Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.
If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure
where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with
passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special
contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Today, we are going
to talk about Catholicism and veganism. The Catholic Churches count around 1.3 billion believers,
which represents the largest Christian grouping worldwide. Historically, the influence of the
Catholic Church has been transformative to say the least. Nowadays, it still represents a far
reaching cultural and political force. And I wonder, what would the world look like if the
Catholic Church embraced the cause of veganism? I know what you're thinking, this is just a fantasy,
it will never happen, but that means you have not been paying attention to the Church, which is
slowly but surely getting more and more concerned for animal welfare, opening the door for vegan
advocacy. Let me give you one example among many. Back in 2015, Pope Francis wrote in an encyclical
which is basically a letter addressed to the entire Church, clearly, and I'm quoting now,
clearly the Bible has no place for a tyrannical anthropocentrism, unconcerned for other creatures.
And I looked up the definition of anthropocentrism and it means regarding humankind as the central
or most important element of existence, especially as opposed to God or animals.
And he continues, this responsibility for God's earth means that human beings endowed with
intelligence must respect the laws of nature and the delicate equilibria existing between the
creatures of this world. And let me just repeat the first part. Clearly the Bible has no place
for a tyrannical anthropocentrism, unconcerned for other creatures. This sounds strangely as a
denunciation of animal exploitation, like we know it to be. To talk about this topic, I have with me
Daniel Mascarenhas. Daniel is a Jesuit scholastic studying to be a Catholic priest. As a vegan,
he speaks publicly in defense of animal welfare, making a point that the teachings of his faith
go hand in hand with veganism. He is notably the one behind the website vegancatholic.org,
and you will find the link in the description, which offers resources and arguments encouraging
Catholics to become vegan. Daniel, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Ryan. It's good to be here.
It's good to talk about veganism. Can you tell me a little bit more about yourself?
Where are you based? How old are you? Those kinds of things. Yes. So as you mentioned,
I'm a Jesuit scholastic, which basically means a seminarian. So I'm studying to be a priest.
I have been in the Jesuits in the Society of Jesus for seven years now. God willing,
I'll be obtained in three years. So I'm currently studying theology at Boston College.
I'm 36 years old. I grew up in South India and I moved to the US about 14 years back for graduate
school in mechanical engineering. I worked in tech for a while in California, and then I entered
the Jesuits. I grew up Catholic. I had my ups and downs with the faith during my college years,
but now I can say that I'm devoutly Catholic. You are in training, like you said, to become a
Catholic priest. And I mean, no disrespect, but most of what I know about Catholic priests,
I learned from horror movies. And recently there was one released called The Pope's Exorcist,
and I think it featured the actor Russell Crowe. So let me ask you, what is the function of a
Catholic priest? What kind of commitment does it require from you? And is it like any other job,
any other job, but your employer is your church like a rabbi?
I have watched The Exorcist, which is the, I think it's from the seventies or the eighties,
a famous movie. It was actually, I think, based on a story in St. Louis where I lived for three
years. So I had some idea about the movie. I don't like horror movies, so I don't know much about
how the Catholic church is portrayed in horror movies. As a priest, you know,
my role is basically to kind of accompany people in their faith. In the Catholic church, we have
something called the sacraments, which is the most common one that you might think of as Holy
Communion. So when you go to church, you will see Holy Communion. So as a priest,
you can think of a priest as a mediator, someone who is chosen by the people of God
to kind of mediate a relationship between them and God. Obviously, we cannot relate to God directly
as well, but the Catholic church believes that all of us have different functions. And so the
priest's main job is to accompany people in their faith by providing the sacraments.
I think that would be kind of a very basic overview of what the priest does.
In terms of like employer-employee relationship, you know, since I worked with the Catholic church,
I worked in tech for a while, I would say it's very different. I hope I'm serving God first.
I do have a local boss, if you may be called them, superior. So basically, my superior kind of talks
to me and sees, how am I doing? What am I interested in? Where is there a need? A church?
And so we are sent to different places. Right now, I'm obviously studying, so that's my main job.
But once I finish studying, then my superior will talk to me and see what am I interested in.
And he might suggest certain things that there is a need in the church or in the country where I can
be sent. So it's a very dialogue-based relationship with my employer.
So as I understand it, it's a life call. It's a 24-7 function. It's not something...
Do you take breaks? As a Catholic priest, do you take like a week off or something like that?
Or is it really like a full-time commitment?
Yeah. So we take vows. They're called the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
So it's a way of life, as correctly mentioned. It's not like I can switch off being a seminarian
or a priest, but we're not studying or working all the time. So it is a way of life. So every day,
we need to live our lives as a good witness to the gospel. All of us should... At least all of us
Christians should be doing that. But as a priest, we are especially called to be good witnesses to
the gospel all the time. But that doesn't mean we work all the time. As a student, I basically have
a student schedule. There's classes and homework and reading and so on. I enjoy being outside. So
in the summer, during fall break or spring break or winter break, I like to go camping and hiking
when I can. I like to ride my bicycle, play tennis. And so depending on what hobbies we have,
that is free time. And we also do some ministry at a church, but as it's in the Bible, God took
rest on the seventh day. And so we are all invited to make sure we have a good balance of work and
rest and see how do we like to use the time for relaxation in a way that brings us joy.
So for me, it's mainly being outside or I like to work on my vegan website or I like to bake.
So those are my hobbies. Well, thank you. I'm learning new things about, you know,
Catholicism and what it's like to be a priest because in my mind, it was very something like a
mystical calling. Like you go in top of a mountain and you become unreachable, but you're making the
point that no, you're reachable. You're still, you know, human being. You don't, you know,
there's no saint aura around you. Once you become a priest, you still have, you know,
hobbies and things like that, which is good to know. Yeah, it is. It is a healthy to have.
I mean, interest besides your work, even though serving the church and serving God's people is
like my highest calling, I think it is helpful to have other pursuits and interests that
open up ourselves to other things in the world or to new relationships with other people,
something that brings the creative side out. So I think we all look for a good, healthy balance.
