1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,520 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report. If you are an 2 00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:12,000 ethical vegan and you care to do more to end animal abuse, then this podcast is for you. 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:20,000 Every Tuesday, discover passionate, thought-provoking and inspiring vegan leaders from all walks of life 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:27,440 who will inspire you to take action. I could be vegan if it was not for the cheese. 5 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:33,680 I heard this phrase so many times, I stopped counting. I'm at a point where I think cheese 6 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:40,160 is an addiction and a major obstacle to the vegan cause and I'm no better than the next person. 7 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:47,440 I have to confess that, as a vegan, I have been in a never-ending quest for the best plant-based cheese 8 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:53,760 out there. As you might know from listening to episode 11 of the show, I visited the vegan 9 00:00:53,760 --> 00:01:01,120 festival of Montreal and I was definitely hoping to discover a startup that makes excellent vegan 10 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:09,760 cheese. And against all expectations, I did. This company is called Aviva and this is what you can 11 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:16,800 read on their website. Aviva is the first plant-based cheese alternative made from chickpeas, 12 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:24,400 beans and seeds and centered around nutrition. Our three products are made in Montreal, 13 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:30,880 a source of protein, calcium, iron and fiber, suitable for people with not allergies, 14 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:38,960 not a source of saturated fat as other alternatives in the market. I thought I need to get the founder 15 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:45,520 of this company on the show and maybe inspire some of you listeners to launch your own vegan business. 16 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:51,440 So, Betty Zoller, welcome to the show. Thank you, Ryan. So excited. Love to hear 17 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:58,720 your introduction. Thank you so much. Amazing. I'm curious, Betty, when did you first identify 18 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:07,440 the need for better plant-based cheese? Well, when I started trying to become vegan, 19 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:15,120 and definitely we'll talk a bit more about that, but definitely cheese is a pain point. I need to 20 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:24,400 say it was for me and it is for a lot of people. So at first, a vegan friend, I wasn't vegan at 21 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:32,880 the moment, I was just a vegetarian and we'll talk about that after, but this friend introduced me to 22 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:42,240 vegan cheese making and we were making cashew-based cheese. And I loved it. I'm like, wow. But it's 23 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:49,840 definitely hard to make your own. It is very time consuming. After the cashew alternatives, 24 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:57,600 I started looking at something maybe a bit more nutritious. I had children and I was feeling like, 25 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:08,240 well, there was a lot of allergy suspected, allergies situations with my children. So the nuts 26 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,760 and cheeses were a bit out of the question. Also, I wanted something that I could have for an everyday 27 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:23,520 product, a bit less expensive as well. So I saw that the other cheeses that were not nut-based, 28 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:33,200 where they were a bit more affordable, they didn't have any protein or basically no nutrition at all. 29 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:39,280 And they're perfect. There's definitely a time and place for each of the vegan cheeses that are in 30 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:44,480 the market. But that was not the type of cheese that I was looking for to have, for example, cubed 31 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:52,080 with just some crackers, with some grapes as a snack. It was more just to maybe use in recipes 32 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:58,000 for melting or something like that, as an ingredient for something else. So that's when I said, 33 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:05,200 well, let's explore and see because I used to eat cheese not only as a vegetarian, not only 34 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:12,480 for the pleasure of it, but also to get some protein, to get some nutrients. So that was the 35 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,400 part that was missing in the offer that was in that moment in the market. 36 00:04:17,840 --> 00:04:25,600 Yeah. And as you mentioned, most of the cheese out there, the big brands like Dahlia, 37 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:31,760 they're not really good. First of all, it's not really good. I have to say, I have to confess that 38 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:42,160 I never find it very good. And also you don't eat it raw. You always use it in a recipe. So you try 39 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:51,280 to, I guess, minimize its presence in the meal. It's a weird, it's not the way I learned how to 40 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:58,640 eat it. So yeah, you're completely right about that. And I'm so glad to hear you talk about 41 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:06,320 proteins, because this is something that not many vegans in the food space talk about. 42 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:15,280 Even when I look at vegan influencers and the meals they take, pictures of the meals they make, 43 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:21,520 I always wonder where are the proteins in that meal? It's like we have forgotten about proteins, 44 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:27,920 but it's essential. We need it. As someone who works out, I always think about my, 45 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:35,760 the portion of protein I need every day. So I'm so glad to hear you talk about this. 46 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:42,240 Yes, absolutely. It definitely needs to be something that, yeah, there's also a joke about 47 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:47,120 how many times you have heard as a vegan or a vegetarian, where do you get your protein? 48 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:53,920 And that's also, some people are fed up with that. But it is true that you have to pay a bit 49 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:59,200 of attention in what you're eating. It's not that you're going to just start eating vegetables and 50 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:07,040 rice and feel great. You can also, maybe if you're not paying attention to your iron as well, you can 51 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,920 be anemic. So it's better if you're like a well-rounded and really try to pay attention. 52 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:17,920 It's not always super easy, but yes, the idea was to try to make it a bit easier. So it was so simple 53 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:24,800 for me to just cut some, cube some cheese, dairy cheese back in the time, and just eat like that 54 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:31,680 with crackers. And I would feel I'm having like something more, you know, sustained or maybe that's 55 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:37,520 not the word sustained, but something more nutritious basically. And that's more, that's what I wanted 56 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:47,120 to mimic with Aviva. Yes. And when you give up cheese, you're also giving up some meals that are 57 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:54,640 a bit very important in the culture, in the way you've been brought up. And what I'm thinking 58 00:06:54,640 --> 00:07:05,200 about right now is a pizza. And that was something I had to grieve. You know, I'm not getting a good 59 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:14,240 pizza anymore because there's no cheese available out there to make a good pizza recipe. So I have 60 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:24,480 to eat pizza without the cheese topping or just to, you know, manage with the alternatives out 61 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:36,000 there. So yeah, did you have to give up any meals because of becoming vegan and having to cut off cheese? 62 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:44,640 Yes. Well, my journey was, it's still, it's very, has been very progressive. My journey to veganism 63 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:53,440 has been really, really, yeah, progressive is the best word. I've been in like a transition, 64 00:07:53,440 --> 00:08:02,000 getting more and more for definitely when I launched the company, I, when I, not only when 65 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:08,320 I launched the company, when I started making these bean based cheese or like you base cheese, 66 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:14,320 I found that finally there was a lot of things that I could like incorporate. I was very happy 67 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:24,080 because that really helped me overcome a big challenge that I was having that was with cheese. But 68 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:30,640 other than that, I don't mind, for example, we don't have any mozzarella yet. It's because I 69 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:38,320 really, I hear you. It's not easy at all. And since the company has nutrition, the nutrition is very, 70 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:43,760 very top of mind. It's very important. It was important for me to start the company. It is 71 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:53,120 something, it's in our values to have the nutrition aspect. Mozzarella is a bit hard to imitate. It is 72 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:59,360 hard to imitate and as well to be nutritious because you needed to melt a lot. You need to really 73 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:08,800 melt very, very well. So we, I haven't really, we haven't ventured in mozzarella yet. It is, 74 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:14,960 I, there are some that are good in the market, but really the best that I would say is to make 75 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:22,480 your own, your own fresh mozzarella from cashews. I think that cashews are really, work pretty well 76 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:28,240 for, for like a fresh mozzarella. You know, that one, the white one that's in a bowl of mozzarella. 