1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,800 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report. 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:10,440 If you're vegan for ethical reasons and you care to do more for animal rights but you're 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,800 not sure where to start, then this podcast is for you. 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:20,700 Every week, fall in love with passionate, thought-provoking and inspiring animal rights 5 00:00:20,700 --> 00:00:27,760 leaders who will help you find your voice, your own special contribution to the animal 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:29,080 rights movement. 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,520 However small or big it is. 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:38,320 For those of you who don't know, last week's episode and today's episode are both on the 9 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:44,120 topic of Vigaphobia and they have both been produced in partnership with the New York 10 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,880 City chapter of the National Lawyers Guild. 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,960 They are organizing a webinar on Tuesday, October 17. 12 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:59,280 It is called Expanding Vegan Rights and it will feature vegans from all over the world 13 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:04,600 who were the victim of discrimination and who decided to fight back. 14 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:10,680 For the very first time ever, they will meet each other and share stories of what they 15 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,240 went through. 16 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:18,120 I invite all of you to show your support by registering to the webinar. 17 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:24,000 Follow the link in the description and don't miss out on that amazing conversation. 18 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:30,600 In last week's episode, I had on Tamara, the organizer of the webinar, this was one of 19 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:36,860 our most listened conversation so if you haven't, make sure to check it out. 20 00:01:36,860 --> 00:01:43,600 But today we are having an exclusive one-on-one conversation with Astrid Prevot, one of the 21 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,000 webinar's guests. 22 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,760 Astrid is a French citizen and ethical vegan. 23 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:57,080 As someone who has battled bulimia and as a vegan, she has the noble aspiration of becoming 24 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:04,360 a board certified dietitian to help people who are struggling with their eating habits. 25 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:10,880 However, she recently encountered discrimination in the context of her studies, threatening 26 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,320 the accomplishment of her dream. 27 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:20,360 But she is fighting back in a lawsuit that could forever change a French board of dietitians 28 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:26,320 which is deeply prejudiced against plant-based diets. 29 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,680 So hi Astrid, welcome to the podcast. 30 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,360 Thank you so much for being here. 31 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,200 Hi Ryan, thank you very much for having me. 32 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:41,920 So Astrid, my first question for you is why did you decide to be vocal about your fight 33 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:46,440 in this podcast and in the upcoming webinar? 34 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:53,000 Well, I decided to be vocal about my fight because I think it's very important for other 35 00:02:53,000 --> 00:03:00,920 vegans to realize that we can fight for our rights and also that our rights defend animal 36 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:01,920 rights. 37 00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:02,920 It's all linked. 38 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:07,680 So I think it's very important not to just let it go. 39 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:18,200 I'm wondering, do you think that discrimination against vegans is just one more face, one 40 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:24,400 more mask of animal exploitation that it's not really about discriminating against vegans, 41 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:32,760 it's about continuing that exploitation that you're just a collateral victim of this big 42 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:34,520 animal exploitation? 43 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:41,040 Well, I don't really know about it, but what I know is that discrimination against vegans 44 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:47,960 really prevents people from becoming vegans because people are afraid to be discriminated 45 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,240 against. 46 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:55,800 Some become vegan and then they quit veganism because of the social injustice and because 47 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:02,320 they feel they are not accepted and they are marked and they have a hard time finding food 48 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,000 where they live. 49 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:12,560 So yeah, I think discrimination against vegans have really very concrete outcomes. 50 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:20,200 And so yeah, I think that's also why we should fight against it because the final outcome 51 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:28,080 is that it promotes animal exploitation, even if it's not direct, but still. 52 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,600 That's an amazing answer. 53 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:39,360 And before talking about how you were discriminated against, let's start by telling the story 54 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,280 of your vegan journey. 55 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:45,560 So why did you become vegan? 56 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,600 And you told me before that you were first vegetarian and then you became vegan. 57 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,960 So how did that happen? 58 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,680 Yes, right, I was first vegetarian. 59 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,080 Well, actually, I never liked eating animals. 60 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:07,360 I remember very clearly that when I was three years old, I perfectly understood that meat 61 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:08,880 was dead animals. 62 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:14,120 Well, I didn't understand so much the concept of death, but I understood that it was animals 63 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,040 flesh and that they had to suffer for us to get meat. 64 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:19,720 And I hated it. 65 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:24,160 But I thought that there was no other way to do. 66 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:32,080 And also during my whole childhood and teenage years, and I think even now sometimes, I really 67 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,080 wanted to fit into the mold. 68 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,000 I didn't want to be outside the box. 69 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,400 So I didn't say anything. 70 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:43,600 I didn't ask to become a vegetarian when I was a kid or a teenager. 71 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,480 I just wanted to fit in so badly. 72 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:56,840 So I just forced myself to eat animals and do as if nothing was happening. 73 00:05:56,840 --> 00:06:00,720 And well, this was a pattern for me. 74 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:05,560 I did this for to eat meat, but also for other things. 75 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:11,440 And well, my story is that during my teenage years, I became bulimic. 76 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:17,240 And actually, this was not so much because I wanted to look like the supermodels or whatever. 77 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,760 It was much more an issue of me not being myself. 78 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:28,160 And so actually, when I decided first to become a vegetarian and then later on a vegan, it 79 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:34,000 really helped me with this because it was like setting boundaries for me. 80 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:39,160 It was telling myself and telling the world that I have my boundaries. 81 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,840 I respect them, whatever you think. 82 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:47,880 These are my boundaries and I'm not going to cross them because you think otherwise. 83 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,960 So this was a very important step. 84 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:56,200 And I became a vegetarian only when I was 20 years old because at this time I traveled 85 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,240 a lot and I met, well, many people. 86 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,520 Some of them were vegetarians, some of them were vegans. 87 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,760 And I realized that this was possible. 88 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,120 So I wanted to do the same and stop eating animals. 