1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,480 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report. 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:12,000 If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:18,880 where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:25,760 passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special 5 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:32,800 contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Today we are going 6 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:39,120 to talk about justice for animals. To discuss this topic, I have with me William who works 7 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:46,160 as legal counsel for Animal Partizan. And be careful listeners, because Animal Partizan 8 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:55,200 has been labeled as, and I quote, a major animal rights extremist group by the Animal Agriculture 9 00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:00,640 Alliance. If you visit Animal Partizan's website, and the link is in the description, 10 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:07,600 this is their mission statement. Our mission is to end the suffering of animals in slaughterhouses, 11 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:15,680 farms, and labs by discovering, exposing, and challenging unlawful conduct in all its farms. 12 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:22,480 We're small but tenacious. I love that. From bringing criminal charges against slaughterhouses 13 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:28,320 to uncovering hidden cruelty in labs, to training the new generation of animal lawyers, 14 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:35,280 we're becoming a thorn in the side for the animal agriculture and research industries. Wow, 15 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:40,640 just reading that makes me feel motivated. You know, I want to stand up and make a difference. 16 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,560 So William, I'm so happy to have you on. Welcome to the show. 17 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,320 Thank you so much for having me, Ryan, and thanks for putting this podcast together. I think there's 18 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,320 so much information on this topic out there, and I think any channels to get information to the 19 00:01:54,320 --> 00:02:01,120 public are valuable. So thank you for all your work. Of course. Amazing. So would you like to 20 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,920 first introduce yourself, William? How did you find yourself working for Animal Partizan? 21 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:14,000 Absolutely. So my path to where I am today was a little circuitous. I had actually started 22 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:19,760 not even in law. I worked a corporate career. I had graduated from school here in the United 23 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,960 States in Virginia. Wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do, and I ended up working for 24 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,920 a very large financial corporation as a process engineer, and I was designing how the business 25 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:36,480 worked and managing large projects. And at some point in probably 2002, I ended up getting a 26 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:42,560 couple of pit bull type dogs from the local city shelter. And I always say that for me was Pandora's 27 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:49,200 box, and it opened my eyes to sort of the plight those dogs experience, discrimination, dog fighting. 28 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,880 And then that led to me just volunteering for every animal welfare, animal rights volunteer group 29 00:02:54,880 --> 00:03:00,240 that I could locally. I think there was a point where I was volunteering or running 11 different 30 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:06,160 local organizations while I was working full time for the financial corporation. And at some point, 31 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:11,600 I kind of just said, look, I want to do this for a career. And I had kept seeing this intersection 32 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:18,000 of law and animals and decided to go to law school late in life to pursue animal law. I packed up, 33 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:24,080 went to law school in Vermont, graduated, worked at a court in New Jersey for a little bit, 34 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:30,480 was fortunate to end up at a great organization, Animal Outlook, was their legal counsel for three 35 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:36,800 years, working on civil litigation, working with our undercover investigators. And then about a 36 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,920 year ago, decided to branch out on my own and start Animal Partisan. And the driver for that 37 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:48,320 was really just that there are so many legal theories and options available to try to help 38 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:54,000 animals and compare that with the magnitude of suffering that's happening. It just felt for me 39 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:59,840 like I needed to do whatever I could to maximize what I'm able to do in my time on this planet. 40 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,840 And for me, that was going off to start my own thing and sort of pursuing some of these legal 41 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:14,560 theories. Sounds like effective altruism. Do you follow that philosophy? I'm familiar, you know, 42 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:20,400 definitely familiar with it. You know, it's not the way that I think of it, not to say it is 43 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:26,000 either here nor there. But for me, it's just about, I have limited time left on this planet. I know 44 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:31,360 there's suffering out there. I've seen it firsthand. I've seen it through others. And it's just a simple 45 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:37,520 equation of the time that I have, the hours during the day, the days during the week, what can I do 46 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:43,200 that's going to have a meaningful impact on that? So that's whatever label anyone wants to put on it. 47 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,840 That's just the way I think of it. I mean, as you know this as well as I do, as we sit here now, 48 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:52,960 animals are suffering. You know, probably miles from each of us, there are animals in factory 49 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:58,240 farms, there are animals in labs. And there's just an urgency about the issue that I think we all need 50 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:05,520 to do something about. So William, we don't know each other, but you don't sound like an extremist. 51 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:13,200 I don't feel like I'm in the presence of Che Guevara. So what is the Animal Agriculture Alliance? 52 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:20,400 And why are they calling animal partisan an extremist group? A major extremist group, sorry. 53 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:27,280 Yeah, it's definitely not just animal partisan. I mean, the Animal Agriculture Alliance, to my 54 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:33,840 understanding, is an organization that supports animal agriculture producers, at least here in 55 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:39,120 the United States. And one of their big functions, at least that they advertise and they charge 56 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:44,720 thousands of dollars from agricultural producers, is this sort of quote unquote monitoring of animal 57 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:50,080 rights, quote unquote animal rights activist groups. And so, you know, they're purporting to be 58 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:55,600 sort of the watchdog for what the animal people are doing and what threats might exist to the 59 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:02,320 industry. And so, you know, they've often produced this large, very complicated, almost, I wouldn't 60 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:08,400 say almost unreadable, it is completely unreadable diagram that alleges to show connections between 61 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,680 the different animal groups. And, you know, animal partisan is one of probably 40 groups on there. 