Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.
If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure
where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with
passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special
contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Today, we are going
to talk about vegan conservatives. I always perceived veganism as being a movement under
criticism by the right and the left. Some conservatives talk of vegans as being a joke,
being woke, they say veganism is a cult, and of course there's this focus on the importance of
masculinity and this is often associated with eating meat or hunting. However, criticism also
comes from liberals who dismiss vegans by labeling them as being anti-indigenous people,
they're also called elitist, capitalist, inaccessible, caring more about animals than
people of color, I've heard it all. And liberal and conservative governments from around the world
have always been great allies of the animal industry. But what I'm interested in is the
political discourse from within the vegan movement. I have to say all the vegans I know are on the
left, and that perception seems to be backed up by various studies. One report from Gallup dating
back to 2018 read as follow. Self-described liberal Americans are among the most likely
to be vegetarian or vegan. Around one in 10 liberals, about 11% say they are vegetarian,
and 5% say they are vegans. And it makes sense, because for many vegans veganism is an extension
of their liberalism, if not at least a position consistent with their political values. Then
there's a good portion of apolitical or independent vegans, but my real question is, where are the
conservative vegans? In 8 years of being vegan, I never met a single conservative vegan, and it's
not just my bias, because that same Gallup report found that only 2% of conservatives say they are
either vegetarian or vegan. 2% of conservatives compared to 11% of liberals. And my first reaction
was to think I need to find vegan conservatives and talk with them, understand where they're coming
from, and maybe get some insights on how to better advocate for veganism among conservatives. Because
I consider that 2% as a failure to advocate veganism to conservatives, and someone needs to do
something. So here I am taking some first steps. I published an ad on the subreddit vegan, and two
brave vegan conservatives answered my invitation. Both of you, Andress, Michelle, welcome to the
podcast. Thank you. Thanks, Ray. So can we start by some introductions? Michelle, would you like to
start? Certainly. My name is Michelle. I'm almost 49. In October, I'll be 49. And I live in Florida.
So deep in the South. I moved here eight years ago, actually, from Alabama. And I have been vegan
about four years now. Well, my name is Andress. What a coincidence, we're both from Florida.
I am a first generation Cuban American though. So my parents came from Cuba in the 60s, and then made
a life for themselves in the States. And I was born and raised in South Florida. I moved away for a
little while, but I'm back here. I am a cyclist, a musician, and also vegan. I've been vegan for
five years and meat free for 10 in total now. And yeah, I'm eager to get this talk going.
So happy birthday in advance, Michelle. Thank you. I'm wondering, why did you choose to appear as
guests on this podcast? Because it can be a bit intimidating to talk publicly about your position.
So I'm curious, what made you want to become guests on the vegan import?
Would you like me to go first? Sure. Okay, so I saw your bet. And I was like, Oh, because you know,
there's just this huge political divide. And I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna take a chance. I'm
gonna put it out there. Because maybe we can find something that will give us that common ground that
will bring us all together. There's actually more conservative vegans than you can even begin to
imagine. I'm part of a conservative vegan Facebook group. We're a small group. There's only 1500.
But that's 1500 people strong, you know, and I feel like that's just in Florida, maybe there's more.
And so I love that you opened this up. And I think it's a great thing.
Yeah, similar. Anytime there's some discussion about veganism and right wing politics, or just
politics in general, I do like to chime in. I like to remind people that vegans don't all fit into
one box politically. Gary Yerofsky, if you're familiar, he has a very famous speech that's
a lot of people's first introduction to veganism. All right, good afternoon, everybody. My name is
Gary Yerofsky. Please take a moment and jot down my email address and my website in case you want
to contact me later on. Today, we're going to talk about the world's forgotten victims, animals,
and the world's oldest and strongest addiction, meat. And he at the start of his speech, he's saying,
you don't have to change anything. You don't have to give up your friend group, your religious
beliefs, your political beliefs, just leave animals alone. I am not trying to take you away
from your religion. No religion mandates meat eating. The golden rule states do unto others
as you would have done unto yourself. Animals qualify as others, and thou shalt not kill.
The four most important yet most ignored words in all religious teachings. There's not an asterisk
next to that commandment saying, unless you walk on all fours, have fur, feathers, horns, beaks,
or gills. You can keep your friends, your politics, and your patriotism, still watch your favorite TV
shows and listen to your favorite music, even if it's Ted Nugent. So I like to remind people that
you don't have to abandon these beliefs or change who you are, really. It's all about just kind of
aligning your actions with your beliefs. And a lot of us believe that animal abuse is bad. So
regardless of what you believe politically, economically, religiously, you can live in a way
that leaves animals alone. So I definitely want to highlight that. And so I'm grateful for the
opportunity.
Yeah, who doesn't know Gary? I mean, I think he's the one without hair.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And he's got a lot of clips. And just a very famous, about an hour long
speech. He did a tour in a bunch of universities in the early 2010s, which lined up with the time
that my sister was a college student. And she became vegetarian through him. And I wish
eventually vegan, but she's still vegetarian now. And I only found out that it was through Gary,
like this past year, she was like, yeah, I was this bald guy. He was, you know, very passionate.
And I was like, that's, that's our guy. We love that guy, Gary Yerovsky. Michelle, check him out
if you have it.
I was just gonna say I've never heard of him. That I'm, let me write that down. What was his
last name?
So strange last name. Y O U R O F S K Y.
Nice. Okay, I will absolutely check him out. Yeah. And listeners who haven't, go check him out. I
mean, he's great. He's very charismatic. So let me ask you, what has been your conservative journey
so far? Basically, I want to know, why do you identify as a conservative or right leading?
Does it have bearing in your personal life? Or is it some simply a political choice? So
here's a bulk of questions for you. Andres, would you like to start?
Sure. Yeah, I, I just want to start by saying that I feel like I'm still learning. I'm always
willing to hear new positions. I love having heady debates and just talking about ideas and
exchanging ideas. So I feel that I'm, I'm constantly learning. And my feet are maybe not firmly
planted in conservative ground. I, there are certainly a lot of positions I have that are
right leaning economically. And they're just like a few tenants that I believe individual liberty,
limited government, free market economics, and then probably the one that's most popular.
