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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.

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If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure

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where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with

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passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special

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contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Today we are going

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to talk about animal welfare in Vietnam. Vietnam is a land gifted with beautiful scenery, a rich

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culture and warm people, but it is also a country plagued by the dog and cat meat trade, bad vet

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care and the growing consumption of animal products. To discuss this topic, I have with me

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Catherine Besh, a lifelong animal lover and animal advocate. Kat left the US in 2007 and she gave up

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her life riding horses and managing stables in Virginia. Since graduating from Washington

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State University with a bachelor's degree in international politics and a master in disaster

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management focused on animals in disaster, and she wrote about that. I will leave a link to one of

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her articles in the description below. Kat has lived in several countries around the world,

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working as an English teacher and traveling in Europe, Asia and South America. Kat started

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Vietnam Animal Aid in 2013. It is Vietnam's first and only animal sanctuary. In 2016, she opened

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the first non-profit international vet clinic in Vietnam, which ran for several years before

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closing due to lack of funding. But the vet project will be reopening in the not so distant future

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as a mobile vet clinic and anti-species vet training program. Her work in rescue and vegan

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advocacy on the ground in Vietnam and Europe has given her a first-hand understanding of the

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political, cultural and economic context of animal rights in the global South. Thank you very much,

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Kat, for being a guest on this podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Let's dive right in.

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My first question for you is what circumstances led you to live in Vietnam? It's something that

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puzzles me a bit. Could you explain? Yeah, it's sort of a strange story. I had no intent. This

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was all a totally unintended experience to run an animal rescue in Vietnam. Basically, Vietnam is

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something I've always grown up with, though. My dad was a Marine officer in Vietnam who was shot in

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1966. He and my mother came back in 1971 to 1973. I'm actually a legacy in Vietnam. This is the

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country I've known about since I was born. My dad used his time in the CIA, my mom in the U.S.

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embassy, they use it as a shopping trip, essentially, because the government has to bring home all your

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household goods. My house was surrounded by Vietnamese furniture, Vietnamese art, Vietnamese

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ceramics, Vietnamese everything. I was the four-year-old who could find Vietnam on a map.

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It's just always been like that. My parents are quite older, as parents, quite a bit older.

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I kind of, they were getting older and I had left Mongolia the year before. It was horribly cold,

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if you're wondering. It's the coldest capital city in the world, Ulaanbaatar. I was like,

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you know what? I need some sunshine. This is a time in my parents' life where I want them to see

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what had happened to the country. They loved so much. I wanted to kind of bring that experience

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to them before they died. We're not real close as a family, but I thought this was something that

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would bring that to us. I mean, it didn't really work exactly, but I came and I fell in love with

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the place. I planned to stay only six months. I was doing my master's degree in disaster management

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online. I could kind of be anywhere in the world and I really wanted to follow international

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disasters. But Vietnam to me, it wasn't volcanoes and earthquakes, but we have seasonal flooding.

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I kind of took that as, okay, well, this is my disaster to write about. I got typhoons and

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flooding. I'm kind of looking at how that works in the developing world and how Global South.

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And that's just kind of what kept me here initially was that I was able to kind of

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sustain myself with my master's degree and some freelance writing while I was here. And then poof,

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I ended up with an animal rescue for the past decade and I never left.

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Yeah. Oops.

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I mean, the whole story is amazing. I did not realize how profound your relationship with

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Vietnam was. My whole life. Yeah. You have this childhood link with the country. Do you speak

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Vietnamese? My Vietnamese remains bad. Surprisingly bad considering the amount of time I've been here,

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whereas I could go to Italy for two weeks and speak better Vietnamese or speak better Italian

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than I speak Vietnamese after a decade. It's just one of those languages that requires quite a bit

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more effort than others and I've been rather busy. But yeah, I do speak Vietnamese. I, in fact,

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I say this in Vietnamese all the time. Khoi noi, thang Viet luon luon, yung ma kong hiu,

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which means I speak Vietnamese all the time. I just can't understand.

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Because people think it's a small country. I mean, if you really look at the country, it's

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actually rather large and there's a lot of dialects within there and they change significantly from

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province to province. And so it's not just as easy as like learning some words. It's like you've got

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to really understand the accents and that can be quite difficult. Yeah. But no, I'll admit,

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I haven't spent enough time fixing it. Well, that's a good segue to my next question.

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For someone who doesn't know much about Vietnam, how would you describe the place?

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Gorgeous. It's gorgeous. It's a really beautiful and extremely green country. And the food as a

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vegan is, in my opinion, the best in the world. I haven't been to some countries that I know are

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known for their vegan food like Ethiopia as well. But I can guarantee you that we have

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our, you know, we're pretty damn good here. So eating is definitely not a problem. I would say

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Vietnam is full of extremely friendly people. They call Thailand the land of smiles, which I think is

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crap. I don't think anybody smiles there. You come to Vietnam and you can see that they're just like

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a really friendly, outgoing sort of people. I think it's just warm. They're generally just really

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warm. I don't know. It's kind of, it's diverse. It's a very diverse country and people don't

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really give it that much credit for being so. I mean, we have four climate zones in the country.

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So that alone should show you that there is quite a bit of diversity. You know, like in the North,

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it's typhoon season, for example, you know, and we won't get ours until October. And like, you know,

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it just kind of varies throughout the year. So yeah, I think the diversity, the mountains,

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everything are just really different, but it is very beautiful country. And it never,

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I never stopped being surprised. You know, I think there's always more to discover,

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just getting on my motorbike and driving into the mountains. And I always feel

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a sense of wonder here. There's no escape from that. Yeah. I know. Because one of my very best

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friend, her boyfriend is Vietnamese and she recently visited Vietnam and she showed me

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some of the pictures of the place. And I was like, I need to visit this place. It's so stunning.

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It's stunning. There are beaches, there are the food, like you said, looks so yummy. Yeah.

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And the weather. We don't suffer for food. I can tell you that. Yeah. I mean, like,

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I don't want to paint a perfect picture though. Okay. Let me, let me, let me wipe the shine off

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what I just said real fast. Okay. It is a single party state with an, not an independent judiciary.

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It is highly oppressive to its own citizens. It is heavily censored. There are a lot of things. If

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you were a Vietnamese citizen, you are not living a great life in all cases. I mean, they are

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considered one of the happiest people in the world though, which is interesting. But as far as like

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having any, any, any ability to be part of the democratic process, that's not really a thing.

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It's very rare to be, to have anybody involved in the political situation here. That's not like

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a, already a suit. I call them suits, you know, the people, the people in suits, you know. So it's not

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particularly egalitarian in a lot of ways. I think women, you know, domestic violence is prevalent. I

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think animal abuse obviously is something that's a problem or I wouldn't be doing this. I think

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there's a lot of things that are negative about the traffic can be horrible. The honking is annoying.

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The karaoke makes me want to kill myself. There, you know, like I love to hate Vietnam and I hate

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to love it. It is my home in every possible sense, but it's not, it's not all shiny and pretty. I'm

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not going to, I'm not going to lie about that. I live a parallel existence as a foreigner in many

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ways, because we're kind of to Vietnam, we're a bit of like walking ATMs being that we have a lot

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of cash to input as foreigners into the system. I have a, I have a fully foreign owned business license.

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So there, there's a lot of things that give me privileges that I wouldn't have otherwise if I

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were actually from here. So I don't, I, it's important to recognize the bad with the good.

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Yes. Well, you know, I had the view of a tourist, basically someone who was, you know,

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planning my vacation and about Vietnam, but you know, even when I travel and I have traveled in

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many places around the world, I have every time witnessed a lot of displays of animal cruelty.

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Sure. Everywhere in the world. Yeah. Yeah.

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Exotic animals on leashes in South America. I visited Greece and I was...

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Oh, Greece is awful. Yeah. I was just there two weeks ago. I mean, the cats on the streets.

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I was shocked by the number of dogs just in Athens, their capital city, welcoming you every time you

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went on a stroll. And yeah, Turkey and the situation there. You know, I was thinking

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about my time in Turkey and with the number of cats outside, I wonder how are the birds doing there?

