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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.

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If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're

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not sure where to start, then this podcast is for you.

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Every week, let yourself fall in love with passionate animal rights leaders who will

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inspire you to find your voice, your own special contribution to the animal rights movement.

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However small or big it is.

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Today, we are going to talk about veterinarians.

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And let me start by telling you a personal story.

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Weeks ago, I was a devet.

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My old cat had some health problems, so here I was for an exam.

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And as I was patiently waiting to meet the good doctor, a lady came in with her cat and

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she looked visibly upset.

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And she basically started yelling at the receptionist.

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Now here's what I understood from the situation.

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A provincial law forbidding the surgical procedure of declawing was going to take into effect

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at the end of the day.

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And this woman was dead set on declawing her cat before the deadline.

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And she was upset because no clinic could find time to welcome her as a client.

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Now I felt very uneasy about that interaction for a number of reasons.

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One of them being that it reminded me of an old question I had.

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How come vets are not vegan?

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They are the ones who understand the best animals.

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So why are they not greater allies in the cause of animal rights?

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Why are they performing cruel and unnecessary surgeries like declawing in the first place?

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To discuss this topic, I have with me Dr. Heath from the organization Our Honor.

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And Our Honor is a vegan organization which works closely with and for animal health care

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professionals.

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Let me read one of their mission statement.

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We empower and support veterinarians, veterinary students, and animal professionals who face

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bullying and retaliation for trying to create more ethical systems while working for the

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best interest of others no matter their species.

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So Dr. welcome to the podcast.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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And that's a heartbreaking story and that kind of shows the bullying that we face not

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only from our colleagues but from clients who want us to participate in animal harm.

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And that's kind of an example a lot of veterinarians and veterinarians associations use to oppose

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declaw bans.

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They say well clients will tell us that they're going to euthanize their cat who's scratching

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because, you know, they don't want a cat who will scratch their furniture or scratch themselves.

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And it's really heartbreaking because we have now decades of research showing that countries

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that have banned declawing across the world have successfully protected cats, clients,

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and veterinarians.

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And these are like old antiquated arguments.

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We should not be being bullied into committing harm against animals.

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And you know that's what we're allowing to happen.

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And it's just tragic and heartbreaking.

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Well, as we are on the topic, what is declawing?

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Because at first I believed the surgery to be about removing claws.

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And actually it's about removing the bone.

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And it's much more, you know, horrible and radical than we think.

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So can you explain what is declawing?

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Yeah, it's amputation of the first digit of the claw.

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So it's de-knuckling.

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And we've found that a lot of cats after they're declawed will resort to biting.

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You know, a lot of people say, well, I'm immunocompromised.

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I can't be scratched by my cat.

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And then they declaw their cat and then their cat bites them.

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Or they're upset that their cat is scratching their furniture, so they declaw them.

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And then the cat doesn't use the litter box after that because the pain in the claws and

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they associate the litter box and the scratching the litter box with pain.

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So they start peeing outside the litter box.

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And then as a shelter veterinarian, I saw many cats relinquished to the shelter after

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a declaw because of these effects.

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And so one of our honor campaigns is to support declaw bans as well.

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And sadly, like our biggest opponent is the veterinary medical associations who are opposing

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these declaw bans.

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Why?

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They're giving all of the old reasons that, oh, if we ban declawing, then people will

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relinquish their cats to the shelter when they scratch or if they're immunocompromised.

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One veterinary association used this sad story of this older man with a medical condition

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and his cat was playfully scratching him.

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And their only option was to either euthanize the cat or declaw the cat.

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And it's like, that is not the only option.

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And if he was to declaw the cat, then the cat starts biting him.

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And that's another huge problem that's created.

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So the answer is not to mutilate and cause harm to our patients.

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Just to look for other alternatives.

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And we always find when animal protection laws are put in place, people then value animals

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more and they're not viewed as just accessories that can be mutilated and manipulated to suit

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our needs.

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We're instilling these are individuals that need to be protected for their own and need

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their own interests protected.

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Like any other human patient in the healthcare sector.

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So I'm very curious about your journey to becoming this vegan activist.

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How did you discover veganism?

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How did you decide to become vegan?

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And how did that show itself in your vet practice?

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Well, all my life animals were my close friends, but ironically, I grew up in a rural area,

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an ag community.

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I was involved in 4-H and my neighbors raised cattle, sheep, pigs and goats for slaughter

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and raised pigs in 4-H to go to slaughter.

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So I was very familiar with that.

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But at a young age, I also got my hands on some PETA material.

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I tried going vegetarian when I was 10.

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My parents really gave me a hard time for it because I was really a small skinny kid

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anyway.

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They were really worried that I was going to be really unhealthy.

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And so I kind of went away from the dietary stuff, but I was involved.

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I was an equestrian and I was involved in a lot of horse advocacy stuff like pregnant

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mare urine, raising awareness about the PMU foals.

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And this is urine that's collected to make the drug Premarin for menopausal women.

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I was also fascinated by the hunt sobs, which are the direct action activists who will

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sabotage these fox hunts.

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And I'm like, that's great.

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Why are you doing it?

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I'm like, yeah, it's fun to ride a horse and jump over fences.

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Why are you now killing foxes?

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Like it makes no sense.

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And now I don't ride horses anymore, but I'm not necessarily opposed to it.

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I am an advocate against horse racing.

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I'm an advocate against breeding and selling horses.

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Not necessarily opposed to people rescuing horses and riding them with their best interests

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in mind, not for ego stroking and all of that.

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But that's a kind of a nuanced discussion.

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And then I really, after I kind of went to vet school, paid off my student loan debt,

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became more involved in advocacy around the California fur ban and really opening my eyes

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to animal agriculture stuff and the advocacy surrounding that and realizing, oh, veterinarians

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really need to get involved in this.

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Things are changing at a rapid pace.

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I think we're really starting to address animal agriculture in a real significant way now

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and veterinarians need to get involved in this.