77 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:37,760 If you have the time or I mean, it's a project, but you can probably freeze it. I think the part 78 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:46,880 that was a little hard for me was the extra cooking. That is, I, you can eat, I think you 79 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:54,880 can eat almost anything. I really find that I, what, if I put the time into it, I can get a very, 80 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:03,280 very decent, you know, mock or version or vegan version of many things. And the things that I 81 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:08,800 cannot, I mean, there are different options in the market. You, what I find is that you need to put 82 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:15,360 in the time. Okay. And that's what I said. Okay. I mean, who's going to be making their own cheese 83 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:22,400 all the time. So I mean, let's, I think there's opportunity here for something. And so that's the 84 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:30,480 thing that I have had to give up. I mean, I, I have gotten used to the, the mozzarella out there 85 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:40,080 for the pizza, for example, the part that I was, is still the hardest for me is when going out, 86 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:49,280 be visiting friends, going to dinner parties. That was really the last milestone in my journey 87 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:58,000 to transitioning vegan has been that. And when things are under my control, I usually find a way 88 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:05,600 to make it work. But when things are not, that is when things get, I, it might feel very limiting. 89 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:12,560 Well, let's talk about the beginning of your vegan journey. What triggered that transition 90 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:16,320 in your life? What made you want to make that change? 91 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:25,280 Yes. Well, I became vegetarian 10 years ago when I moved to Canada. And it was basically, 92 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:30,400 because it's not that I overnight, I moved to Canada and then I knew what happened to animals 93 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:37,600 that I was eating. No, it's mainly a fact. The factor was the cooking part. When I was in 94 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:43,200 Venezuela, it's very cultural. People usually live with their parents until they get married, 95 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:48,000 or do they move some another to another city. But if you live in the same city as your parents, 96 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:55,120 you most likely live with your parents. And my mom was doing all the cooking. And I was 97 00:11:55,120 --> 00:12:02,640 doing all the cooking. And I just found too disruptive. I basically, to be completely 98 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:10,320 honest, did not want to embark on making all my food. It really sounds, I'm not someone who 99 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:17,360 loves cooking. I need to say that. I really am not someone I love. That's also why this is the type 100 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:25,760 that I felt super happy to make, because it kind of makes things easier for other people to maybe 101 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:33,200 just put together a quick meal without spending so much time cooking. So I didn't want to do all the 102 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,680 cooking. I thought it was just going to be too complicated, get all my things. Also in Venezuela, 103 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:43,360 there are not so many. Vegetarianism is super easy. Now for me, it's like, oh, vegetarian, 104 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:49,600 that's so easy. Really for me, it's like, how can someone think it's hard to become a vegetarian? 105 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:56,080 It's extremely easy. For me, that's really level one in difficulty. But at the moment, I saw it as 106 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:05,760 a huge thing. So even though I had this, I really felt for animals. I was an animal lover. I tried 107 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,880 as many, many people just to kind of not think about it. That's probably what's most omnivores 108 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:16,000 do. They just don't think about it. And then I moved to Canada and I said, okay, I'm going to 109 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:22,160 have to cook for myself anyways. So this is the moment. I can cook. It's under my control. So I 110 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,840 can cook whatever I want. And I'm going to start cooking vegetarian. And I found it really easy. 111 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:37,440 I need to say vegetarianism was super easy. Then I started looking at more documentaries, hearing 112 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:44,160 more. Really in my head, it was, okay, you don't have to kill animals. So I am perfectly not eating 113 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:50,240 the meat, not eating like golden like that. I felt like I was doing everything I could. It was 114 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:57,680 perfect. I met this vegan friend as well in the university. I came here to do my masters. So we 115 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:02,960 studied together and started talking to be a bit more about that. And I also started in Canada, 116 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:07,120 it's much more common. Definitely in Minnesota, it's not common to hear about veganism. I mean, 117 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:12,400 10 years ago it wasn't. I don't know how it is now. But I started hearing more about it and 118 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:19,200 looking at documentaries and thinking like, oh my God, maybe vegan, maybe vegetarian is not enough. 119 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:30,400 Then I started, I went to, it was a program called Clinique Rennes Versantes. They were also at the 120 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:39,280 Vegan Fest. She's a dietitian called Anne-Marie Roy. I have always been very health conscious. I 121 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:45,440 love to read the labels when I purchase any product. I read the nutritional facts, I read 122 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,400 the ingredient list. I have always been like that. I think my mom is like that and I kind of picked 123 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:59,840 that up. So she was proposing to teach you how to eat in a very healthy way, plant-based. So her 124 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:06,720 thing is this whole theory, this whole movement of whole foods, plant-based. And I started learning 125 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:12,560 about it and I was, wow, this is, it's perfect. It's not only because of the animals, but look at 126 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:19,520 all the health benefits of this. And it completely resonated with me, but I was working at a dairy 127 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:27,520 company. Okay. Yes, I was working in marketing right after my masters. I started working at a 128 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:34,000 dairy company when I was a vegetarian. And actually for me, I mean, cheese was a very 129 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:41,760 important part of many meals. It was sometimes like cheese centered. Many of the vegetarian 130 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,880 options, that's the protein they have is cheese. So I was like, oh my God, so happy. It's perfect 131 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:55,120 that I work here. It just happened to be. And of course it was super convenient to get so much. 132 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:01,120 I would get amazing prices on the products that are usually very expensive. I would get really 133 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,600 good discounts. I would get always, I was in marketing, I would get samples on my, I was 134 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:11,280 product manager at some point. So I was like really working with the product itself. So getting 135 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:17,040 tons of samples of cheese all the time, it's just, it was just not going to happen. It was just 136 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:25,280 really hard. There was, I at home, I would cook more and more plant-based following this advice 137 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:31,520 from this nutrition program that I took. It was like a three month thing. I learned a lot of tools, 138 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:36,560 but I just was not ready, especially in the environment where I was in, really basically 139 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:45,200 food, cheese everywhere I looked. So then I started, I went on maternity leave. 