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You know, right. Not great. Probably not great. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'd say the same for

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Greece. I mean, those are probably... Italy is the same population, a high population of domestic

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cats. People are not sterilizing them. I mean, there are a lot of organizations in Greece,

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at least, because they've got a lot more help because they're in that part of Europe,

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but... And they have a lot of tourists and they have, you know, still in spite of all of Greece's

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economic problems, they still have a lot of people that are putting money into those projects,

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including one of our staff, our director of operations. She lives in Greece and she does TNR,

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trap, neuter, release of cats. And so she's trying to help with getting that population down, but

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it's an endless cycle and there's not a lot... I mean, it's just so much work to keep that population

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down. And I believe those initiatives are the exception and not the rule. Yes. Yes, absolutely.

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Because there's still so many people... I was out trapping with her. I love cat trapping. I used to

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do it in Alabama and when I was living there. And it's frustrating because a lot of people think

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that it's unnatural to sterilize animals. They still have that very traditional and conservative

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mindset that it's just like, we shouldn't sterilize animals because we are taking away their natural

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right to give birth. We try to explain to them that we're trying to prevent suffering and whatever.

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And this just happened, I guess, in the past couple of weeks here as well, trying to sterilize a dog.

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And the guy was like, no, we just want her to have puppies again and again and again. And I give the

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puppies to my friend. And so we weren't allowed to... Free sterilization, we weren't allowed to do it.

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He's not interested in the wellbeing of the animal. He's interested in making sure that he is

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capitalizing upon another's reproductive system, just like you would in say the dairy industry or

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any other industry, breeding horses, for example, or breeding dogs. It doesn't really matter. It's

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all kind of part of the same vein of exploitation. Well, every time I witnessed those displays of

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cruelty toward animals or just bad, just neglect of the animal population,

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when we're talking about, like you said, cats or dogs, what frustrated me the most was the feeling

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of being powerless. I'm not my country. I don't understand this country. I don't know how to help

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those animals. And even if I had the will to do so, I can't. I'm going to leave in a few days.

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This is an impossible situation. So I just have to close my eyes, to look away, to just be in denial.

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It's hard. It's really hard. I live in a tourist town. It's the same thing. We get all these

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messages from people saying, I found this kitten on the side of the road. I'm leaving tomorrow.

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What can you take the kitten? No. Well, I mean, we can't because you're one of nine this week

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that have sent me that message. And I know you feel powerless and helpless and whatever, but like,

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I don't own an island to put all these cats on. Let's get this straight. There is just no place

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for them to go. And you have to get used to the idea that you can't help everybody. And I think

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that's one of the worst parts of being a compassionate and empathetic person is being able to close your

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eyes and say, I understand the big picture. I'm doing everything I can on a daily basis,

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particularly as vegans, to eliminate my part in exploitation, torture and murder. And that's

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bigger than what everybody else around here is doing. So I kind of, you can't help every single

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individual. There's not the resources or the homes or the space or the veterinarians. And it just

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isn't like that. I mean, I can say that after 10 years running a rescue, but ultimately it is what

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led me to run a rescue, this idea of like, I'm not going to stand for this. I won't stand for this.

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I will do something. I am somebody who can do something. Well, I want to ask you about that.

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Because contrary to me or others who have visited other countries or stayed there and

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did nothing about animal suffering, you did something. And I want to know, how did it start?

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How did the feelings of wanting to do something translated into actions?

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Yeah. Coffee. Yeah. Coffee. It's extremely strong here. This stuff's like jet fuel. Yeah, no,

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I mean, it really is. If you just go to your local Asian market, pick up some Vietnamese coffee,

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and you won't even have to ask that question. This stuff is like, I don't know, it's stronger

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than your average cocaine. Yeah. It really messes with your idea of like, it makes you feel like a

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superhero. It's a little bit like, yeah, it makes you feel like you can fly a little bit and start

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an animal rescue. And for that, I deeply regret that. But no, I mean, at the time, I'd been here

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six months. I guess I'd been here a year before, almost a year before I started the organization.

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I lived in one city for six months, and then I came to Hoi An for six months. And I had met some

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people. I met another girl who was willing to start a rescue with me. I was like, we've got to

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do something. She had like four cats at the time. And people kept giving me animals. So I ended up

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with all these animals. And I'm just like, because I'm just somebody who's always taking care of

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animals. I used to work with horses for 20 years. And then now I've got this whole thing going on.

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This is just what I do. I'm just the person that people give animals to. I've always been like that,

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even when I was just a little kid. And so I kind of had this moment. There was this dog,

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Blair, who's still with us now. And she was on the side of the road. And she was mostly bald.

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And she just was laying there. And I have this picture of her that I'll never forget. And she

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was terrified. And I just was like, you know what? No, no, not today. I'm done. I'm done. I'm done

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looking at this stuff and driving by. I can't do this anymore. And so the reason I started the

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organization was like, I realized that I couldn't afford a vet bill like that. Like, this was going

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to be out of control. And we needed to have some sort of public funding for this. So I took her to

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the vet. She was there for like a week, paid the vet bill. And then within the next couple of weeks,

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we put the organization on Facebook. And we kind of got started. And then we had a fundraising

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party and got some money. And just kind of it went from there. I had no idea how far it would go.

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I had no clue that it would end up just being we would be bombarded with animals over the next

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couple of years, particularly because we were the only people in the area doing anything.

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Central Vietnam, there was one foreign owned rescue in Saigon. But there was still none in

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Hanoi. And there was none in central Vietnam. And we were just like, we were it. And so we just

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ended up being bombarded with animals, most of them were dying anyway, and the vets were absolute

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garbage. And so they couldn't help us much. I luckily had worked with vets by working with horses,

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you know, working with horses is not the same saving kittens, by the way. I mean, the principles

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are kind of the same. But you essentially have to become a pharmacist slash drug lord, you've got to

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be able to you've got to be able to and we can get all of our we can get everything over the counter

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here. You don't have to have a prescription for anything. So we can get our antibiotics. And as

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long as you've got a formulary for you know, your dosages and can Google it. Basically, I was a

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Google vet. Because like, there's a lot of things that the veterinarian knew nothing about nothing.

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No, it wasn't that he knew nothing. It's that he made up shit. And that made it much, much worse. So

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it was it was horrendous. So within the first year, I was like, we've got to start our own vet project.

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Because it was just so bad. Well, let's start first about the state of animal welfare in Vietnam.

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You know, the reason why you felt like you needed to create your organization.

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So you talked about the care in the health care of animals. Why are the vets in Vietnam

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not skilled to deal with the current situation or with anything that has to do with, you know,

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healthcare to animals? Right. So I mean, the connection, we can't ever eliminate that connection

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between the public health care system and the veterinary industry. Right. People like to divorce

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the two and they think they're completely separate. And I think that's just ridiculous. We're doing

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that to our own detriment. So we're like 98th in the world and public health care. It's not a good

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place to be. It's not a great ranking. Just the general health care of the humans in this country

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is pretty bad. So when we talk about like being able to have animals get decent health care,

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you're starting from a horrible system that simply like they just don't understand pharmacology. They

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just don't. I mean, they'll get we have the second highest antibiotic resistance in the world. It's

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not, I mean, they'll give antibiotics out like TikToks. I mean, like it's, there's just the

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basic medicine. For people who don't know what it is. Great. So antibiotic resistance is basically,

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you know, there's all these bacteria that are becoming used to all the antibiotics that we're

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giving them. And so they evolve. They evolve to be resistant to them. And if you keep giving

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antibiotics for all these bacteria, what happens is that you're just going to end up with antibiotic

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resistance. And that becomes a huge problem for hospitals and for people and for animals and the

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entire ecosystem for that matter. It's not limited to just humans and doggies and kitties. It goes

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far beyond that. Particularly when we're talking about farmed animals and going into the food

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system and all of that. I mean, it's very, very dangerous. You know, that means if you hurt yourself,

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and it's infected, we can't cure that. Normal treatment will not have any effects because the

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bacteria is causing the infection are resistant to any kind of drugs we have. It's terrifying.

