1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,380 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report. 2 00:00:04,380 --> 00:00:09,400 If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,440 not sure where to start, then this podcast is for you. 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:19,320 Every week discover passionate, thought-provoking and inspiring animal rights leaders from all 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:25,500 walks of life who will inspire you to take action and help you find your voice, your 6 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:29,920 own special contribution to the animal rights movement. 7 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:35,520 Today I have with me Galen, who is a volunteer for Anonymous for the Voiceless. 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,100 Now if you're vegan, you must know about them. 9 00:00:39,100 --> 00:00:44,720 They always wear those distinctive V for Vendetta masks you know from that movie with Natalie 10 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,040 Portman. 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,680 And if you visit their website, and the link is in the description, you're welcomed with 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,840 a short but powerful statement. 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,340 And human supremacy. 14 00:00:56,340 --> 00:01:01,920 And the mission statement reads as follow, Anonymous for the Voiceless is an animal rights 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:09,360 organization specializing in edifying the public on the streets with cubes of truths 16 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,600 and fostering highly effective activism groups worldwide. 17 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,880 We hold an abolitionist stance against all forms of non-human animal exploitation and 18 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,680 promote a clear and direct animal rights message. 19 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,040 Galen, welcome to the podcast. 20 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,440 Thank you so much for being here. 21 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:28,800 Thanks Ryan. 22 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,440 So the mission statement is very clear, but I still have many questions. 23 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,560 Why do you have to be anonymous and wear those masks? 24 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,080 It seems a bit random to me. 25 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:40,860 What is a cube of truth? 26 00:01:40,860 --> 00:01:42,920 What is your activism strategy? 27 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,680 So here's a bundle of questions for you. 28 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,140 Well I wouldn't read too much into that. 29 00:01:48,140 --> 00:01:50,440 We don't actually have to be anonymous. 30 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,040 Nobody is hiding their identity or anything like that. 31 00:01:54,040 --> 00:02:00,280 The masks at the end of the day, it's simply a uniform and a way to attract attention, 32 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:01,440 I suppose. 33 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:08,720 Try to make the people who are standing inside of the cube holding the TVs look as much like 34 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,520 statues as possible. 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:18,680 The idea is to first stand out, attract attention with the black attire and the white mask, 36 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,200 and also to keep people's focus on the TVs. 37 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,040 I suppose there's some psychological impact when somebody is wearing a mask. 38 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,560 You don't feel like you have to be looking at them in the eyes. 39 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,880 You'll be more focused on what's on the screens. 40 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,440 So that's the purpose of the masks. 41 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,440 Why they chose anonymous for the voices, I actually couldn't really say. 42 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:45,280 I don't know why they chose that name, but I think it sounds good and of course they 43 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:52,720 could be trying to piggyback off a little bit about the much bigger, that big anonymous 44 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,200 hacker group. 45 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,560 They aren't part of that. 46 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:04,360 It's a completely separate group, but I'm sure that it's a good way to attract attention 47 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,880 with that look. 48 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:18,440 You went over it quickly, but a cube of truth is a bunch of people holding TVs with footage 49 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,680 of what's happening inside the slaughterhouse. 50 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,400 Is that a good summary of what is a cube of truth? 51 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,160 Yeah, that's a pretty good summary. 52 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,280 So we show mostly what's happening inside slaughterhouses, but also what's happening 53 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:42,840 on farms, including fur farms, farms for down and wool and everything like this. 54 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,480 So it covers all the industries. 55 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:49,600 It covers meats, dairy, eggs, and clothing. 56 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:57,600 So fur, leather, down, et cetera, and all aspects of it from the slaughter to all the 57 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,040 little details about what happens that people have no clue about. 58 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:08,720 Industries that people think are not as bad, for example, wool. 59 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,080 People think that the sheep are just shaved, and some people think we're even doing the 60 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,880 sheep a favor because they grow too much wool. 61 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,360 Of course, they've been genetically bred to do that. 62 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,680 It's not what the natural sheep is like. 63 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:26,000 And so it goes into actually all the dirty little details of those industries. 64 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,480 And for example, there's a practice called museling. 65 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:34,880 I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly, where basically the farmer will hook the sheep 66 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,800 up to a rack so that they're immobile. 67 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,800 They will cut the skin off around their butts. 68 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:47,080 And the idea is so that their feces don't get stuck in their excess fur, but they're 69 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,880 essentially being skinned alive. 70 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,880 And it's just a common practice in the wool industry that people have no idea about. 71 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,640 So we show them that. 72 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,200 And that's basically the idea. 73 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:04,560 We just the keep of truth is people standing in the square showing, holding a window into 74 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:09,880 the industry basically that they wouldn't otherwise be able to see through. 75 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,320 And who chooses the footage? 76 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:19,680 Is it something part of the global organization and you have a bank of footage? 77 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:25,840 Or is it the volunteers that hold the TVs that choose the footage? 78 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:26,920 It's centralized. 79 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:33,840 So it's the founders of AV. 80 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:34,840 They're based in Australia. 