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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.

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If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure

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where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with

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passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special

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contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Today, we are going

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to talk about Catholicism and veganism. The Catholic Churches count around 1.3 billion believers,

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which represents the largest Christian grouping worldwide. Historically, the influence of the

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Catholic Church has been transformative to say the least. Nowadays, it still represents a far

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reaching cultural and political force. And I wonder, what would the world look like if the

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Catholic Church embraced the cause of veganism? I know what you're thinking, this is just a fantasy,

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it will never happen, but that means you have not been paying attention to the Church, which is

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slowly but surely getting more and more concerned for animal welfare, opening the door for vegan

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advocacy. Let me give you one example among many. Back in 2015, Pope Francis wrote in an encyclical

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which is basically a letter addressed to the entire Church, clearly, and I'm quoting now,

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clearly the Bible has no place for a tyrannical anthropocentrism, unconcerned for other creatures.

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And I looked up the definition of anthropocentrism and it means regarding humankind as the central

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or most important element of existence, especially as opposed to God or animals.

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And he continues, this responsibility for God's earth means that human beings endowed with

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intelligence must respect the laws of nature and the delicate equilibria existing between the

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creatures of this world. And let me just repeat the first part. Clearly the Bible has no place

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for a tyrannical anthropocentrism, unconcerned for other creatures. This sounds strangely as a

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denunciation of animal exploitation, like we know it to be. To talk about this topic, I have with me

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Daniel Mascarenhas. Daniel is a Jesuit scholastic studying to be a Catholic priest. As a vegan,

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he speaks publicly in defense of animal welfare, making a point that the teachings of his faith

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go hand in hand with veganism. He is notably the one behind the website vegancatholic.org,

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and you will find the link in the description, which offers resources and arguments encouraging

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Catholics to become vegan. Daniel, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Ryan. It's good to be here.

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It's good to talk about veganism. Can you tell me a little bit more about yourself?

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Where are you based? How old are you? Those kinds of things. Yes. So as you mentioned,

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I'm a Jesuit scholastic, which basically means a seminarian. So I'm studying to be a priest.

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I have been in the Jesuits in the Society of Jesus for seven years now. God willing,

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I'll be obtained in three years. So I'm currently studying theology at Boston College.

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I'm 36 years old. I grew up in South India and I moved to the US about 14 years back for graduate

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school in mechanical engineering. I worked in tech for a while in California, and then I entered

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the Jesuits. I grew up Catholic. I had my ups and downs with the faith during my college years,

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but now I can say that I'm devoutly Catholic. You are in training, like you said, to become a

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Catholic priest. And I mean, no disrespect, but most of what I know about Catholic priests,

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I learned from horror movies. And recently there was one released called The Pope's Exorcist,

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and I think it featured the actor Russell Crowe. So let me ask you, what is the function of a

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Catholic priest? What kind of commitment does it require from you? And is it like any other job,

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any other job, but your employer is your church like a rabbi?

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I have watched The Exorcist, which is the, I think it's from the seventies or the eighties,

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a famous movie. It was actually, I think, based on a story in St. Louis where I lived for three

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years. So I had some idea about the movie. I don't like horror movies, so I don't know much about

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how the Catholic church is portrayed in horror movies. As a priest, you know,

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my role is basically to kind of accompany people in their faith. In the Catholic church, we have

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something called the sacraments, which is the most common one that you might think of as Holy

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Communion. So when you go to church, you will see Holy Communion. So as a priest,

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you can think of a priest as a mediator, someone who is chosen by the people of God

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to kind of mediate a relationship between them and God. Obviously, we cannot relate to God directly

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as well, but the Catholic church believes that all of us have different functions. And so the

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priest's main job is to accompany people in their faith by providing the sacraments.

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I think that would be kind of a very basic overview of what the priest does.

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In terms of like employer-employee relationship, you know, since I worked with the Catholic church,

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I worked in tech for a while, I would say it's very different. I hope I'm serving God first.

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I do have a local boss, if you may be called them, superior. So basically, my superior kind of talks

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to me and sees, how am I doing? What am I interested in? Where is there a need? A church?

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And so we are sent to different places. Right now, I'm obviously studying, so that's my main job.

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But once I finish studying, then my superior will talk to me and see what am I interested in.

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And he might suggest certain things that there is a need in the church or in the country where I can

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be sent. So it's a very dialogue-based relationship with my employer.

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So as I understand it, it's a life call. It's a 24-7 function. It's not something...

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Do you take breaks? As a Catholic priest, do you take like a week off or something like that?

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Or is it really like a full-time commitment?

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Yeah. So we take vows. They're called the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

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So it's a way of life, as correctly mentioned. It's not like I can switch off being a seminarian

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or a priest, but we're not studying or working all the time. So it is a way of life. So every day,

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we need to live our lives as a good witness to the gospel. All of us should... At least all of us

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Christians should be doing that. But as a priest, we are especially called to be good witnesses to

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the gospel all the time. But that doesn't mean we work all the time. As a student, I basically have

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a student schedule. There's classes and homework and reading and so on. I enjoy being outside. So

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in the summer, during fall break or spring break or winter break, I like to go camping and hiking

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when I can. I like to ride my bicycle, play tennis. And so depending on what hobbies we have,

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that is free time. And we also do some ministry at a church, but as it's in the Bible, God took

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rest on the seventh day. And so we are all invited to make sure we have a good balance of work and

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rest and see how do we like to use the time for relaxation in a way that brings us joy.

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So for me, it's mainly being outside or I like to work on my vegan website or I like to bake.

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So those are my hobbies. Well, thank you. I'm learning new things about, you know,

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Catholicism and what it's like to be a priest because in my mind, it was very something like a

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mystical calling. Like you go in top of a mountain and you become unreachable, but you're making the

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point that no, you're reachable. You're still, you know, human being. You don't, you know,

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there's no saint aura around you. Once you become a priest, you still have, you know,

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hobbies and things like that, which is good to know. Yeah, it is. It is a healthy to have.

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I mean, interest besides your work, even though serving the church and serving God's people is

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like my highest calling, I think it is helpful to have other pursuits and interests that

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open up ourselves to other things in the world or to new relationships with other people,

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something that brings the creative side out. So I think we all look for a good, healthy balance.

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To have good relationships, you know, to make friends, it's very important to have time.

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You're working all the time. It would be really hard to have good relationships with friends and

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family. So we are encouraged to have those relationships with people around us. That needs

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time or that needs common interest. And so I live with a bunch of guys here and we're always trying

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to figure out what people like to do. Like yesterday, I played tennis with one of my

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Jesuit brothers. He's from France and we had a really good game. I mean, it's kind of fun to

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find somebody who's about the same level as me, so it was a good competitive time.

