Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report. If you are an
ethical vegan and you care to do more to end animal abuse, then this podcast is for you.
Every Tuesday, discover passionate, thought-provoking and inspiring vegan leaders from all walks of life
who will inspire you to take action. I could be vegan if it was not for the cheese.
I heard this phrase so many times, I stopped counting. I'm at a point where I think cheese
is an addiction and a major obstacle to the vegan cause and I'm no better than the next person.
I have to confess that, as a vegan, I have been in a never-ending quest for the best plant-based cheese
out there. As you might know from listening to episode 11 of the show, I visited the vegan
festival of Montreal and I was definitely hoping to discover a startup that makes excellent vegan
cheese. And against all expectations, I did. This company is called Aviva and this is what you can
read on their website. Aviva is the first plant-based cheese alternative made from chickpeas,
beans and seeds and centered around nutrition. Our three products are made in Montreal,
a source of protein, calcium, iron and fiber, suitable for people with not allergies,
not a source of saturated fat as other alternatives in the market. I thought I need to get the founder
of this company on the show and maybe inspire some of you listeners to launch your own vegan business.
So, Betty Zoller, welcome to the show. Thank you, Ryan. So excited. Love to hear
your introduction. Thank you so much. Amazing. I'm curious, Betty, when did you first identify
the need for better plant-based cheese? Well, when I started trying to become vegan,
and definitely we'll talk a bit more about that, but definitely cheese is a pain point. I need to
say it was for me and it is for a lot of people. So at first, a vegan friend, I wasn't vegan at
the moment, I was just a vegetarian and we'll talk about that after, but this friend introduced me to
vegan cheese making and we were making cashew-based cheese. And I loved it. I'm like, wow. But it's
definitely hard to make your own. It is very time consuming. After the cashew alternatives,
I started looking at something maybe a bit more nutritious. I had children and I was feeling like,
well, there was a lot of allergy suspected, allergies situations with my children. So the nuts
and cheeses were a bit out of the question. Also, I wanted something that I could have for an everyday
product, a bit less expensive as well. So I saw that the other cheeses that were not nut-based,
where they were a bit more affordable, they didn't have any protein or basically no nutrition at all.
And they're perfect. There's definitely a time and place for each of the vegan cheeses that are in
the market. But that was not the type of cheese that I was looking for to have, for example, cubed
with just some crackers, with some grapes as a snack. It was more just to maybe use in recipes
for melting or something like that, as an ingredient for something else. So that's when I said,
well, let's explore and see because I used to eat cheese not only as a vegetarian, not only
for the pleasure of it, but also to get some protein, to get some nutrients. So that was the
part that was missing in the offer that was in that moment in the market.
Yeah. And as you mentioned, most of the cheese out there, the big brands like Dahlia,
they're not really good. First of all, it's not really good. I have to say, I have to confess that
I never find it very good. And also you don't eat it raw. You always use it in a recipe. So you try
to, I guess, minimize its presence in the meal. It's a weird, it's not the way I learned how to
eat it. So yeah, you're completely right about that. And I'm so glad to hear you talk about
proteins, because this is something that not many vegans in the food space talk about.
Even when I look at vegan influencers and the meals they take, pictures of the meals they make,
I always wonder where are the proteins in that meal? It's like we have forgotten about proteins,
but it's essential. We need it. As someone who works out, I always think about my,
the portion of protein I need every day. So I'm so glad to hear you talk about this.
Yes, absolutely. It definitely needs to be something that, yeah, there's also a joke about
how many times you have heard as a vegan or a vegetarian, where do you get your protein?
And that's also, some people are fed up with that. But it is true that you have to pay a bit
of attention in what you're eating. It's not that you're going to just start eating vegetables and
rice and feel great. You can also, maybe if you're not paying attention to your iron as well, you can
be anemic. So it's better if you're like a well-rounded and really try to pay attention.
It's not always super easy, but yes, the idea was to try to make it a bit easier. So it was so simple
for me to just cut some, cube some cheese, dairy cheese back in the time, and just eat like that
with crackers. And I would feel I'm having like something more, you know, sustained or maybe that's
not the word sustained, but something more nutritious basically. And that's more, that's what I wanted
to mimic with Aviva. Yes. And when you give up cheese, you're also giving up some meals that are
a bit very important in the culture, in the way you've been brought up. And what I'm thinking
about right now is a pizza. And that was something I had to grieve. You know, I'm not getting a good
pizza anymore because there's no cheese available out there to make a good pizza recipe. So I have
to eat pizza without the cheese topping or just to, you know, manage with the alternatives out
there. So yeah, did you have to give up any meals because of becoming vegan and having to cut off cheese?