81 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:37,780 I started there, I forget when. 82 00:05:37,780 --> 00:05:43,400 But it's quite spenturally run, I would say. 83 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:44,400 And for good reason. 84 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,360 It's not that they want to have power and control or anything like that. 85 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,460 They want it to be uniform. 86 00:05:51,460 --> 00:05:57,840 So one big unified movement that is recognizable, so someone sees them in Germany and then they 87 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:00,400 see the same people in Canada. 88 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,040 They'll know it's the same group. 89 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:09,440 And it really shows how big of a movement it really is. 90 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:10,440 So it's for that purpose. 91 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,640 And for that purpose as well, all the footage is also standard to answer your question. 92 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:20,840 And then if I remember correctly, there's the cube of truth, so the wall of footage. 93 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:25,880 And then there is a person meeting with the people who decide to stop and look at the 94 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,000 footage. 95 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,280 So what's the role of that person? 96 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:36,920 So what we do is when a bystander, like a member of the public, comes across, they're 97 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,640 walking by, we don't solicit. 98 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,920 We will wait for them to stop on their own. 99 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:44,000 So we know that they're interested. 100 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,880 We wait for them to watch the footage for let's say 10 to 20 seconds. 101 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:55,040 And if they look like they are interested and curious about it, then somebody from our 102 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:56,720 group will go up and speak to them. 103 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:02,120 And these people who are speaking to the members of the public, they're not wearing a mask. 104 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,160 It's only the people holding the TVs who are wearing the masks. 105 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:12,640 So the person who goes up to speak to them, their role is going to be to basically ask 106 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,200 them a series of questions. 107 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:20,760 Just maybe explain a bit about the footage that they're seeing, but essentially it's 108 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,880 to walk them through a series of questions using something that called the Socratic method. 109 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,040 I don't know if you're familiar with that. 110 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:29,040 Yes. 111 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:30,040 Yeah. 112 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,600 So basic questions to lead them to their own conclusion. 113 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:39,960 So for example, it would be more nuanced than this, but are you against animal cruelty? 114 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,640 People are obviously going to say yes, if they're a rational sane person. 115 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,360 So then the next question would be, do you think that this looks like cruelty, what you're 116 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:49,360 seeing on the screen? 117 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,280 Yes, of course it is. 118 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:56,620 Do you think that we need animal products to be healthy and survive in today's world? 119 00:07:56,620 --> 00:07:59,560 Most people thankfully now know that we don't need it. 120 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:04,360 So usually they say, no, I know that we don't need to have to eat animal products to be 121 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:05,600 healthy. 122 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:11,160 And then so you would follow up with something like, so if you are against animal cruelty 123 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,680 and you know that this industry is full of animal cruelty and you agree that we don't 124 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,920 need it to survive, how do we justify doing this to animals? 125 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:27,180 And so quite often people will actually concede an agreeable and they'll say, well, I guess 126 00:08:27,180 --> 00:08:28,800 we can't justify it. 127 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,680 And then you'll talk a bit more about it. 128 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,220 The conversations are a lot longer than that, but that's the basic idea. 129 00:08:36,220 --> 00:08:41,560 That's amazing because that's philosophy from antiquity. 130 00:08:41,560 --> 00:08:48,120 That's what you had in ancient Greece, you had philosophers in the streets and then they 131 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,600 would spread the word about what they believe in. 132 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:57,600 And if people were convinced, then they were converted. 133 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,680 That's where the word conversion came from and they would follow the philosophy of that 134 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:03,680 philosopher. 135 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:09,560 That's amazing that you get your inspiration from that tradition. 136 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:14,240 Is there any training to join Anonymous for the Voiceless? 137 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:21,840 I guess holding the TV doesn't require much training, but for the person who has to speak 138 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,840 with the public, do you have like a special class or something? 139 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:32,760 There are special classes sometimes held by people, but it's not a routine thing. 140 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,880 It's kind of just as demand comes up. 141 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,680 But we don't require people to take training or anything like that. 142 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:44,360 But what we do ask them to do is if a new person joins our group as a volunteer and 143 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:53,280 they want to do outreach to the public like that, we ask them to come to three cubes first 144 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:54,880 and shadow other people's conversations. 145 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:00,600 So just kind of stand in the background, listen to how we talk to them, absorb it and just 146 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,600 understand the process that we use. 147 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:10,800 And then we also ask them to go to YouTube and watch videos of people like Joy Carpshaw 148 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:11,800 or Earthling Ed. 149 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:20,400 There's a few other bigger names who have a lot of videos who use the exact same approach. 150 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:28,640 And just by listening to those videos and shadowing people at our events, people will 151 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,040 get the hang of it and that will be enough. 152 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,220 But sometimes people do request more specific training and some people in the community 153 00:10:36,220 --> 00:10:40,320 will host training and go into more detail. 154 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,760 So it can happen if people request it. 155 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,920 I prefer the former method, the one you described. 156 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:49,040 I think it's amazing. 157 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:54,120 I'm against, I don't like the model of lecture. 158 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,120 You have to sit and listen to someone. 