140 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:53,760 Well, I was with my second child and I was okay. I didn't have the tons of cheese on my desk anymore. 141 00:16:54,320 --> 00:17:03,840 That really helped. And on top of it, my daughter had a lot of issues, like gastrointestinal issues. 142 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:10,560 And we were thinking, we started with elimination diets. And one of the things that they took away, 143 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:19,680 the doctors, was dairy, but in a very, very, very strict way. Like not, I had to, every time I would 144 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:27,760 order anywhere, I would have to ask what, I discovered that there was dairy in so many places 145 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:34,640 that I didn't know. That felt extremely frustrating for me, but I had to take it super 146 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:41,440 seriously because we needed to see what was causing these issues. And because I was breastfeeding, 147 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:46,320 the thing is that because I was breastfeeding her, I needed to eliminate everything from my diet. 148 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:53,440 And then that was really like the moment when it wasn't under my control anymore. And I didn't have 149 00:17:53,440 --> 00:18:00,720 all the time, my eight hours a day didn't revolve around cheese anymore because I was not working. 150 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:06,880 So that was the moment when I started taking it much more seriously, but it was only dairy. 151 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,480 And I was eliminating many other things because of this elimination diet was extreme, was brutal, 152 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:18,320 was really difficult because there were many, many things that I couldn't eat. I was not ready to 153 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:23,520 take out eggs at the point. It's like, I really, I couldn't eat almost, I couldn't eat soy at some 154 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:32,400 point. So without soy, for me, that was extremely hard, like too hard. So I said, forget about eggs. 155 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:44,800 I'm keeping eggs. And then when this whole gastrointestinal problem got resolved, I started 156 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:54,240 being a bit less strict with all the ingredients, like asking everywhere. I would ask in a restaurant 157 00:18:54,240 --> 00:19:01,040 what if all the ingredients for everything. And I would notice that the rice had butter, for example. 158 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:10,240 And I felt so limited that after this GI issue was solved, and I didn't have to do that anymore, 159 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:16,400 I went back to a bit more like a relaxed place where if I was at home, I would control everything 160 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:23,680 I would eat. And it wasn't really hard for me to get the vegan versions of things, especially now. 161 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:30,720 But when I was out, I would, and I saw that I'm going to eat like the Greek salad with pieces of 162 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:38,160 feta in it. That was evident that was dairy, but I wasn't so inquisitive with what's in the 163 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:45,520 here, reading everything. Sometimes you know that they even have different names in the ingredient 164 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:52,320 list that you have to be super. So I relaxed that a bit because it was feeling a bit obsessive, 165 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,880 to be honest, at first when I was with the elimination diet, not only with dairy, but with 166 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:05,280 other products. And then I stayed like that for a little while of being food-savvy, 167 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:15,440 being flexible. For me, a huge wall that I had in front of me was friends eating out. 168 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:26,480 We have many friends who invite us for dinner parties. And that was like, what am I gonna do? 169 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:32,880 I felt like, what am I gonna tell them? They knew I was vegetarian. People always had a vegetarian 170 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:39,520 option for me. Like, oh my god, am I gonna tell them now? I'm vegan, cook something vegan for me. 171 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:49,120 I don't know. That felt like a mountain for me to overcome that. I was being just so apologetic 172 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:55,680 about it. Am I gonna just inconvenience these people, causing them trouble to see what they're 173 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:03,600 gonna feed me now? I can bring my own things. I did a couple times, but then it felt so weird to me 174 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:09,920 to bring my own food, do things, and just eat what I was eating and not eating what they were eating. 175 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:17,040 That, I need to say, was a complete... That was very hard, I need to say for me. So I was being 176 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:24,320 vegan almost completely when I could control and then when I would be out. But I am a big 177 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,840 proponent. I know that a lot of people, I hear in many vegan discussions that people are completely 178 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:39,120 against that, against being progress, like doing a transition and being very in a progressive way, 179 00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:44,640 because they say, well, if you were against, if you're against pedophilia, would you do what? 180 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:51,920 Pedophilia once in a while. I don't... Anyways, I completely understand that point of view. 181 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:58,320 I understand, I get it. I respect everyone's positions, but for me, I think it's still better 182 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:05,840 that I ate vegan when I was at home and every time I was to go into a restaurant that I could 183 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:11,280 order things instead of doing everything at the same time and then feeling so overwhelmed and 184 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:17,360 isolated and just giving up after because I was feeling I was, I don't know, losing my friends. 185 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:23,760 I have no clue, but it worked for me. And that's something that I tell people that it works. If you 186 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:30,000 say just don't, if it doesn't feel like you can manage or that it's going to feel like really a 187 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:36,720 mountain for you to climb, I don't see the problem of doing it progressively. And I think it's going 188 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,920 to become a little easier. If I had become vegan right away instead of vegetarian first, I think 189 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:47,520 it would have been much harder for me because it's just so easy to become vegetarian. So I personally 190 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:54,080 think that that's the best way. That part of the eating out part and telling my friends, only this 191 00:22:54,080 --> 00:23:03,360 year I was in that position of just almost getting out of the closet and telling people like, 192 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:12,720 okay friends, I am vegan and I am going to bring my things and I hope that's okay with you. You 193 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:20,000 don't have to worry at all about me. I can figure out. But if someone would, I don't know, the other 194 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:25,600 time I went to someone's place and they were like, oh, the carrots, the only thing I could eat in my, 195 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:31,280 when I got there with my food. I'm like, oh well, I can try their, I can eat their carrots. They had 196 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,320 carrots. They had carrots. And I was like, oh well, I can eat their carrots, you know, to share some 197 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:40,560 food together. It's a big, I think that's, I don't know, not a lot of people talk about this, I find. 198 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:46,000 But I think that's important. The fact of sitting together and eating the same food has brought us 199 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:52,160 together for centuries. I mean, I don't know, for thousands of years. So that is a big, was big for 200 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:57,440 me. And I said, okay, I'm going to eat their carrots, you know. And then he said, oh, sorry, 201 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:04,000 the carrots have butter. And I was like, oh my God, I hope he didn't. I wish he didn't say that. 202 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:13,120 So I'm an imperfect vegan. And I'm fine saying that because I'm an imperfect vegan in the sense 203 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:19,440 that I told him, you know what, next time just don't tell me. It's okay. It's okay. If they have 204 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:25,600 a bit of butter, it's fine. If I see the cheese right there, or if I, I mean, if you're baked 205 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,240 muffins, it's obvious that they have, you know, that, oh, I don't see the, I don't see the egg 206 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:35,280 in the muffin. So it's not there. Not to that point. But I mean, if it's something a bit like that, 207 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:44,480 I can get it a bit, I can let it slip. And that's why I consider myself like an imperfect vegan, 208 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:51,360 still working and still doing progress. And that's maybe at some point, I think I'm just 209 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:56,800 going to feel completely okay or bringing all my food or I don't know. I think it's going to happen. 