Yes. Well, my journey was, it's still, it's very, has been very progressive. My journey to veganism
has been really, really, yeah, progressive is the best word. I've been in like a transition,
getting more and more for definitely when I launched the company, I, when I, not only when
I launched the company, when I started making these bean based cheese or like you base cheese,
I found that finally there was a lot of things that I could like incorporate. I was very happy
because that really helped me overcome a big challenge that I was having that was with cheese. But
other than that, I don't mind, for example, we don't have any mozzarella yet. It's because I
really, I hear you. It's not easy at all. And since the company has nutrition, the nutrition is very,
very top of mind. It's very important. It was important for me to start the company. It is
something, it's in our values to have the nutrition aspect. Mozzarella is a bit hard to imitate. It is
hard to imitate and as well to be nutritious because you needed to melt a lot. You need to really
melt very, very well. So we, I haven't really, we haven't ventured in mozzarella yet. It is,
I, there are some that are good in the market, but really the best that I would say is to make
your own, your own fresh mozzarella from cashews. I think that cashews are really, work pretty well
for, for like a fresh mozzarella. You know, that one, the white one that's in a bowl of mozzarella.
If you have the time or I mean, it's a project, but you can probably freeze it. I think the part
that was a little hard for me was the extra cooking. That is, I, you can eat, I think you
can eat almost anything. I really find that I, what, if I put the time into it, I can get a very,
very decent, you know, mock or version or vegan version of many things. And the things that I
cannot, I mean, there are different options in the market. You, what I find is that you need to put
in the time. Okay. And that's what I said. Okay. I mean, who's going to be making their own cheese
all the time. So I mean, let's, I think there's opportunity here for something. And so that's the
thing that I have had to give up. I mean, I, I have gotten used to the, the mozzarella out there
for the pizza, for example, the part that I was, is still the hardest for me is when going out,
be visiting friends, going to dinner parties. That was really the last milestone in my journey
to transitioning vegan has been that. And when things are under my control, I usually find a way
to make it work. But when things are not, that is when things get, I, it might feel very limiting.
Well, let's talk about the beginning of your vegan journey. What triggered that transition
in your life? What made you want to make that change?
Yes. Well, I became vegetarian 10 years ago when I moved to Canada. And it was basically,
because it's not that I overnight, I moved to Canada and then I knew what happened to animals
that I was eating. No, it's mainly a fact. The factor was the cooking part. When I was in
Venezuela, it's very cultural. People usually live with their parents until they get married,
or do they move some another to another city. But if you live in the same city as your parents,
you most likely live with your parents. And my mom was doing all the cooking. And I was
doing all the cooking. And I just found too disruptive. I basically, to be completely
honest, did not want to embark on making all my food. It really sounds, I'm not someone who
loves cooking. I need to say that. I really am not someone I love. That's also why this is the type
that I felt super happy to make, because it kind of makes things easier for other people to maybe
just put together a quick meal without spending so much time cooking. So I didn't want to do all the
cooking. I thought it was just going to be too complicated, get all my things. Also in Venezuela,
there are not so many. Vegetarianism is super easy. Now for me, it's like, oh, vegetarian,
that's so easy. Really for me, it's like, how can someone think it's hard to become a vegetarian?
It's extremely easy. For me, that's really level one in difficulty. But at the moment, I saw it as
a huge thing. So even though I had this, I really felt for animals. I was an animal lover. I tried
as many, many people just to kind of not think about it. That's probably what's most omnivores
do. They just don't think about it. And then I moved to Canada and I said, okay, I'm going to
have to cook for myself anyways. So this is the moment. I can cook. It's under my control. So I
can cook whatever I want. And I'm going to start cooking vegetarian. And I found it really easy.
I need to say vegetarianism was super easy. Then I started looking at more documentaries, hearing
more. Really in my head, it was, okay, you don't have to kill animals. So I am perfectly not eating
the meat, not eating like golden like that. I felt like I was doing everything I could. It was
perfect. I met this vegan friend as well in the university. I came here to do my masters. So we
studied together and started talking to be a bit more about that. And I also started in Canada,
it's much more common. Definitely in Minnesota, it's not common to hear about veganism. I mean,
10 years ago it wasn't. I don't know how it is now. But I started hearing more about it and
looking at documentaries and thinking like, oh my God, maybe vegan, maybe vegetarian is not enough.
Then I started, I went to, it was a program called Clinique Rennes Versantes. They were also at the
Vegan Fest. She's a dietitian called Anne-Marie Roy. I have always been very health conscious. I
love to read the labels when I purchase any product. I read the nutritional facts, I read
the ingredient list. I have always been like that. I think my mom is like that and I kind of picked
that up. So she was proposing to teach you how to eat in a very healthy way, plant-based. So her
thing is this whole theory, this whole movement of whole foods, plant-based. And I started learning
about it and I was, wow, this is, it's perfect. It's not only because of the animals, but look at
all the health benefits of this. And it completely resonated with me, but I was working at a dairy
company. Okay. Yes, I was working in marketing right after my masters. I started working at a
dairy company when I was a vegetarian. And actually for me, I mean, cheese was a very
important part of many meals. It was sometimes like cheese centered. Many of the vegetarian
options, that's the protein they have is cheese. So I was like, oh my God, so happy. It's perfect
that I work here. It just happened to be. And of course it was super convenient to get so much.