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It is absolutely, it's absolutely apocalyptic. You know, people aren't realizing that. And I mean,

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predominantly the over antibiotic use is in the animal agriculture industries. So, I mean, we do

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it with people here too, but the animals and they're all getting it way more than the people are

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even. And of course, that just creates this massive antibiotic resistant, like playground in farms and

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things like that. So, but it's the only way people know how to cure anything because the conditions

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are all really dirty. So, basic sanitation is just something they don't understand. When we had our

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vet clinic, and so eventually what happened was we had to open our own vet clinic. It was just a

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matter of like time. I mean, I saw a vet give a cesarean section without any anesthesia and I was

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like, you know what, I'm actually done with this crap. I'm not going back there. This is really

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fucked up. Pardon my French. So, we went kind of all in on the veterinary project and we hired a

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veterinary intern who had never learned how to wash her hands, who had never seen the inside of

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an animal dead or alive, who had been in veterinary school for five years, mind you, had only five

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years, never seen the inside of an animal dead or alive, never did any anatomy work, never did

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anything like that, never watched a surgery. She'd never seen a cat neutered, you know, that was

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never discussed. Did you ever ask her what she did during those five years? Oh yeah. I mean, it was

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predominantly things like studying chemistry and microbiology. It was kind of like in the US,

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we have like, you have to get a science degree and then you go to vet school. It was kind of

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like all those little things, but just books that, you know, like the veterinary books and

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that were in their veterinary library, which was tiny, it was like smaller than my tiny house.

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They were all from like decades and decades and decades ago and only one was, I remember looking

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through her library, there was one that was on canine surgery in English, of course, where

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nobody spoke any English, which is hilarious. And the book was written in 1955. That was their most

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recent book on canine surgery, 1955. I don't know about you, but we, I think, I think we can imagine

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that there's a lot that has changed since 1955 and canine surgery. So, so that was, that was a telltale

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of like a really poor education system. I've heard now that the better, the better universities are

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doing things like they have to be able to do a sterilization before they leave, but they have to

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do a sterilization before they leave the university. But frankly, nobody's learning proper sedation

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protocols at all. They're just not getting it. Their, their understanding of basic animal anatomy

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and biology is piss poor, to say the least, but their practical skills, they don't have any animal

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handling skills. They fundamentally don't believe that pain management is something that should be

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discussed. And it's not because they're bad people, predominantly the, the people going into veterinary

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medicine or those that are, that are going to work in the animal agriculture industry. So they're

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going to be either paper pushers in the animal health department that are putting their stamp at

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at slaughterhouses, or they're working in the pharmaceutical industry, which is basically just

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making antibiotics to keep farmed animals alive until we murder them. So you're not really learning

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like basic care. So it's not even just cats and dogs. I mean, you have to look quite holistically

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at the veterinary industry and where its failures are. But I think in the beginning, I didn't really

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understand how bad that was. I knew practically how they were failing. But I mean, they fundamentally

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didn't, you know, my vet here did not understand the difference between a steroid and an antibiotic

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and its function and, and applications. And it just, that's a big deal. You know, that's a really

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big deal. Yeah, it's scary. Because, you know, I have a cat and she's old. And I don't know what

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I would do if I did not have, you know, her vet. Amazing vets. Yeah. Yeah. And thinking about, you

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know, the whole animal industry, they rely a lot on the care of vets. And so you have a whole, you

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know, the frontline, the frontline information is wrong. Yes. So what do you do? And not only that,

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you have to put it in perspective of how Vietnamese culture works in terms of hierarchy. So they're

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very much like there's a lot of deference towards people of a higher rank, right. And so they're

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ranking is like, okay, well, you have a doctor, doctor's degree. So you are the word of God. And

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I'm not going to question you. Doctors, veterinarians here won't even tell you what medication they're

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giving your animals. They'll be like, oh, they have a liver infection and they get, and I'm giving him

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an injection injection of what never know. Right. So they just won't tell you that because that would

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make them lose face and they don't want to give away the information so that you'll just go to

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another vet and tell them what they've done. So it is very like, it's really sick in that way.

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And that's true in a lot of parts of the global South in terms of the, and the public health system

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is exactly the same. They won't tell you what they're giving you. They won't give you information.

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They're just like, I am, I am the doctor. This is the word of God. And this is what's going,

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this is what it comes out of my mouth. And so it must be right. Do not make me lose face by

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asking any questions or by questioning my ability to provide you with great care.

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So if nobody's asking you questions and if they do ask questions, they'll just make something up. If

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they don't know the answer, which is most of the time. So those pet owners, those people that really

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want to help their animals are not able to help their animals because the veterinarians aren't,

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aren't capable of providing just that basic care. And their, their information is, is so like, it's,

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it's the last word. Right. So, so there's, it's kind of a give and take sort of situation that

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just won't improve until the veterinary industry itself improves. And people are like, you should

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rescue animals and you should give, you know, help more animals with who, with who specifically,

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with what vets did you intend for me to rescue all these animals? And so the first few years

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or two years before we opened the vet clinic was all about just like having all these animals that

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we were watching die from things that were, that could have been treated because we simply didn't

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have the veterinarians that knew how to deal with it, could diagnose or talk to us even about what

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was going on. You know, we had hardly any diagnostics and if you don't have diagnostics,

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you don't have treatment. Okay. Like it begins with like, you have a blood machine. Well,

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do you know how much a blood machine costs? No, you don't have a blood machine, but could you do

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a blood smear? Could you look at it under the microscope and give us some answers? Well,

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they don't know what they're looking at. They weren't taught that. Right. So you're not going

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to get it. You're going to get sort of a vague, oh, they got a liver infection. Really? Are you

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sure about that? How do you know? Can you tell me why you said that? You know, oh, I'm going to give

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them an injection of B12. Well, B12 doesn't solve everything. Give them B12, atropine, ampicillin,

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and say, you know, like saline essentially. Those are these things that they just throw at every

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single animal. And they're like, surprise, animal's dead, you know? And, and we just,

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it's kind of like a situation you expect at some point to not have your problem solved when you

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go to the vet. So animal, people bring their animals to a vet knowing that it's probably like

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the last minutes of their life. So when the animal dies because of veterinary malpractice,

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it's not really surprising. Their interaction with the healthcare system as humans and with animals

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is just so negative that there's not like, they don't really expect miracles to happen at a

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veterinarian, you know, just like they wouldn't expect miracles to happen when their grandma's

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dying or to get any real help. You know, I was born in North Africa and the culture there is,

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you know, when I talk with family who still lives there and I tell them about my cat and how I

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bring her to the vet and the treatment I purchased, you know, for her, for her old age,

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they feel like it's a joke because it's just a cat. Why are you spending your money on a cat? And

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you know, an animal doctor, what is that? Right, right, right. Absolutely. I mean,

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there are people here that I've met that didn't know that a vet was a job. They didn't know that

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was a thing. So if we're saying like, you know, like the media attention of course is focused on

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that Asians are cruel to animals. I think we're missing a whole lot of that picture. This whole

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idea that there's this like savage anti-animal thing is just such a raging line of bullshit.

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It sells well. It sells well to dumb white people. But I mean, the marketing is excellent.

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But it's just a lie. It's just like they lack access. It's not like I ran a vet clinic that

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had predominantly Vietnamese staff, Vietnamese clients for almost three years. I guarantee you,

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nobody walked into that clinic thinking, I just don't care about this animal. We were

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constantly busy. You know, this idea that they don't care about animals or cruel to animals or

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whatever all the time just doesn't make any sense. I would say there's a, it's just stupid. I mean,

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they're humans, humans and animals have had a close relationship for a pretty long time.

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Well, you know, I mean, before getting into the cultural differences, and I want to get to that

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because it's such an interesting discussion. I want you to continue your description of the

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state of animal welfare in Vietnam. We talked about the healthcare and how it is completely broken,

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to say the least. What about, and we touched on that, the stray population, you know, stray cats

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and dogs. Would you say that the country is in a state of crisis in terms of the number of-

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Great. That's interesting. Yeah. No. No. Do you know why? The dog meat trade, the dog meat trade

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and the cat meat trade. Yeah. People don't really want to acknowledge what this is. People are all

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boohooing about the dog and cat meat trade and they forget that that's our population control.