210 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:05,760 And I'm striving to become a more perfect, let's say in quotes, vegan. But that's my journey was a 211 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:13,680 little, a little long and bumpy. I think you're completely reasonable. And I wholeheartedly agree 212 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:20,720 with everything you said. You know, I'm someone who do things in a quite a radical way. When I 213 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:27,520 decided to become vegan, I became vegan overnight. And it was tough because I did not know what to 214 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:36,640 cook or how to cook. And I starved for a few weeks after that. But this is my way. I know that 215 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:44,720 if I had taken a more gradual approach like yours, I would never have reached that vegan goal. 216 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:51,920 But we're all different people with different personalities. And we should not be thinking about 217 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:59,920 converting people to veganism as just a single formula that we can apply to every different, 218 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:09,680 you know, personalities. And I think that one of the reasons why it's very difficult for you is, 219 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:17,680 I think you come from a culture where it's important to be together. And I understand that, 220 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:25,680 because I also come from a culture where it is important to, like you said, share a meal together 221 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:35,040 as a family, as a tribe, and a culture where you don't leave the family nest before you get married. 222 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:44,160 You know, I come from North Africa. It's very important to that social creation aspect, 223 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:55,360 you know, that cultural value of food. It takes a big, big place. And when I became vegan, I felt 224 00:26:55,360 --> 00:27:06,240 like I was cutting myself out of my family in a way. I don't know if you understand that. So 225 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:14,560 I wonder how what what was the reaction of your family from Venezuela who learned that you were 226 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:22,880 becoming vegan? Did you experience that same feeling of alienation from your culture or your 227 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:30,880 family ways? Yes. Well, first, I take my hat off with you because, yes, I completely understand it. 228 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:39,840 So, yes, it takes a lot to come in and say, like, I'm a vegan. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to eat 229 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:47,280 this food. It takes a lot of courage. So, yes, I need to recognize it. I mean, I think that sometimes 230 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:53,520 people are like, oh, becoming vegan is so easy. I mean, I think that if you put that expectation 231 00:27:53,520 --> 00:28:01,840 there and people then are faced with the reality, I and I understand we want more people to join and 232 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:07,760 we want really the cages to be empty forever and no animals to be exploited anymore. So we think 233 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:16,000 that, yes, come in. It's so easy. It's so fun. I understand. But it's also like parenthood. 234 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:21,680 Sometimes I give somebody, oh, it's a bit. Yeah, but now you hear more and more about the struggles 235 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:27,440 of it, too. So when you go in, you know what you're going to be dealing with and you're like, 236 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:33,760 OK, I'm going to take this. I'm going to learn along the way. So, well, a lot of courage. You 237 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:40,800 really have a lot of courage. OK, since I became a more like at this last stage of vegan, like 238 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,760 not caring about anyone, just going in with my own food and just telling everyone like I'm not 239 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,520 going to eat this food. I'm sorry. I haven't been back to Venezuela since then. Last time I went to 240 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:57,840 Venezuela was five years ago. So I was only a vegetarian and I mean, I was. Yeah, I was 241 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:05,680 only I was just vegetarian. So I haven't been in that position yet. I think with vegetarian, 242 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:12,480 it was it was I just told them right away after I moved that I go look, I'm not me. I'm in Canada 243 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,080 and I decided that I'm going to become vegetarian. I'm going to cook my own food. So I think there's 244 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:23,680 no problem. And when I when I got there after, yes, I mean, they had to. But as I said, the journey 245 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:29,680 is so easy. It is. It is super easy. So if there's anyone listening who are like, oh, we're eating 246 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:39,840 meat, that's very easy to really to give up. And you're already doing something. So maybe start 247 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:46,880 start there. I don't know. That's that's my own personality. But they when I go next time, 248 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:55,040 I really don't know what I'm going to do. Like to be. Yeah, I don't know. I think I'm going to 249 00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:04,240 probably cook something with my mom. She I mean, she's my mom. She's there. It was a small family, 250 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:12,560 like the just the family unit. So it's going to be just my family and her. She you know, my father 251 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,920 passed away. I don't have siblings. So that's very easy. She's very understanding. And anyway, so when 252 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:23,840 I go to my bit more, my extended family, like my aunt, the dinner, na na na, maybe I won't just say 253 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:31,200 anything. I won't say anything. And I will just eat their salad and eat their rice. And that's it. 254 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:38,640 I don't I am more the type of like no, no fuss too much about it, because then I don't want it to 255 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:45,280 become, you know, a topic for the night. No one has to inspect what I'm putting on my plate. 256 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:53,360 And yeah, and I am fine. Like if the right if she happened to put butter in the rice, I'm okay. 257 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:58,640 Okay, so that I'm not gonna go there. And they say, Okay, so what's in the rice? And what's in 258 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:05,440 the vegetables? I said vegan. I am I'm not gonna do that right now. Next time I go that I'm planning 259 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:13,200 on going in a couple months. That's gonna be my my strategy. But I yes, I they they know the business 260 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,160 I have. So they know that my business is a vegan business. So it makes sense for them. It makes 261 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:23,280 total sense that I'm that I don't need dairy that I don't need. Maybe eggs are not too aware. But 262 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:30,960 yeah, that's that's that's what I'm taking it. And for us of now what when I was faced with the 263 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:39,760 vegetarian thing that was super easy. Well, you can expect that your veganism is going to be 264 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:47,440 the discussion of every family, you know, gathering, because that that was my case, you know, 265 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:55,120 every time I was with mostly extended family, but even close family like aunts and uncles. 266 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:06,160 Every meal, you know, it was I had to give a speech on veganism and how I did not need to be vegan. 267 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:14,240 And no, I was not getting skinnier, you know, every time it was so tiring. So yeah, 268 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:23,520 family dinners become a bit painful, you know. But, you know, as an immigrant, we don't go there 269 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:33,760 very often. So we don't have to experience that. