Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.
If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure
where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with
passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special
contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Today we are going
to talk about strategies to convert people to veganism and the health criticism for being vegan.
To tackle all of these topics and more, you will hear me talk with Chris. Chris is one of the vegans
I have interviewed for the veteran vegan series of this podcast, where I ask long-time vegans
some burning, challenging and important questions. Chris is a teacher who became vegan for health
reasons more than 14 years ago. I truly, truly enjoyed talking with him. If you want to know
more about him, you will find his Instagram handle in the description below.
Hello. Welcome Chris. Thank you very much for being here.
Thanks for having me. Let's start with an introduction.
Could you please introduce yourself? Sure. My name is Chris. I'm a 53-year-old guy. I teach
and live in Central Connecticut in the USA. Yes. I posted an ad on the subreddit vegan
and you decided to answer that ad and participate in a conversation about veganism.
So just out of curiosity, why did you want to share your experience of being vegan with the world?
Well, I mean, I feel for me it's been a positive experience. If I can go into a little backstory
for you at this point, about 2009, February, I was in a car accident. Nothing critical,
but enough that I had to go to physical therapy and go through things. Years before that point,
my doctor was always like, your cholesterol is too high, lower your cholesterol. And on my way to
physical therapy one night, I heard an interview on NPR with a guy named Rip Esselstyn, who was
behind the engine two diet, which is plant-based, not vegan. And he was a firefighter and triathlete
and eats plants. And I was like, you know, I can try that for a month. I mean, how hard can that be?
And so I did it for a month and I felt really good. And I went two months more and my cholesterol
dropped 60 points. I dropped about 30 pounds, about four inches of my waist. And I was like,
okay, this is going to be it. And so April 5th, 2009, I had chicken. And April 6th, 2009, I didn't.
And since that date, I've had nothing but animal. I also read Animal Liberation, some other books
since that time shortly after that. And then I didn't buy any more animal products for clothing,
for shoes, for other kinds of stuff. And so I have phased those things out. And I don't serve animal
products in my house. I don't eat them out places. I bring vegan food to places and encourage people
that way. I find the people who are kind of in your face, you know, dominion kind of stuff. It's a
little like, but I find that if you show up somebody and you go, look at, here's cookies, and they will
eat them and they go, and they're vegan. And they're like, oh, this is vegan. So yes, you can have
some yummy food. And so you can take care of animals and the planet and do these things without
it being like twigs and grass clippings. So that's my answer.
I love that. I try to do that in my workplace. I mean, my secret way of bringing the vegan agenda
to the workplace. So would you say that you became vegan first for health reasons and then
became vegan for ethical reasons?
Yeah, it definitely for me, it started off as a health thing. And I think when I, because all I
changed was what went in. You know, I didn't start working out at the same time. I didn't take extra
vitamins or else. My life didn't change at all. I said, in the fact that I stopped eating animals
and animal products. And within said a month, I felt better. And within three months, I lost weight.
I felt great. My cholesterol was down. My doctor was like, what'd you do? I said, I stopped eating
animals. He goes, keep doing it. And that way was it. And then he was trying to get me to not go on
a statin. His big thing was concerned for my not being on a statin. And at the age I was at that
point, which is that point I was in my late thirties. And so, yeah, I mean, I think for me,
it was that kind of thing. I will say my place of business or where I work had a chili cookoff a
couple of years ago. And I won one of the awards in like big pot of vegan chili. And one day we had
a whole big like bring in a pot of soup. I brought in a big lentil soup mix and it was gone. And the
other soups weren't gone. Mine was gone. And so I'm like, okay, you can make a tasty dish. It doesn't
require animal products in it. And people loved it. And so. Well, yeah, I mean, there's this
preconception that once you go vegan, it's over. You won't like food anymore. You will have to
to take that, you know, to eat that tofu, the bland tofu that is not raw. And it's not the case.
Most vegans, you know, I talk with always say once I became vegan, I introduced a diversity of food
in my diet. And I always say, you know, my plate became more colorful from being vegan.
I agree. I also think that there are some vegans I know. I mean, sure, Oreos are vegan. And, you
know, you can't live on those. I've tried occasionally, but you can't. But, you know,
there are things out there that are junk food that you can still eat as a vegan, but definitely
you eat more things. Also, I mean, I've tried Ethiopian food and I've tried other stuff. And
we have a cookbook called the Korean vegan, which is fantastic. It's got some great flavors and
things to it. And it's really broadened our viewpoint on food. And we try different flavors
and different profiles. I mean, my children grew up eating because I mean, basically I was cooking
vegan food in the house. And so my older kids who are now in their early 20s and late teens,
they grew up eating a diverse flavor of things because that's what dad put in front of them,
you know, and it wasn't a case of like, oh, you don't want this. You can go have a Big Mac. No,
this is dinner. So you're going to, you know, dinner is right here in front of you. And they
learn to eat a broad range of things and flavors. And even tonight, I have a small child right now.
We made a potato scallop dish tonight, which is with the yogurt, soy based yogurt, I think.
And then some potatoes and one of the meat replacement sausages and a scallop kind of
dish, like an og rot and everything. And the little one loved it too. It's just, it's what it is.
It's just yummy food.
Yes. I mean, it forces you to learn how to cook. So yes, that's very true. Yeah. Stop
taking, like you said, the Big Mac. And also it forces you to open yourself to new flavors,
to new ingredients, to go look for new recipes. But I am of the opinion that if we want to advocate
for veganism, we should take the route of talking about veganism as an ethical, from the, from an
ethical standpoint, instead of talking about the health or even the environment, because I feel
like that to sustain being vegan. And I know right now, you know, we feel that it's easy and
it's second nature, but it is a drastic change. And people find it scary to change so much of
their diet and of their lifestyle sometimes. So do you share that opinion that we should advocate
mainly from an ethical standpoint, you know, concentrate on the ethical arguments and get away
from the health part or even the environment part or the other benefits of veganism?