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The vast majority of animals in this country are called roaming-owned dogs. So we don't have,

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we don't have a stray population. If we do, it's tiny. It's tiny, you know? And pretty much every

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dog and cat has a place it goes to get food and shelter from the rain and whatever. Are they

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taken care of there? Not necessarily, but it's not like a whole bunch of animals roaming. It's not

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like Cambodia. It's not like Laos. It's not like Thailand. It's not like, you know, it's not like

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a lot of other countries that have a large stray population where animals just literally exist

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without a person's direct care. That's not how it is. So we don't have a population control

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program in the sense that like the reason the animals still aren't lasting more than a year

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usually is disease, dog theft, animals being sold into the meat trade from people who own them. So

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it's not, so they have like a medical problem that the people aren't able to fix or whatever,

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or the animal gets old or the animal bit a kid or something like that. They're going to sell it to

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the dog meat guy. So that's always going to happen. So that's behavioral medical issues that goes in

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to the dog meat trade as well. The cat meat as well. Cat meat is quite a bit smaller, but

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cats are harder to catch to be fair. Dogs are always, cats are a little shifty, you know,

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but I would say, you know, people aren't looking at the fact that like, if you get rid of the dog

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meat trade, you have to replace that with a functional population management system. And

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what's going to happen in Vietnam is that they're going to use culling. If there is no sterilization

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program that is widespread, the Vietnamese government, no doubt in my mind will cull the

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animals with strychnine, will shoot them, whatever, which is what other countries like Myanmar have

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done and Cambodia, they just blanket kill them, you know, Egypt. I mean, there's a lot of countries

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that cull them like that, right? Because they're dealing with, you know, zoonotic diseases,

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particularly rabies. And if a kid gets bitten and gets rabies and dies, I guarantee you that entire

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population of that region is going to be culled, you know? So these are all things that like,

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we have to consider. Plus there's a lot of infectious disease they get, because animals

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aren't being vaccinated. So vaccination and sterilization have to come together, right?

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If we're going to improve the population, or the lives of the population of the existing animals,

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and prevent more from being born that are going to be born into a horrible life, we have to have

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sterilization and vaccination. Preventative care is the only care here, right? Otherwise,

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it's going to be culling and it's the dog meat trade. That's how we manage the population,

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because stray populations, man, that's how you have a lot of problems with human interaction.

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That's how you have the bites, and that's how you have the zoonotic transfers. And we just,

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I want that to be understood very, very clearly about the dog meat trade, that it is our population

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management system. And if you erase it, if you ban it, which I don't believe is going to happen

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in a country with such weak rule of law to begin with, but if you ban it and it actually works,

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then you're going to have a whole lot of strays and it's going to be a different problem. But

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they're going to die one way or another. It's just, you have to choose which way it happens.

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Well, this is a strange economical activity, because if there is a dog meat trade,

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why is there no dog farms? Why are they doing after-stray dogs?

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Right. It's not really a thing here.

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After-stray dogs.

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It's not really straight. I mean, they'll come and they'll steal them or people will sell them

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or whatever, they'll pick them up. So dog theft is a really big problem for sure. And,

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but I mean, it's so, I mean, to be clear, there's about, we estimate around 5 million dogs killed for

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meat every year. And predominantly that happens in the North, but it's really like in every village,

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the dog catcher, I just saw yesterday, same guy I've seen for the past 10 years, they do the same

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job. They just drive around slowly in the middle of the day and they can pick up animals that people

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don't want anymore and they can get, you know. And they're called dog catchers.

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This is the dog catcher. Yeah. I mean, he's just, yeah. And he'll take it to a restaurant and

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whatever. So, or they'll put them on a truck to Hanoi, something like that. I mean, the North

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eats a lot more dog meat than the rest of the country, but still, so 5 million dogs are killed

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every year, but let's compare that to the numbers in animal agriculture. So 551 million chickens are

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killed every year. That's a factor of 105 more, right? Yeah. Multiplier, 105. That's not a small

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amount. 44 million pigs are killed. So we're looking at the, if you, if you look at the whole

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picture, dogs are actually like 0.7% of the animals killed in this country, not including

374
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:52,560
sea life. It's a tiny, tiny amount. And people just absolutely lose their minds. 5 million is a lot.

375
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:59,920
And if I think of them, you know, like you said, if there was no dog meat trade, we would have 5

376
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:06,720
million dogs in the streets. What? Yeah. Oh, and that 5 million doesn't stay 5 million for very long,

377
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:11,840
does it? You know what they're doing in the streets. They're shagging. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just,

378
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,560
they're not just hanging out, not making babies. That 5 million is going to be 25 million within a

379
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:21,920
year. Right? So like you want, and what are they going to do with that 25 million? I guarantee

380
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:27,120
you're going to find a way worse way than the dog meat trade to kill them. Guarantee it. 100%.

381
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:32,720
That's the way the Vietnamese government works. So that's their version of, you know, protecting

382
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:39,840
the public health. So yeah, I mean, it is, I mean, 5 million is a lot. We are a country of 97, 98

383
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,800
million people. It's a very large, densely populated country. So if you kind of put it into

384
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,760
perspective, I think people, people still are thinking this is a tiny little country, you know?

385
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:57,760
I mean, it's really not. And it's very densely populated as well. So it's Asia. It's Asia. It's

386
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,640
Asia. I mean, but we're so much more densely populated. Like Laos has like 6 million people in

387
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,320
it and there are neighbors. It's super weird. Nobody lives in Laos. I don't know why I've never

388
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,400
been to Laos, but there doesn't seem to have people in it. It's a strange exception to the

389
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,360
so weird. So I can't wait to go because maybe it's actually quiet because Vietnam is not.

390
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,680
So yeah, I mean, I think, I think people need to put it into the larger perspective of how many

391
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,760
animals that is by comparison. Am I saying the dog meat trade is a good thing? And I think this is

392
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:33,280
where it gets confusing. No, I am firmly against the dog meat trade. I have stopped dog catchers

393
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:39,040
myself. I have taken animals from the dog meat trade. I have been to the restaurants. I have

394
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:44,400
been, I've done all of this stuff. I see how they're killed. I see all of this. The dog catcher is

395
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:50,080
in my neighborhood every single day. I don't have to wonder about the dog meat trade. This is a real

396
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:55,680
part of my daily life. I'm not some, you know, talking head in Los Angeles or London. That's

397
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,720
like, Oh boohoo, the dog meat trade. Yeah. Okay. Well you were on vacation here at the freaking

398
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:06,640
Hilton for two weeks. You don't know diddly dick about, sorry about the, about the dog meat trade,

399
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:12,160
but it's really true. It's just like they, all the people that cry about it are also non-vegans.

