
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:23,120
into these fur farms and doing this and that. So that was one win. Also, to note the fur farmer

418
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:28,480
that took me to trial, he closed his fur farm shortly before the trial started and no more minks

419
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:35,840
are going to be killed by that guy. Luckily. In preparation for this interview, I read some

420
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:44,480
of the articles that covered your legal case. And all I could think of is this is a case

421
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:57,760
of a circus. This is a joke. And one of the points that you talked about that judges and

422
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:10,080
lawyers would bring up is, oh, but he was harming the minks. His presence there was in some way

423
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:21,360
harming the animals. And like you mentioned, the fact that they are treated so badly and then

424
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:30,080
slaughtered in the worst possible conditions to have the arrogance and I would argue the madness

425
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:40,160
of saying that you were the one harming them by just filming those poor creatures.

426
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:48,720
It just felt completely, I felt a disconnect with the logic of the whole thing. It's like

427
00:44:48,720 --> 00:45:00,160
those laws don't make any sense. And we need the big judicial reform in terms of how we think about

428
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:06,240
animals and their wellbeing, because this is just stupid on a whole other level.

429
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:13,840
I think with that, with people saying that I harmed the animals in some way by witnessing

430
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:19,920
them suffering. I think Johnny Depp said it best is like, if you don't like pictures of animal

431
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,240
cruelty, you don't stop the pictures, you stop the animal cruelty. So that's my thoughts on that.

432
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:30,800
That's a good way of putting it. Okay, let's talk about the AGAC laws.

433
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:38,240
I covered the topic with Liz White, the leader of the Animal Protection Party of Canada.

434
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:46,160
And it is considered one of the biggest threat in the animal rights activism world.

435
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:56,160
So why is that? What are those laws about? And why do they represent such a threat for activists?

436
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:05,040
So my thoughts on AGAC laws is that the specific one in Ontario, I can't speak to the others

437
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:10,960
because I don't know them all, but that one, the increase is fine for trespassing onto farms,

438
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:17,680
so it targets stuff like I did. I don't think it will stop people from doing that because I knew

439
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,760
what I was doing was illegal in the first place and it could have gone to trial. And it'll never

440
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:29,200
stop people that have enough willpower, determination to go on there. And there's a

441
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:34,400
lot of people that are willing to go to court, as we saw with like, meet the victims in kitchens,

442
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,600
in Kitchener during Thanksgiving, there were about 100 activists that were planning to

443
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:44,320
break into a turkey factory farm and do a lockdown. They were stopped by the police and

444
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,960
before that happened. But those people are always going to be there, people willing to break the

445
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:54,400
law to save animals, to rescue them or to film them. So I don't think all the money or the

446
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,160
jail time will stop those types of activists. They're always going to be there. But what it

447
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:06,720
will stop is legal activism, like stuff like Mercy for Animals used to do, or Last Chance for

448
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:11,680
Animals where they get an employee hired by the organization or institution or whatever, like for

449
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:19,200
a farmer. And then they're able to use that footage to take the farmer or whatever slaughterhouse

450
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:26,160
owner or whatever to court, that will end because those organizations or charity organizations,

451
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,760
they depend on donors and stuff like that. And they can't get caught up in legal battles.

452
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:35,040
Whereas other individual activists or grassroots organizations probably don't care about that,

453
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,240
that much. So it will stop the bigger organizations that are charities or

454
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:46,000
doing it legally. And it also targeted the save movement. So those people that go give water to

455
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:53,200
pigs on boiling hot transport trucks during the summer or try to go record them in the winter

456
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:57,520
time and these trucks outside the slaughterhouse, their skin is stuck to the side of the metal,

457
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,800
frozen to the side of the metal truck and ripping off. People that document that kind of stuff are

458
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:09,760
going to be targeted more because of that. And I think these ag gag laws, everybody's going to

459
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:15,040
say it's going to change the whole landscape of animal rights. It will in some ways hide the

460
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:20,080
animal cruelty in legal means. But I think what it's having is the opposite effect where it's

461
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:25,360
driving people to do more underground direct action. In the last year, I know in the United

462
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:31,760
States, it's been the highest spike of direct action for animals. Mink releases have gone up

463
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,240
exponentially. There's never been more mink releases than this year since the 1990s.

