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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.

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If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure

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where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with

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passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special

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contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Today, we are going

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to talk about vegan conservatives. I always perceived veganism as being a movement under

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criticism by the right and the left. Some conservatives talk of vegans as being a joke,

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being woke, they say veganism is a cult, and of course there's this focus on the importance of

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masculinity and this is often associated with eating meat or hunting. However, criticism also

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comes from liberals who dismiss vegans by labeling them as being anti-indigenous people,

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they're also called elitist, capitalist, inaccessible, caring more about animals than

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people of color, I've heard it all. And liberal and conservative governments from around the world

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have always been great allies of the animal industry. But what I'm interested in is the

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political discourse from within the vegan movement. I have to say all the vegans I know are on the

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left, and that perception seems to be backed up by various studies. One report from Gallup dating

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back to 2018 read as follow. Self-described liberal Americans are among the most likely

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to be vegetarian or vegan. Around one in 10 liberals, about 11% say they are vegetarian,

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and 5% say they are vegans. And it makes sense, because for many vegans veganism is an extension

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of their liberalism, if not at least a position consistent with their political values. Then

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there's a good portion of apolitical or independent vegans, but my real question is, where are the

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conservative vegans? In 8 years of being vegan, I never met a single conservative vegan, and it's

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not just my bias, because that same Gallup report found that only 2% of conservatives say they are

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either vegetarian or vegan. 2% of conservatives compared to 11% of liberals. And my first reaction

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was to think I need to find vegan conservatives and talk with them, understand where they're coming

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from, and maybe get some insights on how to better advocate for veganism among conservatives. Because

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I consider that 2% as a failure to advocate veganism to conservatives, and someone needs to do

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something. So here I am taking some first steps. I published an ad on the subreddit vegan, and two

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brave vegan conservatives answered my invitation. Both of you, Andress, Michelle, welcome to the

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podcast. Thank you. Thanks, Ray. So can we start by some introductions? Michelle, would you like to

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start? Certainly. My name is Michelle. I'm almost 49. In October, I'll be 49. And I live in Florida.

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So deep in the South. I moved here eight years ago, actually, from Alabama. And I have been vegan

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about four years now. Well, my name is Andress. What a coincidence, we're both from Florida.

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I am a first generation Cuban American though. So my parents came from Cuba in the 60s, and then made

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a life for themselves in the States. And I was born and raised in South Florida. I moved away for a

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little while, but I'm back here. I am a cyclist, a musician, and also vegan. I've been vegan for

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five years and meat free for 10 in total now. And yeah, I'm eager to get this talk going.

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So happy birthday in advance, Michelle. Thank you. I'm wondering, why did you choose to appear as

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guests on this podcast? Because it can be a bit intimidating to talk publicly about your position.

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So I'm curious, what made you want to become guests on the vegan import?

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Would you like me to go first? Sure. Okay, so I saw your bet. And I was like, Oh, because you know,

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there's just this huge political divide. And I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna take a chance. I'm

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gonna put it out there. Because maybe we can find something that will give us that common ground that

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will bring us all together. There's actually more conservative vegans than you can even begin to

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imagine. I'm part of a conservative vegan Facebook group. We're a small group. There's only 1500.

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But that's 1500 people strong, you know, and I feel like that's just in Florida, maybe there's more.

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And so I love that you opened this up. And I think it's a great thing.

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Yeah, similar. Anytime there's some discussion about veganism and right wing politics, or just

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politics in general, I do like to chime in. I like to remind people that vegans don't all fit into

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one box politically. Gary Yerofsky, if you're familiar, he has a very famous speech that's

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a lot of people's first introduction to veganism. All right, good afternoon, everybody. My name is

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Gary Yerofsky. Please take a moment and jot down my email address and my website in case you want

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to contact me later on. Today, we're going to talk about the world's forgotten victims, animals,

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and the world's oldest and strongest addiction, meat. And he at the start of his speech, he's saying,

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you don't have to change anything. You don't have to give up your friend group, your religious

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beliefs, your political beliefs, just leave animals alone. I am not trying to take you away

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from your religion. No religion mandates meat eating. The golden rule states do unto others

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as you would have done unto yourself. Animals qualify as others, and thou shalt not kill.

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The four most important yet most ignored words in all religious teachings. There's not an asterisk

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next to that commandment saying, unless you walk on all fours, have fur, feathers, horns, beaks,

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or gills. You can keep your friends, your politics, and your patriotism, still watch your favorite TV

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shows and listen to your favorite music, even if it's Ted Nugent. So I like to remind people that

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you don't have to abandon these beliefs or change who you are, really. It's all about just kind of

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aligning your actions with your beliefs. And a lot of us believe that animal abuse is bad. So

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regardless of what you believe politically, economically, religiously, you can live in a way

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that leaves animals alone. So I definitely want to highlight that. And so I'm grateful for the

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opportunity.

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Yeah, who doesn't know Gary? I mean, I think he's the one without hair.

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Yeah, yeah, definitely. And he's got a lot of clips. And just a very famous, about an hour long

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speech. He did a tour in a bunch of universities in the early 2010s, which lined up with the time

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that my sister was a college student. And she became vegetarian through him. And I wish

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eventually vegan, but she's still vegetarian now. And I only found out that it was through Gary,

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like this past year, she was like, yeah, I was this bald guy. He was, you know, very passionate.

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And I was like, that's, that's our guy. We love that guy, Gary Yerovsky. Michelle, check him out

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if you have it.

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I was just gonna say I've never heard of him. That I'm, let me write that down. What was his

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last name?

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So strange last name. Y O U R O F S K Y.

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Nice. Okay, I will absolutely check him out. Yeah. And listeners who haven't, go check him out. I

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mean, he's great. He's very charismatic. So let me ask you, what has been your conservative journey

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so far? Basically, I want to know, why do you identify as a conservative or right leading?

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Does it have bearing in your personal life? Or is it some simply a political choice? So

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here's a bulk of questions for you. Andres, would you like to start?

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Sure. Yeah, I, I just want to start by saying that I feel like I'm still learning. I'm always

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willing to hear new positions. I love having heady debates and just talking about ideas and

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exchanging ideas. So I feel that I'm, I'm constantly learning. And my feet are maybe not firmly

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planted in conservative ground. I, there are certainly a lot of positions I have that are

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right leaning economically. And they're just like a few tenants that I believe individual liberty,

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limited government, free market economics, and then probably the one that's most popular.

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And in this camp would be pro-life and it's secular pro-life, not, not involving any religion. It's,

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it's simply acknowledging that there are defenseless lives that are being harmed and so wanting to

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protect that. So in a way, I see so many similarities between conservatism or certain

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values and conservatism and, and veganism, but we can, we can get on that and we can, we can

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get on that in a little while. Just more about the journey. My, my parents, as I mentioned,

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are Cuban. They came when there was a communist revolution in their country. So there's a lot of

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trauma with that. And growing up, I didn't really understand it. In fact, I somewhat, somewhat

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selfishly dismissed their experiences and their views as just saying, well, they're just scared

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of anything remotely liberal or left leaning. But growing up, I'm, I'm 32 now. And in the last five

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years, I would say that there's been somewhat of a, an embracing of a lot of the things that

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they were telling me about individual responsibility, individual rights, you know, being against

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things like high taxation and stuff like that, that just started to make sense to me in the US.

