Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.
If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're
not sure where to start, then this podcast is for you.
Every week discover passionate, thought-provoking and inspiring animal rights leaders from all
walks of life who will inspire you to take action and help you find your voice, your
own special contribution to the animal rights movement.
Today I have with me Galen, who is a volunteer for Anonymous for the Voiceless.
Now if you're vegan, you must know about them.
They always wear those distinctive V for Vendetta masks you know from that movie with Natalie
Portman.
And if you visit their website, and the link is in the description, you're welcomed with
a short but powerful statement.
And human supremacy.
And the mission statement reads as follow, Anonymous for the Voiceless is an animal rights
organization specializing in edifying the public on the streets with cubes of truths
and fostering highly effective activism groups worldwide.
We hold an abolitionist stance against all forms of non-human animal exploitation and
promote a clear and direct animal rights message.
Galen, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for being here.
Thanks Ryan.
So the mission statement is very clear, but I still have many questions.
Why do you have to be anonymous and wear those masks?
It seems a bit random to me.
What is a cube of truth?
What is your activism strategy?
So here's a bundle of questions for you.
Well I wouldn't read too much into that.
We don't actually have to be anonymous.
Nobody is hiding their identity or anything like that.
The masks at the end of the day, it's simply a uniform and a way to attract attention,
I suppose.
Try to make the people who are standing inside of the cube holding the TVs look as much like
statues as possible.
The idea is to first stand out, attract attention with the black attire and the white mask,
and also to keep people's focus on the TVs.
I suppose there's some psychological impact when somebody is wearing a mask.
You don't feel like you have to be looking at them in the eyes.
You'll be more focused on what's on the screens.
So that's the purpose of the masks.
Why they chose anonymous for the voices, I actually couldn't really say.
I don't know why they chose that name, but I think it sounds good and of course they
could be trying to piggyback off a little bit about the much bigger, that big anonymous
hacker group.
They aren't part of that.
It's a completely separate group, but I'm sure that it's a good way to attract attention
with that look.
You went over it quickly, but a cube of truth is a bunch of people holding TVs with footage
of what's happening inside the slaughterhouse.
Is that a good summary of what is a cube of truth?
Yeah, that's a pretty good summary.
So we show mostly what's happening inside slaughterhouses, but also what's happening
on farms, including fur farms, farms for down and wool and everything like this.
So it covers all the industries.
It covers meats, dairy, eggs, and clothing.
So fur, leather, down, et cetera, and all aspects of it from the slaughter to all the
little details about what happens that people have no clue about.
Industries that people think are not as bad, for example, wool.
People think that the sheep are just shaved, and some people think we're even doing the
sheep a favor because they grow too much wool.
Of course, they've been genetically bred to do that.
It's not what the natural sheep is like.
And so it goes into actually all the dirty little details of those industries.
And for example, there's a practice called museling.
I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly, where basically the farmer will hook the sheep
up to a rack so that they're immobile.
They will cut the skin off around their butts.
And the idea is so that their feces don't get stuck in their excess fur, but they're
essentially being skinned alive.
And it's just a common practice in the wool industry that people have no idea about.
So we show them that.
And that's basically the idea.
We just the keep of truth is people standing in the square showing, holding a window into
the industry basically that they wouldn't otherwise be able to see through.
And who chooses the footage?
Is it something part of the global organization and you have a bank of footage?
Or is it the volunteers that hold the TVs that choose the footage?
It's centralized.
So it's the founders of AV.
They're based in Australia.
I started there, I forget when.
But it's quite spenturally run, I would say.
And for good reason.
It's not that they want to have power and control or anything like that.
They want it to be uniform.
So one big unified movement that is recognizable, so someone sees them in Germany and then they
see the same people in Canada.
They'll know it's the same group.
And it really shows how big of a movement it really is.
So it's for that purpose.
And for that purpose as well, all the footage is also standard to answer your question.
And then if I remember correctly, there's the cube of truth, so the wall of footage.
And then there is a person meeting with the people who decide to stop and look at the
footage.
So what's the role of that person?