159 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:04,180 But having a more practical hands-on approach on training yourself to ask those questions 160 00:11:04,180 --> 00:11:08,080 and to be a member of the group, that's the best way to learn. 161 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,120 And that's also the most pleasant way to learn. 162 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,600 Yeah, I agree. 163 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:20,540 So I'm very curious, Galen, what has been your vegan journey so far and how did you 164 00:11:20,540 --> 00:11:25,480 find yourself volunteering for Anonymous for the Voiceless? 165 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:31,800 Well, it was a long one, I guess. 166 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:38,880 The idea sort of entered my head, I suppose, when I was pretty young, maybe in my early 167 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,840 teens, for example. 168 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:47,280 And my parents always had dogs and I loved those dogs and I would cuddle with them and 169 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,880 spoil them and treat them really well. 170 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:57,680 And for that reason, I thought I was being very kind to animals, like I was a friend 171 00:11:57,680 --> 00:11:59,300 to the animal world. 172 00:11:59,300 --> 00:12:02,240 And I prided myself on that. 173 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:07,720 And then I would go sit down later that day for dinner and my parents would put a chicken 174 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,600 breast or steak in front of me and I would happily eat it. 175 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:19,560 But then soon I would start thinking, well, am I like full of shit basically? 176 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:23,440 Because I say I love animals and I cuddled my dogs. 177 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:29,000 I spoil these two animals here who I know are sentient and can feel fear and pain and 178 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,240 so I treat them well for that reason. 179 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:36,000 But then I go home, I sit down later that day and I eat the corpse. 180 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:43,160 I have a different animal every single day, multiple times a day, who I know for sure 181 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,880 they're also sentient, just like my dogs, who can feel fear and pain. 182 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:47,880 So how does that make sense? 183 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:52,800 How can I say that I'm a friend to the animal world when I spoil these two dogs, but then 184 00:12:52,800 --> 00:13:00,560 hundreds of animals a year I'm willingly having slaughtered and mistreated for my own pleasure? 185 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:07,800 I wrestled with that idea for many, many years before I actually acted on it. 186 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:18,280 And I think it was around when I was 26 or 27 that I actually finally said, that's it. 187 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:23,320 After many, many years of trying to justify it, trying to find a reason not to change, 188 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,960 eventually I just said, no, it's ridiculous. 189 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,680 I have to do something. 190 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:34,680 And so that day when I had that epiphany, I just said, okay, I'm not going to have any 191 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:35,680 meat today. 192 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:36,680 I'll see how it goes. 193 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:37,680 I didn't have meat that day. 194 00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:39,240 Next day I didn't have meat. 195 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,760 And then before I knew it, it was a week and I didn't have meat and I feel fine. 196 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,280 So I'll try another week and another week and that was it. 197 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,000 I never looked back. 198 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,040 And so that was 10 years ago now. 199 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,120 And of course, I'm saying meat because at first I went vegetarian, like so many people 200 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,320 because I had no clue about what was happening in the dairy and ag industry. 201 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:06,120 I thought, you know, the basic thought while they're not being killed, so it's not a problem. 202 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:13,080 And then maybe three or four years after going vegetarian, a coworker who was vegan asked 203 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:20,980 me to go watch a video from Gary Yourofsky, who I'm sure you're familiar with. 204 00:14:20,980 --> 00:14:24,560 And I think it's on the internet, it's called the best feature of a hero or something like 205 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:25,560 that. 206 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:31,480 So I watched that and then he kind of called out vegetarians for being total hypocrites. 207 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:36,640 And luckily I'm rational, so I didn't get defensive about it. 208 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,600 And I listened and thought about it and then looked into it a bit and I was like, yeah, 209 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:45,240 okay, he's completely right to find if I'm vegetarian because I'm against animal cruelty. 210 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,800 Obviously, I have to be vegan as well. 211 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,760 Otherwise it doesn't make any sense. 212 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:56,960 So that's how I went vegan. 213 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:02,000 That's interesting because he has a very confrontational approach. 214 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,620 And that's also the approach of anonymous for the voiceless. 215 00:15:05,620 --> 00:15:10,040 I was on the fence for a time on that approach. 216 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:15,440 I was thinking maybe we should not be offensive toward people. 217 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:22,320 You should not push them into this lifestyle or just not be confrontational. 218 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,000 But I'm changing my mind. 219 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,040 So I'm wondering, do you have any thoughts on that? 220 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,800 Yes, yes, I do. 221 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:38,240 I would say anonymous for the voiceless is not so much confrontational as it is just 222 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:39,240 brutally honest. 223 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:47,640 And so we do end up in confrontational situations sometimes, that's for sure. 224 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:53,720 People will just get so offended and defensive that we're implying that they are abusing 225 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,640 animals because most people think of themselves as being against animal cruelty and that they 226 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,800 would never hurt a fly. 227 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:08,400 And then here we are telling them to their face that they are total hypocrites and that 228 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:13,000 they support animal abuse and torture every single day of their life, multiple times a 229 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,600 day and gladly do it. 230 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:24,520 So most people, we appeal to people's rationality and a lot of people are rational about it 231 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:25,960 and appreciate the honesty. 232 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:31,360 But sometimes people do get triggered by it and it ends up being confrontational. 233 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,080 But I think the confrontation is good. 234 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:41,200 I'm not in any way opposed to it because I think it's something that elicits such a strong 235 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,040 defensive reaction will stick with that person. 