1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,400 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report. 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:12,000 If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:18,880 where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:25,760 passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special 5 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:32,880 contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Today is a very 6 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:39,840 special episode because we are going to talk about discrimination against vegans. And did you know 7 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:46,240 that there was a word for that? It is called a vegaphobia and it is a very important issue to 8 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:54,320 address because a world where vegans are marginalized and excluded is a world where it is much harder to 9 00:00:54,320 --> 00:01:01,440 fight for animal rights. In order to shed more light on this problem, I'm excited to announce 10 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:08,000 a partnership with the New York City chapter of the National Lawyers Guild. You see, they are 11 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:16,560 organizing a webinar on Tuesday, October 17. It is called Expanding Vegan Rights and it will feature 12 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:23,680 vegans from all over the world who are the victim of discrimination and who decided to fight back 13 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:31,680 against this injustice. For the very first time ever, they will meet each other and share stories 14 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:38,560 of what they went through. I invite all of you to register for the webinar, follow the link in the 15 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:46,080 description and don't miss out on that amazing conversation. So this week and the next, I will 16 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:52,880 be extensively covering this topic. Next Tuesday, I will be joined for an exclusive interview with 17 00:01:52,880 --> 00:02:00,480 Astrid. Astrid is a participant of the webinar and she is in the middle of an epic legal fight 18 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:07,920 against the French Board of Dietitians. Tune in next week for more details. But this week, 19 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:13,600 I'm joined with the organizer of the event. Tamara received her master's degree from New York 20 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:19,920 University and her law degree from the University of Virginia. She has been a member of the National 21 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:26,320 Lawyers Guild, the New York City chapter for 10 years. She's a chair of the New York City Animal 22 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:33,600 Rights Comedy and a member of the Guild's Executive Comedy. Tamara has successfully represented animal 23 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:41,040 rescue groups pro bono. As an employment attorney, Tamara champions women in the workplace under Title 24 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:48,480 7, the Family and Medical Leave Act and the Age Discrimination in Employment Act. Her special focus 25 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:54,720 is sexual harassment and retaliation claims. Tamara, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so 26 00:02:54,720 --> 00:03:01,520 much for being here. Hi, thank you so much for having me, Ryan. It's a pleasure. So let me start 27 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:08,480 with this question. Why did you decide to devote your career to fighting discrimination? Well, 28 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:18,240 when I was 9, 10, 11 years old, I was the victim of a bully in school. And it wasn't just me who 29 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:23,040 was being victimized. My best friend Dawn was being victimized and my other very good friend, 30 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:31,280 Tara. So all three of us were suffering. And the bullying was not just ridicule, but it escalated 31 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:41,440 to theft and physical physical intimidation. And it just felt so horrible. It just felt awful. I 32 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:50,160 dreaded every single day as did my friends. And I decided very early on that it was not something 33 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:56,720 I wanted to tolerate and that when I grew up, I would do something about it. So I did. Amazing. 34 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:01,360 Amazing. And we're happy for that. We're not happy that you had that experience, 35 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:11,280 which I also had. It is horrible. And we don't often talk about how negatively it impacts even 36 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:18,160 adults. You know, when you grow up, you still have some of that, you know, fear or some of those 37 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:27,680 psychological hurtfulness. It still with you in some cases. Yeah. 38 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:35,840 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That just that terror that you feel every day, you know, and hating 39 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:40,880 school and hating particularly after school because you knew the bully would be waiting for you. But 40 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:48,240 in my case, I think I was lucky in a way because I watched how it impacted other people and 41 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:54,480 subsequently found out that the bully herself came from a very troubled background and a troubled 42 00:04:54,480 --> 00:05:06,480 home. And so really early on, I got a very broad picture of how violence and the threat of violence 43 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:17,040 and those kind of injustices work. It wasn't just me and it didn't it did have its own source. And 44 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,920 that source was an older brother who was a firm dealer. So this was a very troubled single parent 45 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:29,840 family. And I learned about all of that in its complexity, you know, before being a teenager. 46 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:39,920 So, yeah. And did you ever just by curiosity, did you ever receive apologies from your bully? 47 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:48,000 No, no. Years later, I saw her pushing a stroller. I said hello, she did a double take. She said 48 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:54,640 hello. And that was it. That was it. I, you know, I hope she's okay, wherever she is. 49 00:05:54,640 --> 00:06:02,560 Yes. So how did you find your way to the National Lawyers Guild, the New York City chapter? Why did 50 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:09,840 you decide to start volunteering for the organization? And what attracted you to this institution? 51 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:22,080 Wow. Well, okay. I really, I really thought that law was a wonderful tool to fight for injustice. 52 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:29,440 I had graduated from a great school, took the bar exam, passed the bar. Bar exam is a three day 53 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:36,080 examination in New York. It's just horrific. It's two days and then there's an additional ethics 54 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:43,040 section that you could take previously. But in any event, it's an enormous kind of rite of passage. 55 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,920 And having done all of that and having gotten myself six figures in debt, 56 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:56,160 I was on my way up Broadway to a Toys R Us to purchase gifts for a baby shower. And apparently 57 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:02,160 there was a protest going on to the left of me. I was unaware of the protest. I wasn't part of the 58 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:10,400 protest. I had no connection with the protest whatsoever. And suddenly there was a loud noise. 59 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:15,920 It was raining. I was carrying my umbrella. I looked to my left and I saw a white man. 60 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:22,640 I looked to my left and there was a stampede of people running at me. And I just kind of froze 61 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:29,360 in the middle of the street and I was arrested. I was arrested because the police were chasing 62 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:34,400 all of these protesters who were running away. They had apparently been given multiple warnings 63 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:39,600 to disperse. But of course I was none the wiser. I wasn't part of the protest. I was going northward. 64 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:45,680 And suddenly I found myself in a van with other people who were part of this protest. And I was 65 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,320 like, what is happening? Why am I being arrested? Who are you? What were you protesting? 