89 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:16,680 But at this time, I was not aware at all that milk and eggs were also killing animals. 90 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,120 I just did not see the link. 91 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,040 I thought you don't kill a cow to get the milk. 92 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,080 You don't kill a chicken to get the eggs. 93 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,280 So what's the problem? 94 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:30,800 And actually it took me eight years, I think, to know about this. 95 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:37,360 It was thanks to an NGO that I learned that dairy and eggs also kill animals. 96 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:43,360 And so I never planned on stopping eating dairy and eggs. 97 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:48,560 But when I learned about this, I thought to myself, okay, so I have a choice. 98 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:54,560 Either I go this way and even though I never planned to do it, and I was even afraid that 99 00:07:54,560 --> 00:08:03,800 it would bring back some bulimia and binge eating because it would bring back the obsession 100 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:04,880 of food. 101 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:11,720 I was very afraid of this, or I thought to myself, maybe I can just do things as if I 102 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,320 didn't know, but I cannot unknow something I know. 103 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,120 So I decided to give myself a try. 104 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:24,640 I thought, okay, I'm going to try to veganize my eating habits for six months. 105 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,520 And if it works, okay, great. 106 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,360 If it didn't work, at least I tried it. 107 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:35,080 And it worked very well because I've been an ethical vegan for eight years now. 108 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:36,280 Amazing. 109 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,240 And congratulations. 110 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:46,360 Usually when people say, oh, everyone can be vegan, I think, not everyone. 111 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:51,760 I mean, there are people who have like health conditions that stop them from eating lots 112 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,040 of fibers. 113 00:08:54,040 --> 00:09:00,280 But also, there are people like you who have an eating disorder and I feel uncomfortable 114 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:05,320 preaching veganism to those people. 115 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,120 What is your take on that? 116 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:12,640 Should we talk about veganism with people who have eating disorders? 117 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:19,120 Should we be more sensitive about advocating for veganism, thinking about, oh, maybe there 118 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,320 are some people with eating disorders. 119 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:29,000 And they might want to become vegan, but they just can't because of their condition. 120 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,880 So what is your take on that? 121 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:37,040 Well, from my point of view, we shouldn't just forbid ourselves to talk about veganism 122 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,160 with these people. 123 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:46,640 But in the end, it all depends on how they are and how they take their journey. 124 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:55,680 For example, I know that if I had become vegan for, well, in the hope that I would have lost 125 00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:57,840 weight, it wouldn't have worked. 126 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,680 If it was about myself, well, I would have quit it and well, you know, it would have 127 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:03,680 been a failure. 128 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:06,360 But I didn't do it just for myself. 129 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:07,360 It was something bigger. 130 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,400 It was about a philosophy. 131 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:10,680 So that's why it worked. 132 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:19,320 But I think any change in food habits is very hard to implement, actually, whether it is 133 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:25,600 for, well, to lose weight or for ethical reasons or for the planet, you need to have a very, 134 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,680 very good why. 135 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:31,760 And so if your why is strong enough, then it's going to work. 136 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,760 I wholeheartedly agree. 137 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:39,560 I mean, I often say the health argument for veganism is kind of weak. 138 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:43,560 I prefer the ethical and philosophical one. 139 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:49,320 And I'm happy that we're on the same page on that topic. 140 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:57,760 So you did not only become vegan, you started advocating for animal rights. 141 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:05,560 And I want you to tell us about how you made that transition, because this podcast, the 142 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:13,240 goal of my podcast is actually to encourage vegans to take the extra step and to do more 143 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:14,800 for animal rights. 144 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,960 So how did that happen for you? 145 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:27,040 Well, first of all, I would say that it took me some time to go from vegan to vegan activist, 146 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:34,200 because at first I really needed to take time for myself to see how it worked for me. 147 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:39,360 And well, I'm someone who really needs time about everything. 148 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,520 And you know, I just needed not to be influenced by anyone. 149 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,680 I hated when people looked into my plate and told me like, why do you eat like this? 150 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:50,040 And what about your proteins? 151 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,280 And like, well, blah, blah, blah. 152 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:58,320 But also I needed not to be influenced by vegans or activists to tell me, oh, this is 153 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,320 very good, and you should do this, and you should do that. 154 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:07,400 I really like cut myself a little bit from the world and just tried it for myself to 155 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:13,200 see how it felt really, rather than know a lot of things. 156 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:14,680 And it took me some years. 157 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:20,360 And when I saw that it was working perfectly well for me, then I felt confident enough 158 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:29,640 to go and be an activist and share with others what I saw and what I felt for myself. 159 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,680 And so I began with diverse organizations. 160 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:36,880 First, it was very small things. 161 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,640 It was, you know, just some street actions. 162 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:48,880 And I'm, well, I'm not very much about advocating, like showing people images, like very violent 163 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,200 images and like this, because I don't like it. 164 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:52,520 I'm very sensitive to it. 165 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,880 So I cannot stand it for myself. 166 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:02,240 And I'm much more about advocating, like showing people it's possible, showing that vegan 167 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:08,280 food is good, that you can enjoy yourself, and, you know, like this, because I think 168 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,480 for me it's things that work. 169 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,360 So I share this kind of things. 170 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:20,560 And also I became like, you know, I made some chronicles like a journalist for a small web 171 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:22,360 media some years ago. 172 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:29,640 Yeah, so I worked with diverse NGOs and I volunteer in a sanctuary also in Switzerland. 173 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,200 So yeah, diverse actions. 174 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:40,680 And how did that engagement impact you in your personal life? 175 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:45,000 Did it feel good to do more for animal rights? 176 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:51,560 Or does it sometimes get, you know, tiring and you're thinking, oh, maybe I should, you 177 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:57,280 know, take some distance from my activism? 