Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.
If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're
not sure where to start, then this podcast is for you.
Every week, let yourself fall in love with passionate animal rights leaders who will
inspire you to find your voice, your own special contribution to the animal rights movement.
However small or big it is.
Today, we are going to talk about veterinarians.
And let me start by telling you a personal story.
Weeks ago, I was a devet.
My old cat had some health problems, so here I was for an exam.
And as I was patiently waiting to meet the good doctor, a lady came in with her cat and
she looked visibly upset.
And she basically started yelling at the receptionist.
Now here's what I understood from the situation.
A provincial law forbidding the surgical procedure of declawing was going to take into effect
at the end of the day.
And this woman was dead set on declawing her cat before the deadline.
And she was upset because no clinic could find time to welcome her as a client.
Now I felt very uneasy about that interaction for a number of reasons.
One of them being that it reminded me of an old question I had.
How come vets are not vegan?
They are the ones who understand the best animals.
So why are they not greater allies in the cause of animal rights?
Why are they performing cruel and unnecessary surgeries like declawing in the first place?
To discuss this topic, I have with me Dr. Heath from the organization Our Honor.
And Our Honor is a vegan organization which works closely with and for animal health care
professionals.
Let me read one of their mission statement.
We empower and support veterinarians, veterinary students, and animal professionals who face
bullying and retaliation for trying to create more ethical systems while working for the
best interest of others no matter their species.
So Dr. welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for having me.
And that's a heartbreaking story and that kind of shows the bullying that we face not
only from our colleagues but from clients who want us to participate in animal harm.
And that's kind of an example a lot of veterinarians and veterinarians associations use to oppose
declaw bans.
They say well clients will tell us that they're going to euthanize their cat who's scratching
because, you know, they don't want a cat who will scratch their furniture or scratch themselves.
And it's really heartbreaking because we have now decades of research showing that countries
that have banned declawing across the world have successfully protected cats, clients,
and veterinarians.
And these are like old antiquated arguments.
We should not be being bullied into committing harm against animals.
And you know that's what we're allowing to happen.
And it's just tragic and heartbreaking.
Well, as we are on the topic, what is declawing?
Because at first I believed the surgery to be about removing claws.
And actually it's about removing the bone.
And it's much more, you know, horrible and radical than we think.
So can you explain what is declawing?
Yeah, it's amputation of the first digit of the claw.
So it's de-knuckling.
And we've found that a lot of cats after they're declawed will resort to biting.
You know, a lot of people say, well, I'm immunocompromised.
I can't be scratched by my cat.
And then they declaw their cat and then their cat bites them.
Or they're upset that their cat is scratching their furniture, so they declaw them.
And then the cat doesn't use the litter box after that because the pain in the claws and
they associate the litter box and the scratching the litter box with pain.
So they start peeing outside the litter box.
And then as a shelter veterinarian, I saw many cats relinquished to the shelter after
a declaw because of these effects.
And so one of our honor campaigns is to support declaw bans as well.
And sadly, like our biggest opponent is the veterinary medical associations who are opposing
these declaw bans.
Why?
They're giving all of the old reasons that, oh, if we ban declawing, then people will
relinquish their cats to the shelter when they scratch or if they're immunocompromised.
One veterinary association used this sad story of this older man with a medical condition
and his cat was playfully scratching him.
And their only option was to either euthanize the cat or declaw the cat.
And it's like, that is not the only option.
And if he was to declaw the cat, then the cat starts biting him.
And that's another huge problem that's created.
So the answer is not to mutilate and cause harm to our patients.
Just to look for other alternatives.
And we always find when animal protection laws are put in place, people then value animals
more and they're not viewed as just accessories that can be mutilated and manipulated to suit
our needs.
We're instilling these are individuals that need to be protected for their own and need
their own interests protected.
Like any other human patient in the healthcare sector.
So I'm very curious about your journey to becoming this vegan activist.
How did you discover veganism?
How did you decide to become vegan?
And how did that show itself in your vet practice?
Well, all my life animals were my close friends, but ironically, I grew up in a rural area,
an ag community.
I was involved in 4-H and my neighbors raised cattle, sheep, pigs and goats for slaughter
and raised pigs in 4-H to go to slaughter.
So I was very familiar with that.
But at a young age, I also got my hands on some PETA material.
I tried going vegetarian when I was 10.
My parents really gave me a hard time for it because I was really a small skinny kid
anyway.
They were really worried that I was going to be really unhealthy.
And so I kind of went away from the dietary stuff, but I was involved.
I was an equestrian and I was involved in a lot of horse advocacy stuff like pregnant
mare urine, raising awareness about the PMU foals.