66 00:07:52,960 --> 00:08:00,080 And it was the worst possible time because having put in so much time, effort, energy, 67 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:06,560 and money into getting this degree, I was now staring at a character in fitness interview, 68 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:13,200 which is sort of the last box to check before you're sworn in. So I was staring at this 69 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,440 character in fitness interview and I had just gotten arrested. I was besides myself. 70 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:28,400 And the National Lawyers Guild came in and they represented me pro bono and my case got dismissed. 71 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:39,840 And I went ahead and told my interviewer about it. And he was a little nonplussed, but I swore that 72 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:45,440 if I became a lawyer, I would turn around and volunteer for this organization that had stepped 73 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:56,080 in and helped me in this moment of crisis. And I got sworn in and I looked them up and I began to 74 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:02,720 volunteer. And my initial activities within the National Lawyers Guild were as a legal observer. 75 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:10,400 Legal observers are lawyers, law students, paralegals who go to protests as neutral 76 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:15,520 observers and they're just watching the police and how the police are handling the protests in 77 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:20,320 the crowd. Because we've seen in the past and historically whenever there are large social 78 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:26,560 justice movements that the police can be unnecessarily brutal against protesters. And so 79 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:32,320 we keep tabs on that and we call the police to account if and when that happens. 80 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,800 This is a crazy story. 81 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:39,120 You asked. 82 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:47,360 I mean, it's also an inspiring one. But what was the protest about? 83 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:54,480 Turns out that we had just started bombing a Middle Eastern state. I think it was Iraq 84 00:09:54,480 --> 00:10:01,520 under the first President Bush. And that's what they were protesting. I distinctly remember 85 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:10,400 two protesters. One was a Columbia professor of Middle Eastern art and the other was a 70-year-old 86 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:16,320 or 80-year-old woman who had somehow fallen while people were running away. And she was complaining 87 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:22,320 in the holding cell how much her knee was swelling up. She was an elderly person and the fact that she 88 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:27,600 had been arrested and was in this holding tank with the other women, we had been segregated from 89 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:35,200 the men. It was just dystopic. I mean, I had never been arrested obviously in my life and 90 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:42,800 there I was and it was just a really, I don't know, it was a bewildering experience. 91 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:52,640 So what is the National Lawyers Guild exactly? Why they got interested in your case? What is their 92 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:53,440 goal? 93 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:03,520 Oh, okay. Well, the National Lawyers Guild began in the 1930s and it began as a splinter group 94 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:09,520 from the American Bar Association. And here's why. By the 1930s, there were particular law schools 95 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:15,680 that were accepting women applicants and that were accepting people of color. So there were 96 00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:20,160 African-Americans as well as women who were going to law school and more importantly, graduating 97 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:25,520 from law school. And once graduated, they wanted to join a professional organization that was a 98 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:32,000 national professional organization. Unfortunately, there was one, the American Bar Association. But 99 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:37,280 unfortunately, the ABA, American Bar Association, in its infinite wisdom decided that women and 100 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:45,680 people of color were not qualified to join the national professional lawyers organization. 101 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:52,320 Well, within the ABA, there were progressive white men who had been lawyers who were already 102 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:57,280 members and who were saying, hey, these women are completely qualified as are these people of 103 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:03,280 color. What is going on here? And there began to be sort of an internal struggle within the American 104 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:10,080 Bar Association and the leadership would not relent and the progressives eventually split off 105 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,720 and formed the National Lawyers Guild. So that's how the guild started. And of course, the first 106 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:20,320 thing they did was embrace the applicants who were of a different gender and of a different race. 107 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:27,200 So the guild began in the late 30s. It was relatively small, but it really expanded in the 108 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:35,200 50s and 60s because in the 50s, 60s and 70s, we had large social justice movements, first the 109 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:44,240 civil rights movement and subsequently the movement against Vietnam, the anti-war movement, 110 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:51,680 the war resistors, and many, many, many protests related to both of those social justice movements. 111 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:57,440 And in the course of these protests, lawyers from the National Lawyers Guild were watching 112 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:03,440 an incredible amount of police brutality to sort of suppress the social justice movements. Why was 113 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:10,240 this happening? We had water cannons used against protesters. We had police dogs, you know, let loose 114 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:16,960 on protesters. We had people shot at Kent University. We had all kinds of, you know, 115 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:25,680 authoritarian repression in a country that prides itself on First Amendment rights. So as lawyers, 116 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:30,320 what were we going to do about this? We couldn't just sit back and watch it. Right? And that's how 117 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:36,000 legal observation began. We needed to be out there. We needed to be able to take the police, 118 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,840 you know, to account because what happens when a policeman beats the heck out of you is six or eight 119 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,400 months later, you're in front of a judge and you're saying, yeah, this is what he did. And 120 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,560 the judge is saying, did you do that? And the police officer can say, no, I didn't do that. I 121 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:56,000 never saw this man before in my life. And it's the police officer who's going to be believed, 122 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:02,400 unless there's an officer of the court who was also present and who also saw it and who has 123 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:10,160 contemporaneous notes. That's what legal observers do. So we stand back from a protest. We're not 124 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,880 part of the protest action, but we're watching and we're taking notes. And those notes at 125 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:21,760 contemporaneous to what's happening. And then, excuse me, and then if we should see police 126 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:28,480 brutality and there is a court case down the road, yeah, we can come in and testify. And we are 127 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:34,160 officers of the court. So our word is going to be taken very, very seriously by the judge. 128 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:43,200 Of course. And that's amazing. Now, the National Lawyers Guild has got, became interested in 129 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:50,560 the animal rights movement. And we're getting back to this. But first, I'm curious about, 130 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:57,360 you know, you're vegan. I'm curious about what has been your vegan journey so far. And why did you 131 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:03,360 decide to get involved in the space of animal rights? 