178 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:58,280 Take some distance? 179 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,080 No, never. 180 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:05,800 But actually about how it feels, I think it feels both ways, because on the one hand, 181 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:12,000 you meet a lot of people and it's very encouraging and you really build a community and learn 182 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,000 things also. 183 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,680 And this is very important. 184 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:20,560 On the other hand, you are really confronted with the fact that the world doesn't move 185 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,560 past at all. 186 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,000 And now I also work on more political subjects. 187 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:32,800 And so when you are in this world, I mean, I just have a toe in this world, but still 188 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:38,440 you really can see how sometimes hypocrite it is. 189 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,080 They you know, they say that they want to do some things and it's a lot of very beautiful 190 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,480 words, but it's only words and it's never actions. 191 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:47,480 Yeah. 192 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,960 I mean, that's politicians for you. 193 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:59,560 I want to know because you're from France, how is veganism perceived in France? 194 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,120 What is the reality of vegans in France? 195 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,640 It's complicated. 196 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,160 We are not very well perceived. 197 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:16,480 I mean, now I think most of the population think that vegans are just people who go and 198 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:24,680 and like break, break batteries or break slaughterhouses during their weekends or things like this, 199 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:30,600 or people who just eat like grass and grains and that's it. 200 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:37,560 Or some of them think that it's only about eating like fake things, fake food. 201 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,200 That's it. 202 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:46,160 But on the other hand, it brought a little bit vegetarian vegetarianism out of the box. 203 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,040 Now being vegetarian is much more acceptable than it was. 204 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:56,360 And I think this is because veganism is actually much more like not so well perceived. 205 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:01,360 Some years ago, even vegetarian, it was like you were an alien. 206 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:02,840 That's such an interesting point. 207 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,880 So because there are more people who are becoming vegan and vegan is more in the mainstream 208 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:14,480 and it's perceived as extreme, then vegetarian is more acceptable for people because they're 209 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,240 comparing it to vegan. 210 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:23,640 Now the extreme thing is being vegan and being vegetarian is okay mostly. 211 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,800 Basically people are saying, oh, at least you're not vegan. 212 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,800 You're vegetarian. 213 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:38,720 Okay, so let's get into the topic of what happened, the discrimination that you went 214 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:39,720 through. 215 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:47,480 So as I understand it, you decided to study nutrition. 216 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,680 Why did you choose that field? 217 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,920 How did you make that choice? 218 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,760 What is nutrition and passion of yours? 219 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:01,520 Well, I think given my history with food, it was like obvious. 220 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:09,320 Well, it was a call, I think, because both because of my history with bulimia and also 221 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:16,080 with my history with veganism, I really wanted to show people first that it was possible 222 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,480 to be vegan and to be healthy. 223 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:26,360 And I met quite a lot of people who maybe not wanted to become vegan, but began to question 224 00:17:26,360 --> 00:17:32,560 their food habits, but were afraid about like lacking some nutrients and like this. 225 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:37,080 So I really saw that there was something to do about this. 226 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:44,160 And also being a former bulimic, I thought, well, you know, I know that actually food 227 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,880 is much more than just like putting gas into a car. 228 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,920 It's not just energy. 229 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:51,920 It's a lot more. 230 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:57,360 It has so many psychological links to it. 231 00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:05,680 So I really wanted to talk about this and to be able to share with people. 232 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,280 First I took a certification to become a nutrient therapist. 233 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:11,280 And this was great. 234 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,240 Actually, I loved it. 235 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,880 But in France, it's not recognized like it's not official. 236 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:24,120 I still could help people like individuals that I could not work on the collective level. 237 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:30,560 And I really wanted to do this, to be able to help more people and to help change society 238 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,560 at a bigger level. 239 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,600 So I registered for the dietitian course. 240 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:42,120 This is the only diploma, the only degree that is official in France. 241 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:47,320 So yeah, that's how I came to this degree. 242 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:56,920 So I guess you got a sample of what it's like, the field of nutrition, doing your certification. 243 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:02,240 And then you decided to level up and get more serious about it and become like a board 244 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,360 certified dietitian. 245 00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:06,520 Yes, right. 246 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,120 Exactly. 247 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:17,360 And what is, because you mentioned how you wanted to talk about veganism, at least create 248 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:25,120 more resources, be an expert in the field and be of help of people who want to transition 249 00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,840 and adopt a vegan diet. 250 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:35,920 I want to know what is it like to be vegan in France and you want to try getting some 251 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,960 professional help to help organize your diet? 252 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:48,440 Are you going to find easily like a nutritionist, a dietitian, an expert to help you? 253 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,440 Or are you going to be judged? 254 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,520 Are there any prejudices? 255 00:19:54,520 --> 00:20:02,400 Well, you should really research specifically for a professional who knows about veganism, 256 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,840 because otherwise, if it's just any medical help you search, you are going to be judged 257 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:14,440 and you are going to be told that you have to eat meat, especially if it's for children, 258 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:20,840 like for example, parents who go to the doctor or to the dietitian to get advice. 259 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:27,560 If it's not someone who is well, really trained about veganism, they are always going to tell 260 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:33,480 them that the children have to eat meat and that it's a big problem if they don't and 261 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,040 they will have like a big nutrient lack. 262 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,200 So yeah, it's complicated still. 263 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,480 Wow. 264 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,280 So the baseline is it's a hostile environment. 265 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:51,840 And did you know that it was a hostile environment before getting into the field? 266 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:57,000 I knew it was a hostile environment and well, really, you know, I just wanted to get this 267 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,000 degree to be able to do what I wanted afterwards. 