236 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:54,440 And I'm hoping that after I have a confrontational experience like that, that the person after 237 00:16:54,440 --> 00:17:01,920 they calm down, they will try, they will reflect on it and try to reconcile their values with 238 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:09,600 their actions to try to make themselves feel better and maybe to try to prove that we were 239 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:10,600 wrong or something. 240 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,480 And in the process of trying to do that, when they're in a more calm situation, they'll 241 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,160 realize that, oh, maybe we are actually right. 242 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,880 Because when you think about it, it's quite obvious. 243 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:26,080 Obviously abuse and torture is prevalent in the animal agriculture industry. 244 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:31,160 If you're supporting that industry, then you're supporting that treatment towards animals. 245 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,240 So it's not really any way around it. 246 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:40,480 There are other actions that I participate in outside of Anonymous for the Voiceless, 247 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,840 all of which are much more confrontational as well. 248 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,280 But again, I support that. 249 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:49,880 I think I started out like you as well. 250 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,640 I was against the confrontational side of it. 251 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:59,720 But I think in any social justice movement, confrontation is going to be an inevitable 252 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,640 and necessary part of it. 253 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,040 And your intentions are good. 254 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,560 You're not trying to harm or upset people. 255 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:15,920 It's just that the truth, like you said, is brutal in its nature, is very shocking. 256 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,480 So you're very attracted to this method. 257 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:24,920 How did you make the transition of just being vegan to doing activism work? 258 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:33,720 Well, similar to the process of going vegan, it took me a while to get into activism. 259 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,600 And at first I started out, well, I'm against animal cruelty. 260 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,900 I don't want to support this industry. 261 00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:41,560 So I'm just going to remove myself from the equation. 262 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,840 And I'm not responsible for what anyone else chooses to do. 263 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:51,840 After a while of doing that, I started to have different thoughts about it. 264 00:18:51,840 --> 00:19:00,800 Like I'm against racism and child abuse and all these other things that are obviously 265 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,440 wrong and that everyone else is also against. 266 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,740 Would I be complacent with someone around me being racist or abusing a child or abusing 267 00:19:09,740 --> 00:19:10,740 a dog? 268 00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:15,080 No, I would say something if I saw this happening. 269 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:20,100 So why am I complacent with everyone around me supporting extreme animal cruelty every 270 00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:21,840 single day? 271 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:27,040 And after reasoning with that for a little while, I thought, obviously I can't be complacent 272 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,040 with that. 273 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,600 So I have to do something. 274 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:36,960 And it started out, I was watching, like I kind of got for selfish reasons addicted to 275 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,440 watching these videos of like Joy Carb Strong. 276 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,240 I'm forgetting some of the names, Earthling Ed, those are the two ones that stick with 277 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:45,500 me. 278 00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:54,360 And just because I found it so entertaining to watch these grown adults who have good 279 00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:57,720 jobs, they're smart and rational in every other aspect of their life. 280 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,160 But as soon as this topic comes up, I found it super entertaining and fascinating to watch 281 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:08,160 them get cornered with these really easy questions and just get exposed as total hypocrites and 282 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,280 just watching how they react to that. 283 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:12,280 So I found that very entertaining. 284 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,200 And then eventually, after watching a lot of that and having those thoughts that I can't 285 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,520 be complacent with people doing it, I thought I should try to do something myself and I 286 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,040 should actually try to find a way to outreach people. 287 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,000 And then just by chance, in one of the videos I was watching, one of the people who came 288 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,920 by to speak to Joey, I think it was, asked how they can get involved. 289 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,920 And then he explained it on the video, how to get involved with anonymous for the voiceless. 290 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,200 And it's like, oh, okay, well, maybe that's it. 291 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:45,120 So I went to the website, found a local chapter and signed up and went that week, I think. 292 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,440 And never look back. 293 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,400 That's amazing. 294 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:55,960 What would be your message for vegans who are listening to this and who want to take 295 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,200 action but are still on the fence about it? 296 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:06,440 I'd say think about exactly what I just said about why are you vegan? 297 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,160 Are you vegan because you're against animal cruelty? 298 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:15,480 I think that's probably what the majority of people go vegan for. 299 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:21,800 And if you're against animal cruelty, are you complacent with other people doing something 300 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:27,200 that you're so passionately against all around you every day, all the time? 301 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:35,640 And if the answer is no, then what, like, how could you, how could you justify not speaking 302 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,600 up against it? 303 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:44,720 So in terms of AV, it's very low pressure. 304 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:49,200 It's an excellent entry point into activism, I would say. 305 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,280 You show up, there's no pressure to do anything. 306 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,120 You can sit on the sidelines and just watch and not talk to anybody. 307 00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,960 You can hold the TV if you want or not. 308 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:04,720 Some people will just like, you know, mostly sit on the side and watch and slowly get their 309 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,080 feet wet. 310 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,640 And other people want to jump into outreach right away. 311 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,340 But we have the three day rule. 312 00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:18,560 So if you're looking for something to get into, then Anonymous for the Voiceless is 313 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,960 definitely I would say the best entry point. 