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Lennon How did you come to, was it something

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like a true calling? Like you did not have control over it. It was like an overwhelming feeling and

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you had to become a priest. Or is it like a gradual discovery of the faith? And at the most

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more basic level, how did you discover Catholicism and you became interested? Was it

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where you raised as a Catholic? So I'm really curious about, because I mean, you have chosen

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something, a vocation that is, you don't see many people making that choice. It is a bit radical.

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It is a bit like becoming vegan actually in how radical it is. So could you talk about that?

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Dr. Sajad Zalzad Yeah, I grew up Catholic. I grew up in South India and my family had been Catholic

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for many years now, I guess going back around 250 years or so, maybe longer. I had, you know,

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I grew up in a pretty traditional sense of being Catholic culturally. And I kind of fell away from

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my faith during college. But there were a couple of things that made me think a little bit. One was

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incident in college where I was involved in an outing to the beach and some of the students

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drowned. And so being close to death as a college student made me reflect on the big picture, you

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know, what is life about? And how is God supposedly present in this moment of grief and suffering?

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What is the point of things that happen around us? Is it this pure accident that is completely a luck

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of the draw that these young men died or was there some sort of over out purpose? So that kind of

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made me think a little bit more and helped me kind of like go beyond my engineering studies.

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And then when I moved to the US, I met a priest who I felt was the first person who I could talk to

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about suppose that conflict between science and religion. And, you know, the basic questions about

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Genesis, obviously, how did the world come to be, or the Galileo affair, so on. And it was

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really helpful for me to work through those ideas with a companion, great great great father Bob,

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who, you know, kind of tried his best to answer the questions, but more importantly, encouraged

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me to seek the answers myself through conversation, through reading, and so on. And so gradually, I

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came to be more comfortable with the idea of the Catholic faith, that it makes sense, it's logical,

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you know, obviously, it cannot be proven scientifically, that faith is a different

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kind of knowledge. So it's not the same as scientifically proving something.

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And so I was, I got more comfortable with the idea of different kinds of knowledge,

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you know, scientific knowledge, and the kinds of knowledge. And, yeah, and so I think that was a

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good, good meeting with Father Bob. And so I see my faith more from a standpoint of,

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if you have heard about Bayes theorem, so in statistics, there's, when you're trying to predict

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a future outcome, there's no 100% certainty. All you can do is you can increase or decrease

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the probability of something happening based on current evidence. And so, with my faith as well,

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I'll be honest, there's no way to 100% know that Catholicism is true. There is just no way.

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And so all you can do is continue seeking out what is out there, what are people talking about,

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what about scripture, what about experience, like how do you sense God's presence in your life?

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Does morality make sense in the Catholic Church? Does morality make sense without the Catholic faith

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or without the Christian faith? And so all these things give me the confidence that, that, that

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God is present and God wants me to follow a certain path. It is not 100%, nothing in life is 100%.

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And so I think why my faith is mostly based on the idea of acquired confidence that increases

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my experience and God is continuously inviting me. So when you talk about a call, you know,

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it's not like God told me that you should do this or else, you know, it's more like a sense of

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God gently inviting me. And for me, I never thought I would be a priest when I was younger.

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It was not something I ever thought about. I got the call, if you may, one fine day when I was

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praying, I was just sitting in this chapel. I wouldn't even call it praying. I would just sit

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there two or three times a week kind of in silence. This is a way to collect myself because

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life is pretty busy when you work in tech. And I just got to start, what would I be happiest doing?

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I just had to start like, what would I be happiest doing? And I was like, I'm going to be a priest.

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And for some reason, the answer came a priest. And I talked to myself about that has not happened

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before. I have never thought of being a priest. But I thought, okay, this would be a good time

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to continue reflecting on that idea because I felt more energized and excited when I talk to people

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about the bigger picture, right? Where are we going after this, after our life here? What is the point

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of our life here? And things like that. What is the meaning of suffering? Things like that. Those

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kinds of conversations gave me more energy and excitement as compared to working in tech. And so

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I felt like through that, and then I talked to some priests and asked them, what gives joy to

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their life? What makes them happy? What makes them excited to get out of bed every morning?

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And so the more conversations I had with people who were in this life, the more I felt like,

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I want to do that. I want to be part of this where I can journey with people as they seek

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something deeper, something more meaningful. Eventually, there was no way again, my life is

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not 100% certainty. It's always going to be the case. There's no way to know if that's what God

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wants me to do. So I figured the only way to do it is to try it out, see how I feel. And so for seven,

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it's been seven years now, I'm still here. And I just feel like this is where God wants me to be.

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There's joy in my life, there's excitement, there's a sense of purpose. And I feel that's how God calls

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us by giving us a sense of purpose and a sense of feeling like this is what it's meant to be. Now God

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will not be unhappy if I leave or try something else. The main thing God wants from me is to

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seek Him. There are many ways to follow God and there might be some other way out there. But for

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me, it seems like this is the place that God wants me to be. So it's more of an invitation, I would say.

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The word call can sometimes have a more like a strong connotation. An invitation respects my

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freedom and my choice.

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Well, I'm really happy to hear that. You know, another perception I have of our Catholic priest is

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the austerity that comes with this vacation. And you don't think about being a Catholic priest as

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something joyous or, you know, that brings a lot of happiness in one's life. You think of someone

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who is very, who has, you know, lots of austerity, lots of, you know, just being very serious. But

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yeah, I'm so glad that we live in a world where this is an option, where you can choose to become

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a Catholic priest to just go beyond, you know, worldly matters and things like that, and find a

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lifestyle that truly, truly suits your needs or your personality in that way. Because thinking

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about it, there are not a lot of jobs resembling Catholic priests. Maybe a philosophy teacher in

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the university, maybe. So becoming vegan is, I said earlier, a bit like becoming a priest, but

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actually it's more like converting to another religion, because you make such radical changes

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in your life that there is no other comparable experience than converting to another religion.

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At least that's my perception. But becoming vegan was a decision closely related to your fate, and

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you actually published some essays related to that on your website. So tell us the story of

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your vegan journey. How did you become vegan? And why did you start advocating veganism?

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Because it's wanting to become vegan, but to take the step further, you know, to create your website

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and start speaking up about veganism, that's something else entirely.

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Yeah, that's the two parts of that question. The first thing about why I became vegan, you know,

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I would say, I think I always had that at the back of my mind. So when I was young, I grew up

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in the village. And so we had chickens and pigs for a while. And every time we slaughtered any of

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them, there was always something in me that would move me and I would try to be out of the house and

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I knew that, but that we're going to be slaughtering a chicken or a pig in our backyard,

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because I didn't want to hear the noise, the squealing, right? There was when I was young.

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And I think as we grow up, we are forced to think about like, okay, that's just how it is.

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You know, that's what we do. That's what we eat. So you would just have to deal with the pain

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somehow, because there's no other option. And I think I grew up to that. And then when I was,

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when I finished college, I was kind of like briefly interested in care for the environment.