268 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:09,920 But what I learned after registering is that you have a class that is called like culinary 269 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,320 techniques and basically it's a cooking class. 270 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:18,520 There are some other subtleties, but still it's basically a cooking class. 271 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:24,880 And during this class, especially for the exam, you only have animal products to cook. 272 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,680 I was studying from home. 273 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,040 I was like a distance, you know, distance student. 274 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,880 Yeah, it was during COVID, I think. 275 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:35,880 Yes, right. 276 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:42,120 Well, at home I could do whatever I wanted, but still at the exam, it's a national exam. 277 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:46,720 So you are only provided with animal products. 278 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:56,120 And what's crazy is that in the text, the text low, it's not written down that you should 279 00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,440 use animal products or whatever. 280 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:06,920 They even say that the students should be able to advise people with ecological advice 281 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:13,640 and like this, so it's very, very beautiful words, but still in the practice, it's always 282 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,480 animal products. 283 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:22,440 So the problem was this particular class, this cooking class, part of your curriculum, 284 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:28,280 and there were only animal ingredients. 285 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:37,560 And I mean, is it like, did you have like a limited number of ingredients? 286 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:43,920 Because I guess for the people listening, it's like, oh, but what if you just don't use 287 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,080 the animal products? 288 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:51,880 What if you use only the vegetables or things like that? 289 00:22:51,880 --> 00:23:00,800 But actually, you have like a meal that you need to make and that meal is made up of animal 290 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:01,800 products. 291 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,760 So can you make that nuance? 292 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:10,000 Yes, well, actually, as you said, it's like you have a recipe to make. 293 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,120 Well, usually it's two recipes for the exam. 294 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:17,920 And they, well, because they only give you animal products, it's like you have a limited 295 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,880 list of ingredients, as you said. 296 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:24,120 And you cannot, obviously, you cannot bring any ingredients from your home because it's 297 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:32,520 a national exam and they only authorize you with what's directly on the exam site. 298 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:38,800 So for example, we have to cook some very traditional French dishes. 299 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:45,200 I don't know if you know about it, but we have like blanquettes that is made with beer 300 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:50,000 or bourguignon, some things like this that can be asked. 301 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,720 And so, well, these are some recipes that I can do with vegan ingredients. 302 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:55,720 I know how to do them. 303 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,840 I can cook them vegan. 304 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:04,360 But still, if you don't give me any vegan ingredients, if you only give me veal and like carrots, 305 00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:11,760 I cannot give you a blanket with a, well, a blanket, blanket with just veal. 306 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:18,960 If, yeah, I won't use veal because I'm vegan, but if it's only carrots, then it's not what's 307 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,760 expected. 308 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,120 And by the way, this class is required. 309 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:27,240 You can't pass the class and just get your degree. 310 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,800 Yeah, right. 311 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:29,800 It's compulsory. 312 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:30,800 Okay. 313 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:38,440 And I guess people would have told you, oh, but just make it, you know, make the meal. 314 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,000 You don't have to eat it. 315 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,000 Just make it. 316 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,280 You know, close your eyes, do it, and just forget about it. 317 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,200 Get your degree and do your good work in the field of veganism. 318 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,080 Why was that not an acceptable option for you? 319 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,760 Well, it was totally unacceptable. 320 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:02,760 And I actually, there are some, some vegetarian or vegan dietitians who do this and who just 321 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,800 skip it for the day. 322 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,920 But I can't, I can do this because, because of my history with food. 323 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,560 I mean, it would have meant for me crushing my boundaries down. 324 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,680 And it's like, tell me, okay, just for one day, you can, you can leave your boundaries 325 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,400 at the door and just, you know, walk on it and crush it down. 326 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:23,920 It doesn't matter. 327 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,200 And well, it matters actually. 328 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,200 Okay. 329 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,880 So what did he do then? 330 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,600 How did you react? 331 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,000 Well, obviously, it was very complicated for me. 332 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:41,720 And at first, I didn't see any, any issue to this problem. 333 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,360 So at first I quit it. 334 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:49,120 After some months, I chose to quit this degree and thought, okay, I'm going to do otherwise, 335 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:52,360 whatever, I don't know, but I'm going to do otherwise. 336 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:59,000 Then after some months more, I reflected about this and I thought, okay, this is very important 337 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,800 for me, for my career. 338 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:08,240 If I want to work with NGOs and with official institutions, I need to be a dietitian because 339 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,440 otherwise I won't be heard. 340 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,880 So I thought, okay, I'm going back to, to get this degree and to tackle it. 341 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,720 I don't know what I'm going to do about it, but I'm going to do it. 342 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:27,320 And well, to make it a little bit like easier for me, I chose to, to take first the very 343 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:34,320 scientific courses during the first year because intellectually, this is the more difficult. 344 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,720 So I thought, okay, I'm just going to tackle this part first. 345 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:43,200 And if I, if I get it, then I will be too advanced to quit again. 346 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:44,560 So that's what I did. 347 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,200 This was last year in 2022. 348 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,760 And well, when I came back to this class, I still was lost. 349 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,840 I didn't know what to do about it. 350 00:26:54,840 --> 00:27:02,640 But I thought actually that you could at least go to the jury on the day of the exam and 351 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,200 explain them what you did and why you did it. 352 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:11,360 I thought it was a little bit like during, you know, what you see on TV for the cooking, 353 00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:12,360 cooking soap shows. 354 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:13,360 MasterChef. 355 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:14,640 I don't know how you call it. 356 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:15,640 Yeah, like MasterChef. 357 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:16,640 Yes, right. 358 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:17,640 Exactly. 