400
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,800
Anyway, you can't talk about the dog meat trade. If you've got bacon grease dripping down your chin,

401
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:25,680
I'm sorry. Like I'm just not buying it. Well, if I wasn't on a trip in Vietnam and I saw, you know,

402
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:33,920
a scooter with a dog in a cage and someone, probably lots of them stuffed in it actually is

403
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:38,880
what you would see, which is pretty horrible. Yeah. You know, I would look at that. I would think,

404
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:45,760
Oh, that's what is that? And then that's it. That it's revolting. Well, I would not have,

405
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:52,320
you know, the idea of those are going to a restaurant and people are going to eat them

406
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:58,640
would not even register in my mind because I have this cultural bias of, Oh, the dogs are not for

407
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:06,080
food. Dogs are, you know, our best friends. So yeah, I think there is also this bias of, you know,

408
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:13,280
you don't really notice until you notice until you notice. And it is, it is revolting for the

409
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:18,800
first couple of years of the organization. We talked about dog meat endlessly. I mean, it was,

410
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,520
it was something even though I was vegan, I would, but I mean, I was vegan. So it kind of like,

411
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,480
I feel like vegans are allowed to talk about a little more. If you're not vegan and you're

412
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:32,560
talking about the dog meat trade, I need you to shut up. Like, it's just, I have no patience for

413
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:37,680
that. But, but I would say, I would say in the first couple of years, it is something that you

414
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:43,600
see and it, and it, and it shakes you to your core. You know, I remember even just in November,

415
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:49,600
I was in Cancun, which is a big city, one of the biggest cities in the south. And, and there was a

416
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:55,280
whole bunch of dogs just packed like there, there's no way they could have put any more in this time,

417
00:43:55,280 --> 00:44:01,760
in this small cage that they put on the back of a motorbike. And, and it really is even after all

418
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:08,160
these years, it makes you sick. Even though I have seen, so I've seen one dog truck on the highway,

419
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:14,640
where all the animals were stuffed in cages and they were going north. And in that time, in 10

420
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:22,160
years of watching, of this organization and looking at animals in horrible situations, I've seen one

421
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:28,400
dog meat truck, I've seen lots of dog catchers, but in that time I've seen thousands upon

422
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:34,800
thousands upon thousands upon thousands of chicken trucks, duck trucks, goat trucks, cow trucks,

423
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:42,160
pig trucks, all of these animals that are being slaughtered in such larger numbers than the dogs.

424
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:47,520
And yet the only thing people focus on when we talk about Vietnam and when we talk about animal

425
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:53,520
cruelty and animal welfare in general is the dogs. And you know, the thing is, I'll admit like you

426
00:44:53,520 --> 00:45:02,240
see them more. You just see them more. Dogs are such an integral part of human life in every part

427
00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:08,000
of the world. Where can you go into the world where there's not somebody with dogs? They're a big

428
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:14,640
part of our lives. So we focus on that and I get it. They are wonderful. I love my dogs. I love dogs.

429
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:24,240
I love animals, you know, but ultimately their suffering is an extension, not an exception. It's

430
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:31,200
an extension of the existing industries of animal exploitation that exist all over the damn planet,

431
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:38,240
everywhere and every country. And in fact, the Vietnamese eat one third of the meat that an

432
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:46,880
American does. One third. That is a fraction of what Americans are producing in dead bodies.

433
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,760
Do you mean like an expert?

434
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:59,040
No, consumption. So in consumption. Yeah. So Americans eat three times as many dead bodies

435
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:05,600
of animals that suffered and died for no good reason than the Vietnamese. Right? And I mean,

436
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,760
that varies throughout the country, of course, depending on poverty levels and whatever, but

437
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:18,400
still, yeah. Let's get into that because the best friend I mentioned, she, yeah, the food she showed

438
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:26,160
me, you know, it looked really good, but it was also, you know, packed with meat. There was meat

439
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:32,400
everywhere, animal products everywhere. And I was really... Is that different from Canada?

440
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:41,040
Yeah. Well, no. No. Go to a restaurant. I mean, I come back from Alabama and I'm like, where's all

441
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:46,240
that? How am I supposed to eat here? True. You know, like I come down, I go to Alabama and be

442
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:50,320
like, I can't even go to a restaurant because they put butter on every damn thing. They put butter

443
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,960
and cheese on steamed vegetables. I just want some steamed vegetables. Throw me a salad that doesn't

444
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,840
have cheese and egg in it or chicken on top of it. You know what I mean? Like I would say,

445
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:04,640
I would say it's much worse in other countries than Vietnam. There is a lot of cheese in

446
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:11,760
Western, you know, cooking, but, you know, I saw a lot of meat, just lots of meat.

447
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:17,360
But they're little pieces. Yeah. Okay. Cause you have to eat them with chopsticks,

448
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,680
right? So it may look like a lot of meat, but fundamentally, if we're talking about weight,

449
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:29,520
it's actually a tiny amount of meat by comparison to others because we don't use knives here.

450
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:35,520
So here, I mean, in the, in the West, you have big chunks of meat that you cut with a fork and

451
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:41,600
knife, right? Here we have to be able to get these little pieces out with chopsticks. That's right.

452
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:47,360
Yeah. So just like the actual volume is significantly smaller. Is it in a lot of dishes?

453
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:52,000
Yes. But here's the thing about vegan food, because we are a Buddhist country in which the

454
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:58,960
Buddhists here, this type of Buddhism is where they are vegan twice a month, full moon and half

455
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:04,320
moon. Some people are vegan only for two days. Some people are vegan for four days. Some people

456
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:10,160
are vegan for 10 days. And some people are vegan all the time, right? So as a result of that, that

457
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:17,440
is all over the country, those, all of those things that you saw that were meat, they replicate in

458
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:25,680
vegan food, right? So every single dish is made into a vegan version of that to be fed to people

459
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:34,240
on full and half moon. Which are called, I think, upasatha days. But that's where the surprise

460
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:40,800
came from. The fact that, you know, I was not expecting that from Vietnam, because in my mind,

461
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:48,720
Vietnam is a Buddhist country. So why are they eating so much meat? Why are they, you know,

462
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:56,640
exploiting animals so much? Because you look at China and there's this big vegetarian movement

463
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:03,040
in China. And you look at India, same thing. And you can see, you know, the influences of

464
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:12,080
Buddhism and Hinduism and such. So I was expecting the same from Vietnam. But no, not exactly.

465
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:17,280
I think there's a lot of, I mean, as they get richer, then this is true around the world.

466
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:24,720
As, as countries get richer, they are also increasing the amount of dead bodies in their

467
00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:31,680
food. That is, that's just the standard graph, you know, like it just goes up together. So Vietnam is

468
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:37,200
becoming wealthier. And they don't have like a vegan movement in that regard. They don't,

469
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:42,240
the Buddhists don't really, I mean, they're all, you know, the all the pagodas are all vegan,

470
00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:46,880
you know, all of that. But like, ultimately, they're not like spreading the word of veganism

471
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:53,040
on its own. It's about compassion and whatever. But ultimately, that doesn't mean that they're

472
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:58,240
not raising animals. It doesn't mean, you know, they're not like it hasn't, or their family members

473
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:04,720
or whatever, they're not, it's just a very different version of like the vegan movement from like the

474
00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:12,640
UK, for example, you know, but but I don't see it at all in Thailand, frankly, you know, I don't I

475
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:18,400
mean, I mean, as far as vegan food in Thailand, I mean, I'd give a big thumbs down to that. I mean,

476
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,880
like, you know, of course, like in Bangkok and stuff, it's fine. And there are lots of places

477
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,040
throughout the country, but it's not at all like in Vietnam, where you can get vegan food any place

478
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:36,160
you go. You know, there's always a chai place, chay chai. Yeah. How do you explain that disconnect

479
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:43,520
that, you know, twice a month, they eat vegan for they get it? Yeah. Yeah. Because then all of a

480
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:50,000
sudden, nothing. I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't get it. It makes me endlessly angry. I am

481
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:56,080
constantly pissed off at foodists for being like, I mean, I live in a constant state of like, what

482
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:02,160
are you missing here? Because they get it. It's like full and half. And their food is great. And

483
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:08,240
they're eating the same stuff. And like all these great dishes and this beautiful, you know, the

484
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:12,960
why don't you do it all the time? Exactly. You have the cultural basis, the religious spaces,

485
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:20,560
and you have vegan food, great vegan options. So yeah, why is there no, you know, support? I

486
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:26,080
think a lot of it is nutrition. A lot of people have this idea and are brought up with the idea of

487
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:31,520
just like Americans that you need meat to survive, that meat makes you strong. And without it, you

488
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:38,000
are weak, right? So I think a lot of it is nutrition based. And that's just wrong information,

489
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:44,560
the same wrong information I was given as a child, you know, so the broken healthcare system.