314 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:26,040 And then from there, you'll meet the wider community and people who are involved in organizing 315 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:27,160 all sorts of other things. 316 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:33,200 And so you'll find something that fits your personality and something that you're good 317 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,960 at. 318 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,880 Yeah, that's what I would say. 319 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,080 I agree. 320 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:48,440 And one obstacle that people name when we talk about volunteering or taking action is 321 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,200 I don't have the time. 322 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,960 So how much time do you invest on your activism work? 323 00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:06,080 And how do you manage, create a balance between your personal life, work life and your volunteering 324 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,920 work? 325 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,960 It's sometimes a little bit challenging. 326 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:19,800 As one of the organizers of the chapter here in Montreal, I have to be present, you know, 327 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:25,720 pretty much every single time from the start or from before the beginning until after the 328 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,200 end of the event to clean everything up. 329 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:37,720 And I'd say I put maybe six or seven hours per week into it every Saturday or Sunday 330 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,000 usually. 331 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,200 And my job is extremely busy. 332 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,240 Like I'm an accountant at a big public company. 333 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:53,660 And so I work a lot and I'm able to make it work because I think it's important. 334 00:23:53,660 --> 00:24:00,760 And so I feel I do my part by facilitating these events for volunteers to come to. 335 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,760 And I could, you know, sometimes I have more capacity to do something else. 336 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,880 And so I'll go volunteer at someone else's event, but kind of at a bare minimum, I put 337 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:13,080 my six or seven hours a week into Anonymous for the Voiceless to facilitate those events. 338 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,040 And I have all the equipment. 339 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:16,120 I'm the person with the car. 340 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:20,920 And so I bring all the equipment to and from. 341 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,600 And if you join Anonymous for the Voiceless, for example, it's not like you have to come 342 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,920 to every single event. 343 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,220 You can choose which ones to come to. 344 00:24:30,220 --> 00:24:35,200 You can show up halfway through for the last hour, for the first half or whatever. 345 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,740 So it's very flexible. 346 00:24:36,740 --> 00:24:44,200 So if time management is an issue or you're too busy, then there's absolutely no downside 347 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:50,640 to joining because you only have the option to come when you're available. 348 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:55,320 For me, giving is something a little bit selfish. 349 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:56,320 Let me explain. 350 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:06,600 I get so much from giving money, giving time, giving resources, advice to people, you know, 351 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:12,280 brings me so much meaning, so much pleasure, joy, happiness in my life. 352 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:19,640 So in your case, what does activism work in animal rights bring you? 353 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,600 That's an interesting point that you brought up. 354 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:28,160 I've thought about that before as well, because I do get the, I don't know if I'd call it 355 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:35,160 satisfaction, but like maybe alleviation of some guilt about not doing anything about 356 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:36,440 it. 357 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,720 So at the end of the day, when you really boil it down, I guess it is kind of like a 358 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:41,720 selfish reason. 359 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:47,480 And, you know, I can philosophize about that's all I want, but at the end of the day, regardless 360 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,040 of the reason I'm doing it, I think it's good work. 361 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,960 And the animals that don't care what my reasoning is at the end of the day, whether or not I 362 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,240 get satisfaction from it. 363 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:06,200 So I'd say that, yeah, it's because I really believe it's extremely important work. 364 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:12,560 Like there's just an unimaginable amount of suffering, like the scale, I think even like 365 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:13,880 it catches me off guard sometimes. 366 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,320 Like, sometimes I'll forget just the scale of it, like the amount of suffering that's 367 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:24,480 happening this very instance to, you know, tens of billions of animals just all the time, 368 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,080 every second of every day of every year. 369 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:43,080 So yeah, I think I get to satisfy the need that I have to do something about it, about 370 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,360 something that is such a huge injustice. 371 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:51,640 And you mentioned earlier, racism and other forms of abuse. 372 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:59,880 So many scholars, historians, anthropologists, sociologists have argued that racism and other 373 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:08,520 forms of abuse and war and violence between humans came from our exploitation of animals, 374 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:14,820 that this was the beginning, that what we did to animals and what we are doing to animals 375 00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:20,980 is just the first step to then doing it to follow human beings. 376 00:27:20,980 --> 00:27:26,600 So yeah, it's violence against animals, but also violence against humans. 377 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,240 That's why I love the saying animal liberation is human liberation. 378 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,200 Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely true. 379 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:41,160 And I will often end my conversations, like after I've had a good conversation with somebody 380 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,680 and I know they're interested, then I'll end it with kind of the exact point that you're 381 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,080 making. 382 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:52,200 Like I'll ask them to imagine a world where children aren't taught to discriminate against 383 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:57,560 animals and they aren't taught to accept and be done to the violence that we cause towards 384 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:58,560 animals. 385 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:04,520 How much better do you think humans would treat each other if they didn't learn to first 386 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,920 condone or be complacent with violence towards animals? 