To have good relationships, you know, to make friends, it's very important to have time.
You're working all the time. It would be really hard to have good relationships with friends and
family. So we are encouraged to have those relationships with people around us. That needs
time or that needs common interest. And so I live with a bunch of guys here and we're always trying
to figure out what people like to do. Like yesterday, I played tennis with one of my
Jesuit brothers. He's from France and we had a really good game. I mean, it's kind of fun to
find somebody who's about the same level as me, so it was a good competitive time.
Lennon How did you come to, was it something
like a true calling? Like you did not have control over it. It was like an overwhelming feeling and
you had to become a priest. Or is it like a gradual discovery of the faith? And at the most
more basic level, how did you discover Catholicism and you became interested? Was it
where you raised as a Catholic? So I'm really curious about, because I mean, you have chosen
something, a vocation that is, you don't see many people making that choice. It is a bit radical.
It is a bit like becoming vegan actually in how radical it is. So could you talk about that?
Dr. Sajad Zalzad Yeah, I grew up Catholic. I grew up in South India and my family had been Catholic
for many years now, I guess going back around 250 years or so, maybe longer. I had, you know,
I grew up in a pretty traditional sense of being Catholic culturally. And I kind of fell away from
my faith during college. But there were a couple of things that made me think a little bit. One was
incident in college where I was involved in an outing to the beach and some of the students
drowned. And so being close to death as a college student made me reflect on the big picture, you
know, what is life about? And how is God supposedly present in this moment of grief and suffering?
What is the point of things that happen around us? Is it this pure accident that is completely a luck
of the draw that these young men died or was there some sort of over out purpose? So that kind of
made me think a little bit more and helped me kind of like go beyond my engineering studies.
And then when I moved to the US, I met a priest who I felt was the first person who I could talk to
about suppose that conflict between science and religion. And, you know, the basic questions about
Genesis, obviously, how did the world come to be, or the Galileo affair, so on. And it was
really helpful for me to work through those ideas with a companion, great great great father Bob,
who, you know, kind of tried his best to answer the questions, but more importantly, encouraged
me to seek the answers myself through conversation, through reading, and so on. And so gradually, I
came to be more comfortable with the idea of the Catholic faith, that it makes sense, it's logical,
you know, obviously, it cannot be proven scientifically, that faith is a different
kind of knowledge. So it's not the same as scientifically proving something.
And so I was, I got more comfortable with the idea of different kinds of knowledge,
you know, scientific knowledge, and the kinds of knowledge. And, yeah, and so I think that was a
good, good meeting with Father Bob. And so I see my faith more from a standpoint of,
if you have heard about Bayes theorem, so in statistics, there's, when you're trying to predict
a future outcome, there's no 100% certainty. All you can do is you can increase or decrease
the probability of something happening based on current evidence. And so, with my faith as well,
I'll be honest, there's no way to 100% know that Catholicism is true. There is just no way.
And so all you can do is continue seeking out what is out there, what are people talking about,
what about scripture, what about experience, like how do you sense God's presence in your life?
Does morality make sense in the Catholic Church? Does morality make sense without the Catholic faith
or without the Christian faith? And so all these things give me the confidence that, that, that
God is present and God wants me to follow a certain path. It is not 100%, nothing in life is 100%.
And so I think why my faith is mostly based on the idea of acquired confidence that increases
my experience and God is continuously inviting me. So when you talk about a call, you know,
it's not like God told me that you should do this or else, you know, it's more like a sense of
God gently inviting me. And for me, I never thought I would be a priest when I was younger.
It was not something I ever thought about. I got the call, if you may, one fine day when I was
praying, I was just sitting in this chapel. I wouldn't even call it praying. I would just sit
there two or three times a week kind of in silence. This is a way to collect myself because
life is pretty busy when you work in tech. And I just got to start, what would I be happiest doing?
I just had to start like, what would I be happiest doing? And I was like, I'm going to be a priest.
And for some reason, the answer came a priest. And I talked to myself about that has not happened
before. I have never thought of being a priest. But I thought, okay, this would be a good time
to continue reflecting on that idea because I felt more energized and excited when I talk to people
about the bigger picture, right? Where are we going after this, after our life here? What is the point
of our life here? And things like that. What is the meaning of suffering? Things like that. Those
kinds of conversations gave me more energy and excitement as compared to working in tech. And so
I felt like through that, and then I talked to some priests and asked them, what gives joy to
their life? What makes them happy? What makes them excited to get out of bed every morning?
And so the more conversations I had with people who were in this life, the more I felt like,
I want to do that. I want to be part of this where I can journey with people as they seek
something deeper, something more meaningful. Eventually, there was no way again, my life is
not 100% certainty. It's always going to be the case. There's no way to know if that's what God
wants me to do. So I figured the only way to do it is to try it out, see how I feel. And so for seven,
it's been seven years now, I'm still here. And I just feel like this is where God wants me to be.
There's joy in my life, there's excitement, there's a sense of purpose. And I feel that's how God calls
us by giving us a sense of purpose and a sense of feeling like this is what it's meant to be. Now God
will not be unhappy if I leave or try something else. The main thing God wants from me is to
seek Him. There are many ways to follow God and there might be some other way out there. But for
me, it seems like this is the place that God wants me to be. So it's more of an invitation, I would say.
The word call can sometimes have a more like a strong connotation. An invitation respects my
freedom and my choice.
Well, I'm really happy to hear that. You know, another perception I have of our Catholic priest is
the austerity that comes with this vacation. And you don't think about being a Catholic priest as
something joyous or, you know, that brings a lot of happiness in one's life. You think of someone
who is very, who has, you know, lots of austerity, lots of, you know, just being very serious. But
yeah, I'm so glad that we live in a world where this is an option, where you can choose to become
a Catholic priest to just go beyond, you know, worldly matters and things like that, and find a
lifestyle that truly, truly suits your needs or your personality in that way. Because thinking
about it, there are not a lot of jobs resembling Catholic priests. Maybe a philosophy teacher in
the university, maybe. So becoming vegan is, I said earlier, a bit like becoming a priest, but
actually it's more like converting to another religion, because you make such radical changes
in your life that there is no other comparable experience than converting to another religion.