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And I think I read an article saying that, you know, that meat and dairy is like the biggest

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contributor to global warming and things like that, or climate change as they call it. And so

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I became vegetarian for a while, right after college for maybe about a year or so,

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because I cared about the environment. Then I moved to the US. It was really hard to be

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vegetarian in the US, or at least I didn't try hard enough. So I forgot about that.

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Then Pope Francis wrote that encyclical, which you mentioned at the beginning, and I thought,

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okay, like I'm Catholic and the Pope says we need to care for creation. I don't seem to be doing

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anything about it. And so I remembered my time of being vegetarian. I was like, okay, I guess I

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could do that again. And so I became a weekday vegetarian. So I would not eat meat at all,

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Monday through Saturday, no need of Sunday. And so I thought, okay, everybody could reduce their

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meat consumption by 90%. We would, you know, really reduce our carbon emissions. I was like,

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okay, that makes sense logically. So all of us should aim to reduce our meat consumption.

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So those were, I think, baby steps. And then one day, I mentioned this in my website, this is like,

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you know, an important part of my journey. I met a student. So I was at St. Louis University

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studying philosophy. You know, I did think a little bit about the problem of evil, like the

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problem of suffering. There's so much suffering in the world. Like, what is God doing about this?

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Like, why is God not putting an end to suffering? So I had that sense of like, okay, I'm going to

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suffer in the world. Where is God? What is God doing about this? And one day when I was

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at the university, a student, he was a Hindu, and from India, or at least of Indian descent.

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So he recognized that I'm from India. So he came and talked to me and said, Okay, like, you know,

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you, you are Catholic, you're going to become a priest. And you say that you are following Jesus

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supposed to be like this really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really

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be like this really role model about peace and compassion and kindness, you know, the gospel,

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Jesus talked about love and care. So how can you as a follower of Jesus participate in something

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that's so cruel, something that's, you know, so unnecessary, and still call yourself a disciple?

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Right. And I thought, you know, wow, that's a good question. And I said, the Catholic Church,

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I've never really heard that eating meat is a sin. It's considered bad, like everybody's meat and

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those who are Catholics. But I gave it some thought. And it really made sense to me that

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like, the idea of being a Christian being a Catholic is about following Jesus. And if I'm

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going to be a disciple of Jesus, then I need to live the way he called us to live, show kindness

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and compassion. And obviously, showing kindness to a human is different from showing kindness to

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a dog or a cow. And it's different from showing kindness to a tree. Because a tree and a dog,

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and human experience love and kindness differently, but they all do experience kindness. And so what

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does it mean to show kindness to all and so that really stood with me. And I was like, you know,

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what, this is an important thing to think about. I'm also physically very healthy.

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And so I thought, okay, I don't want to like spoil my health, you know, maybe meat is needed for

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good functioning of my physical body. And I thought, I don't want to just give up meat and

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then become unhealthy. So I started doing some online research on Mayo Clinic and Cleveland

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Clinic, like reputed websites in the US. And they seem to suggest that it is quite okay to be vegan

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and be healthy, you get all the nutrients that you need. And then I watched the documentary Game

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Changers. And, you know, they talk a lot about how it actually improves one's health. But for me,

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it was less about high performance. I mean, I like being outside, but I'm not a high performance

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athlete. All I wanted to know was whether a vegan diet is neutral, meaning, can I just be healthy?

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I don't have to be a high performance athlete. And it turned out to be the case. Yes, it was. So

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you can be vegan, you can get all the nutrients you need. And that's it. Like, so why am I eating

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meat? Like, I don't need to eat meat. If I eat meat, or dairy or eggs, I'm causing unnecessary

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suffering. And around the same time, I also started reading about the Catholic Church stance on the

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issue. And there were a couple of lines that stood out to me, like two points, specifically,

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besides the idea of following Jesus. One was in the Bible, Genesis, that says, God gave humans

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plants to eat, very clearly said in the creation story that God gave humans plants to eat, not

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plants and animals. Later on, obviously, people started eating meat. But the idea is that God

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initially intended humans to eat plants. That's in the Bible. And the other is, there's a line in the

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Catechism. So besides the Bible, the Catholic Church also has a book called the Catechism,

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which is like a list of teachings on all sorts of topics. And there's a line that talks about

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our relationship with animals that says, it is contrary to human dignity, so it's not good for

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humans to cause animals to die needlessly. So it is not good for humans to cause animals to die

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needlessly. Now the word needless is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Meaning, you can cause

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animals to die if it is needed, obviously. But it is not good if you cause animals to die needlessly.

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Now the question is, is need needed? So in an English sense, the word need is something that

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you cannot do without, like you have to have it. So I'd like to give the example of driving a car.

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So if you want to go from point A to point B, I need a car, say it's really far away, I need a car

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to go from A to B. But do I need a Ferrari? No, I could drive a Toyota. I still need to get from

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point A to point B, but what would be the best way to do it that would be in line with being a

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follower of Jesus? So Toyota would be something that's simple, it uses less money, it uses less

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gas. So do I need a car? Yes. Do I need a Ferrari? No. So I think of it as need as being a Ferrari.

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It is like a luxury. It is not needed. I could still survive and be happy and healthy by eating

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beans. So in that sense, need is needless. That's the way I see it. Need could be needed if you are

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on a desert island and you're dying of hunger and the only thing you can eat is like a deer. Well,

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you have to eat it. But in our culture here, I think need is needless. So anyway, those are the

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two lines about the Catholic faith that I think point towards the idea of care for animals.

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As to why I speak out about it, I think I wrote an essay about when silence is not an option. The

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idea basically is in our culture, we are very used to the idea that, hey, you do what you want,

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don't tell me what to do. It's a very libertarian view of things. I don't subscribe to it, but a

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lot of people say that's how we are supposed to be. But okay, fine, you do you. But the problem

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with you do you is when there is a victim involved, then what happens? So for example,

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if I steal something from somebody else, from Jim on the street, we don't say, okay, Daniel,

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you do you. You want to steal something from Jim, fine. No, we speak on behalf of Jim because Jim

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is a victim of robbery. We think we should care for Jim because Jim might not be able to care for

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himself. Maybe he's old or maybe he's disabled or maybe, I don't know, didn't want to fight.

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So in our society, we do speak on behalf of victims, like all sorts of victims, murder,

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theft, rape, other things. And so animals are voiceless victims. And so we cannot really just

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say you do you, right? Okay, I'm not eating meat, but I cannot just say you do you because

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we always speak up for victims in other cases, like robbery. We don't say, hey, you can go and

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rob whatever you want. I will not rob, but you can do what you want. That's not how it works.