62 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,960 To some extent, I think it's a badge of honor for these groups to say that, you know, the animal 63 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,440 agriculture industry has taken notice of the work that's being done. But there are plenty of other 64 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:28,240 groups that, you know, everyone is aware of. Your PETA's and the United States and animal 65 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:33,920 equalities and all of the other groups doing wonderful, wonderful work. And so, I think the 66 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:41,840 word extremist is easy to use and throw about if trying to alleviate, reduce and end exploitation 67 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:47,200 and suffering is extreme. I just question what sort of world we live in. I think it's one of 68 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,760 those terms that, you know, people know if you throw about you brand somebody with the term 69 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,960 extremist, some people won't even read past that and they'll just think extremist means this 70 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:02,320 person's ideology is nonsense. I shouldn't listen to that. I should discount them. And I'm sure that 71 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,960 that's part, or I would suspect that's part of the strategy of the Animal Agriculture Alliance, 72 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:12,640 is to brand groups in many cases who are, or in most cases, doing very, very reasonable things 73 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:18,080 that the majority of the public would agree with if they knew about. So I, you know, I would take 74 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:25,120 that term with a grain of salt. And if people want to have a look at that unreadable diagram, 75 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:32,720 they can visit the Instagram account of Animal Partisan. You have published the diagram and 76 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:40,960 it's quite fascinating to look at it. Let's get to the core of the topic. Can you draw for me 77 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:48,560 a portrait of the legal situation of animals? What do I mean by that? Well, without getting 78 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:55,520 into details, what is exactly the legal status of animals? Are animals considered sentient by the 79 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:02,560 law? Are animals protected against cruelty and abuse by the law? Can animals have rights? So 80 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:10,800 this is just a bundle of questions here. Yeah, it's definitely not an easy answer to that 81 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:16,480 question, as you might expect. I mean, there's a lot tied up in that. And I can speak to the American 82 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:22,000 system of law. I can't really speak beyond that. But in the United States, animals are really 83 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,720 considered property. I mean, we have Supreme Court cases going back decades and decades about 84 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:32,560 dogs on train tracks and others, where it's explicit that animals are considered property 85 00:08:32,560 --> 00:08:37,120 and that the state may regulate sort of the ownership control of animals in general. 86 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:42,640 So animals are not human beings. I mean, it is plainly evident from reading any statute or law 87 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:48,400 that in the law in the United States, animals are not considered on par with human beings. They are 88 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,840 considered property, something less than human beings. When it comes to the question of rights, 89 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:59,600 it's a complicated question. There's a lot of groups doing wonderful work in that. I would first 90 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:05,600 give a plug to the Non-Human Rights Project, which is one of the preeminent groups in the United 91 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:11,440 States working to obtain legal rights for animals. But animals do have some protections. It gets a 92 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:16,560 little squishy when you talk about what's a right, what's a protection, like is the ability to be 93 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:21,600 free from cruelty a right or is that just something else? And so I'm not sure I have the answer to 94 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:29,120 that. But here's what I will say. In the law, animals do have certain protections written in 95 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:36,080 the law. I'll add two caveats to that. One, it's not a lot. And for some animals like animals used 96 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:43,040 in agriculture research, it is in fact very little, almost nonexistent. And two, I would caution any 97 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,920 listeners that the fact that something is written in the law does not mean that it happens in 98 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,720 practice. I think we get complacent in a lot of regards and people think that, oh, there's a law 99 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,280 written, everything's going to stop, this will be wonderful. The enforcement of laws is a whole 100 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,920 separate situation. So I would caveat when I say there are things written in the law, that doesn't 101 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:08,000 mean that these always happen in practice. But regarding what is in the law, all 50 states in 102 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:14,800 the United States have anti-cruelty provisions that prevent certain things like beating, abusing, 103 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:21,040 overdriving, overloading, tormenting, torturing, these types of things. So there's a whole host of 104 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:28,400 written protections. In most of these states, those written protections exempt certain conduct. So 105 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:36,720 standard agricultural practices, common farming operations, or bona fide animal research are all 106 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:42,560 excluded from those things. And so you have this scenario to your question, some animals have 107 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:49,760 written protections that allow them or purportedly should allow them to be free from cruelty. Is that 108 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,320 a right or not? I don't know. It's not the kind of right that you would think of where I'm the right 109 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:59,040 to be free and I could go pursue my livelihood and I could go wherever I want and I can socialize. 110 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,360 Those are the more substantive rights and I think that's what people generally talk about when they 111 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:09,360 say rights. And so to summarize all of that, animals are considered in the law in the United 112 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:15,040 States less than humans. They're considered property. They do have some written protections. 113 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:23,280 Those protections generally are poorly enforced and they do not include largely certain common 114 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:28,800 situations in agriculture research funding or those types of things. But animals don't have 115 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:34,720 rights of autonomy, association, and those types of things. So the net net is it's a pretty lowly 116 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,760 position for animals in the law, which creates lots of opportunity for folks practicing animal law. 117 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:48,880 Hmm. And something I find truly mad about our laws is that there is discrimination between species of 118 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:55,840 animals and that reflects our cultural discrimination. So for instance, there is a 119 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:06,080 set of rules for dogs and cats and they're considered pets. They're more perceived as 120 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:15,360 being sentient, but then there's another set of laws for farm animals, cows, pigs, chickens, and 121 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:28,480 such. How do you explain that? How did that weird cognitive dissonance made its appearance? 122 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,160 Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, there definitely are distinctions drawn in the law 123 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:39,600 between types of animals and the distinctions are arbitrary. I mean, anyone who has spent time with 124 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:47,280 any type of farmed animal, for example, would know. I mean, I'm fortunate enough to have on 125 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:52,240 the property where I live, we have sheep and goats and chickens and I've spent decades with dogs. And 126 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:58,160 I can tell you that take the goats, for example, the goats are every bit as cognitively aware and 127 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:03,440 playful and affectionate and the sheep and the chickens as well. And the chickens, the complexity 128 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,280 of their sounds and their social interactions. I mean, these are things that people don't realize. 129 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:13,440 And so you start with this premise of it is an artificial dichotomy between these types of animals. 130 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:19,440 But to your question, yes, it absolutely exists. I mean, we say on one hand, the law will say 131 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:25,360 companion animal or domestic animal, and it will define animals such as dogs and cats and maybe 132 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:30,400 horses and gerbils and those types of animals. And on the other hand, we have these exemptions 133 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:36,720 that will say, if you are an animal being used in a medical research experiment, or if you are being 134 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:42,160 used in agriculture, you're different. You're not that type of animal. You're this type of animal. 135 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:48,720 And I think your question gets to a couple things. One is just, it's really, quote unquote, 136 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:54,400 social utility. It's how people view these animals. I mean, people have lived with domesticated dogs 137 00:13:54,400 --> 00:14:00,480 for many, many years and they form bonds and they generally socially think of dogs in one category. 