At least that's my perception. But becoming vegan was a decision closely related to your fate, and
you actually published some essays related to that on your website. So tell us the story of
your vegan journey. How did you become vegan? And why did you start advocating veganism?
Because it's wanting to become vegan, but to take the step further, you know, to create your website
and start speaking up about veganism, that's something else entirely.
Yeah, that's the two parts of that question. The first thing about why I became vegan, you know,
I would say, I think I always had that at the back of my mind. So when I was young, I grew up
in the village. And so we had chickens and pigs for a while. And every time we slaughtered any of
them, there was always something in me that would move me and I would try to be out of the house and
I knew that, but that we're going to be slaughtering a chicken or a pig in our backyard,
because I didn't want to hear the noise, the squealing, right? There was when I was young.
And I think as we grow up, we are forced to think about like, okay, that's just how it is.
You know, that's what we do. That's what we eat. So you would just have to deal with the pain
somehow, because there's no other option. And I think I grew up to that. And then when I was,
when I finished college, I was kind of like briefly interested in care for the environment.
And I think I read an article saying that, you know, that meat and dairy is like the biggest
contributor to global warming and things like that, or climate change as they call it. And so
I became vegetarian for a while, right after college for maybe about a year or so,
because I cared about the environment. Then I moved to the US. It was really hard to be
vegetarian in the US, or at least I didn't try hard enough. So I forgot about that.
Then Pope Francis wrote that encyclical, which you mentioned at the beginning, and I thought,
okay, like I'm Catholic and the Pope says we need to care for creation. I don't seem to be doing
anything about it. And so I remembered my time of being vegetarian. I was like, okay, I guess I
could do that again. And so I became a weekday vegetarian. So I would not eat meat at all,
Monday through Saturday, no need of Sunday. And so I thought, okay, everybody could reduce their
meat consumption by 90%. We would, you know, really reduce our carbon emissions. I was like,
okay, that makes sense logically. So all of us should aim to reduce our meat consumption.
So those were, I think, baby steps. And then one day, I mentioned this in my website, this is like,
you know, an important part of my journey. I met a student. So I was at St. Louis University
studying philosophy. You know, I did think a little bit about the problem of evil, like the
problem of suffering. There's so much suffering in the world. Like, what is God doing about this?
Like, why is God not putting an end to suffering? So I had that sense of like, okay, I'm going to
suffer in the world. Where is God? What is God doing about this? And one day when I was
at the university, a student, he was a Hindu, and from India, or at least of Indian descent.
So he recognized that I'm from India. So he came and talked to me and said, Okay, like, you know,
you, you are Catholic, you're going to become a priest. And you say that you are following Jesus
supposed to be like this really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really
be like this really role model about peace and compassion and kindness, you know, the gospel,
Jesus talked about love and care. So how can you as a follower of Jesus participate in something
that's so cruel, something that's, you know, so unnecessary, and still call yourself a disciple?
Right. And I thought, you know, wow, that's a good question. And I said, the Catholic Church,
I've never really heard that eating meat is a sin. It's considered bad, like everybody's meat and
those who are Catholics. But I gave it some thought. And it really made sense to me that
like, the idea of being a Christian being a Catholic is about following Jesus. And if I'm
going to be a disciple of Jesus, then I need to live the way he called us to live, show kindness
and compassion. And obviously, showing kindness to a human is different from showing kindness to
a dog or a cow. And it's different from showing kindness to a tree. Because a tree and a dog,
and human experience love and kindness differently, but they all do experience kindness. And so what
does it mean to show kindness to all and so that really stood with me. And I was like, you know,
what, this is an important thing to think about. I'm also physically very healthy.
And so I thought, okay, I don't want to like spoil my health, you know, maybe meat is needed for
good functioning of my physical body. And I thought, I don't want to just give up meat and
then become unhealthy. So I started doing some online research on Mayo Clinic and Cleveland
Clinic, like reputed websites in the US. And they seem to suggest that it is quite okay to be vegan
and be healthy, you get all the nutrients that you need. And then I watched the documentary Game
Changers. And, you know, they talk a lot about how it actually improves one's health. But for me,
it was less about high performance. I mean, I like being outside, but I'm not a high performance
athlete. All I wanted to know was whether a vegan diet is neutral, meaning, can I just be healthy?
I don't have to be a high performance athlete. And it turned out to be the case. Yes, it was. So
you can be vegan, you can get all the nutrients you need. And that's it. Like, so why am I eating
meat? Like, I don't need to eat meat. If I eat meat, or dairy or eggs, I'm causing unnecessary
suffering. And around the same time, I also started reading about the Catholic Church stance on the
issue. And there were a couple of lines that stood out to me, like two points, specifically,
besides the idea of following Jesus. One was in the Bible, Genesis, that says, God gave humans
plants to eat, very clearly said in the creation story that God gave humans plants to eat, not
plants and animals. Later on, obviously, people started eating meat. But the idea is that God
initially intended humans to eat plants. That's in the Bible. And the other is, there's a line in the
Catechism. So besides the Bible, the Catholic Church also has a book called the Catechism,
which is like a list of teachings on all sorts of topics. And there's a line that talks about
our relationship with animals that says, it is contrary to human dignity, so it's not good for
humans to cause animals to die needlessly. So it is not good for humans to cause animals to die
needlessly. Now the word needless is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Meaning, you can cause
animals to die if it is needed, obviously. But it is not good if you cause animals to die needlessly.
Now the question is, is need needed? So in an English sense, the word need is something that
you cannot do without, like you have to have it. So I'd like to give the example of driving a car.