Well, so it's interesting. I certainly subscribe to the fact that we need to be aware of it and
need to present it, but I think most people you run into, if you say you're a vegan, they're like,
ah, okay, they're already kind of hands up. They don't want to talk to you. And then if you're
like animals, animals, animals, they tune you out. And, and this would be like, if you're from any
political party, the other political party these days, doesn't want to hear you, right? You say
you're the other party, but you're the other party. And then you're like, oh, okay, I'm
the other party. They don't want to hear you. So I found that by using food or that kind of health
benefits, it allows me to start a conversation that can over time work that way. But if you start,
at least in my experience, if you start with, you know, chickens are grinders and cows and
they just don't care. I mean, they like their veal and they don't really care that the baby cows are
stuck in a little small space for, you know, they can't lay down and they just don't care.
So I, so, and they're not going to watch the documentaries that we all aware of are out there.
They're not going to watch those things. So if I can get some money to think about
eating less meat, eating less dairy, eating less things by doing the food, food group,
kind of health route, or just any food and lower carbon implant, whatever, you know,
it's a way to get there. I certainly value the animal rights and the animal issues of it. And
I think that's important. But if you turn somebody off by coming at them with the animal stuff first,
I think you've lost that person and then you're not going to get them back. And then their minds,
oh, vegans are like that. And then, you know, there's the jokes, you know, how do you know
someone's vegan? They'll tell you in my experience, people around me will tell people, oh, he's vegan.
Like, okay, why is that an issue? Like, you know, I mean, I don't, you know, I try to convert people
by food or I have guests over. I had a friend, we were a family friend who is he's 90 years old.
This man's a steak and potatoes kind of person. He came over, cooked me lovely mushroom leek
cassoladio and he ate it and loved it. Now I'm eating it. He didn't complain because it's a
lovely, lovely meal, you know. But I think if you go at somebody, then you say, you know, this, this,
this, this about animals, which is true. I mean, it's what we do is kind of horrific and how we
treat these beings is horrible. But I think most people don't want to hear that because they
understand they're contributing to it, right? In some fashion, they understand even the fact that,
you know, throughout mankind's history, you know, we don't call beef cow, right? It's called beef,
right? It's not pig, it's pork, right? And so we've made these changes to names veal isn't baby cow,
that's been kept in a pen and kind of tortured. No, it's veal, right? So we found ways to change
the names to kind of shelter people from this stuff. And the fact that people don't know how to,
you know, process their own things or how to, how to deal with it. And so they don't understand
where they are in that thing. Makes for me, I think there's already a disconnect there in the
first place. And so I just, I don't know, I think that it's very easy to be kind of the,
the angry vegan, which I get, I understand why people are like that. I get it. But I think if
you want to convert people to your cause, you need to be more approachable. And so I take that kind
of middle of the road thing. I said, I teach. And so like my students are aware of them a vegan,
but I never like, never like in your face, never at all. I'm just like, what do you have for lunch
today? I'm like, oh, here's what I have. And I tell them what's for lunch. And once she gets asked
me to bring lunch in and like, sure. I brought some things in to share. That's it. I'm not pushing
any agenda. I'm not telling anything about animals and not anything, but like, they're like, oh, wow,
that's tasty. Yes, it's tasty. I'm cooking good food here. Like this is, but like, I think for me,
at least I understand the ethical nature of it. And then certainly as part of my own process,
I don't buy animal stuff. I don't wear animal stuff. I'm there, but I feel that we need to be
careful how far you push that to where you're getting the blowback. And then a person who maybe
was maybe kind of considerate, even their face, you're killing animals. And then they're like,
okay, now I'm done. I think can you get them to phase into meatless Mondays? You can phase into
meatless Mondays and Tuesday. I guess I'm going to even get somebody to eat meat one less day a week.
They're not vegan, but that's better. Right? I mean, sure, it'd be great if they were all vegan,
but like even this one last day of the animals of consumption is better than one day more of animal
consumption. So that's kind of my thought process. And I completely agree. We should encourage people
to reduce their consumption of animal products instead of, you know, all of a sudden becoming
vegan. I want to get back to the health part, but first I want to talk about the anger you mentioned.
This is something I felt when I became vegan. I was pretty upset thinking about
the billions of animals exploited, tortured, killed and such. And there are plenty of vegans out there
who still feel upset after years of becoming vegan. And it's almost like a wound or something like
that where, you know, it comes up in discussing the topic of veganism. And that anger, you know,
I asked another guest about it and, you know, he mentioned how this was good. In fact,
you should feed that anger and keep that fire going. But part of me doesn't like that.
Just from, you know, a mental health perspective. And also, I've always said, you know, I'm vegan
out of love for animals, not because I'm angry or doesn't come from that sad passion. But what do
you think? Do you have an opinion on that? Well, I mean, I said, I mean, I, you know, I spent 30
some years eating animal products. And I was the typical American, you know, McDonald's Burger King,
whatever, bacon, egg and cheese, this or burger kind of thing. And I think it took for me a chance
to realize that I could eat not animals, and one be full, be healthy and be happy, to then reach a
point where I could, and then also said, Pete Singer's book, Animal Liberation was fantastic.
I know I also read a book called Vegan Freak. And I went through a whole binge of like things
like that for a while. It really helped broaden my eyes to what was going on. This is prior to
the documentaries that are out there now that you can watch and things like that. And so I, you know,
I don't, you know, again, I don't buy no certain things. And I think I have one piece of clothing
on my wardrobe. I have a kilt. My family clansman, it's a wool kilt because that's what they're made
from that I had years before I was vegan. I still have it. And not hurting any animals at this point.
It was before, you know, it's a kind of pre thing. And I have it, I work with me once a year,
twice a year. But I wouldn't buy a new one. I mean, I bought other kilts, but they're cotton,
they're canvas, they're whatever. They're not made from wool. Because I wouldn't do that at this
point. And so, I don't know, I think I had my own viewpoint, and I'm upset that the world is like
that. And people are still doing this kind of things. But I don't, I don't know, I don't hate
anything on the planet. I find that hating something requires me to be able to do it.
Hating something requires me to pour energy I have into something. And I don't want to pour
my energy into something negative, which to me hate is something negative. And so,
anger is kind of like that. So instead, I try to be positive. But at the same point,
I don't want to make someone else angry by getting in their face about what they're eating or their
choices. I can find ways to do it in a peaceful kind of friendly way. But I think if someone gets
in your face with something and really makes you angry, your tendency isn't to jump to their
conclusion. Your tendency is to be defensive. And I just think you want to convert people to
kind of the cause. You need to be positive and calm and happy and approach it. If someone's in
your face, like you're wrong, I just think the average person's going to go, yeah, you know,
that's for you. I don't need that conversation. And I think the goal is to increase animal safety,
decreasing consumption, animal usage, the way to do it is gradual, peaceful, calm.