And this is urine that's collected to make the drug Premarin for menopausal women.
I was also fascinated by the hunt sobs, which are the direct action activists who will
sabotage these fox hunts.
And I'm like, that's great.
Why are you doing it?
I'm like, yeah, it's fun to ride a horse and jump over fences.
Why are you now killing foxes?
Like it makes no sense.
And now I don't ride horses anymore, but I'm not necessarily opposed to it.
I am an advocate against horse racing.
I'm an advocate against breeding and selling horses.
Not necessarily opposed to people rescuing horses and riding them with their best interests
in mind, not for ego stroking and all of that.
But that's a kind of a nuanced discussion.
And then I really, after I kind of went to vet school, paid off my student loan debt,
became more involved in advocacy around the California fur ban and really opening my eyes
to animal agriculture stuff and the advocacy surrounding that and realizing, oh, veterinarians
really need to get involved in this.
Things are changing at a rapid pace.
I think we're really starting to address animal agriculture in a real significant way now
and veterinarians need to get involved in this.
And then of course, ventilation shut down, which is the practice of sealing up barns,
pumping in heat and steam and waiting for the animals inside to die really came to light
during 2020 and the COVID-19 outbreak that shut down slaughterhouses.
And that's when I realized veterinarians play a key role in addressing these issues.
And then I faced a great deal of backlash and retaliation from the industry when they
realized I posed a real threat to them.
I'm very professional person.
I haven't been involved in any crazy, radical, extreme stuff.
I merely worked on legislation and they portrayed me as this radical activist.
They made memes about me saying, beware, Dr. Heath means nothing good for our profession.
They sent out emails to my veterinary colleagues in California warning them about me.
I was kicked out of veterinary Facebook groups.
Emails have been written about me by the industry saying I'm a militant vegan with a streak
of zealotry.
I was banned from attending the AVMA's Humane Ending Symposium, even though I'm an 11-year
member of the AVMA.
So it was crazy to realize how threatened they were by a veterinarian speaking out.
And then I unpacked all of the reasons why the veterinary profession wasn't supportive
of animal rights.
And that's a whole other journey.
Well that's the next question I had for you.
Why are not vets the greatest allies of vegans?
But first, about that backlash, were also your colleagues involved in your cancellation?
Because it is a cancellation.
People that you know, who knew that you were not this extremist that you were portrayed
to be.
Could you count on their support or did they just turn against you?
It was really kind of nuts how my classmates who knew me had turned on me.
And they knew like my intentions and my background and everything.
But it's like a pack mentality, a group think.
And they believed the story that was told about me that I was basically going to...
The original thing that happened was my colleagues were reaching out to me saying, you're posting
all of these things against animal agriculture.
You really should shadow a livestock veterinarian.
And I studied animal science at UC Davis.
I'm a former 4-H-er.
I thought, well, I know what I'm talking about, but sure, I'm down to shadow livestock vet.
And so I posted on a veterinary Facebook group that I was looking to shadow livestock veterinarian
to understand.
And then they were like, look, she's posting stuff from this extremist group on my public
Facebook page.
And they said I was going to go undercover and secretly record people to use against
them.
And it's like, if I was going to go undercover, do you think I would really post publicly
on my public Facebook page things that are so critical of animal agriculture?
So it was just crazy, but it's amazing how the motivated reasoning and how people will
believe and how threatened they are by it.
So yeah.
And it goes back to the question of why aren't veterinarians supportive of animal rights
and veganism?
And I want to ask why more vegans aren't becoming veterinarians.
And it's because we don't want to see animals suffer.
We don't want to euthanize animals.
We don't.
And I think a lot of us self-select against entering the profession.
But there's active gatekeeping against veterinarians who are vegan and animal rights activists,
because there's a producer and a research veterinarian on every veterinary admissions
board making sure that their interests are protected.
And the animal rights philosophy is viewed as so antithetical to veterinary medicine.
We're taught in school that if animals were to get rights, that would mean that we could
be sued for a lot more money than we can be sued for now.
That would increase the cost of our malpractice insurance.
That would increase the cost of medical care.
So that would ultimately harm animals.
And of course, it also threatens animal experimentation.
Many people are still supportive of animal experimentation viewing that as beneficial
to human beings.
People want to ride horses.
People want to eat meat.
So this threatens that whole thing.
And veterinarians are viewed as playing a key role in sustaining animal agriculture.
So these are all the reasons.
But they're all things that we need to dismantle and kind of deconstruct all of these belief
systems and rebuild a food system that is more healthy and sustainable and good for
everybody.
And I think veterinarians will play a key role.