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And so our Catholic faith calls us to speak on behalf of the victim, right? Especially in

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the victim's voices. And so that is my motivation, the idea that God calls us to love and also to

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encourage other people to love. So it's not like I just do my loving, I follow God's commands,

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and hopefully I will get to heaven. I don't care about you. I don't care about you. I don't care

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about you. So my idea of speaking up about veganism, I think that veganism is a good thing.

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Okay, it's a way that is calling me to love more fully, more completely, right? And so if I have

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found something good, I want to tell my friend Mike about this idea that shows me how to love

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more completely. So if Mike is my friend, I would want to tell Mike, hey, Mike, you know, I think

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God is calling us to love all creatures. And I think I want to invite you to consider loving

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all creatures as well. So it comes from a place of love, both for the victim and for the person

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who's committing problem, right? So when it comes to meat, I want to love the animals who are

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voiceless and supprent. So I want to love them and speak on their behalf. And I also want to love

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Mike who's eating meat because I want to tell Mike, I think there's a better way to live here,

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but you can show more kindness. And so it's from a place of love, right? So in the Catholic faith,

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the definition of love is, is to will the good of the other for their sake. Okay, so I must wish

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the good of the other for their own sake. So when I speak about veganism, it's from a place of love.

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I want to love the animal. I want to wish them well, one animal should suffer. And I also want

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to love Mike who's eating meat because I feel Mike is not being fully kind and compassionate.

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And so if, if I think this is a joyful and meaningful life of being vegan, I want my friend

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Mike to also participate in a joyful and meaningful life. Is that making sense?

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Yes, it makes a lot of sense. And I'm so happy that you put it that way, because that's how

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I actually feel. You know, when people ask me about my veganism, I always say it comes from

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a place of love. It's not that I feel pain thinking about animals and what they're going through,

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or I feel guilt or I feel anger. It's truly because I love animals. And I want people around me to

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to share that love for animals. Yeah. And you know, I think it's important to also talk about

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love for people who eat meat because I myself ate meat for many years. But secondly, to see that it

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is not casting judgment on meat eaters. So if I tell my friend Mike about veganism, it's not because

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I want to feel superior or I want to kind of put him down and kind of criticize his life and pass

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and pass some judgment on Mike. But I want to tell Mike like this idea of caring for animals,

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this idea of showing kindness and compassion is a more meaningful life. It is a more joyful life.

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And it is this living more closely to the call of love and passion that Jesus talked about. So if

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Mike is Catholic, I will, I will obviously approach Mike from a Catholic standpoint and say,

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like, Jesus calls us to love and show compassion. So, like, what does it mean to show love and

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compassion to a cow or a dog? And so if you think this will be a better way to live according to

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what Jesus is inviting us to do. So it's important to also talk about love for people who eat meat.

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Because I think a lot of times vegans can be seen as judgmental, you know, and like trying to like

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prove you wrong. But no, I think if we approach it from a space from the standpoint of love that

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Mike, like, I love you, I care about you. And so here is something I think of more meaningful

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and joyful way to live. That would be a very different approach from trying to prove that Mike

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is wrong. Well, that's a difficult one. And I certainly had to work on it because, you know,

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when I first became vegan, I had so much anger for people around me and for meat eaters. And,

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you know, I almost became that vegan who, you know, will not sit at the table where there is

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meat served or something like that, who, you know, I'm, I don't want to put judgment on vegans who

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take that stance, because it might be a good way to advocate for veganism, you know, showing,

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showing how veganism is important for you, to your to the people around you by, you know,

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taking the radical position of not sitting at the same table as they are. So maybe this is like,

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you can see it as a advocating technique, strategy. But if I'm thinking about the feelings,

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you know, I had that anger. And I often talk about it in my in those in this podcast,

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about the upset and the anger that many vegans feel toward other meat eaters, how they are

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frustrated with the situation, how they don't feel understood, how there's this horrible thing

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happening out there, and nobody seemed to pay attention to it. And the pent up feelings that

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you have thinking about it. So yeah, I really had personally had to work on it, just for the sake

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of my mental health. And that's what I say to vegans, you know, you don't have to forgive the

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the meat eaters or the people participating in the exploitation of animals, or not even love them,

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maybe you're not at that, you know, level. But at least don't feel upset about it, because it's

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going to eat away your mental health. Would you agree with that? Yeah, you know, we all have our

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journeys on how to come to terms with when the rest of the world doesn't seem to care. I'm

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actually working on an essay about the idea of living in hope. So for a Catholic, hope is a very

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important virtue. So for us, hope is the idea that God has good things planned for us in the future.

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And we know that God will give it to us. So I think that there are good things in the future,

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that God will, will bring peace on earth. You know, yeah, it is, it is, we all have different

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ways of dealing with it. One thing when I get upset, I, so I live with all non-vegans. So I

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have to see meat every day, my house and dinner, like, and it's hard. So first, I pray, I always

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pray. So I pray to that God gives me the strength to, to, to persevere, to continue with this cause,

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but also to just be kind and compassionate to the people around. I pray for the animals who had to

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die for this. And I pray that God, you know, bless them wherever they are after their death.

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And I think there's also a prayer in me that says that even if I don't see the results of my activism,

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it doesn't matter. Right. We are called to do good things. God invites us to do good things,

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even if nobody else is doing anything good. Right. So I doing good does not depend on how many people

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are doing, but I'm invited by God to do good. So I am trying my best to do good. I trust that God,

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the future sometime will bring peace on earth. So in our Catholic tradition, we believe that there

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will, like Jesus will come again. There will be the last judgment. And, you know, in the end, God will

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bring justice and mercy for all. So there's a sense that this is beyond my control. Right.

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Even if I'm the most famous vegan speaker out there, it is not going to change everybody. Like,

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that's just a given. I'm going to die long before people become vegan. That is just true. Like,

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not to compare myself, you know, with any great social justice advocates out there, but, you know,

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Martin Luther King comes to mind. Like, he knew he would be long dead before there's justice,

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racial justice. Jesus also died well before, you know, everything else that was supposed to happen,

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happened. So there's a real sense that I'm not in charge. God is in charge. Right. So I say my

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prayers. I pray that God gives me the strength. I pray for the animals. I pray for my friends

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and my Jesuit brothers that their hearts will be converted. And I just remind myself that God is

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in charge. Like, I'm not in charge. God is inviting me to do what I can. I also have a section on my

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website for prayers, especially for prayers that are asking us to, like, let go and let God be in

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charge and do what we can. There's a real sense of freedom and confidence that I will not see the

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results. I will not change the world. That's okay. I do what I can. I continue to ask God, okay, God,

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what do you want from me? I will try my best. If the world doesn't change, that is God's responsibility.

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God has a plan. For me, that is a constant prayer, right? That let me let go. I have not converted a

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single person in my life to veganism. Okay. Nobody has become vegan because of my, like, let me just

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put it out there, but that's okay. You know, it doesn't mean I should stop talking about it or

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stop being vegan. It's fine. Even if no one changes, that's okay. This is what God invites me to do.