And sure, you know what, you want to throw in climate change. I think, again, there's certain
political leaning in the country that's more inclined to believe in climate change, believe
in the animals contribute to climate change. And so there's a way, you know, you find somebody who's
kind of eco-friendly, but they're still eating animals. Well, hey, it's better for the planet.
You don't eat animals, please eat less of them. Okay. There's ways to approach a lot of people,
you know, then there's the person who's got, you know, the big trucks, fuel and fuel, and they want
to have their barbecue and everything else. And you don't have to convince them. I think you can
get in their face, but you're not going to convince them. So to me, it's work around them, you know,
find people around them and go from there. And eventually the people like that will have heart
attacks or high cholesterol issues and they'll laugh anyway. So, you know, that's my kind of
thought process, right? It's that one last forever. I mean, I also know that like they said that like
we go to Mars, I might have some freeze-dried food that contains animal products, but you get to Mars,
you're going to grow plants because they're not going to ship a cow to Mars. So people living on
Mars are going to at some point be basically a vegan diet and be living on plant-based things.
And so, okay, so we'll get, you know, there's a forward process there. We'll get more people
to do that kind of stuff because they realize, Hey, we have to, you know. So that's my long way
to answer to your question. Sorry, I ramble a bit. No, it's okay. It's perfect for a podcast.
In fact, I love the way you think because you have a strategic way of approaching this whole issue.
You're not a one answer kind of person. And yeah, I think that sometimes it requires a different
approach. You know, well, every time every person requires a different approach, but would you say
that some people need to be offended or that sometimes we need to upset in order to bring
about change. And I'm thinking about, for instance, those vegans who enter a restaurant where they
serve just meat and they make the protest and, you know, they will scream and such to the
at the customers. You have that kind of advocacy work. Do you think that sometimes upsetting
others is required to change the status quo? Well, I think the people who go into say a grocery store
and the stickers on things or going to a restaurant, you know, I don't go to no steakhouse because I
don't eat with the servant steakhouse. When possible, I eat at just vegan restaurants in
the first place. And occasionally at a place that has vegan options to support the fact that they
got vegan options, which might encourage them to have more vegan options. But I think that I
do see someone go outside a restaurant with a placard, the signs, whatever, maybe it shows,
you know, animals being mistreated, maybe it shows baby chickens, whatever it is,
then in the restaurant. And once you go in there, you're basically causing a disruption. You're
causing the problem for the business. You're causing a problem. Like the employees of the
business, the waitress, the waitress, the waiters, the busboys, the dishwashers, they didn't ask for
their job to be upended, upheaval, you know, whether they support the cause or not. Hey,
I don't know. I mean, but I don't agree with that kind of civil disobedience in that place. You
want to stand outside the place, you're perfectly allowed to protest, perfectly fine. It's part of
me. It's the right we've got in our constitution here in America. Sure, go ahead and do it. But
I think going into a place and causing disruption, it's me, I feel it crosses a line. I think you
can stand outside with pictures, placard signs, and still cause that same in your face kind of thing
without causing a problem for the business or the workers or that kind of thing. Because again,
to me, the concern is, are you going to actually going to make anyone angry? They'll be angry at
you because you've gone into the thing, but are they actually going to then go, oh my God, you're
right. And I just, I don't see it. And maybe part of this is, I mean, I teach as my day job. And,
you know, there are times occasionally you can kind of call somebody out on their crap, but
oftentimes you've got to kind of like, Hey man, let's be kind of chill and kind of, you got to
approach it kind of from the edges. You kind of can't always go at somebody because they tend to
do that and then get up and then it doesn't work well. So you've got to kind of work the edges and
then eventually find the place and everybody's calm. And now we can understand each other and
now we can go, Hey, you were wrong about that. I was okay. And then you can, but you just kind of
yell at them. There's a couple of kids you can maybe you can kind of bark at and they'll go get
that. But most of them, you can't do that. And I think people are like that, right? If someone's
in your face telling you you're wrong about what you're doing, most people don't want to just go,
Oh, you're right. They're like, you get defensive. And so I, I'm not a fan of that kind of in your
face. It will just be inside of a place, be it a restaurant, a mall, a store, maybe a mall is common
space, but like not in a store or not going and throwing paint on fur, or I think those kinds of
things cross a line into destructive nature and don't help the cause. I think if anything,
it gets spread across the news afterwards and it just makes people look a little crazy, a little,
you know, not song style norms. So that's me, you know?
Well, I agree with you. And, you know, I think part of me thinks that those people are working
out some inner feelings. I think it feels good to do so. Sometimes I feel like going inside,
you know, one of those restaurants where they serve some strange meats or something like that,
and start screaming at customers. I think there's something therapeutic to that. But
obviously I don't do it because in the long term, I don't think it's beneficial for the movement or
for myself. Yes. Yes. I totally get the desire. I mean, and, you know, as a person who,
I don't know, 15, 16, 17 years ago, you know, went to a Brazilian barbecue place where they
had every kind of thing on the planet you could imagine. It was just, you know, meat, meat, meat,
meat. But now I think about that, you know, I've had some people ask me like,
you had a burger tomorrow. What happened? I'm like, I don't know, but I'd probably either throwing
up or having real problems at the other end for days afterwards. My body hasn't processed
anal protein in 14 years. You know, and like I make some, I make something that has, you know,
in theory, it's, you know, egg-like or whatever else and people are like, oh, it tastes like egg.
I'm like, sure. But I haven't had an egg in 14 and a half years. So sure. What's an egg taste like?
I don't know. It tastes like the thing I'm making. I think I haven't had that stuff in a long time,
you know? So I just, I don't know. I get the desire to get people, if the whole planet could
change tomorrow, you know, from, you know, animal rights issues and sure, you know what people say,
well, all those cows would die then. Well, they would, they die of old age and they would die
happier lives. Not in theory, if they were not kept in cages and pens and that kind of stuff,
they'd be allowed to be on Rome fields and do things and die of old age. Sure. You know,
could you instantly stop animal production? Well, you'd have a whole bunch of animals that
no one wants to feed them. They can't sell them off afterwards. So that'd be a problem too. You
know, we don't want to have, you know, millions of animals starving because the companies,
the agribusiness decides we can't sell them, not going to feed them, you know? Well, that's no good.
