1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,000 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report. 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:10,080 If you're vegan for ethical reasons and you care to do more for animal rights, 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:16,240 but you're not sure where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, fall in love 4 00:00:16,240 --> 00:00:23,760 with passionate, thought-provoking and inspiring animal rights leaders who will help you find 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:31,600 your voice, your own special contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:37,680 Today we are going to talk about the negative impact of working in a slaughterhouse. And let 7 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:44,080 me introduce this topic by giving you some cold statistics from an excellent article called 8 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:50,560 For Slaughterhouse Workers, Physical Injuries Are Only the Beginning, published by the Organization 9 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:57,520 on Labor. And this is a US organization, but my belief is you can expect the same reality 10 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:04,400 everywhere. The article reads, slaughterhouse workers earn a medium average of just about 11 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:13,040 $14 and disproportionately come from marginalized and underserved populations. 80.8% of frontline 12 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:20,240 meatpacking workers are people of color, more than half were born outside of the US, and over one 13 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:27,200 quarter come from households with limited English proficiency. Nearly half of all slaughterhouse 14 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:36,880 workers live below 200% of the poverty line. In 2015, 5.4% of slaughterhouse workers experienced 15 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:44,560 a job-related injury or illness. Many of these injuries were severe. Over a 30-week period from 16 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:54,400 2015 to 2017, there were 550 serious injuries reported in US slaughterhouses, including 270 17 00:01:54,400 --> 00:02:01,360 incidents, requiring the imputation of a body part. For many slaughterhouse workers, physical 18 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:07,760 injuries only scratch the surface of their suffering. A growing body of evidence has emerged 19 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:14,160 surrounding the intense psychological toll that slaughterhouses have on the workers that 20 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:20,000 allow them to operate. As one former slaughterhouse employee wrote for BBC, 21 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:27,680 I didn't suffer physical injuries, but the place affected my mind. At night, my mind would taunt me 22 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:34,480 with nightmares, replaying some of the horrors I'd witnessed. To discuss this topic, I have with me 23 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:41,280 Varun Joshi, who is one of those people contributing to expanding the body of evidence related to the 24 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:46,720 psychological impact of working on a slaughterhouse. Varun, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much 25 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:53,760 for being here. Thank you so much for having me. This is actually the second time that we have 26 00:02:53,760 --> 00:03:00,320 recorded this conversation. We had some technical problems the first time that's podcasting for you. 27 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:07,280 So thank you so much for accepting to do this a second time. Absolutely. My pleasure. 28 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:15,040 So Varun, you're here because you're studying slaughterhouses and slaughterhouse workers. 29 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:23,440 Why did you decide to choose this field of study? What was your journey from being 30 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:30,320 interested in animal rights to making it into activism work? 31 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:40,000 I like the way you asked that question because I reflect on that almost every single day. It's like, 32 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:46,000 why did I decide to pick a topic like this? Because there's not really any money in it. 33 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:53,360 I am up against what I feel like is the world, but just Canadian culture. I'm based out of 34 00:03:53,360 --> 00:04:02,880 Brampton, Ontario. It's part of the greater Toronto area. We're in a very agriculture heavy 35 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:09,360 province, a province and country that thinks big beef is a part of its heritage and one of the 36 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:14,240 foundational stones of the country, which it is, along with dairy and just overall exploitation 37 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:19,120 and violence against animals. For me, I decided to pick this topic because 38 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:26,640 I'm against any kind of violence against people for any reason and animals land. When I became vegan, 39 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:33,760 I realized when I wake up every day, I need to be doing some kind of job that aligns to that value. 40 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,960 Because if it doesn't, I just, I can't live with myself. Once you become aware of certain atrocities 41 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:44,560 in the world, whether it's related to sexism, racism, discrimination against someone because of, 42 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,640 I don't know, for whatever reason, you can't just ignore that and go on with your day. In the same 43 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:56,080 manner, once you realize what's happening to animals, I feel like the average vegan, you can't 44 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:02,480 just turn away. I'm not saying every single vegan has to become an activist. It's hard to go on with 45 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:08,240 daily life. It was for me as well. I figured, what am I good at? I thought, I don't know about 46 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:14,400 good at, but I'm passionate about arguing. I love to talk. I'm passionate about being 47 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:20,080 vegan. Academia is important to me. I pride myself on being a man of science, always trying to find 48 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:27,600 the truth. At the time I was going vegan, I was in the pursuit of higher academia. I was finishing 49 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:33,600 up my second undergraduate degree. I realized law school wasn't an option for me because I was 50 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,440 recovering from a concussion. Certain symptoms made it hard for me to study. I'm like, what else 51 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:43,200 can I do? It's a little bit less strenuous. A master's in criminology had seemed a little 52 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,680 bit more feasible. There's more reading, a lot of thinking, but not as much... 53 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,200 It's a different type of mental toughness that I felt I was engaging with than I realized. 54 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,800 Well, if I'm going to do grad school, what am I passionate about? I realized I'm passionate about 55 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:04,400 more than anything animals and focusing on why it is humanity as a whole likes to mess them up, 56 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:09,680 why humanity as a whole likes to be violent towards them. I always used to think, how can 57 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:15,280 someone slaughter animals? What makes someone want to slaughter an animal? There's lots of reasons 58 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:21,280 to that, but that's the initial question that got me interested in the first place. I did my 59 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:25,920 master's in criminology where I just dwelled right into it under my mentor at the University of 60 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:32,080 Windsor. Dr. Amy Fitzgerald, anyone who's listening to this, please go check her workout. I haven't 61 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:36,480 looked back since. No, that's a lie. I have looked back. I looked back several times, almost every 62 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:41,840 day being like, why am I doing this? But to answer the question in one word, I can't live with myself 63 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:46,080 if I don't do something. And I figured, let me give academia a chance as much as I can. Let's try to 64 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,880 influence some policy with research. If that doesn't work, we'll worry about that later, but 65 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:56,960 let's try to do activism through academia. That's why I decided to study slaughterhouse work. 66 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:04,080 So you mentioned now many times how this field of study is challenging, 67 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:14,160 partly because you're in Canada and the environment is not propitious for this kind of line of study, 68 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:22,560 but also because it is hard to study the exploitation of animals. I feel like you're, 69 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:30,480 I talked with many activists who are exposed to footage of animals being tortured or killed, 70 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:39,120 and that is a grind. It is difficult on your mental health. So explain what are the challenges of 71 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:46,720 studying animal exploitation, trying to answer those questions you posed. 72 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,520 I think the biggest obstacle is every single person from the political spectrum, 73 00:07:53,520 --> 00:08:00,080 every gender, every ethnicity, any kind of social aspect of some person. 