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We had a, an election in 2020. So I was thinking a lot about politics then in a way that was deeper

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than just what my friend group or the people around me were talking about. As I mentioned earlier,

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I'm a musician, I'm a cyclist. I have hobbies and interests that are typically seen as things that

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more left leaning people are involved with artsy people, progressive people, and I think that

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so I have a lot of that in my life. But when I sit down and think about these topics, and what I

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think is best for society, and what I think is best for the world, a lot of it lines up with

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libertarian and conservative thinking. So that's, that's kind of where I'm at now. But again, in

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taking a position of very, you know, open to, to debate and open to new ideas, but certainly having

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some, some affiliation there with, with conservative thinking and rightly, rightly thinking.

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Yeah, and I have to say, as someone who comes from an immigrant background, you know, I was born in

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North Africa, it is common among immigrants to be conservative. I mean, it's a, it's a common

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political stance. So what about you, Michelle?

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So you know, I thought long and hard about this one, when I got your questions, and

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my mother has passed now, she actually passed away when she was 48. So it's, it's been almost,

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well, yeah, it's been 25 years now. But if I had to look back on it, I think she was what

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is known as like, an old school, you know, she was 100% for women's rights, where my father was

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always very, very conservative. And they divorced when I was young. So I got this nice mixture.

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And I think for me, my conservative values are more deeply ingrained in my Christian values. You

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know, I just going with the whole pro life thing, well, why do we stop there at a woman's body? And

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that's what kind of like embeds me in the vegan. Why does it stop at a woman's body? Why not an

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animal's body as well? They they have the right to life as well, just as much as we do. Why are we

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any better than that animal? So, you know, it, it was an interesting upbringing, I will say that

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much. My mother has a brother who is gay. So I grew up with him. And I guess me coming in and being

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more ingrained as a conservative as I got older, it was more about less government. And, you know,

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people are fighting for the right to their own body. Well, that happens when you have less

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government. If the government has their finger less on your body, then that's what happens when

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you're a conservative. And that's what we fight for all the time. I don't want big brother telling

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me what I can and can't do. I don't want him taxing me into the grave. Get out of my life,

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get out of my pocketbook. And just let me live my life. I'm a hardcore patriot. You know, I fight

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for my country. And, you know, I've never joined the military. But I the little things that I do

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in my life on a daily basis, that's just that's my my take on life.

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So let's talk about if you don't mind that that pro life position and the link with veganism,

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because I've seen a lot of conservatives make a link between their pro life, their pro life,

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between their pro life values, and their veganism. And I have to say, I'm not very familiar with the

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the abortion debate since I'm Canadian. This is not something present in the political landscape,

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the Canadian political landscape. It is more of an American debate. So who wants to take the mic?

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I'll just comment here. And I suppose it is quite interesting that Michelle takes it a little bit

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more from a religious perspective, I have thoughts on religion, and I'm, you know, I'm not dismissive

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of religion in the slightest that I was raised Catholic, but I don't think that that's where a

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lot of my decision making is influenced by. Although I do have, you know, my thoughts and

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my beliefs, I think that for the for the movement to be more widely accepted, I think it's, it's

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better to take it from a secular approach. But maybe that's more of like an activism tactic. But

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just from my own perspective, I do see so many similarities between, between veganism and pro

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life ism, I have a few of them written down here, and some that I've got from the

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these certain like groups online that are like considered consistent life ethics. So they have

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like viewpoints that are consistent across the board on various topics, including what we eat

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and and issues like abortion. So similarities between veganism and pro life ism both are

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centered around the idea of respecting life, especially that of the innocent, the innocent

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vulnerable, defenseless. The second point concern for the right to life is present in both.

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Number three concern for the rights to not be harmed and to bodily autonomy. So, yeah,

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we hear a lot about bodily autonomy in the pro choice movement, where they're saying we

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shouldn't regulate what happens to a woman, but they're forgetting about the victim. And a lot

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of that happens with veganism as well. They say I, you know, it's my personal choice to eat

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whatever I want, disregarding or forgetting that there's a victim involved with their choices.

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So, you know, we can get into into more parallels. But I think that that is already showing how,

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even with a lot of the language that non vegans use to like dehumanize animals, a lot of pro

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choice people will use similar tactics to dehumanize. It's just a clump of cells. It's,

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you know, it's not a human yet, things like that. So it actually, interestingly, I became vegan

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first. And veganism led me to being pro life. And I've talked about this a little bit online and

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in certain, you know, subreddits and, you know, Instagram posts and things like that. And I've

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seen other people agree and say that, you know, it really makes sense if you think about what's

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you're fighting for with veganism, what you're advocating for, a lot of it lines up with

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protecting vulnerable and defenseless lives in the womb as well.

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Michel, did you want to add something?

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So for me, like I said, I grew up in a house with my mom who was an old school Democrat. So

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the idea of abortion when I was younger, it was just something that, you know, women were allowed

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to do. My husband and I tried for many years to get pregnant. He is a black man. And he actually

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brought me deeper into my conservative roots, because he's very conservative, like, as far

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conservative as you can get, you know, he just, we lead a lot of people. And he's a very, very

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modest lifestyle. And he feels that that's just the way things should be. But when we finally were

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able to get pregnant with our son, we were given some devastating news that he would be born with

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not just Down syndrome, but spina bifida. So as a woman, I felt like a failure, I tried and tried

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for years to give this man a child. And here we were faced with this devastating news. And my

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doctor said, Well, we can we can do an abortion. And he was like, Absolutely not. No, he said,

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if this is what God is entrusting to us to raise this child and bring him into the world, then who

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are we to question his plan? And I was just blown away by, you know, his sentiment. And we are

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fortunate enough, my husband took me to church, and we prayed and prayed and prayed, not for our

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own selfish benefit, but for the benefit of our child that God would bless us and let this child

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be born healthy and some miraculous. I don't know. He's he's 17 now and healthy is a horse pardon

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the pun, but he's he's extremely healthy and a very smart man. And just, I mean, when people meet

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this kid, I have people come up to me all the time, I work in a bank, and they're like, Oh,

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I know your son. He's just such a shining light. And you know what, had I made that choice back

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then, and not had my husband's support, he wouldn't be here today. So I feel like when when women are

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so quick to snuff out that light, you could be giving up something that's just gonna shine so

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brightly in this universe. That's that's a touching story. And just shows the power of Yeah, making

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making reasoned and and informed choices and not not jumping to conclusions. A lot of times,

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I feel that people are pressured, especially in the US to to go to that option rather than

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considering other options. You know, it just linking it back to veganism, there, there are

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other options to for how to give ourselves nutrients and how to feed ourselves. And there

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are other options to, to, you know, giving, not not to giving birth, there are other options to

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how you raise the child and like caregiving services and all that. To to end the life is,

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I would say is not an option, right. So in both with regarding what we eat or what we wear,

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and lives that we bring into this into this world. So my, I'm sorry, I just wanted to say,

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like my whole pregnancy, my husband spent the whole time researching how to care for a child

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with Down syndrome and with spina bifida. So it was just, I'm very, I'm very blessed, like to have

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him in my life. And he's such a good, strong support. And, you know, just the fact that he

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was willing to do all that to make sure that our child made it here in this world. And if we were

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going to be faced with such things, just it's amazing to me. The fact that you were ready to

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welcome that child, even with his disabilities. I mean, that's something truly, I don't know how

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many families would have felt courageous enough to go ahead and do it. But let's talk about the

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vegan side then the vegan label. I have basically the same question for you than the conservative

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one, but in terms of veganism. So what has been your vegan journey so far? Why did you become

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vegan? What was the reaction of family and friends? How did you handle that transition?