359 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:23,760 I thought that you, you just meet the, the examinators and present them your dishes. 360 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,720 So I thought, okay, I'm going to prepare something like something like a little bit, a little 361 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:35,000 speech to, to explain to them why there is nothing on my plate and why it's like not 362 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,840 good at all. 363 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,960 But at least I can tell them, okay, this is for the animals. 364 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:41,960 And this is my story. 365 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,600 And you know that for the, for the planet, it's not good. 366 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,600 So yeah, at least I can just express myself. 367 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:55,680 And finally I learned that this was not the case at all, that on the day of the exam, you 368 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,120 prepare your dish. 369 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:01,000 After, afterwards, you just leave it in the fridge. 370 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,960 And after you leave the room, they come and take your dish and taste it. 371 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:11,880 So this was like a big catastrophe for me because I didn't even have this platform to 372 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,240 express myself. 373 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:21,560 So finally, after some months, someone gave me the idea that actually I had this medical 374 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:27,080 condition and that I can use it and I can ask a doctor to give me a note saying that 375 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,400 I cannot cook with animal products. 376 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:31,920 So that's what I did. 377 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:40,120 And actually I went to a very understanding doctor and she gave me this, this certificate 378 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,360 saying that I should not cook with animal products. 379 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:49,400 But I don't know if it's the same in the US or in Canada, but here on the medical certificate, 380 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:55,960 the reason is not, is not written down because this is medical secrecy. 381 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,760 Like you know, if, if you give something to your boss, yeah, they should not write the 382 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,280 reason on it. 383 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,200 That's your, you know, your, your stuff. 384 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,200 Yeah. 385 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,880 And so what did they say? 386 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:16,600 I mean, you, they have the paper from your doctor saying you cannot use those ingredients. 387 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,360 You need to take that class. 388 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,160 It is required. 389 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:27,040 You program that class for your last semester of school. 390 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,800 You can't give that speech. 391 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,760 So what was their response? 392 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,680 Well, first of all, it took a very long time to get a response. 393 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:38,680 Of course. 394 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:46,800 I got this paper from the doctor late February this year, so 2023. 395 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,840 And they only responded to me in May. 396 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,880 So this was several months before they gave me an answer. 397 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,320 And first of all, they accepted. 398 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,800 So I was very happy about it. 399 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:05,160 And I even got the paper that it was okay and that I would cook this for this exam without 400 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,840 animal products. 401 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:13,840 And then 10 days later, I got a call from, well, here we call it the rector like the, 402 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:19,200 you know, the administration, the national administration who organizes the exam. 403 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:24,480 And it was a very embarrassed man who told me that they were sorry, but actually it was 404 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,840 not possible to adapt to the exam without animal products because everyone should cook 405 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,440 the same thing with the same ingredients. 406 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:39,080 And that the best they could do was provide me with a protective equipment like gloves 407 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,440 and, you know, a full equipment to protect myself from the animal products. 408 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,680 Because what I understood from this call is that they thought I was allergic. 409 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:57,320 They couldn't see any reason, any other reason why I could ask to cook without animal products. 410 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:58,320 That's just crazy. 411 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,160 I mean, they gave you a pair of gloves. 412 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,040 They were just like, yeah, we can't adapt. 413 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,040 Why? 414 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:12,080 Why is it so hard to just give you like a, like any kind of vegan recipe, like a salad 415 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,680 or I mean, it's healthy, a salad is healthy. 416 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:22,440 Why is it so hard for them to just accommodate your needs for that exam? 417 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:27,280 Well, actually, I, I wrote them back and that's what I told them. 418 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:33,360 I told them that either I could have another recipe, but even if they just provided me 419 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:40,360 with, with vegan ingredients, like, you know, some soy proteins or some, well, plant based 420 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:45,840 milk or whatever, I can cook vegan recipes like traditional French dishes, but make it 421 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:46,840 vegan. 422 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,400 There is no problem with this. 423 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,480 And what they answered me is that all the students should have the same recipe. 424 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:58,200 But actually they didn't answer about the part of me telling them that I can still cook 425 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,120 the same recipe, but with vegan ingredients. 426 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,400 But I think the why is just because it's like so far from their way of thinking it's like, 427 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,880 yeah, it's so strange to them. 428 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:17,280 Well, do you think there is a more, you know, I don't want to, to judge their intentions. 429 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,600 We don't know, you know, the real intentions. 430 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:28,280 So do you think they have like, like an animal pro animal industry agenda? 431 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:34,880 Like I'm thinking about discussion I had on episode 12 of the podcast with Dr. Heath. 432 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,200 And she's this vegan veterinarian. 433 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,360 And when she started speaking up for animal rights, she got this big backlash from her 434 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,640 colleagues and from veterinarian associations. 435 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:54,320 And she told me that the reason why lots of vegans, lots of veterinarians are not vegan 436 00:32:54,320 --> 00:33:01,880 was because in the selection process, they will reject people who are vegans from, you 437 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:07,600 know, starting a degree in veterinarian school, which is crazy. 438 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,360 And I'm thinking, maybe this is what's happening here. 439 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,880 Maybe they don't want vegans in your profession. 440 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:22,200 Maybe this is why there aren't many board set your phallic dietitians in your, in your 441 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,600 field, you know, vegan in your field. 442 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:26,680 So what do you think? 443 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,120 What is your instinct saying here? 444 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,520 Well, I think that what you say is true, but at a bigger level. 445 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:43,520 I mean, when they build the nutritional recommendations, there are the lobbies sitting at the table. 446 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,880 So yes, this is the part where they intervene. 