So what we do is when a bystander, like a member of the public, comes across, they're
walking by, we don't solicit.
We will wait for them to stop on their own.
So we know that they're interested.
We wait for them to watch the footage for let's say 10 to 20 seconds.
And if they look like they are interested and curious about it, then somebody from our
group will go up and speak to them.
And these people who are speaking to the members of the public, they're not wearing a mask.
It's only the people holding the TVs who are wearing the masks.
So the person who goes up to speak to them, their role is going to be to basically ask
them a series of questions.
Just maybe explain a bit about the footage that they're seeing, but essentially it's
to walk them through a series of questions using something that called the Socratic method.
I don't know if you're familiar with that.
Yes.
Yeah.
So basic questions to lead them to their own conclusion.
So for example, it would be more nuanced than this, but are you against animal cruelty?
People are obviously going to say yes, if they're a rational sane person.
So then the next question would be, do you think that this looks like cruelty, what you're
seeing on the screen?
Yes, of course it is.
Do you think that we need animal products to be healthy and survive in today's world?
Most people thankfully now know that we don't need it.
So usually they say, no, I know that we don't need to have to eat animal products to be
healthy.
And then so you would follow up with something like, so if you are against animal cruelty
and you know that this industry is full of animal cruelty and you agree that we don't
need it to survive, how do we justify doing this to animals?
And so quite often people will actually concede an agreeable and they'll say, well, I guess
we can't justify it.
And then you'll talk a bit more about it.
The conversations are a lot longer than that, but that's the basic idea.
That's amazing because that's philosophy from antiquity.
That's what you had in ancient Greece, you had philosophers in the streets and then they
would spread the word about what they believe in.
And if people were convinced, then they were converted.
That's where the word conversion came from and they would follow the philosophy of that
philosopher.
That's amazing that you get your inspiration from that tradition.
Is there any training to join Anonymous for the Voiceless?
I guess holding the TV doesn't require much training, but for the person who has to speak
with the public, do you have like a special class or something?
There are special classes sometimes held by people, but it's not a routine thing.
It's kind of just as demand comes up.
But we don't require people to take training or anything like that.
But what we do ask them to do is if a new person joins our group as a volunteer and
they want to do outreach to the public like that, we ask them to come to three cubes first
and shadow other people's conversations.
So just kind of stand in the background, listen to how we talk to them, absorb it and just
understand the process that we use.
And then we also ask them to go to YouTube and watch videos of people like Joy Carpshaw
or Earthling Ed.
There's a few other bigger names who have a lot of videos who use the exact same approach.
And just by listening to those videos and shadowing people at our events, people will
get the hang of it and that will be enough.
But sometimes people do request more specific training and some people in the community
will host training and go into more detail.
So it can happen if people request it.
I prefer the former method, the one you described.
I think it's amazing.
I'm against, I don't like the model of lecture.
You have to sit and listen to someone.
But having a more practical hands-on approach on training yourself to ask those questions
and to be a member of the group, that's the best way to learn.
And that's also the most pleasant way to learn.
Yeah, I agree.
So I'm very curious, Galen, what has been your vegan journey so far and how did you
find yourself volunteering for Anonymous for the Voiceless?
Well, it was a long one, I guess.
The idea sort of entered my head, I suppose, when I was pretty young, maybe in my early
teens, for example.
And my parents always had dogs and I loved those dogs and I would cuddle with them and
spoil them and treat them really well.
And for that reason, I thought I was being very kind to animals, like I was a friend
to the animal world.
And I prided myself on that.
And then I would go sit down later that day for dinner and my parents would put a chicken
breast or steak in front of me and I would happily eat it.
But then soon I would start thinking, well, am I like full of shit basically?
Because I say I love animals and I cuddled my dogs.
I spoil these two animals here who I know are sentient and can feel fear and pain and
so I treat them well for that reason.
But then I go home, I sit down later that day and I eat the corpse.
I have a different animal every single day, multiple times a day, who I know for sure
they're also sentient, just like my dogs, who can feel fear and pain.
So how does that make sense?