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And then of course, ventilation shut down, which is the practice of sealing up barns,

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pumping in heat and steam and waiting for the animals inside to die really came to light

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during 2020 and the COVID-19 outbreak that shut down slaughterhouses.

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And that's when I realized veterinarians play a key role in addressing these issues.

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And then I faced a great deal of backlash and retaliation from the industry when they

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realized I posed a real threat to them.

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I'm very professional person.

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I haven't been involved in any crazy, radical, extreme stuff.

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I merely worked on legislation and they portrayed me as this radical activist.

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They made memes about me saying, beware, Dr. Heath means nothing good for our profession.

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They sent out emails to my veterinary colleagues in California warning them about me.

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I was kicked out of veterinary Facebook groups.

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Emails have been written about me by the industry saying I'm a militant vegan with a streak

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of zealotry.

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I was banned from attending the AVMA's Humane Ending Symposium, even though I'm an 11-year

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member of the AVMA.

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So it was crazy to realize how threatened they were by a veterinarian speaking out.

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And then I unpacked all of the reasons why the veterinary profession wasn't supportive

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of animal rights.

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And that's a whole other journey.

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Well that's the next question I had for you.

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Why are not vets the greatest allies of vegans?

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But first, about that backlash, were also your colleagues involved in your cancellation?

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Because it is a cancellation.

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People that you know, who knew that you were not this extremist that you were portrayed

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to be.

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Could you count on their support or did they just turn against you?

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It was really kind of nuts how my classmates who knew me had turned on me.

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And they knew like my intentions and my background and everything.

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But it's like a pack mentality, a group think.

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And they believed the story that was told about me that I was basically going to...

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The original thing that happened was my colleagues were reaching out to me saying, you're posting

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all of these things against animal agriculture.

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You really should shadow a livestock veterinarian.

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And I studied animal science at UC Davis.

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I'm a former 4-H-er.

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I thought, well, I know what I'm talking about, but sure, I'm down to shadow livestock vet.

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And so I posted on a veterinary Facebook group that I was looking to shadow livestock veterinarian

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to understand.

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And then they were like, look, she's posting stuff from this extremist group on my public

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Facebook page.

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And they said I was going to go undercover and secretly record people to use against

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them.

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And it's like, if I was going to go undercover, do you think I would really post publicly

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on my public Facebook page things that are so critical of animal agriculture?

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So it was just crazy, but it's amazing how the motivated reasoning and how people will

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believe and how threatened they are by it.

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So yeah.

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And it goes back to the question of why aren't veterinarians supportive of animal rights

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and veganism?

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And I want to ask why more vegans aren't becoming veterinarians.

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And it's because we don't want to see animals suffer.

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We don't want to euthanize animals.

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We don't.

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And I think a lot of us self-select against entering the profession.

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But there's active gatekeeping against veterinarians who are vegan and animal rights activists,

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because there's a producer and a research veterinarian on every veterinary admissions

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board making sure that their interests are protected.

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And the animal rights philosophy is viewed as so antithetical to veterinary medicine.

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We're taught in school that if animals were to get rights, that would mean that we could

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be sued for a lot more money than we can be sued for now.

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That would increase the cost of our malpractice insurance.

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That would increase the cost of medical care.

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So that would ultimately harm animals.

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And of course, it also threatens animal experimentation.

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Many people are still supportive of animal experimentation viewing that as beneficial

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to human beings.

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People want to ride horses.

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People want to eat meat.

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So this threatens that whole thing.

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And veterinarians are viewed as playing a key role in sustaining animal agriculture.

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So these are all the reasons.

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But they're all things that we need to dismantle and kind of deconstruct all of these belief

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systems and rebuild a food system that is more healthy and sustainable and good for

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everybody.

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And I think veterinarians will play a key role.

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But we have to kind of deconstruct the biases that we've been taught.

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Well, I'm shocked.

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I'm simply shocked.

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And I'm still thinking about the part where you said they filter out vegans from the vet

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profession.

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What?

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This is crazy.

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Why aren't we talking about this more?

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Well, I am talking about it.

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But yeah, I mean, I learned back in 2008 when I was applying for vet school, I talked to

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somebody about it and they're like, you really should keep the whole vegetarian.

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I wasn't vegan at the time.

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I was vegetarian.

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Keep that quiet.

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Just keep in mind, people may be threatened by that.

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So I kind of keep it under wraps.

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And another vet student recently told me she was outspoken about being vegan when she was

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interviewing because she's like, I want to be accepted.

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And that's the whole fitting in versus belonging thing.

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She wanted to belong where she went.

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And luckily, there's a new progressive school that opened up.

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And that's a little bit more forward thinking.

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But she said in her interview that she was vegan.

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And they argued with her.

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They're like, what about spaying and neutering?

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And she explained how spaying and neutering is consistent with veganism because it's for

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the animal's best interest to prevent overpopulation.

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And they let her in.

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But it's like, you have to know your stuff and you have to be able to communicate it

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in the right way.

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And every vet student's always reach out to me.

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The first semester of veterinary school, there's this class on welfare versus animal rights.

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And it's always like an ag person coming in explaining the difference between animal

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welfare and animal rights and how we're a profession that supports animal welfare for

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these reasons.

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I remember even in school, they said how the Humane Society of the United States isn't

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actually about animal shelters.

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It's a wealthy organization that secretly wants to give animals rights.

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And they talked about how the Harvard Animal Law Clinic and the Yale Animal Law Clinic

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was a threat to our profession in all of these ways.

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And I was skeptical at the time.

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And I was just kind of rolling my eyes.

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But I didn't have the language to fight back.

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And I'm kind of thinking, I don't know if you saw the Barbie movie.

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It's like, spoiler alert to anybody who hasn't seen it.

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But like, Penn goes back to the real world and then comes back to Barbie land and brings

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the patriarchy to Barbie land.

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And it's like the Barbies just eat it up.

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And it's like, why did the Barbies just go along with this?