So if you want to go from point A to point B, I need a car, say it's really far away, I need a car
to go from A to B. But do I need a Ferrari? No, I could drive a Toyota. I still need to get from
point A to point B, but what would be the best way to do it that would be in line with being a
follower of Jesus? So Toyota would be something that's simple, it uses less money, it uses less
gas. So do I need a car? Yes. Do I need a Ferrari? No. So I think of it as need as being a Ferrari.
It is like a luxury. It is not needed. I could still survive and be happy and healthy by eating
beans. So in that sense, need is needless. That's the way I see it. Need could be needed if you are
on a desert island and you're dying of hunger and the only thing you can eat is like a deer. Well,
you have to eat it. But in our culture here, I think need is needless. So anyway, those are the
two lines about the Catholic faith that I think point towards the idea of care for animals.
As to why I speak out about it, I think I wrote an essay about when silence is not an option. The
idea basically is in our culture, we are very used to the idea that, hey, you do what you want,
don't tell me what to do. It's a very libertarian view of things. I don't subscribe to it, but a
lot of people say that's how we are supposed to be. But okay, fine, you do you. But the problem
with you do you is when there is a victim involved, then what happens? So for example,
if I steal something from somebody else, from Jim on the street, we don't say, okay, Daniel,
you do you. You want to steal something from Jim, fine. No, we speak on behalf of Jim because Jim
is a victim of robbery. We think we should care for Jim because Jim might not be able to care for
himself. Maybe he's old or maybe he's disabled or maybe, I don't know, didn't want to fight.
So in our society, we do speak on behalf of victims, like all sorts of victims, murder,
theft, rape, other things. And so animals are voiceless victims. And so we cannot really just
say you do you, right? Okay, I'm not eating meat, but I cannot just say you do you because
we always speak up for victims in other cases, like robbery. We don't say, hey, you can go and
rob whatever you want. I will not rob, but you can do what you want. That's not how it works.
And so our Catholic faith calls us to speak on behalf of the victim, right? Especially in
the victim's voices. And so that is my motivation, the idea that God calls us to love and also to
encourage other people to love. So it's not like I just do my loving, I follow God's commands,
and hopefully I will get to heaven. I don't care about you. I don't care about you. I don't care
about you. So my idea of speaking up about veganism, I think that veganism is a good thing.
Okay, it's a way that is calling me to love more fully, more completely, right? And so if I have
found something good, I want to tell my friend Mike about this idea that shows me how to love
more completely. So if Mike is my friend, I would want to tell Mike, hey, Mike, you know, I think
God is calling us to love all creatures. And I think I want to invite you to consider loving
all creatures as well. So it comes from a place of love, both for the victim and for the person
who's committing problem, right? So when it comes to meat, I want to love the animals who are
voiceless and supprent. So I want to love them and speak on their behalf. And I also want to love
Mike who's eating meat because I want to tell Mike, I think there's a better way to live here,
but you can show more kindness. And so it's from a place of love, right? So in the Catholic faith,
the definition of love is, is to will the good of the other for their sake. Okay, so I must wish
the good of the other for their own sake. So when I speak about veganism, it's from a place of love.
I want to love the animal. I want to wish them well, one animal should suffer. And I also want
to love Mike who's eating meat because I feel Mike is not being fully kind and compassionate.
And so if, if I think this is a joyful and meaningful life of being vegan, I want my friend
Mike to also participate in a joyful and meaningful life. Is that making sense?
Yes, it makes a lot of sense. And I'm so happy that you put it that way, because that's how
I actually feel. You know, when people ask me about my veganism, I always say it comes from
a place of love. It's not that I feel pain thinking about animals and what they're going through,
or I feel guilt or I feel anger. It's truly because I love animals. And I want people around me to
to share that love for animals. Yeah. And you know, I think it's important to also talk about
love for people who eat meat because I myself ate meat for many years. But secondly, to see that it
is not casting judgment on meat eaters. So if I tell my friend Mike about veganism, it's not because
I want to feel superior or I want to kind of put him down and kind of criticize his life and pass
and pass some judgment on Mike. But I want to tell Mike like this idea of caring for animals,
this idea of showing kindness and compassion is a more meaningful life. It is a more joyful life.
And it is this living more closely to the call of love and passion that Jesus talked about. So if
Mike is Catholic, I will, I will obviously approach Mike from a Catholic standpoint and say,
like, Jesus calls us to love and show compassion. So, like, what does it mean to show love and
compassion to a cow or a dog? And so if you think this will be a better way to live according to
what Jesus is inviting us to do. So it's important to also talk about love for people who eat meat.
Because I think a lot of times vegans can be seen as judgmental, you know, and like trying to like
prove you wrong. But no, I think if we approach it from a space from the standpoint of love that
Mike, like, I love you, I care about you. And so here is something I think of more meaningful
and joyful way to live. That would be a very different approach from trying to prove that Mike
is wrong. Well, that's a difficult one. And I certainly had to work on it because, you know,
when I first became vegan, I had so much anger for people around me and for meat eaters. And,
you know, I almost became that vegan who, you know, will not sit at the table where there is
meat served or something like that, who, you know, I'm, I don't want to put judgment on vegans who
take that stance, because it might be a good way to advocate for veganism, you know, showing,
showing how veganism is important for you, to your to the people around you by, you know,
taking the radical position of not sitting at the same table as they are. So maybe this is like,
you can see it as a advocating technique, strategy. But if I'm thinking about the feelings,
you know, I had that anger. And I often talk about it in my in those in this podcast,
about the upset and the anger that many vegans feel toward other meat eaters, how they are
frustrated with the situation, how they don't feel understood, how there's this horrible thing
happening out there, and nobody seemed to pay attention to it. And the pent up feelings that
you have thinking about it. So yeah, I really had personally had to work on it, just for the sake
of my mental health. And that's what I say to vegans, you know, you don't have to forgive the
the meat eaters or the people participating in the exploitation of animals, or not even love them,
maybe you're not at that, you know, level. But at least don't feel upset about it, because it's
going to eat away your mental health. Would you agree with that? Yeah, you know, we all have our
journeys on how to come to terms with when the rest of the world doesn't seem to care. I'm
actually working on an essay about the idea of living in hope. So for a Catholic, hope is a very
important virtue. So for us, hope is the idea that God has good things planned for us in the future.