138 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:05,600 This is almost part of the family. These are animals that live near the household. And then, 139 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:10,000 you know, commercially, we have used and exploited other animals for other purposes. 140 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:16,960 And so it gets to what is the benefit to society in the eyes of society, right? It's like, well, 141 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:22,320 these animals can help us, quote unquote, make sure these products are safe or these animals can 142 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:27,680 be food for the dinner plate. Therefore, they have less value. We should care less about them. 143 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:33,120 And that's how the laws are written. And so in large part, it reflects how society views these 144 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:38,720 animals. And I think it's largely directed to the perceived utility of these animals. It has nothing 145 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:44,000 to do with the fact that these animals are one in the same. Like, they think, they feel pain, 146 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,880 they suffer. Just like we do, they're no different. It, unfortunately, as with many things, 147 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:54,800 you know, boils down to what society deems is useful for humanity. And that's the sad 148 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,200 state of reality we kind of live in. It's even sadder for the animals that are stuck in the system. 149 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,720 Thank you for this explanation. You know, it clarifies things for me, because I was thinking 150 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:10,320 in terms of species. But yeah, it's better to think about it in terms of function, because 151 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:16,800 you could have a dog in a lab, and then a dog as a pet, they have different functions. And so they 152 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:25,840 have different legal standards applied to them. Yeah, thank you for that. So in preparation 153 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,800 for this interview, I was thinking about a conversation I had with Dr. Jens Vult, who is 154 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:39,360 the director of Fona Sanctuary, which is the biggest primate sanctuary in Canada. And that was 155 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:45,760 actually episode one of the podcast. And she was explaining to me that the reason why we don't 156 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:53,200 recognize chimps, and there are many good reasons to recognize them as people, in terms of in 157 00:15:54,080 --> 00:16:00,960 legal terms, because, you know, they are our closest evolutionary relative, they have faces, 158 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:10,080 I mean, the resemblance with chimps, you know, between humans and chimps is truly astounding, 159 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:16,880 is because the fact that we don't recognize them as people, in terms of the law, is because that 160 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:27,040 would open the door to laws protecting monkeys. And there would be this snowball effect. And then 161 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:36,720 at the end, we might be threatening the farm industry. So do you agree with that hypothesis 162 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:43,840 from Dr. Jens Vult? Do you think that this is the obstacle that stops us from giving 163 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:53,280 legal protection, legal rights to animals? Or do you think there are other reasons explaining why 164 00:16:53,840 --> 00:17:05,600 we are in 2023, and we haven't gotten to that place of, that good place of, you know, recognizing 165 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:10,240 the sentence of animals, recognizing them as more than property? 166 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:17,120 Yeah, yeah, I was excited to see Dr. Jens fold on your show, just as a side note, when I was in 167 00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:22,000 law school, we had her come and speak in one of our webinars, or not a webinar, a symposium, 168 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:27,520 and she was great. It was very informative for the students there. To your question, is that, 169 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:34,320 do I agree with that hypothesis? Yeah, yes, I do. There might be a lot more woven up into that. But 170 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:39,600 at the highest level, I think there are a lot of people fearful of, you know, if we start granting 171 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,640 rights for animals, where does that slippery slope, as people will call it, lead us? You know, 172 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,840 does that lead us to a place where, and this can spawn 100 ridiculous arguments of, are we going 173 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:54,960 to give the dog the right to vote? And can the cow drive the car? And all sorts of other absurd 174 00:17:54,960 --> 00:18:00,000 things like that. And so, you know, I think it's twofold, and they're kind of one and the same. 175 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,720 And, you know, the argument will often be, it's a slippery slope, you know, we suddenly will have 176 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,360 rights. And how do we accommodate rights for animals when we have all the people in the world? 177 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:14,080 And how does that system work together? But I think the other part of that, that stems from that 178 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:20,560 concern, or alleged concern, is that it goes back to the commercial utility that I talked about. So, 179 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:26,000 if we start granting animals rights, then presumably, we wouldn't slaughter them and 180 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:32,160 shackle them up and keep them in cages and separate them from their calves and those types of 181 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:37,120 things. And so, then the question becomes, well, what do we do? What do people eat? I think the 182 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:43,440 obvious answer is, eat other stuff that doesn't involve animals. But I do agree with that premise. 183 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:48,720 I think that's a lot of what the resistance is, is just, this is the way society is. It's the way 184 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:54,640 society has been created for decades and generations. And, you know, the population 185 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:59,280 is continuing to grow. I don't know if we're over 9 billion now, but it is not slowing down. And so, 186 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:05,200 such a massive population, you know, has a need for commerce and products. And people are so 187 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,640 interwoven with, like, the way things are and how animals fit in that system and are afraid that if 188 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,920 we dramatically change that, what happens to the system? Like, where do people get their commerce? 189 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:22,080 Where do they get their money from? You know, I think that's the concern. I think you need to 190 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:27,600 start with the more base fundamental of, does that matter? Is that enough to trump the rights 191 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:33,600 of any animal? I mean, so, if you start with the animals are in such a place that, like, their 192 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,480 rights can be suppressed if we have commercial concerns, I don't think that's a good premise to 193 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,800 start your argument. I think you start the argument with, if you have an animal that is sentient, 194 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:47,200 that feels suffering, that has relationships and has every bit of capacity that humans do, 195 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:52,000 why start with any sort of prioritization? Why not start with the question of, like, 196 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:57,520 what can we do to not do these things to this animal, just like we would not do these things 197 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:03,200 to a human being? And then you start solving problems from there. So, I think it's premised 198 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:08,320 on a faulty foundation. I think you need to start with the foundation of, like, let's not even 199 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,640 entertain all this other stuff that we can deprioritize them. Let's start with the premise 200 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:18,240 that we just shouldn't be doing it and now figure out how to get away from it versus, like, the 201 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:25,760 alternative. The idea of a dog voting is ridiculous, but it's also so funny and cute. 202 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:38,560 But that begs the question, where do we want to go with this? What is the ideal world in which 203 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:47,680 animal welfare has fulfilled all its goals? What does it look like legally? Because I'm thinking, 204 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:57,200 would that mean a future in which eating animal products is prohibited, is illegal? 