So I think the gradual decline of consumption works better because then at least we're not
leaving animals to starve in the middle of nowhere and there are no sanctuaries to adopt, you know,
five billion pigs across the planet or whatever many pigs are out there. And, you know, but there
are sanctuaries. I went to a sanctuary, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago, upstate New York, a little
place and they've got beavers and they've got goats and other stuff. It was just a nice little
kind of cool place where animals can go and live happy lives and be okay. But like, I don't know,
I think that, you know, I get the anger, I get the frustration, but I think the world's not going to
change like that unless there's a sudden pressing outer need for, you know, some massive glacier
traps in the ocean and then it's climate change and we can link it or aliens suddenly arrive and
say, you guys are abusing animals and we can't, we don't like that and therefore we're going to
punish you. Okay. I think without some external force of great nature, I think mankind's going to
not make a rapid change. We'll have to do the gradual one and be okay with that in the process.
Now I want to at last go back to the health arguments that you make. First of all, I want to point out that
oftentimes we as vegans are confronted with all sorts of health claims from, and it's health
criticism from the outside world. And so we have to talk about health and we have to learn about
nutrition and we have to, you know, kind of build a little library of knowledge around that because
we're faced with so much criticism, health criticism regarding our health and it's just,
it's not just criticism. Sometimes it's concern from the ones closest to us. Like I remember my
parents asking me to do some blood work at least for the first two years just to make sure that I
was in good shape. So yes, but I also don't believe that veganism is, you know, at the other end of
the spectrum, like a miracle diet or a youth fountain of sort, because, you know, someone who
has a Mediterranean diet and he eats or she eats some fish sometimes, although there is mercury in
fish, I would not recommend that, but it's hard to argue that this person is, you know, more unhealthy
than I am because I'm vegan. So it's hard to compare those diets or to make the argument that
mine is superior than the Mediterranean diet with small amounts of fish. Although, you know,
I'm not stupid. I know that most people don't have a responsible diet and it's the case for most,
certainly the case for most North Americans. So what do you make of all of that?
Well, first of all, I think I look pretty good for my age. Thank you very much. But, you know,
I mean, you could live on, you know, a junk food diet and, you know, perhaps you just have genetics
that allow you to be, you know, I know six foot tall and 170 pounds and you look pretty good,
right? Now, and maybe even your cholesterol is not bad and just genetically you're predisposed to
that. You could be a person who only eats plants all the time and you do all the right stuff and
you're still, you know, 280 and you're high cholesterol because your body just makes more
cholesterol than it should. Some things are genetic. Some things you just can't fix. I know
I was able to lower my cholesterol significantly just by changing what I eat. And so to me,
I kind of swear by it. At the same point, things people like, you know, all protein, protein,
protein. Okay. As a kid who grew up in the seventies when chickens were smaller, because
chickens weren't the big massive things we have today, it's all breast meat, you know, a chicken,
a, a, a roaster chicken, which was smaller than a state with two to family of four or five for dinner
and the next night. And so you didn't get, you know, half a pound of protein on your plate.
Cause mom served a portion anyway, it was a drumstick or whatever. And that's what you ate.
And you had your potatoes and you had your vegetable and that we were fine. And we didn't
die of protein deficiency. And we were all fine as Americans and we did our thing. We were
perfectly fantastic. And we, you know, became America, you know, well, okay. Now there's a
sudden need to have like 85 billion grams of protein per meal. You don't like you don't. And
even for the crazy workout in the gym, you know, that protein for my workout, protein,
I work out. Okay. You think you're better. You're not really, probably really playing the actual
game here. Then they make you, probably by your kidneys work harder to process and get rid of
this stuff than you need to, you know, we beans and lentils and tofu and other stuff. And you know,
I don't eat a block of tofu, a whole block, every meal. No, I eat part of the block and
I share with my family and we're fine. We're okay. I have, I have a health condition that
is hereditary. There's nothing to do with being vegan in the slightest. That my aunt has, my
grandmother has been in the family for quite some time and I get blood work done all the time.
And my blood work generally is pretty fantastic. You know, my vitamin D is low. That's cause I
don't go out in the sun very much because I'm of a Northern European heritage and we burn quite
easily. And okay. But for everyone, it is, it's low gravity because we all have been told stay out
of the sun because sun causes cancer. So you gotta sunlight and wear sunblock and wear sunscreen.
Oh, okay. So we all do that. So these low gravity, but all the people who are saying, oh,
vegan is a loss of health stuff. It has to be fortified by your diet. Okay. All the omnivores
who are drinking fortified milk and fortified cereal and fortified, you know, bread and for,
it's all fortified. Everything is because we've also, we've also grown the plants to a point where
they don't have the nutrients they used to have because we're now making them in such vast quantities.
And so everything's fortified. And it'll be 12 as a concern. My B12 numbers are fine. I mean,
occasionally I've got a little like sublingual pill I can take for, but like, I do it occasionally
just because I think I should not because I need to. I'm not worried about it at all. So, I mean,
I eat, you know, a pretty diverse diet. I'm, you know, for a vegan, I do a lot of things. It's very,
it's very little. I won't actually, I can't even anything I won't eat. Not if you're in oatmeal,
that's a childhood trauma, but I'll still eat it. I have to, but at the same point, I still have
my occasional, you know, Ben and Jerry's, you know, non-dairy, you know, ice cream or my occasional
Oreo or potato chips or whatnot, but I eat a pretty good approach and that keeps me pretty healthy.
And, you know, I occasionally go, Oh, I need to lose a couple of pounds because I've been eating
too many potato chips and whatever. Okay. But I think going vegan, be more aware of my own body
range, the weight I'm comfortable at, the way that kind of should be at. Prior to that point,
I kind of didn't care. Whatever it didn't matter, but like being more conscious of what goes in
and the impacts it has on me has made me, I think a little more aware of that process. And so,
you know, I think that, will it solve all your health problems? No. Although I know people who
had, you know, patchy skin or who had asthma issues and they get rid of dairy and a lot of problems,
major problems went away. Didn't say they cured it. I'm not going to say they cured the problem,
but it's like they took out that irritant that the body had to deal with and suddenly now
their eczema is better, their asthma is better. It's like, they get rid of dairy. I mean, okay.
