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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.

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If you are an ethical vegan and you care to do more to end animal abuse, but you're not

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sure what to do, then this podcast is for you.

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Every week, discover passionate, thought-provoking and inspiring vegan leaders from all walks

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of life who will inspire you to take action and help you find your voice, your own special

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contribution to the animal rights movement.

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Today, we are going to talk about animal rights and political activism.

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And I have with me a very special guest whose commitment I immensely respect, Liz White,

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the leader of the Animal Protection Party of Canada.

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Liz began her career as a registered nurse.

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She has spent over 30 years as a community activist and has worked on issues, including

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advocating for the disadvantaged, animal protection and aboriginal land settlements.

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In 1987, Liz began working with the Toronto Humane Society, an experience that redefined

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her activism.

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She is a founding member of Animal Alliance of Canada and has remained with the organization

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for over 25 years.

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In 2005, Liz became the leader of the Animal Protection Party of Canada.

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Liz, welcome to the podcast.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Thank you for having me.

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Let me start by saying this.

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I always thought that you cannot be an environmentalist who supports the animal industry.

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If you say you care for the environment, my question for you is, are you vegan?

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Well, I'm realizing more and more that this logic applies to other areas of society.

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For example, in episode 9 of the show, I had a great conversation on veganism and Catholicism,

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and that made me realize that it would be hard for me to take seriously a religious

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leader who ignores one of the most reprehensible moral and ethical abuse of our time.

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Which brings us to politics.

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If you care about our democratic institutions, then you should not be supporting an industry

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that spends millions and millions of dollars on a global operation to undermine our democratic

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process.

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And I'm thinking about the lobbying campaigns through which this industry captures our representatives

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to implement unconstitutional policies like the ag-gag laws, or to make sure the government

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keeps subsidizing them with our money, protecting them against the winds of the market.

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Or I'm thinking also about this industry and how it weaponized forces like the FBI in the

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US against vegan activists.

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William the founder of Animal Partisan told us about this in episode 5 of the show, or

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captured our public health institutions to make us believe that dairy and meat is required

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for our good health.

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In episode 4, Catherine tells us about how Vietnam has fallen to this industry's lies

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on health through international development policies.

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And the list goes on and on and on.

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So my first question for you, Liz, is, is this an accurate depiction of what is happening

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on the political front?

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Did I miss something?

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No, I don't really think you've missed anything.

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Excuse me.

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When you look at the whole situation from a moral, ethical, and political perspective,

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and know what we're facing with global warming, it is absolutely true that unless we deal

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with animal agriculture as part of the solution to global warming, we will never reach our

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targets because animal agriculture contributes to at least a quarter of the emissions into

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the air that causes all the wildfires and flooding and all that sort of stuff.

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So it's really important that we get governments to look at it, if not from the animal welfare

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point of view, which I think they should do, but certainly from an environmental point

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of view and for bringing the planet back to a livable place for people who are coming

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after us.

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And I would argue, importantly, for the animals that are going to come after us that are going

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to be equally impacted by what we're doing to the planet.

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With regard to the industry, it's got a very heavy lobby at the federal level and at the

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provincial levels all across Canada, and as a result have acquired substantial subsidies

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to allow them to market their products more widely.

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And because of the demand, we have systems that inherently are cruel to the beings that

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we ultimately, some people ultimately put on the plate.

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So it's a big Titanic to turn around.

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It's a very, very big ship because people are pretty bent in their ways to actually

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eat meat and leather and all that sort of stuff.

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So I think we have a big job, but until we actually deliver the political part of it,

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because that's where the politicians make the decision, we're not going to see the change

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that we need.

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When I hear words like subsidy, I have a feeling of boredom and I'm thinking, oh, this is something

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about economics.

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I don't really get it.

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But can you explain why it's important to understand what's happening on that front?

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The most common thing that people say to me when I talk about the political party is they

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hate politics.

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They don't like politicians.

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They don't trust them.

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They don't want to have anything to do with them.

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They're going to turn their back on democracy and walk away.

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And I say to them, that is a huge mistake because like it or not, if we really want

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things to change for animals in Canada, we have to do the politics.

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And it's the politicians.

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They're the gatekeepers of all the legislation.

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They decide who lives, who dies, when they die, in what manner, is it cruel, how they're

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sold, what's done with them.

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All of that is political.

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And until we address that, there is no way that we are going to change the landscape

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with regard to how we treat animals, particularly food animals, which of course accounts for

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the largest number.

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Well let's take maybe a few step backs before getting into the heart of this issue.

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I'm curious about your own journey.

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So when and why did you decide to become vegan?

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And most importantly, why did you decide to take the extra step by becoming an activist?

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I went, well, at the end of my nursing part, a friend of mine, Clay Ruby, he's a criminal

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lawyer, was helping the Toronto Humane Society and asked if I would go down and do some public

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relations stuff with.

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I did and was there for just a few years.

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But during that time, I was vegetarian and very proud of it.

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And Gary Francione came to the Toronto Humane Society to do some work.

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He's an activist in the United States and a lawyer.

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And he said, you should be ashamed of yourself.

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You do not know what you're talking about.

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Unless you become totally vegan, you are not accountable to the animals that you claim

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to represent.

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And so that was the turning point for me.

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So I became vegan, I think in 88, maybe 89.

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I can't remember now.

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It's a long time ago.

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But that was a turning point for me.

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And I realized that if we didn't do something about it in a greater sense than just exposing

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all of the cruelty, which is important to do, but to try and find a real solution for

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it, can we get legislation that changes certain things?

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Can we?

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But what is it that we can do to move the yardstick along to help people consider becoming

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vegetarian and vegan?

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And so that was the journey.

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So my goal with this podcast is to convince vegans to do more.

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What would you say to those vegans who want to do more but don't know where to start?

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Well, I guess I would say you start in your own neighborhood.

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You have municipal politicians, provincial politicians, or federal politicians.

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And those are people who are game changers in terms of legislation.

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So I would recommend that people set up a meeting with their MP, MPP, and their local

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person, and begin to explore the solution to some of these issues to see if the person

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is at all open to it.

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And it's hard to do.

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I understand that.

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It's really intimidating to meet a politician and to be prepared to talk to that politician

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and learn to get the type of information that that politician wants and needs.