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I'm doing my best. God is in charge. I hope that's helpful. First of all, you don't know. I mean,

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maybe you have influenced someone and that person just did not reach out. You know, that happened to

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me. You know, someone close to me who one day reached out and said, I'm vegan. And part of the

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reason why is because of you. You know, you have been a good example and you made me discover that

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whole world. And I was like, why didn't you say anything earlier? I mean, that would have been

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great for my self-esteem if I had known, uh, maybe two years earlier, but, um, yeah. And also,

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I, I am realizing how important religion is, um, in, you know, maintaining, um, a sort of

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mental health in our modern modern society. We tend to, you know, put religion aside, but

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truly when you think about the great, um, people behind social justice movements, like Martin

372
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:13,840
Luther King, like Nelson Mandela, uh, and others, faith had played a big role in, uh, their activism.

373
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:25,280
Um, and I think had participated in preventing that, um, activism fatigue that many of us have.

374
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:33,360
Um, but in their case, it was about, you know, racial justice, uh, and other cause, but yeah,

375
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:41,440
I think that spirituality can, can be helpful for, for some vegans out there, um, in, you know,

376
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:47,040
maintaining, um, their, their beliefs, maintaining their, their mental health.

377
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:53,440
Yeah. You know, I don't want to speak on behalf of, of vegans who are not spiritual or not religious.

378
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:59,440
So we all have to figure out what will give us, because I tend to see, or at least in my

379
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:07,200
conversations with vegans in person, but also online, there's a lot of emphasis on, on the

380
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:13,200
effect that they are having. So as I said, nobody has converted because of me. I'm fine with that,

381
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,960
because my idea of being vegan is that I can serve God, I can get closer to God.

382
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:26,400
That is independent of what happens around me. So if one does not have that sense of,

383
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:33,040
of a higher purpose, then the purpose has to come from around you. So if it is not from there,

384
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:39,040
it has to come from around, right? And so if around you, you are seeing no effect at all,

385
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:44,400
people are just eating meat all the time, you are surrounded by me. No one seems to care about your

386
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:49,040
veganism. No one wants to talk to you about veganism, or no one wants to talk to you because you

387
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:56,480
are vegan now. Now you've suddenly, your purpose that is coming from around you seems hopeless.

388
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:03,280
My purpose comes from God. So that sense that, okay, like no matter what is happening around me,

389
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:09,600
I'm invited to follow God and try my best to invite other people. You know, and there's a real

390
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:16,720
sense that even if there are no results, that's fine. I have lived the best way I can, the way God

391
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:22,720
invited me. And God is in charge. So there's a real sense of letting go, right? And so I think,

392
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:28,880
for me, spirituality is an important factor. And the other place where I think spirituality

393
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:35,600
has been important for me in the whole conversation about veganism, I've actually had this

394
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:41,840
conversation with people where they say, how do you know, like, why is killing animals bad?

395
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:50,880
And if there's no, like, transcendent element to this, there is no right answer to this.

396
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:58,640
There is no right and wrong. So those who are radical materialists, all that is, is atoms and

397
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:03,280
molecules. I'm made of atoms and molecules. The tree is made of atoms and molecules. The dog is

398
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:09,200
made of atoms and molecules. There is no morality. There's no right and wrong. Like, why is it wrong

399
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:15,200
to kill a dog? If I want to eat a dog, I should eat a dog. The only reason I will not kill a dog

400
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:21,280
is because I might be sent to jail. Because that is, at least in the US, you cannot kill dogs.

401
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:29,440
So then morality becomes dependent only on the law. And so it is impossible to have a conversation

402
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:36,400
with somebody who just does not care, who does not believe there's a right or wrong. There is no

403
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:44,480
sense of heaven or judgment. I'll just do whatever I want, as long as I don't get arrested. That is

404
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,840
a very common morality in the US. I will do whatever I want, as long as I don't get arrested.

405
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:57,840
Well, there's no way to have that conversation. So I always approach veganism from a standpoint of

406
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:03,680
following Jesus. So I can only talk to Christians. Like, it's really hard for me to talk to someone

407
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:11,280
who doesn't have a wider view of the world. Because if a person doesn't care, there's nothing I can

408
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:18,720
say. But if a person says he's a Christian, then I can ask him, okay, you are a Christian, you claim

409
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:25,760
to follow Jesus. What do you think about Jesus' command to love others? Does the others involve

410
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:35,200
animals? Would you kill a dog or a cow just for the sake of it? If Jesus is standing, imagine Jesus

411
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:42,640
standing next to you. Would you kill a cow or a dog or a pig just for fun? Imagine you've had a

412
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:49,760
nice meal of chickpeas and curry, and you are fully satisfied. You're not hungry or starving,

413
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:56,560
and you are hanging out with Jesus. And you see a pig walking by, would you just take a knife and

414
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:02,560
slaughter the pig? What would Jesus think about that? So I use Jesus as a starting point, because

415
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:08,880
when I talk to Christians, I know I have something in common. If I talk to people who are not

416
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,520
religious, it's really hard to find a starting point. Now, if they say that they are compassionate

417
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,520
and kind people, okay, that's a starting point. But I've had people who say they don't care.

418
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:23,040
If they say they don't care, I don't know what else to say. There's nothing I can say that's

419
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:28,080
going to change their mind. So it's easier for me, there's some spirituality involved.

420
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:33,360
You know, I would say first of all, to those people who are not religious, because I myself,

421
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:40,320
I'm not someone who's particularly religious, but it brings a lot, a great deal of happiness and peace

422
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:53,120
to follow some moral rules in your own life to know that your presence, your existence is not

423
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:59,200
your existence is not causing harm to other beings, that you're actually making a good

424
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:06,640
difference, a positive difference in this world. I don't know in in my case, that's where I found

425
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:17,120
a great deal of meaning in terms of what I'm doing my actions. Yeah, I mean, that experience you were

426
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:27,280
talking about about people basing their whole moral view of the world on rules, and the legality of it,

427
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:37,840
I actually encountered that with that same scenario with religious people arguing with me how,

428
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:44,000
you know, it's not in my religion. So why should I care? You know, God does not require that from me.

429
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:54,640
So no, I will not give up meat, I will not give up dairy. And that's why I'm so happy to find people

430
00:47:54,640 --> 00:48:03,200
like you who, in my book, are more consistent, you know, for me, someone who defends the environment

431
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:11,680
should be vegan. If you care about the environment, and you're not vegan, then I'm sorry, but I won't

432
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:20,080
listen to you. This is not this not making sense. Just as someone who claims to be religious claims

433
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:27,120
to follow a higher purpose, but is not vegan. What are you doing? What about you know, the mass

434
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:34,640
slaughter of billions of sentient beings, and you're just passing by that, that fact that horrible

435
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:44,960
evil, and saying that you're still, you know, a good religious person, you know, doesn't make much

436
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:53,520
sense to me. You should at least show some sympathy to that cause, if you're not ready to become vegan.