74 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,240 Everyone in the world is against you. Even other vegans might be against you. And I say that 75 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:13,040 not in a way to sound somewhat arrogant, but I genuinely believe that trying to protest and 76 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,960 create a more just world for animals is more revolutionary than anything else this planet 77 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,200 has ever seen because we've been fighting and killing each other for centuries, 78 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:26,720 for millennia. People have thought to do something about animals, but since the dawn of time, there's 79 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,840 been progress in almost every part of social and civil society except for animals. We still always 80 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:37,360 find a way to make it acceptable to allow them to be victims of violence for whatever means it is. 81 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:43,600 It doesn't matter which circle you're in, it's always going to be animals getting the, excuse 82 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:48,160 my language, shit under the stick. It's always going to be, oh, we can make conditions for 83 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:53,920 them. We can focus on that after we focus on issue A or issue B. And for me, it's just, 84 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,640 it's not good enough. It's like, no, I refuse to participate in violence against people due to 85 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:05,920 their race, ethnicity, gender, class. But in the same way, I refuse to participate in violence 86 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:12,000 against anyone, any being based off their species as well. So I want that current mentality, 87 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:17,920 if I don't want to hurt someone if I don't have to, I want to be able to be able to be able to 88 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,480 do that. And there's no point to doing so, but I would like to see people extend it to animals 89 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,880 as well. And the fact is people don't. Like I think about my workplace, I love where I work right now. 90 00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:33,200 I did a new job three weeks ago. We have a lot of anti-oppression training, which I love, man. 91 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,360 I'm all about that. I want to make sure that we don't reproduce any wrongs that we might 92 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:42,960 unintentionally or intentionally commit against anybody, whoever it might be. But I needed to 93 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:49,040 animals. And I noticed my coworkers, some of them asking, how does that look like in practice? And 94 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,760 like, it's frustrating. I can't really just say everyone go vegan because that's not enough. 95 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,680 Going vegan isn't enough. You know, with one animal liberation, there has to be something more. We have 96 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:04,160 to be anti-species, anti-violence. And it's just, it's such a large conversation to have. 97 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,360 You don't even know where to begin. So I think that's what makes it so difficult, 98 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:14,480 just at a really macro level. And then at a micro level for myself, you know, I'm, I have 99 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:21,120 history with mental health and depression, anxiety. I hope this isn't like trigger warning for anyone 100 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,680 who, you know, just on topics of violence and severe mental health stuff. I tried to kill myself 101 00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:31,440 in March. Just a really bad series of events that my mental health was not really well. And 102 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:39,040 a part of that was triggered by me working on a chapter of the violence against cows in India. 103 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:44,560 And how people that are for it and against it are missing the bigger picture. There's violence 104 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:49,200 being reproduced everywhere. And I took a break from work and school to write that chapter. 105 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,360 I ended up traumatizing myself unintentionally without knowing. And then 106 00:10:55,680 --> 00:11:01,280 it becomes one of those situations where if you aren't seeking therapy actively, 107 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,600 you aren't making sure you're exercising, eating, doing whatever you need to do to be in a healthy 108 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,400 mental space, you might really mess yourself up if you try to focus on anything animal related, 109 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,560 because you're ultimately looking at violence. You're reading about violence. Like I, my masters, 110 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,600 looking at slaughterhouse footage and then attempt to get myself familiar with what's happening. 111 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:24,000 I kind of traumatize myself there. I stopped doing that. I have to limit myself to just reading 112 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,720 stuff. Like it's still take a toll. So at the micro level for me and God knows how many people, 113 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:35,760 maybe yourself, Ryan, maybe anybody like just encountering these things at an individual level, 114 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:41,040 whether it's a book, a movie, maybe you walking outside at a mall and you see hunting gear 115 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:46,000 somewhere. It's like you're encountering violence everywhere. So I think that's what the most 116 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,880 difficult aspect of it is. I think that was a very long way to say that. Sorry. 117 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:58,880 No, it's okay. Thank you for sharing this experience and making it into a warning for people who 118 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:09,200 want to get involved more deeply in the animal rights cause. Yeah, it reminds me of that quote 119 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:17,040 from Nietzsche. Nietzsche, I think in English is pronounced where he says, if you gaze into the 120 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:28,640 abyss, the abyss gaze at you, it's, you're not unaffected when you expose yourself to that kind 121 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:40,800 of evil. Yeah. And what about the more technical challenges about your study of slaughterhouses? 122 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:46,720 I know that in our first conversation, you made a very good point about how slaughterhouses 123 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:57,040 are those isolated places that are very hard to get to, to observe, to study in general, 124 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:04,720 and it is done in purpose. So can you expand on that? 125 00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:09,920 I got you. So there's a few different angles, which we've got to address this question. 126 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:15,520 Through the first thing being just physically slash geographically, it is very difficult to 127 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:20,560 study slaughterhouses ever since slaughterhouses came into the scene in the late 1800s in North 128 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:26,720 America. They started off in urban areas and metropolitan places like Chicago and very urban 129 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:33,280 cities, just cost-effective problem is unlike any other industry in the world, no other industry 130 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:39,200 comes nearly close to at least no other prop for profit industry comes as close to slaughterhouses 131 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:45,440 when it comes to the waste that's produced and the stimuli that the surrounding individuals are 132 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:51,440 going to know about. Think about the smells, think about the actual noises, think about the logistics 133 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:56,240 of getting things in and out, all the pollution. It is very difficult to keep that all contained, 134 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,960 especially as more and more people live in a concentrated areas. So historically slaughterhouses 135 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:06,480 have slowly started shifting out and spreading outwards in more isolated regions, partially to 136 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,200 keep themselves away from the masses. And this is done for a variety of reasons. You avoid scrutiny, 137 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:16,720 less people can see anything that might happen that goes on in there. There's less regulation from 138 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,840 external bodies. If anyone wants to do anything, they have to go usually a distance to access this. 139 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,000 And when it comes to waste, it's a little bit easier to handle that any of the effluent that 140 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,640 comes out of slaughterhouses, including blood, body parts, you name it, whatever it is, a little 141 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:35,280 bit easier for owners of slaughterhouses to deal with, easier for them to dispose with it in 142 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:41,040 non-legal ways or ways that are convenient to them, such as, but not limited to spraying blood in 143 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:48,400 nearby fields. That happens in Canada, in the USA, things like blood, feces, a mixture of body parts, 144 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:55,760 they're essentially heated up and sprayed into nearby fields as well, but they end up in local 145 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:00,800 homes and regions that are close to it. People usually living close to this. They could be 146 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,000 workers at the slaughterhouse, but they don't necessarily have to be. They're not going to be 147 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,160 workers at the slaughterhouse, but they don't necessarily have to be. But regardless, they get 148 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:14,720 screwed because they face the smells that this nastiness is produced from the slaughterhouse. 149 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:22,160 But in regards to the technical difficulty, just the geographical proximity, lack of proximity, 150 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,800 it makes it very difficult to engage with them, whether you're an academic or you're the average 151 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:33,520 person. At the political level, from a Canadian perspective, I'm sure, I know it's a little bit 152 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,920 pretty bad in Canada, and I'm sure it's awful everywhere in the world. But just speaking from 153 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,880 my personal experience, I believe it's called Bill 156, passed by the, I believe it's being 154 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,120 debated right now. I haven't checked just because life's happening and it's hard to keep track of 155 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:53,440 these things sometimes. I really should though. So Bill 156, I believe it's a biosecurity bill. 156 00:15:54,560 --> 00:16:01,360 It's a fancy bullshit term for people that defend animal agriculture to, 157 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:06,320 not people, the industries behind animal agriculture. This was the first bill that was 158 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:12,240 attempted to be passed during the pandemic, when the pandemic was raging on in 2020. And it's 159 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:18,240 intended to protect farm animals from biosecurity risks, but it is essentially an ag-gag law, which 160 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:24,880 is designed to stop anybody from the public from revealing whatever happens inside of slaughterhouses. 