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You know, without the cosmetic, when we won the cosmetic testing, that of course took

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a very, very long time, but we finally found a politician, Yves Duclos, who was the minister

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at the time.

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And he helped tremendously to push that legislation over the finish line.

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Now it's kind of small in many ways because not many animals are tested in Canada, but

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the import ban into Canada has much greater impact.

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And I think the second thing I would recommend is that you have to understand that this is

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an incremental change.

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You're not going to find a politician who will snap his or her fingers and there's no

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more animal agriculture.

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So my second thing is to do a bit of research.

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Find out the areas where it's most likely to change.

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For example, we have bird flu.

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Bird flu can become a pandemic virus and begin to skip from animals to people.

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I think we have very credible information on that.

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And I think approaching the politicians about the intensification of raising chickens, both

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as meat birds and as egg layers, that we can actually begin to make change there.

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Because if nothing else, we can appeal to the threat to humanity as opposed to threat

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to the birds.

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But if we can move it in a direction so that it protects the birds, that is, I think, a

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win in my regard anyway.

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Yeah.

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Let's be smart about it.

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And I want to plug an organization called, I think, Animal Justice Academy.

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And I got in contact with them this summer and they helped me prepare to talk with my

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own MP.

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And they were very helpful.

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They addressed all of my fears.

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And I had a great meeting with my MP.

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It went great.

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So yeah, maybe get in contact with Animal Justice Academy.

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What people don't realize is that most politicians are like the rest of us.

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They just hold a different type of power.

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Most of them want to please and help their constituents.

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Depends on the magnitude of what you're asking.

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But for example, in Montreal, before the horse carriages were banned, working at the local

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level to make that happen ultimately saved the lives of many horses that were used in

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that industry.

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So it's really important to fix something that you can win.

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And it may take a long time.

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I started working on the cosmetic issue in 1988.

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So it took that length of time to get it over the finish line and done.

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But we got it done.

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And we'll get other things done.

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So you have to be patient, persistent, chipper, polite, and don't ask for too much so that

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you can build up a relationship with the politicians and make things happen.

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Wow, where do you find that commitment?

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How do you find that mental fortitude of continuing to work year after year, decade after decade?

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I guess I'm not sure.

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I just am kind of driven in that regard.

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It really makes me very angry to see the kinds of activities that are done to animals, some

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of it entirely unnecessary and achievable to turn around.

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For example, in Ontario, we have train and trial compounds where they put 50 dogs or

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more onto a coyote and chase the coyote and sometimes the animals torn apart.

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We have Parks Canada going in Sydney Island in BC going to shoot all the deer on the island

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by helicopter and with dogs on the ground.

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These are issues that are imminently solvable.

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And so when you see that kind of thing, incomplete inaction on the part of the government or

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actually denial of what's actually going on, it just makes me really angry.

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And so I just have to try and work on it to solve it.

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I share that anger.

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It's just something you cannot ignore.

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You have to do something about it.

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It doesn't go away.

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So I understand that mindset.

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What I would say to people though is use your anger and your depression and your fear and

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all the things you experience when you see what happens to animals, turn it into a positive

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thing.

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You don't find something that you can do about it and take the work and do it step by step,

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regardless of how long it takes.

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And don't get discouraged.

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Ultimately, you're going to find a politician who says, yeah, this is extraordinarily awful

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and I'm going to do something about it.

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And then you can actually work with that person to make it happen.

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And so we just need to take that energy, which can be very negative and make it a positive

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energy for change.

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I love that advice.

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So you are the leader of the Animal Protection Party of Canada.

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And I want to know how did this initiative start?

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How did we understand that we need an animal protection party?

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And why is it important to have a political party devoted to the cause of animal rights?

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Well, it started because way back about 20 years in Canada, you could not start a small

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party many years ago.

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You required 50 candidates to be able to run.

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And you had to pay a thousand dollars per candidate to allow them to run.

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So the barrier was so high that most small parties couldn't make that happen.

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And then there became an issue with the Communist Party of Canada.

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They went all, they fought the issue all the way to the Supreme Court.

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The Supreme Court ruled that it was a barrier, in fact, to democracy and to electoral politics.

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And so the act was changed to allow one candidate and a number of people who said that they

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belonged to the party to become a party.

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So we went to our members and asked if they wanted to do that.

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They thankfully said yes.

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And so we were able to meet the threshold and start the party.

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But in my mind, the goal of a political party is to get into power.

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And I don't see the animal party of Canada getting into power.

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So what is its usefulness?

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But first of all, in countries where they have proportional representation, they have

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elected animal rights people, particularly in the Netherlands, with the Party for the

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Animals.

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They've elected well over 60 individuals to the European Union, to the parliament, and

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all the way down to the water boards.

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And so they have... so then I'm asked, okay, so the assembly's got 300 people and you have

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five animal rights people elected to the assembly.

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How can you possibly make change?

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And what we're seeing in the Netherlands is you can make a lot of change.

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I mean, the government is considering phasing out animal agriculture in many respects.

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And they're doing many, many different things with regard to research animals and a whole

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number of things that never happened before.

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And so you've got to ask yourself, does the presence of five people in the legislature

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make a difference?

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And the answer is quite clearly yes.

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Now in Canada, you're absolutely right.

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Under the current system, we will not probably get elected.

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There are just too many barriers to it to actually achieve that.

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It took the Green Party 30 years to get somebody elected, and they've only been able to get

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a few seats elected.

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So our fight is to get proportional representation.

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And in fact, on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, there's a superior Supreme Court challenge

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on fair voting.

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We've supported that initiative extensively and will attend it.

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So the way you make change isn't always just talking about animals.

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It's talking about process.

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It's talking about political action and political power and how you use it.

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Beyond that, we are there during elections when nobody else is talking about animal agriculture

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or any other animal issue for that matter.

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And so I think we make a difference in terms of getting people thinking.

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At the federal level, we have a number of people who are running.

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We've had up to almost 20 candidates, and those candidates are out there talking the

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line about making a country a compassionate country.

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And that's why we talk about Animal Protection Party as a compassionate political entity.

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And just out of curiosity, if we had a proportionate system of democracy, how many candidates we

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would be able to elect?

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It would depend on how many people we got running.

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It would depend on the riding and the possibility in that riding.

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Depend on a whole bunch of different things that we, hurdles that we would have to look

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at and see if we could get over.