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Basically, how did it happen? And why? You had to go first, Michelle. Sure. So mine is actually a

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very interesting tale. For many years, I struggled with my health. After trying to get pregnant with

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my son, we were actually pregnant 14 times trying to have him. So we had 14 miscarriages, and then

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along came my son. So I struggled with my weight. And being pregnant back to back like that, it

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just it wreaked so much havoc on my body. And my sister, my older sister, she has been just

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forever in my face about my health. She's like, you have to eat healthy, you have to eat. She's,

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she's, I like to call her a vegetarian. Because while she's primarily vegan, she does

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occasionally eat cheese and things like that. Although I think I have swayed her away from it

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finally. So you know, she was forever in my face about my health. She was like, you need to

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get this under control, your weight's out of control. And now you're diabetic. And it was just,

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okay, so what do I do? She said, I need you to go watch this documentary on Netflix is called fat,

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sick and nearly dead. I fair enough, I'm going to watch it. And I put it off and put it off and

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put it off because that's just my big sister yammering in my ear. And who wants to hear that?

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But I finally just done. No, it was like right before the pandemic. Shortly before I was like,

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I went to the doctor, doctor said, your a one C is 11.4. And I don't know if you know anything

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about an a one C, but that's dangerously high. Like you're, you're just, you're on the path for

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death. And it kind of shook me because I was almost at the age that my mother was when she died,

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she died from cancer. And I didn't want to leave my children. I have two sons. The oldest one still

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lives in Alabama and I have two grandsons from him and I didn't want to leave them. And so I was

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like, you know what, I'm going to go home. I'm going to watch this documentary. And you know how

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Netflix is like, Oh, watch this one too. So then I watched what the hell again, mind blown. And then

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ultimately it took me to food, Inc. And that was just like, I know the term that liberals love to

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use is that they're woke, but on the right, we like to say that we're awake. And that was my awakening.

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I was like, Oh, Oh my gosh. I had no idea. Here I am this red blooded American who, you know,

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supports hunting and you know, all these other things and steak and burgers and cause that's

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American. Right. And I was just like, but what's happening behind these closed doors, that's not

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American. I actually wrote it down because it's a quote that I love. Paul McCartney said it best.

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If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian. Well, I think they would actually

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be vegan, Paul. It just, and then I've watched Dominion, which was just horrifying. It was two

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hours of, you know, people love horror movies. Well, that's, that's a horror movie in itself.

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I was just wrecked crying. I could not believe it. It was just, so for me, I cannot even begin to fathom

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using animal products. I have so many animals in my house. It's ridiculous. People make jokes

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and say that I'm like my own personal zoo. And I always, always considered myself an animal lover.

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Yeah. But when I was a meat eater, I wasn't an animal lover. I was a lover of pets, not of animals.

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Now I can officially say that I love all animals because I'm very conscientious of what I wear

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and what I'm eating and what I'm using for products. Because my first instinct is to go and look,

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Oh, does this have some kind of an animal byproduct in it? Because maybe it does. And they've just

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labeled it some weird chemical name and I don't want any part of that. And so that's, that's what

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basically took me to being a vegan. And after watching those movies, I made my husband and my

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son, I'm like, you have to come watch this. And they came in the room and we all sat and watched

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it. And everybody was just like, Oh my gosh, I said, we're doing this. We are doing this. And my

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husband being the ultra supportive person he is, he was like, okay. And so I went into the kitchen,

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I boxed everything up. I called my son's best friend's mother and I was like, Hey, do you want

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a box of like meat and cheese and milk and butter and all this other stuff? She was like, okay.

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And she came to get it and she's like, what's going on? And I'm like, we're going vegan. And

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the look on her face was just like, what? Like deer in headlights, literally. She's like, what do

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you mean you're going vegan? I'm like, yeah, we're going vegan. She's like, what exactly does that

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mean? I said, Oh, no meat, no cheese, no butter, just to put it in basics, like no animal products.

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She's like, well, what are you going to eat? And I love that question. I get that all the time.

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People say to me, well, what do you eat? Do I look like I'm starving? Do I? No, not even in the

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slightest. I eat very good. I eat very healthy. We do occasionally like to eat the

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foam meats because I think my husband still struggles with giving up the idea of like eating

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a meat for me. I could eat, you know, rice and beans and vegetables every day. I'm 100% a

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vegetable person. He's not, I think it's just his, sorry, guys, I think it's his maleness

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that he has that like struggle with letting go of the idea of eating a burger or eating chicken,

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which just horrifies me the idea of it now. But so that's, that's basically what brought us to it.

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And I love the journey that we're on. They just continue to follow and, you know, I'll bring them

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new little tidbits. I'm like, Hey, did you know this? Come watch this. And they love it. They eat

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it right up. That's an incredible story. That's something. I mean, that never happens. I wish

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more people would react that way and make those changes, you know, in a heartbeat after watching

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those documentaries. And but I can, I can relate to your story because in my case, I became vegan

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overnight, basically, once I was convinced, I was convinced and there was no turning back.

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So I understand that that feeling. So interest, what was your story?

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Yeah, well, Michelle, I just wanted to comment. I like that you had a balance of

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like health information first, which is

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quite objective, I would say, you know, the information that the

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research and the data that we have now, but then also getting like the emotional aspect

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as well with the animals. And that is also undeniable with the compassion that all humans

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are equipped with. It's undeniable that no one would want to participate in something like that

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and that it's unjustifiable to. So I just wanted to comment on that. It's very nice. For me,

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thankfully, it was very easy, always, you know, I was very, very, very, very, very, very, very

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good at it. I always had supportive parents always had supportive partners and friends. So really no,

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no issues with that at all at age 22, a little later than I should, well, definitely later than

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I should have. I became vegetarian, my sister was vegetarian is still is my girlfriend at the time

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was vegetarian. So it was like, you know, influenced all around me. But it didn't happen until I was

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like, you know, I thought that there was a lot more preparation involved or a lot more

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like research that you had to do. But really, it's it's like a moral decision. And then once that

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is switched, like once that switches is flipped, you can look into like, okay, how should I feed

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myself and then you're good to go. So that switch got flipped at 22. And then the vegan switch got

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flipped at 27. And there were like weak attempts while still being vegetarian to go fully vegan,

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because I knew that it was better. And I knew that I cared about animals and didn't want to be the

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reason that they suffered. So it but but it didn't really click in with my behaviors until 27. And

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that was well, I want to say overnight, but I guess it was five years in the making that I became

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vegan. But once once that switch was flipped, I mean, it was it was a one day to the next that I

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just dropped all animal products. And yeah, it was always supportive from from everyone, I didn't

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really receive any any pushback. But in the last maybe two years, I've gotten a lot more into vegan

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advocacy, activism, and into like talking about it more, I am passionate about telling people about

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how wonderful this has been in my life. And in not just how I feel physically more energy and

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clear skin and a bunch of other things, but also just like emotionally and the person that I am,

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I've always been someone who is nonviolent, somebody who who believes in peace. So in, in those ways, I

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feel like it just lined up perfectly with with veganism. And I also like to think of it as a

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justice movement. I like to remind people that you don't have to care about animals, this isn't