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And it's like, because they were naive, they're sitting ducks, they didn't have the immunity

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to it.

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So they just ate it up.

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And that's what best students are.

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We're just like sitting ducks.

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We're not taught in how to refute those sorts of arguments that are perpetuated by animal

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ag.

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We're just kind of like indoctrinated into it.

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So you're faced with all that backlash.

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And knowing what you know, I guess there was a moment when you could have just backed away

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and just go silent and stop creating waves.

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Why did you decide to pursue your denunciation of this industry to the point of creating

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our honor?

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So why did you make that choice?

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00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,880
And where did you find the strength to make that choice?

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It was so helpful to have some veterinary colleagues who were really supportive of me

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and to have Glenn Greenwald write a story about you and have me on his show.

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And that was huge.

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And then it's like, OK, this is a real, people really care about this.

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This is a big deal.

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And then luckily had somebody give me a lot of money to start our honors.

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And sometimes all the everything, all the stars are aligning in the right direction.

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But it's like if I didn't have the support of some colleagues, if I didn't have Glenn

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Greenwald, if I didn't have somebody willing to financially back me, I wouldn't have been

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able to do it.

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And I think it's happened to a lot of people who did have to quietly go away because they

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had none of that support.

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And I don't have kids.

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I'm not married.

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I am very I'm also I have all my student loan debt paid off, which is rare for people.

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So I have a lot of privilege that and I'm like, I'm going to take advantage of all the

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privilege that I was given.

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So, you know, yeah, that makes you that makes you a powerful opponent.

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And for those of you who don't know, Glenn Greenwald is a award winning journalist.

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He's the one who break to the Snowden story, so about mass surveillance and stuff like

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that.

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So, yeah, you got the funding.

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You decide to start our honor.

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What was the first cause, the first fight that you decided to lead with your organization?

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00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:03,880
This was our advocacy around ventilation shut down and raising awareness about the mass

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00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,280
killing of animals via heat stroke.

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The American Veterinary Medical Association condones this practice in constrained circumstances.

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And we were still finding out more and more about how that came about.

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We're doing a lot of FOIA requests to discover all the conversations that were had about

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allowing this practice in the first place.

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And we're really finding that the guidelines on depopulation were really started kind of

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after the first avian influenza outbreak when veterans didn't know what to do.

294
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All of these birds are getting sick.

295
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It probably does make the most sense to try to stop the spread of the disease and stop

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00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,640
animal suffering by ending the lives of birds.

297
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But they were going about it in a haphazard way, throwing birds in wood chippers.

298
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Nobody really knew what they're doing.

299
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And so they're like, okay, good intentions.

300
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Let's figure out as veterinarians what's the best way to do this.

301
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:14,920
But I think there was some complacency of like, this is good enough.

302
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,820
And we found the National Pork Board, which is under the USDA.

303
00:21:19,820 --> 00:21:26,200
This is the pork checkoff program, the pork, the other white meat advertising campaign.

304
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:31,080
Veterinarian who was part of the Pork Board played a key role in creating the guidelines

305
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,760
on depopulation for pigs.

306
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:44,960
And so the AVMA was very defensive about the fact that we were criticizing this document.

307
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And after the realities of ventilation shut down and the footage of how horrible it was

308
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for the pigs and the pigs screaming for hours, well, this wasn't acceptable.

309
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But we also found that the reason it got in the guidelines in the first place was an industry

310
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:07,320
funded study performed at an industry funded public university.

311
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,860
The Prestige Department of Fultry Science, named after Prestige Farms, was used as the

312
00:22:12,860 --> 00:22:17,220
basis for putting this method in the guidelines.

313
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And then the USDA has a cooperative agreement with the AVMA.

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So that if methods used are listed in the guidelines, the USDA gives our taxpayer dollars,

315
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:39,600
public funds back to those producers who have kind of created the conditions that necessitate

316
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,840
the atrocity of mass killing of animals via heat stroke in the first place.

317
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,140
And it's like a really dangerous feedback loop.

318
00:22:47,140 --> 00:22:54,360
It's kind of like recently, Bill Sack, the Ag Secretary, just increased indemnity payments

319
00:22:54,360 --> 00:23:02,280
to cattle producers because of climate change, because cows are being lost in the heat of

320
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:03,960
climate change.

321
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,000
But obviously, climate change is perpetuated by cows in the first place.

322
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So we're just having this dangerous feedback loop of enabling producers to continue practices

323
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:21,560
that cause emergency situations and then necessitate the cruelest killing methods.

324
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:27,080
So that was our first advocacy efforts, and we really have gained a lot of media attention.

325
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:33,800
And I've been barred from attending the AVMA's Humane Ending Symposium, the legislative fly-in.

326
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:42,680
But it's like, okay, every time they keep pushing back, we get more media attention.

327
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,640
And now it'll be interesting to see what happens at the next conventions.

328
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,720
I have been allowed to continue to go to conventions since then.

329
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,360
I felt like at the last convention, I was treated a little bit better.

330
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So I think change is coming.

331
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,640
I think they're really realizing they are definitely in the wrong here.

332
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:06,000
Yes, that's what I want to hear because this is so dark.

333
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,320
What a dark problem.

334
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:15,280
And it just brings in me feelings of despair a bit because it's like a conspiracy.

335
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:21,220
You have the vet associations, and then you have the government and the private industry,

336
00:24:21,220 --> 00:24:28,200
and they're all talking to each other and helping each other while the animals are just

337
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,360
in the worst possible pain.

338
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:38,280
And I had a representative animal partisan, which is this organization that sues the

339
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,400
animal industry when there is proof of animal abuse.

340
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:51,240
And he was telling me how the FBI, even the FBI was in bed with the animal industry and

341
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:56,340
participating in conferences organized by the farm industry.

342
00:24:56,340 --> 00:25:03,360
So I wonder, do you feel safe about what you're doing?

343
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:10,580
Do you feel like you could be in danger from doing all of what you're doing and becoming

344
00:25:10,580 --> 00:25:13,800
the target of an institution like the FBI?