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But I do think that the way the votes are counted, it means that if we work really hard

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and get more votes than we normally do, that we have a very great possibility of actually

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having possibly one person, possibly two people.

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And then we would be in the situation like the Animal Party for the Animals, where you

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can actually begin to mold the kind of debate that takes place in parliament.

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Okay.

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It's, you know, one of my political heartbreak is having supported the government of Justin

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Trudeau, the liberal government of Justin Trudeau.

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And one of the reasons I supported him in his first campaign to become prime minister

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was because he promised a proportionate system of election.

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And then of course, he just break his promise.

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And yeah, it's things like that that make people tired of politics, you know, their

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little betrayals of their representatives.

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Just in that point, I've been, I've been part of doing political work for a very, very long

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time.

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I was a city councillor, City of Toronto ran that campaign.

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I have to say, you know, we need to cut politicians a little slack.

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It's a very hard job.

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You can imagine the number of people coming to them saying what they want that politician

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to do.

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And most of the time, it's going to be difficult to do that.

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And so we need to set aside that kind of feeling and begin to figure out how to approach these

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people, what it is they're looking for and whether they can help.

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I do think it was a very big betrayal on the part of Prime Minister Trudeau to back down

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on the proportional representation.

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On the other hand, I would just say he's the one government, he's banned cosmetic testing

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and the import.

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He has going to amend the testing regulations for a much broader range of products.

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And he's going to end the transport of live horses to Japan if that piece of legislation

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goes through.

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So more than any other government actually in the last few years has actually brought

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in legislation that actually directly impacted animals.

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And so I find when we talk about that, most people say, ah, that was just one thing.

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That was easy.

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Yeah, not many animals.

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I think what we have to do is to give the government a lot of credit for doing something

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that clearly was not that easy to do and that we begin to build on that as opposed to dismissing

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it or as opposed to saying it wasn't good enough or it wasn't whatever.

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It isn't that we should betray our values and our morals.

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We shouldn't do that.

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But we need to understand that we have to work with these people.

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And if we can do it in a productive way, like our coalition did with Minister Yves Duclos,

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the government came away with a very positive experience.

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They were putting their toe in the water.

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Were they going to get something to bite it off or were they going to be able to flourish

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as a result?

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And it was a fantastic experience even for Minister Duclos.

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And so I think we can begin to change that dynamic with politicians by being supportive

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and helpful as opposed to angry and dismissive.

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I agree.

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I'll try to be more positive on my outlook.

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So you mentioned the Netherlands.

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Do you know how many countries out there have an animal rights party?

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And how is their fight going?

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I don't remember the exact number, but we, I think Australia, it's a lot of countries

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in Europe, Portugal, Spain, countries that you would say might be harder.

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Like Spain has a bullfight or that kind of thing.

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They think, maybe not.

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But these are people who have actually got elected in countries where there's proportional

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representation and they're doing some great work.

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I would recommend anybody go to the website, Party for the Animals.

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They run a group of all the parties, have representatives to this group of all the parties,

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animal rights parties.

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And they do some fantastic work, fantastic training.

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And I would say for anybody who's listening to this podcast, anywhere in Canada, if you

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want to become a candidate for a party that has a great platform, progressive in every

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sense of the word, call me, email me.

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And we do a little interview.

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We have a form to fill out and we evaluate people in that regard.

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So it would be great to have somebody.

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It's a hard go.

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Okay.

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I won't say otherwise.

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We don't have a lot of big support systems.

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We're not a big wealthy party.

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So you're kind of out there on your own in the riding and it's kind of intimidating,

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but I find that once people get into it, they actually enjoy it.

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I'm curious, apart from a passion for animal rights, what does it take to be a candidate

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for the Animal Protection Party of Canada?

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Well, you have to be vegan.

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There's no point in putting a candidate up who doesn't live the values of the party.

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So you have to be vegan.

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There's a number of other things.

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People who are rudely, very outspoken, we tend to shy away from because we want the

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politicians to have a good experience with the candidates that come to their meetings

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and who come to talk to them.

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But mostly the criteria is set out in Elections Canada.

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If we agree that you're a candidate, the basic thing that you have to do is you have to go

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and collect signatures of a hundred people within your riding that say, okay, I would

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like this person to run in my riding.

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And so that's really the only thing.

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Even that is really intimidating to people.

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But I would say to everybody who's considering this, it's really important not to talk,

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we talk to people who believe what we believe, but it's really important to talk to people

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who have a different opinion and to be able to exercise that in a controlled way so you

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can have a reasonable conversation.

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It's one thing to think that what you're saying is terrific and believable and all that sort

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of stuff.

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But I can tell you when you get up in front of an audience of 300 people who might not

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like what you're saying, it's really hard.

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But it's really good if you can do it in a way that is not threatening, not pointing

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fingers, but being inclusive in the discussion and having a respectful discussion.

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And I've had a number of all candidates meetings that have been really interesting because

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most of the people in the audience were hostile in one of the riders that I ran in.

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But at the end of the day, when the whole thing ended, people came up to me and thanked

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me for being there, for putting an alternative point of view across, for being able to listen

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to what people were saying and then in turn listening to what I was saying.

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It's like that saying, you make peace with your enemies, not with your friends.

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So yeah, it's very interesting.

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And I would bet that becoming a candidate would be such an educational experience in

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one's life.

377
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:29,040
It would bring a lot of growth in your personal and maybe even professional life.

378
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,360
Well, it's easy to talk to friends.

379
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:39,240
It's much less easy to talk to people who don't agree with us.

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And I would argue that at the end of the day, we advocate for animals.

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The end of the day, it isn't going to affect the money that we bring in, the work that

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we do, the pensions that we have.

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And so if somebody disagrees, we can just go home, go to bed and get up and do the same

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thing the next day.

385
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What we're advocating is a shutdown of people's livelihood and people tend to fight a lot

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harder to protect their livelihoods.

387
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So we need to reach out to those people who are troubled by what people are saying and

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00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:26,920
see if we can begin a dialogue about how to move from an intensive animal agriculture

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industry to a plant-based industry.

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And one that is environmentally friendly, because just because you go to plant-based

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doesn't mean you're environmentally friendly if you're running an intensive plant-based

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agricultural system.

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So we need to move in a number of different directions.