464
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:41,840
So all the people that wanted to document animal cruelty and bring it to the police or

465
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,160
have these undercover employees go in, everybody's turning to underground actions where they just

466
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,560
release these animals, they rescue them directly, they don't involve the police. It's all underground

467
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:58,800
and it's increasing more and more, I think, because of these ag gag laws. Because they've

468
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,520
basically criminalized whistleblowers, people that care about animals, people that want to witness

469
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,360
this or hear witness to the slaughter trucks. It's all been criminalized now. So people are

470
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:12,400
just going underground, cutting out the police and the legal system completely. They're doing it

471
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,880
anonymously and they're directly helping these animals. So many animals have been rescued this

472
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:22,240
year. It's unbelievable. The animal liberation front last December targeted the largest mink

473
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:27,680
firm in the United States and it got shut down after a mink release. So these people that maybe

474
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:32,160
wanted to do it the legal way are going around the law and still helping these animals at the

475
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:36,160
end of the day. And it's growing and growing. And I don't think it's something that an ag

476
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:42,080
gag law will stop. It will just stop people doing it in a legal method through the authorities,

477
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:49,760
through the normal channels. Yeah. And you went through that. You infiltrated those farms,

478
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:58,960
you uncovered some illegal practices by those farmers, but then they persecute you for having

479
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:08,960
what uncovered illegal practices by illegal means. It doesn't make much sense. It's the

480
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:18,560
definition of being a whistleblower. Like what do you expect? Yeah, it's crazy, but I'm happy to

481
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:29,600
hear you be optimistic about the future of activism work even under those laws. And I hope that

482
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:38,800
because now there are a few Canadian provinces and US states, I think, who have those laws in place,

483
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:47,440
there is a political willingness to adopt those laws on a federal level.

484
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:59,520
But I don't think this will pass, or at least I hope not. I've seen so many activists being

485
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:08,320
mobilized, or just normal vegans being mobilized around this issue and meeting with their MP and

486
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:16,240
trying to express the opinion that this is unconstitutional and this should not pass.

487
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:25,760
So I'm optimistic about that too. Yeah. One of the other points I want to make is the way some of

488
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:31,200
these ag-gag bills are worded. I don't know about the ones in Canada in particular, but I know there

489
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:38,080
was one in the states where it basically made documenting and reporting elderly abuse or child

490
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:44,160
abuse legal under the statute because the way it was worded that people couldn't film was happening

491
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:50,160
in certain places. So that's crazy. Imagine having your grandma at a nursing home and somebody's

492
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:56,800
punching her or whatever, or a kid getting hurt by an adult, and then they use this ag-gag bill to

493
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,880
allow that to happen. That's unfathomable. I don't know how people could get behind that.

494
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:11,120
Again, these ag-gag laws are targeting specific things that we did, like my illegal investigation,

495
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:16,000
legal investigations, and people burying witness to pigs going to slaughter.

496
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:23,680
This was lobbied heavily by the animal egg industry to politicians, really because these

497
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:29,120
three methods are super effective of bringing awareness to the public of what's happening.

498
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,240
People don't know where their meat comes from. People don't know where their fur comes from.

499
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:38,400
These investigations and people videotaping the trucks is constantly being put out on social

500
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:43,520
media. It's getting in the regular mainstream media, and then politicians and stuff start

501
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:48,240
seeing this. The public will turn against it. The industry is fighting for its life right now,

502
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:55,520
the animal egg industry, by putting these laws out there. There's a saying, maybe it was by Gandhi,

503
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:01,520
first they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win. I think we're going past the

504
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:05,600
they laugh at you stage, because maybe 10 or 20 years ago, people fighting for animal rights

505
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:11,200
would just shrug you off. Everybody's using that stuff, but now everything's becoming vegan,

506
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:19,600
products are becoming synthetic or natural. Society doesn't have the need to use and take

507
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:25,840
from animals as much as we did before. The industry is having to compete with these vegan

508
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:32,080
products, these natural or synthetic products that can replace standardized animal products,

509
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:38,400
and they're targeting what's been most effective against them. These things that are illegal

510
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,960
under the bill are very, very effective. I don't think that's going to stop animal rights activists.