We're the only animal that drinks the lactation of another animal, right? Baby cows don't go drink
from goats, right? Goats don't go drink from, I don't know, bears, right? No, it says it, right?
We're the only animal that does this thing. And, you know, we're not really built for it. I mean,
sure. In some parts of the planet, genetically, there are whole ethnic groups that have a massive
lactose intolerance because they never did it before and just can't make that thing work.
And so to me, I think, you know, if I can eat plants and be healthy and happy, then why don't
you eat animals? Why don't you just make something else out of the process? And, you know, I grow
some plants in my garden and I buy something in the store and I just, I eat a broad range of things.
And so to me, yeah, my health standpoint, I think, you know, people listen to me,
how are you a protein? Like, what are you, your protein? You know, I ask them that like, well,
like, well, how much protein do you have today? And they're like, what do you mean? Like,
how many grams of protein? And I'm like, oh, like, you don't know, do you? Neither do I. All I know
is I'm eating enough because my body feels fine. Like it's okay. You'll find that one, like, you
know, um, you know, a workout kind of person will tell you, well, 46.9% proteins for all my macros
are fine. Okay. Good for you. But I don't know. I just, you know, I mean, I think it wasn't so
recently that America worked with this kind of stuff. Again, I grew up in the seventies and,
you know, mom put a bit of chicken on your plate or a little bit of liver or something else, and
you just ate it and you were fine. And we eat so much more protein now than we used to. And portion
sizes are huge, are big, but embarrassing. And it's like, we all survived. We were fine. So I kind
of look at that just with plants. And I also get the feeling that becoming vegan has empowered you
in, in your diet, in, in the way you eat. Um, and it has certainly had the same effect, uh,
you know, for me. Um, I would like to go back to your vegan journey and talk about, you know,
when you decided to become vegan, what was the reaction of the people around you, of your family,
of your circle of friends? Uh, was it a welcoming, warm reaction or was it full of concerns like my
parents? Uh, how was it? Um, well, let me see. At that point I was married to my ex-wife. Um,
I had two kids who were, um, let me see, five and three, roughly at the time. And then a mother-in-law
who also lived with us. Um, when I, the first three months that I was doing kind of just a plant-based
approach, I cooked my food, I cooked their food. And, um, occasionally they'd eat some of my food,
it was like a side dish. And then around that third or fourth month, I was like, you know what? Um,
once I started reading the books and getting more from plant-based to, to vegan, I'm going to look
at animals. I'm like, I'm not cooking animals anymore. You want animals, you cook them yourself.
But like, okay, I can't like kick you out of the house because I can't do that. But like,
that's it. And I stopped cooking animals. And so, um, other people cooked, cooked a meal or two for
a month or so and they realized they didn't want to cook anymore. So the house kind of just started
eating vegan food because I was cooking vegan food and they liked the food. And that went on
for quite some time. Um, and so whether they liked it or not, I don't know, but they kind of dealt
with it. You know, um, I had a good friend who was vegetarian. So that was a really, really easy
thing. Um, um, another good friend, um, who was also vegetarian, who, you know, made the effort to
kind of, Oh, I'll leave out the dairy and stuff to make things for you. Um, family doesn't always get
it. You know, um, you go to like an Easter gathering or Thanksgiving gathering and people make, you know,
say vegetables, it's corn or carrots or whatever it is. And they put butter on it, you know, like
he just put the butter off to the side. I could have it and you put the butter on afterwards.
And, um, I have one cousin who makes roasted potatoes every year at Easter. And she always
makes a point to tell me I made them with olive oil so you can have them. I'm like, well, thank you.
But like most people just don't, it's kind of, don't care. You know, I don't think it's an
intentional like screw you a thing, put butter on it, but it's also a, I don't care enough to pay
attention to either go by like an earth balance or something like that. I can't believe it's not
butter plant-based, you know, um, there's plenty of options out there these days to buy a non-dairy,
non-animal butter product. Um, but like they don't care enough to do that or leave it off,
you know, it's like, okay, now I know where I rank, right? I'm like, I'm like down here, you know,
and okay. You know, I show up to those things with some yummy thing to share because I would,
you know, I could show up with just enough for me. Um, but no, I show up with a big massive thing
or whatever it is. Um, my wife and I went to a, um, a, uh, a special like big date night kind of
thing with much other couples, uh, last summer. And I made a, um, ACA vegan Wellington. So it's a,
you know, it's a puff pastry full of vegan gluten-free puff pastry with mushrooms and
something inside of it. And it was gone. People just devoured it. But I'm like, but I know,
but meanwhile, you know, while there are ribs and wings and other stuff at the same,
because it was an omnivore event. And then afterwards I was like, you know, that makes me
happy. Like that makes me happy. Like people ate that kind of stuff and they knew it was vegan.
And then it was gluten-free. Cause my wife, my wife, I had celiac so she can't have gluten. Um,
and, but they knew it and they ate it and they loved it. And it's like, that's to me, how I can
be show, you know, that works. But, um, yeah, I find people were less supportive maybe 14 years ago.
And as with anything else in time, these days, I think they're kind of just like, okay, yep,
he's vegan. You know, I'll show up to some family function. My dad will go, Oh,
Chris has got the vegan dish. It's like, well, yes. You know, he'll be like, it's vegan rice and
beans. I'm like, well, if rice and beans, dad, it should be vegan in the first place. Like, I mean,
otherwise it'd be like beef and rice and beans, right? It was not. So it's just rice and beans.