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necessarily although it does help. And Michelle, I'm so glad that you are an animal lover. But but I

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also like to remind people that it's not something that requires so much compassion. Because when we

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think about other injustices in the world, what women's rights, gay rights, you know, Africans who

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are enslaved, we don't think about them in a way that say, well, we should be compassionate towards

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them and afford them a little leniency here. We say that as a baseline, this is the least we can do

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is leave them alone, right? Allow them to exist, allow this person to exist, and and leave the, you

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know, leave people alone to not be under your rule under your dominion under whatever, whatever

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oppression you're putting on gays, women's slaves, whatever it is. And so it's just extending that

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now to animals. And it's it's to recognize that there is no justification, right? It's an injustice,

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it's it's discriminating based on species. And and there is no justification. And that's like,

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that's where the the ethical and moral baseline comes in. And I feel like it's less about

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feelings and emotions. And it's more logical. And it's more just a rational decision. And especially

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with the conservative crowd, I like to not that I've spoken with many conservatives about this,

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but every now and then I do somebody who shares certain things that I believe in, I say, you know,

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there are a lot of parallels, I know that in the media, veganism gets painted as a left wing thing,

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or it gets painted as like an overly emotional thing. Like, you know, it's people who care about

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animals, and they're so empathetic and so compassionate that they can't imagine this.

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And yeah, that might be the issue or the reason for some people. And I'm glad that people are

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loaded with empathy and compassion. But there are a lot of people also who do it from a purely

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logical and rational standpoint, there's no justification for this, you wouldn't like this

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treatment if it was unto you or unto any one of your family members. And to afford other people,

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their liberty is a huge part of my conservative views, my libertarian views. In fact, libertarian

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also has other words that some people use for it, I've heard it be referred to or described as

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voluntary ism, which is the idea that all actions must be voluntary, you cannot coerce

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another person to give you money via taxation or property. And you cannot like, yeah, there's no

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no force or coercion. I've also heard it be referred to as consensual ism. So you must consent to all

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actions. And I see your your heads nodding, we see how this is exactly in alignment with with veganism

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we don't the animal doesn't consent to have her milk taken from her that's for her children,

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you know, the animal does not consent to having their head chopped off so that you can enjoy their

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flesh. That's their own flesh, they have the right to their own body. And a lot of that is linked to

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libertarianism. One last thing about libertarianism, a core tenant of this philosophy or belief system

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is what's known as the non aggression principle and AP non aggression principle. And it's in the

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name there. It's a principle that libertarians live by that says, I don't hurt you, you don't hurt me,

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I don't take things from you or force you to give me things. And, and similarly, I expect the same

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from you. And then apply that to government apply that to social structures. And I think you've got

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a well oiled machine and a good running society. And I also think that it's like fundamentally,

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a lot of people believe this too, right, like this, the individual unit is, is the most fundamental

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and the most important one. Without individuals, we don't have communities. So I like to kind of

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draw those parallels as well. So that's my my vegan journey so far. Those are interesting points. And

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it even applies to liberals, I think. One liberal I'm thinking about is a natural vegan. She's a

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YouTuber. I don't know if you heard of her. But she talks openly about how she's not an animal lover.

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She has been vegan for years and years. But what convinced her was, you know, ethical arguments,

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philosophical arguments. That's what I get from her position. But in preparation for this interview,

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I looked up reasons why there are less conservatives who are vegan than liberals.

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And one of the reasons given was how there was no social support for the veganism of some

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conservatives. And I wonder, you know, you in your own lives, you had the benefit of having

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a supportive family around you. In the case of Michelle, who even all became vegan. But

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what about your interaction with other fellow conservatives? Was it always like this supportive

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attitude toward your lifestyle? Or was it sometimes, you know, there was a clash or maybe

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some judgment on your choices? Michelle, would you like to answer?

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I would say for the most part, it's been pretty, I don't know, since I went vegan, I've kind of made

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my social circle smaller, because it's not always so well accepted or received. My father just kind

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of shakes his head at me. However, when we go for Sunday dinner, I don't eat what they're eating,

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I make something else. And my father is always in the background going, Oh, that smells so good.

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What is that? And I'm like, Oh, come and take a taste. And he'll come and take a taste. And he's

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like, Oh, my God, what did it? So of course, you know, I tried to give him the recipe. And he's

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getting older. He's in his seventies. So I'm like, you should eat healthy, you know, I want you here

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longer. Like I lost my mom way too soon. I don't want to lose you too. And you got to stop eating

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so much junk. Eat healthier. The people at my work, they're actually pretty supportive. Like,

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you know, we tend to go out to dinners occasionally. And so they always try to find somewhere that's

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either vegan, or has vegan options. Me personally, I prefer if I'm going to go to a restaurant for it

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to be fully vegan, just because I've seen craft contamination, I've worked in kitchens, and it's

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just, I'm sitting there laughing somewhere, you know, my husband, as I said, super supportive,

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my son is super supportive. My oldest son, not so much, he loves to send me like horrible mean

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vegan news. And he thinks they're funny. So yeah, there's that. But it's okay. I like to take little

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digs at him too. And then we just laugh at each other and move on. Because you know what, at the

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end of the day, I have a great sense of humor. Some say I even have a dark sense of humor,

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to some degree. So I just kind of laugh at him and move on. In fact, there's a place here in Florida,

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in Orlando. That's where I go to that. That's where I want to take my non-vegan friends to.

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Sorry, Michelle. Yeah, I'm not hearing you well, all of a sudden.

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Now? It sounds better, I think. Yeah. Okay. Let me Yeah, can you can hear me now? Yes,

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yes, this is better. Okay, so sorry about that. Sorry. Is it this kitchen, by the way? Is it? Oh,

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my god, no. But I love that place. Let me tell you, we went there and ate one time and the strawberry

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milkshake like, you know, people always say, Oh, well, what do you miss since going vegan? Okay,

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so one thing I used to say was, Oh, man, the strawberry milkshakes from Chick-fil-A. Hello,

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can I get an amen? And when I went to eat those, and I saw they had one, I was like, Yeah, let me

372
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:05,440
get one of those. Sorry, they would put Chick-fil-A out of business overnight. Their strawberry

373
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:12,160
milkshakes are phenomenal. But no, it's the Winter Park Biscuit Company. You know, the place that

374
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:20,400
has a line around the block. Yeah, I have a t shirt in the closet right here. I love that place. My

375
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:25,920
dad's like, No way. This is not chicken. I'm like, Yeah, it's like witchcraft. Right? Yeah, super

376
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:31,200
delicious. So good. But that's our that's our vegan junk food. You know, like, we don't eat like that

377
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:37,040
on a typical. But that's just that's our little guilty pleasure when we go there to eat. Yeah,

378
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:42,080
there is a new place too. It's called Dharma. I don't know if you've heard that place. Yeah,

379
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:47,520
Dixie Dharma. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we my girlfriend and I love traveling for food. So we'll go to

380
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:54,560
Orlando. We'll go to Tampa, St. Pete. Have you been to Paisley Vegan Kitchen in Melbourne?

381
00:43:54,560 --> 00:44:01,920
I don't think so. Gotta try it. They even have a donut shop connected to it. And oh man, like,

382
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:09,200
the black and seitan is my absolute favorite. So good. My husband always gets the chicken and

383
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:16,720
waffles. Yep. Cool. Paisley Vegan. I got it here. Yeah, so good. Take some notes listeners. Yeah.