345
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:20,360
Well, I haven't done anything, even bordering on illegal.

346
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:25,080
But there have been weird things that have happened where I'm wondering if I'm being

347
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,200
surveilled.

348
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:33,080
I wonder if there's a campaign to smear me.

349
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,240
A lot of things I can't explain and can't really talk about.

350
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,120
So it is weird.

351
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:42,000
I'm lucky I live in a really secure building.

352
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:47,280
But yeah, there have been some really weird things that have happened.

353
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:48,440
I'm kind of open.

354
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,080
I'm an adventurous person.

355
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,280
I'm down for whatever plot twist they're going to throw at me.

356
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:56,280
So I don't know.

357
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:02,640
I'm just the perfect person for them to try to do whatever they want to do because I'm

358
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,280
just like, yeah, the FBI, let's do something crazy.

359
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,520
You're always scared you're going to get assassinated or something.

360
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,840
But what are you going to do?

361
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,640
The worst thing anybody could do is get you to not be able to talk.

362
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:27,360
And I'd rather them try to murder me than me feel like I can't use my voice.

363
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:28,960
Those are intimidation techniques.

364
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,720
I don't think that they will go as far as that.

365
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,360
But they want to frighten you.

366
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:35,360
Frame me for something.

367
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:36,360
Who knows?

368
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:37,360
Yeah.

369
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,560
Well, hopefully nothing happens.

370
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:47,760
And thankfully, you can think of those situations and misadventures as just another chapter

371
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,240
in the book, the bestseller book that you're going to write one day.

372
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:58,800
So yeah, let's put a positive spin to this story.

373
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:06,720
Have you stopped fighting for that horrible ventilation mass murder thing that happened?

374
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,040
Is that behind you or is it still current affair?

375
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,400
Yeah, it's still ongoing because our next threat is African swine fever.

376
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,480
Ventilation shutdown was used in the avian influenza outbreak that's died down.

377
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,800
Now African swine fever is an emerging threat.

378
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:30,480
They still don't have any plan in place to use anything better than ventilation shutdown.

379
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,840
We're getting more and more FOIA documents about the conversations around this.

380
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,160
And we'll see how it goes.

381
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,720
It's kind of out of the media right now, so nobody's really talking about it.

382
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,200
But we're still working on it, even though it's not an active news story.

383
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,760
So stay tuned for that.

384
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:57,080
And on this issue, can people do something in particular to advance that fight?

385
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:04,760
Yeah, if you want to stay involved and get in touch, go to vavsd.org.

386
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,080
That's veterinarians against ventilation shutdown.org.

387
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,760
And you can sign on to our petition.

388
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,360
Even if you're not a veterinarian, at least you'll sign on to our petition and get our

389
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:13,480
newsletters and stuff.

390
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,000
And also ourhonor.org, sign up for our newsletter there.

391
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,160
Follow us on social media to stay appraised of what's going on.

392
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,120
And we'll kind of let you know.

393
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:31,440
Every Friday we do a FOIA Friday where we kind of highlight the most, the best FOIA

394
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,840
document that we've received recently.

395
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,440
So stay tuned for that on social media too.

396
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,000
And of course, all of those links will be available in the description.

397
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,560
Another fight you're leading is against the EATS Act.

398
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,040
Now what is this about?

399
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:49,760
What is the EATS Act?

400
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,500
And why is it bad?

401
00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:56,200
This is the industry's way to overturn Proposition 12.

402
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,480
And we also supported Proposition 12.

403
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:05,200
We helped get over 400 veterinarians to sign on to an amicus brief in support of Prop 12.

404
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,640
What is Prop 12?

405
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:13,040
This is the ballot measure passed in California by 63% of California voters.

406
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,960
And it gives animals minimum cage space requirements.

407
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:25,160
So the flesh of animals and eggs of animals sold in California have to come from animals

408
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,520
who have met minimum requirements.

409
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,880
And all of the other industry groups were kind of accepted this, were fine with this,

410
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:34,880
except the pork industry.

411
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:42,880
Of course, they are literally the most ruthless, powerful, and abusive industry on the planet.

412
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,240
So of course, they fought back.

413
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,320
The National Pork Producers Council fought it all the way to the Supreme Court.

414
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,400
It was a huge battle in the Supreme Court.

415
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,560
Amicus briefs back and forth.

416
00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,640
We helped write one and we helped get a bunch of veterinarians to sign on to counter the

417
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:06,160
American Association of Swine Veterinarians amicus brief that opposed Prop 12.

418
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,440
They wanted to keep pigs confined to gestation crates.

419
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,880
And these are crates.

420
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,440
Other pigs are housed in for 114 days of their pregnancy, two and a half foot by seven and

421
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,120
a half foot stalls where they're unable to turn around.

422
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,120
And the pigs are kept in these, then they go to ferroin crates, and then they go back

423
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,440
to gestation crates.

424
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,240
And that's how they spend their whole lives.

425
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:34,560
And they're cold usually after four pregnancies, but sometimes they go through as many as 14

426
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,820
pregnancies, you know, just being confined in this way.

427
00:30:38,820 --> 00:30:41,680
It's absolutely cruel and horrifying.

428
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:49,560
And so Prop 12 is one way to stop that because it requires that the flesh of pigs sold in

429
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:55,840
California come from mothers who were given at least 24 square feet.

430
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:56,840
But yeah, it was fought.

431
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,480
And luckily the Supreme Court upheld Prop 12.

432
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:09,200
But now the EATS Act is a way to overturn that, saying that a state doesn't have, shouldn't

433
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:14,920
have the right to dictate production practices in another state.

434
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,000
So we are getting veterinarians to sign on.

435
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,920
The American Veterinary Medical Association hasn't really taken a stand on it.

436
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:28,000
We want to tell legislators, veterinarians are opposed to the EATS Act.

437
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:33,080
This threatens animal health and protection, and it threatens food safety too.