How can I say that I'm a friend to the animal world when I spoil these two dogs, but then
hundreds of animals a year I'm willingly having slaughtered and mistreated for my own pleasure?
I wrestled with that idea for many, many years before I actually acted on it.
And I think it was around when I was 26 or 27 that I actually finally said, that's it.
After many, many years of trying to justify it, trying to find a reason not to change,
eventually I just said, no, it's ridiculous.
I have to do something.
And so that day when I had that epiphany, I just said, okay, I'm not going to have any
meat today.
I'll see how it goes.
I didn't have meat that day.
Next day I didn't have meat.
And then before I knew it, it was a week and I didn't have meat and I feel fine.
So I'll try another week and another week and that was it.
I never looked back.
And so that was 10 years ago now.
And of course, I'm saying meat because at first I went vegetarian, like so many people
because I had no clue about what was happening in the dairy and ag industry.
I thought, you know, the basic thought while they're not being killed, so it's not a problem.
And then maybe three or four years after going vegetarian, a coworker who was vegan asked
me to go watch a video from Gary Yourofsky, who I'm sure you're familiar with.
And I think it's on the internet, it's called the best feature of a hero or something like
that.
So I watched that and then he kind of called out vegetarians for being total hypocrites.
And luckily I'm rational, so I didn't get defensive about it.
And I listened and thought about it and then looked into it a bit and I was like, yeah,
okay, he's completely right to find if I'm vegetarian because I'm against animal cruelty.
Obviously, I have to be vegan as well.
Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
So that's how I went vegan.
That's interesting because he has a very confrontational approach.
And that's also the approach of anonymous for the voiceless.
I was on the fence for a time on that approach.
I was thinking maybe we should not be offensive toward people.
You should not push them into this lifestyle or just not be confrontational.
But I'm changing my mind.
So I'm wondering, do you have any thoughts on that?
Yes, yes, I do.
I would say anonymous for the voiceless is not so much confrontational as it is just
brutally honest.
And so we do end up in confrontational situations sometimes, that's for sure.
People will just get so offended and defensive that we're implying that they are abusing
animals because most people think of themselves as being against animal cruelty and that they
would never hurt a fly.
And then here we are telling them to their face that they are total hypocrites and that
they support animal abuse and torture every single day of their life, multiple times a
day and gladly do it.
So most people, we appeal to people's rationality and a lot of people are rational about it
and appreciate the honesty.
But sometimes people do get triggered by it and it ends up being confrontational.
But I think the confrontation is good.
I'm not in any way opposed to it because I think it's something that elicits such a strong
defensive reaction will stick with that person.
And I'm hoping that after I have a confrontational experience like that, that the person after
they calm down, they will try, they will reflect on it and try to reconcile their values with
their actions to try to make themselves feel better and maybe to try to prove that we were
wrong or something.
And in the process of trying to do that, when they're in a more calm situation, they'll
realize that, oh, maybe we are actually right.
Because when you think about it, it's quite obvious.
Obviously abuse and torture is prevalent in the animal agriculture industry.
If you're supporting that industry, then you're supporting that treatment towards animals.
So it's not really any way around it.
There are other actions that I participate in outside of Anonymous for the Voiceless,
all of which are much more confrontational as well.
But again, I support that.
I think I started out like you as well.
I was against the confrontational side of it.
But I think in any social justice movement, confrontation is going to be an inevitable
and necessary part of it.
And your intentions are good.
You're not trying to harm or upset people.
It's just that the truth, like you said, is brutal in its nature, is very shocking.
So you're very attracted to this method.
How did you make the transition of just being vegan to doing activism work?
Well, similar to the process of going vegan, it took me a while to get into activism.
And at first I started out, well, I'm against animal cruelty.
I don't want to support this industry.
So I'm just going to remove myself from the equation.
And I'm not responsible for what anyone else chooses to do.
After a while of doing that, I started to have different thoughts about it.
Like I'm against racism and child abuse and all these other things that are obviously
wrong and that everyone else is also against.
Would I be complacent with someone around me being racist or abusing a child or abusing
a dog?
No, I would say something if I saw this happening.
So why am I complacent with everyone around me supporting extreme animal cruelty every
single day?