And in this camp would be pro-life and it's secular pro-life, not, not involving any religion. It's,
it's simply acknowledging that there are defenseless lives that are being harmed and so wanting to
protect that. So in a way, I see so many similarities between conservatism or certain
values and conservatism and, and veganism, but we can, we can get on that and we can, we can
get on that in a little while. Just more about the journey. My, my parents, as I mentioned,
are Cuban. They came when there was a communist revolution in their country. So there's a lot of
trauma with that. And growing up, I didn't really understand it. In fact, I somewhat, somewhat
selfishly dismissed their experiences and their views as just saying, well, they're just scared
of anything remotely liberal or left leaning. But growing up, I'm, I'm 32 now. And in the last five
years, I would say that there's been somewhat of a, an embracing of a lot of the things that
they were telling me about individual responsibility, individual rights, you know, being against
things like high taxation and stuff like that, that just started to make sense to me in the US.
We had a, an election in 2020. So I was thinking a lot about politics then in a way that was deeper
than just what my friend group or the people around me were talking about. As I mentioned earlier,
I'm a musician, I'm a cyclist. I have hobbies and interests that are typically seen as things that
more left leaning people are involved with artsy people, progressive people, and I think that
so I have a lot of that in my life. But when I sit down and think about these topics, and what I
think is best for society, and what I think is best for the world, a lot of it lines up with
libertarian and conservative thinking. So that's, that's kind of where I'm at now. But again, in
taking a position of very, you know, open to, to debate and open to new ideas, but certainly having
some, some affiliation there with, with conservative thinking and rightly, rightly thinking.
Yeah, and I have to say, as someone who comes from an immigrant background, you know, I was born in
North Africa, it is common among immigrants to be conservative. I mean, it's a, it's a common
political stance. So what about you, Michelle?
So you know, I thought long and hard about this one, when I got your questions, and
my mother has passed now, she actually passed away when she was 48. So it's, it's been almost,
well, yeah, it's been 25 years now. But if I had to look back on it, I think she was what
is known as like, an old school, you know, she was 100% for women's rights, where my father was
always very, very conservative. And they divorced when I was young. So I got this nice mixture.
And I think for me, my conservative values are more deeply ingrained in my Christian values. You
know, I just going with the whole pro life thing, well, why do we stop there at a woman's body? And
that's what kind of like embeds me in the vegan. Why does it stop at a woman's body? Why not an
animal's body as well? They they have the right to life as well, just as much as we do. Why are we
any better than that animal? So, you know, it, it was an interesting upbringing, I will say that
much. My mother has a brother who is gay. So I grew up with him. And I guess me coming in and being
more ingrained as a conservative as I got older, it was more about less government. And, you know,
people are fighting for the right to their own body. Well, that happens when you have less
government. If the government has their finger less on your body, then that's what happens when
you're a conservative. And that's what we fight for all the time. I don't want big brother telling
me what I can and can't do. I don't want him taxing me into the grave. Get out of my life,
get out of my pocketbook. And just let me live my life. I'm a hardcore patriot. You know, I fight
for my country. And, you know, I've never joined the military. But I the little things that I do
in my life on a daily basis, that's just that's my my take on life.
So let's talk about if you don't mind that that pro life position and the link with veganism,
because I've seen a lot of conservatives make a link between their pro life, their pro life,
between their pro life values, and their veganism. And I have to say, I'm not very familiar with the
the abortion debate since I'm Canadian. This is not something present in the political landscape,
the Canadian political landscape. It is more of an American debate. So who wants to take the mic?
I'll just comment here. And I suppose it is quite interesting that Michelle takes it a little bit
more from a religious perspective, I have thoughts on religion, and I'm, you know, I'm not dismissive
of religion in the slightest that I was raised Catholic, but I don't think that that's where a
lot of my decision making is influenced by. Although I do have, you know, my thoughts and
my beliefs, I think that for the for the movement to be more widely accepted, I think it's, it's
better to take it from a secular approach. But maybe that's more of like an activism tactic. But
just from my own perspective, I do see so many similarities between, between veganism and pro
life ism, I have a few of them written down here, and some that I've got from the
these certain like groups online that are like considered consistent life ethics. So they have
like viewpoints that are consistent across the board on various topics, including what we eat
and and issues like abortion. So similarities between veganism and pro life ism both are
centered around the idea of respecting life, especially that of the innocent, the innocent
vulnerable, defenseless. The second point concern for the right to life is present in both.
Number three concern for the rights to not be harmed and to bodily autonomy. So, yeah,
we hear a lot about bodily autonomy in the pro choice movement, where they're saying we
shouldn't regulate what happens to a woman, but they're forgetting about the victim. And a lot
of that happens with veganism as well. They say I, you know, it's my personal choice to eat
whatever I want, disregarding or forgetting that there's a victim involved with their choices.
So, you know, we can get into into more parallels. But I think that that is already showing how,
even with a lot of the language that non vegans use to like dehumanize animals, a lot of pro
choice people will use similar tactics to dehumanize. It's just a clump of cells. It's,
you know, it's not a human yet, things like that. So it actually, interestingly, I became vegan
first. And veganism led me to being pro life. And I've talked about this a little bit online and
in certain, you know, subreddits and, you know, Instagram posts and things like that. And I've
seen other people agree and say that, you know, it really makes sense if you think about what's
you're fighting for with veganism, what you're advocating for, a lot of it lines up with
protecting vulnerable and defenseless lives in the womb as well.
Michel, did you want to add something?