It's not vegan rice and beans. It's just rice and beans. But dad always calls it like, here's the
vegan dish. It's like, thanks for now. No one wants to eat it. Cause I like it's vegan, but like,
I don't know. I think mostly people in my circle are fairly friendly. There's the occasional
people who are still like, I'm going to use a cheeseburger to balance you out. Okay. I knew
a heart attack. I won't. It's all fine. It's all good. You know, um, I joke about it. I kind of
just be like, yeah, okay. You do you, you know, I, you do you, man, I can't, you know, but these,
these, my circle of friends are fairly, um, no, they're fairly tolerant, fairly accepting, fairly,
um, we went to a wedding recently and the, um, the bride, um, told me that I was in the wedding
party and the bride told me that her caterer was optioning chicken or beef. That was it. There was
no other option for anything else. I was like, okay. So, so we're going to bring her own food,
you know, and she was like, um, uh, I said, I'm not asking him. I'm telling you, cause I'm not
going to go there and like not eat the entire night. Cause if we're going to do this. And so
we, the wait staff, when we got there, the wait staff were like, we said, we don't eat, you know,
animals and they're like, oh, we can give you a salad at least. And so they brought us like,
they gave us like a bigger helping of salad. And the first one was nice. And then we had our own
dinner. We brought with us and put on a place and the guests were like, the table were like,
what'd you guys get? Like, oh, we brought it from home. Like, oh, that looks really good. Like,
well, thank you. Thank you. And you know, so we didn't have dessert, but like we had this salad
course, we had a main and then, okay, so we missed dessert. Okay. You know, so yeah. Um, but yeah,
I'm just, I'm not going to be the guy who sits in the corner and doesn't eat a meal. I'm going to
bring myself and you know, politely, politely, um, but same point, I'm going to do the thing. So.
Well, talking about the, the vegan label, I like how, you know, this micro situation that you are
living, you know, um, what kind of reaction people will have knowing that this is vegan. Um,
this kind of situation is lived by big, uh, food brands when they have to decide whether to announce
that their product is vegan or just, you know, right. I've read, you know, plant-based, I've read
all sorts of ways to go around that label. And sometimes you just don't mention it. I mean,
Oreos. Yeah. I mean, people, I said that, people go there. What's that white stuff? I'm like
chemicals. Um, I don't know. It's, it's certainly not dairy. I mean, it's, you know, um, yeah. I mean,
Oreos have decided, have decided to, um, Doritos, these spicy, sweet, chili Doritos are the purple
bag. For those of you who are out there listening to the podcast, the purple bag are vegan. Now
you should eat, you know, 8,000 bags of those. You shouldn't, but they're tasty. But like,
so they don't market them as vegan ones though, because then no one's going to buy them. So they
market them and like those in the, no, no, but otherwise people would buy them, eat them and
they didn't think they were tasty. So I think some companies have decided it's just like, well, the
vegans know if we market it as vegan, it's going to impact someone's going to go, I can't buy it.
It's vegan. It won't have any flavor. It won't be whatever it's what, you know. And so that,
and the plant based thing is be careful because you'll say plant based and a lot of dairy in them
or eggs in them. It's like, and that's because they're plant based, but they're not like plant
complete, I guess, as to how they look at it. So I'm always a little cautious about, um,
thank you for mentioning me because I had that experience. Yeah. I bought some things and then
like I was at, um, we were at Trader Joe's and bought some chips and we got up to the car and
realized they had milk in them. I'm like, why is there milk in this? Like, yeah. And like, okay.
And okay. Well, so those went off to, um, I think we gave them off to somebody else. We knew who
would eat such things. And it's like, okay, I already bought them. I'm Ken, you know, but, um,
yeah, I just, um, I think from a marketing standpoint, there are things that are clearly,
you know, um, I'm not sure. I'm not sure even beyond burgers. Um, I think in the back of the
boxes, maybe there's a little vegan logo, but I don't think in the front, this is vegan. I think
it's just, I think it's just beyond burgers, you know, like the meat, you know, the meat section.
Yeah. Oftentimes. Yeah. But, but I think they don't want to put it in your face. It's the vegan
burger. Like we know it is, but they don't want to put the vegan beyond beef. They just beyond beef.
Um, and, um, I know the, the just egg products, um, I've made, um, quiches and frittatas with
those and people have been, people have been blown away. And it's like, great. Again, you can
do this kind of stuff and not need the animal for it. Um, but yeah, I think the corporations, um,
I think some things don't market that way. I know there's a new vegan Reese's peanut butter cup.
I've been looking for it. I don't know where it is, but it's not essential. I'll tell you that.
Cause I just granted I'm a big, big kind of Justin's, but I figured why not at least try out
this other one? I mean, cause again, I realized that Reese's and the corporation, and they buy a
whole bunch of dairy and there's questionable cocoa practices and all those other things out there,
but those companies are not going to move to plant based products unless you will buy the
front of that base products. Right. And so, you know, if we don't don't, you know, so like,
well, if I can find it, I'll buy some. Um, now if they don't taste great, I'll stop buying them. But
like, if they taste decent, I'll buy those and I'll pay the extra, you know, vegan surcharge
because things cost more for us, it seems, but like I'll do it. It helps encourage the sales
for the process, but I got to find them. And like, I, I looked at most of the places I can find. I
can't find them. So I don't know where they are, but, um, well, yeah. And to me, I, I try to
encourage that kind of process, you know, I mean, I'm Ben and Jerry's is a whole line now, a whole
variety of non-dairy. Again, they don't see plant based. They don't say vegan. They say non-dairy.
It's very subtle. Right. So, Oh, I have a lactose issue. I'll buy the non-dairy one, right. So
without being, you know, you can, ways you can do it without advertising your vegan, but they got
all their bunch of flavors. They have, you want the chunky monkey or you want the, you know,
cherry Garcia. They've got those. The fish food is fantastic. Um, so yeah, I just, you know, there's
ways to do it, but I think the companies are fearful of the anti-vegan backlash. And I think
especially in America today, there is, there is a politicalization of many different issues, um,
um, be it gender identity, be it, you know, uh, religion, other kinds of stuff. And for whatever
reason, veganism becomes part of this thing. I think it's perceived as a, um, a lefty, um,
liberal kind of thing. And therefore, um, you know, for people who are not lefty liberals, um,
it's a fun thing to attack and go after and whatnot. And so these corporations don't want to
lose, you know, for Oreos. And they said, we're vegan. I can see people that boycott Oreos. They
were vegan forever, but boycott them now. So I think they're just like, we're not going to tell
anybody, you know? So if you're not a lefty liberal listening to this podcast, Oreos, just ignore the
fact that they're vegan, just keep eating them. Okay. It's all good. Well, I'm going to say
something that will not help, but, um, I also think that, um, uh, a wonderful thing about
vegan food is that it's inclusive. You know, you, people have so many, um, you know, religious
rules and cultural rules and, um, allergies and often, you know, vegan food is gluten free. Um,
and you know, when you serve vegan, you can, uh, bypass all of those, uh, limitations and you're
saying, Oh, everyone can eat from that. You know, you don't have to think about it before, um, um,
um, touching it. Um, so let me, um, ask you, Chris, um, about, um, how so many vegans,
and there's this study from funnel. Lytics, I think, um, decides to go back to their old diet.