But we have to kind of deconstruct the biases that we've been taught.
Well, I'm shocked.
I'm simply shocked.
And I'm still thinking about the part where you said they filter out vegans from the vet
profession.
What?
This is crazy.
Why aren't we talking about this more?
Well, I am talking about it.
But yeah, I mean, I learned back in 2008 when I was applying for vet school, I talked to
somebody about it and they're like, you really should keep the whole vegetarian.
I wasn't vegan at the time.
I was vegetarian.
Keep that quiet.
Just keep in mind, people may be threatened by that.
So I kind of keep it under wraps.
And another vet student recently told me she was outspoken about being vegan when she was
interviewing because she's like, I want to be accepted.
And that's the whole fitting in versus belonging thing.
She wanted to belong where she went.
And luckily, there's a new progressive school that opened up.
And that's a little bit more forward thinking.
But she said in her interview that she was vegan.
And they argued with her.
They're like, what about spaying and neutering?
And she explained how spaying and neutering is consistent with veganism because it's for
the animal's best interest to prevent overpopulation.
And they let her in.
But it's like, you have to know your stuff and you have to be able to communicate it
in the right way.
And every vet student's always reach out to me.
The first semester of veterinary school, there's this class on welfare versus animal rights.
And it's always like an ag person coming in explaining the difference between animal
welfare and animal rights and how we're a profession that supports animal welfare for
these reasons.
I remember even in school, they said how the Humane Society of the United States isn't
actually about animal shelters.
It's a wealthy organization that secretly wants to give animals rights.
And they talked about how the Harvard Animal Law Clinic and the Yale Animal Law Clinic
was a threat to our profession in all of these ways.
And I was skeptical at the time.
And I was just kind of rolling my eyes.
But I didn't have the language to fight back.
And I'm kind of thinking, I don't know if you saw the Barbie movie.
It's like, spoiler alert to anybody who hasn't seen it.
But like, Penn goes back to the real world and then comes back to Barbie land and brings
the patriarchy to Barbie land.
And it's like the Barbies just eat it up.
And it's like, why did the Barbies just go along with this?
And it's like, because they were naive, they're sitting ducks, they didn't have the immunity
to it.
So they just ate it up.
And that's what best students are.
We're just like sitting ducks.
We're not taught in how to refute those sorts of arguments that are perpetuated by animal
ag.
We're just kind of like indoctrinated into it.
So you're faced with all that backlash.
And knowing what you know, I guess there was a moment when you could have just backed away
and just go silent and stop creating waves.
Why did you decide to pursue your denunciation of this industry to the point of creating
our honor?
So why did you make that choice?
And where did you find the strength to make that choice?
It was so helpful to have some veterinary colleagues who were really supportive of me
and to have Glenn Greenwald write a story about you and have me on his show.
And that was huge.
And then it's like, OK, this is a real, people really care about this.
This is a big deal.
And then luckily had somebody give me a lot of money to start our honors.
And sometimes all the everything, all the stars are aligning in the right direction.
But it's like if I didn't have the support of some colleagues, if I didn't have Glenn
Greenwald, if I didn't have somebody willing to financially back me, I wouldn't have been
able to do it.
And I think it's happened to a lot of people who did have to quietly go away because they
had none of that support.
And I don't have kids.
I'm not married.
I am very I'm also I have all my student loan debt paid off, which is rare for people.
So I have a lot of privilege that and I'm like, I'm going to take advantage of all the
privilege that I was given.
So, you know, yeah, that makes you that makes you a powerful opponent.
And for those of you who don't know, Glenn Greenwald is a award winning journalist.
He's the one who break to the Snowden story, so about mass surveillance and stuff like
that.
So, yeah, you got the funding.
You decide to start our honor.
What was the first cause, the first fight that you decided to lead with your organization?
This was our advocacy around ventilation shut down and raising awareness about the mass
killing of animals via heat stroke.
The American Veterinary Medical Association condones this practice in constrained circumstances.
And we were still finding out more and more about how that came about.
We're doing a lot of FOIA requests to discover all the conversations that were had about
allowing this practice in the first place.
And we're really finding that the guidelines on depopulation were really started kind of
after the first avian influenza outbreak when veterans didn't know what to do.
All of these birds are getting sick.
It probably does make the most sense to try to stop the spread of the disease and stop
animal suffering by ending the lives of birds.
But they were going about it in a haphazard way, throwing birds in wood chippers.
Nobody really knew what they're doing.
And so they're like, okay, good intentions.
Let's figure out as veterinarians what's the best way to do this.
But I think there was some complacency of like, this is good enough.