So for me, like I said, I grew up in a house with my mom who was an old school Democrat. So
the idea of abortion when I was younger, it was just something that, you know, women were allowed
to do. My husband and I tried for many years to get pregnant. He is a black man. And he actually
brought me deeper into my conservative roots, because he's very conservative, like, as far
conservative as you can get, you know, he just, we lead a lot of people. And he's a very, very
modest lifestyle. And he feels that that's just the way things should be. But when we finally were
able to get pregnant with our son, we were given some devastating news that he would be born with
not just Down syndrome, but spina bifida. So as a woman, I felt like a failure, I tried and tried
for years to give this man a child. And here we were faced with this devastating news. And my
doctor said, Well, we can we can do an abortion. And he was like, Absolutely not. No, he said,
if this is what God is entrusting to us to raise this child and bring him into the world, then who
are we to question his plan? And I was just blown away by, you know, his sentiment. And we are
fortunate enough, my husband took me to church, and we prayed and prayed and prayed, not for our
own selfish benefit, but for the benefit of our child that God would bless us and let this child
be born healthy and some miraculous. I don't know. He's he's 17 now and healthy is a horse pardon
the pun, but he's he's extremely healthy and a very smart man. And just, I mean, when people meet
this kid, I have people come up to me all the time, I work in a bank, and they're like, Oh,
I know your son. He's just such a shining light. And you know what, had I made that choice back
then, and not had my husband's support, he wouldn't be here today. So I feel like when when women are
so quick to snuff out that light, you could be giving up something that's just gonna shine so
brightly in this universe. That's that's a touching story. And just shows the power of Yeah, making
making reasoned and and informed choices and not not jumping to conclusions. A lot of times,
I feel that people are pressured, especially in the US to to go to that option rather than
considering other options. You know, it just linking it back to veganism, there, there are
other options to for how to give ourselves nutrients and how to feed ourselves. And there
are other options to, to, you know, giving, not not to giving birth, there are other options to
how you raise the child and like caregiving services and all that. To to end the life is,
I would say is not an option, right. So in both with regarding what we eat or what we wear,
and lives that we bring into this into this world. So my, I'm sorry, I just wanted to say,
like my whole pregnancy, my husband spent the whole time researching how to care for a child
with Down syndrome and with spina bifida. So it was just, I'm very, I'm very blessed, like to have
him in my life. And he's such a good, strong support. And, you know, just the fact that he
was willing to do all that to make sure that our child made it here in this world. And if we were
going to be faced with such things, just it's amazing to me. The fact that you were ready to
welcome that child, even with his disabilities. I mean, that's something truly, I don't know how
many families would have felt courageous enough to go ahead and do it. But let's talk about the
vegan side then the vegan label. I have basically the same question for you than the conservative
one, but in terms of veganism. So what has been your vegan journey so far? Why did you become
vegan? What was the reaction of family and friends? How did you handle that transition?
Basically, how did it happen? And why? You had to go first, Michelle. Sure. So mine is actually a
very interesting tale. For many years, I struggled with my health. After trying to get pregnant with
my son, we were actually pregnant 14 times trying to have him. So we had 14 miscarriages, and then
along came my son. So I struggled with my weight. And being pregnant back to back like that, it
just it wreaked so much havoc on my body. And my sister, my older sister, she has been just
forever in my face about my health. She's like, you have to eat healthy, you have to eat. She's,
she's, I like to call her a vegetarian. Because while she's primarily vegan, she does
occasionally eat cheese and things like that. Although I think I have swayed her away from it
finally. So you know, she was forever in my face about my health. She was like, you need to
get this under control, your weight's out of control. And now you're diabetic. And it was just,
okay, so what do I do? She said, I need you to go watch this documentary on Netflix is called fat,
sick and nearly dead. I fair enough, I'm going to watch it. And I put it off and put it off and
put it off because that's just my big sister yammering in my ear. And who wants to hear that?
But I finally just done. No, it was like right before the pandemic. Shortly before I was like,
I went to the doctor, doctor said, your a one C is 11.4. And I don't know if you know anything
about an a one C, but that's dangerously high. Like you're, you're just, you're on the path for
death. And it kind of shook me because I was almost at the age that my mother was when she died,
she died from cancer. And I didn't want to leave my children. I have two sons. The oldest one still
lives in Alabama and I have two grandsons from him and I didn't want to leave them. And so I was
like, you know what, I'm going to go home. I'm going to watch this documentary. And you know how
Netflix is like, Oh, watch this one too. So then I watched what the hell again, mind blown. And then
ultimately it took me to food, Inc. And that was just like, I know the term that liberals love to
use is that they're woke, but on the right, we like to say that we're awake. And that was my awakening.
I was like, Oh, Oh my gosh. I had no idea. Here I am this red blooded American who, you know,
supports hunting and you know, all these other things and steak and burgers and cause that's
American. Right. And I was just like, but what's happening behind these closed doors, that's not
American. I actually wrote it down because it's a quote that I love. Paul McCartney said it best.
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian. Well, I think they would actually
be vegan, Paul. It just, and then I've watched Dominion, which was just horrifying. It was two
hours of, you know, people love horror movies. Well, that's, that's a horror movie in itself.
I was just wrecked crying. I could not believe it. It was just, so for me, I cannot even begin to fathom
using animal products. I have so many animals in my house. It's ridiculous. People make jokes
and say that I'm like my own personal zoo. And I always, always considered myself an animal lover.
Yeah. But when I was a meat eater, I wasn't an animal lover. I was a lover of pets, not of animals.
Now I can officially say that I love all animals because I'm very conscientious of what I wear
and what I'm eating and what I'm using for products. Because my first instinct is to go and look,
Oh, does this have some kind of an animal byproduct in it? Because maybe it does. And they've just
labeled it some weird chemical name and I don't want any part of that. And so that's, that's what
basically took me to being a vegan. And after watching those movies, I made my husband and my
son, I'm like, you have to come watch this. And they came in the room and we all sat and watched
it. And everybody was just like, Oh my gosh, I said, we're doing this. We are doing this. And my
husband being the ultra supportive person he is, he was like, okay. And so I went into the kitchen,
I boxed everything up. I called my son's best friend's mother and I was like, Hey, do you want
a box of like meat and cheese and milk and butter and all this other stuff? She was like, okay.
And she came to get it and she's like, what's going on? And I'm like, we're going vegan. And
the look on her face was just like, what? Like deer in headlights, literally. She's like, what do
you mean you're going vegan? I'm like, yeah, we're going vegan. She's like, what exactly does that
mean? I said, Oh, no meat, no cheese, no butter, just to put it in basics, like no animal products.
She's like, well, what are you going to eat? And I love that question. I get that all the time.
People say to me, well, what do you eat? Do I look like I'm starving? Do I? No, not even in the
slightest. I eat very good. I eat very healthy. We do occasionally like to eat the
foam meats because I think my husband still struggles with giving up the idea of like eating
a meat for me. I could eat, you know, rice and beans and vegetables every day. I'm 100% a
vegetable person. He's not, I think it's just his, sorry, guys, I think it's his maleness
that he has that like struggle with letting go of the idea of eating a burger or eating chicken,
which just horrifies me the idea of it now. But so that's, that's basically what brought us to it.
And I love the journey that we're on. They just continue to follow and, you know, I'll bring them
new little tidbits. I'm like, Hey, did you know this? Come watch this. And they love it. They eat
it right up. That's an incredible story. That's something. I mean, that never happens. I wish
more people would react that way and make those changes, you know, in a heartbeat after watching
those documentaries. And but I can, I can relate to your story because in my case, I became vegan
overnight, basically, once I was convinced, I was convinced and there was no turning back.