387 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,420 So let's talk about those conversations you had with people. 388 00:28:12,420 --> 00:28:20,280 I'm sure you have plenty of stories of, you mentioned confronting people and how sometimes 389 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,600 they're upset and such. 390 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:31,680 So can you share with us some stories of conversations with people, not just the negative ones, but 391 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,240 also the good ones, the great impact you've made? 392 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,160 I would love to hear about that. 393 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,280 For sure. 394 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,960 Some of the more ridiculous conversations I have seem to revolve around a lot of people 395 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,720 thinking that plants feel pain, for example. 396 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:57,180 And until I started doing outreach, it never crossed my mind that anyone would ever, much 397 00:28:57,180 --> 00:29:01,760 less like a grown adult, would actually think that plants feel pain. 398 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,920 There's so many reasons why that's just not the case. 399 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:14,540 But on top of that, it's like, even if they did feel pain, well, a vegan diet or lifestyle 400 00:29:14,540 --> 00:29:20,480 causes so much less plant life to be ended. 401 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,440 Just the sheer number of crops that we have to grow and feed to animals. 402 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,400 Wait, are you saying this is like a common response? 403 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,560 Yeah, I think it's an epidemic. 404 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:30,560 Really? 405 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:31,560 Yeah. 406 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:37,360 It's crazy the number of people who think, grown adults who really believe to their core 407 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,000 that plants are sentient and feel pain. 408 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:46,880 And so 99% of my conversations are pretty rational. 409 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:52,520 Even if someone starts with that point, I'll point out that most crops are grown to feed 410 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:53,520 animals. 411 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:54,520 So, okay, fine. 412 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,040 Even if they still believe that plants feel pain, we can agree that less plants are going 413 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,280 to die because of that. 414 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,960 But some people are just so irrational and they'll stick to it and they won't listen 415 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,560 to anything I'm saying. 416 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:08,600 And so then at that point, they're just so far gone. 417 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:09,600 They're kind of lost. 418 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:19,360 And so I'll focus my energy on trying to get them to admit to something totally insane 419 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,600 that hopefully later on they'll reflect on. 420 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:28,840 And so someone is so convinced that their houseplants are sentient and feel pain. 421 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:34,840 And so I'll get them to admit eventually that, okay, I guess there's no difference. 422 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:41,560 There's no ethical difference between me chopping my houseplants in half and chopping my cats 423 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,000 in half. 424 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,980 And they'll fully admit it. 425 00:30:44,980 --> 00:30:48,880 And then at that point, I'm like, okay, well, it's nice talking to you and then off they 426 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:49,880 go. 427 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,720 So there's no value added in continuing the conversation after that point. 428 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:59,960 And I just hope that they will reflect on how insane they sounded and what they said 429 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:01,280 was. 430 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:11,320 So I think that sums up the crazy conversations that I have. 431 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:18,440 In terms of good conversations, there are some people that we've spoken to who aren't 432 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,240 vegan at the time, of course, but the conversation goes very well. 433 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:27,720 And they're rational and they're making both good points on both sides. 434 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:34,320 And we eventually come to a good conclusion that, okay, we don't need to be abusing animals. 435 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,120 And they're going to think about it and research how to go on a vegan diet. 436 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,180 And then they actually stick to the word and we know because a few months later, or even 437 00:31:43,180 --> 00:31:48,360 maybe up to a year later, they'll come back to us saying that they went vegan. 438 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,720 They'll just kind of have it upon some across us and come talk to us and say, hey, because 439 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,920 I spoke to you a few months ago or last year, I thought about that and I actually became 440 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,320 vegan and I've been vegan now for months or whatever. 441 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,000 And then sometimes somebody will even come back as a volunteer. 442 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:12,240 And so those moments are always nice because first it's nice that they do that and we get 443 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,240 another volunteer. 444 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:20,640 But more so it's nice that it's kind of proof that what we're doing is having at least some 445 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:27,000 impact, like very tangible proof that what we're doing made a difference. 446 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,180 That is heartwarming to hear. 447 00:32:30,180 --> 00:32:36,560 But I have a follow up question, which is a bit of a tough question. 448 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:43,200 It is wanting to convince people and for them to become vegan and make that transition. 449 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:50,020 But the problem I don't see many people address is how many vegans and vegetarians decide 450 00:32:50,020 --> 00:32:59,760 to return back to their old ways, old diet, old lifestyle and forget about veganism and 451 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,300 being vegetarian even. 452 00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:08,840 So have you thought about this problem and do you have maybe solutions? 453 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:18,280 In terms of solutions, I'm not sure what the solution would be other than somehow better 454 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,740 education around how to be vegan. 455 00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:23,680 I know that what you're saying is true. 456 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,040 I don't know what the exact statistics are about how many people go back, but I know 457 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,680 for sure obviously it does happen. 458 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:38,040 I know somebody who did it, but I think that if people were better educated on nutrition, 459 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,360 then it would be less likely to happen because I'm speculating that one of the reasons that 460 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,880 they do it is probably because they're feeling malnourished or something because they didn't 461 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:53,440 properly adopt a vegan diet and maybe they were eating meat before and they just got 462 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,400 rid of the meat, dairy and eggs, but didn't substitute it with anything. 