161 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,960 People that try to do that can be met with fines, potentially jail time, just sometimes 162 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,520 some kind of label from the law, from the criminal justice system, which can just make their lives 163 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,520 more difficult. And this is the worst part of the whole thing. It's done in the name of protecting 164 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,200 animals, but I mean, you can't protect animals from anything when you're ultimately harming them 165 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:48,720 yourselves. But at the political level, the point of me bringing that bill up is I'm operating under 166 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,680 a government that doesn't care. Not only does it not care, it will violently defend whatever it's 167 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:59,600 currently doing to animals. I attend the University of Guelph. It's the most animal agriculture heavy 168 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,160 university I can think of. On my first day, my first class was in the animal science building, 169 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:09,680 and I'm like, my program's in sociology. Why on earth am I, why am I in this building? And, 170 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,560 you know, when it comes to funding, I guess this goes away from political more towards kind of 171 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,040 educational slash social level. I'm going to be, there's more scholarships available. There's 172 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:25,760 more funding opportunities available for the animal agriculture sciences. And these projects, 173 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,320 they're not about the rights and justice of animals. It's about their welfare in regards to 174 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:35,200 how can we treat them as an object in the nicest way possible? They're essentially trying to find 175 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:40,480 a way to do something inherently wrong in the most nice, compassionate way, which is a fundamental 176 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,880 contradiction. If you were to go, anyone were to go to the University of Guelph website right now 177 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,760 and look at what their graduate students are doing. I don't think they should be harassed 178 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,280 or anything like that. I don't want anyone listening to this to go harass them. I'd love for people to 179 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,760 email them and ask the students, Hey, so how do you do this to the animal ethically with concern for 180 00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:00,240 the animal when you don't need to have those conversations going, but like there's more 181 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:07,040 resources for these, for these people that essentially mess up animals. So, and that leads 182 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,360 like the fourth kind of angle, like economically, this ties in with school, but there's more money 183 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:17,200 invested into big dairy, big beef, big chicken, big, whatever animal agriculture related, 184 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:22,720 the resources they have to fight their, this battle is a lot more than anyone like myself would have 185 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:29,360 anyone like partners of this movement, like animal justice, which is one of Canada's premier legal 186 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:35,360 advocacy groups for animals, PETA, mercy for animals, you name it. No one has as much resources 187 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:40,160 as the big animal agriculture industries. When you think about those four factors I've listed, 188 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,320 and I'm sure there might even be more like there's human factors, like culturally it's in human 189 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,120 culture, almost in every culture in the world. You know what? No, I'm going to say confidently 190 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:56,640 in every culture in the human world in history to mess up animals. And I just say mess up as 191 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,600 another way for violence. I just, I get tired of saying the same thing, but there is those factors. 192 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,400 And I want anyone who's listening to this, think about other ways that I haven't mentioned, 193 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:10,880 including people, people, geography, economy, education, political, think of other ways that 194 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,200 animals are messed up in your vicinity. There's probably more. I'm definitely missing some. 195 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:23,360 Which makes even more admirable what you're doing because you're participating in 196 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:32,880 making the body of literature and studies about slaughterhouses, about animal exploitation from 197 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:40,640 your point of view, from the point of view of a vegan, bigger, greater, when you're confronted 198 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:48,720 with against all of those odds against all of those forces that stop you from doing what you're doing. 199 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:57,200 What is it like to be an animal rights activist in a university devoted to 200 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:06,880 serving the animal industry? I feel like you must feel like an anomaly 201 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:13,120 in this college community. First and foremost, I feel like a piece of shit. 202 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,600 I don't know how to say that more politely because 203 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,120 if I had stayed at the University of Windsor, I feel like I would have been doing better work 204 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:28,000 just because I'm not a part of a university that's so frankly disgusting in my mind when it comes to 205 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,880 supporting these kinds of things. But at the same time, it's important that I acknowledge I am at 206 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:39,520 the University of Guelph, which is very animal agriculture heavy, but it's got to start somewhere. 207 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:48,400 If there's no one else who is focusing on ways to address animal justice, I don't think I'm the first. 208 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:55,920 I hope I'm not the last. And wherever they are, whichever pockets of society that you're in where 209 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:02,560 you're dealing with a very, very uphill battle, I'm not saying go for the hardest thing, but don't shy 210 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:08,240 away from that challenge. It needs to happen because I've been able to raise questions and 211 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,840 concerns and make comments that no one else is going to think about in the sociology department 212 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,160 at my university. And if I wasn't there, maybe someone does, maybe someone doesn't, we don't 213 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:22,240 know, but we do know that because I am there right now, I can raise those. But I try not to be too 214 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,960 hard on myself there. It is hard not to be hard on yourselves though. But in regards to 215 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:33,600 how I feel generally about it, it sucks because a lot of my cohort, my peers, a lot of initiatives 216 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:40,080 on campus are about making sure we don't harm humans. We don't harm people or the environment 217 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:46,000 based on any arbitrary social aspect, race, gender, class, whatever it might be. And I'm all about 218 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,920 that. I'm all about that. It very rarely extends to animals. And when it does, it's superficial. 219 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:57,280 It comes in the form of animal welfare, which you're still hurting them. And it's just, 220 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,560 disheartening is probably the most appropriate word, frustrating and disheartening. 221 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:12,000 Well, that reminds me of a conversation I had with Dr. Heath. She's a veterinarian. She's an 222 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,280 activist. She founded an organization called Our Honor. And I recorded the conversation with her 223 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:27,040 called, Why do veterinarians eat their patients? And she mentioned how in vet schools around the 224 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:37,760 world, there is always so much mistreatment, unethical treatment of animals. But that this is 225 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:47,680 changing. A lot of colleges are now considering the well-being of the animal when they are studying 226 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:53,520 that animal. So for instance, there is no vivisection or things like that in order to form 227 00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:03,040 the body of future veterinarians. And I told her, well, that's great. That means we will have more 228 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:14,320 vegan vets in the future. And she said, well, I would recommend to go to the worst colleges out 229 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:21,680 there who have not adopted those ethical standards, because we need to bring the fight to those 230 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:28,880 people. So if you're vegan and you want to become a vet, actually go and choose a school where it is 231 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,920 harder to be a vet. So maybe this advice applies to you. 232 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,920 I'm glad you bring that up first, because I forgot to mention that Guelph has one of the few 233 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:48,560 veterinarian colleges in Ontario, my province. And people often forget, at least in Canada, 234 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:54,560 there's a significant portion of vet students, people in animal sciences that end up as vet techs 235 00:23:54,560 --> 00:24:01,680 or vets working in the slaughterhouse industry or animal agriculture. And it's horrific. And I think 236 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:08,240 I love what you said, man. It's true. Going somewhere where you're comfortable is important. 