511
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:48,960
We're just going to find new methods to do this. Just like any social justice movement,

512
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:54,400
that's very successful. The end of it, the repression comes down very hard. At some point,

513
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,400
people just say, I don't want to do this anymore, I don't want to be part of this. They either go

514
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:03,360
against the law, or they get people enforcing the law, stop enforcing it, because they don't

515
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,600
believe in it. I think we're going to see a lot of people who are going to be part of this,

516
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,440
I think we're going to see a lot more of that in the next decade.

517
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:19,680
S1 And this is one more argument for animal rights. If you care about democracy and our

518
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:27,520
democratic institutions, you should be vegan. You should support the animal rights movement,

519
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:34,400
because this industry is too powerful. It has captured our governments, whether they are on

520
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:41,680
the left or the right. I know that some people say, more liberal governments have been allies of

521
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:50,320
the animal rights movement. Yeah, I mean, define allies. But yeah.

522
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:58,960
S2 One point I'll say about political parties is that the majority of rule represented MPs

523
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:03,600
are conservatives. A lot of the conservative MPs do support animal ag in that way. They're the

524
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:09,760
ones that are introducing this federal ag gag bill. And they're the ones targeting activists.

525
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:13,760
So you know, if you're going to vote, I would say not to vote conservative, but that's my own

526
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:18,320
personal opinion. I think there's more leeway on the other end of the spectrum.

527
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:25,760
S1 Yeah, yes, that's, that's for sure. And I also interpret that as a failure of

528
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:33,360
the animal rights movement of influencing conservatives, and you know, the conservative

529
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:39,600
governments, but also conservative people, you know, I produced an episode with two conservatives

530
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:48,160
who are vegan. I really believe that we should not just be in our liberal bubble, and we should

531
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:57,680
we should also try to influence and advocate for animal rights in conservative circles. Yeah,

532
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:09,440
there is hope, we should just, you know, nourish that hope, make it grow into a more concrete

533
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:16,240
presence of veganism and care for animal rights in conservative circles.

534
00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:21,680
S1 Yeah, I'd say for sure. You know, when I was doing the end fur farming campaign, we're

535
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:27,280
protesting all these mink farms. At the same time, I was meeting with politicians from every

536
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:33,040
political party, I met conservatives, liberals, the New Democratic Party, try to inform them all

537
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:37,920
of what's going on. And I think, you know, there's an election coming up right now. And I think it's

538
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:44,160
an opportunity for animal rights activists to go show up at these politician events or debates or

539
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:48,560
whatever, you know, raise the issue of banning fur farms. British Columbia has already banned

540
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:54,320
fur farming, but we need a federal bill. So or any animal rights issue in general, vegan issue,

541
00:56:54,320 --> 00:57:00,240
go to these debates, go to wherever the politicians are campaigning and bring up, you know, your

542
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:05,600
animal rights issue, let them know that animals matter, that they're part of our society, and that

543
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:10,720
they need to stop being exploited in such horrifying ways in our name with our tax dollars.

544
00:57:10,720 --> 00:57:17,280
Or even becoming candidate for the Animal Protection Party of Canada or your, you know,

545
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:23,920
wherever you are in the world, the Animal Protection Party that is there, the Animal Rights Party.

546
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:33,200
Yeah, it's an effective way of making a difference. So I really wanted to talk about

547
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:42,480
the footage, you know, the images that you took of the minks, but also in general that we find online,

548
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:52,800
I had Gail in from anonymous for the voiceless on, I also had Natalie from the Canada 11 case.