I would get amazing prices on the products that are usually very expensive. I would get really
good discounts. I would get always, I was in marketing, I would get samples on my, I was
product manager at some point. So I was like really working with the product itself. So getting
tons of samples of cheese all the time, it's just, it was just not going to happen. It was just
really hard. There was, I at home, I would cook more and more plant-based following this advice
from this nutrition program that I took. It was like a three month thing. I learned a lot of tools,
but I just was not ready, especially in the environment where I was in, really basically
food, cheese everywhere I looked. So then I started, I went on maternity leave.
Well, I was with my second child and I was okay. I didn't have the tons of cheese on my desk anymore.
That really helped. And on top of it, my daughter had a lot of issues, like gastrointestinal issues.
And we were thinking, we started with elimination diets. And one of the things that they took away,
the doctors, was dairy, but in a very, very, very strict way. Like not, I had to, every time I would
order anywhere, I would have to ask what, I discovered that there was dairy in so many places
that I didn't know. That felt extremely frustrating for me, but I had to take it super
seriously because we needed to see what was causing these issues. And because I was breastfeeding,
the thing is that because I was breastfeeding her, I needed to eliminate everything from my diet.
And then that was really like the moment when it wasn't under my control anymore. And I didn't have
all the time, my eight hours a day didn't revolve around cheese anymore because I was not working.
So that was the moment when I started taking it much more seriously, but it was only dairy.
And I was eliminating many other things because of this elimination diet was extreme, was brutal,
was really difficult because there were many, many things that I couldn't eat. I was not ready to
take out eggs at the point. It's like, I really, I couldn't eat almost, I couldn't eat soy at some
point. So without soy, for me, that was extremely hard, like too hard. So I said, forget about eggs.
I'm keeping eggs. And then when this whole gastrointestinal problem got resolved, I started
being a bit less strict with all the ingredients, like asking everywhere. I would ask in a restaurant
what if all the ingredients for everything. And I would notice that the rice had butter, for example.
And I felt so limited that after this GI issue was solved, and I didn't have to do that anymore,
I went back to a bit more like a relaxed place where if I was at home, I would control everything
I would eat. And it wasn't really hard for me to get the vegan versions of things, especially now.
But when I was out, I would, and I saw that I'm going to eat like the Greek salad with pieces of
feta in it. That was evident that was dairy, but I wasn't so inquisitive with what's in the
here, reading everything. Sometimes you know that they even have different names in the ingredient
list that you have to be super. So I relaxed that a bit because it was feeling a bit obsessive,
to be honest, at first when I was with the elimination diet, not only with dairy, but with
other products. And then I stayed like that for a little while of being food-savvy,
being flexible. For me, a huge wall that I had in front of me was friends eating out.
We have many friends who invite us for dinner parties. And that was like, what am I gonna do?
I felt like, what am I gonna tell them? They knew I was vegetarian. People always had a vegetarian
option for me. Like, oh my god, am I gonna tell them now? I'm vegan, cook something vegan for me.
I don't know. That felt like a mountain for me to overcome that. I was being just so apologetic
about it. Am I gonna just inconvenience these people, causing them trouble to see what they're
gonna feed me now? I can bring my own things. I did a couple times, but then it felt so weird to me
to bring my own food, do things, and just eat what I was eating and not eating what they were eating.
That, I need to say, was a complete... That was very hard, I need to say for me. So I was being
vegan almost completely when I could control and then when I would be out. But I am a big
proponent. I know that a lot of people, I hear in many vegan discussions that people are completely
against that, against being progress, like doing a transition and being very in a progressive way,
because they say, well, if you were against, if you're against pedophilia, would you do what?
Pedophilia once in a while. I don't... Anyways, I completely understand that point of view.
I understand, I get it. I respect everyone's positions, but for me, I think it's still better
that I ate vegan when I was at home and every time I was to go into a restaurant that I could
order things instead of doing everything at the same time and then feeling so overwhelmed and
isolated and just giving up after because I was feeling I was, I don't know, losing my friends.
I have no clue, but it worked for me. And that's something that I tell people that it works. If you
say just don't, if it doesn't feel like you can manage or that it's going to feel like really a
mountain for you to climb, I don't see the problem of doing it progressively. And I think it's going
to become a little easier. If I had become vegan right away instead of vegetarian first, I think
it would have been much harder for me because it's just so easy to become vegetarian. So I personally
think that that's the best way. That part of the eating out part and telling my friends, only this
year I was in that position of just almost getting out of the closet and telling people like,
okay friends, I am vegan and I am going to bring my things and I hope that's okay with you. You
don't have to worry at all about me. I can figure out. But if someone would, I don't know, the other
time I went to someone's place and they were like, oh, the carrots, the only thing I could eat in my,
when I got there with my food. I'm like, oh well, I can try their, I can eat their carrots. They had
carrots. They had carrots. And I was like, oh well, I can eat their carrots, you know, to share some
food together. It's a big, I think that's, I don't know, not a lot of people talk about this, I find.
But I think that's important. The fact of sitting together and eating the same food has brought us
together for centuries. I mean, I don't know, for thousands of years. So that is a big, was big for
me. And I said, okay, I'm going to eat their carrots, you know. And then he said, oh, sorry,
the carrots have butter. And I was like, oh my God, I hope he didn't. I wish he didn't say that.