And after reasoning with that for a little while, I thought, obviously I can't be complacent
with that.
So I have to do something.
And it started out, I was watching, like I kind of got for selfish reasons addicted to
watching these videos of like Joy Carb Strong.
I'm forgetting some of the names, Earthling Ed, those are the two ones that stick with
me.
And just because I found it so entertaining to watch these grown adults who have good
jobs, they're smart and rational in every other aspect of their life.
But as soon as this topic comes up, I found it super entertaining and fascinating to watch
them get cornered with these really easy questions and just get exposed as total hypocrites and
just watching how they react to that.
So I found that very entertaining.
And then eventually, after watching a lot of that and having those thoughts that I can't
be complacent with people doing it, I thought I should try to do something myself and I
should actually try to find a way to outreach people.
And then just by chance, in one of the videos I was watching, one of the people who came
by to speak to Joey, I think it was, asked how they can get involved.
And then he explained it on the video, how to get involved with anonymous for the voiceless.
And it's like, oh, okay, well, maybe that's it.
So I went to the website, found a local chapter and signed up and went that week, I think.
And never look back.
That's amazing.
What would be your message for vegans who are listening to this and who want to take
action but are still on the fence about it?
I'd say think about exactly what I just said about why are you vegan?
Are you vegan because you're against animal cruelty?
I think that's probably what the majority of people go vegan for.
And if you're against animal cruelty, are you complacent with other people doing something
that you're so passionately against all around you every day, all the time?
And if the answer is no, then what, like, how could you, how could you justify not speaking
up against it?
So in terms of AV, it's very low pressure.
It's an excellent entry point into activism, I would say.
You show up, there's no pressure to do anything.
You can sit on the sidelines and just watch and not talk to anybody.
You can hold the TV if you want or not.
Some people will just like, you know, mostly sit on the side and watch and slowly get their
feet wet.
And other people want to jump into outreach right away.
But we have the three day rule.
So if you're looking for something to get into, then Anonymous for the Voiceless is
definitely I would say the best entry point.
And then from there, you'll meet the wider community and people who are involved in organizing
all sorts of other things.
And so you'll find something that fits your personality and something that you're good
at.
Yeah, that's what I would say.
I agree.
And one obstacle that people name when we talk about volunteering or taking action is
I don't have the time.
So how much time do you invest on your activism work?
And how do you manage, create a balance between your personal life, work life and your volunteering
work?
It's sometimes a little bit challenging.
As one of the organizers of the chapter here in Montreal, I have to be present, you know,
pretty much every single time from the start or from before the beginning until after the
end of the event to clean everything up.
And I'd say I put maybe six or seven hours per week into it every Saturday or Sunday
usually.
And my job is extremely busy.
Like I'm an accountant at a big public company.
And so I work a lot and I'm able to make it work because I think it's important.
And so I feel I do my part by facilitating these events for volunteers to come to.
And I could, you know, sometimes I have more capacity to do something else.
And so I'll go volunteer at someone else's event, but kind of at a bare minimum, I put
my six or seven hours a week into Anonymous for the Voiceless to facilitate those events.
And I have all the equipment.
I'm the person with the car.
And so I bring all the equipment to and from.
And if you join Anonymous for the Voiceless, for example, it's not like you have to come
to every single event.
You can choose which ones to come to.
You can show up halfway through for the last hour, for the first half or whatever.
So it's very flexible.
So if time management is an issue or you're too busy, then there's absolutely no downside
to joining because you only have the option to come when you're available.
For me, giving is something a little bit selfish.
Let me explain.
I get so much from giving money, giving time, giving resources, advice to people, you know,
brings me so much meaning, so much pleasure, joy, happiness in my life.
So in your case, what does activism work in animal rights bring you?
That's an interesting point that you brought up.
I've thought about that before as well, because I do get the, I don't know if I'd call it
satisfaction, but like maybe alleviation of some guilt about not doing anything about
it.
So at the end of the day, when you really boil it down, I guess it is kind of like a
selfish reason.