237 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,080 Mental health is important. Feeling human connection, all of that is important. But there's 238 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:19,440 also something very strong, powerful about sometimes you have to go after places where there's not 239 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:25,360 weak, once established in the enemy. And this enemy of ours is violence against animals. And if that 240 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:30,320 means, I don't know what that looks like in practice for everybody, but I agree, man, there's 241 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,200 definitely some value in that very, very important value. 242 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:44,720 Talking about Dr. Heath, she recently tagged me on a post on Instagram, where it was a news coverage 243 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,200 of a high school in a very rural area. 244 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:55,280 Well, it's now home to a pretty unique program with its very own neat processing facility. 245 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,200 They didn't teach me this one in school. Fox 23 Spencer Humphrey spent the morning touring the 246 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,200 new facility at Hartshorn High School. 247 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:08,880 And they were very proud of themselves because they had created like a small slaughterhouse 248 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:14,640 processing facility inside the high school. It's like walking behind the counter at a butcher shop. 249 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:22,960 I would say that we've got just about everything in here that most processing plants would have. 250 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:30,960 To train their students to become the future generation of worker in the slaughterhouse industry. 251 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,840 For these instructors, it's a one of a kind program. 252 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:39,040 To mold the next generation of leaders in a vital industry. 253 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,760 It's fun to see the gears turn. It's just fun watching them grow. 254 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:50,560 And I commented on her post saying, okay, I understand that the slaughterhouse is doing this 255 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:59,280 because they have one of the worst, what's it called? Turnover rates. Turnover rates in every 256 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:08,080 industry. But I don't understand why this community is condemning their youth to a 257 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:16,560 horrible professional life that will traumatize them. So can you talk about what it's like to work 258 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:22,800 for a slaughterhouse? Why do workers in slaughterhouses quit? 259 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:30,480 Before we address this topic or issue, we have to always consider our social, geographical context. 260 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,920 When we think about Canada, it's a country founded on violence against animals. Starting from colonial 261 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:44,080 times, settlers from Europe were promised land if they farm that land or receive government support 262 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:51,600 for having animals and converting indigenous wild lands into farmland. Now, I disagree with even 263 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,400 indigenous relations to animals because they're still hunting, fishing, might be sustainable, but 264 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:02,080 there's still an uneven relationship with animals. But that is still measurably better than a 265 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:09,440 European relationship towards animals that came over to Canada in the early 20s. 266 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:16,240 There's a relationship towards animals that came over to Canada before Canada became a country 267 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:23,360 during colonial times. And this country is founded on that. Now, I don't know the region 268 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:30,000 in which the high school, you said that's going to be having a slaughterhouse still be in the school? 269 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:38,320 Yes. So they don't have to kill the animal, but they get corpses 270 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:44,880 that they have to cut. Okay. So in that regards, when we think about that example, 271 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,840 that's related to that colonial crap of bringing cows over, farming, all that, because 272 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:56,640 ensuring that you have land to raise animals, treat them as objects, inflict violence upon them, 273 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,720 to do what you want with them for your own goals, man, that thing, it's a mentality that's lasted 274 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,520 since then till now, and it's ingrained in Canadians throughout the country, Americans 275 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:12,320 throughout the whole world. And something like farming animals is seen as benign, normal, 276 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:18,640 harmless, but not just those more neutral terms, but positive bond building, all these, insert 277 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:26,480 whatever positive adjective you want. And it's honestly pretty horrific because when you do 278 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:33,120 look at the literature about what abattoir workers go through, it's messed up. Abattoir workers have 279 00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:37,280 some of the highest turnover rates and you don't need much science to back this up, even though 280 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,760 the science does back this up, but it's like, no one wants to kill animals for 40 hours a week. 281 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,600 Now you can make the argument, no one wants to do anything for 40 hours a week. The problem is 282 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,720 with things like general labor or whatever other profession, there is a way to do it 283 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,200 ethically to a certain extent. There's a way where you can have consenting individuals involved. 284 00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,640 You can have labor negotiation. You can have some semblance of justice and some kind of equilibrium 285 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:06,800 that doesn't exist in an abattoir, that doesn't exist in dairy houses or ag health, whatever you 286 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,440 want to call them. There's no way to kill an animal that doesn't want to die ethically. 287 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,160 And when you're doing that 40 hours a week, you're engaging in a lot of violent processes 288 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,800 and it causes negative consequences for everybody. So those high turnover rates, 289 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,680 they come as a result of physical injuries. Demand for meat is increasing throughout the world 290 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,840 day by day. There's more vegans than there are ever, but the world's also consuming more meat 291 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:36,400 than it ever has in human history. So industrialized meat production, people want meat more and more 292 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:41,920 and more. Even small scale farming, they have to upscale just to kind of survive. And that results 293 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:47,680 in injuries. It's impossible to do any kind of work at a constant exponential upscaling without 294 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,560 having to cut corners. And those corners often result in workers being harmed. The workers that 295 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,440 are often working in abattoirs are often people that have English as a second language, people that 296 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:03,280 have a lesser position to be able to negotiate better labor rights from, whether they're migrants, 297 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:09,200 they could be here on temporary worker permits, they could be here illegally, they could be 298 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,080 refugees, they could be a lot of things. But they're often in a lesser position to negotiate 299 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,960 better working conditions. So they're more likely to, you know, when they do get hurt, they can't 300 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,800 really do much about it. You either shut up and work or you lose a job and that means you lose a 301 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:28,160 paycheck, can't provide for your family, a whole bunch of issues there. So the high turnover rates, 302 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,040 the people that do end up sticking around are those that kind of have to, they don't really 303 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,200 have any other choice. But people do leave in significant droves because it's very, very 304 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:40,000 violent work physically. And then mentally, people have to understand that when you're working in 305 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,800 slaughterhouses, and I'd encourage everyone to read a book by Dr. Timothy Pachirut, I hope I 306 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:50,640 pronounced that name correctly, it's called Every, I believe, Eight Seconds. It's an ethnography about 307 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:58,880 slaughterhouse. And every 12 seconds, there you go. But trigger warning as well, a lot of graphic 308 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,480 stuff in that book, like make sure you're mentally in a healthy place before reading that. But 309 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:10,400 when you work with animals, you're not just working with like a pen, you're not just working with 310 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,120 a cup, you're working with a living, breathing being that's going to react with surroundings. 