So I'm an imperfect vegan. And I'm fine saying that because I'm an imperfect vegan in the sense
that I told him, you know what, next time just don't tell me. It's okay. It's okay. If they have
a bit of butter, it's fine. If I see the cheese right there, or if I, I mean, if you're baked
muffins, it's obvious that they have, you know, that, oh, I don't see the, I don't see the egg
in the muffin. So it's not there. Not to that point. But I mean, if it's something a bit like that,
I can get it a bit, I can let it slip. And that's why I consider myself like an imperfect vegan,
still working and still doing progress. And that's maybe at some point, I think I'm just
going to feel completely okay or bringing all my food or I don't know. I think it's going to happen.
And I'm striving to become a more perfect, let's say in quotes, vegan. But that's my journey was a
little, a little long and bumpy. I think you're completely reasonable. And I wholeheartedly agree
with everything you said. You know, I'm someone who do things in a quite a radical way. When I
decided to become vegan, I became vegan overnight. And it was tough because I did not know what to
cook or how to cook. And I starved for a few weeks after that. But this is my way. I know that
if I had taken a more gradual approach like yours, I would never have reached that vegan goal.
But we're all different people with different personalities. And we should not be thinking about
converting people to veganism as just a single formula that we can apply to every different,
you know, personalities. And I think that one of the reasons why it's very difficult for you is,
I think you come from a culture where it's important to be together. And I understand that,
because I also come from a culture where it is important to, like you said, share a meal together
as a family, as a tribe, and a culture where you don't leave the family nest before you get married.
You know, I come from North Africa. It's very important to that social creation aspect,
you know, that cultural value of food. It takes a big, big place. And when I became vegan, I felt
like I was cutting myself out of my family in a way. I don't know if you understand that. So
I wonder how what what was the reaction of your family from Venezuela who learned that you were
becoming vegan? Did you experience that same feeling of alienation from your culture or your
family ways? Yes. Well, first, I take my hat off with you because, yes, I completely understand it.
So, yes, it takes a lot to come in and say, like, I'm a vegan. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to eat
this food. It takes a lot of courage. So, yes, I need to recognize it. I mean, I think that sometimes
people are like, oh, becoming vegan is so easy. I mean, I think that if you put that expectation
there and people then are faced with the reality, I and I understand we want more people to join and
we want really the cages to be empty forever and no animals to be exploited anymore. So we think
that, yes, come in. It's so easy. It's so fun. I understand. But it's also like parenthood.
Sometimes I give somebody, oh, it's a bit. Yeah, but now you hear more and more about the struggles
of it, too. So when you go in, you know what you're going to be dealing with and you're like,
OK, I'm going to take this. I'm going to learn along the way. So, well, a lot of courage. You
really have a lot of courage. OK, since I became a more like at this last stage of vegan, like
not caring about anyone, just going in with my own food and just telling everyone like I'm not
going to eat this food. I'm sorry. I haven't been back to Venezuela since then. Last time I went to
Venezuela was five years ago. So I was only a vegetarian and I mean, I was. Yeah, I was
only I was just vegetarian. So I haven't been in that position yet. I think with vegetarian,
it was it was I just told them right away after I moved that I go look, I'm not me. I'm in Canada
and I decided that I'm going to become vegetarian. I'm going to cook my own food. So I think there's
no problem. And when I when I got there after, yes, I mean, they had to. But as I said, the journey
is so easy. It is. It is super easy. So if there's anyone listening who are like, oh, we're eating
meat, that's very easy to really to give up. And you're already doing something. So maybe start
start there. I don't know. That's that's my own personality. But they when I go next time,
I really don't know what I'm going to do. Like to be. Yeah, I don't know. I think I'm going to
probably cook something with my mom. She I mean, she's my mom. She's there. It was a small family,
like the just the family unit. So it's going to be just my family and her. She you know, my father
passed away. I don't have siblings. So that's very easy. She's very understanding. And anyway, so when
I go to my bit more, my extended family, like my aunt, the dinner, na na na, maybe I won't just say
anything. I won't say anything. And I will just eat their salad and eat their rice. And that's it.
I don't I am more the type of like no, no fuss too much about it, because then I don't want it to
become, you know, a topic for the night. No one has to inspect what I'm putting on my plate.
And yeah, and I am fine. Like if the right if she happened to put butter in the rice, I'm okay.
Okay, so that I'm not gonna go there. And they say, Okay, so what's in the rice? And what's in
the vegetables? I said vegan. I am I'm not gonna do that right now. Next time I go that I'm planning
on going in a couple months. That's gonna be my my strategy. But I yes, I they they know the business
I have. So they know that my business is a vegan business. So it makes sense for them. It makes
total sense that I'm that I don't need dairy that I don't need. Maybe eggs are not too aware. But
yeah, that's that's that's what I'm taking it. And for us of now what when I was faced with the
vegetarian thing that was super easy. Well, you can expect that your veganism is going to be
the discussion of every family, you know, gathering, because that that was my case, you know,
every time I was with mostly extended family, but even close family like aunts and uncles.
Every meal, you know, it was I had to give a speech on veganism and how I did not need to be vegan.