And we know that God will give it to us. So I think that there are good things in the future,
that God will, will bring peace on earth. You know, yeah, it is, it is, we all have different
ways of dealing with it. One thing when I get upset, I, so I live with all non-vegans. So I
have to see meat every day, my house and dinner, like, and it's hard. So first, I pray, I always
pray. So I pray to that God gives me the strength to, to, to persevere, to continue with this cause,
but also to just be kind and compassionate to the people around. I pray for the animals who had to
die for this. And I pray that God, you know, bless them wherever they are after their death.
And I think there's also a prayer in me that says that even if I don't see the results of my activism,
it doesn't matter. Right. We are called to do good things. God invites us to do good things,
even if nobody else is doing anything good. Right. So I doing good does not depend on how many people
are doing, but I'm invited by God to do good. So I am trying my best to do good. I trust that God,
the future sometime will bring peace on earth. So in our Catholic tradition, we believe that there
will, like Jesus will come again. There will be the last judgment. And, you know, in the end, God will
bring justice and mercy for all. So there's a sense that this is beyond my control. Right.
Even if I'm the most famous vegan speaker out there, it is not going to change everybody. Like,
that's just a given. I'm going to die long before people become vegan. That is just true. Like,
not to compare myself, you know, with any great social justice advocates out there, but, you know,
Martin Luther King comes to mind. Like, he knew he would be long dead before there's justice,
racial justice. Jesus also died well before, you know, everything else that was supposed to happen,
happened. So there's a real sense that I'm not in charge. God is in charge. Right. So I say my
prayers. I pray that God gives me the strength. I pray for the animals. I pray for my friends
and my Jesuit brothers that their hearts will be converted. And I just remind myself that God is
in charge. Like, I'm not in charge. God is inviting me to do what I can. I also have a section on my
website for prayers, especially for prayers that are asking us to, like, let go and let God be in
charge and do what we can. There's a real sense of freedom and confidence that I will not see the
results. I will not change the world. That's okay. I do what I can. I continue to ask God, okay, God,
what do you want from me? I will try my best. If the world doesn't change, that is God's responsibility.
God has a plan. For me, that is a constant prayer, right? That let me let go. I have not converted a
single person in my life to veganism. Okay. Nobody has become vegan because of my, like, let me just
put it out there, but that's okay. You know, it doesn't mean I should stop talking about it or
stop being vegan. It's fine. Even if no one changes, that's okay. This is what God invites me to do.
I'm doing my best. God is in charge. I hope that's helpful. First of all, you don't know. I mean,
maybe you have influenced someone and that person just did not reach out. You know, that happened to
me. You know, someone close to me who one day reached out and said, I'm vegan. And part of the
reason why is because of you. You know, you have been a good example and you made me discover that
whole world. And I was like, why didn't you say anything earlier? I mean, that would have been
great for my self-esteem if I had known, uh, maybe two years earlier, but, um, yeah. And also,
I, I am realizing how important religion is, um, in, you know, maintaining, um, a sort of
mental health in our modern modern society. We tend to, you know, put religion aside, but
truly when you think about the great, um, people behind social justice movements, like Martin
Luther King, like Nelson Mandela, uh, and others, faith had played a big role in, uh, their activism.
Um, and I think had participated in preventing that, um, activism fatigue that many of us have.
Um, but in their case, it was about, you know, racial justice, uh, and other cause, but yeah,
I think that spirituality can, can be helpful for, for some vegans out there, um, in, you know,
maintaining, um, their, their beliefs, maintaining their, their mental health.
Yeah. You know, I don't want to speak on behalf of, of vegans who are not spiritual or not religious.
So we all have to figure out what will give us, because I tend to see, or at least in my
conversations with vegans in person, but also online, there's a lot of emphasis on, on the
effect that they are having. So as I said, nobody has converted because of me. I'm fine with that,
because my idea of being vegan is that I can serve God, I can get closer to God.
That is independent of what happens around me. So if one does not have that sense of,
of a higher purpose, then the purpose has to come from around you. So if it is not from there,
it has to come from around, right? And so if around you, you are seeing no effect at all,
people are just eating meat all the time, you are surrounded by me. No one seems to care about your
veganism. No one wants to talk to you about veganism, or no one wants to talk to you because you
are vegan now. Now you've suddenly, your purpose that is coming from around you seems hopeless.
My purpose comes from God. So that sense that, okay, like no matter what is happening around me,
I'm invited to follow God and try my best to invite other people. You know, and there's a real
sense that even if there are no results, that's fine. I have lived the best way I can, the way God
invited me. And God is in charge. So there's a real sense of letting go, right? And so I think,
for me, spirituality is an important factor. And the other place where I think spirituality
has been important for me in the whole conversation about veganism, I've actually had this
conversation with people where they say, how do you know, like, why is killing animals bad?
And if there's no, like, transcendent element to this, there is no right answer to this.
There is no right and wrong. So those who are radical materialists, all that is, is atoms and
molecules. I'm made of atoms and molecules. The tree is made of atoms and molecules. The dog is
made of atoms and molecules. There is no morality. There's no right and wrong. Like, why is it wrong
to kill a dog? If I want to eat a dog, I should eat a dog. The only reason I will not kill a dog
is because I might be sent to jail. Because that is, at least in the US, you cannot kill dogs.
So then morality becomes dependent only on the law. And so it is impossible to have a conversation
with somebody who just does not care, who does not believe there's a right or wrong. There is no
sense of heaven or judgment. I'll just do whatever I want, as long as I don't get arrested. That is
a very common morality in the US. I will do whatever I want, as long as I don't get arrested.