And we found the National Pork Board, which is under the USDA.
This is the pork checkoff program, the pork, the other white meat advertising campaign.
Veterinarian who was part of the Pork Board played a key role in creating the guidelines
on depopulation for pigs.
And so the AVMA was very defensive about the fact that we were criticizing this document.
And after the realities of ventilation shut down and the footage of how horrible it was
for the pigs and the pigs screaming for hours, well, this wasn't acceptable.
But we also found that the reason it got in the guidelines in the first place was an industry
funded study performed at an industry funded public university.
The Prestige Department of Fultry Science, named after Prestige Farms, was used as the
basis for putting this method in the guidelines.
And then the USDA has a cooperative agreement with the AVMA.
So that if methods used are listed in the guidelines, the USDA gives our taxpayer dollars,
public funds back to those producers who have kind of created the conditions that necessitate
the atrocity of mass killing of animals via heat stroke in the first place.
And it's like a really dangerous feedback loop.
It's kind of like recently, Bill Sack, the Ag Secretary, just increased indemnity payments
to cattle producers because of climate change, because cows are being lost in the heat of
climate change.
But obviously, climate change is perpetuated by cows in the first place.
So we're just having this dangerous feedback loop of enabling producers to continue practices
that cause emergency situations and then necessitate the cruelest killing methods.
So that was our first advocacy efforts, and we really have gained a lot of media attention.
And I've been barred from attending the AVMA's Humane Ending Symposium, the legislative fly-in.
But it's like, okay, every time they keep pushing back, we get more media attention.
And now it'll be interesting to see what happens at the next conventions.
I have been allowed to continue to go to conventions since then.
I felt like at the last convention, I was treated a little bit better.
So I think change is coming.
I think they're really realizing they are definitely in the wrong here.
Yes, that's what I want to hear because this is so dark.
What a dark problem.
And it just brings in me feelings of despair a bit because it's like a conspiracy.
You have the vet associations, and then you have the government and the private industry,
and they're all talking to each other and helping each other while the animals are just
in the worst possible pain.
And I had a representative animal partisan, which is this organization that sues the
animal industry when there is proof of animal abuse.
And he was telling me how the FBI, even the FBI was in bed with the animal industry and
participating in conferences organized by the farm industry.
So I wonder, do you feel safe about what you're doing?
Do you feel like you could be in danger from doing all of what you're doing and becoming
the target of an institution like the FBI?
Well, I haven't done anything, even bordering on illegal.
But there have been weird things that have happened where I'm wondering if I'm being
surveilled.
I wonder if there's a campaign to smear me.
A lot of things I can't explain and can't really talk about.
So it is weird.
I'm lucky I live in a really secure building.
But yeah, there have been some really weird things that have happened.
I'm kind of open.
I'm an adventurous person.
I'm down for whatever plot twist they're going to throw at me.
So I don't know.
I'm just the perfect person for them to try to do whatever they want to do because I'm
just like, yeah, the FBI, let's do something crazy.
You're always scared you're going to get assassinated or something.
But what are you going to do?
The worst thing anybody could do is get you to not be able to talk.
And I'd rather them try to murder me than me feel like I can't use my voice.
Those are intimidation techniques.
I don't think that they will go as far as that.
But they want to frighten you.
Frame me for something.
Who knows?
Yeah.
Well, hopefully nothing happens.
And thankfully, you can think of those situations and misadventures as just another chapter
in the book, the bestseller book that you're going to write one day.
So yeah, let's put a positive spin to this story.
Have you stopped fighting for that horrible ventilation mass murder thing that happened?
Is that behind you or is it still current affair?
Yeah, it's still ongoing because our next threat is African swine fever.
Ventilation shutdown was used in the avian influenza outbreak that's died down.
Now African swine fever is an emerging threat.
They still don't have any plan in place to use anything better than ventilation shutdown.
We're getting more and more FOIA documents about the conversations around this.
And we'll see how it goes.
It's kind of out of the media right now, so nobody's really talking about it.
But we're still working on it, even though it's not an active news story.
So stay tuned for that.
And on this issue, can people do something in particular to advance that fight?
Yeah, if you want to stay involved and get in touch, go to vavsd.org.
That's veterinarians against ventilation shutdown.org.
And you can sign on to our petition.
Even if you're not a veterinarian, at least you'll sign on to our petition and get our
newsletters and stuff.
And also ourhonor.org, sign up for our newsletter there.
Follow us on social media to stay appraised of what's going on.
And we'll kind of let you know.
Every Friday we do a FOIA Friday where we kind of highlight the most, the best FOIA
document that we've received recently.