And no, I was not getting skinnier, you know, every time it was so tiring. So yeah,
family dinners become a bit painful, you know. But, you know, as an immigrant, we don't go there
very often. So we don't have to experience that. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Another fascinating thing
about your cultural background is that you got inspired from Venezuelan cooking to make
the vegan cheese. And I was wondering, how did that happen? How do you start making vegan cheese
as a professional, you know, not just making mozzarella with quesadillas in your
kitchen, you know, for your household, but really making cheese that you're going to sell to
strangers. So how did how did that happen? How did you make the recipe and how did you get inspired
from your cultural background? Yes, well, the first the beans itself pulses like legumes, that
legumes, that is the aspect that they were a huge staple for me from before. So we do we do it
legumes very often in Latin America, I would say. Yeah, super early know with Mexican food,
everywhere. I don't know if everywhere really, but in many countries from Latin America, legumes,
meaning chickpeas, beans, lentils are common, or at least more common than in Canada. And that's
that. So I was eating them often, and as a vegetarian, and then in my transition to veganism
and all this, they were really a big part of our weekly meal rotation, there was always beans.
And I just love beans. I love not only I think they are like a super food. I yes, like I because
they are so nutritious. They are affordable. And on top of it, when I learned that Canada was one
of the largest producers of pulses in the world, like, oh, my God, like, this is like, perfect.
Like this is the there's really sustainability wise, they are great. They are a crop that doesn't
require almost any nitrogen fertilizers. They have a property to fixate nitrogen to the soil.
So they're used for agriculture to as a rotational crop. So when they need the soil to gather
nutrients, again, they plant legumes to to kind of enrich their soil. So I just love this. I love
the fact that they are seeds. I got so inspired by the seed aspect of it. Like, wow, they imagine
how much life there's inside a seed and really every legume is a seed. So yeah, so nerd with this
legume thing. And when I was thinking about an alternative cheese, something that's not made from
nuts, because of allergies, and because of also environmental, I don't want to get into into that.
Look, I do eat cashew cheese from time to time. I love variety. I think it's great. I do have the
the diazo. Look, the diafeta, of course, Aviva Feta is something else. But I need to say the
diafeta is not bad. They've gone a long way from what they were a long time ago. Yes, they've been
they have improved a lot. So there's space for for all sorts. Okay. And for the cashew cheese as well.
But there are some issues with the harvest methods of cashews. That's also why they're so
expensive. They come from so far away. So maybe it's not like the most sustainable, you know, option
out there. So then I thought, okay, I want something that has protein, something that has no
allergen, it's not an allergen that has no allergens. Because I'm telling you, when I had to
eliminate all allergens from my diet, to test for it, this elimination diet, it was hell for me.
I couldn't eat anything. Yeah, I was like, really, people with severe allergies or things like that,
they cannot eat anything. They are, they must feel very miserable, really. So I said, I'm going to do
maybe something or then, yeah, you have the other options that have no no allergens, but they also
have no nutrition. So I started, well, okay, I think really pulses make so much sense. They also
have a very neutral taste. I mean, neutral compared to you have seen probably chickpea brown,
it's or things like that. So you can play with them. And so I said, okay, let's let's do this. I
looked for a couple recipes. There was not much online. When we started making our cashew cheese
back in the day, there were many recipes online. There were books about it. For pulses, no. I found
some videos, but very not much. Some of them were using like chickpea flour, which is completely
different. But I made a couple tests just to see. It has potential. It has potential. But as I
mentioned at first, I don't love spending hours in the kitchen. I was working in marketing. I also,
the thing of why I said to sell it for other people, because I was working in marketing for
a dairy company for packaged foods. I was already in the market, let's say, I mean completely,
but the market that I was trying to mimic. So yes, I was a bit familiar on how the industry works,
how consumer foods get created. That's what I was doing as a job. I was looking at trends in the
market, looking at gaps in the market and saying, okay, how can we adapt our portfolio? What line
extensions we could do? How can we improve this product that's been maybe has this ingredients
we are not liking it anymore. So how can we make it better? So I was doing that as that was my job
for some. So that made things much easier. I was already kind of used to how to doing this. And I
did that exercise, the product management, but for my own idea. But I'm very conscious about my
limitations. I think that in general, as an entrepreneur, I mean, some people, of course,
you have to almost do it all. But I think I was lucky enough to have, because it's a very
innovative area. Also, the fact of using beans or the pulses was very innovative.
I did some postings when you mentioned about the interns for interns to get interns from food
science. So I did my MBA at McGill. And I was in contact with people from food science from
the faculty. So I reached out to them. And they said, okay, send me your job posting, we're going
to actually create among students. And that's what I did. And I said, like, it's to develop a new
plant based cheese. And I think, well, I guess a lot of people were attracted to it. People wanted
to get real life experience developing a new product. And yeah, I got my first two students
in summer of 2021. That's when we started working on more prototypes. So after I made my first test,
then I really handed it over to them and told them, okay, this is what I've done so far.
This is the objective. The objective back when I first started was, no, because I was with all
this whole foods plant based mentality. I was like, I don't know, I don't want any oil in it.