437
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:59,760
Yeah, you're right. There are many religious people who follow like a rules based idea of faith.

438
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:05,520
You know, I would invite them. So the way I see the Catholic faith, and I think the Catholic

439
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:12,080
Church is talking more about this idea of moving from a rules based approach to what we call a

440
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:19,680
discipleship approach. So the faith over time became more about following a bunch of rules,

441
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:25,520
doing certain things, and then hoping to go to heaven, right. And but now we talk more about

442
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:32,720
discipleship, like our whole lives now, and in heaven, is about being a disciple of Jesus Christ.

443
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:40,240
So everything needs to be viewed through that lens, right. So the way I talk to people,

444
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:47,600
what I do with my free time, whether I go to church, you know, the way I treat those who are,

445
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:55,200
you know, poor, all that is about discipleship, not about rules based. And so I think I would

446
00:49:55,200 --> 00:50:02,800
encourage religious people to view Christianity, I speak of Christianity here, to view Christianity

447
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:09,600
as a discipleship, a sense of every little thing brings me closer to Jesus or takes me away from

448
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:15,280
Jesus. And I need to examine my life through that lens, not whether I'm checking a bunch of things

449
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:24,560
off the checklist, but whether something I do and care about is it bringing me closer to Jesus.

450
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:31,280
I think that would be a healthy way of looking at our faith. And the care for the environment

451
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:36,800
thing, you know, I have a way from when we talk about care for the environment, care for creation

452
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:44,000
for two reasons. One is the word environment, or in Christian terms, we say creation,

453
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:52,160
is this amorphous, faceless entity, this whole universe around me. There's no sense of

454
00:50:52,160 --> 00:51:00,400
relationship with that. It's just too big. The universe is so large. What can I, as a small

455
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:07,120
person in this huge universe do to care for the universe, for the environment? It's just so big.

456
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:15,440
It's so out there. It's faceless. There's no relationship. We should talk about creatures,

457
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:21,360
each individual creature. How do I care for a tree? How do I care for a dog? How do I care for a dog?

458
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:29,040
Those are individual creatures. That makes a relationship possible. The other reason I don't

459
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:35,600
talk about care for environment as much anymore is because it becomes a sense of I care about the

460
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:41,040
environment because if I don't, I will be suffering. So when we talk about climate change,

461
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:47,840
oh, I want to care for the environment only because I don't want to suffer, or we humans

462
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:53,120
don't want to suffer. So it becomes a very transactional care and concern. It's no longer

463
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:59,600
about care because for its own sake, it's care because I am worried what will happen if I don't

464
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:07,200
care. And so I think of it more as I have received a gift from God. All of the world around me is a

465
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:16,640
gift from God. How do I treat that gift with respect? So that is my concern about care for

466
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:22,800
the environment. It becomes very transactional versus the idea of receiving it as a gift and

467
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:29,760
respecting it. So those are my two points about what you said. But I hope everybody is caring in some way

468
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:34,640
or the other. I just feel like we could look at care for the environment slightly differently

469
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:41,360
because I think it will help us have a better relationship with the world around us.

470
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:50,400
I'm so glad to hear you say that because I always had the belief that the environment argument

471
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:59,040
is not strong enough to convince someone to make such radical changes in their lives and become vegan.

472
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:11,840
And even if it is, are they going to stay vegan for the following months, years? No. The best

473
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:19,360
way to stay vegan, I think, is to think about the ethical side of things and the creatures that you

474
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:30,560
are impacting. So let me ask you something I'm dying to ask you actually. I'm glad, like I said

475
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:37,120
before, that religious leaders like yourself are concerned with animal welfare and advocating for

476
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:44,320
a vegan lifestyle. However, my criticism has always been that veganism is presented as a good

477
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:52,720
addition to your spiritual, religious practice. It's a plus, but it's certainly not a requirement.

478
00:53:53,360 --> 00:54:01,520
A practice that I would compare to that is meditation. It's a plus in your religious practice,

479
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:10,880
but it's not a requirement. Or pilgrimage. You can make a pilgrimage, but it's not a requirement.

480
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:22,400
So, you know, my question is, would you consider talking about vegan lifestyle as not just a plus

481
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:33,440
in a spiritual practice, but really as a requirement, something that is the will of God,

482
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:43,200
actually, and that if you're not vegan, that would be considered as being sinful. You know, eating meat

483
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:54,800
should be considered sinful. So is this too radical or did you ever consider that question

484
00:54:55,440 --> 00:55:02,400
in those terms? Yeah, that is a rather deep and complicated question. I will not make any

485
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:09,280
pronouncements on whether it should be a requirement or church teaching. Again, I will go back to the

486
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:16,000
idea of discipleship or the idea of relationship, since that might be a more common word out there.

487
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:23,200
Relationship. So if you love your mom, okay, so every interaction with your mom

488
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:30,800
is something that strengthens or weakens the relationship. So I wouldn't rule something out

489
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,960
completely. Yeah, you could hurt your mom, but she might still have a relationship with you. But if

490
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:40,160
you keep hurting her all the time, well, that's not good. So if you really care about your mom,

491
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:46,800
and you love your mom, you might start doing things that will strengthen that relationship, right?

492
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:55,440
So that's always a good way to think about what is sin. So again, moving away from the rules-based

493
00:55:55,440 --> 00:56:04,800
approach, the idea of sin now is since the past 60, 70 years, is talked more about as turning away

494
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:15,040
from God. So it's not like I did this, therefore it's a sin. It's more like, is my life towards God,

495
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:20,800
or is it away from God? Are my actions and my thoughts moving me towards God or away from God?

496
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:29,760
So any thoughts, words, or actions that move me away from God is a sin. And so if we knowingly

497
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:37,920
participate in cruelty, I think it is turning away from God, because we believe God is love.

498
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:47,040
And so cruelty is not associated with love. And so that idea of participating in cruelty, knowingly

499
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:56,160
and willingly, is turning away from God. So I don't like to use the word requirement. Again,

500
00:56:56,160 --> 00:57:02,080
I think I have a strong sense of freedom and free will and things like that. I think if we start

501
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:10,160
viewing things as loving God and moving towards God, we will examine all aspects of our lives,

502
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:15,760
not just what we eat, but the way we talk to people, what do we spend money on? We care for

503
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:21,920
the people. What do I read? What kind of media I consume? Again, this is not because I'm

504
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:28,400
scared of going to hell or I'm in a straight jacket, I'm always walking with a serious face,

505
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:35,600
but the sense is I want to be with God. And so I examine all aspects of my life through that lens,

506
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:43,920
including what I eat. So I wouldn't call it rules or sin or requirement, but more of a sense of

507
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:50,240
really wanting to be a follower of Jesus and then examining all aspects of my life.