394
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:58,720
And I think what we're looking at is figuring out how many, what are the vegan, what does

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00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,040
the vegan industry look like?

396
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,800
What does the agricultural part of it look like?

397
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What does the processing part of it look like?

398
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Because we need to figure out what economic contribution that makes to Canada.

399
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:22,080
With that in mind, then we can go and talk to governments because they have an economic

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00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,140
interest in moving that forward.

401
00:31:25,140 --> 00:31:32,040
And I think that we could go and talk one-on-one farmer to farmer with people who are doing

402
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:39,240
vegan work to actually make change through the agriculture, the intensive animal agriculture.

403
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,240
It's a big move.

404
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,360
It's really hard to do.

405
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:48,640
But at the end of the day, I think we need to figure out how to move that along.

406
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:54,780
What's the division, the goal ahead?

407
00:31:54,780 --> 00:32:00,700
Have you ever thought of a future where we're successful in our cause?

408
00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:04,600
It's a question I have asked other activists.

409
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:10,040
Would you support a law banning completely animal exploitation and eating animals?

410
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:20,600
Or do you see a future where it's just illegal to even purchase bacon or something like that?

411
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,320
Do you ever think about a future like that?

412
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:25,320
Absolutely.

413
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:31,880
A colleague of mine is exploring the idea about what the planet would look like if we

414
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,680
let animals live.

415
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,920
He hasn't finished it, but he's looking at that.

416
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:47,360
I do think it's much better to do it slowly as opposed to having it imposed.

417
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:56,000
Because you need to bring all the communities along and get buy-in for why it's being done.

418
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:04,600
Otherwise, we did a campaign and ended the spring bear hunt in Ontario in 14 years.

419
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,520
It was a tumultuous time.

420
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,280
The hunters went crazy.

421
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,080
The outfitters went crazy.

422
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,360
And 14 years later, it was overturned.

423
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:21,040
My experience is the wind was great, but if it doesn't last 14 years, the bears didn't

424
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,120
get killed in the spring, but now they do again.

425
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:30,360
It's really important to figure out how to get buy-in from the whole community.

426
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:36,880
I think it's better to go slow and to bring people along, not to threaten them, but to

427
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:42,360
make them inclusive in the whole situation in order to allow the changes that can be

428
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,160
made to stick.

429
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:53,440
Bear hunting is one of those things that is just barbaric.

430
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,880
I was visiting my parents who live in the north.

431
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:08,120
Here I was hiking in a national park and then I started talking with one of the employees.

432
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:13,920
He told me about bear hunting and how there was a market of even Americans going every

433
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,440
season to Canada in order to hunt bears.

434
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:25,400
So let's get talking about the fights of your party and how to support those fights,

435
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,240
even if it's not as a candidate.

436
00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:29,880
And let's start with bear hunting.

437
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,320
What is that?

438
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,680
Why is it happening and how can we stop it?

439
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:40,520
Well, bears are considered trophy animals.

440
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:51,280
And the provinces all across Canada have marketed it to Americans to come up for a trophy hunt.

441
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:58,000
And it's also unlike any other hunt, is done in the both both in the spring and in the

442
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:06,280
fall, mother and cubs come out of their den in March and it starts mid-May.

443
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,040
The cubs are tiny.

444
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,720
She usually goes to the bait site alone, puts the cubs up the tree.

445
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:18,960
Hunters say that they know that that's a female bear and won't shoot that animal.

446
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,260
But in fact, many females are killed.

447
00:35:22,260 --> 00:35:27,640
Many females with dependent cubs and rescue groups all across the country are faced with

448
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:33,000
the notion of what do we do with these orphan bears, bear cubs?

449
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,480
Most of them just die because they can't defend themselves and they don't know what to eat.

450
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:46,120
So and in the fall, of course, that's when the bears are most active because they have

451
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,960
to put on a huge amount of weight in order to go into hibernation because they lose a

452
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,700
huge amount of weight when they come out in the spring when there isn't much food.

453
00:35:56,700 --> 00:35:59,200
So they bulk up in the fall.

454
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:05,200
And that's when they're hunted for two months, two and a half months.

455
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:12,240
So in Ontario, because we had the spring bear hunt ended, they extended the fall hunt into

456
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:13,440
August.

457
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,600
So mid-August to I think the end of November.

458
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,280
It depends on where you're hunting.

459
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:25,880
But these animals are now being hunted for a much longer period of time than they were

460
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,000
previously.

461
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,000
So it's very, very troubling.

462
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,640
In fact, in B.C., the government there is looking at possibly lifting the ban on grizzly

463
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:41,520
hunting, even though grizzly bears are at risk animals.

464
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:50,800
And so at the end of the day, we won a bunch of stuff, but it didn't last.

465
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:57,560
So that's why we need to have the parties because that's where the legislation happens.

466
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,320
Unfortunately, for bear hunting, it's a provincial matter.

467
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,520
So it would have to be at the provincial level.

468
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:10,360
That's where our other organization, Animal Alliance, will run campaigns parallel to the

469
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:16,400
election to see if we can stop some of these activities.

470
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,600
And I mentioned about getting involved without being a candidate.

471
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,920
What form does it take?

472
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,280
You can become a donor for the party.

473
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,960
The maximum you can give is $1,700 this year.

474
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,480
This goes up $25 each year.

475
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,000
Most people don't have that kind of money.

476
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,800
So a monthly donation of $10 would be wonderful.

477
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,960
And then if the person in the riding that they're looking in wants to actually engage

478
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,320
in an issue, just call.

479
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,440
Call me and I will actually walk you through the process and how to do it, show you how

480
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:56,440
to do.

481
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:02,480
You know, much of it is related to I do tons of ATIP requests and freedom of information

482
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:09,040
requests because what politicians sometimes tell you isn't exactly what happens.

483
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,080
So it's good to go armed with actual material.

484
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:18,400
At the federal level, you can do ATIP requests and you don't have to pay for them.

485
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,760
It's all free except for a $5 deposit.

486
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,880
At the provincial level, that's not the case.

487
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,040
So you might have to put out of pocket.

488
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,840
However, some help in that regard.

489
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,560
We can help you with that too.

490
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,000
Amazing and giving is a simple way.

491
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:44,640
You know, giving money is a simple way to make an impact and your party is making an

492
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:45,640
impact.