I just want it to be all the fat, because of course you need fat to mimic cheese. Cheese is
basically fat, more or less. I mean, it has of course many other things, but fat is a very
important component of cheese. So I said, okay, all the fat, I want it to come from seeds. So from
nut butters and things, not nuts, but seed butters or things like that, no oil. And I wanted to have
like this, I wanted to hit the same macros as dairy cheese. So I wanted to have six grams of
protein per serving. And I wanted to have this much, but half the saturated fat or almost no
saturated fat, this and that and that. I mean, we started with the first prototype.
And then I started doing a lot of consumer panels with their help. We had a next group of students
the next summer. So after we gathered data from the first prototype, we adapted for the second
prototype. And now we're really in the third iteration of the product. And that was basically
based on feedback because you need to reach a middle point, let's say, between the super ultra
nutritious, healthy thing and something that resembles cheese. Cheese itself is not the most
nutritious, super healthy thing. It has saturated fat and you cannot not have saturated fat and be
called cheese. You can be called something else. So that was also something at some point I was in
a crossroads, like should I maybe go with this super healthy version that I cannot really call
cheese because it's too far. So that was a bit the process. And then I said, no, I think we need
more cheese. People need more cheese. Cheese is a struggle for so many people. If we really, so
that's why I said, no, I'm not going to make a healthy, nice, great tasting pate. I'm full of
following with cheese. So we continued, continued working. And yes, now it doesn't have six grams
of protein. Okay. Now we had to incorporate starches for the texture. The texture was too
soft. So we need to do, you know, but now I think we reached a very good middle point of
something that is still nutritious, is still healthy. And it's much closer to the Rio cheese.
We're still making the one you tested at the Vegan Fest wasn't as hard as this one. So we haven't
been, we have been like continuously improving the recipe and I think we're now almost, almost ready.
So even the Vegan Fest, that was really what, a couple of months ago,
now we already have a version that's a bit harder because that's what people told us. People in the
Vegan Fest were like, yeah, we, we love it. It's amazing. And that we had a little, an iPad there
and a QR code for people to fill out. So we gathered the feedback right away. Okay. People
want it harder. Let's work on it. So we went back and making it now harder. So we have it kind of
our version that I think it's the final one. Are you saying there's a better version of the vegan
one? Are you saying there's a better version out there than what I can say? Yes. I'm so happy to
say, well, it's just a little, it's just firmer. That's the only difference. It has more bite.
So that, that, that, that was the only, the only missing part. And that's what we, we confirmed.
That was what people wanted. Are you in Montreal? Because I should send you. Yes, yes, I am.
So yeah, you're going to get your harder version. You're going to get it after we,
you'll tell me your address and I'll send you the harder version of Aviva.
You're amazing, Betty. Seriously. I mean, and this is getting me hungry. This conversation is getting
me hungry. I want to talk about entrepreneurship because you mentioned, you mentioned that, but
first, I just want to address something that has been a struggle for many big brands out there.
And it's how to label their products because many will use the label plant-based and not use the
label vegan. And you use both, I think plant-based and vegan, but many shy away from the vegan label
because they find it a bit too maybe partisan or political, or maybe it has a certain social
connotation or cultural connotation that they don't like. And I love the fact that you don't shy away
from the vegan label. So how did you make that decision of writing vegan on, on the packaging?
Oh, I'm so happy you noticed. Really very, you observed. Because the reasons for
me to, and I say me even though I've had a lot of help. So many times I say we,
but in this conversation, I have led these efforts from the people that who have helped me along the
way. But I had the objective is the, of this product is to get more people to switch away from
animal based products because of the ethical reasons behind it. So that is the original.
There's many more people who are interested in this type of products and it's not at all because
of animal ethics, but the main motivation behind this company was animal rights. So that's why I
wanted to have it there. And I also wanted people to know, I think plant-based, it's can be more
flexible, I think. That's what comes to mind. So that's why when I was doing this thing of,
when I was faced with a very problematic situation of no options out there and nothing to eat,
and instead of just getting the fries, I would maybe get something with the fries. Because that's
many times, you know, that's the only option in some places. Sometimes I would get the vegetarian
option or things like that. And I would consider myself more like plant-based because I, in my head,
it's a bit more flexible, let's say. And in the developing of the product and the ingredients we
choose, we are not being flexible at all. So that is something that I ask every supplier. So that's
why I think vegan represents more the values behind the company and also the not letting anything,
look, I am not in a position to see, I cannot see if the companies have done animal testing.
That would be when I'm more powerful. I hope that one day, now it's really a struggle to find
suppliers to start with that would sell you in lower quantities. But I think that when you have
purchasing power, you can start getting much more picky about your suppliers and even asking
more things about because there's not so much information. You can see information that there's
no dairy at all in the products. For example, the things with bacterial cultures, something with vegan
versus plant-based. There's something with bacterial cultures that I used to use, now I don't.
But some of them, they don't have any dairy in it. There's no dairy in the product. So
even if you're extremely sensitive, you can have a ton and nothing's going to happen because
there's no traces of dairy at all in this culture. But the origin of that culture was dairy. So even
though there was no dairy, I think that would be considered plant-based, I think. That would be
considered plant-based because there's really no animal products in the product. But they used
animal at the beginning. So I made the choice back then to not go with that culture because of that.