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Another fascinating thing 270 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:42,720 about your cultural background is that you got inspired from Venezuelan cooking to make 271 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:51,520 the vegan cheese. And I was wondering, how did that happen? How do you start making vegan cheese 272 00:32:52,640 --> 00:33:00,160 as a professional, you know, not just making mozzarella with quesadillas in your 273 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:08,480 kitchen, you know, for your household, but really making cheese that you're going to sell to 274 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:15,200 strangers. So how did how did that happen? How did you make the recipe and how did you get inspired 275 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:25,200 from your cultural background? Yes, well, the first the beans itself pulses like legumes, that 276 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:34,560 legumes, that is the aspect that they were a huge staple for me from before. So we do we do it 277 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:40,880 legumes very often in Latin America, I would say. Yeah, super early know with Mexican food, 278 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:48,400 everywhere. I don't know if everywhere really, but in many countries from Latin America, legumes, 279 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:58,240 meaning chickpeas, beans, lentils are common, or at least more common than in Canada. And that's 280 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:04,720 that. So I was eating them often, and as a vegetarian, and then in my transition to veganism 281 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:12,000 and all this, they were really a big part of our weekly meal rotation, there was always beans. 282 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:21,120 And I just love beans. I love not only I think they are like a super food. I yes, like I because 283 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:31,280 they are so nutritious. They are affordable. And on top of it, when I learned that Canada was one 284 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,960 of the largest producers of pulses in the world, like, oh, my God, like, this is like, perfect. 285 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:45,120 Like this is the there's really sustainability wise, they are great. They are a crop that doesn't 286 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:51,520 require almost any nitrogen fertilizers. They have a property to fixate nitrogen to the soil. 287 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:57,600 So they're used for agriculture to as a rotational crop. So when they need the soil to gather 288 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:04,720 nutrients, again, they plant legumes to to kind of enrich their soil. So I just love this. I love 289 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:12,480 the fact that they are seeds. I got so inspired by the seed aspect of it. Like, wow, they imagine 290 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:20,400 how much life there's inside a seed and really every legume is a seed. So yeah, so nerd with this 291 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:28,720 legume thing. And when I was thinking about an alternative cheese, something that's not made from 292 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:36,000 nuts, because of allergies, and because of also environmental, I don't want to get into into that. 293 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:43,520 Look, I do eat cashew cheese from time to time. I love variety. I think it's great. I do have the 294 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:49,920 the diazo. Look, the diafeta, of course, Aviva Feta is something else. But I need to say the 295 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,880 diafeta is not bad. They've gone a long way from what they were a long time ago. Yes, they've been 296 00:35:54,880 --> 00:36:01,040 they have improved a lot. So there's space for for all sorts. Okay. And for the cashew cheese as well. 297 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:09,760 But there are some issues with the harvest methods of cashews. That's also why they're so 298 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:15,840 expensive. They come from so far away. So maybe it's not like the most sustainable, you know, option 299 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:22,160 out there. So then I thought, okay, I want something that has protein, something that has no 300 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,720 allergen, it's not an allergen that has no allergens. Because I'm telling you, when I had to 301 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:34,720 eliminate all allergens from my diet, to test for it, this elimination diet, it was hell for me. 302 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,560 I couldn't eat anything. Yeah, I was like, really, people with severe allergies or things like that, 303 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:46,720 they cannot eat anything. They are, they must feel very miserable, really. So I said, I'm going to do 304 00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:52,240 maybe something or then, yeah, you have the other options that have no no allergens, but they also 305 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:58,800 have no nutrition. So I started, well, okay, I think really pulses make so much sense. They also 306 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:05,520 have a very neutral taste. I mean, neutral compared to you have seen probably chickpea brown, 307 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:13,040 it's or things like that. So you can play with them. And so I said, okay, let's let's do this. I 308 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:19,440 looked for a couple recipes. There was not much online. When we started making our cashew cheese 309 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:28,320 back in the day, there were many recipes online. There were books about it. For pulses, no. I found 310 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:34,160 some videos, but very not much. Some of them were using like chickpea flour, which is completely 311 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:42,480 different. But I made a couple tests just to see. It has potential. It has potential. But as I 312 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:50,160 mentioned at first, I don't love spending hours in the kitchen. I was working in marketing. I also, 313 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:56,240 the thing of why I said to sell it for other people, because I was working in marketing for 314 00:37:56,240 --> 00:38:02,080 a dairy company for packaged foods. I was already in the market, let's say, I mean completely, 315 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:08,640 but the market that I was trying to mimic. So yes, I was a bit familiar on how the industry works, 316 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:16,160 how consumer foods get created. That's what I was doing as a job. I was looking at trends in the 317 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:21,360 market, looking at gaps in the market and saying, okay, how can we adapt our portfolio? What line 318 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:27,440 extensions we could do? How can we improve this product that's been maybe has this ingredients 319 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,000 we are not liking it anymore. So how can we make it better? So I was doing that as that was my job 320 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:39,360 for some. So that made things much easier. I was already kind of used to how to doing this. And I 321 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:47,440 did that exercise, the product management, but for my own idea. But I'm very conscious about my 322 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,800 limitations. I think that in general, as an entrepreneur, I mean, some people, of course, 323 00:38:52,800 --> 00:39:02,080 you have to almost do it all. But I think I was lucky enough to have, because it's a very 324 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:10,080 innovative area. Also, the fact of using beans or the pulses was very innovative. 325 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:18,000 I did some postings when you mentioned about the interns for interns to get interns from food 326 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:26,960 science. So I did my MBA at McGill. And I was in contact with people from food science from 327 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:32,800 the faculty. So I reached out to them. And they said, okay, send me your job posting, we're going 328 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,440 to actually create among students. And that's what I did. And I said, like, it's to develop a new 329 00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:43,840 plant based cheese. And I think, well, I guess a lot of people were attracted to it. People wanted 330 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:51,680 to get real life experience developing a new product. And yeah, I got my first two students 331 00:39:52,480 --> 00:40:01,040 in summer of 2021. That's when we started working on more prototypes. So after I made my first test, 332 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,760 then I really handed it over to them and told them, okay, this is what I've done so far. 333 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:12,080 This is the objective. The objective back when I first started was, no, because I was with all 334 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:17,920 this whole foods plant based mentality. I was like, I don't know, I don't want any oil in it. 335 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:26,160 I just want it to be all the fat, because of course you need fat to mimic cheese. Cheese is 336 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:31,760 basically fat, more or less. I mean, it has of course many other things, but fat is a very 337 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,800 important component of cheese. So I said, okay, all the fat, I want it to come from seeds. So from 338 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:43,040 nut butters and things, not nuts, but seed butters or things like that, no oil. And I wanted to have 339 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:51,920 like this, I wanted to hit the same macros as dairy cheese. So I wanted to have six grams of 340 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:58,960 protein per serving. And I wanted to have this much, but half the saturated fat or almost no 341 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:04,240 saturated fat, this and that and that. I mean, we started with the first prototype. 