447 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:56,160 But for example, I think that in the program, the program is built in a way that it already 448 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:01,280 discourages vegans to get into this, this degree. 449 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:07,280 And I'm the exception or it will be vegans who, and there are not many of us, but it 450 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:15,520 will be vegans who just like cook the, the, the recipe that is asked on the D day. 451 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,440 And after, after all, they do whatever they want, but still, you know, the recommendations 452 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,960 are still very anti vegans. 453 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:27,880 So I think it's not the people from the administration, the people I talked with who are anti vegans 454 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,680 or who are like paid by the lobby or whatever. 455 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,360 I think on their part, it's really ignorance. 456 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,520 It's not wanting to bother themselves and to, you know, just to do things the way they, 457 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,200 they are used to do it. 458 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:46,200 But I don't think it's, it's being anti vegan or pro lobby or whatever. 459 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,120 Yeah, it's mostly ignorance, but on a bigger, on a bigger level. 460 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:51,120 Yes, it is. 461 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:52,120 Yeah. 462 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:53,120 Yeah. 463 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,560 It's not like a nefarious plot against you. 464 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:03,080 It's just, you know, this ignorance that you're talking about that is being fed by the animal, 465 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,280 by the influence of the animal industry. 466 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:08,960 Okay. 467 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,160 So by the way, how did you feel about all of this? 468 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:19,840 Because you know, I would have felt like just so anxious. 469 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:26,200 So this is such a stressful situation because first of all, you started the degree, then 470 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:32,520 you left, then you came back, then you, you programmed that class for your last semester 471 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:41,040 and you're just, I mean, you're approaching more and more to the date of the exam. 472 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,800 And so it's like, it's a very stressful situation. 473 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:46,800 How did you feel? 474 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:53,440 How did you keep your mental health in check? 475 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,640 Well, I think I didn't keep it so much actually. 476 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,040 And yes, it was, it was very stressful. 477 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:07,280 And during the first year, even though I was not taking this, this class, well, the example, 478 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:12,960 this class at the end of the year, I still relapsed into bulimia actually, because this 479 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,760 still put a lot of stress on me because I didn't know what to do about it. 480 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:24,160 And during the second year, well, actually it was not about bulimia, but I was just unable 481 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:30,480 to study, especially this class, I was just totally unable to study if I tried to read 482 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,600 some things or listen to some things. 483 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,840 You know, every time I saw the name of an animal product, it was just like so stressful 484 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:38,840 for me. 485 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,720 And also I was very angry about it. 486 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:45,480 So at this moment, it was just like words were mingling in front of my eyes. 487 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,480 So yeah, it was a lot of stress. 488 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:49,480 Totally understandable. 489 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:55,040 And the other students, were they understanding of your situation? 490 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,440 Did you share what you were going through? 491 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,000 What was your opinion? 492 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:06,200 Well, because I was studying from distance, you know, like, yeah, distention, I was not 493 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,760 in touch with a lot of students. 494 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,760 But actually the students who were not vegan, they just didn't understand at all. 495 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:20,760 And there are some students in dietitian class who are totally anti-vegan also. 496 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:27,600 And there are some vegan students that I knew who were very supportive of me. 497 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,480 But, well, you know, for them, they just wanted to do what they were asked to on the 498 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,320 day of the exam, to secure the exam. 499 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:40,600 But still they were supportive, but not ready to like to do as I wanted to do. 500 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:46,720 At this time, I didn't know how, but just be sure that I wouldn't cook or touch animal 501 00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:49,600 product on the day of the exam. 502 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:58,480 And it's sad because I guess you had to hide the fact that you were vegan to certain teachers. 503 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:04,920 And that was just a missed opportunity to maybe ask them questions that were relevant 504 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,040 to veganism because you don't know if they're prejudiced. 505 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,040 So yeah, it's a complicated situation. 506 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:19,520 Well, as for this, as for the part about the questions, I also took another, like, degree 507 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:27,600 it's not like, well, it's not it's not official, but it's not like something you can you can 508 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,360 put on your CV or something like this. 509 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:35,720 But it was something specific about vegetarian eating, which included vegan eating as well. 510 00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:42,800 And it was a class was made by two doctors who are very like pro vegetarian, pro vegans. 511 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,040 So I had this class in 2022. 512 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:52,560 So you know, about the knowledge I needed, I could ask it on this, yeah, on this part. 513 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:59,040 So yeah, I didn't need like the regular course to give me this knowledge. 514 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,360 Nice. 515 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,680 That's great to hear. 516 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,600 And there are other countries where it is more acceptable to be vegan of vegetarian. 517 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,920 So you have resources there too, that you can access. 518 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:12,920 Okay. 519 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:20,200 So what happened next, they're suggesting you to use, you know, gloves, you're insisting 520 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:26,600 that you this is not about skin, this is not a skin condition. 521 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,880 So you still had to take the exam. 522 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,320 What happened? 523 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:39,080 So this was in late May that they told me that finally I should cook with animal products 524 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,280 like everyone else. 525 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,960 And the exam, well, my exam was on June 6. 526 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,320 So it was very, very short notice. 527 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:53,920 So at this time I was asking myself a lot of questions, but still, I thought about going 528 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,880 to justice and I told the man who phoned me from the administration that I was going 529 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,320 to bring this to justice. 530 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:08,480 I was not 100% sure myself because I feared a lot that, well, you know, it was embarrassing 531 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:15,720 for me and that I could, well, be seen like, you know, the, the bother, well, someone who 532 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:17,680 bothers everyone and like this. 533 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,080 But still I thought to do this. 534 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:28,240 And after thinking about it for some days, well, this was the good decision for me because, 535 00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:34,760 you know, I, I thought a lot about why I went to this, to this class and why I wanted to 536 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:35,760 get this degree. 