438
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,960
So we are encouraging people to sign on.

439
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:42,920
And they can go to rhonor.org and find our blog post about it and sign on there and find

440
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,600
all the information about why we are opposing the EATS Act.

441
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:55,600
And I guess people can go and encourage their vet, their personal vet, to sign that petition.

442
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,920
That's what we would love for people to do is go on social media, tag your veterinarian

443
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:06,280
in our content, email your veterinarian and tell them about this stuff.

444
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:11,920
And if they know that their clients really care about this, I think they'll start to

445
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:12,920
pay attention.

446
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:18,240
Hopefully then they'll tell their state veterinary medical associations, like, hey, a lot of

447
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,560
my clients are talking about this.

448
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,360
Let's take action.

449
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:27,840
Because our reputation as caring advocates for animals is really being destroyed by the

450
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,880
positions taken by the state VMAs and by the American Veterinary Medical Association.

451
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:38,640
It's like when the public finds out we're opposed to declaw bans, we support gestation

452
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,040
crates and we support mass killing of animals via heat stroke.

453
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,160
That's just not a good look.

454
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:50,720
It doesn't kind of help our authority when it comes to animal welfare.

455
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:59,080
I wish you could create a vegan certification for vets, because as a vegan, I would be influenced

456
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:00,080
by that certification.

457
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:06,960
I would think, I want a vegan vet who shares my beliefs for at least is in line with the

458
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,600
vegan cause.

459
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:14,640
And I would 100% go to that vet instead of another random vet who doesn't.

460
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:15,640
Yeah.

461
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:21,440
But I think the problem is all of us vets, we don't want more clients.

462
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:26,800
We're all so busy that we don't want to put our names out there anyway, because we just

463
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,040
want to take care of the people that we take care of now.

464
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,000
But it's a huge issue.

465
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,880
There's not enough veterinarians to take care of all of the animals.

466
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,320
It's hard to get an appointment at the vet.

467
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:44,560
But yeah, I imagine one day, imagine if every veterinary office had a bunch of vegan material,

468
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,680
animal rights material on the TV screen.

469
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,080
There was information about the harms of animal agriculture.

470
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:56,720
And it's like, you care about your dog and then realizing that other animals are just

471
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,600
like your dog or your cat.

472
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,560
And you're hearing about veganism and animal rights from your veterinarian.

473
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,400
That will be huge.

474
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:13,200
And if veterinarians are supportive of animal protection legislation, that would be huge.

475
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:18,920
Because I think the biggest barrier is to passing animal protection legislation is these

476
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:25,600
VMAs who squash all of the legislation that's put forward because legislators look to them

477
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,480
as like, oh, they're the experts in this.

478
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,880
So let's do what they want to do.

479
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,280
And we kill a lot of really important legislation.

480
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,680
And that's why your work is so important.

481
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,280
So again, thank you for doing what you are doing.

482
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:49,560
Another cause you are pursuing is that of the carbon dioxide gas chambers, which is

483
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:55,140
one more sadistic way of torturing animals out there.

484
00:34:55,140 --> 00:34:57,280
So could you tell us about that?

485
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:58,280
Yeah.

486
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:06,040
So a new method was kind of implemented since the 1990s to kill pigs.

487
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:12,880
It's a faster, more efficient way of killing pigs, but not necessarily a higher welfare

488
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:13,880
way.

489
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:21,200
And now 113.5 million pigs in the United States are killed using carbon dioxide gas chambers.

490
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,640
And Raven Deerbrook and activists place cameras inside of a slaughterhouse.

491
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,840
Gondola, like to see what actually happens to the pigs inside.

492
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:38,440
This is the only killing method that USDA inspectors can't observe when the pigs are

493
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,680
dying and what happens to them.

494
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:48,040
And she saw that the pigs are screaming, are scrambling for far too long minutes.

495
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,000
And I talked to Dr. Temple Grandin about this.

496
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:56,280
And she said she wanted to do a similar study where she placed cameras inside the gondolas

497
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:57,400
to see what happens.

498
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,060
And the company killed her study.

499
00:36:01,060 --> 00:36:08,880
And her solution is that we need to breed pigs who respond better to carbon dioxide.

500
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,820
I argue that how do we know?

501
00:36:12,820 --> 00:36:20,080
And that's kind of disturbing because a lot of people react differently to pain and suffering.

502
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:25,320
And just because a pig is standing there doesn't necessarily mean that they're not suffering.

503
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,560
Just because they're not going berserk, scrambling and screaming doesn't mean they're not suffering.

504
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:37,400
She argues that, well, we can tell because we've done studies that show that some pigs

505
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:43,800
will voluntarily put their head in lower carbon dioxide chambers to get a bit of food.

506
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,600
But that just tells me that that line of pigs is more highly food motivated and willing

507
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,400
to withstand some suffering in order to get food.

508
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,600
Doesn't necessarily say that they're not suffering.

509
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,880
So people always say, well, what's the better way then?

510
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:03,640
And the truth is there's really not a good feasible alternative.

511
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,800
We used to use electrocution or captive bolt guns.

512
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,160
And that requires pigs to line up single file, which they don't want to do at the pace that

513
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:17,880
is required for modern slaughter needs.

514
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:23,560
And that requires use of prods to prod them, which is bad.

515
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:29,120
There are mixtures of gases that can be used, like mixtures of argon and nitrogen.

516
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,400
So we'd have to reconfigure gas chambers.

517
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:40,980
But instead of spending all this effort reconfiguring things, we should really be asking, are we

518
00:37:40,980 --> 00:37:43,200
solving the wrong problem here?

519
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:49,680
Instead of solving the problem of how do we kill pigs with less suffering, how do we get

520
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,360
our nutrient needs met without having to kill pigs?

521
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,080
That's the question that we should be asking, I think.

522
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:03,880
So let's just scale down this animal agriculture and get slaughter free methods of food production

523
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,360
implemented instead.

524
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,040
Well, I mean, where is the historical sensitivity?