And I think the study says, you know, 84% of, uh, vegans and vegetarians decide, um, to, to go back
to, uh, an omnivore diet. And, uh, 34%, um, uh, do so only after a few months. And we talked about,
you know, the ethical versus the health versus, um, uh, the, um, the, the climate, uh, causes for,
uh, making someone, um, go vegan. But, um, would you say that, um, the reason why you become vegan
is also important, um, um, in the sense of, if this is not a strong enough reason, you might after
a year or two, or even after a few months, decide to go back to your old diet. Um,
um, and you know, I'm one to say, you know, if you are vegan for ethical reasons, even if it's
an afterthought, you know, after, um, or, you know, you decided to make that choice for ethical
reasons after having made the choice to become vegan for health reasons or such, I think
the chances for you to stay vegans for years to come, um, is more likely, but what, how would you
comment about this? How would you explain, first of all, this phenomenon? Why do people
don't stay vegan for long? Although it's super convenient these days. So, um, and do you think
it has to do with the reasons or do you have another, uh, reason to explain that? Well,
I guess it's such a thing. If the first point you said about religion, um, certainly, you know,
you're not worried about things being kosher or things being haram or, I know, um, crossing those
other boundaries when it's all from plants in the first place, you're not crossing, you know, I
think of any major religions, you know, whether it's, you know, um, dairy or pork or seafood or, or
or beef, you know, thing of Hindus, you avoid all those issues, right? Cause it's just plants. Um,
and I know there's also large parts of the world where, you know, lentils, beans, rice,
they're cheap food. I know there's this current mindset that being vegan is expensive. Well,
sure. If you want to eat all the meal replacement stuff, sure. Sorry, one second. I've got a little
one who wants to, um, but, um, I think there's a, um, say hi. Um, there's a, I think a push
to think that we have to eat all that stuff, but you can eat beans and rice and lentils and vegetables
and be perfectly fine. And not been allowed to do that kind of stuff. As far as why people do it and
then stop doing it. Um, for me personally, because I had my own health concerns going into it,
but I looked at it. Hey, Hey, I looked at it as, you know, um, almost like an allergy, right? Or a,
a, um, a health condition that if I continued to eat animals, I was increasing my cholesterol. I
was running risk of heart disease, heart attack, whatever. I like being alive. So I viewed it
as an allergy from basically about three months after four six, oh nine. Um, and so I never really
had a craving. There's a little while at first, the first one, so I was like ice cream, ice cream,
because the ice cream 14 years ago was kind of crap. Okay. It's fantastic these days. So,
you know, there's no reason to now be like, I can't have ice cream. Sure you can, you know, um,
but really even then it's like, well, I miss this one thing. I think vegan cheese is coming
there. It's not quite what it could be, but is it worth the suffering of something else? Is it worth
my health issues? Is it worth the suffering of the animals to make it? Is it worth that? No,
no, it's not. It's just not. I think it's not, are you willing to look beyond yourself? Right?
Is that matter of my desire? Oh, I really miss cheeseburgers. Oh, okay. So get some
wildlife slices, get a Beyond Burger or Impossible Burger and make a burger. Well, it's not the same.
No, no one had to suffer for it. You're right. It's not the same. Um, and if that's still not
good enough for you, well, that's, that's a, that's a, I know that's a kind of, um, um,
I don't say spoiled, but internal, like, I want this is that kind of, um, uh, Veruca from, um,
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, you know, I want my Oompa Loompa now or give me that squirrel.
Um, it's okay to not have everything. It's okay. You know, I don't have a million dollars. It'd be
nice if I had it, but I'm not going to demand it. You know, I mean, um, so I think some people,
they either put themselves in a point where I've maybe, maybe they are that angry vegan in their
circle of friends and then no one wants to talk to them and no one wants to hang out with them.
And therefore it's hard to be the vegan because if you go at it that way, whereas
I go someplace with friends and you know, I mean, I don't know years ago, um, I was hanging out with
a friend of mine from work and some of his friends and went to go see the first Avengers film. So I
don't know how that is. And we went out to a restaurant to have a dinner before or after the
film. And my option of that restaurant was French fries. That was the vegan option on the, on the
on the menu was French fries. So I ordered French fries and I had a beer. I knew it was okay to
drink and that's what I have for dinner. And you know what? I'm okay with that. Um, you know,
yeah, I survived and I could have stood in the parking lot and like stared into the window.
What was the point in that, you know? Um, and so sometimes you have got to know going some place,
you're going to eat the French fries or you're going to have the plain salad with a boring
dressing and that's what you're going to have. Okay. Yep. That's part of the deal as you're
choosing to make that approach to take a stand for what you believe in. Now, if your own beliefs
are weak enough that you can't do that at some point you give it, you fall back, you see,
oh, okay. I can't, you know, but I don't know. I, you know, I, I also know for myself, if I were,
if I were to suddenly say, you know what, I got a cheeseburger once a month. Well,
that would turn into once a week, turn into, I don't know, once a day and I'd have a heart attack
and you know, shortly that'd be gone. Um, I'm perfectly glad being where I am. But I think
for people who convert, I love to know what they feel their story is. Like why, you know, because
well, I wasn't unhealthy. What were you eating? I mean, were you eating Oreos and Doritos and
Ben and Jerry's or were you eating lentils and beans and a variety of vegetables and all the
colors? Like, were you eating the way that I think you and I both eat or were you eating the junk
food vegan diet? Because you can eat a junk food, regular diet and stuff like that. It's not the
vegan thing. It's what do you choose to eat? You know, you're kind of person, you're just doing
microwaves, you know, Annie's burritos. Well, no one do you feel like junk. I mean, nothing is
Annie's or Amy's but like, it's fast food, right? It's frozen fast food. You know, learn how to cook,
save some money, learn how to cook. I don't know. I mean, I grew up on a very much typical American,
you know, meat and potatoes, canned vegetables on the plate, kind of diet, eventually frozen
vegetables. It was fine. It wasn't very exciting. But like, I've learned how to flavor things and
do so much more. And people were going to cook a little bit and diversify. And I'll even watch
cooking shows that have animal products in them be like, how can I make a vegan version of that?