490
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:50,720
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And they're like, you know, it's just trying to feed people meat

491
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:56,800
in order to be healthier. And when in reality, it's quite the opposite. But it just doesn't make

492
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:02,880
any sense. I get it. I mean, it makes me really, it makes me really angry. I get pretty pissed off

493
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:11,040
at foodists. Yeah. So how do Vietnamese people perceive your sanctuary? Um, that's complicated,

494
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:16,800
because I live, you know, I live in a tourist town, right? It's a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

495
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:23,920
So it's an old, an old city that was built by the Chinese and Japanese in the 15th century. And so

496
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:31,280
we have this beautiful old town. And so we have a large influx of foreign influence, right? So it's

497
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:35,920
not like I'm some weirdo for doing this. But in the beginning, it's taken a long time for them to

498
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:42,880
to accept it. But they're still like, I'm still about three kilometers from the center, which is

499
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:49,600
like countryside here, which I think is really funny. And, and so there's still a lot of people,

500
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:54,560
the people that live here may have gotten wealthier from from work in town, but their education

501
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:59,760
hasn't changed. And their experience with the world hasn't really changed that much. So I think

502
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:06,240
I think people think it's ridiculous what we do. You know, but, but in general, but then there's

503
00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:12,480
a lot of people that really support it as well. You know, I mean, there's a lot of people, a lot

504
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:18,800
of Vietnamese just love doggies and kitties, which is standard around the world. But the idea of being

505
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:25,760
a vegan organization, I've been specifically like anti speciesist is something that is kind of really,

506
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:32,160
really brand spanking new to this country. And we are the only farm sanctuary in the country.

507
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:37,520
We're the only anti speciesist organization, we're the only vegan rescue. So that makes us

508
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:43,360
from being an animal rescue, which they only kind of get anyway, to being a farm sanctuary

509
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:50,400
is is a big leap, you know, and to be like somebody who loves dogs and doesn't eat pigs, like that's,

510
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:56,160
like, why would you do that? You know, like, but that's true in every country. I don't feel like

511
00:53:56,160 --> 00:54:02,880
that. We get that same problem. And whether I'm in France or in, you know, Costa Rica, they're like,

512
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:10,480
so wait, you love dogs, and you don't eat other animals? Are you sure that's normal? Are you okay?

513
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:18,160
Yeah, no, I mean, really, so we are freaks in a lot of ways, not just to the local people.

514
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:26,000
Which again, is very strange to me, because if we're talking about the West, I understand from,

515
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:31,440
you know, the Christian Judeo Christian heritage, even, you know, in Islamic countries,

516
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:39,120
the perception of animals has always been, you know, this is food for you. Right. And this is

517
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:45,440
sustenance for you, you know, and there's nothing more to that. And then there are, even then there

518
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:53,840
are a few exceptions, you know, like, who's that St. Francis of? Yeah, of Assisi. Assisi, you know,

519
00:54:54,640 --> 00:55:01,680
there are a few notable exceptions to that. And some, and of course, veganism is born in the West.

520
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:10,640
We could say that. But if I think about Asia, and its Buddhist, you know, background, cultural

521
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:17,920
background, and when I think about countries like India, or China, where being vegetarian and caring

522
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:24,400
for the animals is pretty, you know, it's understandable. It's recognized. And yes,

523
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:31,360
and no. Yeah, but yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, my favorite mock meat is Taiwanese, you know,

524
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:37,120
right? Exactly. Yeah, get about beyond meat and the rest, you know, yeah, get my mock meat from

525
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:46,240
a Taiwanese supermarket. They understand, you know, the palette, and they have been doing this for

526
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:56,400
a long time. So, you know, it's so strange to see a country that has all the recipe for expanding

527
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:03,760
their circle of compassion to every animal, exercising that kind of discrimination, you know,

528
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:10,160
you know, dogs and cats in one category and the rest in the other. And we're going to treat

529
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:18,080
one category as food and the other as friends. And yeah, it's just strange. I have this strange.

530
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:22,640
I mean, there are people after all, though. And I mean, I think unfortunately, they're just kind of,

531
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:28,800
they realize that, you know, particularly here, if you have big meat restaurants and hot pot and all

532
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:33,520
of these things, then you get a lot of foreigners to come, you make a bunch of money off that. And

533
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:38,720
that's kind of, you know, you also have to realize that Vietnam hasn't opened up for very long. I

534
00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:45,120
mean, it was still just in the mid to early, early to mid 90s, you know, that they finally just opened

535
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:51,520
up after decades closed off from the world. And so they really just kind of focused on where do we

536
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:56,000
make money? And how do we spend our money looking flashy and meat just as part of that as well?

537
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:02,720
But it is crazy that there is sort of this like, ability to kind of separate the two. And I mean,

538
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:07,120
like, look, I'm not going to say that people all treat animals well. I mean, they throw rocks at

539
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:12,480
dogs. I mean, it's a huge, it's a huge difference from how you see people treating animals in other

540
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:20,400
countries in a lot of ways. Particularly men, I would say it all comes down to patriarchal nonsense

541
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:26,480
and that, and that they are very much like men don't do nice things for animals, you know, men

542
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:32,320
aren't like that, you know, men, we throw rocks at dogs, we don't pet doggies, you know, that's stupid,

543
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:37,680
you know, and so that crap just, I can't take that. I can't take any of that. But, but I mean,

544
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:43,360
predominantly, like most of our dogs end up hating Vietnamese men. And there's a good reason for it,

545
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:50,160
you know, I would say kind of your average country bumpkin. It's a lot like in the States as well,

546
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:55,920
though, you know, this is my farm dog. He's my, I'm gonna keep him on a chain and he's gonna

547
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:00,000
protect the property and whatever he's gonna bark when something happens, but I'm not gonna give him

548
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,880
any basic medical care and whatever. I mean, this happens around the world and a lot of it is related

549
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:11,600
to like, kind of, you know, socioeconomic status, for the most part, and the culture that goes with

550
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:18,800
that socioeconomic status. Yeah. And we, like you said, we also find that in North America, I knew,

551
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:26,320
I know shelter dogs who don't like men. They just don't, you know, they're scared of men.

552
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:32,480
And, you know, that idea, it's not an accident. It's not an accident. Men have been the abusers

553
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:39,120
in most of our abuse cases. And, and also this idea that if you become vegan and you're a man,

554
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:46,640
you're doing something on manly. Yeah. You know, that we could link that to the treatment of

555
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:51,840
animals you described from Vietnamese men. Absolutely. Yeah. It's very interesting. It's

556
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:58,400
machismo. It's machismo and machismo exists around the world. It's not, it's not something

557
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:04,160
exclusive to Vietnam. It's not something exclusive to Guatemala. It's not something exclusive to

558
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:10,560
Turkey. Machismo is just kind of what is preventing, I think, a lot of otherwise decent men from

559
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:17,280
becoming compassionate, empathetic people unable to understand that we shouldn't harm other living

560
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:24,320
beings. Well, it's, it's interesting to see how, you know, it's like two sides of the same coin.

561
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:30,560
Like you have animal abuse, animal exploitation, and it's common to all cultures, just like you

562
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:35,600
have veganism and people who are compassionate to animals. Absolutely. It goes both ways. Yeah. It

563
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:42,400
takes the form of veganism. It takes the form of Hinduism, Buddhism, all of, you know, multiple

564
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:49,760
practices. And sometimes, you know, it roots itself in the land or sometimes I guess it doesn't like

565
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:59,120
in Vietnam. Sure. But hopefully things will change. I mean, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, but at the

566
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:03,280
same time, it's like, I think the one thing that has been very clear over the past decade is that

567
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:10,480
like I'm a white American woman. I am not going to change this country. I can pick up the mess and

568
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:16,240
I can do, I can do the fundraising that gets something to help the veterinary capacity building,

569
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:22,400
but ultimately social change is not up to me. It will never be up to me. I think the whole white

570
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:34,400
man's burden crap just doesn't play out. I don't have any, any illusion as to my influence in

571
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:40,400
Vietnamese people's lives, you know, and the way this country is going to change over the decades.