So stay tuned for that on social media too.
And of course, all of those links will be available in the description.
Another fight you're leading is against the EATS Act.
Now what is this about?
What is the EATS Act?
And why is it bad?
This is the industry's way to overturn Proposition 12.
And we also supported Proposition 12.
We helped get over 400 veterinarians to sign on to an amicus brief in support of Prop 12.
What is Prop 12?
This is the ballot measure passed in California by 63% of California voters.
And it gives animals minimum cage space requirements.
So the flesh of animals and eggs of animals sold in California have to come from animals
who have met minimum requirements.
And all of the other industry groups were kind of accepted this, were fine with this,
except the pork industry.
Of course, they are literally the most ruthless, powerful, and abusive industry on the planet.
So of course, they fought back.
The National Pork Producers Council fought it all the way to the Supreme Court.
It was a huge battle in the Supreme Court.
Amicus briefs back and forth.
We helped write one and we helped get a bunch of veterinarians to sign on to counter the
American Association of Swine Veterinarians amicus brief that opposed Prop 12.
They wanted to keep pigs confined to gestation crates.
And these are crates.
Other pigs are housed in for 114 days of their pregnancy, two and a half foot by seven and
a half foot stalls where they're unable to turn around.
And the pigs are kept in these, then they go to ferroin crates, and then they go back
to gestation crates.
And that's how they spend their whole lives.
And they're cold usually after four pregnancies, but sometimes they go through as many as 14
pregnancies, you know, just being confined in this way.
It's absolutely cruel and horrifying.
And so Prop 12 is one way to stop that because it requires that the flesh of pigs sold in
California come from mothers who were given at least 24 square feet.
But yeah, it was fought.
And luckily the Supreme Court upheld Prop 12.
But now the EATS Act is a way to overturn that, saying that a state doesn't have, shouldn't
have the right to dictate production practices in another state.
So we are getting veterinarians to sign on.
The American Veterinary Medical Association hasn't really taken a stand on it.
We want to tell legislators, veterinarians are opposed to the EATS Act.
This threatens animal health and protection, and it threatens food safety too.
So we are encouraging people to sign on.
And they can go to rhonor.org and find our blog post about it and sign on there and find
all the information about why we are opposing the EATS Act.
And I guess people can go and encourage their vet, their personal vet, to sign that petition.
That's what we would love for people to do is go on social media, tag your veterinarian
in our content, email your veterinarian and tell them about this stuff.
And if they know that their clients really care about this, I think they'll start to
pay attention.
Hopefully then they'll tell their state veterinary medical associations, like, hey, a lot of
my clients are talking about this.
Let's take action.
Because our reputation as caring advocates for animals is really being destroyed by the
positions taken by the state VMAs and by the American Veterinary Medical Association.
It's like when the public finds out we're opposed to declaw bans, we support gestation
crates and we support mass killing of animals via heat stroke.
That's just not a good look.
It doesn't kind of help our authority when it comes to animal welfare.
I wish you could create a vegan certification for vets, because as a vegan, I would be influenced
by that certification.
I would think, I want a vegan vet who shares my beliefs for at least is in line with the
vegan cause.
And I would 100% go to that vet instead of another random vet who doesn't.
Yeah.
But I think the problem is all of us vets, we don't want more clients.
We're all so busy that we don't want to put our names out there anyway, because we just
want to take care of the people that we take care of now.
But it's a huge issue.
There's not enough veterinarians to take care of all of the animals.
It's hard to get an appointment at the vet.
But yeah, I imagine one day, imagine if every veterinary office had a bunch of vegan material,
animal rights material on the TV screen.
There was information about the harms of animal agriculture.
And it's like, you care about your dog and then realizing that other animals are just
like your dog or your cat.
And you're hearing about veganism and animal rights from your veterinarian.
That will be huge.
And if veterinarians are supportive of animal protection legislation, that would be huge.
Because I think the biggest barrier is to passing animal protection legislation is these
VMAs who squash all of the legislation that's put forward because legislators look to them
as like, oh, they're the experts in this.
So let's do what they want to do.
And we kill a lot of really important legislation.
And that's why your work is so important.
So again, thank you for doing what you are doing.
Another cause you are pursuing is that of the carbon dioxide gas chambers, which is
one more sadistic way of torturing animals out there.
So could you tell us about that?
Yeah.
So a new method was kind of implemented since the 1990s to kill pigs.
It's a faster, more efficient way of killing pigs, but not necessarily a higher welfare
way.
And now 113.5 million pigs in the United States are killed using carbon dioxide gas chambers.
And Raven Deerbrook and activists place cameras inside of a slaughterhouse.