342 00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:12,080 And then I started doing a lot of consumer panels with their help. We had a next group of students 343 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:17,840 the next summer. So after we gathered data from the first prototype, we adapted for the second 344 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:26,000 prototype. And now we're really in the third iteration of the product. And that was basically 345 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:35,120 based on feedback because you need to reach a middle point, let's say, between the super ultra 346 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:43,920 nutritious, healthy thing and something that resembles cheese. Cheese itself is not the most 347 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:51,920 nutritious, super healthy thing. It has saturated fat and you cannot not have saturated fat and be 348 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:56,480 called cheese. You can be called something else. So that was also something at some point I was in 349 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:02,960 a crossroads, like should I maybe go with this super healthy version that I cannot really call 350 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:10,080 cheese because it's too far. So that was a bit the process. And then I said, no, I think we need 351 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:17,760 more cheese. People need more cheese. Cheese is a struggle for so many people. If we really, so 352 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:25,280 that's why I said, no, I'm not going to make a healthy, nice, great tasting pate. I'm full of 353 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:30,800 following with cheese. So we continued, continued working. And yes, now it doesn't have six grams 354 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:38,800 of protein. Okay. Now we had to incorporate starches for the texture. The texture was too 355 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:45,680 soft. So we need to do, you know, but now I think we reached a very good middle point of 356 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:53,840 something that is still nutritious, is still healthy. And it's much closer to the Rio cheese. 357 00:42:53,840 --> 00:43:00,480 We're still making the one you tested at the Vegan Fest wasn't as hard as this one. So we haven't 358 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:06,800 been, we have been like continuously improving the recipe and I think we're now almost, almost ready. 359 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:13,520 So even the Vegan Fest, that was really what, a couple of months ago, 360 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:18,640 now we already have a version that's a bit harder because that's what people told us. People in the 361 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:25,680 Vegan Fest were like, yeah, we, we love it. It's amazing. And that we had a little, an iPad there 362 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,800 and a QR code for people to fill out. So we gathered the feedback right away. Okay. People 363 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,760 want it harder. Let's work on it. So we went back and making it now harder. So we have it kind of 364 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:41,440 our version that I think it's the final one. Are you saying there's a better version of the vegan 365 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:47,680 one? Are you saying there's a better version out there than what I can say? Yes. I'm so happy to 366 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:53,040 say, well, it's just a little, it's just firmer. That's the only difference. It has more bite. 367 00:43:53,600 --> 00:44:00,080 So that, that, that, that was the only, the only missing part. And that's what we, we confirmed. 368 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:06,400 That was what people wanted. Are you in Montreal? Because I should send you. Yes, yes, I am. 369 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:12,400 So yeah, you're going to get your harder version. You're going to get it after we, 370 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,560 you'll tell me your address and I'll send you the harder version of Aviva. 371 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:22,960 You're amazing, Betty. Seriously. I mean, and this is getting me hungry. This conversation is getting 372 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:30,560 me hungry. I want to talk about entrepreneurship because you mentioned, you mentioned that, but 373 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:37,920 first, I just want to address something that has been a struggle for many big brands out there. 374 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:47,040 And it's how to label their products because many will use the label plant-based and not use the 375 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:56,560 label vegan. And you use both, I think plant-based and vegan, but many shy away from the vegan label 376 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:04,880 because they find it a bit too maybe partisan or political, or maybe it has a certain social 377 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:10,400 connotation or cultural connotation that they don't like. And I love the fact that you don't shy away 378 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:19,440 from the vegan label. So how did you make that decision of writing vegan on, on the packaging? 379 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:30,960 Oh, I'm so happy you noticed. Really very, you observed. Because the reasons for 380 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:38,560 me to, and I say me even though I've had a lot of help. So many times I say we, 381 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:46,400 but in this conversation, I have led these efforts from the people that who have helped me along the 382 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:57,520 way. But I had the objective is the, of this product is to get more people to switch away from 383 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:07,120 animal based products because of the ethical reasons behind it. So that is the original. 384 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:12,560 There's many more people who are interested in this type of products and it's not at all because 385 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:25,680 of animal ethics, but the main motivation behind this company was animal rights. So that's why I 386 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:33,440 wanted to have it there. And I also wanted people to know, I think plant-based, it's can be more 387 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:40,000 flexible, I think. That's what comes to mind. So that's why when I was doing this thing of, 388 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:45,280 when I was faced with a very problematic situation of no options out there and nothing to eat, 389 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:51,200 and instead of just getting the fries, I would maybe get something with the fries. Because that's 390 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:56,000 many times, you know, that's the only option in some places. Sometimes I would get the vegetarian 391 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:03,840 option or things like that. And I would consider myself more like plant-based because I, in my head, 392 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:11,760 it's a bit more flexible, let's say. And in the developing of the product and the ingredients we 393 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:20,320 choose, we are not being flexible at all. So that is something that I ask every supplier. So that's 394 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:29,680 why I think vegan represents more the values behind the company and also the not letting anything, 395 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,800 look, I am not in a position to see, I cannot see if the companies have done animal testing. 396 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:41,600 That would be when I'm more powerful. I hope that one day, now it's really a struggle to find 397 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:47,600 suppliers to start with that would sell you in lower quantities. But I think that when you have 398 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:55,920 purchasing power, you can start getting much more picky about your suppliers and even asking 399 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,440 more things about because there's not so much information. You can see information that there's 400 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:04,800 no dairy at all in the products. For example, the things with bacterial cultures, something with vegan 401 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,760 versus plant-based. There's something with bacterial cultures that I used to use, now I don't. 402 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:16,240 But some of them, they don't have any dairy in it. There's no dairy in the product. So 403 00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:20,320 even if you're extremely sensitive, you can have a ton and nothing's going to happen because 404 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:33,280 there's no traces of dairy at all in this culture. But the origin of that culture was dairy. So even 405 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:38,480 though there was no dairy, I think that would be considered plant-based, I think. That would be 406 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:46,320 considered plant-based because there's really no animal products in the product. But they used 407 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:54,320 animal at the beginning. So I made the choice back then to not go with that culture because of that. 408 00:48:54,320 --> 00:49:02,000 So that's why vegan, yeah. But I would like to take it a step further and start asking suppliers 409 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:09,840 or getting more information about animal testing. I don't think it's so common. I don't really think 410 00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:19,520 it's common for food products to do animal testing. It's more for really pharmaceuticals or 411 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:26,000 cosmetics or things like that. But yeah, if I could, I would really try and verify as much as 412 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:31,760 possible to really make sure that there was no animals exploited or harmed in the process. 