So I understand that that feeling. So interest, what was your story?
Yeah, well, Michelle, I just wanted to comment. I like that you had a balance of
like health information first, which is
quite objective, I would say, you know, the information that the
research and the data that we have now, but then also getting like the emotional aspect
as well with the animals. And that is also undeniable with the compassion that all humans
are equipped with. It's undeniable that no one would want to participate in something like that
and that it's unjustifiable to. So I just wanted to comment on that. It's very nice. For me,
thankfully, it was very easy, always, you know, I was very, very, very, very, very, very, very
good at it. I always had supportive parents always had supportive partners and friends. So really no,
no issues with that at all at age 22, a little later than I should, well, definitely later than
I should have. I became vegetarian, my sister was vegetarian is still is my girlfriend at the time
was vegetarian. So it was like, you know, influenced all around me. But it didn't happen until I was
like, you know, I thought that there was a lot more preparation involved or a lot more
like research that you had to do. But really, it's it's like a moral decision. And then once that
is switched, like once that switches is flipped, you can look into like, okay, how should I feed
myself and then you're good to go. So that switch got flipped at 22. And then the vegan switch got
flipped at 27. And there were like weak attempts while still being vegetarian to go fully vegan,
because I knew that it was better. And I knew that I cared about animals and didn't want to be the
reason that they suffered. So it but but it didn't really click in with my behaviors until 27. And
that was well, I want to say overnight, but I guess it was five years in the making that I became
vegan. But once once that switch was flipped, I mean, it was it was a one day to the next that I
just dropped all animal products. And yeah, it was always supportive from from everyone, I didn't
really receive any any pushback. But in the last maybe two years, I've gotten a lot more into vegan
advocacy, activism, and into like talking about it more, I am passionate about telling people about
how wonderful this has been in my life. And in not just how I feel physically more energy and
clear skin and a bunch of other things, but also just like emotionally and the person that I am,
I've always been someone who is nonviolent, somebody who who believes in peace. So in, in those ways, I
feel like it just lined up perfectly with with veganism. And I also like to think of it as a
justice movement. I like to remind people that you don't have to care about animals, this isn't
necessarily although it does help. And Michelle, I'm so glad that you are an animal lover. But but I
also like to remind people that it's not something that requires so much compassion. Because when we
think about other injustices in the world, what women's rights, gay rights, you know, Africans who
are enslaved, we don't think about them in a way that say, well, we should be compassionate towards
them and afford them a little leniency here. We say that as a baseline, this is the least we can do
is leave them alone, right? Allow them to exist, allow this person to exist, and and leave the, you
know, leave people alone to not be under your rule under your dominion under whatever, whatever
oppression you're putting on gays, women's slaves, whatever it is. And so it's just extending that
now to animals. And it's it's to recognize that there is no justification, right? It's an injustice,
it's it's discriminating based on species. And and there is no justification. And that's like,
that's where the the ethical and moral baseline comes in. And I feel like it's less about
feelings and emotions. And it's more logical. And it's more just a rational decision. And especially
with the conservative crowd, I like to not that I've spoken with many conservatives about this,
but every now and then I do somebody who shares certain things that I believe in, I say, you know,
there are a lot of parallels, I know that in the media, veganism gets painted as a left wing thing,
or it gets painted as like an overly emotional thing. Like, you know, it's people who care about
animals, and they're so empathetic and so compassionate that they can't imagine this.
And yeah, that might be the issue or the reason for some people. And I'm glad that people are
loaded with empathy and compassion. But there are a lot of people also who do it from a purely
logical and rational standpoint, there's no justification for this, you wouldn't like this
treatment if it was unto you or unto any one of your family members. And to afford other people,
their liberty is a huge part of my conservative views, my libertarian views. In fact, libertarian
also has other words that some people use for it, I've heard it be referred to or described as
voluntary ism, which is the idea that all actions must be voluntary, you cannot coerce
another person to give you money via taxation or property. And you cannot like, yeah, there's no
no force or coercion. I've also heard it be referred to as consensual ism. So you must consent to all
actions. And I see your your heads nodding, we see how this is exactly in alignment with with veganism
we don't the animal doesn't consent to have her milk taken from her that's for her children,
you know, the animal does not consent to having their head chopped off so that you can enjoy their
flesh. That's their own flesh, they have the right to their own body. And a lot of that is linked to
libertarianism. One last thing about libertarianism, a core tenant of this philosophy or belief system
is what's known as the non aggression principle and AP non aggression principle. And it's in the
name there. It's a principle that libertarians live by that says, I don't hurt you, you don't hurt me,
I don't take things from you or force you to give me things. And, and similarly, I expect the same
from you. And then apply that to government apply that to social structures. And I think you've got
a well oiled machine and a good running society. And I also think that it's like fundamentally,
a lot of people believe this too, right, like this, the individual unit is, is the most fundamental
and the most important one. Without individuals, we don't have communities. So I like to kind of
draw those parallels as well. So that's my my vegan journey so far. Those are interesting points. And
it even applies to liberals, I think. One liberal I'm thinking about is a natural vegan. She's a
YouTuber. I don't know if you heard of her. But she talks openly about how she's not an animal lover.
She has been vegan for years and years. But what convinced her was, you know, ethical arguments,
philosophical arguments. That's what I get from her position. But in preparation for this interview,
I looked up reasons why there are less conservatives who are vegan than liberals.
And one of the reasons given was how there was no social support for the veganism of some
conservatives. And I wonder, you know, you in your own lives, you had the benefit of having
a supportive family around you. In the case of Michelle, who even all became vegan. But
what about your interaction with other fellow conservatives? Was it always like this supportive
attitude toward your lifestyle? Or was it sometimes, you know, there was a clash or maybe
some judgment on your choices? Michelle, would you like to answer?
I would say for the most part, it's been pretty, I don't know, since I went vegan, I've kind of made
my social circle smaller, because it's not always so well accepted or received. My father just kind
of shakes his head at me. However, when we go for Sunday dinner, I don't eat what they're eating,
I make something else. And my father is always in the background going, Oh, that smells so good.