Well, there's no way to have that conversation. So I always approach veganism from a standpoint of
following Jesus. So I can only talk to Christians. Like, it's really hard for me to talk to someone
who doesn't have a wider view of the world. Because if a person doesn't care, there's nothing I can
say. But if a person says he's a Christian, then I can ask him, okay, you are a Christian, you claim
to follow Jesus. What do you think about Jesus' command to love others? Does the others involve
animals? Would you kill a dog or a cow just for the sake of it? If Jesus is standing, imagine Jesus
standing next to you. Would you kill a cow or a dog or a pig just for fun? Imagine you've had a
nice meal of chickpeas and curry, and you are fully satisfied. You're not hungry or starving,
and you are hanging out with Jesus. And you see a pig walking by, would you just take a knife and
slaughter the pig? What would Jesus think about that? So I use Jesus as a starting point, because
when I talk to Christians, I know I have something in common. If I talk to people who are not
religious, it's really hard to find a starting point. Now, if they say that they are compassionate
and kind people, okay, that's a starting point. But I've had people who say they don't care.
If they say they don't care, I don't know what else to say. There's nothing I can say that's
going to change their mind. So it's easier for me, there's some spirituality involved.
You know, I would say first of all, to those people who are not religious, because I myself,
I'm not someone who's particularly religious, but it brings a lot, a great deal of happiness and peace
to follow some moral rules in your own life to know that your presence, your existence is not
your existence is not causing harm to other beings, that you're actually making a good
difference, a positive difference in this world. I don't know in in my case, that's where I found
a great deal of meaning in terms of what I'm doing my actions. Yeah, I mean, that experience you were
talking about about people basing their whole moral view of the world on rules, and the legality of it,
I actually encountered that with that same scenario with religious people arguing with me how,
you know, it's not in my religion. So why should I care? You know, God does not require that from me.
So no, I will not give up meat, I will not give up dairy. And that's why I'm so happy to find people
like you who, in my book, are more consistent, you know, for me, someone who defends the environment
should be vegan. If you care about the environment, and you're not vegan, then I'm sorry, but I won't
listen to you. This is not this not making sense. Just as someone who claims to be religious claims
to follow a higher purpose, but is not vegan. What are you doing? What about you know, the mass
slaughter of billions of sentient beings, and you're just passing by that, that fact that horrible
evil, and saying that you're still, you know, a good religious person, you know, doesn't make much
sense to me. You should at least show some sympathy to that cause, if you're not ready to become vegan.
Yeah, you're right. There are many religious people who follow like a rules based idea of faith.
You know, I would invite them. So the way I see the Catholic faith, and I think the Catholic
Church is talking more about this idea of moving from a rules based approach to what we call a
discipleship approach. So the faith over time became more about following a bunch of rules,
doing certain things, and then hoping to go to heaven, right. And but now we talk more about
discipleship, like our whole lives now, and in heaven, is about being a disciple of Jesus Christ.
So everything needs to be viewed through that lens, right. So the way I talk to people,
what I do with my free time, whether I go to church, you know, the way I treat those who are,
you know, poor, all that is about discipleship, not about rules based. And so I think I would
encourage religious people to view Christianity, I speak of Christianity here, to view Christianity
as a discipleship, a sense of every little thing brings me closer to Jesus or takes me away from
Jesus. And I need to examine my life through that lens, not whether I'm checking a bunch of things
off the checklist, but whether something I do and care about is it bringing me closer to Jesus.
I think that would be a healthy way of looking at our faith. And the care for the environment
thing, you know, I have a way from when we talk about care for the environment, care for creation
for two reasons. One is the word environment, or in Christian terms, we say creation,
is this amorphous, faceless entity, this whole universe around me. There's no sense of
relationship with that. It's just too big. The universe is so large. What can I, as a small
person in this huge universe do to care for the universe, for the environment? It's just so big.
It's so out there. It's faceless. There's no relationship. We should talk about creatures,
each individual creature. How do I care for a tree? How do I care for a dog? How do I care for a dog?
Those are individual creatures. That makes a relationship possible. The other reason I don't
talk about care for environment as much anymore is because it becomes a sense of I care about the
environment because if I don't, I will be suffering. So when we talk about climate change,
oh, I want to care for the environment only because I don't want to suffer, or we humans
don't want to suffer. So it becomes a very transactional care and concern. It's no longer
about care because for its own sake, it's care because I am worried what will happen if I don't
care. And so I think of it more as I have received a gift from God. All of the world around me is a
gift from God. How do I treat that gift with respect? So that is my concern about care for
the environment. It becomes very transactional versus the idea of receiving it as a gift and
respecting it. So those are my two points about what you said. But I hope everybody is caring in some way
or the other. I just feel like we could look at care for the environment slightly differently
because I think it will help us have a better relationship with the world around us.
I'm so glad to hear you say that because I always had the belief that the environment argument
is not strong enough to convince someone to make such radical changes in their lives and become vegan.
And even if it is, are they going to stay vegan for the following months, years? No. The best
way to stay vegan, I think, is to think about the ethical side of things and the creatures that you
are impacting. So let me ask you something I'm dying to ask you actually. I'm glad, like I said
before, that religious leaders like yourself are concerned with animal welfare and advocating for
a vegan lifestyle. However, my criticism has always been that veganism is presented as a good
addition to your spiritual, religious practice. It's a plus, but it's certainly not a requirement.
A practice that I would compare to that is meditation. It's a plus in your religious practice,
but it's not a requirement. Or pilgrimage. You can make a pilgrimage, but it's not a requirement.
So, you know, my question is, would you consider talking about vegan lifestyle as not just a plus
in a spiritual practice, but really as a requirement, something that is the will of God,
actually, and that if you're not vegan, that would be considered as being sinful. You know, eating meat
should be considered sinful. So is this too radical or did you ever consider that question
in those terms? Yeah, that is a rather deep and complicated question. I will not make any
pronouncements on whether it should be a requirement or church teaching. Again, I will go back to the
idea of discipleship or the idea of relationship, since that might be a more common word out there.