384
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,840
So so where were we? I know that you had a question there, Ryan. But I

385
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:33,440
Yeah, so I was wondering, you know, what makes being vegan and conservative difficult and

386
00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:44,320
or rare? And maybe it was the lack of social support. Yeah, I would say that I'm the odd one

387
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:52,240
out. And again, like my social circle, in fact, a lot of my friends aren't even totally sure about

388
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:57,520
my political leanings. I think some of them have an idea and some of them have even made comments.

389
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:04,000
But again, I'm a musician. I'm an artist. I'm a cyclist. I hang around with a lot of lefty,

390
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:10,800
progressive type people. You know, so so that's my friend group where I think maybe some of them are

391
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:16,640
just apolitical. And if they do say something, it might be a little more left leaning progressive.

392
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:23,760
But I I'm the one who has maybe read up a little bit more. I have done done research, and I've

393
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:30,240
thought about these things. And I am also less afraid to say that I think this is the view of

394
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:37,600
the world that would improve society or that is is better for the world. So I wouldn't say that I

395
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:44,320
have had any issues, because if anything, I'm I'm the odd one out. So I'm, you know, by being vegan,

396
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:50,560
it's it's pretty accepted. But being conservative is the part that's that's where I'm facing

397
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,480
issues. I already have some friends who've said a few nasty things to me thinking that I'm,

398
00:45:54,480 --> 00:46:00,000
you know, racist or a bigot or something when a lot of my viewpoints come from the opposite of

399
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:05,920
that from embracing the individual from giving everyone an opportunity and not taking away from

400
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:12,160
others and giving others so that there's like more dependency on on government programs and all that.

401
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:21,120
Like I, I think that if everybody did their best, we would have a better society. So that's that's

402
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:27,360
kind of just a summary there. And, and I one point that I do want to make, because there, I do have

403
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:33,760
some conservative friends, and one of them is actually one who turned me on to pro life thinking.

404
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:40,160
And I said, Oh, you know, and I made a point that maybe a lot of people bring up about abortion. And

405
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:46,320
I was like, Well, you know, it's gonna, it may stop crime, and it may, you know, help certain

406
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,560
situations socially. This is a few years ago that I had these thoughts. And he said, Well, that's,

407
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:55,760
don't you think that's a little bit like eugenics saying that we should kill off this population

408
00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:01,440
because they might be problematic for society and allow these people to live. It's an unfair

409
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:07,600
generalization. And, you know, I agreed with him. And so he's he's my conservative friend.

410
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:17,680
And we have talked about veganism, and he is in total agreement, other than his behavior. You know,

411
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:23,920
we've talked about it. And and he, you know, jokingly one time, or perhaps not so jokingly,

412
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,560
but he was like, Stop talking, because you're going to turn me vegan. I was making points

413
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:33,520
to everything I was I was rebutting everything that he was saying I was linking it to conservative

414
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:41,280
values linking he's a Catholic person. So linking it to stewardship that we have upon earth and God's

415
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,640
creatures and would he be proud if Jesus came back to earth today and saw it. So you know,

416
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:55,520
I was making all the points. And I think the only reason why he is not is precisely the the lack of

417
00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:04,880
social support, the stigma around like what a vegan is a vegan is a screechy, annoying, loud

418
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:12,000
person who makes you feel bad. And it's all these pre programmed ideas of what a vegan is. And he's

419
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:18,000
saying, Well, I can't, I can't become part of that. Like, that's not, that's not who I am. I'm not

420
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:25,040
that type of person. So, again, going back to the question of why I signed up to come on here is to

421
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:31,680
show that you don't have to be screechy, annoying vegan to just believe that animals deserve to be

422
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:39,200
left alone and not treated as objects or commodities. So and that you can be somebody

423
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:44,400
who has right wing ideas or conservative and adopt these morals, because it doesn't take any

424
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:51,680
privilege. It doesn't take any social class, or any wealth or anything to become vegan. You don't

425
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:58,240
have to be of a particular background to adopt morals. It's not a privilege to adopt morals. So

426
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:07,600
kind of a lot of answers there for you, Ryan, to pick through. But I do, yeah, just want to maybe

427
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:18,720
reiterate that, that I think way more conservatives would adopt this ethical stance, if it didn't have

428
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:26,000
that negative social stigma, which is why I think we have to represent ourselves in numbers, Michelle,

429
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:31,840
as as conservatives, and then Ryan, just as a level headed, rational person who likes talking

430
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:39,040
about this, and, and wants to promote this idea that within all of us is probably already there,

431
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:45,840
right, causing unnecessary harm is wrong. That, that's a baseline, I think most people can agree

432
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:54,800
with. So just just showing up and showing people that you can be level headed, rational, and calm,

433
00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:03,200
and and have these views. And I 100% agree. I mean, I don't think this should not be a political

434
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:10,240
issue. This is the mass murder of billions of sentient beings. We should not put it in a in

435
00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:20,000
the liberal or conservative spectrum. I think it's just that we should think about it as we need

436
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:27,600
a lot of people to become vegan and fast, whether they are conservative or liberal, who cares.

437
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:34,720
But it's more complex than that in reality. And we need to take into account, I think,

438
00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:42,400
the political stance of, of people. And so my next question is, what kind of arguments can we

439
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:54,240
use with conservatives to influence them and try to advocate for for veganism? Did you ever think

440
00:50:54,240 --> 00:51:00,000
about it? Do you have experience with it? Michelle, I will let you start.

441
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:09,040
Um, so I actually love this question. Because I remember, you know, just a few short years ago,

442
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:15,920
I was that person that used to mock and laugh at vegans, you know, I, you know, you see the me and

443
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,760
that's like, oh, the vegans coming over for dinner, we can just send them out into the front yard to

444
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:27,920
eat the grass. And ha ha ha, those were funny. And I think for bringing people to vegan, right, like,

445
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:35,120
for me, it was my journey that I took. And I think that they're so we're so quick to put everybody

446
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,200
into a little box. This is what this means. And this is what this means. And this is what this

447
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:45,360
means. And I think we need to break down the box, get rid of it, shove it out the way, get them in,

448
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,560
teach them, you know, like, find that common ground, there's gonna be something that's gonna

449
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:56,080
bring somebody in on that common ground. For me, my journey started because of my health,

450
00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:03,920
my I had diabetes, my weight was out of control, I've dropped almost 150 pounds, and my a one c

451
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:10,400
is in with normal range. Now, I'm more conscientious of what I put in my body. It's not just food for

452
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:20,400
food, it's food for fuel. And I've always been someone who just I, I love animals. And so that

453
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:26,240
was it for me, you know, for some people, it's going to be, obviously, it's the ethical, but for

454
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:30,800
some people, it's going to be the environmental bit of it. And for some people, it's just, there's

455
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:37,280
always going to be some touch point that we can reach them with. You know, I was watching

456
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:45,760
Dominion, and when they were inseminating the cows, and I'm thinking as a woman, how can we as women

457
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:55,840
support an animal being raped? How can we support that? So that you can have milk or burgers or

458
00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:02,640
whatever on your kitchen table? How is that right? Would you support your mother, your sister, your

459
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:11,120
aunt, your daughter being raped? Absolutely not. It was just so it's it's, I feel like it's little

460
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:18,720
things like that, you have to find that common ground. And to go base, I just want to touch on