What is that? And I'm like, Oh, come and take a taste. And he'll come and take a taste. And he's
like, Oh, my God, what did it? So of course, you know, I tried to give him the recipe. And he's
getting older. He's in his seventies. So I'm like, you should eat healthy, you know, I want you here
longer. Like I lost my mom way too soon. I don't want to lose you too. And you got to stop eating
so much junk. Eat healthier. The people at my work, they're actually pretty supportive. Like,
you know, we tend to go out to dinners occasionally. And so they always try to find somewhere that's
either vegan, or has vegan options. Me personally, I prefer if I'm going to go to a restaurant for it
to be fully vegan, just because I've seen craft contamination, I've worked in kitchens, and it's
just, I'm sitting there laughing somewhere, you know, my husband, as I said, super supportive,
my son is super supportive. My oldest son, not so much, he loves to send me like horrible mean
vegan news. And he thinks they're funny. So yeah, there's that. But it's okay. I like to take little
digs at him too. And then we just laugh at each other and move on. Because you know what, at the
end of the day, I have a great sense of humor. Some say I even have a dark sense of humor,
to some degree. So I just kind of laugh at him and move on. In fact, there's a place here in Florida,
in Orlando. That's where I go to that. That's where I want to take my non-vegan friends to.
Sorry, Michelle. Yeah, I'm not hearing you well, all of a sudden.
Now? It sounds better, I think. Yeah. Okay. Let me Yeah, can you can hear me now? Yes,
yes, this is better. Okay, so sorry about that. Sorry. Is it this kitchen, by the way? Is it? Oh,
my god, no. But I love that place. Let me tell you, we went there and ate one time and the strawberry
milkshake like, you know, people always say, Oh, well, what do you miss since going vegan? Okay,
so one thing I used to say was, Oh, man, the strawberry milkshakes from Chick-fil-A. Hello,
can I get an amen? And when I went to eat those, and I saw they had one, I was like, Yeah, let me
get one of those. Sorry, they would put Chick-fil-A out of business overnight. Their strawberry
milkshakes are phenomenal. But no, it's the Winter Park Biscuit Company. You know, the place that
has a line around the block. Yeah, I have a t shirt in the closet right here. I love that place. My
dad's like, No way. This is not chicken. I'm like, Yeah, it's like witchcraft. Right? Yeah, super
delicious. So good. But that's our that's our vegan junk food. You know, like, we don't eat like that
on a typical. But that's just that's our little guilty pleasure when we go there to eat. Yeah,
there is a new place too. It's called Dharma. I don't know if you've heard that place. Yeah,
Dixie Dharma. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we my girlfriend and I love traveling for food. So we'll go to
Orlando. We'll go to Tampa, St. Pete. Have you been to Paisley Vegan Kitchen in Melbourne?
I don't think so. Gotta try it. They even have a donut shop connected to it. And oh man, like,
the black and seitan is my absolute favorite. So good. My husband always gets the chicken and
waffles. Yep. Cool. Paisley Vegan. I got it here. Yeah, so good. Take some notes listeners. Yeah.
So so where were we? I know that you had a question there, Ryan. But I
Yeah, so I was wondering, you know, what makes being vegan and conservative difficult and
or rare? And maybe it was the lack of social support. Yeah, I would say that I'm the odd one
out. And again, like my social circle, in fact, a lot of my friends aren't even totally sure about
my political leanings. I think some of them have an idea and some of them have even made comments.
But again, I'm a musician. I'm an artist. I'm a cyclist. I hang around with a lot of lefty,
progressive type people. You know, so so that's my friend group where I think maybe some of them are
just apolitical. And if they do say something, it might be a little more left leaning progressive.
But I I'm the one who has maybe read up a little bit more. I have done done research, and I've
thought about these things. And I am also less afraid to say that I think this is the view of
the world that would improve society or that is is better for the world. So I wouldn't say that I
have had any issues, because if anything, I'm I'm the odd one out. So I'm, you know, by being vegan,
it's it's pretty accepted. But being conservative is the part that's that's where I'm facing
issues. I already have some friends who've said a few nasty things to me thinking that I'm,
you know, racist or a bigot or something when a lot of my viewpoints come from the opposite of
that from embracing the individual from giving everyone an opportunity and not taking away from
others and giving others so that there's like more dependency on on government programs and all that.
Like I, I think that if everybody did their best, we would have a better society. So that's that's
kind of just a summary there. And, and I one point that I do want to make, because there, I do have
some conservative friends, and one of them is actually one who turned me on to pro life thinking.
And I said, Oh, you know, and I made a point that maybe a lot of people bring up about abortion. And
I was like, Well, you know, it's gonna, it may stop crime, and it may, you know, help certain
situations socially. This is a few years ago that I had these thoughts. And he said, Well, that's,
don't you think that's a little bit like eugenics saying that we should kill off this population
because they might be problematic for society and allow these people to live. It's an unfair
generalization. And, you know, I agreed with him. And so he's he's my conservative friend.
And we have talked about veganism, and he is in total agreement, other than his behavior. You know,
we've talked about it. And and he, you know, jokingly one time, or perhaps not so jokingly,
but he was like, Stop talking, because you're going to turn me vegan. I was making points
to everything I was I was rebutting everything that he was saying I was linking it to conservative
values linking he's a Catholic person. So linking it to stewardship that we have upon earth and God's
creatures and would he be proud if Jesus came back to earth today and saw it. So you know,
I was making all the points. And I think the only reason why he is not is precisely the the lack of
social support, the stigma around like what a vegan is a vegan is a screechy, annoying, loud
person who makes you feel bad. And it's all these pre programmed ideas of what a vegan is. And he's
saying, Well, I can't, I can't become part of that. Like, that's not, that's not who I am. I'm not
that type of person. So, again, going back to the question of why I signed up to come on here is to
show that you don't have to be screechy, annoying vegan to just believe that animals deserve to be
left alone and not treated as objects or commodities. So and that you can be somebody
who has right wing ideas or conservative and adopt these morals, because it doesn't take any
privilege. It doesn't take any social class, or any wealth or anything to become vegan. You don't
have to be of a particular background to adopt morals. It's not a privilege to adopt morals. So
kind of a lot of answers there for you, Ryan, to pick through. But I do, yeah, just want to maybe
reiterate that, that I think way more conservatives would adopt this ethical stance, if it didn't have
that negative social stigma, which is why I think we have to represent ourselves in numbers, Michelle,
as as conservatives, and then Ryan, just as a level headed, rational person who likes talking
about this, and, and wants to promote this idea that within all of us is probably already there,
right, causing unnecessary harm is wrong. That, that's a baseline, I think most people can agree
with. So just just showing up and showing people that you can be level headed, rational, and calm,
and and have these views. And I 100% agree. I mean, I don't think this should not be a political
issue. This is the mass murder of billions of sentient beings. We should not put it in a in
the liberal or conservative spectrum. I think it's just that we should think about it as we need
a lot of people to become vegan and fast, whether they are conservative or liberal, who cares.