537 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:40,480 And in the end, it was for the animals, it was not just about myself. 538 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:47,160 So I thought, okay, even if I need to, to wait one year more to get my degree, I'm still 539 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,240 going to do this because, well, you know, getting my degree is more about something about my 540 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:57,760 ego, but yeah, that's not the final, the finality of it. 541 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:07,080 And let's not, you know, get into the details of it, but how do you start, you know, suing 542 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:08,840 someone for something? 543 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,960 Did you have to look up for a lawyer? 544 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,520 Then you had to explain the situation. 545 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,480 What is the process that you have to go through? 546 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:28,960 Well, here, when you sue the administration, it's, it's a court, a specialist court for 547 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,640 the administration, you don't have to get a lawyer. 548 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,800 But still, you know that it will be better for you if you have a lawyer. 549 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:42,400 So I, well, I didn't really search for a lawyer at this time because I was in contact with 550 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,000 the, with one, but he's in Switzerland and I'm in France. 551 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:53,320 So the first thing I did is that I CC him with, in my emails that I sent to the administration. 552 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,120 And at first he told me, okay, I'm going to take your case. 553 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:01,160 But after all, we phoned each other and we thought, okay, so this is maybe too complicated 554 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:07,920 because even if he's, if he's specialized in international rights, it's international. 555 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,360 It's not about the French law, especially. 556 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,040 So he found a colleague in Paris who could help me. 557 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:20,280 And yeah, so that's how I found a lawyer because I knew that if it was just myself, you know, 558 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:28,080 there are very, some very specific language like low language, if you don't fit into it, 559 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:29,080 it's not so good. 560 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,600 So I wanted to take a lawyer. 561 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:36,240 Yeah, it's called, I think, legalese, the language of lawyers. 562 00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:37,240 And it's horrible. 563 00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:43,000 I start reading, you know, texts of laws and I just, I want to go to sleep. 564 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,200 It's so boring. 565 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,200 Okay. 566 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:51,120 And then what, you know, did you get that diploma? 567 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,640 Or, I don't know. 568 00:42:54,640 --> 00:43:02,240 How did they, I still, I still, I still didn't finish it because it's a, well, it's a degree 569 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:04,080 where we get the results very late. 570 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:08,720 And actually I'm still going to take one part of the exam next week. 571 00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:12,520 No, this week, actually, in two days. 572 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,880 It's about the memoir that you have to, you know, something written and then you explain 573 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,680 it and I get the results only next week. 574 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,120 So I still don't know if I got it. 575 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:29,200 And are you worried because I feel like, you know, you're suing them and they have to grade 576 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:36,240 your papers now and, you know, decide whether to give you that diploma or not. 577 00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:44,640 Are you worried that they won't be objective in their assessment of your profile, of your 578 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,440 student profile? 579 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,320 Well, I was very much worried at first. 580 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:55,680 And when I was in this, like wondering, okay, am I going to do this or not? 581 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,240 I was very much worried about this. 582 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:05,440 But what I realized since last June is that actually the examinators, I think they don't 583 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,080 know about it. 584 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,320 They don't communicate that much. 585 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:15,560 And you know, the examinators, they just come and grade you or correct your, well, what 586 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,920 you wrote, but they don't have like your whole resume. 587 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,800 So I think it's, it can be done. 588 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,040 I don't know. 589 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,040 That's good. 590 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,760 And, okay, now you're suing them. 591 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:37,600 What is going to happen if you win your case against them? 592 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:45,640 Well, what I hope is that it will become compulsory, you know, it will become, here we say jurisprudence. 593 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,280 I don't know if it's the same word. 594 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:48,280 Yeah. 595 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:49,280 I think so, yeah. 596 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:55,640 It will become jurisprudence that there should be vegan ingredients in the exams, in the cooking 597 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,680 exams for the dietitian. 598 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:03,640 I really hope so, and that's why I went to justice, because if it would have been just 599 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:08,280 for myself, I don't know if I would have bothered that much. 600 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:13,960 But it's also because I thought, okay, if nobody says anything, if, well, it will just 601 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:15,480 continue like this. 602 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:22,080 If even vegan students don't say anything and just comply on the day of the exam, no, 603 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,240 nothing will happen and nothing will change. 604 00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:32,960 And that's amazing, because you know, you're going, if this succeeds, you're going to change 605 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,480 the field of nutrition in all of France. 606 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:46,040 And students, vegan who want to get into that field won't have to go through the struggle 607 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,080 that you went through. 608 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:58,480 So yeah, it's an amazing story, because it's like if you wanted to do more for animal rights, 609 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:04,240 and often the whole team of this podcast is choose your fight, choose your way of making 610 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:05,600 a difference. 611 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,640 But you did not choose that fight. 612 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:16,760 That fight chose you, which is crazy and amazing in its own way. 613 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,240 What can we do to support your fight? 614 00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:27,520 Well, first of all, giving me a platform to talk about it is really great, because I think 615 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:34,600 that's important to take the word out and to make people realize that they have power, 616 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:35,760 that they can do things. 617 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:40,480 And that's also why I do this and I went to justice. 618 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:46,800 Because yeah, I think it's important not to just say, okay, I'm going to let this go. 619 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:53,800 And after, well, as for me, I think this is really the most important. 620 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:59,240 There is another fight that I'm supporting actually very much. 621 00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:05,040 That's also about justice for vegans and so for animals as well. 622 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,120 That is very important. 