132 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:15,920 Well, I had been involved. I don't really have a progressive vegan journey. I hated milk, 133 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:22,080 even as an infant. You know, I don't remember six months old, but there are stories how at six 134 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:29,360 months old, I was already rejecting milk and milk byproducts, you know, dairy byproducts. And my 135 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:35,760 grandparents at the time who were caring for me had no idea what to do with this infant who just 136 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:43,680 screamed and maybe I was lactose intolerant. I don't know. But I didn't give up meat until I was 137 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:51,920 18. And that was because of Peter Singer's book, Animal Liberation. So I don't really have a, you 138 00:15:51,920 --> 00:16:02,880 know, classic vegan journey. But my animal rights journey also sort of sporadic. I would go to 139 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:10,160 for a free Friday protests after Thanksgiving. I would shout at Macy's for having a first salon. 140 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:19,600 I hated the fact that animals were tortured in laboratories. So I was on the very fringe of 141 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:29,280 stop hunting to an animal cruelty. So I would go to occasional protests. But contemporaneous with 142 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:35,600 this, I had been an animal rescuer and I had started rescuing animals in imitation of my dad, 143 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:44,640 who would see an injured bird or a bird that was caught in bad weather. And he would bring the bird 144 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:51,600 home and the bird would sort of rest and recuperate in our bathroom, free flying, until the weather 145 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,800 was better or until the bird recuperated. And then we would release the bird from the bathroom 146 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:03,840 window. It would just kind of leave on its own. Obviously, some, most of these birds were pigeons. 147 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:09,920 Some were sparrows. A few starlings came through our house. If the bird was really in need of 148 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:16,880 assistance, we would find an avian vet. There were very few who would want to handle a wild bird. 149 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:24,320 But that all changed with the Wild Bird Fund. God bless them. They are on 565 Columbus Avenue and 150 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:32,400 they are a free avian hospital. Did I say they were free? They are free. So if you are in New York 151 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:40,240 and if you spot an injured bird, please take it to the Wild Bird Fund. They will treat that bird 152 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:47,040 for free and release it in Central Park. And now is an especially sensitive time for birds. Why? 153 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:53,920 Because it's the autumn migration. And thousands of them are hitting the glass of our various 154 00:17:53,920 --> 00:18:00,320 skyscrapers and are falling to the ground. And if the glass strike in the fall don't hit them, 155 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:06,960 don't kill them, please put them in a brown paper bag and bring them to the Wild Bird Fund. 156 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:17,360 Besides birds, I also rescued cats and the occasional dog. And it was when I rescued my second 157 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:28,480 dog, a pit bull that displayed all kinds of weird behavior. I ended up learning through her 158 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:35,840 about dog fighting. I had never in my wildest thought about dog, like the people did that, 159 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:45,600 but apparently they do. And then I also heard about bully bans, laws that say you can't have 160 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:56,400 a certain kind of dog. So it was in 2007 when I found Honey and could not rehome her and decided 161 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:05,120 to be her companion myself. That was when my sustained animal rights effort started. So it 162 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:16,240 had been sporadic previously. The animal rescuing was actually quite consistent, but the animal 163 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:23,520 rights was, especially the protesting was sporadic until 2007. When I found Honey and when I realized 164 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:28,080 what was happening to pit bulls especially, and this was thanks to a great friend, John Moore, 165 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:34,800 when I found that out, then I was just like, okay, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't want this. We 166 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:42,880 don't want particular breeds to be banned just because some individual dogs are aggressive. 167 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:50,160 And that was when the sustained effort started. And what do you say to vegans who want to do more, 168 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:59,120 but are on the fence or they don't really know how to engage, how to contribute? What would be 169 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:06,960 your message to those people, to those listeners? Well, I think that everyone can contribute. 170 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:12,960 You mentioned yourself that you're an introvert, but you're contributing in a way that you can, 171 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:20,880 but you're contributing in a way that you can and that is comfortable to you. There are millions of 172 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:29,280 examples of how people can get involved or get more involved if they want to. Certainly they can 173 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:35,680 listen in to our webinars. We do a free webinar bimonthly. In October, you mentioned the webinar 174 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:42,800 about vegan discrimination and how vegans are fighting back, but we deep dive different 175 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:48,400 intersections of animal rights in the law about every two months. And I mentioned that because 176 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:57,120 when vegans become aware of the wide variety of animal rights campaigns that are out there, 177 00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:06,720 then they can really hook into something that is particularly important to them. So that's what I 178 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:13,120 would say, keep exposing yourself to the wide variety of work that's happening and make sure 179 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:20,240 that the work suits your temperament and feeds your passion. Whether that's a passion for fish 180 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:28,080 or for pit bulls or for laboratory animals or circus animals, there is space for you and you 181 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:36,240 will be welcome. Keep listening to the podcast. Keep listening to this podcast. Yes. Okay. So 182 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:44,240 this is a great segue for talking about the webinar. The webinar is at the intersection 183 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:52,080 of two of your passions for fighting discrimination and fighting for animal rights. Now, 184 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,760 when was the first time you heard about vegans being discriminated against? 185 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,480 Okay. Well, I read, oh, sorry, go ahead. Yes. And what was your reaction? 186 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:17,200 Well, I read Jory Kasimichana's success story in 2020. I think it was January. I think I might 187 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:28,000 have read about it the previous month. He was in front of the tribunal and it was amazing that he 188 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:35,440 won. And I was elated that he won, but subsequently I discovered that there were some cases in America 189 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:41,520 where the vegans were not so fortunate, like Jerry Friedman's case against Kaiser Permanente. 190 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:48,960 And I also found out that there were cases that were pending. For example, Astrid's case, 191 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:55,440 Astrid Prevost's case in France and Martinez's case in Switzerland. And of course, there's Adam 192 00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:04,480 Knopf's case in Canada. So these cases are in different stages. And as a discrimination attorney, 193 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:10,880 it kind of makes sense because whenever there is a social justice movement, there's going to be 194 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:19,120 pushback. And now as vegans and vegetarians are coming to be 2%, 3% of the population in some 195 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:26,400 countries, they're 5% of the population, there is an inevitable pushback. And some of that pushback 196 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:33,920 is just out of ignorance, fear, and of strangeness. Some of that pushback might be quite deliberate 197 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:43,120 by the overwhelmingly wealthy dairy industry and meat industry who are watching 198 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:52,160 milk alternatives inch up to 7%, 8%, and 9% in various supermarkets. And so there are all of these 199 00:23:52,160 --> 00:24:00,240 sort of cases throughout Europe about whether or not you can use the name or label milk, whether or 200 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:08,960 not you can use the label butter. Who has exclusive rights to these nouns in the English language? 