493
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:51,560
So let's talk about a victory of yours, which is the ban on cosmetic testing.

494
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,080
You said it started in the 80s.

495
00:38:55,080 --> 00:39:00,540
How did it start and how did it come to a victory?

496
00:39:00,540 --> 00:39:06,960
And by the way, congratulations and thank you for this good work.

497
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:15,720
It started because I knew some people in the New Democratic Party in Ontario and talked

498
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:17,800
to one of the persons there.

499
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:24,920
They were in opposition and he agreed to put bring forward a private members bill.

500
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:32,440
Then in 1990, this is a long time ago, Bob Ray and the NDP actually took power in Ontario

501
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:40,320
for the first time ever and Elmer Buchanan, who was Ray's Minister of Agriculture, we

502
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:41,320
met with him.

503
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:42,520
He was wonderful.

504
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,280
He decided that he was going to move and ban cosmetic testing and that would have been just

505
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,560
in Ontario.

506
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,600
And so we worked right up to the very end.

507
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:58,640
It was going to move forward and then Premier Ray stepped in and said, no way.

508
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,560
And so that killed it immediately.

509
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:08,440
So we decided that we would try at the national level because then it would impact all of

510
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:09,440
Canada.

511
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,040
And at the end of the day, we worked with a group of people.

512
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,120
We had a coalition of people, including the industry.

513
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,800
So a lot of people might not like that very much.

514
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:28,320
But we went to various ministers at the time with this coalition of people who were all

515
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,560
supporting, including the industry, who were all supporting this ban.

516
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:41,080
So at the end of the day, it was an easy victory for the government with nobody really in opposition.

517
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:46,640
And so that's why it became a very positive experience.

518
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,440
And why the opposition?

519
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:56,220
I feel like this is an easy, yes, let's ban cosmetic testing.

520
00:40:56,220 --> 00:40:57,680
We don't need it.

521
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:03,360
And it's actually truly horrible in the spectrum of suffering.

522
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,860
This is something very acute.

523
00:41:07,860 --> 00:41:09,160
So why?

524
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:17,280
Why do people hesitate on supporting, hesitated on supporting this ban?

525
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:25,000
If you're a politician and the cosmetic industry comes to you and say, look, if you ban us

526
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:30,840
testing on animals, we cannot assure the safe delivery of the cosmetic because some of it

527
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:39,720
needs parabens, very, very difficult products that actually do need to be tested in some

528
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:41,600
manner or other.

529
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:50,120
The difference, I think, today is that there has been an explosion of change in non-animal

530
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,520
alternatives, NAMs.

531
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:58,480
There's a recognition that animals are not the gold standard for most animal testing,

532
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:05,880
not just cosmetics, but education and training and testing and even biomedical research because

533
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:14,600
each animal, even though they all look the same because they're genetically a replica,

534
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,520
they're all individuals.

535
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:24,760
They all react to stress, housing, food, et cetera, they react differently to those changes.

536
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:32,560
And so it makes a result from one mouse not to be predictive for another mouse or another

537
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,560
rat or another dog.

538
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:43,640
And so I just attended the World Congress on non-animal alternatives and there is an

539
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:50,800
explosion of people looking at alternative ways of doing these kinds of tests, finding

540
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,560
that it's less expensive, more accurate.

541
00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:05,880
The drug companies are the leaders in it because it's shocking, but 90 to 95% of the drugs

542
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:12,840
that were of benefit to the animals are of no benefit to people or in fact are problematic

543
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:13,840
for people.

544
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:19,220
And so the industry is pouring millions of dollars into dead end kind of research.

545
00:43:19,220 --> 00:43:23,280
So they're seriously looking for change.

546
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,720
The biggest numbers of animals in research is used in the biomedical field and that's

547
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:34,700
a much harder area to actually bring about change, but there is a lot of work being done.

548
00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:39,280
So I'm very hopeful that things are going to change fairly quickly over the next five

549
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,080
or six years.

550
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:50,920
With Dr. Jens Voeld, who's running the Faux Nursing Trary here in Quebec where I am, we

551
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:56,360
talked about experimentations on monkeys and chimps.

552
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:01,280
What is the situation right now concerning testing on primates?

553
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:10,220
Well, let me back up a little bit because in Canada we have very bad...

554
00:44:10,220 --> 00:44:15,760
We have really no legislation that would protect animals in research laboratories.

555
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:22,520
The Canadian Council on Animal Care is the governing body, but it's voluntary.

556
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:29,080
You can't atip it and not all the companies, private companies don't have to belong.

557
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:34,800
So in fact, we have no idea how many animals are being used in Canada, what they're being

558
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,800
used for, what kind of invasive procedures are happening.

559
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:46,040
If you look at the undercover work that was done by Last Chance for Animals for ITR, which

560
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:52,240
is a testing laboratory in Quebec near Montreal, I think, you look at how those animals were

561
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:55,960
treated, which was shocking.

562
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:03,240
They were abusive beyond just the testing part of it.

563
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:09,640
That organization is part of the CCAC and continue to hold their certificate of good

564
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,520
animal practice, regardless of what we saw in that undercover thing.

565
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:21,320
So the problem is that we have very little leverage to know exactly what's going on and

566
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:22,920
how things are being done.

567
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:24,200
The only way...

568
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:30,720
Ontario has an Animals for Research Act, which we can do with freedom of information, and

569
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:36,800
that has exposed a number of really problematic things in research laboratories with regard

570
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,240
to animal welfare.

571
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:43,240
And the other big thing, so if people want to learn about the Canadian Council on Animal

572
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:46,960
Care, they can go to the Animal Alliance website.

573
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,240
It has a whole report on the deficiencies of...

574
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:57,280
But the big, big thing that I think really exposed in a big way was our Department of

575
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:07,680
National Defense report called Defenseless about the use of 10-week-old pigs in trauma

576
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:08,720
training.

577
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:15,240
So they knock the pigs out and then they eviscerate them, irradiate them, chop off their legs,

578
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:20,600
cut their guts out, all sorts of different things, and then try and sew them back up

579
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:28,160
and learn how to do trauma when there's absolutely alternatives to that process.

580
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:34,800
So it just exposes the problem.

581
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,600
And the reason why we got the Department of National Defense is anybody, any research

582
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:47,480
facility that gets government funding can be a tit or a foit.