Gondola, like to see what actually happens to the pigs inside.
This is the only killing method that USDA inspectors can't observe when the pigs are
dying and what happens to them.
And she saw that the pigs are screaming, are scrambling for far too long minutes.
And I talked to Dr. Temple Grandin about this.
And she said she wanted to do a similar study where she placed cameras inside the gondolas
to see what happens.
And the company killed her study.
And her solution is that we need to breed pigs who respond better to carbon dioxide.
I argue that how do we know?
And that's kind of disturbing because a lot of people react differently to pain and suffering.
And just because a pig is standing there doesn't necessarily mean that they're not suffering.
Just because they're not going berserk, scrambling and screaming doesn't mean they're not suffering.
She argues that, well, we can tell because we've done studies that show that some pigs
will voluntarily put their head in lower carbon dioxide chambers to get a bit of food.
But that just tells me that that line of pigs is more highly food motivated and willing
to withstand some suffering in order to get food.
Doesn't necessarily say that they're not suffering.
So people always say, well, what's the better way then?
And the truth is there's really not a good feasible alternative.
We used to use electrocution or captive bolt guns.
And that requires pigs to line up single file, which they don't want to do at the pace that
is required for modern slaughter needs.
And that requires use of prods to prod them, which is bad.
There are mixtures of gases that can be used, like mixtures of argon and nitrogen.
So we'd have to reconfigure gas chambers.
But instead of spending all this effort reconfiguring things, we should really be asking, are we
solving the wrong problem here?
Instead of solving the problem of how do we kill pigs with less suffering, how do we get
our nutrient needs met without having to kill pigs?
That's the question that we should be asking, I think.
So let's just scale down this animal agriculture and get slaughter free methods of food production
implemented instead.
Well, I mean, where is the historical sensitivity?
I mean, we're talking about gas chambers.
Is there no one who's offended by that?
I feel like we're just recreating gas chambers from concentration camps and using pigs instead
of humans.
I mean, sorry for my language, but what the fuck is that situation about?
It's frightening.
And there's this brilliant essay written about the moral vulnerabilities in medical culture
and how future doctors are sort of groomed to commit mass atrocities.
There's so many structures in place.
So this medical student, Alessandra Coliani at Johns Hopkins, sort of examines the harm
caused by doctors throughout history.
Human doctors participated in torture at Guantanamo Bay, mercy killings at Hurricane Katrina,
and of course, Nazi Germany.
And she found that doctors were more likely to become members of the SS than the general
population.
And like, why is that?
And it's because of all of the things in medical culture.
We're kind of taught to kind of suck it up and we have to be tougher.
We have to cause pain to heal.
And we don't really examine all of the ways we become desensitized to harms.
And we're looking for like the greater good.
And the way that we're viewing animals as a benefit to human beings, we're kind of objectifying
them just like Nazi doctors objectified people.
And it's very much the same thing.
And why we implemented gas chambers in the first place, why we implement ventilation
shutdown, it's because the reality is like having somebody kill individually one by one,
it's hard.
There's a lot of turnover.
There's a lot of moral distress.
The best way is to like distance people from it.
And the same reasons gas chambers were used in Nazi Germany are the same reasons gas chambers
are being used on animals now.
And we really need to examine that.
But it's like, you can't really talk about that.
But all of the detachment and everything that we are taught in medical culture is what leads
us to become susceptible to committing these mass atrocities.
I wholeheartedly agree.
And it's fascinating how we can make parallels between the abuse and exploitation of humans
and of animals.
It proves the point that Darwin was making like a what 200 years ago, that the difference
between humans and animals is a difference of degree.
What can we do about these gas chambers?
What is happening in the front of fighting against them?
And how can we participate in the fight?
Well, what we did is the AVMA is coming out with their new guidelines for humane slaughter.
And we submitted comments on those guidelines.
We don't know they're currently working on the draft.
We don't know when it'll be out.
But I encourage people to share clips of this gas chamber footage online, on social media.
Whenever somebody talks about humanely raised pigs, ask them, how are the pigs killed?
Are they killed like this?
And show a little one minute clip of the pigs dying in the gas chamber.
This is how 113.5 million pigs are killed.
No matter how humanely they are raised on whatever farm, this is how they're killed.
What are we doing here?
So yeah, come to ourhonor.org.
Sign up.
Sign our petition.
Sign our statement.
And humainslaughter.org is our other website that we have for this.
So you can look at all of the frequently asked questions.
What are the alternatives?
I go through the different alternatives that are available and the problems with all of
those alternatives.
So educate yourselves, educate other people, and share this content widely.