And, you know, I can philosophize about that's all I want, but at the end of the day, regardless
of the reason I'm doing it, I think it's good work.
And the animals that don't care what my reasoning is at the end of the day, whether or not I
get satisfaction from it.
So I'd say that, yeah, it's because I really believe it's extremely important work.
Like there's just an unimaginable amount of suffering, like the scale, I think even like
it catches me off guard sometimes.
Like, sometimes I'll forget just the scale of it, like the amount of suffering that's
happening this very instance to, you know, tens of billions of animals just all the time,
every second of every day of every year.
So yeah, I think I get to satisfy the need that I have to do something about it, about
something that is such a huge injustice.
And you mentioned earlier, racism and other forms of abuse.
So many scholars, historians, anthropologists, sociologists have argued that racism and other
forms of abuse and war and violence between humans came from our exploitation of animals,
that this was the beginning, that what we did to animals and what we are doing to animals
is just the first step to then doing it to follow human beings.
So yeah, it's violence against animals, but also violence against humans.
That's why I love the saying animal liberation is human liberation.
Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely true.
And I will often end my conversations, like after I've had a good conversation with somebody
and I know they're interested, then I'll end it with kind of the exact point that you're
making.
Like I'll ask them to imagine a world where children aren't taught to discriminate against
animals and they aren't taught to accept and be done to the violence that we cause towards
animals.
How much better do you think humans would treat each other if they didn't learn to first
condone or be complacent with violence towards animals?
So let's talk about those conversations you had with people.
I'm sure you have plenty of stories of, you mentioned confronting people and how sometimes
they're upset and such.
So can you share with us some stories of conversations with people, not just the negative ones, but
also the good ones, the great impact you've made?
I would love to hear about that.
For sure.
Some of the more ridiculous conversations I have seem to revolve around a lot of people
thinking that plants feel pain, for example.
And until I started doing outreach, it never crossed my mind that anyone would ever, much
less like a grown adult, would actually think that plants feel pain.
There's so many reasons why that's just not the case.
But on top of that, it's like, even if they did feel pain, well, a vegan diet or lifestyle
causes so much less plant life to be ended.
Just the sheer number of crops that we have to grow and feed to animals.
Wait, are you saying this is like a common response?
Yeah, I think it's an epidemic.
Really?
Yeah.
It's crazy the number of people who think, grown adults who really believe to their core
that plants are sentient and feel pain.
And so 99% of my conversations are pretty rational.
Even if someone starts with that point, I'll point out that most crops are grown to feed
animals.
So, okay, fine.
Even if they still believe that plants feel pain, we can agree that less plants are going
to die because of that.
But some people are just so irrational and they'll stick to it and they won't listen
to anything I'm saying.
And so then at that point, they're just so far gone.
They're kind of lost.
And so I'll focus my energy on trying to get them to admit to something totally insane
that hopefully later on they'll reflect on.
And so someone is so convinced that their houseplants are sentient and feel pain.
And so I'll get them to admit eventually that, okay, I guess there's no difference.
There's no ethical difference between me chopping my houseplants in half and chopping my cats
in half.
And they'll fully admit it.
And then at that point, I'm like, okay, well, it's nice talking to you and then off they
go.
So there's no value added in continuing the conversation after that point.
And I just hope that they will reflect on how insane they sounded and what they said
was.
So I think that sums up the crazy conversations that I have.
In terms of good conversations, there are some people that we've spoken to who aren't
vegan at the time, of course, but the conversation goes very well.
And they're rational and they're making both good points on both sides.
And we eventually come to a good conclusion that, okay, we don't need to be abusing animals.
And they're going to think about it and research how to go on a vegan diet.
And then they actually stick to the word and we know because a few months later, or even
maybe up to a year later, they'll come back to us saying that they went vegan.
They'll just kind of have it upon some across us and come talk to us and say, hey, because
I spoke to you a few months ago or last year, I thought about that and I actually became
vegan and I've been vegan now for months or whatever.
And then sometimes somebody will even come back as a volunteer.
And so those moments are always nice because first it's nice that they do that and we get
another volunteer.