463 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,520 And so obviously they're going to be missing a lot of nutrients. 464 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:05,920 But when you just put some basic time and effort into researching what you need from 465 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,840 a nutritional standpoint, it's very easy to get what you need at any grocery store to 466 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:17,080 get easy, cheap plant-based food. 467 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,920 And it's also easy and cheap to just get, like if you're a little bit unsure about certain 468 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:27,080 things, just buy a multivitamin, which will kind of bridge a lot of gaps that you have 469 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:28,080 with multivitamin. 470 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:36,360 It's perfectly healthy and lots of people who aren't vegan have multivitamins. 471 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:42,320 But for some reason, when you introduce the topic of multivitamins in a vegan context, 472 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:49,320 people will use that, oh, you need to supplement because all that kind of stuff. 473 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,320 But at the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with the multivitamin. 474 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,320 You're just getting extra nutrients. 475 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,840 Yeah, to answer your question, I think the solution is just better education. 476 00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,040 I agree with that. 477 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:05,040 I'm still thinking about what you said about plants having feelings and how it's a common 478 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,040 response. 479 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:11,600 I mean, you made me lose my faith in humanity. 480 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:20,040 People who believe that plants have feelings, maybe they need guidance in order to plan 481 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,040 their diet. 482 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:29,480 Yeah, and I think it's also a blame we should put on some vegans who hesitate to talk about 483 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:39,800 supplements or they want to claim that veganism is this fountain of youth that of course you 484 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,800 don't need B12 supplements. 485 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:47,160 Of course you don't need multivitamins, but actually you do. 486 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,160 Yeah, exactly. 487 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,960 Yeah, especially B12. 488 00:35:51,960 --> 00:36:00,840 I know there are some other sources of it, but I don't know how you get maybe enough 489 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,760 of it from non-multivitamin sources. 490 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:10,320 But luckily we live in a developed world and everyone has easy access to cheap multivitamins. 491 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,360 And so it's very easy. 492 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:19,080 And at the end of the day, if it comes to torturing a sentient animal or taking a multivitamin, 493 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,040 what's the rational person going to do? 494 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,840 Why would you choose torturing an animal over just taking a perfectly healthy multivitamin? 495 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,760 There's no point in denying the realities of nutrition, but at the end of the day, it 496 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:38,360 is perfectly possible to be completely healthy on the vegan diet. 497 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,800 And we're busy people. 498 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,960 You were talking about how your work takes a big place in your life. 499 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,720 I don't want to be anxious about what I'm eating. 500 00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:49,080 I want to cover my bases. 501 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,840 So multivitamin is a great solution for that. 502 00:36:53,840 --> 00:37:00,440 And to add to the rationale behind leaving the vegan lifestyle, I think that another 503 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:06,520 good reason is some people start for health reasons. 504 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,800 They become vegan for health reasons and they don't really care about animals. 505 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:16,520 And that's something else I like about anonymous for the voices because you're making the 506 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:22,720 ethical arguments for being vegan, not the health arguments, not even the environmental 507 00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:24,200 argument. 508 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:32,240 Because I think that if you become vegan for the environment or for health reasons, I think 509 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:40,480 chances are you will stop being vegan after a while because it will be too difficult on 510 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:46,320 your social life, on your diet and so on in terms of organizing your diet. 511 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,640 So yeah, do you agree with me? 512 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,600 100%. 513 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:57,260 If you don't have that ethical reason to keep you focused on it, you're much more likely 514 00:37:57,260 --> 00:38:04,280 to diverge and maybe fall back onto a meat-based diet because it's maybe just because of the 515 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,240 world we live in, maybe a little bit easier. 516 00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:12,600 You have to think a little bit less about it, especially if you're going out to restaurants. 517 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:18,560 Because it's also like a well-balanced meat-based diet is also perfectly healthy. 518 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,160 That's just the reality of it. 519 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:25,560 And so somebody who is health-focused isn't going to have a problem being healthy necessarily 520 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:33,120 on a meat-based diet if you just purposely choose healthy food. 521 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:38,360 So without that moral reasoning behind it, for sure people are going to be much more 522 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,440 likely to go back to it. 523 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,640 Yeah, I mean, my family eats a Mediterranean diet. 524 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,960 I'm not going to argue with them that veganism is healthier. 525 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,160 I mean, it doesn't make sense. 526 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:58,200 I don't have the strong position here. 527 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:07,120 So you spoke about a future in which veganism is more prevalent. 528 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,720 And I always wonder, what's the end goal? 529 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:21,480 You know, at what point do we say, okay, we have fulfilled animal liberation? 530 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,360 Is it major changes in the law? 531 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,840 Do we make eating meat illegal? 532 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:33,500 I try to picture that I'm someone who likes to have a clear idea of where we're going 533 00:39:33,500 --> 00:39:35,740 with this, with our actions. 534 00:39:35,740 --> 00:39:42,640 And I understand that maybe we won't get there before a century. 535 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,360 But I was wondering if you had envisioned that future. 536 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,440 Yeah, that's a good question. 537 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:57,160 And I think my answer would be when the laws change, when animal products, at least in 538 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:04,280 the developed world, become illegal, the same way that other forms of animal exploitation 539 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:09,600 and torture are illegal, like dog fighting. 