And you have clips of that footage, but I think that you have six hours of footage of...
It's actually...
Oh my God, how many?
16 hours of total footage.
16, wow.
Yeah, but there's some one minute clips that are easier to share on social media and Twitter
and Instagram and Facebook.
Okay.
The next fight I want to talk about and that your organization is leading is that of...
Well, I will read the point.
We also urge the American Veterinary Medical Association to consider exploitation's role
when setting sustainability policies.
So you're highlighting the environmental impact of animal exploitation here.
And I think it's a very interesting point.
So could you expand on that?
Yeah, for the first time, the AVMA at their convention brought up sustainability, but
they're talking about the greening of veterinary practices, like use more recycling and things
like that.
And it's like, wait, there's this huge issue that we're not talking about.
And Martha Smith Blackmore, she's a delegate, and she took to the stage and said, we really
need to address the elephant in the room, which is animal agriculture.
And somebody, a poultry veterinarian stood up and responded and says, they got really
defensive and was like, if you think we're not taking this seriously, we are taking this
seriously.
And it's like, what they're doing is using dairy digesters, where now in California,
many dairies get more money by selling low carbon fuel standard credits than they get
by selling milk.
And we're throwing how many gallons of milk away in schools.
40% of the kids toss the milk cartons out in the trash without even drinking them.
We've got 1.6 billion pounds of government cheese stored.
And we're selling low carbon fuel standard credit using dairy digesters.
And it's outrageous.
Meanwhile, if we transition to plant-based nutrient production in place of beef and dairy,
that would free up around 700 million acres of land in the United States.
So veterinarians really have to take the lead in advocating for animals and advocating for
a switch to slaughter free forms of nutrient production.
Yeah, and I think that in terms of fighting for the environment and against climate change,
this should be a priority because this is the top five, if not the number one reason
for pollution out there and destruction of environments and so on.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And our populations are growing.
And animal agriculture is making this argument that in order to feed 10 billion people, we
have to prioritize animal agriculture.
It's like, no, we're not going to be able to feed the planet and have a healthy planet
if we're eating this much in animal products.
So we really have to switch to plant-based nutrition.
Yeah.
I hear a lot of farmers talk proudly about how they are feeding the world, feeding the
country, feeding the community.
And I want to say, Bill, you're feeding the people who can afford meat and you're destroying
the environment and destroying those lands that should be used for plant-based diets,
sources of nutrition in a better world.
But here we are.
Yeah.
And now they're going into other countries, industrialized animal agriculture is going
to Africa and the pharmaceutical companies are loving it because the biggest customer
is animal agriculture.
If you think we sell a lot of medications to humans, that's nothing in comparison to
the antibiotics and vaccines that pharmaceutical companies sell to animals.
And so now you have these whole new markets opening up and the growth in pharmaceuticals
expected, all of the investments made there.
And we really have to say, I think people in the pharmaceutical industry and in animal
agriculture should really start to feel the pressure that an end is coming and investments
really need to be made elsewhere, not in this antiquated model that causes so much harm.
Yeah.
The antibiotic era coming to an end, this is truly frightening and I had Catherine
Besh, I don't remember which episode it was, but she's the founder of Animal Sanctuary
in Vietnam and she was telling me how the animal industry was pushing dairy on the Vietnamese
people.
And in her time in Vietnam, she saw how the children were now eating lots of yogurt, lots
of milk, and this is not even native to their culture in terms of feeding yourself.
And yeah, it's fascinating and it's dangerous.
And she was also telling me how Vietnam has the highest rate of antibiotic resistance
in the world.
So that's another problem.
And I was considering Vietnam as a vacation spot.
Now I don't.
I'm sorry that I don't want to catch some bacteria and then I just know antibiotic will
work on me.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's frightening.
It's food colonialism.
I was arguing with somebody on Twitter who is telling me that New Zealand berries are
the most humane and that I should drink New Zealand milk.
And I'm like, I talked to a livestock vet from New Zealand and he was saying how you
have a huge problem with resistance to dewormers.
And I'm like, what do you think about that?
He's like, oh, that happens.
It's fine.
It's not a big deal.
It's like, oh, because you guys were misusing them.
And the biodiversity loss in New Zealand is a huge threat and it's one of your national
security risks.
And this was caused by introduction of herbivores grazing on habitats.
And now you had to introduce all of these antibiotics and all of these dewormers.
And now there's resistance to these dewormers.
That's threatening the biodiversity and the habitat destruction and habitat loss.
90% of your wetlands are gone.
And you're telling me like I should drink New Zealand milk instead of non animal based
milk.
Like, why?