525
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,560
I mean, we're talking about gas chambers.

526
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,920
Is there no one who's offended by that?

527
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,120
I feel like we're just recreating gas chambers from concentration camps and using pigs instead

528
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:22,920
of humans.

529
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:31,240
I mean, sorry for my language, but what the fuck is that situation about?

530
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:32,240
It's frightening.

531
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:39,840
And there's this brilliant essay written about the moral vulnerabilities in medical culture

532
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:47,480
and how future doctors are sort of groomed to commit mass atrocities.

533
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,400
There's so many structures in place.

534
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:54,880
So this medical student, Alessandra Coliani at Johns Hopkins, sort of examines the harm

535
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,040
caused by doctors throughout history.

536
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:03,320
Human doctors participated in torture at Guantanamo Bay, mercy killings at Hurricane Katrina,

537
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,160
and of course, Nazi Germany.

538
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:13,480
And she found that doctors were more likely to become members of the SS than the general

539
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,400
population.

540
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:16,680
And like, why is that?

541
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,240
And it's because of all of the things in medical culture.

542
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:26,640
We're kind of taught to kind of suck it up and we have to be tougher.

543
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,880
We have to cause pain to heal.

544
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:36,480
And we don't really examine all of the ways we become desensitized to harms.

545
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,720
And we're looking for like the greater good.

546
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:47,960
And the way that we're viewing animals as a benefit to human beings, we're kind of objectifying

547
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:55,400
them just like Nazi doctors objectified people.

548
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,160
And it's very much the same thing.

549
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,040
And why we implemented gas chambers in the first place, why we implement ventilation

550
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:09,240
shutdown, it's because the reality is like having somebody kill individually one by one,

551
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:10,240
it's hard.

552
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:11,240
There's a lot of turnover.

553
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:12,240
There's a lot of moral distress.

554
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:15,840
The best way is to like distance people from it.

555
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,880
And the same reasons gas chambers were used in Nazi Germany are the same reasons gas chambers

556
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,600
are being used on animals now.

557
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,600
And we really need to examine that.

558
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,760
But it's like, you can't really talk about that.

559
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:34,880
But all of the detachment and everything that we are taught in medical culture is what leads

560
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:41,680
us to become susceptible to committing these mass atrocities.

561
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,240
I wholeheartedly agree.

562
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:51,080
And it's fascinating how we can make parallels between the abuse and exploitation of humans

563
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,580
and of animals.

564
00:40:52,580 --> 00:40:59,320
It proves the point that Darwin was making like a what 200 years ago, that the difference

565
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,820
between humans and animals is a difference of degree.

566
00:41:02,820 --> 00:41:06,180
What can we do about these gas chambers?

567
00:41:06,180 --> 00:41:11,280
What is happening in the front of fighting against them?

568
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,920
And how can we participate in the fight?

569
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:22,240
Well, what we did is the AVMA is coming out with their new guidelines for humane slaughter.

570
00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:25,620
And we submitted comments on those guidelines.

571
00:41:25,620 --> 00:41:28,520
We don't know they're currently working on the draft.

572
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,480
We don't know when it'll be out.

573
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:39,880
But I encourage people to share clips of this gas chamber footage online, on social media.

574
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:46,040
Whenever somebody talks about humanely raised pigs, ask them, how are the pigs killed?

575
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:47,040
Are they killed like this?

576
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,680
And show a little one minute clip of the pigs dying in the gas chamber.

577
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,720
This is how 113.5 million pigs are killed.

578
00:41:53,720 --> 00:42:00,840
No matter how humanely they are raised on whatever farm, this is how they're killed.

579
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,360
What are we doing here?

580
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,000
So yeah, come to ourhonor.org.

581
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,000
Sign up.

582
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,440
Sign our petition.

583
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,240
Sign our statement.

584
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:15,320
And humainslaughter.org is our other website that we have for this.

585
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:20,280
So you can look at all of the frequently asked questions.

586
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:21,720
What are the alternatives?

587
00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:26,600
I go through the different alternatives that are available and the problems with all of

588
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,200
those alternatives.

589
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:35,000
So educate yourselves, educate other people, and share this content widely.

590
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:43,720
And you have clips of that footage, but I think that you have six hours of footage of...

591
00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:44,720
It's actually...

592
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,720
Oh my God, how many?

593
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:49,720
16 hours of total footage.

594
00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:50,720
16, wow.

595
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:55,680
Yeah, but there's some one minute clips that are easier to share on social media and Twitter

596
00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:00,240
and Instagram and Facebook.

597
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:02,160
Okay.

598
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:07,680
The next fight I want to talk about and that your organization is leading is that of...

599
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,600
Well, I will read the point.

600
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:16,200
We also urge the American Veterinary Medical Association to consider exploitation's role

601
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:21,400
when setting sustainability policies.

602
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:28,560
So you're highlighting the environmental impact of animal exploitation here.

603
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,480
And I think it's a very interesting point.

604
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,560
So could you expand on that?

605
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:39,560
Yeah, for the first time, the AVMA at their convention brought up sustainability, but

606
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:45,880
they're talking about the greening of veterinary practices, like use more recycling and things

607
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:46,880
like that.

608
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:52,360
And it's like, wait, there's this huge issue that we're not talking about.

609
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:59,640
And Martha Smith Blackmore, she's a delegate, and she took to the stage and said, we really

610
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:04,800
need to address the elephant in the room, which is animal agriculture.

611
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:10,680
And somebody, a poultry veterinarian stood up and responded and says, they got really

612
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:15,280
defensive and was like, if you think we're not taking this seriously, we are taking this

613
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:16,960
seriously.

614
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:23,800
And it's like, what they're doing is using dairy digesters, where now in California,

615
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:29,640
many dairies get more money by selling low carbon fuel standard credits than they get

616
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,040
by selling milk.

617
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:38,080
And we're throwing how many gallons of milk away in schools.

618
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:45,440
40% of the kids toss the milk cartons out in the trash without even drinking them.