508
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:56,080
So I cannot be vegan and then just be really hateful to the people who eat meat around.

509
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:02,240
That's not helpful. Now, it's good to be vegan, but now that I'm being hateful to the guys around

510
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:08,400
me, well, that's not helpful. But all aspects of my life, how am I responding to all situations

511
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:15,920
in the most loving manner? And that is kind of the approach I'm trying to advocate through my

512
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:23,840
advocacy on my website is that we need to view our life as a relationship with God, with people,

513
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:31,520
with animals. And all of those relationships have to have a positive sense to it. You have to have

514
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:39,680
a sense of kindness, compassion, care. And I think I would encourage the church, who I was listening

515
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:48,480
from the church, to start seeing our faith as a relationship with Jesus, not as a set of rules,

516
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:55,680
and whether we're going to go to hell or whether we commit a sin. Is that a helpful answer? I'm

517
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,320
not trying to evade your question, but I think that's the way I see it.

518
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:03,200
No, I think I understand it because like you said earlier, you're trying to avoid

519
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:11,920
judging other people. And I guess it's part of that. Then let me ask you, if the church

520
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:22,000
publishes like a decree or something saying, okay, now eating meat is considered sinful,

521
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:27,920
would you agree with that decree? Would you follow that position?

522
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:34,480
Yes, that would be easy for me. I would agree with it. Again, so the definition of sin,

523
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:43,200
right? Again, is any action that turns you away from God, that's a sin. So the church says

524
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:50,400
eating meat turns you away from God. I would agree. Right? So I think that's the way I would

525
00:59:50,400 --> 01:00:01,840
agree. Right? I think causing suffering in animals, knowingly, willingly, is moving ourselves away

526
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:08,480
from love. God is love. So by causing suffering and pain, we are not being loving. So I would agree

527
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:15,360
with that. Whenever you see the word sin, church teaching, I would encourage you and other listeners

528
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:24,080
to just have that definition of sin. If the church says something is sin, just think of it as

529
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:29,600
turning away from God. And I would agree if the church comes up with a compliment that says

530
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:42,320
something like that. And another question I am dying to ask you is about evil. I tend to use

531
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:50,640
the word evil to describe the animal industry and animal exploitation. And I cannot find another

532
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:59,040
word actually to describe that because it's such a hurtful industry, not just for the animals,

533
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:08,880
but also for the workers, for the environment. It's like every way you look at it, this industry

534
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:18,480
is doing something wrong or is hurting someone somewhere. So I want to know, am I using this

535
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:30,240
word correctly? Can I have your theological approval of the use of this word? Or does evil

536
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:39,600
have another meaning here that escapes me? And do you agree with that assessment that this industry

537
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:48,160
is actually evil? Yeah, the word evil is rather a strong word. I don't have a clear grasp of

538
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:54,880
what is the context in the Catholic faith. The best definition I've heard of evil,

539
01:01:54,880 --> 01:02:04,160
a shorthand, is the absence of God. So God in the Catholic tradition is all good. God is perfect.

540
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:12,320
So God is complete goodness, truth, and beauty. So an absence of God, so an absence of truth,

541
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:22,000
an absence of goodness, an absence of beauty is evil. In the animal industry, especially the

542
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:30,400
factory farming industry, I think that's an absence of goodness. Sentient creatures, creatures who can

543
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:37,600
be pain and suffering are put in such horrible conditions for their whole life. That is an

544
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:47,280
absence of goodness. So that's evil. And I would kind of use that lens of seeing the animal industry

545
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:52,800
as it is an absence of goodness. And so an absence of goodness would mean an absence of God.

546
01:02:54,240 --> 01:03:02,080
And so it could be seen as evil. But the word evil can be kind of a strong word,

547
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:08,480
mainly because we tend to look at evil from a human suffering standpoint. A lot of people

548
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:17,040
don't want to equate humans and animals. So that is where I see there might be some concern about

549
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:25,120
using the word evil in a non-human context. If we're thinking about that evil, how is it

550
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:35,280
possible to still believe in a benevolent God who is there looking at this and not intervening?

551
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:42,320
Because I feel like at least in my personal experience, what makes me the most skeptical

552
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:53,840
about the existence of God is looking at pictures of factory farming. It just makes me doubt that

553
01:03:53,840 --> 01:04:01,680
there is any force of goodness, mighty force of goodness out there. But I feel like this is the

554
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:09,040
opposite for you. You talked in the beginning of this interview about that drowning episode

555
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:19,680
that truly marked you during your college years. And that made you closer to God and to your faith,

556
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:29,840
which in my case, that would have made me take my distance from faith and God. So I'm just wondering,

557
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:40,480
how do you conceptualize that whole situation? How do you make sense of that great evil

558
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:48,880
existing despite the existence of God? Yeah, before I answer the question,

559
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:56,000
I just want to clarify or make a comment about, I personally don't like to compare animal suffering

560
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:02,880
with human suffering. It just causes too many problems in the conversation. It diverts our

561
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:07,440
attention and people will immediately say, oh, you're comparing animals with humans. So I would

562
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:15,040
probably not compare those two. But the wider question about the existence of a loving God

563
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:24,160
and the existence of evil. One is, I cannot, this is an emotional response to this. I cannot

564
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:32,800
imagine suffering just being random. This seems so pointless. So a homeless person on the street

565
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:41,280
or someone who lost his legs in a car crash, that just being completely random and not having any

566
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:50,240
meaning just seems completely unfair. That I am living a comfortable life. I'm healthy. I have

567
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:57,600
friends. I'm happy. While somebody else is suffering and it having no meaning or no purpose

568
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:04,880
just seems so unfair. So that was, I think, my initial point. And you remember what I mentioned

569
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:10,720
about my college years. So that was kind of what I was thinking about. But then from a positive sense,

570
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:15,360
how do I explain it? I don't want to give any philosophical explanation in case someone is

571
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:22,080
actually suffering, either physically or emotionally. And I'm giving some easy answers.

572
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:28,960
All I will say is, I try to be humble and tell myself, I don't know the big picture.

573
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:35,760
Right. I have one certain example about like, think about like reading the Lord of the Rings.

574
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:41,440
You read the whole book and you kind of know what's happening and they finally finish the quest and

575
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:47,360
you know, goodness and kindness eventually wins, that evil is destroyed. Yay, everybody's happy.

576
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:53,200
But there's a long quest, right? But imagine if the Lord of the Rings trilogy, the three books

577
01:06:54,880 --> 01:07:00,720
are like torn up, all the pages are scattered. And you just pick some random page somewhere and

578
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:08,000
that page is talking about the depths of evil, right? Of Sauron and all that. And you're like,

579
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:13,600
wow, this is such a horrible book. Like, wow, this book is just completely about evil and pain.