But it's more complex than that in reality. And we need to take into account, I think,
the political stance of, of people. And so my next question is, what kind of arguments can we
use with conservatives to influence them and try to advocate for for veganism? Did you ever think
about it? Do you have experience with it? Michelle, I will let you start.
Um, so I actually love this question. Because I remember, you know, just a few short years ago,
I was that person that used to mock and laugh at vegans, you know, I, you know, you see the me and
that's like, oh, the vegans coming over for dinner, we can just send them out into the front yard to
eat the grass. And ha ha ha, those were funny. And I think for bringing people to vegan, right, like,
for me, it was my journey that I took. And I think that they're so we're so quick to put everybody
into a little box. This is what this means. And this is what this means. And this is what this
means. And I think we need to break down the box, get rid of it, shove it out the way, get them in,
teach them, you know, like, find that common ground, there's gonna be something that's gonna
bring somebody in on that common ground. For me, my journey started because of my health,
my I had diabetes, my weight was out of control, I've dropped almost 150 pounds, and my a one c
is in with normal range. Now, I'm more conscientious of what I put in my body. It's not just food for
food, it's food for fuel. And I've always been someone who just I, I love animals. And so that
was it for me, you know, for some people, it's going to be, obviously, it's the ethical, but for
some people, it's going to be the environmental bit of it. And for some people, it's just, there's
always going to be some touch point that we can reach them with. You know, I was watching
Dominion, and when they were inseminating the cows, and I'm thinking as a woman, how can we as women
support an animal being raped? How can we support that? So that you can have milk or burgers or
whatever on your kitchen table? How is that right? Would you support your mother, your sister, your
aunt, your daughter being raped? Absolutely not. It was just so it's it's, I feel like it's little
things like that, you have to find that common ground. And to go base, I just want to touch on
something that Andres had said as well. As a conservative, we are painted one way, we're
painted as, you know, these racist and bigoted and you know what, far from the truth. My husband is
my husband is black. So I'm pretty deep, I guess, in a community where I know lots of black
conservatives. And bigoted, I don't think so. You know, I have family members that are gay, and I
have family members who, you know, identify as trans. And that's their journey. It's not my job
to judge them, you know, it's, and this is coming to my Christian values. That's between you and
God, what you choose to do in your life. At the end of the day, it's between you and God, it's not
my job to stand up here and judge you. I am not going to throw stones when I myself have a glass
house. You know, I've been through so many things in my life and made poor decisions. And now as an
as an older female, I feel like, you know, we we continue to grow, we continue to mature, and we
continue to make new choices. And I think people are so quick to go, well, I identify as this and
identify as that and identify as this. Stop identifying yourself, you're growing, you're
constantly changing. Today, you might be one way and tomorrow another. Just a few years ago, I was
a diehard, you know, carnivore and made fun of vegans. Today, I'm the complete opposite. And I
think people need to stop with the whole identities and just come together, find that common ground.
And let's do what's right. You know, stop harming these animals that have no voice. Let's be their
voice for them. But I'm not, you know, I'm not saying like, go out and dump all the milk out of
the refrigerator at the grocery store, because at the end of the day, it's about supply and demand.
So if you're increasing the supply, you're also increasing the demand, you need to reach people
on a different level. Have that one on one conversation with them. You know, I told you,
I work in a bank, I have people that sit with me all the time. And they'll talk about, you know,
oh, foods that they like to eat. And then when they find out I'm vegan, and they're like, wait,
what do you eat? I'm a foodie. So I take loads of pictures of everything that I make. And I'm like,
oh, let me show you my Instagram. And I whip out my phone and I start showing them dishes I make.
And they're like, that's vegan. Yes, that's vegan. And they're just mind blown. You know,
they're like, holy smokes. There's no way I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, we have like little potlucks
at work. I'll bring stuff for food. And they love what I've made. And so I just, I think we have to
reach people, you've got to look for that common ground. That's going to be the biggest thing.
Yeah, I totally agree with, with reaching common ground. I mean, that's the, that's the ticket for
effective activism, I think is like understanding what the person believes, and then responding to
them, which is why listening is such an important aspect of activism or talking with people about
this. It's not just having all these loaded up statistics and facts and figures, but it's
listening to what they're saying and then responding empathetically and trying to think about
what they must be thinking as you are telling them these things and kind of going from there.
Ryan to go off of that question about how we can
gain more conservatives to this, to this stance. Education, going off of what Michelle was saying,
yeah, just people, a lot of people don't know. My mom tells me all the time, because I do sit her
down and talk with her about it. And I know that she's a, you know, compassionate and nonviolent
person who would not want to contribute to it. But it's a matter of education, habit,
misconceptions, stuff like that. So just talking with people. And then, again, keeping that calm,
rational tone, I think Earthling Ed says that any, any discussion that you have with somebody that
you don't lose your cool, that you don't resort to name calling or ad hominem attacks, that's a win.
Because it shows that a vegan who's typically portrayed as overly emotional, irrational,
kept their composure and was able to talk about an emotionally charged topic. So education,
keeping a calm and rational disposition, appealing to their beliefs of individual liberty. I mean,
again, so much of this is linked with, with what we, what we aim to do with animals, which is to
just allow them to exist. You don't have to love animals to allow them to exist. You don't have to
love someone to refrain from stabbing them in the throat, right? You just if even if you don't like
them, you still leave them alone. It's the base standard that we have for other humans, we can
afford that to animals too, because there is a way to exist without exploiting them. Vegans are proof
of this. So just kind of appealing to these things that they believe. If they are, if they are
Christian or Catholic, I mean, I, there are so many Bible passages that that we can look at, they will
present their own Bible passages that that claim that meat eating is fine. But for every one that
there is that could be construed like that, there's one that's pretty certain that says, leave
animals alone, I've given you the seeds of the earth for food, and, and, you know, ideas like
that. So the Bible passage exchange could get a little a little heated, but just talking with them
about Jesus's teachings and and like what God would want, what he want. I mean, I find that it's
breeding animals into existence, in a way is is kind of like playing God, you know, you're, you're
bringing them into existence, you confining them, and you're killing them at a premature, at a
at a premature, at a fraction of their natural lifespan. So, you know, if you're appealing to
their beliefs in in God and the the order that he would want for his creatures and for his world,
I think that many people would disagree with that. And if God does want that, what does the devil
want, right? Like, what would the most evil force want, if not animals to be sentient beings to be
suffering all day until they're killed at a fraction of their lifespan? I mean, it's it's pure evil.