619
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:51,720
We've got 1.6 billion pounds of government cheese stored.

620
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:58,120
And we're selling low carbon fuel standard credit using dairy digesters.

621
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,440
And it's outrageous.

622
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:08,740
Meanwhile, if we transition to plant-based nutrient production in place of beef and dairy,

623
00:45:08,740 --> 00:45:14,220
that would free up around 700 million acres of land in the United States.

624
00:45:14,220 --> 00:45:20,600
So veterinarians really have to take the lead in advocating for animals and advocating for

625
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:25,000
a switch to slaughter free forms of nutrient production.

626
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:32,640
Yeah, and I think that in terms of fighting for the environment and against climate change,

627
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:38,300
this should be a priority because this is the top five, if not the number one reason

628
00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:45,960
for pollution out there and destruction of environments and so on.

629
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:46,960
Exactly.

630
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:47,960
Yeah.

631
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,840
And our populations are growing.

632
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:56,880
And animal agriculture is making this argument that in order to feed 10 billion people, we

633
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,360
have to prioritize animal agriculture.

634
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:04,080
It's like, no, we're not going to be able to feed the planet and have a healthy planet

635
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:08,620
if we're eating this much in animal products.

636
00:46:08,620 --> 00:46:11,720
So we really have to switch to plant-based nutrition.

637
00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:12,920
Yeah.

638
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:21,040
I hear a lot of farmers talk proudly about how they are feeding the world, feeding the

639
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,000
country, feeding the community.

640
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:31,200
And I want to say, Bill, you're feeding the people who can afford meat and you're destroying

641
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:38,360
the environment and destroying those lands that should be used for plant-based diets,

642
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,160
sources of nutrition in a better world.

643
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,000
But here we are.

644
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,000
Yeah.

645
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:50,040
And now they're going into other countries, industrialized animal agriculture is going

646
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:55,400
to Africa and the pharmaceutical companies are loving it because the biggest customer

647
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,040
is animal agriculture.

648
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,360
If you think we sell a lot of medications to humans, that's nothing in comparison to

649
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,300
the antibiotics and vaccines that pharmaceutical companies sell to animals.

650
00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:10,480
And so now you have these whole new markets opening up and the growth in pharmaceuticals

651
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,120
expected, all of the investments made there.

652
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:22,120
And we really have to say, I think people in the pharmaceutical industry and in animal

653
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:28,240
agriculture should really start to feel the pressure that an end is coming and investments

654
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:35,880
really need to be made elsewhere, not in this antiquated model that causes so much harm.

655
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,080
Yeah.

656
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:45,280
The antibiotic era coming to an end, this is truly frightening and I had Catherine

657
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:50,760
Besh, I don't remember which episode it was, but she's the founder of Animal Sanctuary

658
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:58,120
in Vietnam and she was telling me how the animal industry was pushing dairy on the Vietnamese

659
00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,480
people.

660
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:05,840
And in her time in Vietnam, she saw how the children were now eating lots of yogurt, lots

661
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:15,640
of milk, and this is not even native to their culture in terms of feeding yourself.

662
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,520
And yeah, it's fascinating and it's dangerous.

663
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:24,360
And she was also telling me how Vietnam has the highest rate of antibiotic resistance

664
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:25,640
in the world.

665
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,920
So that's another problem.

666
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,960
And I was considering Vietnam as a vacation spot.

667
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:33,960
Now I don't.

668
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:40,120
I'm sorry that I don't want to catch some bacteria and then I just know antibiotic will

669
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:41,120
work on me.

670
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:42,120
Yeah.

671
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:43,120
Yeah.

672
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:44,120
Yeah, it's frightening.

673
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,800
It's food colonialism.

674
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:52,680
I was arguing with somebody on Twitter who is telling me that New Zealand berries are

675
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:58,320
the most humane and that I should drink New Zealand milk.

676
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:03,560
And I'm like, I talked to a livestock vet from New Zealand and he was saying how you

677
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:08,920
have a huge problem with resistance to dewormers.

678
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:10,320
And I'm like, what do you think about that?

679
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:11,320
He's like, oh, that happens.

680
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:12,320
It's fine.

681
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:13,320
It's not a big deal.

682
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,440
It's like, oh, because you guys were misusing them.

683
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:24,240
And the biodiversity loss in New Zealand is a huge threat and it's one of your national

684
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:25,560
security risks.

685
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:32,320
And this was caused by introduction of herbivores grazing on habitats.

686
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:38,760
And now you had to introduce all of these antibiotics and all of these dewormers.

687
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,680
And now there's resistance to these dewormers.

688
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:48,000
That's threatening the biodiversity and the habitat destruction and habitat loss.

689
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,500
90% of your wetlands are gone.

690
00:49:50,500 --> 00:49:56,240
And you're telling me like I should drink New Zealand milk instead of non animal based

691
00:49:56,240 --> 00:49:57,240
milk.

692
00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:58,240
Like, why?

693
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:00,880
Like, what's the reason for doing that?

694
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:07,320
So doctor, tell me, is there a fight you want to talk about and that you're leading with

695
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:12,560
your organization and I haven't asked you about?

696
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:18,240
We are also addressing the harmful use of animals in medical school training, veterinary

697
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:20,280
school training.

698
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:27,720
People don't realize that veterinary students have to kill their patients often in veterinary

699
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:28,720
school.

700
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:38,360
The cadavers that students use to learn anatomy, they're often animals purchased from bioscience

701
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,520
companies purposefully bred for that purpose.

702
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,800
And there's an alternative.

703
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:50,160
There's humane ethical alternatives, which are willed body programs.

704
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:56,520
When our own dog, cat, horse, goat passes away, we can donate their body to veterinary school

705
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:58,400
for veterinary students to learn on.

706
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:04,760
We don't need to be purposefully breeding animals for veterinary students to learn on.