580
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:22,640
But no, you have not seen the whole book, right? And so, I remind myself that I don't know the

581
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:28,320
whole book. God is the only one who knows the whole book. And I have to trust that God,

582
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:36,640
who created me, has a point, has a purpose. Otherwise, God is a trickster. God must be laughing

583
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:46,800
at me right now. But I think a God who is so powerful and so mighty, doesn't need means

584
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:52,560
so that he can make jokes. Like, you know, it doesn't make sense to me that an all-powerful God

585
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:59,360
makes humans just so that he can laugh at you. So, I think God has a purpose, has a plan.

586
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:08,800
And so, that trust, when I see one page of a 2,000-page book, I have to somehow trust that

587
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:16,400
the other pages have meaning and purpose. And in the end, good will win, right? That God will use

588
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:24,400
the suffering that is around us for some good. And animals who are suffering, I hope God will

589
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:29,280
somehow redeem their suffering. Maybe animals have a faith life, you know, maybe animals,

590
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:37,120
like God relates to animals in a way that animals are capable of. Now, I can say a prayer,

591
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:45,440
because that is my human capacity, but a cow might be able to relate to God in a way that is

592
01:08:45,440 --> 01:08:53,280
acceptable to the level of the cow, right? So, if God created me, God gave me a way to relate to God,

593
01:08:54,000 --> 01:09:02,000
it's a gift from God. So, if God made a cow, I trust that God has given the cow a way to relate

594
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:07,600
to God. And so, when a cow is in a factory farm, I just pray that God somehow relates to the cow

595
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:17,040
and consoles the cow. And when the cow dies, I hope God will somehow redeem the suffering,

596
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:24,480
right? Because God doesn't need our suffering. God is not a masochist, you know, God doesn't make,

597
01:09:24,480 --> 01:09:32,400
God is not happy by seeing us suffer, right? Because God is all-powerful. God doesn't need us

598
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:38,480
to make him happy. And so, that is my way of seeing evil, right? To really trust that God

599
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:45,760
wants good things for all of us, animals, plants, myself, you know, and that when we have evil,

600
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:53,920
we have to somehow trust that the big picture God is in charge of, right? And so, God is

601
01:09:53,920 --> 01:10:00,480
God is in charge. God is writing this book that has an ending where we will all be with God

602
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:08,080
and filled with love, joy, and peace in the end. This is not the end. So, there's a saying,

603
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:14,000
all will be well in the end. If it's not well, it's not the end. And so, we truly believe that

604
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:20,880
in the end, all will be well in heaven. Right now, it's obviously not well. And I have to trust it

605
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:28,240
is not the end right now. And I think this will be a challenge in your vegan advocacy. Hopefully,

606
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:33,760
in the future, you will have a congregation. I think that's the right term. And when you're

607
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:40,080
going to talk about veganism, I think people will ask you about that because there are so many

608
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:47,520
people out there who just don't want to confront the reality of animal exploitation because

609
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:58,560
it's too much, it's too evil, too hurtful. Just accepting that reality would mean to challenge

610
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:08,160
your beliefs. And I think many believers, including Catholics out there, need to find an answer to

611
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:20,080
that because vegans in general are vocal about it. So, you will be confronted with that reality.

612
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:29,040
At some point, you will see anonymous for the voiceless doing, I think they call that a cube

613
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:37,200
of truth in the streets, showing footage of what is happening inside slaughterhouses. So, at some

614
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:43,040
point, you will be confronted with that and you will have to make a decision. Are you going to

615
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:48,480
become vegan? How are you going to make sense of what is happening? And so on.

616
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:55,760
Yeah. I mean, I obviously am confronted all the time with people around me or people asking

617
01:11:55,760 --> 01:12:02,720
questions. And my philosophy is to continue asking questions and to continue my thought process.

618
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:11,360
I think someone once said, when you are presented with new information, what do you do? I changed

619
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:15,760
my mind. What do you do? So, maybe there might be some other argument out there that I have not

620
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:22,640
considered. An argument for eating meat that I have not yet heard. I have not heard anything good so

621
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:27,520
far, but I'm open that there might be some argument out there that I've not thought about. So, I

622
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:35,200
continue just being open to conversation, to being open to challenge and not to fall into the sunk

623
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:41,040
cost fallacy. The idea that because I have spoken so much about veganism and all that,

624
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:46,720
I have to hold on to it despite all the evidence. I want to be open that if there's a really good

625
01:12:46,720 --> 01:12:51,600
argument out there, I would love to hear it and really consider it from a philosophical

626
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:59,920
standpoint and also from a faith standpoint. It's a challenge, people. I'm also very doubtful

627
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:08,640
about that. I see what anti-vegans just, how they comment on my posts and the messages they send me.

628
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:19,280
It's mostly trying to attack your person or just making jokes out of what you're saying.

629
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:28,960
It's never a good argument or good, it's quoting a weird study about how I would lose my limbs

630
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:33,360
because of my diet or something like that. So, it's always something strange.

631
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:38,560
My final question for you would be, did you have something to add?

632
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:47,280
My main invitation is this love for all of God's creatures. Ask yourself what is

633
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:53,440
the most important thing in your life? What do you want your life's story to be when people talk

634
01:13:53,440 --> 01:13:58,000
about you in the present or in the future? What would you want them to say about you?

635
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:05,520
If kindness and compassion is to be a part of your story, I would invite you to consider

636
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:12,960
kindness and compassion to all the creatures out there, plants, animals, humans. To really

637
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:17,680
see, to really make your story one that is worth celebrating.

638
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:25,200
Amazing. I love that. Those are great final words. So, thank you so much, Daniel, for your time,

639
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:33,200
for having accepted to be a guest on the podcast. Thank you so much for the great work you are doing

640
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:41,440
and for representing, because I'm sure there are plenty of vegan Catholics out there who see you

641
01:14:41,440 --> 01:14:47,680
and see what you're doing and thinking, yes, great, some good representation, someone who

642
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:54,960
expresses our feelings out loud and who is part of the Catholic Church leadership.

643
01:14:55,520 --> 01:14:57,280
So, thank you so much, Daniel.

644
01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:00,240
You're welcome. Thank you for your work as well, Ryan.

645
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:07,520
Thank you, everyone, for listening. I really enjoyed this conversation. Daniel is very smart,

646
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:15,120
thoughtful and insightful. The Catholic clergy is lucky to have him. And I'm happy to know he is

647
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:22,880
vegan. Please visit vegancatholic.org to support his work. If you know people who are Catholic,

648
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:29,280
share with them the link to his website or, of course, to this episode. And finally,

649
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:35,200
let me know if you liked this conversation. Leave me a good review or reach out to me on

650
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:42,240
Instagram at veganreportpodcast. Thank you again for listening. Take care and see you next Tuesday

651
01:15:42,240 --> 01:16:09,040
for a new episode.