205 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,680 So, I don't know if you ever thought about this. 206 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:08,080 Yeah, I mean, I think you, like I said, have to start with the premise of that future society 207 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:13,840 looks like a place where we are not exploiting and using animals, just like we wouldn't do that to a 208 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,880 human being. And so, then you have to kind of build around it. And so, if that's the case, 209 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:24,320 then certainly we would not be eating animals, we would not be consuming them or raising them 210 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,920 in massive warehouses and those types of things. And so, that's the idea. 211 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:35,920 And so, that would all need to go away. It would need to be replaced by something else. Unfortunately, 212 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,560 there are wonderful groups that are working on plant-based alternatives and those types of things 213 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:47,120 to fill that void. And so, I think you can safely assume that the utopian world would not look like 214 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:54,720 animals being exploited. And so, the law sort of operates to some extent, or the society to some 215 00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:00,480 extent operates on the law. So, you would need laws to implement that. You would need laws that say, 216 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:06,960 these are the products that can and can't be created. You cannot slaughter an animal for food. 217 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:13,360 That is, I don't want anybody to be illusioned that we are anywhere remotely close to that, 218 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:18,000 honestly, because I think that sort of tempers some of the urgency that's needed. This, to me, 219 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:24,800 is like 100 years, 200 years in the future, but we need to act now to get to that place. And so, 220 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,960 you know, I don't know what that looks like. You know, for me, it's a matter of just like moving 221 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:34,480 the needle forward day by day, but it's a system where the laws reflect that we should not be using 222 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:40,720 and exploiting animals. So, there are not loopholes that say, you can slaughter a cow if X, Y, and Z 223 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,000 happens, or for these types of products, you can test on this animal. Those are great steps along 224 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,480 the way, but at some point, we just have to say, enough is enough. We're not going to do it. And 225 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:56,080 then our society and our system of laws needs to reflect that. Yeah. Like you said, the current 226 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:06,400 situation is far from that utopia image that we have. And actually, your organization was born 227 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:14,640 with the premise that urgent action needs to be taken for the benefit of animals. And that sense 228 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:22,080 of emergency translates into your actions. Animal partisan is six months old, yet you have accomplished 229 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:30,800 so much and you are very bold. You are even suing the FBI of health institutions. And we will get 230 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:38,480 to this later. So, why are we in a state of emergency? What is the emergency about? 231 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:45,520 Yeah, I think the answer to that question is easy if you look at the suffering. I think a lot of 232 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:52,960 people, this is a bit of a peeve of mine, a lot of people turn away from the suffering. And that's 233 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,840 okay. And I understand that people need to protect themselves. But if you look at the suffering 234 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:03,920 and you recognize that it is happening here and now and there and there and there and there and 235 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:09,280 times a million times a billion, it is happening everywhere every day. I mean, somewhere as we sit 236 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:15,360 here, there is a sheep having her throat slit and there are chickens being pried half alive out of 237 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:20,320 battery cages. It's happening everywhere. And those are not random isolated incidents. And so 238 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:28,000 the urgency comes from that situation. Society exists, society goes on. It is early morning 239 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,640 here for us, but everywhere around the world, the world is operating. People are waking up, 240 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,360 they are having their breakfast, people are going about business and producing products that involve 241 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:42,640 animals and slaughtering animals. And so the machine continues to turn. Society gets bigger 242 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:48,560 and bigger. As I mentioned, the population continues to grow. And I think we need to stare 243 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,880 it in the face and we need to say, this is a dire situation. These animals are suffering. 244 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,640 This isn't just a job. This isn't just like a pastime or something fun that we do or to make 245 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:05,200 ourselves feel good. We need to get into the system and stop the system and stop the suffering and 246 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:11,440 stop the slaughter. And so for me, that's where the urgency comes from. It just comes from recognizing 247 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:17,040 the volume of the world today, the number of people, the number of business processes that 248 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:22,560 exploit animals and just stop and grasp that and think about it for a minute. It's far beyond our 249 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,680 own individual worlds. And then look at the suffering in its face, look at the animals, 250 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,640 watch the videos, expose yourself to the suffering, and then pull all that together in your head and 251 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,920 say, this little scene that I saw here is playing itself out millions and millions of times a day. 252 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:44,240 I think that's where the urgency comes from. And I think it behooves each and every one of us who 253 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:49,440 know about these issues and care about them to act and to act swiftly and to do whatever is in 254 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:56,320 our capacity, whether that's signing a petition, donating, grassroots activism, protests, doing 255 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:02,000 legal actions, policy changes, legislation, whatever it might be, everyone has a role. 256 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:10,080 And I think it's critical that everyone jumps in. Well said. And let's examine those actions that 257 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:17,680 you have taken, the cases, the legal cases you have pursued and you are pursuing right now. 258 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:23,200 And let's start by the animal agriculture. Can you walk us through some of the cases you have 259 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:32,480 fought against the animal agriculture industry? Sure. So this is animal partisan focuses on two 260 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:38,800 areas, animal agriculture and research. We are mostly focused on animal agriculture. The vast 261 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,600 majority of our work has been in this area. And that is largely because that's where the highest 262 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:49,920 amount of suffering is. The number of animals impacted in the system far exceeds other areas. 263 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:55,200 And that's not at all to say that other areas like wildlife law or animals in captivity are 264 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,960 not important. It's just you have to pick and choose where you're going to allocate your time. 265 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,800 And so we have, like you said, only been around for a bit. Animal partisan started late last year. 266 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:11,600 As far as actions, you mentioned our most recent action, which is a lawsuit against the FBI, 267 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,480 which in the United States is the Federal Bureau of Investigation, one of the top law enforcement 268 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:22,880 agencies. This is in partnership with the Vermont Law and Graduate School Farmed Animal Advocacy 269 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,600 Clinic, which is a new clinic at Vermont Law School. So excited to partner with them. My 270 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:33,200 alma mater, they have great things going on there. Plus the Sorensen Law Firm, which specializes in 271 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:39,680 these types of cases. This case is specifically about the Freedom of Information Act, which is a 272 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:45,520 United States law that allows people access to certain records to get a look at the happenings 273 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:52,960 of the government. So animal partisan had requested records from the FBI related to the FBI's 274 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:58,880 participation in various animal agriculture industry conferences. These are conferences 275 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:04,320 put on by the agriculture industry to talk about the business, talk about enhancements, 276 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:10,480 ways to make more money, ways to exchange knowledge. And we wanted to know what was the FBI doing at 277 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,960 these conferences? What is the relationship between this federal law enforcement agency 278 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:21,760 and the animal agriculture industry? Are they talking about how to criminalize animal rights 279 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,400 activism, how to better target animal rights activists? And we wanted to know that information. 