Because to me, it's not about watching the animal stuff. But it's about the,
that sounds interesting. How can I do something different, you know? And then creating something,
I mean, I make a bolognese sauce once a week. I use a recipe from Gordon Ramsay, who is not a big
vegan fan, by the way. But his recipe, you know, he puts in his pound of mince and I put my pound of
Beyond Meat. And it's darn tasty. I don't know what his tastes like, but I know mine's pretty good.
And so to me, that's part of it. But I think, and that's the people who quit, I mean, I don't know,
I don't want to insult them. They've got their reasons, I'm sure. But I think that's part of the
process. It's like, well, to me, why? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think to a certain extent,
for me, this will sound a weird thing. I can't say that animal products for me were an addiction,
because they weren't. But I ate them and they were not good for me. Well, saddened by the fact that
also they also weren't good for the animals I was eating either, because it's bad for the animals.
But they weren't good for me. And I can reach a point where I said, I need to stop doing that,
and not keep doing it. And I look at it as I can't go back to it, because it's bad for me. And bad
for them. It's bad for the planet. It's bad for all these things, right? It's environment, animals,
me, the whole deal. So I don't. I don't cheat. I don't like go, oh, I'll go eat that. No, I don't.
I do the thing. And that's just how it is. And that's how it's going to be. It's been 14 years
now. I can't imagine suddenly starting tomorrow. I just can't see it. I don't know. Years ago,
I was going to get a tattoo across my heart that said plant power. And I didn't, because I didn't
like the design the artist came up with, and I didn't get it done. But yeah, it was more to
encourage me to keep going. And at this point, I'm like 14 years, I don't need a tattoo anymore. I
got plenty of other tattoos, but I don't need that one. But I just, I mean, family and friends just
know Christmas, Thanksgiving. They know that I'm going to show up with food, or they're going to
encourage. We hosted Thanksgiving, a bunch of vegan food. It's here you go. Come in here.
That's what you're going to get. So you're going to be healthier for it. I hope so. I mean, you
know, I mean, but, you know, again, there's still, you know, plenty of, you cover it full of, you
know, Earth balance and we're also still not selling all that for you. But you know, I mean,
not to, not to the offense, not to the offense of Earth balance, but like, you know, you can make
anything unhealthy. Well, you know, Thanksgiving dinners are not made to be healthy. True, true.
Let's not destroy the fun of that event. So Chris has a last question. I would like to ask you,
what would you want listeners to retain from our conversation? Well, if, if you're a non-vegan
listening to the podcast, I say, give it a try, but give it a try in a way that's supportive.
Right. Don't just walk through your kitchen, throw out every single thing you think of the noise
normally, you know, maybe again, start with that meatless Monday, maybe a meatless Monday and
Wednesday. I don't know. Try something like that. Phase in, right? I think I went, I went cold
turkey or cold tofu, if you want to put it that way. And literally to me, it was like a Sunday.
I ate something and Monday I didn't, I went all in. Not everyone can do that. Some people need to
phase in. A lot of people find cheese really hard, like, okay, so do everything but the cheese for
a while, you know? And then if you're going to not do cheese for a while, don't do cheese for a
while. Don't like Monday eat, I don't know, a slice of Land O'Lakes pasteurized, you know,
pasteurized plastic cheddar stuff you're going to get in the store and then Tuesday eat Violet.
It's not going to taste the same. You know, for cheese, especially you need like a couple months
to like get it out of your system and then try the vegan cheeses. They're all right. They're not
great. They're getting better. But I think so for the non-vegans who are listening, try some stuff.
You know, just cut some animals out, you know, eat less of them. For the vegans, keep doing what
you're doing. I mean, rock on. I just think that it's too easy maybe to just go, oh, I couldn't do
it. Well, why? Why couldn't you do it? Like, why? What made you not want to do it? Because certainly
14 years ago, there were way less things and options out there, you know? You find a veggie
burger in the frozen section that's been there for a while, you know, whereas now there's all kinds
of options. You can go to, you know, chain restaurants and they've got Impossible Burgers and Beyond Burgers,
and you can find these things out there. You know, get a Burger King, get an Impossible Upper,
although it's on the same grill as Questionable. You know, but like there's just options out there
that weren't there before. And so I think, you know, think of yourself, think of the planet,
think of the animals, think of nice things. And why not just, you know, if you're already doing it,
keep doing it. If you're not doing it yet, think about doing it. Try doing it. I'd say, you know,
if you want a support system, not that I'm the end all be all, but you know, I am toe viewing on
Instagram. I'm not there that often, but I'm sure if you message me, it'll tag me in some sort of
process there, but I'm also on Reddit as TeacherManCT. So be glad to offer anybody input thoughts.
That's such a generous offer.
What's it cost me? You know, all the time, right? I mean, no, but like seriously, like,
it's when you reached out about the unit, this like, well, why not? What, why have to lose?
I mean, you know, it's not an hour of my time. Sure. Why not? You know, if it gets one other
person thinking about doing it, isn't that worth it? Yes. And I will leave a link to your Instagram
and also your Reddit in the description. I think I will mention it in the introduction too.
Excellent.
So Chris, thank you so much. This has been truly a pleasure and you, you made me hungry
after talking about this. I wish you invite me sometime to, to, to your,
to your house, you know, to taste all of those amazing dishes you make.
And yeah, I love it's inspiring how you are strategic in your ways of approaching people.
Truly I love that. So yes.
Well, I'll say thank you. This has been a, been a fun experience and I wasn't sure what I was
getting myself into here. I've done another podcast, another podcast a couple of times as a,
as a guest, as a guest. And this has been a bit, been fun and I'm glad to, I don't know where you,
where you're based in the world, but oh, I'm sure if you're ever going to be in central Connecticut,
well, if you're ever going to be in central Connecticut, let me know, reach out and let me know.
Cause there's always room for one more at the table.
Thank you everyone for listening. Make sure to share this episode with family and friends,
give them a window into the life of a vegan. Next week, we are going to talk about farmers
and farm workers making the choice to adopt a more ethical source of income and the small
dedicated organization called Farm Transition Academy, helping them make that transition
happen. It's so inspiring hearing about workers of this industry turning their back to animal
exploitation. So subscribe now and don't miss out on that feel good conversation. Finally,
you can always reach me on Instagram at vegan report podcast. Thank you again for listening.
Take care and see you next week.