707
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:11,280
But also like there are veterinary students who have to anesthetize a healthy animal,

708
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,960
perform one or more surgeries on them, and then kill them before the animal is even allowed

709
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:17,640
to wake up.

710
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:23,600
And that is horrifying and against our ethics.

711
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:28,400
And students are bullied into doing this, worrying that they're going to face a failing

712
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,960
grade, worried that they're going to be ostracized.

713
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:33,640
And the threats are really ramping up.

714
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:39,400
I feel like the veterinary students are even more afraid now to speak up when it's very

715
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:44,800
clear there's so much evidence against these sorts of training models when there's so many

716
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:46,660
more alternatives.

717
00:51:46,660 --> 00:51:50,300
But the students are at the same time more fearful about speaking up.

718
00:51:50,300 --> 00:51:54,440
So we're going to put on some Know Your Rights trainings in the future for veterinary students.

719
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:59,480
If there's any veterinary students out there, and you feel threatened and you feel like

720
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,720
you can't speak up, reach out to us.

721
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:09,400
Our honor wants to write to these schools and advocate for change in curriculum that

722
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,200
requires less animal harm.

723
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,720
We're going to come out with the numbers of how many animals are killed at each school

724
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:22,400
and make a ranking of the most ethical to the least ethical veterinary schools.

725
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:27,480
And there's going to be a lot more information coming out in that area.

726
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,480
And that's a huge opportunity for change.

727
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:35,880
And veterinary students shouldn't feel scared.

728
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:42,640
Just know that animal law attorneys are wanting to take on some sort of case First Amendment

729
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,320
attorneys.

730
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,760
We have your back.

731
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,040
There's a lot you can do and a lot of animals you can save.

732
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,160
And some people say like, oh, what's the most ethical vet school to go to?

733
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,640
And I encourage if you're bold, go to the worst ones.

734
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:03,440
And because you're going to save more animals by changing the curriculum at the worst schools,

735
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:08,320
like you could change, you can save thousands of animals by changing the curriculum, whereas

736
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:12,240
you're not going to save any animals if you go to school that doesn't harm animals.

737
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:15,040
So that's my philosophy.

738
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:21,000
So stay tuned and follow us on social media to hear more about that.

739
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,240
Why are they not suing the colleges?

740
00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:26,680
Because this is a traumatizing experience.

741
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:34,180
I hear about lectures getting cancelled in colleges because they are insensitive.

742
00:53:34,180 --> 00:53:41,360
And then there's this horrible situation going on at your vet school department.

743
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:49,520
I mean, if this is not a lawsuit, lawsuit material, then I don't know what it is.

744
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:51,480
And it's it's against our oath.

745
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:56,240
It's anti the three Rs, like the most welfarist basic.

746
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:59,080
This isn't even animal rights stuff we're talking about here.

747
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:03,320
This is like basic just adhering to the ethics of the veterinary profession.

748
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:08,440
And Gary Francione, you know, back in the day did sue a lot of schools for this.

749
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:16,760
And sadly, like there's been kind of silence lately, you know, and I feel like, you know,

750
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,160
we really need to ramp that up again.

751
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:20,160
More lawsuits.

752
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,440
You know, there's so much potential here for change.

753
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:25,440
I believe you.

754
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:26,440
I believe you.

755
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,240
And I hope people support your work.

756
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:38,420
Did you have something to to add to the conversation, Dr. Hey, before we stop the conversation?

757
00:54:38,420 --> 00:54:39,420
That's it.

758
00:54:39,420 --> 00:54:43,480
Just if your vet student reach out, if you're not a vet or veterinarian, still reach out

759
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:44,480
because we need help.

760
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,220
We need volunteers.

761
00:54:46,220 --> 00:54:50,360
We need people to reach out to their vets and talk about these issues.

762
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,600
And we have handouts that you can even give to your vet if you go in person.

763
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:58,520
If you want a stack of them, email us and we'll mail you some so you can give to all

764
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,840
the veterinary offices in your area.

765
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,240
So please get involved and follow us on social media.

766
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:05,800
Amazing.

767
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:11,560
Thank you so much, doctor, for having taken the time to answer my questions.

768
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,040
And thank you for your great work.

769
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,560
This is such inspiring work.

770
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:17,600
Those are the things I want to hear.

771
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,240
And yeah, thank you.

772
00:55:19,240 --> 00:55:20,240
Thank you so much.

773
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:21,840
Thank you for having me.

774
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,280
It was fun.

775
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,520
Thank you, everyone, for listening.

776
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:30,180
I hope Dr. Heath's message resonated with you.

777
00:55:30,180 --> 00:55:34,440
Please tell your friends about the show and why you love it so much.

778
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,520
Let's inspire more people to take action.

779
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:45,080
If you're listening to this on Apple Podcast, please consider leaving me a good review.

780
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:51,560
And on that topic, I want to thank a certain John who has left me a five star review.

781
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:55,080
He wrote, I'll stick to it as long as I can.

782
00:55:55,080 --> 00:56:01,440
I'm not vegan, but have been leaning that direction much farther now.

783
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:07,560
Thank you so much, John, for being my very first review on Apple Podcast.

784
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:10,440
The Vegan Report is also on YouTube.

785
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:18,040
And a certain WIC entry left this comment on episode 10 about vegan conservatives.

786
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,080
Lovely and insightful podcast as always.

787
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:26,200
I always found it interesting that there aren't more conservative who are vegan.

788
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:31,420
Regarding the more conservative ideals, it's interesting to hear conservatives talk about

789
00:56:31,420 --> 00:56:37,480
small government and being opposed to government handouts, but animal agriculture subsidies

790
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,360
don't even register.

791
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:41,360
Great episode.

792
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,800
Well, great point, WIC entry.

793
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:48,920
And thank you so much for your support and your kind words.

794
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:55,940
Finally, you can always reach out to me on Instagram at veganreportpodcast.

795
00:56:55,940 --> 00:56:58,200
Thank you again for listening.

796
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,760
Take care and see you next Tuesday for a new episode.