280 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,720 And so the FBI denied those requests and we believe those denials were improper. And so we've 281 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,440 since sued over them. We believe that they are obligated under federal law to give us those 282 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,400 records and shed some light on what their role is with the agriculture industry. So we have filed a 283 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:49,840 lawsuit on that. We have a number of cases that I would say kind of classify as private criminal 284 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:55,040 complaints. In the United States, most criminal complaints are brought by prosecutors or law 285 00:28:55,040 --> 00:29:01,360 enforcement officials. I will say that it is very, very, very hard to get a prosecutor or law 286 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:08,400 enforcement official to bring a criminal complaint as it relates to cruelty to animals and agriculture. 287 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,720 It would be easier if it were a dog or a cat, kind of back to our earlier conversation, Ryan. 288 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:18,240 But when you go to them and say, this pig was abused or this chicken was abused, it is incredibly 289 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:24,480 hard to get those prosecutions. And so Animal Partisan has taken to some of these private 290 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:30,240 complaints that allow a private citizen to use different procedures to circumvent some of that 291 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:37,120 unwillingness. And we have criminal complaints filed against a poor company for abusing a pig 292 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:44,000 at slaughter, a Wisconsin meat slaughterhouse for breaking the tail of a steer at slaughter, 293 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,880 against the Pennsylvania Turkey Company for abusing turkeys, being rounded up for 294 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:55,200 slaughter. That one is in partnership with the Animal Equality, based on a great PETA investigation. 295 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:01,760 So we are using a lot of those to sort of apply these state cruelty laws to animals and agriculture 296 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:07,600 and try to circumvent some of this resistance that is really unfounded. So happy to go on more, 297 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,280 but I would say those are some of the kind of primary cases and the stuff going on right now. 298 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:21,760 Yes. Before that, I want to go back to the FBI case. Is it even legal for the FBI to accept an 299 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:28,080 invitation from the agriculture industry to one of their conference? I feel like this should be 300 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:34,480 a nonpartisan institution. So, yeah. 301 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,680 Yeah. So I don't think there's anything illegal about it. I think what you're highlighting though 302 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:46,560 demonstrates sort of the state of society. The private animal agriculture industry gets so much 303 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,680 support from the government, both state and federal. And so the government is geared towards 304 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:58,000 supporting these industries. I mean, the act of the government is not just a government, 305 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,880 but it's a state of animal product consumption is so deeply woven into our society that it is 306 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:08,160 taken apart of the government. So if you look at places like the USDA, the Department of Agriculture, 307 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:15,360 there are huge partnerships going on between the USDA, state agriculture agencies, and private 308 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:20,800 industry actors. We are funneling millions and billions of dollars in subsidies to the agriculture 309 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:26,160 industry. And so it's not, we don't live in a situation, unfortunately, where the government 310 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:31,440 should be a nonpartisan entity that should not be collaborating. Everywhere you look, the government 311 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,240 is collaborating with the animal agriculture industry. And in some cases, suppressing the 312 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,840 descent of others who are not favorable of animal agriculture. So it's really not a surprise that 313 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:49,040 the FBI is engaged with that industry. You can go back through, there's plenty of cases and actions 314 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:54,240 over the last two, three decades where the FBI has targeted animal rights activists. They've gone to 315 00:31:54,240 --> 00:32:01,440 people's homes, they pulled pigs out of sanctuaries that were allegedly stolen from factory farms by 316 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:06,240 direct action everywhere and other groups like that. And so this is not a new thing. You would 317 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:11,280 think it should be nonpartisan, but unfortunately, it's not. We live in a world where government is 318 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,520 in bed with the agriculture industry, and that's part of the uphill climb that we have to fight. 319 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:25,680 I feel like there are more urgent matters than going after pigs in sanctuaries for the FBI. 320 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:37,200 Do we know if politicians are being lobbied and supported financially by the agriculture industry? 321 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:44,880 Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, there are the ties between the political world and the agriculture 322 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:50,880 industry are tremendous. I mean, you can look at some of the pieces of legislation that get proposed 323 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:56,320 and the roots of those, where they come from, and even people getting on the floor of the house and 324 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,960 talking about, I was approached by XYZ farmer in my community, and that's where this came from. I 325 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,240 mean, we've had, I would say the current one is, there's a federal, what's called the EATS Act, 326 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:12,400 which is a response to Proposition 12 and other laws that were prohibiting confinement of animals 327 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:18,720 in cruel conditions. That is coming from agriculture interests. There are what's called ag-gag laws in 328 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,600 the United States, which are intended to prevent activists from going into a farm and video 329 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:29,600 recording or audio recording. Those are coming from agriculture interests. And so absolutely, 330 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,840 there are tight connections between the animal agriculture industry and politicians, 331 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:40,000 and that is often manifested in laws and bills and attempts to do things or attempts to influence 332 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:49,200 the USDA. So yes, that is definitely the case. So when I hear vegans talk about the agricultural 333 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:56,560 lobby, the animal industry lobby being this powerful, big, bad institution, organization, 334 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:04,160 they write about that. This is not just, what's the word, conspiracy theory. 