461
00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:25,840
something that Andres had said as well. As a conservative, we are painted one way, we're

462
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:34,960
painted as, you know, these racist and bigoted and you know what, far from the truth. My husband is

463
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:43,040
my husband is black. So I'm pretty deep, I guess, in a community where I know lots of black

464
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:53,280
conservatives. And bigoted, I don't think so. You know, I have family members that are gay, and I

465
00:53:53,280 --> 00:54:01,680
have family members who, you know, identify as trans. And that's their journey. It's not my job

466
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:08,480
to judge them, you know, it's, and this is coming to my Christian values. That's between you and

467
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:13,520
God, what you choose to do in your life. At the end of the day, it's between you and God, it's not

468
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:18,800
my job to stand up here and judge you. I am not going to throw stones when I myself have a glass

469
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:27,920
house. You know, I've been through so many things in my life and made poor decisions. And now as an

470
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:35,520
as an older female, I feel like, you know, we we continue to grow, we continue to mature, and we

471
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:41,040
continue to make new choices. And I think people are so quick to go, well, I identify as this and

472
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:46,640
identify as that and identify as this. Stop identifying yourself, you're growing, you're

473
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:52,560
constantly changing. Today, you might be one way and tomorrow another. Just a few years ago, I was

474
00:54:52,560 --> 00:55:00,160
a diehard, you know, carnivore and made fun of vegans. Today, I'm the complete opposite. And I

475
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:06,960
think people need to stop with the whole identities and just come together, find that common ground.

476
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:16,640
And let's do what's right. You know, stop harming these animals that have no voice. Let's be their

477
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:24,320
voice for them. But I'm not, you know, I'm not saying like, go out and dump all the milk out of

478
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:29,520
the refrigerator at the grocery store, because at the end of the day, it's about supply and demand.

479
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:35,200
So if you're increasing the supply, you're also increasing the demand, you need to reach people

480
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:40,960
on a different level. Have that one on one conversation with them. You know, I told you,

481
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,680
I work in a bank, I have people that sit with me all the time. And they'll talk about, you know,

482
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:50,480
oh, foods that they like to eat. And then when they find out I'm vegan, and they're like, wait,

483
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:56,080
what do you eat? I'm a foodie. So I take loads of pictures of everything that I make. And I'm like,

484
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:00,400
oh, let me show you my Instagram. And I whip out my phone and I start showing them dishes I make.

485
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:07,120
And they're like, that's vegan. Yes, that's vegan. And they're just mind blown. You know,

486
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:12,160
they're like, holy smokes. There's no way I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, we have like little potlucks

487
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:19,120
at work. I'll bring stuff for food. And they love what I've made. And so I just, I think we have to

488
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:23,760
reach people, you've got to look for that common ground. That's going to be the biggest thing.

489
00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:32,160
Yeah, I totally agree with, with reaching common ground. I mean, that's the, that's the ticket for

490
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:39,040
effective activism, I think is like understanding what the person believes, and then responding to

491
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:45,520
them, which is why listening is such an important aspect of activism or talking with people about

492
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:51,280
this. It's not just having all these loaded up statistics and facts and figures, but it's

493
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:57,440
listening to what they're saying and then responding empathetically and trying to think about

494
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:02,720
what they must be thinking as you are telling them these things and kind of going from there.

495
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:08,080
Ryan to go off of that question about how we can

496
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:17,680
gain more conservatives to this, to this stance. Education, going off of what Michelle was saying,

497
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:22,720
yeah, just people, a lot of people don't know. My mom tells me all the time, because I do sit her

498
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:28,960
down and talk with her about it. And I know that she's a, you know, compassionate and nonviolent

499
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:35,840
person who would not want to contribute to it. But it's a matter of education, habit,

500
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:44,000
misconceptions, stuff like that. So just talking with people. And then, again, keeping that calm,

501
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:50,400
rational tone, I think Earthling Ed says that any, any discussion that you have with somebody that

502
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:56,880
you don't lose your cool, that you don't resort to name calling or ad hominem attacks, that's a win.

503
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:03,360
Because it shows that a vegan who's typically portrayed as overly emotional, irrational,

504
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:09,760
kept their composure and was able to talk about an emotionally charged topic. So education,

505
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:17,360
keeping a calm and rational disposition, appealing to their beliefs of individual liberty. I mean,

506
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:24,320
again, so much of this is linked with, with what we, what we aim to do with animals, which is to

507
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:29,920
just allow them to exist. You don't have to love animals to allow them to exist. You don't have to

508
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:36,080
love someone to refrain from stabbing them in the throat, right? You just if even if you don't like

509
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:41,440
them, you still leave them alone. It's the base standard that we have for other humans, we can

510
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:46,880
afford that to animals too, because there is a way to exist without exploiting them. Vegans are proof

511
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:52,640
of this. So just kind of appealing to these things that they believe. If they are, if they are

512
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:59,840
Christian or Catholic, I mean, I, there are so many Bible passages that that we can look at, they will

513
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:06,880
present their own Bible passages that that claim that meat eating is fine. But for every one that

514
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:13,280
there is that could be construed like that, there's one that's pretty certain that says, leave

515
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:18,640
animals alone, I've given you the seeds of the earth for food, and, and, you know, ideas like

516
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:25,680
that. So the Bible passage exchange could get a little a little heated, but just talking with them

517
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:32,000
about Jesus's teachings and and like what God would want, what he want. I mean, I find that it's

518
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:38,160
breeding animals into existence, in a way is is kind of like playing God, you know, you're, you're

519
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:44,080
bringing them into existence, you confining them, and you're killing them at a premature, at a

520
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:51,120
at a premature, at a fraction of their natural lifespan. So, you know, if you're appealing to

521
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:58,800
their beliefs in in God and the the order that he would want for his creatures and for his world,

522
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:03,680
I think that many people would disagree with that. And if God does want that, what does the devil

523
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:13,120
want, right? Like, what would the most evil force want, if not animals to be sentient beings to be

524
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:18,400
suffering all day until they're killed at a fraction of their lifespan? I mean, it's it's pure evil.

525
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:24,400
And I think most people can recognize that after they strip back the conditioning and the layers.

526
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:35,200
And one last point, the definitely like the masculinity is an issue, because we have, or

527
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:40,640
certain people have this perception that it comes from overly emotional people who can't handle

528
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:45,280
the idea that an animal suffered. And they'll bring up like, you know, what does a lion do? And

529
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:49,360
like, do you think that a lion cares and stuff like that? Like, no, you have to, you know,

530
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:54,560
embrace this, like, you know, where the top of the food chain and things like that,

531
01:00:54,560 --> 01:01:00,320
where I think that's playing into, like, what people feel about masculinity and about, you know,

532
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:06,080
taking charge of your life and stuff. And with that, I would just point to another example,

533
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:12,160
where we think that the person who is most masculine and the manliest is the one who's

534
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:20,480
protecting innocent and vulnerable populations. If there's a guy who gets out of his truck to help

535
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:26,240
a duck, you know, walk across the street, he's a hero. If there's a guy who rescues a puppy from

536
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:32,160
a burning building, he's a hero. And that's shown as a sign of masculinity. If a guy is helping an

537
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,880
older lady, a strong man is helping an older lady carry her bags and go across the street, that's a

538
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:41,760
hero, that's masculine, that's using his strength for good, and all these things. And then we turn

539
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:50,320
around and say that it's masculine to breed, enslave, mutilate and confine vulnerable, innocent

540
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:55,520
beings. I mean, it goes completely against what we were just saying is masculine. This is the

541
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,840
easiest thing you can do. Of course, you can put a chain around somebody and put them in a little

542
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:07,760
cage. That's like the opposite of strength. It's very easy, and it's exploiting the most vulnerable

543
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:14,880
population. So, you know, kind of reminding them that masculinity is using your strength for good,

544
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:20,320
using your manliness and your abilities for good. Just because we can do something doesn't mean that

545
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:27,280
it's morally right. Might makes right is an argument that we encounter a lot that because we

546
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:34,160
encounter a lot that because we can because we are the apex, we are justified in doing this. No,

547
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:40,160
we can do it the same way I can harm somebody unnecessarily. I have the ability to do that.