201 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:17,360 And those are the kinds of arguments that are being heard on an industrial level, right? Where 202 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:23,840 you have an industrial giant on the one hand fighting for a monopoly on a particular word. 203 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:31,680 Simultaneously, you have individual discrimination cases that are moving forward because vegans are 204 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:37,280 being discriminated against at work, at school, in divorce proceedings, and in the 205 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:45,520 court proceedings in detention. Well, let's give some concrete examples to listeners. 206 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:51,680 Sure. Well, all right, I'll start sort of sequentially with the US and Jerry Friedman's 207 00:24:51,680 --> 00:25:00,560 case. So Jerry Friedman was at the time a computer, he was a computer repair person for Kaiser 208 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:08,880 Permanente, which is a very large hospital chain, and he was working for a pharmaceutical company 209 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,680 repairing their computers, and they were very happy with his work, and they offered him a 210 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:22,720 full-time permanent position, which he was very happy to accept, or as happy as a vegan in a 211 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:31,760 pharmaceutical company could be. But he did accept the position, and then they told him that he must 212 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:40,080 be vaccinated and take the MMR vaccine. And Jerry said, you know, this vaccine is cultured from 213 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:50,320 chicken embryos, and I don't feel comfortable taking it. Perhaps we can keep me in the 214 00:25:50,320 --> 00:26:01,360 computer repair shop away from anyone who might be a patient and, you know, accommodate me that way. 215 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:08,240 And they said no, and they rescinded the job offer, the full-time job offer, and they stopped 216 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:16,720 using his services as a contractor. So they backpedaled quite a bit, and he was horrified, 217 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:25,280 horrified, and he took them to task on it. Jordi Casamidiana's case, about 20 years later, 218 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:32,720 18 years later, came about because he was working for League Against Cruel Sports, 219 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,320 and as an ethical vegan, he was curious as to where his pension fund was going. So 220 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,360 pension fund, investing in a pension fund became mandatory, I think, in 2015 in the UK. 221 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:52,320 So everyone at LACS had a pension fund, and he was just curious as to what he was investing in. 222 00:26:53,040 --> 00:27:00,240 He found out, much to his horror, that he was investing in tobacco, oil, and big pharma that 223 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:07,840 tested on animals. So he raised this with his managers. They appeared equally horrified. 224 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:15,200 They told him they would change the pension fund, but in fact they didn't, and despite nudging them 225 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:23,440 for over a year, they didn't. And in the course of that year, he begged them to at least stop 226 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:30,640 investing his own money so that it wasn't like his own pension was contributing to animal testing. 227 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:40,480 It turns out they didn't even do that. So he found a mechanism to change his own pension fund to 228 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:48,400 something more ethical, and he changed his own pension fund, his own monetary stream, 229 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:55,600 to something more ethical, and he told his colleagues at LACS about it, and LACS fired him. 230 00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:04,720 Astrid Prevost is an aspiring dietitian in France. To get her dietitian's license, 231 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:12,080 there was a mandatory cooking class. I don't know why there was a mandatory cooking class, 232 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:18,880 but there was. They insisted that she use animal ingredients. She requested 233 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:24,240 to be able to substitute the animal ingredients with vegan alternatives. She even got a doctor's 234 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:31,040 note. They said no, and that she would risk failing the cooking class and thereby not being 235 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:42,000 able to pursue her dietitian's degree unless she used animal products. So there are other kinds of 236 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:49,920 cases as well. There are cases in detention or in hospitals where a person in detention is not 237 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:56,400 getting vegan food despite the fact that they are quite clear about what it is they eat. 238 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:04,240 We're hoping that Representative Congressman Ro Khanna opens the webinar. We're waiting for 239 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:09,120 his staff to give us the green light and we're hoping that they will be able to give us the 240 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:15,920 green light. Congressman Khanna is very involved in making sure that American servicemen and women 241 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,440 have plant-based and vegan options in the military. 242 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,440 And the congressman of which state? 243 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,440 California. 244 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,960 So there are many, many different examples where 245 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:42,080 vegans are. I'll give you a sort of divorce example. Imagine if you will, you have two people 246 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:50,000 divorcing. One is not vegan. One is vegan. The not vegan claims that the vegan is jeopardizing 247 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,040 the health of their child and should therefore be the parent that gets custody. 248 00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:02,640 Now in some places they may or may not be laughed at because we know that it's entirely possible 249 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:09,200 to have a child that's on a vegan diet and have that child be extremely healthy. But in some 250 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:16,640 places that's quite a strong argument. And there are some places in the world where to be 251 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:23,360 is not a good argument. And so we're hoping that there will be a way to make sure that 252 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:30,720 where to be vegan is to be openly vegan is to be scared of retaliation where vegans are called 253 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:41,360 terrorists. There's a Italian politician who wants vegan parents to go to jail. Go to jail. 254 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:48,240 Vegan parents to go to jail because they're jeopardizing the health of their child. 255 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:54,000 So depending on where you are in the world, your discrimination is going to be different 256 00:30:54,000 --> 00:31:02,000 and more or less severe. When I hear about those cases, my blood starts to boil. It's just the 257 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:12,880 feeling of injustice is so great. And I want to get back to the case of Jerry and also the case of 258 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:20,480 and also the case of Jordi, who are kind of like the flagships of this whole fighting back against 259 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:31,280 discrimination because they decided to sue their employers that decided to seek justice. So what 260 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:38,720 happened in both their cases? Well, both of these cases, as you rightly point out, are in the 261 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:52,400 employment context. And in Jerry's case, he argued that his veganism, his ethical veganism, 262 00:31:52,400 --> 00:32:02,560 should be protected the way any secular but deeply held belief system should be protected. 