335 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:12,560 No, not at all. I mean, I would be surprised that anyone would say that. I mean, the agriculture 336 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:18,560 industry is huge. I mean, think of the amount of meat and animal products that are sold in this 337 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:24,160 country. I mean, you can go to any grocery store and walk down the meat aisles and walk down any 338 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,480 aisle, the dairy aisle, and it's right there in your face. And there are new products every day, 339 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,200 and they fly off the shelves. And every one of those products is X number of dollars that is 340 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:38,160 going somewhere. And the amount of dollars that are woven into that industry are massive. And 341 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:44,720 these industries have trade organizations that they sit on top and say, we're the national pork 342 00:34:44,720 --> 00:34:50,640 board. We want to represent all of America's pork producers or the egg board or whatever the case 343 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:56,560 might be. And they pool resources to some extent. They say, look, we have farmers all across the 344 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,360 country. We want to have an organization that represents all their interests. They are, in many 345 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,840 cases, funded by the member farmers. They're funded by the government. The government has things 346 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:11,200 called checkoff programs where they're channeling money to these associations to promote pork and 347 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:17,440 do certain things. And so, no, it is absolutely the case that these associations and these industries, 348 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:23,440 they wield tremendous power. They wield political power. They wield financial power. That's just a 349 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,880 reality of the world we live in. I think denying that puts you at a disadvantage. I think you have 350 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:34,080 to accept it and say, these are the cards that are dealt. This is the mountain that we're up against. 351 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:40,080 And then look at it and figure out how you can pick it apart. What are the laws that create this 352 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:45,040 checkoff program? What can this association do? How are they allowed to spend their money? What 353 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,360 can they say and not say? And that's where you start to get your power and you start to see, 354 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,040 okay, this is the way it is, but I'm going to look at every one of those laws and I'm going to look 355 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,120 at their requirements. I'm going to figure out what can they do? What can they not do? And where 356 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:02,160 can I find something that they're doing that they should not do and bring that to attention? File a 357 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:07,840 lawsuit, file litigation, expose it. That's where your power comes from by facing sort of the issues 358 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,120 that are out there. It's the same as what I mentioned with the suffering. You just have to 359 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,440 look at it in the face and you have to empower yourself and say, this is what I'm dealing with. 360 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:21,520 Now, where can I go and what can I do to stop it? I can forgive the consumers for 361 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:27,120 supporting this industry, consuming animal products. You can blame it on culture. You can blame it on 362 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:35,040 cognitive dissonance and such, but the executives, the people running those industries, 363 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:43,440 that I don't understand. Do you know if they are aware of the suffering they are causing? 364 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:53,520 Yeah, I mean, I don't think you can not be aware. I mean, if you are an executive for a company that 365 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:59,440 slaughters animals for a business, even if you are so far removed that you're not a part of the 366 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,720 business every day, there is some point where you've seen the suffering. You've seen or you've 367 00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:11,120 heard the screams of the pigs as they come in on the trucks or you've watched a cow that's been 368 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:16,800 stunned improperly stagger and fall down. There's no excuse for not knowing. I mean, that's the 369 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,360 business and I think we have to acknowledge that the people that run these companies know that 370 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,560 they're suffering. I think you probably get a lot of cognitive dissonance where these people think 371 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:33,120 that animals are lesser and they don't have the capacity to suffer. Whatever I've just heard, 372 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,360 the screams from the pigs, that's not as bad as the screams of a child or some human being. 373 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,240 I think a lot of people have convinced themselves that these animals are more like widgets or 374 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:47,440 commodities and that they don't have the capacity to feel and suffer like we do. That's probably 375 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:53,120 what helps people get by. I think other people probably know and they acknowledge the suffering, 376 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,200 but they just don't care because that's the business that they're in. They want to produce 377 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:02,240 money. They might label it as they want to feed America and be patriotic or whatever the case 378 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:08,080 might be. I don't think there's any of them that don't recognize that there's suffering happening. 379 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:14,240 Some of them may obscure it behind, oh, it's not as bad as I think it is, but there's money involved 380 00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:20,160 and this is a livelihood for people. It gets back to the equation of money and the eyes of many 381 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:25,200 weighs more than the suffering of a living conscious being. That's again, the unfortunate 382 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,480 reality of the world we live in. Let's get back to David. David, you're a 383 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:37,760 great speaker. Let's get back to those legal cases. What are some of the victories you've had against 384 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:44,720 this industry on the court? Sure. Like you said, we've only been around for a short while. 385 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:53,520 I will say even though in that short time, we already have multiple cases scheduled for trial. 386 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,360 I can't say too much on one of them, but on our poor case, we have trial scheduled later this fall 387 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:05,520 where an actual corporation has been charged with animal cruelty. That doesn't happen. In many cases, 388 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:11,440 the cases where cruelty is charged, it might be an individual person is charged, but a corporate 389 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:17,920 entity can be charged with cruelty for conduct that happens beneath the purview of that corporation. 390 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:24,240 We have a trial scheduled. I think the fact that we have a trial scheduled, we had a judge review 391 00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:28,400 our complaint and realized that there's probably enough here to go forward and argue whether or 392 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,480 not cruelty happened. That's significant. We actually have two of those. One of those I can't 393 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:37,760 really get into, but there are two trials scheduled for corporations charged with animal cruelty for 394 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:43,600 cruelty to animals and agriculture. That is huge. That just doesn't happen. In decades and decades, 395 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,240 there have probably only been a handful of corporations charged, much less convicted. 396 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:54,640 I would say that's been a victory. We've had a lot of wonderful partnerships in our short time. 397 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,200 I mentioned Vermont Law School. We're partnering with Animal Equality on things. We've got a lot of 398 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:05,040 other great partnerships building. We've got a lot of litigation ideas in development, 399 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,840 cases that will be filed in the next two, three, four, five, six months that will be going out. 400 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:15,920 Then one of the other things I would say has been a significant achievement is that we spend a lot 401 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:21,760 of time trying to develop the field of animal law to help law students interested in this field 402 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:27,280 grow to help attorneys who may be practicing in other fields get experience. I think since we've 403 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:33,200 been founded, we've helped about 17 law students and eight attorneys get experience in this field. 404 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:38,480 They've worked on projects for us. They provided invaluable support to animal partisan. At the same 405 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:44,240 time, many of them have gotten coaching, mentorship, support, exposure to how to practice in this field. 