413 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:40,640 Yeah, that's what's important. I mean, what if a few microbes were taken away from an animal 414 00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:48,560 and then cultivated in a lab a few years ago? I don't think this is going a bit too far with 415 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:57,840 the vegan label, but I love that. I love that you use the vegan brand with the ethical 416 00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:08,640 reasons that you mentioned. I truly think it's amazing. And anyway, I think about 75% of the 417 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:17,200 world population is intolerant to dairy products. So you have a market of people out there for 418 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:26,880 mock cheese, plant-based cheese, people who just like vegans want to enjoy pizza and want to have 419 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:35,440 an option for that. But let's talk about the entrepreneurial aspect of it. You are the sole 420 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:45,520 owner and founder of your company, which is a bit rare in these days. Usually you have at least two 421 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:55,120 co-founders for a company. And I just can't imagine how much work there is behind launching Aviva. 422 00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:04,880 So can you mention a bit how it's like to be an entrepreneur? What were your fears before launching 423 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:14,160 your business? And how is your reality right now as the sole owner and founder of your company? 424 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:21,120 And founder of your business? Yes. Well, the fears before, I think 425 00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:28,480 most people, I think the elephant in the room for many, for entrepreneurship sometimes is 426 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,920 how are you going to make a living out of it? It's like, how are you going to pay your bills? 427 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:42,160 That is a, that's a limitation for many people. I need to say that I have been extremely lucky 428 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:52,160 that I am in a household. I have my husband as well. We have agreed on making adjustments 429 00:51:52,160 --> 00:52:01,280 in our budget. We were, our plan was to buy a house a couple of years ago. And then we decided 430 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:08,000 we will have to postpone it because I need to do this now before we buy a house. So of course, 431 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:15,200 financial, it's a big impact. You're going to have to really cut your budget. If you, 432 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:21,920 I think the two best moments would be maybe if you have a very understanding, supportive partner 433 00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:28,960 who can take on more of the weight. I have done things here and there. I do things here and there 434 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:36,800 to also get some extra revenue because now at first you cannot really take money from the company, 435 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:42,640 everything that you make, you have to put it back to the company. So that is a big aspect that 436 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:51,120 made me doubt if at first, how are we going to make this work? I mean, we're supposed to buy a 437 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:57,600 house. Now we have to really just postpone that plan or things like that. So that's a big aspect 438 00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:04,000 of it. And, or also when, if anyone listening who still lives with their parents, that is an amazing 439 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:09,040 moment to also launch a company when you, like that is, it's perfect because you look, it's not 440 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:15,600 that you have to pay rent. You can even get some food from your parents. It's like economically 441 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:24,320 make it work. So, and the, the thing of taking the risk and leaving a job that's of course, 442 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:31,280 it's like, okay, I'm going to leave my, but that was not, I wasn't so scared of that because I, 443 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:39,120 what I thought is like, look, I try now. I see if the market is ready to pay for it, if they like it, 444 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,200 if they feel that there's a need, if it's solving a problem for them and if they are 445 00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:51,360 able to pay the price because unfortunately that's a very, that's a huge barrier is for small 446 00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:59,440 companies. Now you're not going to have the volume of the dairy business for sure. And even compared 447 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:06,720 to Daiya or other, some other brands, they, if you see they're imported from Greece, Greece, they, 448 00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:11,520 they make, they have big volumes of, they make, I don't know what's going on in Greece, but 449 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:19,600 many vegan brands of vegan cheese you see, they imported from Greece and they make, they make it 450 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:26,080 work with a lot of volume. So when you're doing whatever you're doing, if it's not a food business 451 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:30,720 or anything you're doing, probably you're going to start with a small volume and everything's going 452 00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:39,120 to be more expensive for you. Labor, ingredients, everything is going to be more expensive. So 453 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:44,080 people will have to pay more for your product. So you need to make sure that the value you're 454 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:51,600 offering is high enough for people to be able to pay that price. So the, the quitting the job, 455 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:57,760 okay, continuing just on that idea for a second. So I said, look, and if, if after a couple of years, 456 00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:02,160 I realized that, you know, it just, there's no, what it's called product market fit, 457 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:09,280 I can always go back and find a job again. It's not the end of the world. So, and about the amount 458 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:16,640 of work it's, yeah, it is, I would love to have a business partner. It's just that it hasn't, 459 00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:23,360 it hasn't happened yet. I had other, like the previous, before earlier in my life, I've had 460 00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:30,160 other intents of launching businesses and it was with, with business partners. And it was 461 00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:37,040 easier in the sense of less responsibility and less load on your shoulders. But for some reason 462 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:42,240 they, they didn't work out. These, these other businesses didn't work out, didn't last as long 463 00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:49,440 as Aviva is lasting. So yes, at some point, maybe it happens that I, that I meet someone 464 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:54,480 with, that we share the same values and someone who's passionate and who's also someone who is 465 00:55:54,480 --> 00:56:00,400 willing to put the effort without getting the money. That is very hard. It's like people need 466 00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:07,600 to pay their bills. So finding someone who also wants to just bet on this without getting the 467 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:14,640 economic benefit right away, it would be amazing. I would, I would love to have someone to share 468 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:21,040 the responsibilities. The downside, I mean, yes, a lot of work. And also, 469 00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:30,320 now I have a family. I have two young kids. My day has to finish at five. I have no option. 470 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:37,040 And then it can start again at nine, nine thirty after the kids are in bed. That I mean, of course 471 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,400 I cannot personally, I cannot be extremely productive. I mean, then they have to wake up 472 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:50,880 early again. So, so by working hours are limited and I, it just makes me go much slower. And well, 473 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:56,080 and I have to be okay with that. I just have to be okay with not growing at the pace that I would 474 00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:02,400 have grown if I, if I had other partners. Absolutely. Sometimes it's a bit frustrating. 475 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:09,120 Like I have a list of to do. I have so many people that need to get back to who have sent 476 00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:18,240 me emails and I haven't. And it's just that I do, I say, I do what I can. I, I, and if, 477 00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:26,240 and if they follow up and then, okay, okay, I put this, move this to the top of my, of my to do list, 478 00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:34,160 but the to do list is never going to, to finish. Of course you're doing your best. And let me ask 479 00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:41,520 you about this. Do you think there is a relation between being an immigrant and launching your own 480 00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:47,920 business? Because I feel like there are so many immigrants who launched their own business. And 481 00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:54,720 I think that has to do with how immigrating to a new country is the ultimate sacrifice. You know, 482 00:57:54,720 --> 00:58:02,080 you're sacrificing everything that is familiar to you. Literally you're sacrificing relationships 483 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:08,400 with your family for the hope of a better world. It's the biggest risk that you could take, I think. 