548
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:45,440
I can ball up my fist and punch a toddler. I'm not going to do that. It's the wrong thing to do the

549
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:55,600
same way it is wrong to harm animals unnecessarily. Those are very good points. And yeah, first of

550
01:02:55,600 --> 01:03:02,080
all, I truly believe in the capacity of people to become vegan, whatever the background is.

551
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:10,240
And I've had guests on this podcast who have been workers of the animal industry, not just eating

552
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:17,040
meat, but working for the animal industry for slaughterhouses and such. So if those people

553
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:25,040
can make the transition and become vegan and become vegan advocates, then why? Why are other

554
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:31,840
people? Why is it so difficult for other people? You know, that's always a question that baffles me

555
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:39,840
and I have to put myself in the shoes of others. And yeah, Andres, it's all about speaking the

556
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:46,960
language of the person you're interacting with. And that's why I think this episode is important,

557
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:53,280
because if you don't know conservatives, if you don't know what you're thinking,

558
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:59,040
who they are, where they come from, how can you speak their language and then influence them

559
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:07,200
to become vegan or at least get them to care a little bit about animal welfare? I want to quickly

560
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:14,800
talk about religion. I had a question for you, Michelle. If the leaders of your church, and I

561
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:24,320
assume you go to church, said that animal welfare was important, talked about veganism,

562
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:36,560
would you have felt influenced or would you have considered veganism earlier? Yeah.

563
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:45,920
Absolutely. Absolutely. They do host things throughout the year. Like, the church we go to

564
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:52,880
is also a school. It's a private school and my son attends that school. So throughout the year,

565
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:59,520
they do fundraisers, they host like bake sales and dinners and what have you. And so I always

566
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:04,880
bring something and everybody absolutely loves what I bring. I usually bring like a

567
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:09,680
vegan chocolate cake and everybody just goes crazy for it. They're like, oh my gosh, I need this

568
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:16,160
recipe. And when I tell them it's vegan, they're just like, what? No, absolutely not. I'm like,

569
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:21,840
yeah, a hundred percent vegan. They're like, this is the moistest, most chocolatey yummy cake I've

570
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:30,800
ever had. And yeah. So, but I think, yeah, absolutely. If that was something taught as a child,

571
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:36,800
I feel like yes, it would have happened sooner. In fact, this is kind of a conversation me and

572
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:42,320
my sister sort of touch on, but not really. Like I said, I like to call her a vegetarian

573
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:52,880
and she has a young son. He's 11. And I think for her ethically, she struggles

574
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:59,840
feeding him meat, but she's concerned that he's not going to get enough protein or that he's not

575
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:07,920
going to get enough nutrients. But I think that's, that's not, that is no longer a good valid

576
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:13,360
excuse. And I don't really want to say that to her because I don't want to have that like aggressive

577
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:20,640
in your face kind of conversation. But I feel like for me as a vegetarian, I don't want to be

578
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:28,080
a vegan. I feel like for me as a vegan today, it's much easier to be a vegan today than it would

579
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:35,040
have been for someone say 10 years ago, because there's so many resources online. You can research

580
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:41,920
till you're blue in the face, how to eat healthy and how to maintain all the nutrients that you

581
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:49,200
need to thrive. There's, you know, recipes that you can research. So there's just, in my opinion,

582
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:58,160
H and H, there's no excuse for it. None, none. But I get it, you know, coming from a mom's perspective,

583
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:05,280
it's, it's hard for her to go, well, I don't want to harm my child. But you are actually harming your

584
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:12,240
child, because you're teaching him a lifestyle that's not a healthy and good and sustainable

585
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:18,560
lifestyle. You know, like when I watched What the Health and they talked about all the things that

586
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:25,680
milk products and meat products did to your body. Well, no wonder, you know, and if you're going to

587
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:31,840
start someone at a young age, eating those types of foods, what's that going to do for them in their

588
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:35,120
adult life? That would be like if you took your child and decided you're going to raise them on

589
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:41,520
gummy bears and Twinkies. As an adolescent, then when they become a young adult or an adult, they're

590
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:46,480
going to continue with that lifestyle. And they're going to become morbidly obese with all kinds of

591
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:52,800
health problems. Why don't we look at like, you know, meat and dairy and things of that nature

592
01:07:52,800 --> 01:08:00,080
the same way? Yeah, it's, it's a good point. And for a long time, I was not convinced by the health

593
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:07,600
argument. Because I think partly, you know, I come from a Mediterranean family. And so we have a

594
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:12,880
Mediterranean diet. And it's hard to make the point that veganism is healthier than what they're

595
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:19,200
eating. But yeah, there are many vegans who are convinced by the health arguments, and then down

596
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:28,640
the line, they, they are exposed to the ethical arguments, and then they stay vegan for ethical

597
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:37,200
reasons, not so much for the health part of it. Let's end this conversation, maybe with this final

598
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:44,240
question. Did you have something to add? Nothing really resounding. I just wanted to say thank you

599
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:51,600
so much for putting this together. I think this is a great first step. I feel like these conversations

600
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:57,840
need to be had more. I know, you know, like, when we go to vegan restaurants, when we first started

601
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:06,000
going, you know, my husband being a black man, he was just astounded every time he saw like, another

602
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:12,880
black man or another black woman. And he was just like, Ah, okay, you know, because when we lived in

603
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:20,160
Alabama, we lived in this really teeny tiny town, right. And the population was probably 99.9%

604
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:28,000
white. And it was literally him and our landlady who was black. So we had this like ongoing joke

605
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:33,360
every time I would go to Walmart. If I saw like another black person, I'd be like, Hi, Loni,

606
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:37,600
there's another black guy in here. You want me to invite him to the monthly meeting? And so it just

607
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:43,680
it became this like joke between us. So now when we go to these restaurants, and he sees other

608
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:50,880
people, he's just like, Oh, and I think that as we, you know, expand our numbers, when we start to see

609
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:55,760
other conservatives, too, I feel like that that's going to help to bring in more conservatives. And

610
01:09:55,760 --> 01:10:01,840
then we can all start to have that conversation. There goes my light again, we can all start to

611
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:07,440
have that conversation. Because now we've all found that common ground between, you know, the

612
01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:13,600
liberals and the conservatives, and how we're all vegan, and we're doing great things together.