406 00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:48,800 That is just going to grow the movement. The more people out there that know and care about these 407 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:54,960 issues and can deal with them legally, the better. I would say the trials we have scheduled, we did 408 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,920 get a conviction for animal cruelty for an individual that kicked a lamb in the face during 409 00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:04,800 slaughter. That was early on, so that conviction has happened. We've gotten some media coverage of 410 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:11,520 our cases in local media where these slaughterhouses exist. That is helpful even beyond the criminal 411 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:17,360 justice system for people who read these papers and these news sources to just see how they're 412 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:22,080 doing in their community. That in many cases is more profound than anything else. Those would be 413 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:28,960 some of the important things I would highlight. You said how you decided to focus on agriculture 414 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:37,040 but also the research industry. What about the research industry? What is happening right now 415 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:47,040 and what are you pursuing in terms of legal cases? Absolutely. Some of the research that we do is 416 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:54,400 overlocked. There was a recent study that came out that speculated on the number of animals in 417 00:41:54,400 --> 00:42:00,880 research of being over 100 million. It is not an insubstantial amount of animals. Granted, when you 418 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:06,160 look at animals in agriculture, we're talking eight or nine billion chickens every year. The 419 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,760 numbers are smaller but it is not an insubstantial amount of animals. They are suffering in many 420 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:19,440 cases in different ways. They are certainly kept in confinement, small spaces. I was just watching a 421 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:26,000 video before this podcast of some sheep at a lactation experiment in upstate New York that were 422 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:32,880 confined to probably four foot by six foot little metal kennels in a concrete room. I can compare 423 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:38,560 that of the sheep that we live with who are roaming the pastures all day, forging in the grass, 424 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:44,000 and so they are suffering in similar ways like that where they are being prohibited from 425 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:49,600 expressing normal behaviors. They are being subjected to experiments. They are being 426 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:56,480 drugged, strapped into machines, bred and kept in captivity, and then killed to have their brains 427 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:01,360 dissected, their blood drawn. They are suffering in similar ways. They are suffering in different 428 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:07,120 ways in many cases and not a small number of animals. Animal partisanship is a very common 429 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:12,000 thing in our community and in our communities. We have been very active in this area. We have 430 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,360 been working with the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of 431 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:20,240 Agriculture to get information about what is happening in the animals. Animal partisan, this 432 00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:26,800 is a smaller focus area for us but a lot of our early work here has been public records work to 433 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,600 try to gain transparency into what is happening, to try to find information about what are these 434 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:37,040 studies, what animals are being used. We have been on the search for videos of these experiments to 435 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,520 a number of those videos to try to show people what is happening to animals behind the scenes. 436 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,840 Public records work has been some of that. We did file a lawsuit early against a university. 437 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:53,360 That case has since ended for various reasons but we are still focused on public records work, 438 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:58,160 getting those records, potentially litigating some issues where records have been denied just 439 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:05,440 like the FBI did. I would say the other area that is of interest for us is back to the state cruelty 440 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:11,680 laws. We talked about how hard it is to apply cruelty laws to animals in agriculture. The same 441 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:18,160 applies to animals in research but we are developing some case ideas to try to argue in various states 442 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:23,440 that conduct committed to animals in research was cruelty and should be punished criminally. 443 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,800 I cannot get into too much but I would say we probably have two scenarios where we are 444 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:34,000 not far off from filing private criminal complaints related to animal research to try to 445 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:39,200 set some precedent because you are in a laboratory and you have a lab coat. It does not mean that 446 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,640 certain things that you might do to an animal are not cruelty and we want to use the legal system 447 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:49,600 to demonstrate that. We have some cases lined up to try to explore that a little bit further. 448 00:44:50,480 --> 00:45:00,000 What do you say to people who claim that the farm industry is one thing but research is something 449 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:09,280 else entirely. We are developing drugs against cancer. We need to do those tests on animals. 450 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,600 Do you think they are right? Is it justified suffering? 451 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,680 I do not think there is much difference to be honest with you. I think you have to start with 452 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:28,320 the base question I asked earlier which is should we be doing this or should we just accept at face 453 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:34,400 value that we should not do this to another being that is conscious and can suffer. I do not think 454 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:40,080 you get into the justification like this is food and this is a drug. I think many people would say 455 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:44,960 food is more important. You have a lot of poverty and starvation in this world and some would say 456 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:50,800 food is more important than drug testing or pain medication or things like that. I think you can 457 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,440 argue the relative importance of either one but I think you come back to the same conclusion and 458 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:02,240 say regardless of which one you choose are either of them worth exposing an unwilling conscious 459 00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:07,600 sentient suffering being to these certain things. Then you have to stack that up with the alternatives. 460 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,760 It is the same in the food space where you have plant-based alternatives and those types of 461 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:17,360 things. There are alternatives to animal research and I am not going to claim to be the expert and 462 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,920 there are plenty of groups doing good work in this space but it is not like a situation where we have 463 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,800 no alternatives and it is just like all or nothing. I would argue that even if it were all or nothing, 464 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,280 we still should not be doing it but it is kind of the same situation. You should not be doing it to 465 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:37,280 begin with and there are alternatives and people need to be looking for ways to move out of that 466 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:42,800 space. I think there are some that are doing that but there is just far too much research happening. 467 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,320 There is money woven into that as well. If you explore the grants and if you explore 468 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:53,520 the funding, there are people who are making their careers doing research that is funded by the 469 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:59,200 government that has given them money to do a research experiment that has been done before 470 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:04,320 and has been done before. People are making their livelihood over this. I do not think in short it 471 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:09,120 is that much of a different question. I think you start with the should we be doing this to begin 472 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,720 with and then you look at the alternatives and I think you have to acknowledge that 473 00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:15,280 probably not something we should do. We should be moving away from it. 474 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:23,520 Yes, let me just mention that it is not always the noble image that is sold to us. Like you said, 475 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:31,280 there is economic interest behind it. Let us start with cosmetics. I think you do not need to test 476 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:41,760 your cosmetics on animals. Let us at least for a minimum agree on that. You walked us through 477 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:50,960 some of your current and future cases. I want to know what can we do to support your mission, 478 00:47:50,960 --> 00:48:00,160 to support what you are doing and to have more victories against this industry to make it more 479 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:07,680 accountable for its horrendous behavior and exploitation toward animals. 