583
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:54,040
And at the end of the day, it just shows you that there is virtually no protection for

584
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,400
animals in research laboratories.

585
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,520
Animal care committees are supposed to be the drivers to care for the animals, to make

586
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,160
sure they're being treated properly and so on.

587
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:11,320
The information that we got out of Ontario's Animals for Research Act is that these animals,

588
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:12,320
most of the animals...

589
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:19,720
Not most, animal care committees can be dysfunctional, not meet, never go into the lab to look at

590
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:25,840
the animals, approve greater numbers that you were used rather than lesser numbers,

591
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,320
all sorts of different things that run contrary to what animal care committees are supposed

592
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,040
to do.

593
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:38,360
And so it makes it really difficult to kind of get a handle on what's happening.

594
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:39,360
That's the thing.

595
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:48,240
There might be laws forbidding certain unethical behaviors, but are they applied?

596
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:50,880
There are no laws that require ethical behavior.

597
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:59,080
It is supposed to be that the core of protecting research animals is the animal care committee.

598
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:00,080
Okay.

599
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:05,680
So the Department of National Defense has a number of different areas in which they

600
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:10,320
use animals for testing and research.

601
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:17,360
And yet there's only one animal care committee to monitor that whole range of numbers of

602
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:22,080
animals that are used by the Department of National Defense.

603
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,280
And that's one that we can figure out.

604
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,720
We don't have information on any of the other testing labs.

605
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:35,840
We've done an ATIP request on the numbers of non-human primates that are being brought

606
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:36,840
into the country.

607
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:43,000
And there's this whole debate going on about the short-tailed macaques that are coming

608
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,240
from Cambodia, whether they're from the wild, whether they're from the streets, whether

609
00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:49,120
from a breeding facility.

610
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:56,760
And so we'll figure out whether that's happening by the ATIP request that we will have ultimately

611
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:57,760
fulfilled.

612
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:06,480
At the moment, I mean, any normal citizen, me included, unless you really dig around,

613
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,240
cannot find anything out about what happens to these animals.

614
00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:21,240
Just briefly, there was one investigation report from Ontario, from the Ontario, and

615
00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:23,080
they had a non-human primate.

616
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:24,880
Don't know what species, because they didn't say it.

617
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,440
They redacted all that.

618
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:37,160
This non-human primate had contacted a MRSA, which is, you know, anyway, they didn't know

619
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:38,280
what to do with his animals.

620
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:48,080
So he was shut in a room in a tiny little cage and left because that MRSA can be passed

621
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,840
on to other non-human primates.

622
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:56,760
And obviously the person who was doing the inspection said that that wasn't acceptable.

623
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,840
But how long was that animal there like that?

624
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,540
Where was the animal care committee?

625
00:50:00,540 --> 00:50:03,640
How could that possibly happen?

626
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:08,840
And so you realize that when things like this break down, that there's just nothing there

627
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:14,440
that really demands them to do something right for that animal.

628
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:21,240
Well, I mean, you just have to visit the shelter and see how people who are supposed to be

629
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:26,200
loving their animals take care of them.

630
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:32,240
And then you think that if this is the level, then what should I expect from an industry

631
00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:35,020
that only cares about profit?

632
00:50:35,020 --> 00:50:42,160
And also that's why we should advocate for giving the legal status of a person to animals,

633
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:48,320
because if they're not people, according to the law, then they don't have legal rights.

634
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,600
Yeah, they're considered objects.

635
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:58,240
But if listeners want to know more about the plight of non-human primates, they can listen

636
00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:03,120
to my episode one of the podcast with Dr. Jens Vold.

637
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:10,480
She draws a good portrait of the situation.

638
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:19,040
I want to discuss something I consider one of the greatest threat to animal rights activism.

639
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,320
And I'm talking about the ag gag laws.

640
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:31,140
Yeah, that was the reason why I approached my MP this past summer.

641
00:51:31,140 --> 00:51:32,840
So what are those?

642
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:37,600
And why are they so dangerous for our cause?

643
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:43,320
Well, the worst of the ag ag laws is Ontario.

644
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:48,800
Okay, so they provide the farmer with the right to arrest somebody if the person's on

645
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:50,520
the farm.

646
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:55,640
People get fined for trying to document the condition of animals, even in the trucks that

647
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,720
go by so they're not on the farm.

648
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:03,120
And so animal justice is going in as the main.

649
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,320
We've acted as interveners in the process.

650
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:12,280
And that court case takes place at the end of October, beginning of November.

651
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:21,240
And I think it's one of the most important court cases because animal at the bill 156

652
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:30,040
actually actually, you come away from it, thinking that animal rights people are thugs

653
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,720
and do illegal activities.

654
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:36,400
So what is sorry, Liz, what is that bill?

655
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,800
Who wrote that bill?

656
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,760
And who introduced that bill to the Ontario government under Doug Ford?

657
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,040
So Doug Ford is member of the Progressive Conservative Party.

658
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,720
They're elected with a majority government.

659
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:53,520
It was passed in his first term.

660
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:59,400
Because there were some people who went on to the farm to document the current situation

661
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,640
on whichever farm they chose, and there were a number of undercover things.

662
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,240
Mercy for Animals went into Maple Lodge Farms.

663
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:11,840
And I think it was Last Chance for Animals that went on to a goat farm.

664
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:18,000
So all these exposés were kind of rolling out showing that farmers who say they love

665
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:23,840
their animals, but none of us could measure that quite as love, given the condition that

666
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:25,160
these animals were in.

667
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:30,600
And it also they exposed a number of dairy operations and pig operations in Alberta and

668
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:31,600
BC.

669
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:38,200
And so there was this rising fear, I guess, amongst the farming community that would actually

670
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:39,200
impact their industry.

671
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,800
And I think it could.

672
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:49,160
But the only way that they chose to deal with it was to shut down all observation of the

673
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:53,120
condition of the animals as opposed to say, OK, we don't need this bill.

674
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:54,760
We have a trespass bill.

675
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:55,760
We'll trespass on properties.

676
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:57,840
We can deal with that.

677
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:04,400
But we want to be more open and transparent about the condition of these animals and but

678
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:05,600
chose the other way.