263 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:10,560 And the American courts that tend to recognize monotheistic religions where there is a central 264 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:22,720 deity, they were uncomfortable in recognizing ethical veganism as a religion, if you will, 265 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:30,480 quotes around that word religion. The reason was because they indicated that there wasn't an 266 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:39,120 other worldly element. There didn't seem to be religious holidays. There didn't seem to be any 267 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:51,920 kind of priesthood or clergy as if those things are all necessary indicators of a deeply held 268 00:32:51,920 --> 00:33:01,040 philosophy. And of course, they're not. And examples of religions that are recognized in law, 269 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:11,440 but do not have a central invisible patriarch are Confucianism and Buddhism. Both of those are 270 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,160 recognized religions in the law. You can't discriminate against someone for being Buddhist. 271 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:21,680 And if you can't, and since you can't, why can you discriminate against someone who is an ethical 272 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:30,160 vegan? There's a case from 1965 called US versus Seeger. In that case, you had conscientious 273 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:37,760 objectors to the Vietnam War. Some of those men were, there were three, were atheists. 274 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:43,440 So there was no other worldly component. There was no clergy and there were no religious holidays. 275 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:51,280 And yet Supreme Court of the United States said, no, these people are deeply convinced 276 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:59,920 that war is an evil. Despite being atheists, what's at issue is their conviction. 277 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:11,280 And the military had to accommodate them in non-combat situations, which is the accommodation 278 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:21,040 that they, that they had requested. And if I think about the case of Jerry, it reminds me of 279 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:31,600 Jehovah's Witnesses who refuse to receive blood, I think, if I'm right, but this is, this should be 280 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:38,800 considered like, we should be considered like the Jehovah's Witnesses because they're making a 281 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,560 judgment on our beliefs. That's the thing they're saying, okay, this is a judgment on our beliefs. 282 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:52,000 This is not valid. This is not comparable to other beliefs when they should be making a judgment about 283 00:34:53,360 --> 00:35:02,880 are we truly holding on those beliefs? Do we truly, do we have convictions in those principles? 284 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:12,720 I don't know if you also have, you know, noticed that nuance or maybe I'm not sure, but I think 285 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:20,160 that nuance or maybe I'm wrong in my observation. No, no, you're absolutely right. And fortunately 286 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:28,800 in Great Britain, that was the major question. You know, the question was how deeply did Jordy 287 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:38,160 believe in ethical veganism? And he submitted over a thousand pages, I think, of evidence and 288 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:45,360 testimony that described his ethical veganism straight down to being careful about taking 289 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:51,440 public transportation because it would kill insects along the way, not eating figs because 290 00:35:51,440 --> 00:36:00,160 there's a relationship between figs and wasps, I believe. Certainly diet, but well beyond diet. 291 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:14,480 Leather of fur products, obviously down. Jordy's position is one of very deep and thoughtful 292 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:22,160 concern about every living creature. And fortunately he was able to document that concern 293 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:28,320 and to sway the tribunal in 2020. His lawyer at the time was Peter Daly. 294 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:35,440 So together they, or I should say his solicitor at the time was Peter Daly. They were successful 295 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:40,560 in a way that we in America were not or have yet to be successful. 296 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:49,600 Now this is America and you have two guests that do not come from America, Adam Knopf 297 00:36:49,600 --> 00:37:01,840 and Astrid Prevot. Now this podcast will have Astrid on as a guest next week. But in the case 298 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:10,240 of Adam, he's Canadian. So I shared that in common with him. Can you talk about his story, 299 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:14,640 what he had to face in more details maybe? 300 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:24,720 Well, unfortunately I'm rather gagged at the moment. Adam has decided that given the 301 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:31,600 sensitivity, because mind you, he had his hearing with Wade Pozianka several Tuesdays ago and they 302 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:41,040 are awaiting a decision. So Adam has carefully decided not to participate in the webinar and 303 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:50,960 instead we have a gentleman from Switzerland whose name or pseudonym is Matthias and he will be 304 00:37:50,960 --> 00:38:01,680 participating in Adam's stead. His case is related to an animal rights activist who was detained, 305 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:12,400 who was wiretapped illegally, who ended up in detention before he was convicted and that 306 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:20,640 detention lasted for 11 months, during most of which he ate bread and very few other things 307 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:31,280 because his veganism was not recognized despite multiple appeals to the prison management system. 308 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:38,400 He is being represented and his case is in Switzerland and potentially will move up to the 309 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:50,320 European Court of Justice because it is such a horrible transgression of human rights. 310 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:57,280 And I'm planning on talking with Astrid about his case because I think he's an acquaintance of... 311 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:04,960 Okay, yeah and about Adam, it's interesting because if it was not for you Tamara, 312 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:13,760 I would not have known about these different cases, these different instances of discrimination 313 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:22,720 against vegans. Why is it the case that it's not more popular even among vegan circles and 314 00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:33,280 then why is it important to talk about this? Okay, well, litigation... My experience when I look at 315 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:40,960 my clients who have gone through the litigation process, it's a challenging process. It's... 316 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,520 Even if you're completely righteous in your claim, 317 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:52,880 it's just so psychologically difficult to put that in public. 318 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:03,680 And I think that many people feel awkward about complaining. Many people 319 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:11,920 just wish the problem would go away. Many people will suffer and I deal and I have for a long time 320 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,720 with women who have experienced sexual harassment. Many women are just so embarrassed 321 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:24,720 that they don't want to talk about this, much less go to human resources and then 322 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:34,320 point fingers and take notes of various instances, dates and times and specifics. 323 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,960 They don't want to tell their boyfriend or husband because they may be concerned that 324 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:48,240 the men who love them will step in and become agitated and that it will make a bad situation worse. 