But more so it's nice that it's kind of proof that what we're doing is having at least some
impact, like very tangible proof that what we're doing made a difference.
That is heartwarming to hear.
But I have a follow up question, which is a bit of a tough question.
It is wanting to convince people and for them to become vegan and make that transition.
But the problem I don't see many people address is how many vegans and vegetarians decide
to return back to their old ways, old diet, old lifestyle and forget about veganism and
being vegetarian even.
So have you thought about this problem and do you have maybe solutions?
In terms of solutions, I'm not sure what the solution would be other than somehow better
education around how to be vegan.
I know that what you're saying is true.
I don't know what the exact statistics are about how many people go back, but I know
for sure obviously it does happen.
I know somebody who did it, but I think that if people were better educated on nutrition,
then it would be less likely to happen because I'm speculating that one of the reasons that
they do it is probably because they're feeling malnourished or something because they didn't
properly adopt a vegan diet and maybe they were eating meat before and they just got
rid of the meat, dairy and eggs, but didn't substitute it with anything.
And so obviously they're going to be missing a lot of nutrients.
But when you just put some basic time and effort into researching what you need from
a nutritional standpoint, it's very easy to get what you need at any grocery store to
get easy, cheap plant-based food.
And it's also easy and cheap to just get, like if you're a little bit unsure about certain
things, just buy a multivitamin, which will kind of bridge a lot of gaps that you have
with multivitamin.
It's perfectly healthy and lots of people who aren't vegan have multivitamins.
But for some reason, when you introduce the topic of multivitamins in a vegan context,
people will use that, oh, you need to supplement because all that kind of stuff.
But at the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with the multivitamin.
You're just getting extra nutrients.
Yeah, to answer your question, I think the solution is just better education.
I agree with that.
I'm still thinking about what you said about plants having feelings and how it's a common
response.
I mean, you made me lose my faith in humanity.
People who believe that plants have feelings, maybe they need guidance in order to plan
their diet.
Yeah, and I think it's also a blame we should put on some vegans who hesitate to talk about
supplements or they want to claim that veganism is this fountain of youth that of course you
don't need B12 supplements.
Of course you don't need multivitamins, but actually you do.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, especially B12.
I know there are some other sources of it, but I don't know how you get maybe enough
of it from non-multivitamin sources.
But luckily we live in a developed world and everyone has easy access to cheap multivitamins.
And so it's very easy.
And at the end of the day, if it comes to torturing a sentient animal or taking a multivitamin,
what's the rational person going to do?
Why would you choose torturing an animal over just taking a perfectly healthy multivitamin?
There's no point in denying the realities of nutrition, but at the end of the day, it
is perfectly possible to be completely healthy on the vegan diet.
And we're busy people.
You were talking about how your work takes a big place in your life.
I don't want to be anxious about what I'm eating.
I want to cover my bases.
So multivitamin is a great solution for that.
And to add to the rationale behind leaving the vegan lifestyle, I think that another
good reason is some people start for health reasons.
They become vegan for health reasons and they don't really care about animals.
And that's something else I like about anonymous for the voices because you're making the
ethical arguments for being vegan, not the health arguments, not even the environmental
argument.
Because I think that if you become vegan for the environment or for health reasons, I think
chances are you will stop being vegan after a while because it will be too difficult on
your social life, on your diet and so on in terms of organizing your diet.
So yeah, do you agree with me?
100%.
If you don't have that ethical reason to keep you focused on it, you're much more likely
to diverge and maybe fall back onto a meat-based diet because it's maybe just because of the
world we live in, maybe a little bit easier.
You have to think a little bit less about it, especially if you're going out to restaurants.
Because it's also like a well-balanced meat-based diet is also perfectly healthy.
That's just the reality of it.
And so somebody who is health-focused isn't going to have a problem being healthy necessarily
on a meat-based diet if you just purposely choose healthy food.
So without that moral reasoning behind it, for sure people are going to be much more
likely to go back to it.
Yeah, I mean, my family eats a Mediterranean diet.
I'm not going to argue with them that veganism is healthier.
I mean, it doesn't make sense.
I don't have the strong position here.