549
00:57:52,800 --> 00:58:03,360
And now I have you and I feel like this is a holy trinity of, you know, footage of animal

550
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:13,760
exploitation and how it is effective and powerful for advocating for veganism and for changes

551
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:23,520
in the animal rights space. This has been a recurrent theme in those three episodes. So I

552
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:32,400
want to hear you as a professional photographer to talk about, you know, the power and also the

553
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:39,520
influence of that footage, and why is it so essential for the animal rights movement?

554
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:45,040
Yeah, firstly, I'd just like to say I personally know Gail and Natalie, and they're both amazing

555
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:50,960
activists. Keep up the good work, both of you. Yeah, I would say photography and, you know,

556
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:57,280
this video footage, just images of animals in different settings is hugely important,

557
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:04,480
getting that out to the public to educate them. I think even not only images of animals suffering,

558
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,080
because sometimes, let's be honest, they're hard to watch. I don't always want to watch,

559
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:15,520
you know, horrifying pictures of animals. I do like what D, Dark Action Everywhere, DxE,

560
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:21,760
did with their protests that I used to go to in Toronto. They would have pictures of the animals

561
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:27,200
being exploited, but they would also show the dichotomy of animals in their natural habitats.

562
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:32,240
So you're not always getting bombarded with horrifying images and people could perceptualize

563
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:38,000
these animals in nature, I think the way that they're supposed to be portrayed. They're not

564
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:43,360
just solely, you know, a pig on a truck. Maybe you have a pig at a farm or something like that,

565
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:48,400
which I guess isn't 100% natural. But like, you know, showing people what's happening with these

566
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:55,600
animals is important so they know, but also showing them what we're hoping for, what animals'

567
00:59:55,600 --> 01:00:02,400
lives could look like if we weren't exploiting them for meat or for clothing or entertainment,

568
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:10,320
stuff like that. Show people the animals, who are they meant to be. And like, I always try to think

569
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:15,280
of like photography. One of my favorite photographers is Joanne MacArthur from Toronto. I think she's

570
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:22,080
based out of Toronto. Her photography is amazing. Her career inspired me to start doing my own

571
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:30,640
photography. And also, she showcases her work all over the world. It's very professional. Her photos

572
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:36,720
are amazing. So I'd recommend people to check out Joanne MacArthur's work. I can't remember the

573
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:44,560
exact title. Yeah, but yeah, check out Joanne MacArthur. Amazing photos and very powerful. I

574
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:51,440
think it's true, you know, a photo says a thousand words, you know, you can talk about veganism,

575
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:55,760
you can talk about animal rights, you can talk about animal liberation to people, and they have

576
01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:02,160
an understanding. But I think once you see a photo, you know, it really touches people's hearts,

577
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:07,920
it touches their minds and their souls. And people can really empathize and put their selves in the

578
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:13,920
place of that animal. Maybe if you look into the animal's eyes, you can see, maybe it looks like

579
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:20,080
your dog at home, maybe your cat at home. Maybe you can think of yourself in a cage or in a

580
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:26,400
zoo or in an animal testing lab, and you could understand what the animal's going through and

581
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:35,120
just, you know, have empathy with those animals and just reject their oppression, reject their

582
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:42,240
exploitation, and reject speciesism. We're all put on this earth, the animals are here with us,

583
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:48,320
not for us. And we have to share the world with them. So we should do our best to be stewards and

584
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,360
help them and not make life a living hell for them.

585
01:01:52,640 --> 01:02:00,080
Amazing. So Malcolm, did you have anything more to say before we end this conversation?

586
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:08,720
Yeah, just a couple things I wanted to plug. I'm in a documentary called Ending Real Fur. The

587
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:16,240
director, Taimur Choudhry, has been working on this film for years and years and started off as a 30

588
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:22,480
minute film and over the years turned into a feature length film. And it highlights all sorts

589
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:30,400
of different aspects of the Canadian fur industry. He got famous celebrities involved like Tim Gunn

590
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:40,160
from Project Runway, you know, famous singers, Ingrid Newkirk from PETA, Animal Justice, Nathan

591
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:46,400
Aaron, and Daniel Smith, who's a liberal MP based out of Toronto. He actually got him to introduce a

592
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:51,680
bill to ban fur farming, which hasn't been hugely successful, but it's a start in the right direction

593
01:02:51,680 --> 01:03:01,520
for federal fur farm bill. The film documents my work going into these fur farms, mentions my trial.