So that's why vegan, yeah. But I would like to take it a step further and start asking suppliers
or getting more information about animal testing. I don't think it's so common. I don't really think
it's common for food products to do animal testing. It's more for really pharmaceuticals or
cosmetics or things like that. But yeah, if I could, I would really try and verify as much as
possible to really make sure that there was no animals exploited or harmed in the process.
Yeah, that's what's important. I mean, what if a few microbes were taken away from an animal
and then cultivated in a lab a few years ago? I don't think this is going a bit too far with
the vegan label, but I love that. I love that you use the vegan brand with the ethical
reasons that you mentioned. I truly think it's amazing. And anyway, I think about 75% of the
world population is intolerant to dairy products. So you have a market of people out there for
mock cheese, plant-based cheese, people who just like vegans want to enjoy pizza and want to have
an option for that. But let's talk about the entrepreneurial aspect of it. You are the sole
owner and founder of your company, which is a bit rare in these days. Usually you have at least two
co-founders for a company. And I just can't imagine how much work there is behind launching Aviva.
So can you mention a bit how it's like to be an entrepreneur? What were your fears before launching
your business? And how is your reality right now as the sole owner and founder of your company?
And founder of your business? Yes. Well, the fears before, I think
most people, I think the elephant in the room for many, for entrepreneurship sometimes is
how are you going to make a living out of it? It's like, how are you going to pay your bills?
That is a, that's a limitation for many people. I need to say that I have been extremely lucky
that I am in a household. I have my husband as well. We have agreed on making adjustments
in our budget. We were, our plan was to buy a house a couple of years ago. And then we decided
we will have to postpone it because I need to do this now before we buy a house. So of course,
financial, it's a big impact. You're going to have to really cut your budget. If you,
I think the two best moments would be maybe if you have a very understanding, supportive partner
who can take on more of the weight. I have done things here and there. I do things here and there
to also get some extra revenue because now at first you cannot really take money from the company,
everything that you make, you have to put it back to the company. So that is a big aspect that
made me doubt if at first, how are we going to make this work? I mean, we're supposed to buy a
house. Now we have to really just postpone that plan or things like that. So that's a big aspect
of it. And, or also when, if anyone listening who still lives with their parents, that is an amazing
moment to also launch a company when you, like that is, it's perfect because you look, it's not
that you have to pay rent. You can even get some food from your parents. It's like economically
make it work. So, and the, the thing of taking the risk and leaving a job that's of course,
it's like, okay, I'm going to leave my, but that was not, I wasn't so scared of that because I,
what I thought is like, look, I try now. I see if the market is ready to pay for it, if they like it,
if they feel that there's a need, if it's solving a problem for them and if they are
able to pay the price because unfortunately that's a very, that's a huge barrier is for small
companies. Now you're not going to have the volume of the dairy business for sure. And even compared
to Daiya or other, some other brands, they, if you see they're imported from Greece, Greece, they,
they make, they have big volumes of, they make, I don't know what's going on in Greece, but
many vegan brands of vegan cheese you see, they imported from Greece and they make, they make it
work with a lot of volume. So when you're doing whatever you're doing, if it's not a food business
or anything you're doing, probably you're going to start with a small volume and everything's going
to be more expensive for you. Labor, ingredients, everything is going to be more expensive. So
people will have to pay more for your product. So you need to make sure that the value you're
offering is high enough for people to be able to pay that price. So the, the quitting the job,
okay, continuing just on that idea for a second. So I said, look, and if, if after a couple of years,
I realized that, you know, it just, there's no, what it's called product market fit,
I can always go back and find a job again. It's not the end of the world. So, and about the amount
of work it's, yeah, it is, I would love to have a business partner. It's just that it hasn't,
it hasn't happened yet. I had other, like the previous, before earlier in my life, I've had
other intents of launching businesses and it was with, with business partners. And it was
easier in the sense of less responsibility and less load on your shoulders. But for some reason
they, they didn't work out. These, these other businesses didn't work out, didn't last as long
as Aviva is lasting. So yes, at some point, maybe it happens that I, that I meet someone
with, that we share the same values and someone who's passionate and who's also someone who is
willing to put the effort without getting the money. That is very hard. It's like people need
to pay their bills. So finding someone who also wants to just bet on this without getting the
economic benefit right away, it would be amazing. I would, I would love to have someone to share
the responsibilities. The downside, I mean, yes, a lot of work. And also,
now I have a family. I have two young kids. My day has to finish at five. I have no option.
And then it can start again at nine, nine thirty after the kids are in bed. That I mean, of course
I cannot personally, I cannot be extremely productive. I mean, then they have to wake up
early again. So, so by working hours are limited and I, it just makes me go much slower. And well,
and I have to be okay with that. I just have to be okay with not growing at the pace that I would
have grown if I, if I had other partners. Absolutely. Sometimes it's a bit frustrating.