So you spoke about a future in which veganism is more prevalent.
And I always wonder, what's the end goal?
You know, at what point do we say, okay, we have fulfilled animal liberation?
Is it major changes in the law?
Do we make eating meat illegal?
I try to picture that I'm someone who likes to have a clear idea of where we're going
with this, with our actions.
And I understand that maybe we won't get there before a century.
But I was wondering if you had envisioned that future.
Yeah, that's a good question.
And I think my answer would be when the laws change, when animal products, at least in
the developed world, become illegal, the same way that other forms of animal exploitation
and torture are illegal, like dog fighting.
And when the majority of people agree that, yeah, animal cruelty is wrong and taste pleasure
is not a justification for supporting animal abuse.
So I agree with you.
It's probably like a century away from that point.
Although it might get accelerated just because of climate crisis reasons, like meat might
become more heavily taxed.
And if we get into super extreme situations, maybe become illegal.
But regardless of the reasons that it happens, I will be happy that it does happen.
And there's, I don't know if you call it a phenomenon, but something that happens when
like if somebody is forced to go vegan for some reason, like let's say it becomes illegal
because of climate issues.
When they're no longer contributing to that animal cruelty, they're more likely to reflect
on it in a more honest way and look back on it and say, okay, animal exploitation for
that, it was obviously totally wrong.
Now that they're not implicated in it anymore, they're not so defensive about it.
And so they'll retroactively look back and agree that it's wrong.
And so even if it becomes illegal for reasons other than ethical, I think it would still
facilitate a mental shift in most of, or a lot of people at least, into adopting that
mindset that we shouldn't be exploiting animals.
And for it to be sustainable, I think that people need to adopt that mindset that it
is wrong.
Otherwise, let's say we get through the climate crisis and then the government makes it illegal
again.
And we're right back to where it was unless people's, what do I call it?
Their perception of it has changed.
So we need to win the war of ideas.
Yeah.
At the end of the day, for long-term sustainable results, I think that's the case.
I get the sense that you're optimistic about the future.
Am I right?
Yes.
Maybe not in my lifetime, but I'll do my part to push it forward while I'm here.
But I don't expect to see a total overhaul or a vegan world necessarily before I go.
But in the long term, in the long term for humanity, I am optimistic about it.
Amazing.
So Galen, I think we covered most of what I wanted to talk about.
Did you want to add something before we end this conversation?
I think the only thing I would add is to touch again on your point about people on the fence
about volunteering.
I really encourage people to start volunteering because if you're against animal cruelty and
you want to see a world that is kinder towards animals, the only way that that's going to
happen is if people like yourselves stand up and do something about it.
Yeah.
I mean, that's just being realistic.
It's not even optimistic, pessimistic.
It's just being realistic.
You need to do something about it.
Whatever your feelings are, if we want to see change, we need to do something to make
it happen.
Exactly.
People are so complacent and brainwashed into thinking that animal exploitation is totally
normal and there's nothing wrong with what we do to animals.
So that's not going to change on its own.
It's going to take people to stand up and expose it.
Amazing.
That's a great message to end this conversation.
So once again, thank you so much for having been a guest on this podcast and thank you
for your great work.
This was a pleasure, Galen.
Pleasure's on mine.
Thank you, Ryan.
Thank you everyone for listening.
I hope that Galen gave you a good idea of what it's like to volunteer for Anonymous
for the Voiceless.
If you feel like getting a mask and helping out, I invite you to check the link below
and see if there is any Anonymous for the Voiceless chapter in your area.
And if there is no group in your city or town, what if you're a started one?
Don't miss next week's episode.
It's a very special episode because you know the horrendous footage of animals being
tortured that Anonymous uses in their Cube of Truth.
Well, we will be investigating how this footage is produced with Natalie, an activist who
broke in a pig farm to capture some of the worst images of animal exploitation out there.
Subscribe now and don't miss out on her incredible story.
And as always, please tell your family and friends about the show and why you love it
so much.
Finally, you can always follow me on Instagram at veganreportpodcast.
Thank you again for listening.
Take care and see you soon.