311 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:22,160 Animals in slaughterhouses look for compassion and protection, and they turn to workers that are 312 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,960 ultimately going to be killing them and harming them or whatnot. And workers documents saying 313 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,960 that they realize that they have to do something really messed up to this animal. And one of the 314 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,280 only ways they can do that is by mentally shutting themselves off, disrupting their natural 315 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,600 connection with that animal, breaking that bond and trying to emotionally remove themselves from 316 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:46,800 that. You can't do that for 40 hours a week without negative consequences. The reason I say that is 317 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:52,800 you see communities that have, that house slaughterhouse workers, they experience higher 318 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:58,880 rates of mental health issues, higher rates of violence, higher rates of substance abuse. 319 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,520 That doesn't mean if you work in a slaughterhouse, you're going to become a violent defender. It 320 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,760 does increase your chances though, not to become a violent offender period, but to be in a situation 321 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,320 where you're engaging in unhealthy behaviors that are not part of a pro-social lifestyle. 322 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,120 Things like substance abuse, things like having mental health issues. And then when you add to 323 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,520 the fact that you're working in a slaughterhouse, in a community in slaughterhouse, you might be in 324 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:27,440 a geographically isolated region. Those regions, usually rural, don't have the best access to health 325 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:33,200 services, mental health services, labor relation services, any kind of service. It's just a recipe 326 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,920 for disaster. You have the physical injuries that come along, but you're also engaged in some kind 327 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:45,840 of emotional warfare against yourself when you train yourself to do messed up things to animals 328 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,600 that you're going to form bonds with. It's very difficult to not form, I'm not saying you have to 329 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:55,440 go love a goat or a cow or a dog or whatever it is they are, but it's very difficult to not form 330 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,760 bonds with any animal that you're around. If someone who isn't an animal lover, they see 331 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:04,160 someone's dog being kicked or beat up, they're not going to just stand their eye and say something, 332 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,920 they'll do something about it. Well, they'll feel something. That's the thing, that feeling that 333 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,720 you're going to feel because another being is being hurt, you have to constantly tell yourself 334 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,280 that that doesn't matter. And there's a variety of different mental gymnastics, coping techniques 335 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:22,400 that people might engage in to do that. And part of those results in toxic norms of 336 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,400 what it means to be a man, what it means to be a person that provides for their family, 337 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:32,320 where a good strong man should go kill that cow, it's a rite of passage for men. We see that kind 338 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,080 of crap in the 4-H program, you see that kind of crap in that high school you probably mentioned, 339 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,400 where you might be taught it's completely fine to, now what you're doing here is you're providing 340 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:47,520 a greater good for society, you're insert whatever excuse. That's how slaughterhouse 341 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,920 messes up individuals and then eventually in larger skills. Starts off with physical injuries, 342 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:57,360 but also emotional damage that you develop really, really negative coping mechanisms to try to deal 343 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,360 with. And those coping mechanisms become proliferated throughout society until they 344 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,440 become stereotypes and norms that we think are all right. And we start viewing as just 345 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,520 benign attitudes towards animal agriculture. 346 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:18,480 Would you say that the workers of the slaughterhouses are one more victim of this industry? 347 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:26,640 Yes. And I just want a big disclaimer out there. When it comes to politics, I am so far left, 348 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:33,520 like calling me a liberal is right wing. And a lot of friend circles I'm in, advocacy groups I'm in, 349 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,280 they want to defend human rights and I'm all about that. They want to defend the worker, 350 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,880 working class rights. I'm all about that as well. You bring animals to the equation, 351 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,480 it's very easy to put them towards a side of the equation. But I think that's the 352 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:51,360 way to put them towards a side and just push them away. And I don't want to say it thankfully 353 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,600 because it's horrible that I have to even do this, but one way to kind of infiltrate groups that 354 00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:02,480 think human rights are more important than animal rights, bring up the fact that if you care about 355 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:08,160 human rights so much, why are you still okay with animal agriculture happening? Because in 356 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,880 slaughterhouses, there are no worker rights. You're not going to find any unionized slaughterhouses 357 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:19,760 in Canada. If you do, I would love to see it. I would love for me to do a study with them. 358 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:25,120 Let some academics, researchers, professionals, data evaluators, let them engage with you and your 359 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:30,240 workers. Have some open transparency. Let us study what you're actually doing, but that's not going 360 00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:35,600 to happen. And it disrupts a lot of food systems in the country, that disrupts a lot of rose-tinted 361 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:43,280 lenses of what people think animal agriculture is. And yeah, animal agriculture workers are 362 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,440 absolutely victims of this industry too, at least in slaughterhouses. But I'm going to make the 363 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:55,440 argument in less industrial practices as well because less industrial practices like homesteading, 364 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,240 whatever the term, not hobby farms or whatnot, you still have to engage in some pretty messed up 365 00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:06,960 relations with animals that you're not going to be traumatized by having a backyard egg chicken 366 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:12,320 necessarily, but you are engaging in a relationship that's a severe power imbalance. The way that 367 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:18,160 power imbalance, you kind of internalize and reproduce to the world by saying it's a benign 368 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,880 mutual thing, you're normalizing violence and you're doing a disservice to yourself and just 369 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,200 kind of society as a whole. So even small scale farming, hobby farming, whatever you want to call 370 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:34,560 it, there's still victims there. People themselves are normalizing violence. That's what it is. 371 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,960 That's why I make the argument that any way or shape or form that you're farming animals 372 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,000 or slaughtering them, you're, humans are definitely getting hurt there as well. 373 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,360 I feel like there is an argument, one more argument for veganism here. If you 374 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:59,440 are willing to do the extra mile, to walk the extra mile to get fur trade products, because 375 00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:11,200 you don't want to see farmers getting exploited in underdeveloped countries, then why would you not 376 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:23,920 boycott in industry where the workers are exploited, used and have such poor wages? 377 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:32,800 The list goes on. You made a great portrait of what it's like to work for them. So I feel like 378 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:41,920 this is one more argument for veganism, not the most convincing one. I guess it comes down to the 379 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:48,800 fundamental logic of, if you're against human exploitation, it still makes sense to be closer 380 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:54,240 towards a vegan lifestyle, reduce your consumption of meat because there's no way to have meat the 381 00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:57,920 way we have it in the world right now. There's no way to have dairy or eggs or any of that in the 382 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:06,240 world the way we have it right now without exploiting humans. I don't care what anybody 383 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:11,120 says in regards to that's a problem with capitalism or industrialization. There is no other industry 384 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:16,080 on this planet, whether it's clothing garments, producing cell phones, where the harms are going 385 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:23,760 to be as drastic and as multifaceted as they are in industrialized animal agriculture. If you want 386 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:28,000 to do something about that, being vegan, you can hate animals all you want. You can think that eating 387 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,400 animals is perfectly fine. But to do it for humans in that way, you are going to see rises in prices 388 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,880 for animal products. Put your money where your mouth is. Not your money. Put your ethics where 389 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:42,880 walk the walk, essentially. If you're for human rights, reject that kind of violence because it's 390 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:48,400 happening against humans. That will mean animal products will cost more, but that's fine. I do 391 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:55,840 want to preface that or add on that even if you find a way to make sure every slaughterhouse worker 392 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:03,840 has what's it called more labor rights, access to health care, housing, whatever it might be, 393 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,200 even in the most perfect condition, I still wouldn't advocate for that. As long as the 394 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,720 fundamental action of what's being happened to an animal and an abattoir is happening. 