325 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:59,200 Many, many vegans are trying to find alternative means of getting what they want, including 326 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:07,280 declaring themselves to be religions that they're not. Like, I'm a vegan, I'm a vegan, 327 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:12,640 like, I'm Buddhist, please accommodate my child and don't give them milk 328 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:22,320 in the nursery school or at school. Or, I'm Buddhist, my child shouldn't have to dissect a frog. 329 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:33,920 So I've heard stories of vegans doing all kinds of contortions just so that they would fit in 330 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:40,160 and make as few waves as possible. And that's why it was very, very hard to find 331 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:50,240 panelists for October 17th's webinar. And that's why the panelists who are coming forward 332 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:57,440 are exceptionally brave and really deserve to be commended because they're the ones that are 333 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:04,560 opening the doors for others. They're the ones that are taking the heat for others. Astrid is 334 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:16,000 not alone in her fight. There are silent people in Poland and Estonia, Lithuania, Belarus, Russia, 335 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:29,120 Croatia, who in hearing her story, if they don't find the courage to equally step up, then at least 336 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:37,280 they will have the sense that they are not alone. There are hundreds of people who feel like they are 337 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:50,080 alone and hated and they're afraid. There are vegans who have won their court cases, but refuse to 338 00:42:50,080 --> 00:43:01,280 speak out, refuse to be named, insist on remaining anonymous and applaud what we're doing, but cannot 339 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:09,280 raise their voice in their communities. We want to make more and more people vegan. And that way, 340 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:17,440 we want to advance the cause of animal rights and stop the exploitation of animals. Now, how can we 341 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:27,680 reach our goal if being vegan is so hard? You're punished for being vegan in society. 342 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:36,880 And so yeah, it is a big detriment to our fight for animal rights. 343 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:47,440 It's definitely a second wave, meaning the first wave is getting people to be vegan, 344 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:55,120 but there has to be some backup and some support once that happens. You can't just get people to 345 00:43:55,120 --> 00:44:05,200 transition and then, whoop, great, gone, because it's an ongoing struggle. And I have been reaching 346 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:15,360 out to vegan personalities and asking them what they think about this and can they support this 347 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:20,720 webinar and can they promote this webinar? Can they participate in this webinar from the audience? 348 00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:29,840 Because it's lovely that they've helped hundreds, if not thousands of people transition. 349 00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:37,200 But this is what some of those people are experiencing having transitioned. What do you 350 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:45,680 do now? You abandoned them. No, you have to step forward. I always hear about people transitioning 351 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:54,480 to a vegan diet, but that is not the key data here. What is the key data is how many people 352 00:44:54,480 --> 00:45:02,400 stay vegan after transitioning to veganism. And the studies we have show that not that many people, 353 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:12,480 in fact, the vast majority, leave the lifestyle. And I was talking to vegan conservatives in one 354 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:23,760 of my past episodes and they were talking about how if there was more social support around 355 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:31,520 being vegan, they would have seen more conservatives become vegan. That is the 356 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:38,800 number one thing that stops a lot of conservatives who accept the vegan arguments to become vegan. 357 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:48,240 And I think it applies to other people from other parts of the political spectrum. But 358 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:53,760 yeah, it is. I don't know. Do you want to add something about this? 359 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:59,520 Yes, Earthling Ed, if you're listening to this podcast, you have to reach out and you have to 360 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:07,120 help these people after they've transitioned. My email is Tamara underscore bettick at yahoo.com. 361 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:15,840 Let me know. The fight doesn't stop. The fight does not stop. The more vegans, 362 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:25,040 the more vegan discrimination. Yeah, very true. Very true. And the trauma, 363 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:34,080 because part of me wants to talk with some of those ex vegans and understand why they decided 364 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:42,480 to leave the lifestyle. Now, I don't know if it is my place to do so. Maybe not. But maybe someone, 365 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:51,200 you know, maybe a listener wants to take that task into their hands. Because we need to understand 366 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:58,560 what is happening and we need to understand what kind of trauma, what kind of bad experiences 367 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:07,200 those vegans went through that made them leave the lifestyle and the movement for animal rights. 368 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:13,280 Right. Right. Yeah. And I think that the rubber really hits the road with diet. 369 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:21,280 Ethical veganism is far, far broader than just diet. But I think that the most common, that the 370 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:27,840 nexus and the nucleus of that conflict really with one's family, with one's friends, with one's, 371 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:33,920 with the crumbling social circle, with the inability to fit in, with having to find new friends, 372 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:39,040 with having arguments with your significant other, all that kind of revolves around what's on your 373 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:47,520 plate. Yes. But you know, the detail that truly triggers me personally, it's the fact that many 374 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:56,320 of those ex vegans don't become vegetarian after a few months or a few years of being vegan. It's 375 00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:03,520 not like they're leaving veganism to become vegetarian. They're leaving everything behind. 376 00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:09,520 Right. And you know, when you asked me earlier, like, what was my vegan journey? And I said, 377 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:17,760 well, it's kind of scattered. I stopped eating meat. I mean, I always hated milk. So I had my 378 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:25,920 coffee black, sometimes with sugar, sometimes without. But when I stopped eating meat, I was 379 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:32,640 unaware of the term vegetarian. So when people would say, oh, you want to have a hamburger? I'd 380 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:40,000 be like, no, I'm boycotting meat. So in my head, the word was always boycotting meat, boycotting 381 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:46,080 the meat industry. So I didn't, I didn't, I was unaware of the words vegetarian. I certainly was 382 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:51,520 unaware of the word vegan. I just knew on the one hand, what I hated and did not want to put it, 383 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:57,840 you know, did not want to drink or have anything to do with. And I also understood that what was 384 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:05,360 happening behind slaughterhouse doors was something that I was not going to invest a penny in. And I 385 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:10,800 was boycotting them for as long as I needed to boycott. I mean, there was never going to be a 386 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:15,920 time that I was going to say, okay, yeah, this is fine. No, it's not all fine. It's not fine. 387 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,240 It's never going to be fine. It's never going to be fine. I don't need a label. I don't need to 388 00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:22,640 call myself anything. It's never going to be fine. 389 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:30,560 Yes. And yeah, you know, going back to my point, it might be hard to be vegan in terms of dieting, 390 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:37,680 but it is much, much, much easier to be vegetarian. So why do we not have, you know, those 391 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:44,320 ex vegans becoming just vegetarian or just, you know, saying I'm, I'm going to reduce 392 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:53,840 considerably my intake of meat, something like that. Anyway, it is, you know, doing this podcast, 393 00:49:53,840 --> 00:50:04,960 you realize how much work still has to be done in this field. So, yes. So what is your goal with 394 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:15,040 this webinar? We talked about raising awareness. So did you have other goals? Well, for starters, 395 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:20,880 one of the things that concerns me is that we don't, my opinion is that we don't really have 396 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:28,080 a umbrella animal rights movement. We have a million and one campaigns. We have a campaign 397 00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:35,040 to end this, a campaign for this purpose. We care about various different things, and then we sort 398 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:42,480 of silo ourselves into these different areas. And one of the reasons that the webinars keep 399 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:50,560 changing their subject matter so drastically, for example, the last webinar was on ventilation 400 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:58,000 shutdown in America's farms. The next webinar might be about, you know, how do we get rid of 401 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:05,200 rhinoceros horn? These are all very interconnected issues. And if we want to build a movement, 402 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:11,280 we really need to think globally, and we need to think about the various campaigns and how to 403 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:18,000 bring people together. So the overarching issue of the entire webinar series, the reason that we do 404 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:25,360 these webinars at all is to allow people to see both the diversity and to encourage people to 405 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:33,280 come together under one umbrella. And similarly, the people that will be speaking on October 17th, 406 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:41,440 they don't necessarily know each other. Jerry and Jordi just met at a podcast that I organized 407 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:51,520 with Corinne Hardglass. But there's a growing family of vegan, ethical vegan litigants. 