594
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:08,880
There's also a fur farm employee that talks about his experience in the working on a fur farm. And

595
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:14,480
he's helped galvanize activists all over the world to oppose fur farming and the fur industry in

596
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:19,920
general. And this film is an amazing feature length film. It's very consumable by the public.

597
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:25,360
It doesn't have a lot of horrifying images of animals, which turn off some people. There is a

598
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:30,480
bit of it, of course, but mostly it's interviewing people and talking about the fur industry. He

599
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:37,440
talks to First Nations people about their thoughts on the fur trade, which is interesting because

600
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:42,560
native culture people use fur, but they're really against fur farming because it's not

601
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:50,000
part of their ethics. They have way more respect for an animal, even though I don't agree 100%

602
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:54,320
with what's going on, but everybody can agree that these fur farms are horrifying and that

603
01:03:54,320 --> 01:04:00,160
they shouldn't exist. Want to do even more than that? Get involved with the coalition to abolish

604
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:08,800
the fur trade, CAFT USA. They've been spearheading a campaign against various retailers. They've got

605
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:15,120
a bunch of different major designers to drop fur from their labels, people that are promoting the

606
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:21,520
idea that fur is luxurious. They're forcing them with direct action, protests, online actions to

607
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:27,440
get rid of fur. So you can participate anywhere in the world with these campaigns to look up the

608
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:33,440
coalition to abolish the fur trade, USA. Get involved with that. Right now, the main target is

609
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:41,520
Louis Vuitton. They're owned by LVMH, which is Louis Vuitton Monet Hennessy. They have a lot of

610
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:52,560
different fashion houses like Christian Dior, Marc Jacobs, Fendi, and Max Mara. They're all owned by

611
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:57,680
LVMH. So we've been really targeting these specific brands. They're the largest fashion house in the

612
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:03,280
world. And if we can get Louis Vuitton to go fur free, it is going to have a huge trickle down

613
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:09,680
effect on all the other designers, all the other fashion houses in the world. Celebrities will

614
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:15,680
stop using fur as much, that kind of stuff. And it'll really be, I think, a fatal blow to the fur

615
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:20,880
trade because once the largest fashion house drops fur, there's going to be nowhere for other

616
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:29,520
designers to look to to imitate the highest selling fashion brand in the world. So again, look up

617
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:35,040
coalition to abolish the fur trade. And the main target right now is Louis Vuitton. So if you're

618
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:40,560
planning a protest against a fur brand anywhere, go after Louis Vuitton. They're the number one

619
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:46,160
target for animal rights activists right now. That's all I wanted to say, those few things.

620
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:53,120
So this was a pleasure, Malcolm. Thank you so much for having been a guest and answered my questions

621
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:58,480
and for all of your great work. Thank you. Thanks for having me on the show,

622
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:04,480
Ryan. I appreciate it. Go fur free, everybody. Thank you everyone for listening. Before you go,

623
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:10,880
I have a question for you. Do you believe it is ethically acceptable to purchase Ming Fur at the

624
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:17,360
secondhand store? I forgot to ask this question to Malcolm during our conversation, but I had the

625
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:22,960
chance to ask him the question by email. If you want to know his answer, check out the description

626
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:30,080
below. He made such great points that I had to share his answer with you. I also have a special

627
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:37,600
announcement to make. This is the last episode of the year 2023. I will be taking a break for the

628
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:46,000
next two weeks, but I will be back in 2024 with an exciting lineup of guests and topics. I have

629
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:53,440
really outdone myself for the coming year. In the meantime, let me thank you again for being a friend

630
01:06:53,440 --> 01:07:08,800
of this show. I wish you a joyous holiday season and a happy new year. See you soon.

631
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:38,800
Thank you.