And I think most people can recognize that after they strip back the conditioning and the layers.
And one last point, the definitely like the masculinity is an issue, because we have, or
certain people have this perception that it comes from overly emotional people who can't handle
the idea that an animal suffered. And they'll bring up like, you know, what does a lion do? And
like, do you think that a lion cares and stuff like that? Like, no, you have to, you know,
embrace this, like, you know, where the top of the food chain and things like that,
where I think that's playing into, like, what people feel about masculinity and about, you know,
taking charge of your life and stuff. And with that, I would just point to another example,
where we think that the person who is most masculine and the manliest is the one who's
protecting innocent and vulnerable populations. If there's a guy who gets out of his truck to help
a duck, you know, walk across the street, he's a hero. If there's a guy who rescues a puppy from
a burning building, he's a hero. And that's shown as a sign of masculinity. If a guy is helping an
older lady, a strong man is helping an older lady carry her bags and go across the street, that's a
hero, that's masculine, that's using his strength for good, and all these things. And then we turn
around and say that it's masculine to breed, enslave, mutilate and confine vulnerable, innocent
beings. I mean, it goes completely against what we were just saying is masculine. This is the
easiest thing you can do. Of course, you can put a chain around somebody and put them in a little
cage. That's like the opposite of strength. It's very easy, and it's exploiting the most vulnerable
population. So, you know, kind of reminding them that masculinity is using your strength for good,
using your manliness and your abilities for good. Just because we can do something doesn't mean that
it's morally right. Might makes right is an argument that we encounter a lot that because we
encounter a lot that because we can because we are the apex, we are justified in doing this. No,
we can do it the same way I can harm somebody unnecessarily. I have the ability to do that.
I can ball up my fist and punch a toddler. I'm not going to do that. It's the wrong thing to do the
same way it is wrong to harm animals unnecessarily. Those are very good points. And yeah, first of
all, I truly believe in the capacity of people to become vegan, whatever the background is.
And I've had guests on this podcast who have been workers of the animal industry, not just eating
meat, but working for the animal industry for slaughterhouses and such. So if those people
can make the transition and become vegan and become vegan advocates, then why? Why are other
people? Why is it so difficult for other people? You know, that's always a question that baffles me
and I have to put myself in the shoes of others. And yeah, Andres, it's all about speaking the
language of the person you're interacting with. And that's why I think this episode is important,
because if you don't know conservatives, if you don't know what you're thinking,
who they are, where they come from, how can you speak their language and then influence them
to become vegan or at least get them to care a little bit about animal welfare? I want to quickly
talk about religion. I had a question for you, Michelle. If the leaders of your church, and I
assume you go to church, said that animal welfare was important, talked about veganism,
would you have felt influenced or would you have considered veganism earlier? Yeah.
Absolutely. Absolutely. They do host things throughout the year. Like, the church we go to
is also a school. It's a private school and my son attends that school. So throughout the year,
they do fundraisers, they host like bake sales and dinners and what have you. And so I always
bring something and everybody absolutely loves what I bring. I usually bring like a
vegan chocolate cake and everybody just goes crazy for it. They're like, oh my gosh, I need this
recipe. And when I tell them it's vegan, they're just like, what? No, absolutely not. I'm like,
yeah, a hundred percent vegan. They're like, this is the moistest, most chocolatey yummy cake I've
ever had. And yeah. So, but I think, yeah, absolutely. If that was something taught as a child,
I feel like yes, it would have happened sooner. In fact, this is kind of a conversation me and
my sister sort of touch on, but not really. Like I said, I like to call her a vegetarian
and she has a young son. He's 11. And I think for her ethically, she struggles
feeding him meat, but she's concerned that he's not going to get enough protein or that he's not
going to get enough nutrients. But I think that's, that's not, that is no longer a good valid
excuse. And I don't really want to say that to her because I don't want to have that like aggressive
in your face kind of conversation. But I feel like for me as a vegetarian, I don't want to be
a vegan. I feel like for me as a vegan today, it's much easier to be a vegan today than it would
have been for someone say 10 years ago, because there's so many resources online. You can research
till you're blue in the face, how to eat healthy and how to maintain all the nutrients that you
need to thrive. There's, you know, recipes that you can research. So there's just, in my opinion,
H and H, there's no excuse for it. None, none. But I get it, you know, coming from a mom's perspective,
it's, it's hard for her to go, well, I don't want to harm my child. But you are actually harming your
child, because you're teaching him a lifestyle that's not a healthy and good and sustainable
lifestyle. You know, like when I watched What the Health and they talked about all the things that
milk products and meat products did to your body. Well, no wonder, you know, and if you're going to
start someone at a young age, eating those types of foods, what's that going to do for them in their
adult life? That would be like if you took your child and decided you're going to raise them on
gummy bears and Twinkies. As an adolescent, then when they become a young adult or an adult, they're
going to continue with that lifestyle. And they're going to become morbidly obese with all kinds of
health problems. Why don't we look at like, you know, meat and dairy and things of that nature
the same way? Yeah, it's, it's a good point. And for a long time, I was not convinced by the health
argument. Because I think partly, you know, I come from a Mediterranean family. And so we have a
Mediterranean diet. And it's hard to make the point that veganism is healthier than what they're
eating. But yeah, there are many vegans who are convinced by the health arguments, and then down
the line, they, they are exposed to the ethical arguments, and then they stay vegan for ethical
reasons, not so much for the health part of it. Let's end this conversation, maybe with this final
question. Did you have something to add? Nothing really resounding. I just wanted to say thank you
so much for putting this together. I think this is a great first step. I feel like these conversations
need to be had more. I know, you know, like, when we go to vegan restaurants, when we first started
going, you know, my husband being a black man, he was just astounded every time he saw like, another
black man or another black woman. And he was just like, Ah, okay, you know, because when we lived in
Alabama, we lived in this really teeny tiny town, right. And the population was probably 99.9%
white. And it was literally him and our landlady who was black. So we had this like ongoing joke
every time I would go to Walmart. If I saw like another black person, I'd be like, Hi, Loni,
there's another black guy in here. You want me to invite him to the monthly meeting? And so it just
it became this like joke between us. So now when we go to these restaurants, and he sees other
people, he's just like, Oh, and I think that as we, you know, expand our numbers, when we start to see
other conservatives, too, I feel like that that's going to help to bring in more conservatives. And
then we can all start to have that conversation. There goes my light again, we can all start to
have that conversation. Because now we've all found that common ground between, you know, the
liberals and the conservatives, and how we're all vegan, and we're doing great things together.