679
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:15,940
So I think this is the most regressive bill that I've read because it impacts every aspect

680
00:54:15,940 --> 00:54:23,320
of what animal rights people do, including documenting on the farm or just watching the

681
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,400
trucks go by and documenting the animals.

682
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:31,640
There's a couple of people that sit out in front of St. Helens Meats.

683
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,320
They handle a lot of spent dairy cows.

684
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:38,560
So these animals are in pretty bad condition.

685
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:45,400
And so but some of them have had huge fines for doing that.

686
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,720
And luckily, they've continued to go back.

687
00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:55,160
But you risk everything, your money, everything by doing it.

688
00:54:55,160 --> 00:55:01,320
And thankfully, some people do because short of doing that, you can't really show how the

689
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,400
animals exist.

690
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:10,560
And now they want to pass a similar bill, but on the federal level.

691
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,600
And they say that it's for health reasons.

692
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:21,360
We don't want you to enter the slaughterhouses and buildings because you're going to contaminate

693
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:22,960
the place.

694
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,760
So yeah, what do you think about that?

695
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,320
I think it's utter nonsense.

696
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:37,560
Most of the time, people go in there and just sit and and document what's going on.

697
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:45,360
And if people are really worried about biosecurity, there isn't one vehicle that has gone into

698
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:50,680
those plants where people have given the pigs water or taken pictures of the cows that have

699
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:55,680
turned back because biosecurity was violated.

700
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:01,180
And in fact, when you look in these trucks, they're so filthy, dirty from these poor animals

701
00:56:01,180 --> 00:56:05,160
and the stress that biosecurity is a joke.

702
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:15,520
In fact, on the transfer of bird flu, there have been some look at that.

703
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:21,240
And the spread of bird flu came from cross contamination from one vehicle entering a

704
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:26,240
barn and cleaning it up, going to the next bar, entering that barn, cleaning it up, and

705
00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:27,500
so on and so forth.

706
00:56:27,500 --> 00:56:31,640
So the transmission doesn't come from animal rights people.

707
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:37,040
We're not even we don't want to have anything to do with eating the animals.

708
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:43,560
So it's ridiculous, really.

709
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:51,880
It's ridiculous, but it's fascinating because it's like they take a threat, which is viruses

710
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:56,240
coming from slaughterhouses and their industry.

711
00:56:56,240 --> 00:57:02,800
And they're making it look like it's the fault of animal rights activists.

712
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:07,960
And we're risking public health.

713
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:14,400
We're a threat to public health for everyone else when they're the cause for so many what

714
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:19,480
we call zoonotic diseases.

715
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:25,120
And this is something your position, your party takes position against.

716
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:33,400
And I think it is essential, I think in politics, now that we have gone through COVID-19 and

717
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:41,260
understood what is at stake with the pandemic, I think every political party should think

718
00:57:41,260 --> 00:57:47,420
about the risk of zoonotic diseases.

719
00:57:47,420 --> 00:57:51,380
So you're taking a position on that issue.

720
00:57:51,380 --> 00:57:53,720
What is that position?

721
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,360
Can you expand on that?

722
00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:01,080
On the issue of transference of zoonotic diseases, you mean?

723
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:06,000
Yes, of the public health threat that the industry represents.

724
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,680
I just read an article the other day, which said we haven't learned anything from COVID-19,

725
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,120
from the coronavirus.

726
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:19,440
That we are in denial about the risk on the bird flu side.

727
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:25,720
Sometimes talk about animal welfare issues with a barn.

728
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,360
They have 40,000 chickens in it.

729
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,800
And that's a small barn compared to the states.

730
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:38,600
If there's an indication that there's bird flu there, how do you euthanize humanely 40,000

731
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:40,440
chickens?

732
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:41,800
So we know it's not done humanely.

733
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:50,240
They have to shut the barn door, turn off the air supply, and heat up the barn and suffocate

734
00:58:50,240 --> 00:59:00,040
the birds, 40,000, or they bury them in foam in the barn, depending on what species of

735
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,080
bird we're talking about.

736
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:11,320
And so there is this fear, but they don't want to do anything really about it.

737
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:18,440
And I think we're sitting on very, very tenuous circumstances.

738
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:23,280
I went to the City of Toronto, we went to the City of Toronto a little while ago asking

739
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:27,800
them to shut down backyard chicken operations.

740
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,680
That was over a number, we started a number of years ago, a number of years ago, nobody

741
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:34,800
thought there was a problem, you know, we're just being silly.

742
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:41,840
This time it worked, because at least the public health person said there is a real

743
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:48,120
risk of transference of bird flu from the animals to people and the start of a pandemic,

744
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:49,200
we shouldn't do this.

745
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:54,640
So the city banned backyard chickens, but that is so small in comparison to the large

746
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,800
agricultural package.

747
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:04,440
And so far, I see no indication that anybody is really doing anything real about it.

748
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:10,560
Because and by the way, I talked about this with Colin, who was a worker of this industry,

749
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:14,840
he's now a microbiologist, he's working in the health sector.

750
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:22,200
And he was talking about it is only a question of time before this backyard chicken situation

751
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:30,160
will get to, you know, disease transmission pandemic crisis.

752
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:35,120
And many virologists have said, you know, it is only a question of time before the big

753
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,840
one before a big pandemic.

754
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:45,480
And by exploiting animals by doing this, by going through, you know, doing this animal

755
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:53,560
exploitation thing, by supporting this industry, we're just playing the odds.

756
01:00:53,560 --> 01:01:02,840
So yeah, what can we do about it? Concretely? Do you have any actions?

757
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:03,840
That's a real toughie.

758
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:09,400
I think you, you know, you got to live your own values and, and just by virtue of not

759
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,840
buying into the industry at all.

760
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:18,720
I think if, if people have the opportunity to go and document, I mean, you know, we have

761
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:25,360
these spent dairy cows that are going into St. Helens, some of them are in grim, grim,

762
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:26,360
awful stuff.

763
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:31,320
And some of them are downers, which should not be transported.

764
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:35,680
And even complacent to the CFIA doesn't really rectify that situation.

765
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:43,280
So I think the more we find that stuff, the more we expose it.

766
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:52,040
And I think the industry has been smart in that they have blamed wildlife for the spread

767
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,140
of the, of the bird flu.