395 00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:18,720 It's like it's just, I'm all about workers rights. It's just there's not in an abattoir setting, 396 00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:23,360 not in a setting where the fundamental act is violence against animals. 397 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:34,240 S1 05 Why would you choose that job? I feel like for all the damage that it is going to do to your 398 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:43,360 person, the wage is not a good argument. You should be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for 399 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:51,920 all that you're risking here, but you're not. I feel like when you were talking about 400 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:57,840 slaughterhouses, I was thinking about the army, which might be a comparable line of work. 401 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:06,320 S1 05 But at least with the army, you have like a mission, you're doing this for your country. 402 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:18,720 There is a whole ethos around it, and you're supported by your fellow citizens, and there's 403 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:30,960 a history, there is kind of a nobility around it. And when you're hurt as a soldier, people say, 404 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:37,200 thank you for your sacrifice, because you have sacrificed yourself. Now, if you're hurt as a 405 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:43,360 slaughterhouse worker, nobody is going to take that attitude with you. Who is going to care? 406 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,280 S1 06 And the thing is, people can't afford to care, 407 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,960 average person can't, because if you do, that means your meat is going to cost more, your eggs 408 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:55,520 and cheese are going to cost more. So it's a very tricky issue. But I just wanted to comment on what 409 00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:00,320 you were saying about what motivates someone. It's such a complex and frustrating issue, 410 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:06,240 because I think about my heritage is Punjabi. My parents had a dairy farm in India in the middle 411 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:13,520 of the city. And growing up, it's so normalized. And that's just a cultural thing for my family. 412 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,400 S1 06 Like I joke that there's butter in my veins because of my Punjabi heritage. And I think about 413 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:26,400 a lot of Muslim communities, Pakistani Muslim communities that sometimes for certain religious 414 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:32,640 festivals, killing goats for in the name of God is seen as something perfectly valid. And it's 415 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,880 twisted and it's messed up. But like these individuals genuinely believe that they're doing 416 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,720 a service for someone, whether it's feeding the poor, pleasing God, whatever it might be. And 417 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:46,000 it just shows the insidiousness of how animal agriculture and violence towards animal is, 418 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,080 it's intertwined in every single aspect of our lives, whether it's feeding ourselves, wanting 419 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,160 to please God, wanting to do whatever it is. And, you know, this doesn't mean Islam is a bad 420 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,320 religion or anything like that. It's just because there's plenty of Muslim vegans out there that 421 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:04,880 are advocating how the interpretation of Islamic practices that result in killing animals for 422 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:10,800 certain holidays, how it's twisted and how it just doesn't logically hold in contemporary society. 423 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,960 But that's just an example of how that like is, it's just an important thing. Like these 424 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,880 individuals don't even look at animals as it being worth consideration because whether it's 425 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:24,400 tradition, whether it's their own ideals that just whatever it might be, they're holding so strong to 426 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:29,280 because they compromise that sometimes change can be scary, but like it might mean they have to do 427 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,840 various different things that each affect things like economy, affect things like their family 428 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,640 relations or whatever institutions they hold dear to their hearts for. So in regards to why someone 429 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,680 can choose to do that, like aside from like the obvious, like someone who might need a paycheck, 430 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,360 some people genuinely think they're doing something good for society, which 431 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,320 we're at a fundamental odds here. We just fundamentally disagree with that. And I'd like 432 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,600 to say we have evidence on our side, but now it comes down to like a social psychology. Like how 433 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,600 do you explain to someone? How do you engage in that kind of dialogue and explain like, yo, 434 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:06,560 what you're doing is not cool. My guy. Do you feel antagonistic toward those big industries? 435 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:16,720 Because I was recently thinking about silk, silk produce lots of milk blend plant based milk, 436 00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:25,520 and they make this amazing mozzarella cheese. It's not real cheese, you know, mock cheese, 437 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:33,680 but it's amazing. And I recently discovered that silk was owned by Danone and Danone is this big 438 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:42,080 dairy conglomerate, I think. And that made me think, yeah, I will still celebrate that. 439 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:52,160 Maybe the key to this fight is not so much to be antagonistic toward this industry, but to make it 440 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:58,960 our ally to convert it to our ideology. What do you think about that? 441 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:06,320 Man, you know how to ask some good questions because, okay, so I first want to acknowledge 442 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,640 the humanness of what you're asking, because ultimately, you know, put it in the lens of 443 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:17,280 something else. Like I think about it from like a more human history angle. I'm Canadian, 444 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:22,480 but I'm also Punjabi. My family is from India and identify as a Punjabi person as well. 445 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,640 Someone would be like, hey, what can you do to have reparations for all the violence the British 446 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,520 Empire inflicted upon you? Would you take it? And a party wants to say yes, but like, 447 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,800 to do that in a contemporary world means a lot of wealth from places like England is going to have 448 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,640 to go to India, which aside from all the politics and logistics of that, that's going to actually 449 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:45,840 do anything. It's like, it might end up harming a lot of people as well. And in that same regard, 450 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,320 a party wants to say any of you that work in animal testing, that work in dairy production, 451 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:57,520 animal agriculture production, you have lost the right to have any say in what happens next. 452 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:03,200 Like in this new world that I want to build, it sounds so like a cult, in a world that I want to 453 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,840 build where there's no violence against animals or that it's to the least possible amount, because 454 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,560 you'll never get rid of it completely. Just like you can't get rid of crime completely. You just 455 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:15,360 try your best every day. It's like those people, those of you that are trying to get rid of it, 456 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:21,280 they're trying the most to fight against it for your economic, social, religious, psychological, 457 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:27,280 whatever reason. It's like, you don't deserve to have a voice in that. There's a part of me that 458 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:32,640 genuinely believes that. There's a part of me that feels like you, Ryan, our other vegan friends, 459 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:38,080 anyone feels like that. Because in the same way, I feel like when it comes to human violence, 460 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:43,680 you know, like I don't care what British people today have to say or feel about reparations towards 461 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,600 families that they, you know, cause genocides, I don't give two damn what they say. You don't 462 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:53,600 get to have a say in that. You're descendants of, you're benefactors of blood. But the world doesn't 463 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:58,240 work that way. And I bring myself down to another part of me that says, everyone is an imperfect 464 00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:04,880 ally. You know, when it comes to racism, sexism, classism, someone