613
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:22,080
Amazing. Andres. Absolutely. Yeah, I've read somewhere that because there's a lot of

614
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:29,920
black owned vegan businesses here in South Florida. So I see a great representation of

615
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:36,400
of vegan people who are black here in South Florida, I read somewhere that it's the fastest

616
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:47,120
growing group of vegans. And some theories involve having them like, black people who

617
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:53,920
have come from Africa understand like the oppression that that they faced in the past and

618
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:59,600
like are now applying it to the oppression that animals feel. So that's a theory that's going

619
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:05,920
around for why they're the fastest growing. I can't speak to that. But yeah, I think it's an

620
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:10,880
argument that Gary, you know, who we talked about in the beginning of the podcast, you know, he

621
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:20,160
always talks about how it's easier to convince someone who has been oppressed or who came from

622
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:27,760
a background of oppression to become vegan than someone who hasn't. Yeah, yeah, totally.

623
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:36,720
So that's that was cool. I wanted to make one other link to maybe my awakening in becoming

624
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:44,880
conservative and my awakening or maybe another person's awakening into becoming vegan is that

625
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:52,720
documentary What the Health really exposes a lot of lies that we're told by these industries

626
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:59,680
that want to make profits from people, pharmaceutical industries, food, food companies,

627
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:04,800
and all that. And it kind of like exposes that there's like all these all this manipulation

628
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:11,280
going on to the public. And I kind of felt like that was what was going on in the last like five

629
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:16,640
years or so when I started like looking into certain topics more. It's all about like media

630
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:25,600
perception, liberal, good, conservative, bad, and and just like how we're manipulated to believe

631
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:29,760
certain things we're manipulated to believe that animals don't matter. We're manipulated to believe

632
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:35,680
that conservatives are bad, evil people. So I think that What the Health documentary might be

633
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:40,720
pretty good for conservatives to say like, Hey, I don't want to participate in this industry where

634
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:45,040
so many people are lying to me because, you know, maybe the modern conservative might be,

635
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:52,000
especially in like, like my age group, you know, might might be a little more cynical and skeptical

636
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:59,280
of big programs like that. So they might be saying, well, if I'm cynical of government and

637
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:05,200
big programs like that, maybe I can also be cynical about these lies that were being fed about the

638
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:12,960
food industries and clothing industries and all that. And one last point, and thank you for the

639
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:17,120
and thank you for the opportunity to share final final closing thoughts, because Michelle, you were

640
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:23,200
saying a bunch of cool things there. And you were saying how some people believe that veganism is

641
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:31,520
extreme. And there's another another vegan philosopher, activist personality online, Gary

642
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:36,560
Francione, maybe Ryan, you're you're familiar with him now. I'll send you a link. He's he's good. He's

643
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:45,680
a professor at the University of Rutgers, I believe in New Jersey. He and I disagree on certain things.

644
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:52,880
I think he's way more liberal with a lot of his politics. But he's recently gotten into some

645
01:13:52,880 --> 01:14:00,880
trouble because of some views that he has on about trans people and and their beliefs. So I'll allow

646
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:06,000
you to investigate that on your own. But he's kind of an interesting character with his views. But

647
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:13,280
final thing that what he says, veganism is not extreme. What's extreme is teaching your children

648
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:20,560
to love animals, and then teaching that you can harm the ones you love. Right? That's a very

649
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:27,360
dangerous message to be promoting, right? And that that animals matter, but they don't when it comes

650
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:33,920
to food, clothing, and entertainment and medicine. So it that's, that's a point that he makes about

651
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:42,080
the extremism of non veganism. And I wanted to share that. Yeah, I don't like that word. I prefer

652
01:14:42,080 --> 01:14:48,320
the word radical, because, you know, we're going to the root of a problem. And, you know, we're

653
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:55,360
changing ourselves. So in a way, it's radical. But even then, you know, there are people who

654
01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:02,720
don't make truly difference between, you know, radical and extreme, but I make it, you know,

655
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:10,320
I think extreme is not the adequate word for veganism for vegan transition. But radical would be a

656
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:17,600
better word, because it is radical. I mean, it is life changing. I agree. I agree that it's radical

657
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:24,320
in our current society, in the way that society is structured right now. I believe that in its

658
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:32,880
most fundamental form, in essence, it's inaction, right? It's veganism is the absence of exploiting

659
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:38,000
animals. Whereas right now, the standard is to exploit animals. This is this is the opposite.

660
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:45,040
It's saying I'm leaving other people alone, I'm actually abstaining from acting. So in a way,

661
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:50,800
I would say that it's not radical at all. It's it's the the common baseline decency that we have for

662
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:58,720
other people. So but yes, in our current society, for sure, it is radical. And I would also oppose

663
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:05,600
the idea that it's radical to to refrain from causing harm to others, right? Most people are

664
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:10,320
in agreement with that. We're just the ones who are saying, well, now it's time to act like it.

665
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:17,760
And let me stop paying for animal products, animal services. Yeah, I like how you flip it on its head

666
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:23,360
and say, you know, I have more of a passive vegan approach than an active vegan approach.

667
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:27,120
So did you want to comment on that, Michelle? Or are we good?

668
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:35,040
Well, I was I actually had a thought while he was talking. And it kind of went to like,

669
01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:39,520
when you were talking about, like, black people coming more to be in vegan. Yeah.

670
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:46,320
And just thinking back through history, right? We as humans have done, like, horrific things.

671
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:52,560
But we continue to evolve. You know, there was like Hitler and the Jews and

672
01:16:54,080 --> 01:17:00,320
the blacks being enslaved and people being enslaved still to this day, you know, but we

673
01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:06,240
continue to evolve. We just have to learn to stop supporting those companies. You know, we don't

674
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:13,760
buy certain brands because we know that they're using child slave labor. And so I think it's just

675
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:23,680
people need to wake up, do their research, look at these huge companies and what are they supporting?

676
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:28,240
You know, don't just go out and buy that product because that's the product that you want.

677
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:35,120
Is it ethical? Is it a right thing to do? Maybe, you know, in another 50 years, more people are

678
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:40,160
going to come to this movement and be like, gosh, I can't believe we were so horrible that we did

679
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:49,440
that 50 years ago, you know, killing and torturing animals. And maybe in 50 years from now, it's

680
01:17:49,440 --> 01:17:55,920
going to be a different, it's going to be different because as we all come together, I feel like

681
01:17:56,560 --> 01:18:02,480
we can speak to it, you know, and as conservatives, we can, we speak the language, right, of the

682
01:18:02,480 --> 01:18:09,920
conservatives. So we can speak to our conservative friends and reach them. And, you know, we can

683
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:16,560
know liberals can speak to their liberal friends and bring them in as well. I think that's the

684
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:22,480
foundation. You got to have a good foundation. Yeah. I subscribe to what you said, Michelle,

685
01:18:22,480 --> 01:18:29,920
and I'm so proud that we are a part of that change, that first, you know, wave of changing

686
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:40,240
the world to make it a better place for animals and against animal exploitation. Yeah. So again,

687
01:18:40,240 --> 01:18:46,320
thank you very much, both of you for having answered my invitation and my questions.

688
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:54,240
It is truly appreciated. Thanks so much. Thank you for having us. Thank you everyone for listening.

689
01:18:54,240 --> 01:19:02,080
What a great and inspiring conversation this was. I invite all of you to share this episode with the

690
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:09,120
conservatives, you know, family, friends, maybe this will make a little difference in increasing

691
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:17,600
that 2%. As always, let me know if you liked this conversation, leave me a good review or reach out

692
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:24,640
to me on Instagram at vegan report podcast. Thank you again for listening. Take care and see you

693
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:51,440
next Tuesday for a new episode.