572
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:46,400
I mean, I think, I think I have more of a global reach in that regard for English speakers around

573
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:52,240
the world because we write most of our posts in English. And to be like, this is what's going on

574
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:58,480
here. And this is my perspective from being a, you know, a vegan in Vietnam who happens to also be

575
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:04,240
American, who was the daughter of a, you know, Marine officer and CIA agent, you know, and this

576
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:11,760
is my perspective is not like we're the oppressors, you know, like we're the, we were the colonizers

577
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:15,680
that they kicked out. I don't have any illusions as to what I'm going to be able to do for this

578
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:22,480
country. My goal is to motivate the Vietnamese themselves to create that cultural and social

579
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:29,120
change and to be back up and to support them in that change. But I can't do it myself.

580
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:35,040
Well, you know, you, you would be surprised because when I first became vegan and I told

581
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:41,920
the elders in my family, my grandma, the first thing she said was, oh, you're eating like

582
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:49,920
the elders, the ancestors of the family used to eat. Oh, really? Yes. And it was very touching

583
01:01:50,640 --> 01:02:00,080
to hear that because I understood there that I think part of the reason why in my culture,

584
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:06,080
meat and animal products became very common was because of colonialism. You know, North Africa

585
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:13,200
was colonized by the French. Vietnam was also colonized by the French. I don't know if maybe

586
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:18,800
their food was influenced by the French people. I know. Yes, definitely. Very much. Yes. Well,

587
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:25,200
yeah, absolutely. Might be the reason here because I know my native culture, you know, was very much

588
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:31,440
in terms of food influenced by the French and a lot of, you know, meat, eggs, butter and things

589
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:40,880
like that are not common to and they became common with. Right. Well, I mean, colonialism is one

590
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:47,200
start, but like, let's not ignore the FAO, the Food and Agriculture Organization, the UNDP, United

591
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:54,480
Nations Development. What am I? Development program? Why do I forget that? It is six o'clock in the

592
01:02:54,480 --> 01:03:00,080
morning. Oh, it's just like, why, great. I need another cup of coffee at this stage. Sorry. So the

593
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:08,000
UNDP, the FAO, all of these organizations that are and universities that are injecting their influence

594
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:14,720
and their money into increasing animal agriculture in this country. So the World Bank also has projects.

595
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:21,520
You know, these are all people, these are all large organizations that are using animal agriculture

596
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:26,240
as a development process and using that as livelihoods development. And I say that with

597
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:31,360
air quotes for a really good reason. So I mean, like the idea that you can improve somebody's

598
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:37,680
life by giving them an opportunity to exploit and kill somebody else to me is just not. I mean,

599
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:44,080
that's that's that's insanity. That's absolute insanity. Well, it's fascinating. I did not make

600
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:49,200
this link, but makes me think of it's absolutely international organizations and their development

601
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:58,080
process. Yeah. And, you know, in Canada, we had the National Dietary Guide. And then and I remember

602
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:06,320
in school, we would learn, you know, the different, you know, kind of groups of food you needed in your

603
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:14,240
diet. And yeah, those animal products were there always meat and, and that guide, you know, we

604
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:21,920
discovered very recently that it was sponsored by the animal industry. And there was this.

605
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:28,320
Same in the US. Yeah. A lot of dietitians, you know, were saying in the country,

606
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:35,120
this, this is not scientific. This guide should not should not be taught in school. And

607
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:41,680
it just disappeared overnight. And I was thinking, well, this was such a, you know,

608
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:49,200
a big part of my education, like, we were lied to. Yeah. And we were lied to. So I can't imagine how,

609
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:56,240
you know, that influence must be great in countries where, like Vietnam, where the health

610
01:04:56,240 --> 01:05:03,280
care system is so broken. So yeah. Yeah. So I mean, we're adding animal products to a country

611
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:07,760
in which the health care system cannot handle what happens when you add animal products,

612
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:13,360
which is obviously increase in cancer. It's an increase in obesity. It's a, you know,

613
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:17,600
they're feeding what they, what their main thing is doing is trying to put dairy into everything.

614
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:22,480
The dairy industry is one of the strongest in the world. And in terms of animal agriculture,

615
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:26,160
I mean, their marketing is exemplary. If you want to learn about good marketing,

616
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:30,800
you learn about how to sell breast milk to an adult, you know, like that's, that's your,

617
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:36,960
that's your best example. So they, you know, they're really pushing it on yogurts. They do a lot of,

618
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:41,440
like milk teas and all of these things. You're putting milk in like a ton of different products

619
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:48,640
that they never did before. And the Vietnamese have a huge lactose intolerance problem. But these

620
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:52,640
international companies have come in and they're pushing it and pushing it and pushing it. These

621
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:58,800
aren't usually funded by Vietnam. They're funded by international companies. One of them, one of

622
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:05,840
the biggest ones is Thai and, and, and it's just, and Dutch and there's just all these sorts of,

623
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:10,960
and they're like marketing is like, this is this wholesome, happy dairy cow that's out in the

624
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:16,160
fields. And we're just playing, you know, this natural happy family playing, like you should see

625
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:21,680
the commercials. It's absolute garbage, but they do it in, in, before a movie, you know, they have

626
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:29,120
dairy and they have the dairy company commercials at the cinemas. I mean, it's incredible marketing

627
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:34,560
campaign, you know, but they give them to kids all the time. And so these kids are actually becoming

628
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:40,400
obese for the first time in the history of this country. You got fat kids all over now. Vietnam is

629
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:45,280
the second least obese country in the world. And that's very quickly changing with the new generation

630
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:51,120
of children being brought up on high sugar content yogurts, right? All these little things that

631
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:54,320
they're, I mean, the Vietnamese put sugar in everything. Okay. Don't get me wrong. They love

632
01:06:54,320 --> 01:07:00,000
sugar. They're huge sugar fans. Um, but they have just packed that yogurt full of sugar. Why? Because

633
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:06,880
that is addictive. They're getting those kids hooked on dairy early because it's sweet, right?

634
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,720
You're not eating natural yogurt. If you're giving kids plain yogurt, they're not going to,

635
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:16,080
they're not going to get excited about it. I can tell you that. Um, so, I mean, it's just this whole

636
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:21,920
like push for these things, these animal products that I find it very difficult to stop, you know,

637
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:28,640
if we don't have a social, a social cultural revolution, that's like, we've got to stop putting

638
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:34,480
animal products in the mouths of all of these people. We have to stop producing it. We have to

639
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:40,720
stop importing it. We have to stop eating like this. It's not healthy. We're supporting like

640
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:46,000
environmental destruction. Not only that you're having a whole bunch of these like

641
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:50,800
CAFOs built concentrated animal feeding operations that are built in places where there's just no

642
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:56,000
environmental regulation, right? So all of these things that come with CAFOs, which is the water

643
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:59,920
pollution, particularly, which is really bad, especially considering this is a country that

644
01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:04,160
is a big fishing country. You've got a whole bunch of water pollution. You're going to have dead zones

645
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:10,480
up and down this, this coastline. Um, all of these things are coming from these massive investments

646
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:15,600
into the dairy industry, particularly, and pig farms that are huge and chicken farms and whatever.

647
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:23,280
So we're intensifying agriculture, even though I think it's only about 70% of, uh, 70% of animal

648
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:29,200
agriculture in Vietnam right now, 70 to 80% is small holder farms. So that's 20 animals and under.

649
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:33,600
So it continues to be like that, but that means most people have an animal.

650
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:38,720
Most people have a farmed animal. This is something that you have a couple of cows,

651
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:42,800
you have a couple of pigs in your backyard, you always have chickens running around.

652
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:48,640
It doesn't mean that that's nicer exploitation. It's just that it's not fully, it's not making a

653
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:53,280
whole lot of money. And it's just kind of, you know, the poorest people in the world happen to be

654
01:08:53,280 --> 01:08:59,120
animal farmers, you know, this idea that we, we are increasing their livelihoods or protecting

655
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:04,400
them by ensuring that they're able to have access to the exploitation and murder of another sentient

656
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:11,040
being doesn't make any sense to me, you know, with all of the run of the externalities that come with

657
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:16,160
that, it's they're shooting themselves in the foot and the FAO is absolutely not going to say anything.

658
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:20,960
Um, UNDP, IOM, World Bank, they're not going to do anything because they're run by people who think

659
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:26,960
that farming animals is right. And that's how we increase it, you know, economic productivity.