who's against brown people, 465 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:09,920 black people, I don't want to kill the person. I don't want that person, I want the person to 466 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:14,480 stop what they're doing ultimately. And I want them to, they don't have to love me, stop propagating 467 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,880 violence against me. Someone who's being sexist, I don't want them to stop hating men or hating 468 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,920 women or whomever. I just, I mean, I want them to stop doing that. But more importantly, I just want 469 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,840 the actions to stop. They have those thoughts in their head, that's fine. Just I want the actions 470 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,280 to stop. Same thing with class warfare. You know, I don't want every rich person in the world to be 471 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,600 dead. I just want them to stop engaging in activities that do messed up things. So in that same regard, 472 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:40,160 I hate saying it because it feels like I'm betraying someone, but that maybe that's just my ego. 473 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,280 You know, I want to make sure my ego is not participating too much, even though sometimes 474 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:49,040 the ego needs its place to speak. Sometimes you need to let your heart speak as well. I feel like 475 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:54,960 at times I don't want Tyson Meats, I don't want Danone or Man, insert whatever company that currently 476 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,040 messes up animals at a large scale. I don't want them to have a say in this at all. I'm also 477 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:06,080 recognizing they have a lot of power. And for now, to have better lives for animals or to participate 478 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:15,280 in these steps for what's it called, you know, a better world, they're imperfect allies. That's 479 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,640 what they are. And I do think that you place more scrutiny on them and you just hold them accountable 480 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,840 to a higher level because at the end of the day, they'll do it for profit. And if they open up 481 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,880 vegan mozzarella products or insert whatever vegan product, you're doing it right now for money and 482 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:36,000 not for ethics. And it's our jobs to hold them accountable to that. And if they turn their backs 483 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,240 tomorrow, don't be surprised. These are not your friends, they're imperfect allies. You don't have 484 00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:44,560 to be friends with your comrades necessarily, but you have to sometimes you have to acknowledge 485 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,640 that they're going to you can't kill them. You can't get rid of them. Because that's just 486 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,640 reproducing the same violence they're doing animals. I don't want that. Just recognize where they are, 487 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:57,440 where their position is towards you and see how you can get them to change. But keep that scrutiny 488 00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:58,480 always. 489 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:09,360 I like your answer. Yeah. I mean, I, I kind of agree. And I love that silk mozzarella cheese. 490 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:14,000 Thank you so much for that gift. I know what you're talking about. It's pretty good. It is. 491 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:23,920 Okay. My next question for you, Varun is, you know, this podcast, this initiative is to encourage 492 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:36,240 vegans to do more than just be vegan, to make the extra step to join the fight for animal rights in 493 00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:44,160 their own way. What would you say to people who are listening to this conversation and are thinking 494 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:52,720 of maybe following your footsteps and doing something in academia, studying this animal 495 00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:53,280 exploitation? 496 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:59,040 Hey, man, first thing I'm gonna say, hey, y'all stay the hell away from academia. That's what I'm 497 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:04,800 talking about, man. Forget academia. I'm not, I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. 498 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:10,320 I'm not. Okay. Look, if you could, first and foremost, recognize wherever you are is going to 499 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:15,520 be an uphill battle and make sure you have the resources and coping mechanisms that you need to 500 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,400 deal with said uphill battle, because it's not going to get easier. I don't care what anyone 501 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,000 says. It's getting, life's getting better to a certain extent for vegans, for animals, no, 502 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,880 not necessarily. Recognize that it's going to be an uphill battle, but then don't overthink it. 503 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,720 Don't overcomplicate it. Think about the steps you can do in your day to day lives. Not just your 504 00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:37,280 personal life because going vegan isn't enough, but think about your professions, think about your 505 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:42,480 hobbies. How can you incorporate justice for that there? You know, when I'm all about racial justice, 506 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:48,000 I like, I love to see my representation and music, TV and video games. And I asked for it whenever 507 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:52,240 I have the opportunity, whether it's filling out a survey, talking to my friends about games and 508 00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:59,280 just talking about how, oh man, it sucks that there's not enough brown people in movies. Just 509 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,760 that right there, that's, you're doing advocacy work right there. Not all advocacy work has to 510 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:08,080 be holding a picket sign somewhere or, you know, being in a court, arguing in front of a judge. 511 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,280 Advocacy is a very multifaceted thing. It happens in a variety of ways. So the same way that you 512 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,760 talk about justice for people because of their race, because of their sex, because of their class, 513 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:23,200 think about how you do that for animals. And then aside from just that, you know, think about how you, 514 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,120 your everyday jobs. This one's really, really just, you can get creative with this, you know, 515 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:34,720 let's say you're a nurse, you're working in a hospital and you don't have to be vegan, 516 00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:37,680 but maybe you want to do a bit of activism for, or maybe you are a vegan nurse, but you want to 517 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:42,960 do a bit of activism, see what you can do to get more vegan options into the hospital. It's one 518 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:50,000 small, small like piece of the puzzle, but someone's got to do it. Let's say you're working in an office, 519 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,720 you're just a data entry, you have an anti-oppression training. Ask them, so what are we 520 00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:59,840 doing to address violence against animals? I bet you a lot of money, no one's going to be asking 521 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:07,280 on a regular basis. Like, let's say you're a dog walker, man, buy some vegan treats. See if you can 522 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,960 get the dog a vegan treat. See if they like it, introduce it to the owners. Just buy dog treats 523 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:15,680 that are vegan. Offer the dog's owners that you're walking, be like, hey, your dog loves this, 524 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:20,480 heads up. You don't have to say that it's vegan. Just be like, hey, I got this treat. Just be sneaky, 525 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:26,960 be creative, put your passion into it. And just remember not all protest and not all advocacy 526 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:32,720 looks like picketing, marching, or in a courtroom. Civil rights, we still haven't achieved. 527 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,440 We haven't achieved equal rights for all genders. We're still in class warfare every single day. 528 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:42,400 And the fight against equality for us and justice for us in that regard, it just doesn't happen in 529 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,640 the streets. It doesn't happen in courtrooms only. And I don't think it just needs to be that way for 530 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:52,640 animals as well. So I hope everyone decides just be more active when it comes to that. Be political, 531 00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:58,800 vote when you can. Think about in your day to day lives. Consume more vegan content. Just consume 532 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:05,280 more content that is a bit more considerate of animal rights because there's not going to be a 533 00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:10,000 lot of it. I'm not saying everyone go watch Dominion or Forks Over Knives or whatever documentary, 534 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,480 but if there's a character that you like because they happen to be vegan, talk about things like 535 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:19,920 that. These are important things. As a kid growing up, every time I saw someone brown on TV, I'd talk 536 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:24,960 about them quite a bit. I had my favorite TV show, Avatar Lost Airbender. I love that television show. 537 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:31,920 But that's my show. That's my show, man. I love you, Ryan. The look on your face, that's your show, 538 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:36,400 too. Hey, you know how it is. I got to keep it real when it comes to that. I'm not saying everyone 539 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:41,840 has to go watch these certain shows or whatnot, but I was bringing that up because as a kid, 540 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:47,840 it was lovely to see a culture like that. It wasn't exactly all from India, China, Japan, 541 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:52,560 whatever. There were different parts of different worlds that were being introduced there. There 542 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:59,520 was one term, Agni Kai. Agni is a word in Hindi. It means fire. That got me hooked. I talked about 543 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,840 the show so much. In that same show, Ang, he says he's a vegetarian, but I personally believe he 544 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,840 should be vegan because I'm just based on his logic. That's a whole different conversation. 