Amazing. Andres. Absolutely. Yeah, I've read somewhere that because there's a lot of
black owned vegan businesses here in South Florida. So I see a great representation of
of vegan people who are black here in South Florida, I read somewhere that it's the fastest
growing group of vegans. And some theories involve having them like, black people who
have come from Africa understand like the oppression that that they faced in the past and
like are now applying it to the oppression that animals feel. So that's a theory that's going
around for why they're the fastest growing. I can't speak to that. But yeah, I think it's an
argument that Gary, you know, who we talked about in the beginning of the podcast, you know, he
always talks about how it's easier to convince someone who has been oppressed or who came from
a background of oppression to become vegan than someone who hasn't. Yeah, yeah, totally.
So that's that was cool. I wanted to make one other link to maybe my awakening in becoming
conservative and my awakening or maybe another person's awakening into becoming vegan is that
documentary What the Health really exposes a lot of lies that we're told by these industries
that want to make profits from people, pharmaceutical industries, food, food companies,
and all that. And it kind of like exposes that there's like all these all this manipulation
going on to the public. And I kind of felt like that was what was going on in the last like five
years or so when I started like looking into certain topics more. It's all about like media
perception, liberal, good, conservative, bad, and and just like how we're manipulated to believe
certain things we're manipulated to believe that animals don't matter. We're manipulated to believe
that conservatives are bad, evil people. So I think that What the Health documentary might be
pretty good for conservatives to say like, Hey, I don't want to participate in this industry where
so many people are lying to me because, you know, maybe the modern conservative might be,
especially in like, like my age group, you know, might might be a little more cynical and skeptical
of big programs like that. So they might be saying, well, if I'm cynical of government and
big programs like that, maybe I can also be cynical about these lies that were being fed about the
food industries and clothing industries and all that. And one last point, and thank you for the
and thank you for the opportunity to share final final closing thoughts, because Michelle, you were
saying a bunch of cool things there. And you were saying how some people believe that veganism is
extreme. And there's another another vegan philosopher, activist personality online, Gary
Francione, maybe Ryan, you're you're familiar with him now. I'll send you a link. He's he's good. He's
a professor at the University of Rutgers, I believe in New Jersey. He and I disagree on certain things.
I think he's way more liberal with a lot of his politics. But he's recently gotten into some
trouble because of some views that he has on about trans people and and their beliefs. So I'll allow
you to investigate that on your own. But he's kind of an interesting character with his views. But
final thing that what he says, veganism is not extreme. What's extreme is teaching your children
to love animals, and then teaching that you can harm the ones you love. Right? That's a very
dangerous message to be promoting, right? And that that animals matter, but they don't when it comes
to food, clothing, and entertainment and medicine. So it that's, that's a point that he makes about
the extremism of non veganism. And I wanted to share that. Yeah, I don't like that word. I prefer
the word radical, because, you know, we're going to the root of a problem. And, you know, we're
changing ourselves. So in a way, it's radical. But even then, you know, there are people who
don't make truly difference between, you know, radical and extreme, but I make it, you know,
I think extreme is not the adequate word for veganism for vegan transition. But radical would be a
better word, because it is radical. I mean, it is life changing. I agree. I agree that it's radical
in our current society, in the way that society is structured right now. I believe that in its
most fundamental form, in essence, it's inaction, right? It's veganism is the absence of exploiting
animals. Whereas right now, the standard is to exploit animals. This is this is the opposite.
It's saying I'm leaving other people alone, I'm actually abstaining from acting. So in a way,
I would say that it's not radical at all. It's it's the the common baseline decency that we have for
other people. So but yes, in our current society, for sure, it is radical. And I would also oppose
the idea that it's radical to to refrain from causing harm to others, right? Most people are
in agreement with that. We're just the ones who are saying, well, now it's time to act like it.
And let me stop paying for animal products, animal services. Yeah, I like how you flip it on its head
and say, you know, I have more of a passive vegan approach than an active vegan approach.
So did you want to comment on that, Michelle? Or are we good?
Well, I was I actually had a thought while he was talking. And it kind of went to like,
when you were talking about, like, black people coming more to be in vegan. Yeah.
And just thinking back through history, right? We as humans have done, like, horrific things.
But we continue to evolve. You know, there was like Hitler and the Jews and
the blacks being enslaved and people being enslaved still to this day, you know, but we
continue to evolve. We just have to learn to stop supporting those companies. You know, we don't
buy certain brands because we know that they're using child slave labor. And so I think it's just
people need to wake up, do their research, look at these huge companies and what are they supporting?
You know, don't just go out and buy that product because that's the product that you want.
Is it ethical? Is it a right thing to do? Maybe, you know, in another 50 years, more people are
going to come to this movement and be like, gosh, I can't believe we were so horrible that we did
that 50 years ago, you know, killing and torturing animals. And maybe in 50 years from now, it's
going to be a different, it's going to be different because as we all come together, I feel like
we can speak to it, you know, and as conservatives, we can, we speak the language, right, of the
conservatives. So we can speak to our conservative friends and reach them. And, you know, we can
know liberals can speak to their liberal friends and bring them in as well. I think that's the
foundation. You got to have a good foundation. Yeah. I subscribe to what you said, Michelle,
and I'm so proud that we are a part of that change, that first, you know, wave of changing
the world to make it a better place for animals and against animal exploitation. Yeah. So again,
thank you very much, both of you for having answered my invitation and my questions.
It is truly appreciated. Thanks so much. Thank you for having us. Thank you everyone for listening.
What a great and inspiring conversation this was. I invite all of you to share this episode with the
conservatives, you know, family, friends, maybe this will make a little difference in increasing
that 2%. As always, let me know if you liked this conversation, leave me a good review or reach out
to me on Instagram at vegan report podcast. Thank you again for listening. Take care and see you
next Tuesday for a new episode.