408 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:57,840 I want those people to meet each other, have each other's email addresses, talk about how to pay 409 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:07,360 their lawyers, talk about crowdfunding strategies, talk about just talk, they need to connect with 410 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:16,000 each other. And other people need to see them connect. Vegans who are still in the shadows. 411 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:21,680 Yeah. And also, you know, the industry we're going against is well organized, it is global, 412 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:31,200 it is well funded. And they are aware of what animal rights activists are doing. And they're 413 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:40,400 doing their best to counter attack our advocacy work. And to shut us down. Yeah. And to take down 414 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:47,680 our leadership. For example, right now, the Sonoma trial with DXC, Wayne Shen wasn't even part 415 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:53,840 of the particular rescue that they're prosecuting him for. Why are they prosecuting a man who wasn't 416 00:52:53,840 --> 00:53:00,240 on the scene? Because he's a leader. And because if they take him down, and Priya, and other leaders 417 00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:07,520 of the DXC movement. And by the way, Wayne stepped away from DXC over a year ago. So he's doing 418 00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:14,480 something else now it's called Simple Heart. And they're prosecuting him, because they want to tear 419 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:23,040 down a movement, just like they did with the Stop Huntington animal cruelty. I mean, once we become 420 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:30,160 large enough, and vocal enough, there's an enormous organized opposition against us. 421 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:39,040 And by the way, the goal is not so much, you know, to destroy that industry, but to really 422 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:49,200 make it our own in a way. And by that, I mean, you know, one of my favorite mock cheese brand 423 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:56,400 is Silk. I love them. Their mozzarella, mozzarella cheese is just amazing. For me, 424 00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:06,720 mozzarella cheese is just amazing. Forget about Daya. And Silk is owned by, I think, I think they're 425 00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:17,760 called Danone, or, but they're this big dairy industry company. And I'm glad, I'm glad that 426 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:26,880 the animal industry is turning into something more plant based, oriented, and vegan friendly. 427 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:34,320 Why not let's convert them to our cause. So it doesn't have to be, you know, antagonistic. 428 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:41,520 It's more of like a show of force and an influencing campaign. Do you agree with that? 429 00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:48,880 I think it's all about money. And I think that we have a system called capitalism that makes it all 430 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:54,800 about money. So the people who are going to be successful in a system called capitalism are the 431 00:54:54,800 --> 00:55:04,080 people that make it all about money. There are ways to oppose what it is that they are doing. 432 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:10,080 And those ways are fairly secondary and tertiary, like protesting outside, 433 00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:19,680 protesting outside the slaughterhouse, like voting for politicians who are more sympathetic to animal 434 00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:24,800 rights. But ultimately what's happening behind the slaughterhouse doors is about money. And if you 435 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:33,200 could make it more expensive for them to continue as is, then to transition, they will continue as 436 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:41,680 is. For example, in this, again, this, this Sonoma trial, they have an army of attorneys 437 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:50,880 prosecuting these DXE rescuers, an army. Each of those attorneys is charging several hundred dollars 438 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:56,240 an hour, some possibly 500, some possibly 700, some possibly a thousand dollars an hour. 439 00:55:56,240 --> 00:56:07,520 It's cheaper for these particular people to pay those attorneys than it is for them to change 440 00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:18,640 their way of doing business. And once it becomes clear that their way of doing business is not 441 00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:26,640 supported by their shareholders, then they will change. So long as they are making money and so 442 00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:33,360 long as they are distributing that money and dividends, and so long as shareholders are silent 443 00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:40,240 about where their money is coming from and the exploitation that undergirds that money, they will 444 00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:50,640 continue on. It's just like a criminal enterprise. A criminal syndicate will trade drugs, illegal arms, 445 00:56:51,280 --> 00:57:00,480 tigers, sex workers, children. The commodity is just the commodity, but there's a system of 446 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:08,160 trading these items because there's a huge black market demand for all of them, whether you're a 447 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:17,600 tiger cub or a surface to air rocket. I agree. I agree. But I worry that it's going to transform 448 00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:25,280 into, you know, the tobacco industry situation where they still exist, which is crazy. After all 449 00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:33,200 that advocacy, after all the health studies out there, we still let them market their product, 450 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:38,800 put it on the shelves and do their dirty work. Well, let's learn by what they did. I mean, 451 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:46,720 look at what they did and how that's affecting the argument around climate change. What tobacco did 452 00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:57,600 in the 60s and 70s is they decided that they were going to market doubt, doubt in the medical 453 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:06,320 studies, doubt that tobacco and its additives increased the rates of cancer. There's a famous 454 00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:15,760 memo about the American tobacco industry deciding that the tobacco industry is going to market 455 00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:22,800 their product, their product, their product, their product. And they did. And they did. And 456 00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:32,800 they got alternative science. And climate change is using that same blueprint. And, you know, 457 00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:41,360 recently I found out that the tobacco industry, one of their headquarters here in Montreal, 458 00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:48,480 for their Canadian business. And I found out that they were looking for someone in the 459 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:56,240 fundraising world. And I'm a professional fundraiser. And it was interesting because 460 00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:05,440 you're looking for someone to distribute grants to small nonprofits across Quebec and Canada. 