Relationship. So if you love your mom, okay, so every interaction with your mom
is something that strengthens or weakens the relationship. So I wouldn't rule something out
completely. Yeah, you could hurt your mom, but she might still have a relationship with you. But if
you keep hurting her all the time, well, that's not good. So if you really care about your mom,
and you love your mom, you might start doing things that will strengthen that relationship, right?
So that's always a good way to think about what is sin. So again, moving away from the rules-based
approach, the idea of sin now is since the past 60, 70 years, is talked more about as turning away
from God. So it's not like I did this, therefore it's a sin. It's more like, is my life towards God,
or is it away from God? Are my actions and my thoughts moving me towards God or away from God?
So any thoughts, words, or actions that move me away from God is a sin. And so if we knowingly
participate in cruelty, I think it is turning away from God, because we believe God is love.
And so cruelty is not associated with love. And so that idea of participating in cruelty, knowingly
and willingly, is turning away from God. So I don't like to use the word requirement. Again,
I think I have a strong sense of freedom and free will and things like that. I think if we start
viewing things as loving God and moving towards God, we will examine all aspects of our lives,
not just what we eat, but the way we talk to people, what do we spend money on? We care for
the people. What do I read? What kind of media I consume? Again, this is not because I'm
scared of going to hell or I'm in a straight jacket, I'm always walking with a serious face,
but the sense is I want to be with God. And so I examine all aspects of my life through that lens,
including what I eat. So I wouldn't call it rules or sin or requirement, but more of a sense of
really wanting to be a follower of Jesus and then examining all aspects of my life.
So I cannot be vegan and then just be really hateful to the people who eat meat around.
That's not helpful. Now, it's good to be vegan, but now that I'm being hateful to the guys around
me, well, that's not helpful. But all aspects of my life, how am I responding to all situations
in the most loving manner? And that is kind of the approach I'm trying to advocate through my
advocacy on my website is that we need to view our life as a relationship with God, with people,
with animals. And all of those relationships have to have a positive sense to it. You have to have
a sense of kindness, compassion, care. And I think I would encourage the church, who I was listening
from the church, to start seeing our faith as a relationship with Jesus, not as a set of rules,
and whether we're going to go to hell or whether we commit a sin. Is that a helpful answer? I'm
not trying to evade your question, but I think that's the way I see it.
No, I think I understand it because like you said earlier, you're trying to avoid
judging other people. And I guess it's part of that. Then let me ask you, if the church
publishes like a decree or something saying, okay, now eating meat is considered sinful,
would you agree with that decree? Would you follow that position?
Yes, that would be easy for me. I would agree with it. Again, so the definition of sin,
right? Again, is any action that turns you away from God, that's a sin. So the church says
eating meat turns you away from God. I would agree. Right? So I think that's the way I would
agree. Right? I think causing suffering in animals, knowingly, willingly, is moving ourselves away
from love. God is love. So by causing suffering and pain, we are not being loving. So I would agree
with that. Whenever you see the word sin, church teaching, I would encourage you and other listeners
to just have that definition of sin. If the church says something is sin, just think of it as
turning away from God. And I would agree if the church comes up with a compliment that says
something like that. And another question I am dying to ask you is about evil. I tend to use
the word evil to describe the animal industry and animal exploitation. And I cannot find another
word actually to describe that because it's such a hurtful industry, not just for the animals,
but also for the workers, for the environment. It's like every way you look at it, this industry
is doing something wrong or is hurting someone somewhere. So I want to know, am I using this
word correctly? Can I have your theological approval of the use of this word? Or does evil
have another meaning here that escapes me? And do you agree with that assessment that this industry
is actually evil? Yeah, the word evil is rather a strong word. I don't have a clear grasp of
what is the context in the Catholic faith. The best definition I've heard of evil,
a shorthand, is the absence of God. So God in the Catholic tradition is all good. God is perfect.
So God is complete goodness, truth, and beauty. So an absence of God, so an absence of truth,
an absence of goodness, an absence of beauty is evil. In the animal industry, especially the
factory farming industry, I think that's an absence of goodness. Sentient creatures, creatures who can
be pain and suffering are put in such horrible conditions for their whole life. That is an
absence of goodness. So that's evil. And I would kind of use that lens of seeing the animal industry
as it is an absence of goodness. And so an absence of goodness would mean an absence of God.
And so it could be seen as evil. But the word evil can be kind of a strong word,
mainly because we tend to look at evil from a human suffering standpoint. A lot of people
don't want to equate humans and animals. So that is where I see there might be some concern about
using the word evil in a non-human context. If we're thinking about that evil, how is it
possible to still believe in a benevolent God who is there looking at this and not intervening?
Because I feel like at least in my personal experience, what makes me the most skeptical
about the existence of God is looking at pictures of factory farming. It just makes me doubt that
there is any force of goodness, mighty force of goodness out there. But I feel like this is the
opposite for you. You talked in the beginning of this interview about that drowning episode
that truly marked you during your college years. And that made you closer to God and to your faith,
which in my case, that would have made me take my distance from faith and God. So I'm just wondering,
how do you conceptualize that whole situation? How do you make sense of that great evil
existing despite the existence of God? Yeah, before I answer the question,
I just want to clarify or make a comment about, I personally don't like to compare animal suffering
with human suffering. It just causes too many problems in the conversation. It diverts our
attention and people will immediately say, oh, you're comparing animals with humans. So I would
probably not compare those two. But the wider question about the existence of a loving God
and the existence of evil. One is, I cannot, this is an emotional response to this. I cannot
imagine suffering just being random. This seems so pointless. So a homeless person on the street
or someone who lost his legs in a car crash, that just being completely random and not having any
meaning just seems completely unfair. That I am living a comfortable life. I'm healthy. I have
friends. I'm happy. While somebody else is suffering and it having no meaning or no purpose
just seems so unfair. So that was, I think, my initial point. And you remember what I mentioned
about my college years. So that was kind of what I was thinking about. But then from a positive sense,
how do I explain it? I don't want to give any philosophical explanation in case someone is
actually suffering, either physically or emotionally. And I'm giving some easy answers.