768
01:01:55,140 --> 01:02:00,080
The latest article that I saw research done on that is that it hasn't come from wild animals

769
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:01,480
at all.

770
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,480
These birds are locked into a barn.

771
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:11,440
And so it's, it's, it's clearly within the purview of the industry.

772
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:16,200
And I think they're playing with our health, their health, and obviously the bird's health

773
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:19,120
in a very reckless way.

774
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,080
And what about the end of the antibiotic era?

775
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:27,440
I guess there is more momentum around that.

776
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:32,720
I've heard people talking about the antibiotic, the end of the anti, so the, you know, the

777
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:34,640
superbugs and things like that.

778
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:35,640
Right.

779
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:36,640
That they can't, yeah.

780
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:44,000
Because I've been hearing people talking about this since, I don't know, 10 years ago, you

781
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:45,000
know.

782
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:50,960
So this is not as recent as the discussion on pandemics.

783
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:56,760
Have we made some progress around that or are we just as blind as we were?

784
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:58,360
I think we're running pretty blind.

785
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:08,320
We have the federal government set up committee to look at these anti, the antibiotic resistant

786
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,440
bugs.

787
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,800
But I don't think that they've really done anything about it.

788
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:23,960
I mean, you can't keep animals in intensive conditions without using antibiotics, growth

789
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:33,640
promotants, you know, milk enhancements, all those sort of things that A, compromise the

790
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:37,920
ability of the animal to fight off whatever disease there is.

791
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:44,840
And then of course, the antibiotic becomes resistant to, it becomes resistant to the

792
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:46,200
antibiotic.

793
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:55,360
And so I think there's, I think they continue to play a very scary role in the whole issue

794
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:56,360
of pandemic.

795
01:03:56,360 --> 01:04:04,040
It's, you know, with COVID, it was easy to point your finger at another country and blame

796
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:14,880
another different people from us for actually passing on the, but the large animal agriculture

797
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:20,160
industry is going to be the feeder, I think of another pandemic.

798
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:24,600
I hope that's not true, but I think that is a good possibility.

799
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:29,740
And I think we're going to see, think about it with these antibiotic resistant drugs.

800
01:04:29,740 --> 01:04:35,440
When you go into the hospital and you have an infection, you get these antibiotics, if

801
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:39,720
those are no longer active, what does that mean?

802
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:40,720
What does that mean?

803
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:45,400
Even from a self-interested point of view, if you can't get an antibiotic that's going

804
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:52,080
to deal with you, with having a bug, what does that mean for the population?

805
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:58,160
And so, I mean, even from a self-motivated point of view, I would suggest that people

806
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:02,320
get busy and start doing something about it.

807
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:09,200
I was told by a physician, we limit prescribing antibiotics to people because we don't want

808
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:17,200
this antibiotic resistance state in society.

809
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:24,780
And I thought it was just such a funny joke because here we have millions of animals being

810
01:05:24,780 --> 01:05:32,080
injected with antibiotics daily and you're limiting the prescription of antibiotics to

811
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:33,080
humans.

812
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:34,080
This is crazy.

813
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:41,480
Well, the vast majority, I think, I don't know the percentage, but way up 80, 90% of

814
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,400
antibiotics produced are for agriculture animals.

815
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:49,080
It's got nothing to do with human beings and it's to allow them to raise them intensively.

816
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:58,840
I think a government that would just ban the use of antibiotics as a way to allow intensive

817
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,760
animal agriculture would begin to make that change.

818
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:04,200
People have to make that change pretty quickly.

819
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:08,600
So yes, it's a threat, but it's also a challenge.

820
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:14,440
And I hope that people who are listening feel like maybe this is for them.

821
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,720
This is the area where they want to make a difference.

822
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:21,480
This is calling for further action.

823
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:25,480
So Liz, did you want to add something before we end this conversation?

824
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:30,600
Well, I would encourage anybody who has this burning desire.

825
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:39,280
And that's, I think, how most of us feel to go out there and do something to or try to

826
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:43,840
protect the animals that you're most interested in.

827
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:49,960
I would recommend that you go for it full tilt because we need many, many, many more

828
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:57,560
people who are willing to look at the political side of it and to figure out how best to do

829
01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:58,560
that.

830
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:04,280
I would recommend people just to begin to immerse yourself in some of the politics before

831
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:07,280
you even deal with the issues that you want.

832
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:09,440
Go work in a campaign.

833
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:11,040
Go canvas.

834
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:14,560
Go try these various things.

835
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:21,360
Sign up as a volunteer for your MP or your MPP to help with various things.

836
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:23,280
Listen to what people are saying.

837
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,200
Figure out how people move these issues forward.

838
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:34,160
And then apply that learning to your own desire to begin to make change for animals.

839
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:38,600
And so a lot of it isn't actually documenting.

840
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,360
You have to do that.

841
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:46,960
But most of it is figuring out how you get that information to the politician who might

842
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,240
actually move the thing forward.

843
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:51,340
And that's a skill in itself.

844
01:07:51,340 --> 01:07:59,200
But I would argue it is the primary skill that you need to actually make change.

845
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,480
So I would recommend that people become political.

846
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:03,480
Great.

847
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:04,480
That's an invitation.

848
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:11,360
So Liz, thank you so much for having been a guest and for having answered my questions.

849
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:13,360
This was a pleasure.

850
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:14,360
Thank you very much.

851
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:16,240
It was a pleasure talking to you.

852
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:18,320
Thank you everyone for listening.

853
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:22,280
I hope you feel inspired by this conversation.

854
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:29,520
Liz has truly challenged my cynicism toward politics, whether you are Canadian or not.

855
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:34,720
If you want to follow her footsteps and make a difference, make sure to visit the description

856
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:39,520
below where I left some relevant links.

857
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:45,480
Subscribe to the podcast now and don't miss out on next week's episode covering anonymous

858
01:08:45,480 --> 01:08:46,860
for the voiceless.

859
01:08:46,860 --> 01:08:50,560
You know those activists wearing that mysterious mask.

860
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:51,560
What is it all about?

861
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:54,040
Tune in to find out.

862
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:58,520
And as always, please tell your family and friends about the show and why you love it

863
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:00,000
so much.

864
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:06,280
Finally, you can always follow me on Instagram at vegan report podcast.

865
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:08,040
Thank you again for listening.

866
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:34,040
Take care and see you soon.