Like I have a list of to do. I have so many people that need to get back to who have sent
me emails and I haven't. And it's just that I do, I say, I do what I can. I, I, and if,
and if they follow up and then, okay, okay, I put this, move this to the top of my, of my to do list,
but the to do list is never going to, to finish. Of course you're doing your best. And let me ask
you about this. Do you think there is a relation between being an immigrant and launching your own
business? Because I feel like there are so many immigrants who launched their own business. And
I think that has to do with how immigrating to a new country is the ultimate sacrifice. You know,
you're sacrificing everything that is familiar to you. Literally you're sacrificing relationships
with your family for the hope of a better world. It's the biggest risk that you could take, I think.
And so then after the idea of launching a business seems a bit, you know,
less intense than immigrating actually. Would you agree with that?
Ah, yes. I think it does take a risk taking personality to both immigrate and launch a
business. Yes. I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. I never, you know what? I didn't think of that.
Yes. But it's probably the personality of people who immigrate. Yeah. There might be some overlap
with the person, with, with those who are willing to just leave their jobs and yeah, jump, make,
take the leap. Yes. Take the leap. What would you say to people who are hesitating to take that leap,
to take that extra step, to follow their convictions and dreams? What is your message to
those listeners? Yeah. So as I said at the, for the previous question about the risk and is really,
how are you, think how are you going to make it work financially? Okay. Are you going to save up
enough to then be able to do that? Or because that's, of course, it's a survival. It's basically
survival. You have to figure that out first. You have someone who can take more of the financial
load in the meantime while things get, or you could also, I mean, my job, I couldn't have
continued in my job and doing this at the same time. It just was not, I mean, I worked in a dairy,
I mean, it just, it's not possible at all. But at first, what I would say, the ideal scenario
would be in my opinion, that if you can keep your job and start doing this, if you don't have kids,
you have a lot of time, my friend. I need to say, even if you think that you are super busy,
you have time. You can, after you come back from your job at five, at six, have dinner, and then
work on your business. You can work on your business from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m. every day.
And get it first, understand, get it to the idea, get it off the ground a little, take off. And then
take off. And then when you see that it's working, that it's getting traction, then maybe take the
leap and quit your job then. Or if you can go to a part-time or something like that. So, that would
be probably the main thing of taking the leap is planning for it. And maybe don't leave everything
right away if you haven't figured out a way to make it work financially. That's amazing advice.
So, Betty, I think we answered most of the questions I had. Did you want to
add something before we end this conversation? Okay, yes. I would say it's linked with what I
mentioned about the cost and the price. If you want more companies to launch products that
are innovative, that are good for you, that have good ingredients, that are not using, I don't know,
child labor, who knows where, or sourcing from any random place. We need to make the decision
of also supporting these businesses with our wallets. We cannot always try to find the cheapest.
Because I can tell you for sure that it's not... Some people have this misconception that,
oh, it's because vegan products, I have heard, vegan products are more expensive. Yes, that's
yes. But the misconception is because they're vegan, they are trying to charge more or something
to go because it's new, then they try to charge more because they are new, and then they lower the
price. It's not that because it's new, it's not that people, their businesses were trying to
be expensive. Everyone is trying to be cheaper. Everyone is trying to be cheap. If you
really want to be super cheap, if I wanted to make the product as cheap as possible,
then I could have done something like that and just have no nutrition at all, make a product that
doesn't really add any value to your body, to when you eat it, or making, I don't know, the cheapest.
So in the end, it's like, yes, people want to see startups, want to see products that are good for
them, that they don't use any crap in their ingredients, and they want to do this and that.
And then in the end, if they're going to always the cheapest version, you're not being consistent
because making the products in Canada, making the products starting, starting the idea and taking it
from zero to one, you are going to be more expensive at first until you reach a point of maybe
then achieving a certain volume to then compete on price. So that's probably what I would say to
people. And for people who want to become an entrepreneur, yes, it's just, I think, it's not
for everyone, but if you have that itch, yeah, plan for it and do it. And you can always go back
and find a job if it didn't work out. So that's all I would leave you with that.
If there are some listeners who are in Montreal, how can they try your product?
Yeah. So right now we have been working on the recipes and all that. So I took the products out
from the stores where I was right now. They're going back in soon, like now in the next few weeks.
So if you're, it depends when are you listening, but the most, the easiest way, the best way is
to go on avivaalternative.com, the company's website, avivaalternative.com. And you're going
to have two options. It's going to either take you online to another website who does all the,
takes care of all the shipping and all the paying, the purchasing process. It's not done in our
website and they take care of delivery and all that. Or you can also see in the where to buy
and find a store that's close to you and try, so try the products and see, see what you think.
Amazing. And of course there will be a link in the description to your company's website.
Betty, thank you so much for your time. This was such a pleasant and inspiring conversation.
Really thank you for your great work. And it shows that you're putting all of your heart
in your product. So thank you for that. Thank you very much for the invitation. And yes,
I had so much fun. Love talking to you, Ryan. Thank you everyone for listening and thank you
so much for being a friend of this show. As always, please share this episode with your community.
Let's inspire more people to take action. If you're listening to this on Apple podcasts,
please leave a five star review. Finally, you can always follow me on Instagram at veganreportpodcast.
Thank you again for listening. Take care and see you soon.