484 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:14,640 And so then after the idea of launching a business seems a bit, you know, 485 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:20,800 less intense than immigrating actually. Would you agree with that? 486 00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:30,960 Ah, yes. I think it does take a risk taking personality to both immigrate and launch a 487 00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:35,280 business. Yes. I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. I never, you know what? I didn't think of that. 488 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:41,440 Yes. But it's probably the personality of people who immigrate. Yeah. There might be some overlap 489 00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:47,920 with the person, with, with those who are willing to just leave their jobs and yeah, jump, make, 490 00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:56,720 take the leap. Yes. Take the leap. What would you say to people who are hesitating to take that leap, 491 00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:02,880 to take that extra step, to follow their convictions and dreams? What is your message to 492 00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:14,080 those listeners? Yeah. So as I said at the, for the previous question about the risk and is really, 493 00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:22,160 how are you, think how are you going to make it work financially? Okay. Are you going to save up 494 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:28,960 enough to then be able to do that? Or because that's, of course, it's a survival. It's basically 495 00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:35,680 survival. You have to figure that out first. You have someone who can take more of the financial 496 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:42,720 load in the meantime while things get, or you could also, I mean, my job, I couldn't have 497 00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:47,440 continued in my job and doing this at the same time. It just was not, I mean, I worked in a dairy, 498 00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:54,160 I mean, it just, it's not possible at all. But at first, what I would say, the ideal scenario 499 00:59:55,040 --> 01:00:02,400 would be in my opinion, that if you can keep your job and start doing this, if you don't have kids, 500 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:09,360 you have a lot of time, my friend. I need to say, even if you think that you are super busy, 501 01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:18,160 you have time. You can, after you come back from your job at five, at six, have dinner, and then 502 01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:25,120 work on your business. You can work on your business from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m. every day. 503 01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:35,920 And get it first, understand, get it to the idea, get it off the ground a little, take off. And then 504 01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:44,560 take off. And then when you see that it's working, that it's getting traction, then maybe take the 505 01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:54,000 leap and quit your job then. Or if you can go to a part-time or something like that. So, that would 506 01:00:54,000 --> 01:01:01,600 be probably the main thing of taking the leap is planning for it. And maybe don't leave everything 507 01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:07,760 right away if you haven't figured out a way to make it work financially. That's amazing advice. 508 01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:16,240 So, Betty, I think we answered most of the questions I had. Did you want to 509 01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:28,320 add something before we end this conversation? Okay, yes. I would say it's linked with what I 510 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:36,400 mentioned about the cost and the price. If you want more companies to launch products that 511 01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:46,480 are innovative, that are good for you, that have good ingredients, that are not using, I don't know, 512 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:57,280 child labor, who knows where, or sourcing from any random place. We need to make the decision 513 01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:04,720 of also supporting these businesses with our wallets. We cannot always try to find the cheapest. 514 01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:12,240 Because I can tell you for sure that it's not... Some people have this misconception that, 515 01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:16,720 oh, it's because vegan products, I have heard, vegan products are more expensive. Yes, that's 516 01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:24,240 yes. But the misconception is because they're vegan, they are trying to charge more or something 517 01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:28,960 to go because it's new, then they try to charge more because they are new, and then they lower the 518 01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:35,520 price. It's not that because it's new, it's not that people, their businesses were trying to 519 01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:43,280 be expensive. Everyone is trying to be cheaper. Everyone is trying to be cheap. If you 520 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:49,280 really want to be super cheap, if I wanted to make the product as cheap as possible, 521 01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:56,320 then I could have done something like that and just have no nutrition at all, make a product that 522 01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:04,160 doesn't really add any value to your body, to when you eat it, or making, I don't know, the cheapest. 523 01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:12,160 So in the end, it's like, yes, people want to see startups, want to see products that are good for 524 01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:17,280 them, that they don't use any crap in their ingredients, and they want to do this and that. 525 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:24,240 And then in the end, if they're going to always the cheapest version, you're not being consistent 526 01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:33,440 because making the products in Canada, making the products starting, starting the idea and taking it 527 01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:42,640 from zero to one, you are going to be more expensive at first until you reach a point of maybe 528 01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:48,560 then achieving a certain volume to then compete on price. So that's probably what I would say to 529 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:55,120 people. And for people who want to become an entrepreneur, yes, it's just, I think, it's not 530 01:03:55,120 --> 01:04:03,680 for everyone, but if you have that itch, yeah, plan for it and do it. And you can always go back 531 01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:09,520 and find a job if it didn't work out. So that's all I would leave you with that. 532 01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:17,120 If there are some listeners who are in Montreal, how can they try your product? 533 01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:25,920 Yeah. So right now we have been working on the recipes and all that. So I took the products out 534 01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:32,480 from the stores where I was right now. They're going back in soon, like now in the next few weeks. 535 01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:38,080 So if you're, it depends when are you listening, but the most, the easiest way, the best way is 536 01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:46,000 to go on avivaalternative.com, the company's website, avivaalternative.com. And you're going 537 01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:50,960 to have two options. It's going to either take you online to another website who does all the, 538 01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:59,600 takes care of all the shipping and all the paying, the purchasing process. It's not done in our 539 01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:06,400 website and they take care of delivery and all that. Or you can also see in the where to buy 540 01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:13,280 and find a store that's close to you and try, so try the products and see, see what you think. 541 01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:20,080 Amazing. And of course there will be a link in the description to your company's website. 542 01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:26,640 Betty, thank you so much for your time. This was such a pleasant and inspiring conversation. 543 01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:35,200 Really thank you for your great work. And it shows that you're putting all of your heart 544 01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:41,680 in your product. So thank you for that. Thank you very much for the invitation. And yes, 545 01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:47,040 I had so much fun. Love talking to you, Ryan. Thank you everyone for listening and thank you 546 01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:53,360 so much for being a friend of this show. As always, please share this episode with your community. 547 01:05:53,360 --> 01:06:00,080 Let's inspire more people to take action. If you're listening to this on Apple podcasts, 548 01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:07,600 please leave a five star review. Finally, you can always follow me on Instagram at veganreportpodcast. 549 01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:29,840 Thank you again for listening. Take care and see you soon.