545 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:13,040 But what I'm saying is find these small pockets of things that are important to you because you're 546 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,400 already most likely going to be doing it in your life, whether it comes to other things, 547 00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:25,120 just include animals. It's not that complicated. So Agni Kai, I think it's that fight with- 548 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:32,400 Like a fire duel. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I was thinking about Avatar Lost Airbender because he was 549 00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:41,440 vegetarian. I remember being a kid. I found it so awesome that he was vegetarian and that he cared 550 00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:49,120 for animals because I was always naturally attracted to that. Watching that, talking about 551 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:54,320 that, it's activism. When you watched as a kid, I watched Teen Titans, a character named Beast Boy. 552 00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:59,200 He was also vegetarian. Not the same as vegan, but it was as close as it got when I was a kid. 553 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:04,800 Talked about tofu. I ate tofu as a kid, culturally. I talked about it with my friends. I talked about 554 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:10,560 people. That's just one example of how you can engage in that. There's so many more avenues, 555 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:15,600 some of the live music you listen to, regular music you listen to. Find ways you can integrate 556 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:20,560 animals into that. Obviously, people make better choices about who you support. Don't be supporting 557 00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:27,680 people that are actively promoting violence against animals. Don't be critical of what you 558 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:34,640 engage, but have fun with it. Our kids are going to have kids. There's still going to be a lot of 559 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:40,240 violence against animals. Let's try our best and let's try to have fun with it while we're here. 560 00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:49,040 Let's be creative with it. That was my next question. Do you think that we will witness 561 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:58,480 some amazing positive change in our lifetime, or do you think that it will take a few more generations 562 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:06,640 for that? I hate this question because when I look to evidence around me, humanity can take 563 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:16,320 a thousand steps forwards, but then we'll take 999 steps backwards. There's so much progress 564 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:21,040 in civil rights, human rights, environmental rights, all these things, but there's still so 565 00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,960 many issues that are wrong with the world as well. I think about the racism still rampant in our 566 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:29,840 world. I think about the discrimination women face. I think about the messed up things we still do 567 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:36,240 to the land and how people still don't believe in climate change. I think with time and ever-belief, 568 00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:41,040 things should get better, but the problem is we don't have that much time. This isn't like some 569 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:47,440 kind of doom scenario. We live in a planet with finite resources and sitting here in Canada, 570 00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:51,440 we're going to be fine. We might just face more extreme weather. There's other parts of the world 571 00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:56,480 that people are going to die. People are going to lose their homes. Animal agriculture is a part of 572 00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,160 that problem. The violence against animals, the way we treat animals is a part of that problem. 573 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:07,600 I genuinely believe that humans will find a way to kill themselves with our behavior. I genuinely 574 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:13,840 feel that way, but here's my appeal why we still have to give a shit and still be vegan, be anti-racist, 575 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:19,360 be anti-sexist, whatever it is. Man, you can't live life knowing that you can do the right thing and 576 00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,720 you choose not to do it. I'm not going to go outside and just kick a kid if I see the kid 577 00:56:22,720 --> 00:56:26,960 because I feel like it. I'm not going to just let someone get away with saying a racial slur to 578 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,640 someone if I go for a walk outside. Why would I do that for animals? Even if you think the world's 579 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:35,920 going to end and we're all doomed, do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. We can't 580 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:41,920 live with ourselves any other way. To answer the question, I don't think things will be better. I 581 00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:45,920 think we're going to kill ourselves off as a species before that, but I still will do the 582 00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:53,760 right thing till my last day because I might as well. Well, I'm more positive than you. I'm more 583 00:56:53,760 --> 00:57:04,240 optimistic. God bless. Yeah, I think that just talking with vegans who became vegan in the 1980s 584 00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:14,080 and sharing with me their experience of what it was like and then reflecting on how we are today 585 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:22,160 and how veganism is accepted and all the progress that we have made in such a short time. 586 00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:32,800 I just, I am optimistic. I think that we will see some drastic positive change in our lifetime 587 00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:39,440 and I want you to hold onto that because when you hold onto that, it might be more likely that people 588 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:44,160 like me find some solace in that. And if there's ever a chance for me to be more optimistic about 589 00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:53,200 this whole situation, it's only because brothers like you keep that hope alive. And I genuinely 590 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:58,240 hope you and myself as well, we try our best to enjoy the roses along the way, find joy where we 591 00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:04,720 can, even though we recognize all the messed up things about the world. But I just answered that 592 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:10,000 from a real honest perspective, but I would like to be where you are at and where other people are 593 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:16,640 at, where you have a bit of that hope because it's honestly nicer to hope than not. You need to talk 594 00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:23,040 with older vegans. Send them my way, man. There's not too many of those out in Brompton. 595 00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:30,160 Okay. So Varun, did you have something more to add before we stop this conversation? 596 00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:37,440 Just anyone listening, don't take my word for anything. All right. I'm not a full fledged, 597 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,880 I haven't completed my PhD yet. And if you think anything I'm saying is full of crap, 598 00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:45,920 go verify it for yourselves. All right. There's a lot of literature out there. I believe I sent 599 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:50,560 Ryan some literature to post last time and if he has access to it as well, but anything, 600 00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:55,440 any claim I've made, man, go Google it, chat GPT at yourself to see whether it's true. 601 00:58:55,440 --> 00:59:01,680 All right. And I wish all you the best. You as well. I hope you got some self care planned 602 00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:05,360 after today. I got my self care plan. I'm going to take the dog out in the back, listen to some 603 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:14,000 metal, just enjoy the weather. Nice. So thank you again, Varun for having been a guest on this 604 00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:19,520 podcast. Thank you so much for this pleasant conversation and thank you for the great work 605 00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:27,280 you're doing against all odds. It is truly, you have my respect. I love you as mom, my brother. 606 00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,800 You're doing amazing work too. I don't ever want you to forget that. All right. But you have an 607 00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:36,160 amazing night as well. Thank you for having me. Thank you everyone for listening. Varun was kind 608 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:42,160 enough to provide me with a few references from the key scholars studying slaughterhouses and 609 00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:49,200 slaughterhouse workers, like Dr. Amy Fitzgerald, who wrote a social history of the slaughterhouse 610 00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:57,360 from inception to contemporary implications, or Dr. Arnold Arluke, who wrote the touching, 611 00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:05,760 managing emotions in an animal shelter. So visit the description below and discover their great work. 612 01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:12,960 As always, please tell your friends about the show and why you love it so much. Let's inspire 613 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:19,920 more people to take action. If you're listening to this on Apple podcasts, please leave me a 614 01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:27,760 five stars review. Finally, you can always follow me on Instagram at vegan report podcast. 615 01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:42,960 Thank you again for listening. Take care and see you next Tuesday for a new episode.