480 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:17,920 Yes, I think one, support animal partisan but just support the cause in general. There are so many 481 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,560 good groups that are doing this and I think the first thing I would say is just commit to doing 482 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:27,760 something, whatever that is. I love support for animal partisan. I can talk about that in a minute, 483 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:34,080 but just commit to doing something. Recognize that this is a problem and we each have 24 hours in the 484 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:39,440 day and many of those hours are consumed by scrolling through social media, watching memes 485 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:44,400 or videos or things like that that are not meaningful or not impactful. We each have the 486 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:50,320 capacity to do something. That could be anything. Literally, get on your computer, search for a 487 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:56,240 petition, go walk dogs at the shelter, whatever the case might be. Call your congressperson. 488 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,920 Do whatever you want to do. The first thing I would say is do something. We are not in a situation 489 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,880 where we can just say, other people have it, other people have got it covered. The individual 490 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:12,160 people that step up and take action is what is needed. We need masses of people that are going 491 00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:18,720 to do that. I should give a plug. We often forget about the grassroots activists, the people out 492 00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:23,440 doing protests or disruptions or things like that. If that is your thing, look for groups in your 493 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:29,120 area. Those groups are strengthened by more people out in the streets doing things. I would 494 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:33,680 start with the premise of do something, whatever that is, and give your time and give your passion. 495 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:39,760 Then second is, as far as Animal Partisan, we are a brand new organization. We would love any 496 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:45,040 support that we can get. We are very small. The intent is to be lean and tenacious like you 497 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:50,480 mentioned earlier. You can find Animal Partisan on Instagram. You can like the Instagram page. 498 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:55,120 We are on Facebook. We are on LinkedIn. Any kind of support just through liking the page. 499 00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:00,640 Donations are obviously welcome as well. You can go on animalpartisan.org and there is a support 500 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:07,280 tab. You can sign up for an email list. You can donate. You can spread the word. I work with so 501 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,520 many other wonderful groups and I cannot help but plug them as well. There are plenty of other 502 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:19,520 groups doing just as good work. Support them as well. I think my message would be do something, 503 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:25,600 take your time, use it for something good. If it is just, I do not have much time, then support 504 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:30,320 the groups that do have the time and do have the passion. Go on social media, like them, follow 505 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:37,120 them, comment, subscribe. Fund, support, whatever you can do to support these groups would be very 506 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:43,760 invaluable and we would appreciate it. It feels amazing to be an early supporter of an initiative, 507 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:55,040 of an organization, of anything. It feels exciting. You are the first wave and you are looking at this 508 00:50:55,040 --> 00:51:00,640 organization and all its potential. I think there is something really exciting about it. 509 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:08,880 But people will find links to your organization website but also to the donation page in the 510 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:17,600 description below. Fantastic. I think you are right. I hesitate to use the word exciting because 511 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:22,240 I would rather not be doing this work but we have to do it because the animals are suffering. 512 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:29,280 I think it speaks to the opportunities to do something. It is not like you just look at this 513 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:34,400 one legal theory and that is all you can do. No, it is every day. You can look at information, 514 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:39,040 search for records, find out what the businesses are doing and explore all of these new legal 515 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:45,440 theories and strategies. There is a sea of opportunity out there and that part is exciting. 516 00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:52,720 Where are the levers that we can pull to reduce suffering and animal exploitation, challenge these 517 00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:57,120 industries for what we are doing? There most certainly is excitement in that. It is what keeps 518 00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:03,760 me going every day. I think whatever we do is meaningful. Whatever we can do to impede the 519 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:08,160 tide of what is being done to animals is meaningful. I appreciate the support. 520 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:19,360 You know about it, this misanthropic sentiment in the vegan community and looking at other people 521 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:28,320 making a difference and working hard for the cause of animal welfare just makes me have 522 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:40,000 a new appreciation for humanity. I think we are not all bad. There are some very good people among 523 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:48,400 us and you are part of them. Did you have anything more to add before we end this conversation? 524 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:54,880 We do not. You have covered a lot of ground and I sincerely appreciate it. Like I said at the start, 525 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:59,280 I would give a plug to you Ryan. I think what you are doing is a great example of what I just 526 00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:04,720 talked about. You are doing something. You said at some point this is an issue. I have the capacity 527 00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:10,080 to do this. You are clearly doing a wonderful job. Take a page for listeners and viewers. Take a 528 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:15,600 page from Ryan's playbook and just do something. Whatever it is, whatever skills you have, 529 00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:22,880 put them to use. I do not have anything more. I think my last plug would be there is so much 530 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:28,240 suffering in this world. Do not for a minute be appeased and think that the new plant-based burger 531 00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:33,600 came out and everything is good. No. If you look for it, it is out there. We have limited time on 532 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:38,240 this planet. I think we just need to put our heads down and turn away. Whatever we can do to help, 533 00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:43,520 do it. You will feel more fulfilled. You will reduce suffering. I think it takes all of us 534 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,560 and I appreciate the opportunity and I appreciate all the great questions. 535 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:54,080 Of course. Thank you so much William for your work and for having accepted my invitation and 536 00:53:54,640 --> 00:54:02,160 for having taken the time to answer my questions. Thank you everyone for listening. More people 537 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:08,960 deserve to know about animal partisan and their effective work. Make sure to share this episode 538 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:16,320 with family and friends. Next week, we are continuing the veteran vegan series with Chris. 539 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:22,480 Chris is a teacher by profession and he became vegan for health reasons. In my conversation 540 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:30,160 with Chris, we talk a lot about food and strategies to advocate for veganism. And Chris is very good 541 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:37,760 at that. I love his approach. Subscribe now and don't miss out on this episode. Finally, you can 542 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:45,280 always reach me on Instagram at veganreportpodcast. Thank you again for listening. Take care and see 543 00:54:45,280 --> 00:55:12,080 you next Tuesday.