623 00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:13,600 It's an appeal that is happening at the European Court of Human Rights right now. 624 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,480 And this is based on the story of a former vegan prisoner who was a, well, who is a friend 625 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:26,640 of a friend actually, and it's his lawyer who found me my lawyer actually. 626 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:33,760 And this is a very, very big fight because it's the ECHR. 627 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:44,400 And so if he wins, it will make that European countries will be obligated to give vegan 628 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,120 options, at least in prisons. 629 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:53,240 And I hope also in hospitals and we can hope maybe one day in schools as well. 630 00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:56,440 So yeah, it will be 46 countries if he wins. 631 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,920 So this is something huge. 632 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,240 And he is leading a crowdfunding right now to pay his lawyer. 633 00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:10,440 So this is a way to help also defend the vegan rights and so animal rights as well. 634 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:11,440 Yeah. 635 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:18,680 And listeners will find a link in the description to support that crowdfunding campaign. 636 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:23,880 So what I understand from this story is that he went to prison and there were no vegan 637 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:24,880 options. 638 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:25,880 So he basically starved. 639 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,520 Yes, that's exactly it. 640 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,360 There was no vegan options. 641 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:36,600 For some days he could not eat anything because even the pasta, the rice or the vegetables 642 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,240 were cooked with dairy or with eggs. 643 00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:41,640 So for days he could not eat. 644 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,000 At first he was not given any B12 supplement. 645 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,960 It took him two months before the prison gave him some. 646 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:56,280 And at first they gave him some vegan supplement, sorry, some B12 supplement with animal products 647 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:57,280 in it. 648 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,680 But he could not even take it and it took maybe two months more before he was authorized 649 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:07,240 to get B12 supplements from his friends, bringing them, bringing it into prison. 650 00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:09,320 So yeah, this was crazy. 651 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,360 And yeah, it's a very good thing that he went to court with it. 652 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,920 It's a horrendous story. 653 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:23,360 But yeah, like you said, I'm so happy that he's fighting for the rights of vegans. 654 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:30,520 And it's good that you mentioned his story because I guess I'm sure that there are listeners 655 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:37,840 right now who went through some form of discrimination being vegan. 656 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:46,720 And maybe this is the sign for them to fight against that. 657 00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:56,280 I don't know if there is any Facebook group or any kind of group network to support vegans 658 00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:04,400 who lived through discrimination because of their dietary choices, like a support group. 659 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:09,480 So maybe this could be an initiative that a listener could start. 660 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:10,480 So yeah. 661 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:11,480 Yes, totally. 662 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,280 This would be a good idea and yet to support each other. 663 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,040 I think I'm encouraged each other to do something about it. 664 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:26,280 Yeah, well, what do you want to say to vegans who want to do more but are still on the fence 665 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:27,840 about it? 666 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:33,200 Well, I think first of all, maybe find your way to do it. 667 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,120 I mean, don't think, okay, this is the good thing to do. 668 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:42,360 Like the only way is to show people horrendous images of slaughterhouses. 669 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,480 So I should do this or this is the efficient way. 670 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:46,800 So I should do this. 671 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,040 I think first of all, begin by yourself. 672 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:54,560 Like think about what you like, what you are good at, what you want to do. 673 00:50:54,560 --> 00:51:01,840 And yeah, put this at the service of the vegan cause and of the animal cause. 674 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:06,560 So that's the way you will thrive, I think, at what you do. 675 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:12,160 And also about vegan discrimination, well, discrimination against vegans. 676 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:18,880 I think that we should always say something and maybe not being very vocal about it. 677 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:26,400 I mean, I'm not shouting everywhere like, okay, this is a big injustice and I'm so miserable 678 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:31,560 and like this, but still I think it's very important to say, okay, this is a no, this 679 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:36,240 is my limit and you're not going to cross it point like a period. 680 00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:38,880 Yeah, I agree with that perspective. 681 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,880 Yeah, we want more people to be vegan and to stay vegan. 682 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:51,920 And if we allow those institutions to continue, you know, marginalizing vegan, then our mission 683 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:58,000 will be harder or sometimes even impossible. 684 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:03,680 So Astrid, did you want to add something before we end this conversation? 685 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:10,920 That's a big thank you for having me on your podcast and yeah, that's really, really great. 686 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:16,200 I think that's very important to make our voices heard. 687 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:22,320 And also in some way it is to make the animals heard because, you know, I don't say so much 688 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:27,320 that they don't have a voice because actually when you are in contact with an animal, they 689 00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,880 really know how to speak with you and how to communicate with you. 690 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:39,040 But I think to other humans, it's important that we humans speak up and tell our stories 691 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:46,320 and encourage other people to follow not our path, but their own path to being more empathetic 692 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,240 and vegan because vegan is good. 693 00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:53,360 Amazing, that's a great message to end the conversation. 694 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,560 Thank you so much Astrid for having been a guest on this show. 695 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:03,760 Thank you so much for sharing this incredible story of yours and for continuing your fight 696 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,280 for animal rights. 697 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,200 You have my full admiration. 698 00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,560 So thank you very much Astrid. 699 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,520 Thank you everyone for listening. 700 00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:16,680 Let me remind you that the webinar will be happening on October 17. 701 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:21,160 There is a link in the description for registration and more details. 702 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:25,640 I want to thank the National Lawyers Guild for hosting the event. 703 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:30,760 As always, please tell your friends about the show and why you love it so much. 704 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,440 Let's inspire more people to take action. 705 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:40,200 If you are listening to this on Apple Podcasts, please leave me a 5 stars review. 706 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:47,320 Finally, you can always reach out to me on Instagram at VeganReportPodcast. 707 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,200 Thank you again for listening. 708 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:56,200 Take care and see you next Tuesday for a new episode.