Like, what's the reason for doing that?
So doctor, tell me, is there a fight you want to talk about and that you're leading with
your organization and I haven't asked you about?
We are also addressing the harmful use of animals in medical school training, veterinary
school training.
People don't realize that veterinary students have to kill their patients often in veterinary
school.
The cadavers that students use to learn anatomy, they're often animals purchased from bioscience
companies purposefully bred for that purpose.
And there's an alternative.
There's humane ethical alternatives, which are willed body programs.
When our own dog, cat, horse, goat passes away, we can donate their body to veterinary school
for veterinary students to learn on.
We don't need to be purposefully breeding animals for veterinary students to learn on.
But also like there are veterinary students who have to anesthetize a healthy animal,
perform one or more surgeries on them, and then kill them before the animal is even allowed
to wake up.
And that is horrifying and against our ethics.
And students are bullied into doing this, worrying that they're going to face a failing
grade, worried that they're going to be ostracized.
And the threats are really ramping up.
I feel like the veterinary students are even more afraid now to speak up when it's very
clear there's so much evidence against these sorts of training models when there's so many
more alternatives.
But the students are at the same time more fearful about speaking up.
So we're going to put on some Know Your Rights trainings in the future for veterinary students.
If there's any veterinary students out there, and you feel threatened and you feel like
you can't speak up, reach out to us.
Our honor wants to write to these schools and advocate for change in curriculum that
requires less animal harm.
We're going to come out with the numbers of how many animals are killed at each school
and make a ranking of the most ethical to the least ethical veterinary schools.
And there's going to be a lot more information coming out in that area.
And that's a huge opportunity for change.
And veterinary students shouldn't feel scared.
Just know that animal law attorneys are wanting to take on some sort of case First Amendment
attorneys.
We have your back.
There's a lot you can do and a lot of animals you can save.
And some people say like, oh, what's the most ethical vet school to go to?
And I encourage if you're bold, go to the worst ones.
And because you're going to save more animals by changing the curriculum at the worst schools,
like you could change, you can save thousands of animals by changing the curriculum, whereas
you're not going to save any animals if you go to school that doesn't harm animals.
So that's my philosophy.
So stay tuned and follow us on social media to hear more about that.
Why are they not suing the colleges?
Because this is a traumatizing experience.
I hear about lectures getting cancelled in colleges because they are insensitive.
And then there's this horrible situation going on at your vet school department.
I mean, if this is not a lawsuit, lawsuit material, then I don't know what it is.
And it's it's against our oath.
It's anti the three Rs, like the most welfarist basic.
This isn't even animal rights stuff we're talking about here.
This is like basic just adhering to the ethics of the veterinary profession.
And Gary Francione, you know, back in the day did sue a lot of schools for this.
And sadly, like there's been kind of silence lately, you know, and I feel like, you know,
we really need to ramp that up again.
More lawsuits.
You know, there's so much potential here for change.
I believe you.
And I hope people support your work.
Did you have something to to add to the conversation, Dr. Hey, before we stop the conversation?
That's it.
Just if your vet student reach out, if you're not a vet or veterinarian, still reach out
because we need help.
We need volunteers.
We need people to reach out to their vets and talk about these issues.
And we have handouts that you can even give to your vet if you go in person.
If you want a stack of them, email us and we'll mail you some so you can give to all
the veterinary offices in your area.
So please get involved and follow us on social media.
Amazing.
Thank you so much, doctor, for having taken the time to answer my questions.
And thank you for your great work.
This is such inspiring work.
Those are the things I want to hear.
And yeah, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
It was fun.
Thank you, everyone, for listening.
I hope Dr. Heath's message resonated with you.
Please tell your friends about the show and why you love it so much.
Let's inspire more people to take action.
If you're listening to this on Apple Podcast, please consider leaving me a good review.
And on that topic, I want to thank a certain John who has left me a five star review.
He wrote, I'll stick to it as long as I can.
I'm not vegan, but have been leaning that direction much farther now.
Thank you so much, John, for being my very first review on Apple Podcast.
The Vegan Report is also on YouTube.
And a certain WIC entry left this comment on episode 10 about vegan conservatives.
Lovely and insightful podcast as always.
I always found it interesting that there aren't more conservative who are vegan.
Regarding the more conservative ideals, it's interesting to hear conservatives talk about
small government and being opposed to government handouts, but animal agriculture subsidies
don't even register.
Great episode.
Well, great point, WIC entry.
And thank you so much for your support and your kind words.
Finally, you can always reach out to me on Instagram at veganreportpodcast.
Thank you again for listening.
Take care and see you next Tuesday for a new episode.