All I will say is, I try to be humble and tell myself, I don't know the big picture.
Right. I have one certain example about like, think about like reading the Lord of the Rings.
You read the whole book and you kind of know what's happening and they finally finish the quest and
you know, goodness and kindness eventually wins, that evil is destroyed. Yay, everybody's happy.
But there's a long quest, right? But imagine if the Lord of the Rings trilogy, the three books
are like torn up, all the pages are scattered. And you just pick some random page somewhere and
that page is talking about the depths of evil, right? Of Sauron and all that. And you're like,
wow, this is such a horrible book. Like, wow, this book is just completely about evil and pain.
But no, you have not seen the whole book, right? And so, I remind myself that I don't know the
whole book. God is the only one who knows the whole book. And I have to trust that God,
who created me, has a point, has a purpose. Otherwise, God is a trickster. God must be laughing
at me right now. But I think a God who is so powerful and so mighty, doesn't need means
so that he can make jokes. Like, you know, it doesn't make sense to me that an all-powerful God
makes humans just so that he can laugh at you. So, I think God has a purpose, has a plan.
And so, that trust, when I see one page of a 2,000-page book, I have to somehow trust that
the other pages have meaning and purpose. And in the end, good will win, right? That God will use
the suffering that is around us for some good. And animals who are suffering, I hope God will
somehow redeem their suffering. Maybe animals have a faith life, you know, maybe animals,
like God relates to animals in a way that animals are capable of. Now, I can say a prayer,
because that is my human capacity, but a cow might be able to relate to God in a way that is
acceptable to the level of the cow, right? So, if God created me, God gave me a way to relate to God,
it's a gift from God. So, if God made a cow, I trust that God has given the cow a way to relate
to God. And so, when a cow is in a factory farm, I just pray that God somehow relates to the cow
and consoles the cow. And when the cow dies, I hope God will somehow redeem the suffering,
right? Because God doesn't need our suffering. God is not a masochist, you know, God doesn't make,
God is not happy by seeing us suffer, right? Because God is all-powerful. God doesn't need us
to make him happy. And so, that is my way of seeing evil, right? To really trust that God
wants good things for all of us, animals, plants, myself, you know, and that when we have evil,
we have to somehow trust that the big picture God is in charge of, right? And so, God is
God is in charge. God is writing this book that has an ending where we will all be with God
and filled with love, joy, and peace in the end. This is not the end. So, there's a saying,
all will be well in the end. If it's not well, it's not the end. And so, we truly believe that
in the end, all will be well in heaven. Right now, it's obviously not well. And I have to trust it
is not the end right now. And I think this will be a challenge in your vegan advocacy. Hopefully,
in the future, you will have a congregation. I think that's the right term. And when you're
going to talk about veganism, I think people will ask you about that because there are so many
people out there who just don't want to confront the reality of animal exploitation because
it's too much, it's too evil, too hurtful. Just accepting that reality would mean to challenge
your beliefs. And I think many believers, including Catholics out there, need to find an answer to
that because vegans in general are vocal about it. So, you will be confronted with that reality.
At some point, you will see anonymous for the voiceless doing, I think they call that a cube
of truth in the streets, showing footage of what is happening inside slaughterhouses. So, at some
point, you will be confronted with that and you will have to make a decision. Are you going to
become vegan? How are you going to make sense of what is happening? And so on.
Yeah. I mean, I obviously am confronted all the time with people around me or people asking
questions. And my philosophy is to continue asking questions and to continue my thought process.
I think someone once said, when you are presented with new information, what do you do? I changed
my mind. What do you do? So, maybe there might be some other argument out there that I have not
considered. An argument for eating meat that I have not yet heard. I have not heard anything good so
far, but I'm open that there might be some argument out there that I've not thought about. So, I
continue just being open to conversation, to being open to challenge and not to fall into the sunk
cost fallacy. The idea that because I have spoken so much about veganism and all that,
I have to hold on to it despite all the evidence. I want to be open that if there's a really good
argument out there, I would love to hear it and really consider it from a philosophical
standpoint and also from a faith standpoint. It's a challenge, people. I'm also very doubtful
about that. I see what anti-vegans just, how they comment on my posts and the messages they send me.
It's mostly trying to attack your person or just making jokes out of what you're saying.
It's never a good argument or good, it's quoting a weird study about how I would lose my limbs
because of my diet or something like that. So, it's always something strange.
My final question for you would be, did you have something to add?
My main invitation is this love for all of God's creatures. Ask yourself what is
the most important thing in your life? What do you want your life's story to be when people talk
about you in the present or in the future? What would you want them to say about you?
If kindness and compassion is to be a part of your story, I would invite you to consider
kindness and compassion to all the creatures out there, plants, animals, humans. To really
see, to really make your story one that is worth celebrating.
Amazing. I love that. Those are great final words. So, thank you so much, Daniel, for your time,
for having accepted to be a guest on the podcast. Thank you so much for the great work you are doing
and for representing, because I'm sure there are plenty of vegan Catholics out there who see you
and see what you're doing and thinking, yes, great, some good representation, someone who
expresses our feelings out loud and who is part of the Catholic Church leadership.
So, thank you so much, Daniel.
You're welcome. Thank you for your work as well, Ryan.
Thank you, everyone, for listening. I really enjoyed this conversation. Daniel is very smart,
thoughtful and insightful. The Catholic clergy is lucky to have him. And I'm happy to know he is
vegan. Please visit vegancatholic.org to support his work. If you know people who are Catholic,
share with them the link to his website or, of course, to this episode. And finally,
let me know if you liked this conversation. Leave me a good review or reach out to me on
Instagram at veganreportpodcast. Thank you again for listening. Take care and see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.