540 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:16,680 And when the majority of people agree that, yeah, animal cruelty is wrong and taste pleasure 541 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:21,740 is not a justification for supporting animal abuse. 542 00:40:21,740 --> 00:40:23,680 So I agree with you. 543 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,560 It's probably like a century away from that point. 544 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:33,800 Although it might get accelerated just because of climate crisis reasons, like meat might 545 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,200 become more heavily taxed. 546 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:41,880 And if we get into super extreme situations, maybe become illegal. 547 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:48,360 But regardless of the reasons that it happens, I will be happy that it does happen. 548 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:55,200 And there's, I don't know if you call it a phenomenon, but something that happens when 549 00:40:55,200 --> 00:41:02,600 like if somebody is forced to go vegan for some reason, like let's say it becomes illegal 550 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,320 because of climate issues. 551 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,840 When they're no longer contributing to that animal cruelty, they're more likely to reflect 552 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:17,240 on it in a more honest way and look back on it and say, okay, animal exploitation for 553 00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:19,760 that, it was obviously totally wrong. 554 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,480 Now that they're not implicated in it anymore, they're not so defensive about it. 555 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,080 And so they'll retroactively look back and agree that it's wrong. 556 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:32,440 And so even if it becomes illegal for reasons other than ethical, I think it would still 557 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:40,520 facilitate a mental shift in most of, or a lot of people at least, into adopting that 558 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:45,040 mindset that we shouldn't be exploiting animals. 559 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:52,520 And for it to be sustainable, I think that people need to adopt that mindset that it 560 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:53,520 is wrong. 561 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,600 Otherwise, let's say we get through the climate crisis and then the government makes it illegal 562 00:41:58,600 --> 00:41:59,600 again. 563 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:08,080 And we're right back to where it was unless people's, what do I call it? 564 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,720 Their perception of it has changed. 565 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:14,480 So we need to win the war of ideas. 566 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:15,480 Yeah. 567 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:22,840 At the end of the day, for long-term sustainable results, I think that's the case. 568 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,720 I get the sense that you're optimistic about the future. 569 00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:28,160 Am I right? 570 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,920 Yes. 571 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:38,160 Maybe not in my lifetime, but I'll do my part to push it forward while I'm here. 572 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:47,600 But I don't expect to see a total overhaul or a vegan world necessarily before I go. 573 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:53,240 But in the long term, in the long term for humanity, I am optimistic about it. 574 00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:55,160 Amazing. 575 00:42:55,160 --> 00:43:03,400 So Galen, I think we covered most of what I wanted to talk about. 576 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:09,160 Did you want to add something before we end this conversation? 577 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:16,600 I think the only thing I would add is to touch again on your point about people on the fence 578 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,480 about volunteering. 579 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:25,800 I really encourage people to start volunteering because if you're against animal cruelty and 580 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,920 you want to see a world that is kinder towards animals, the only way that that's going to 581 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:35,520 happen is if people like yourselves stand up and do something about it. 582 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:36,520 Yeah. 583 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,360 I mean, that's just being realistic. 584 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,920 It's not even optimistic, pessimistic. 585 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,560 It's just being realistic. 586 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,160 You need to do something about it. 587 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:51,960 Whatever your feelings are, if we want to see change, we need to do something to make 588 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:52,960 it happen. 589 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:53,960 Exactly. 590 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:54,960 Exactly. 591 00:43:54,960 --> 00:44:02,200 People are so complacent and brainwashed into thinking that animal exploitation is totally 592 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,500 normal and there's nothing wrong with what we do to animals. 593 00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:07,200 So that's not going to change on its own. 594 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,680 It's going to take people to stand up and expose it. 595 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:11,680 Amazing. 596 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,080 That's a great message to end this conversation. 597 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:21,040 So once again, thank you so much for having been a guest on this podcast and thank you 598 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:22,700 for your great work. 599 00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:24,160 This was a pleasure, Galen. 600 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:25,800 Pleasure's on mine. 601 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:26,960 Thank you, Ryan. 602 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:28,960 Thank you everyone for listening. 603 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:34,120 I hope that Galen gave you a good idea of what it's like to volunteer for Anonymous 604 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,960 for the Voiceless. 605 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:41,840 If you feel like getting a mask and helping out, I invite you to check the link below 606 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:47,440 and see if there is any Anonymous for the Voiceless chapter in your area. 607 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:53,440 And if there is no group in your city or town, what if you're a started one? 608 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:54,720 Don't miss next week's episode. 609 00:44:54,720 --> 00:45:00,440 It's a very special episode because you know the horrendous footage of animals being 610 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,120 tortured that Anonymous uses in their Cube of Truth. 611 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:11,020 Well, we will be investigating how this footage is produced with Natalie, an activist who 612 00:45:11,020 --> 00:45:18,560 broke in a pig farm to capture some of the worst images of animal exploitation out there. 613 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:23,320 Subscribe now and don't miss out on her incredible story. 614 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:28,120 And as always, please tell your family and friends about the show and why you love it 615 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:29,680 so much. 616 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:36,320 Finally, you can always follow me on Instagram at veganreportpodcast. 617 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,100 Thank you again for listening. 618 00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:42,800 Take care and see you soon.