461 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:13,360 And also for that person to communicate what they're doing, you know, their good work to 462 00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:25,440 their employees. So, you know, they have that inner communication going on, which makes competition 463 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:35,920 to the messaging outside. So the employees are actually in an echo chamber. They're creating an 464 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:44,480 echo chamber around their employees, talking about tobacco as something good, look at all the great 465 00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:50,640 stuff, the positive impact we're making in the community and things like that. And I guess for 466 00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:59,360 an employee who already feels, you know, a bit maybe marginalized for being part of this industry 467 00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:09,520 that is recognized universally as being evil, prefers to believe the lies that their employers 468 01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:18,400 are telling, then confront the truth that is out there. And yeah, it goes back to something I said 469 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:27,360 in the past episode. I want to see vegan activists doing some work targeting employees of 470 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:35,840 slaughterhouses and tizen and the big, I'm not talking about the poor immigrant employees 471 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:41,920 working as meat bankers. I'm talking about the executives, you know, the people in the offices, 472 01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:51,200 who we need to reach them to break that echo chamber they're in and show, to demonstrate why 473 01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,800 we're right and they're wrong in their thinking. So yeah. 474 01:00:54,800 --> 01:01:00,960 I absolutely agree with you. And, you know, it reminds me very much about who gets caught 475 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:08,480 and who gets the grunt work. We had a webinar on elephant ivory. And for the elephant ivory webinar, 476 01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:15,680 we invited prosecutors from six different East African countries to come to the webinar and to 477 01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:22,160 talk about their prosecutorial styles and their prosecutorial methods. And of course, there was a 478 01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:28,480 lot of overlap between Tanzania and Malawi, South Africa, Uganda, Kenya. There was a lot of overlap 479 01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:38,720 because same problem, same mechanisms. However, one of the shared complaints of all of these 480 01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:47,120 prosecutors was that they were constantly finding and sentencing and convicting their own people 481 01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:57,280 who were carrying a piece of luggage, not knowing what was in it from point A to point B on their 482 01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:08,160 bicycle. And they were earning five bucks or some amount of money that was considerable to 483 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:17,600 a bicycle runner in Uganda. And they had no idea that there was a tusk in there. They just knew 484 01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:23,520 that they had to take this from point A to point B on their bicycle. That was the person who was 485 01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:30,880 getting caught. That was the person who was getting sentenced to six months, for example. 486 01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:38,720 The middle level people and certainly the people who were higher level traders, 487 01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:47,200 you never got them. Mostly because they're offshore. They're not even in Africa. They're in Asia. 488 01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:54,720 You can't reach them. So you're prosecuting your own people. You're taking fathers from their kids. 489 01:02:55,520 --> 01:03:02,480 You're sentencing them to jail time and you're never really getting the heads of these syndicates. 490 01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:12,000 I'm thinking now about the Sackler's family. I think that's their name. There was a documentary 491 01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:17,040 on that medication. I forget the name. Oxycontin? 492 01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:22,720 Oxycontin, yes. And the addictions that it created, how it destroyed so many families across 493 01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:33,440 North America in the US, of course. And now their name, the Sackler's family, is synonymous with 494 01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:40,960 that, with the harm they have made on this world. And I think that's the reason why they're 495 01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:48,320 on this world. And I want to know who are the big families behind the animal industry who are 496 01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:56,240 profiting from the exploitation of animals who have blood money. I mean, it's the definition 497 01:03:56,240 --> 01:04:05,920 of blood money. You're profiting from the death of sentient beings. So yeah, why don't we know 498 01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:13,840 their names? Well, we do in the case of the animal industry. For example, you had Crystal Heath. 499 01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:19,760 You interviewed Crystal and she will be the first to tell you that the very people who are 500 01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:31,280 extracting large figures from animal exploitation are investing a fraction of their money 501 01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:40,960 in things like conferences for veterinarians, in things like laboratories at vet schools. 502 01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:47,280 So you'll walk into a laboratory as a vet student and you'll see on the wall a plaque 503 01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:55,840 that this particular laboratory was paid for by Cargill or was paid for by XYZ laboratory. 504 01:04:55,840 --> 01:05:02,800 Yes. Charles River, right? And these are the folks who are paying for large conference halls 505 01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:11,840 where veterinarians can sort of get together and continue to support either explicitly or be 506 01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:19,520 complicit with some hideous forms of animal cruelty like ventilation shutdown in the US. 507 01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:27,040 Yeah, I think it should turn into a Sackler's family situation and hopefully maybe there will 508 01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:36,480 be a documentary produced around those people. So Tamara, before we end this conversation, 509 01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:40,880 I would like to ask you, did you have anything more to add? 510 01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,320 No, I think you were very, very thorough. 511 01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:50,880 But it was lovely chatting with you and I really appreciate your time today and your patience with 512 01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:59,200 my early morning escape artist. I'm referring now to my cat who made it his business to, you know, 513 01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:08,240 ruin my Wednesday morning. But fortunately, he's now satiated and napping, continuing to 514 01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:16,640 somewhere as cats will. Well, that's life for you. I mean, you should meet my cat. She's a demon. I 515 01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:25,520 mean, she's old and all and I love her. But oh my gosh, you need lots of patience with her. And 516 01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:31,440 her name is Misha. Misha. Excellent. Yeah. 517 01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:40,560 Yeah, she's a real princess. So Tamara, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much for having accepted 518 01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:46,400 my invitation and for all of your good work. And yeah, thank you. 519 01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:50,080 Thank you, Ryan. Thanks for having me today. Bye now. 520 01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:56,000 Thank you, everyone for listening. Let me read you a little bit about your life. 521 01:06:56,000 --> 01:07:02,080 Let me remind you that the webinar will be happening on October 17th. 522 01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:07,040 There is a link in the description for registration and more details. 523 01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:10,000 Thank you to the National Lawyers Guild for hosting the event. 524 01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:16,320 As always, please tell your friends about the show and why you love it so much. 525 01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,760 Let's inspire more people to take action. 526 01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:23,680 If you're listening to this on Apple dolls, please subscribe. 527 01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:29,360 If you're listening to this on Apple Podcasts, please leave me a good review. 528 01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:36,280 And finally, you can always reach out to me on Instagram at veganreportpodcast. 529 01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:42,280 Thank you again for listening, take care and see you next Tuesday for an exclusive interview 530 01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:54,160 with the Brave Astrid.