660
01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:32,960
Yeah. Well, maybe briefly, but we're doing so much other damage and we're harming so many more

661
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:37,360
animals. You, you gotta kind of look at the whole picture and those international organizations

662
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:38,160
don't do that.

663
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:48,240
Well, honestly, Kat, um, if the West is doing such a negative impact right now on Vietnam in terms of,

664
01:09:48,480 --> 01:09:54,160
you know, introducing animal products, I say, it's good that you're here.

665
01:09:55,840 --> 01:10:06,800
Yeah. Yeah. Kind of importing something good now. I hope so. Yes. And yeah, so let's talk about this.

666
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:12,400
Let's talk about your sanctuary. Who are the residents there and what are your current projects?

667
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:17,680
Right. So, I mean, currently we're trying really hard to get our veterinary project restarted,

668
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:22,000
but we've been trying for like four to five years at this point. It's very difficult to get the money

669
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:27,760
for it because people here veterinary and they just don't think that it's worthy of, um, any funding.

670
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:34,320
Um, especially because we're a vegan vet clinic and an anti-speciesist project, which ruffles a few

671
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:39,600
feathers, I'm not going to lie. Um, I am, I was built to ruffle feathers. That's kind of what, what

672
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:45,200
my whole life purpose is, but, but anyway, it's difficult to get funding for. So we have a sanctuary

673
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:50,080
where the only, like I said, the only farm sanctuary in the country, um, as far as we know,

674
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:56,000
there is another one, nobody's been able to find it for us. Um, but we, um, so we've got two pig

675
01:10:56,000 --> 01:11:03,120
residents that are eight and 12, so basically the oldest of their breed in the entire country. Um,

676
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:10,880
we've got four chickens who are lovely. They came to us just this spring. Um, come on, we've got nine

677
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:15,680
kittens, which is so many. I can hear the one screaming behind me. There's four in the room,

678
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:23,200
just behind me. Um, I fed you, be quiet. Um, I wanted them to be quiet during this podcast. Anyway,

679
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:29,680
so, and then we've got another five that were just sterilized yesterday. Um, and we've got, I think,

680
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:35,120
15 other cats. And then we've got, we're really reducing our number of dogs. We're really working

681
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:40,320
hard to reduce the number of animals as much as possible because we need to put all of our funds

682
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:46,080
into the veterinary project, which will ideally be a mobile veterinary clinic. So reaching the people

683
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:50,880
that don't have access to veterinary care and providing vaccinations and sterilization. So

684
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:57,440
ongoing preventative care in the rural regions in central Vietnam, and also being able to train,

685
01:11:57,440 --> 01:12:02,560
um, Vietnamese veterinarians that are fresh out of graduate or fresh out of school. So we get them

686
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:07,520
before they've learned anything really stupid. And then we train them up so that they're being

687
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:12,480
trained by our international veterinary staff. So this is a big project we wanted to get started

688
01:12:12,480 --> 01:12:20,560
in January, 2024. Um, but yeah, at the moment we have something called kitten miss, which is getting

689
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:26,080
rid of all the kittens, getting them all re-homed by Christmas. We want all those babies to have

690
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:31,920
homes by Christmas. Um, because, you know, people don't realize that every single animal is a real

691
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:38,000
drain on our ability to do preventative work. Um, not only on our time, but also on our financial

692
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:44,080
resources and physical space. Um, so we really want to get all those babies out as quickly as

693
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:49,520
possible to safe and loving lifelong homes, which is far harder than you'd ever imagine it to be

694
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:57,760
here. Um, so we can also export, we have, I guess, three animals going in September, um, to the, um,

695
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:02,880
to Paris, and then they'll go to the UK. Um, so we do international exports as well. So if you want

696
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:08,240
to adopt animals, we, we definitely can do the rabies titer test and microchip them and get them

697
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:15,040
sent over within 90 days. Um, yeah, so we're able to get some animals out, but it's just a matter

698
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:23,520
of like, that is a hugely expensive process that is so, so inefficient in terms of like the number

699
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:29,440
of animals in need here. The biggest problem is that it takes so much. I mean, like I'm happy they

700
01:13:29,440 --> 01:13:33,680
all have homes. I'm really happy that I've been able to provide that. I just did three last month

701
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:40,480
to the UK and Paris, and I'm super happy about that. They, they deserve lifelong loving homes,

702
01:13:40,480 --> 01:13:45,920
but it took so much money and so much time and effort to get them on those planes and then to

703
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:51,120
get them transported. And I had to rent a car to drive across the UK to bring them to Wales in the

704
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:56,320
middle of nowhere. I mean, like it was some serious work. Um, I'm super happy they're there, but like,

705
01:13:56,320 --> 01:14:01,120
we have to be a lot more efficient if we're going to address the problem that exists, right? Like I

706
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:07,200
said, 5 million dogs are killed for dog meat every year. If we could sterilize a thousand a year,

707
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:13,600
you know, like we're making a huge dent on it, but we can't do that. If I'm, if, if my time and all

708
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:21,200
of my staff time is spent just trying to maintain the sanctuary, trying to just keep our heads above

709
01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:29,840
water in terms of funding our overhead, um, which is just been really hard. Um, and, and trying to

710
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:33,920
move forward with a project that's actually going to do the amount of work that we need to do for

711
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:39,280
the number of animals that are actually in need. My job is to go out of business, right? And it's

712
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:47,200
to, I, I did my whole job. It's to have no more animals to rescue, right? How am I supposed to do

713
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:52,160
that? If I'm focused on, on getting a puppy to Paris, you know, how am I supposed to focus on

714
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:57,280
that? If all of our time is taking animals and rehabbing them and paying vet bills and then

715
01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:03,280
putting them on airplanes to someplace else because local adoptions are so rare. Um, yeah.

716
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:07,360
You're not actively looking for them. I mean, sometimes come and just

717
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:17,120
dump them. Yeah. Yeah. Most of them are being dumped on us. Um, you know, one of the poodle

718
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:24,240
that went to, to Wales, she was locked in a, she was zipper tied in a beer crate and left at the

719
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:29,760
end of our driveway. The four kittens that we just got right here, they were dumped on, um, at the,

720
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:35,440
at the, um, shelter on the other four. They were also dumped. Um, we had to bottle feed them every

721
01:15:35,440 --> 01:15:41,280
three hours when we got them. That wasn't fun. Um, that takes all of my energy and sanity to do.

722
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:47,600
Um, so, so yeah, I mean, like most of them, I mean, there are some that we find for sure. Um,

723
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:52,080
there are some that were like, basically most of our animals that came to us came from major

724
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:59,360
medical cases. So they were animals that were like in a, like actively dying and we intervened,

725
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:03,440
you know, but unfortunately people, people get quite excited about that on the day that they're

726
01:16:03,440 --> 01:16:08,800
rescued and don't understand that the vast majority of them are going to end up not being adoptable

727
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:14,320
or having very major difficulties being adopted, particularly when it comes to cats and that we're

728
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:18,960
going to have them for the next 15 years, but paying those expenses for like the existing

729
01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:24,640
residents in a sanctuary is unbelievably difficult. People do not want to, they want, they're happy to

730
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:29,440
be like, Oh, I'm going to help you pay this vet bill for this animal you got today. Okay. Well,

731
01:16:29,440 --> 01:16:34,080
what about the next 15 years? What are you going to do about that animal? That, um, so ongoing

732
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:40,480
expenses tend to be very difficult for all rescues around the world. Um, people, it's just not, it's

733
01:16:40,480 --> 01:16:47,840
not sexy. Overhead isn't sexy. Um, paying vet bills for a nine year old cat that never got adopted

734
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:55,440
when we got him as a kitten, um, not sexy. So, um, so unfortunately just the entire business model

735
01:16:55,440 --> 01:17:02,160
of sanctuary and shelter and rescue here does not function because locally it's so difficult to get

736
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:06,560
adoptions. It's not, we're not in California. We're in Vietnam. Most people here, like I said,

737
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:11,840
have owned roaming dogs. So the animals are not safe. We do not adopt to anybody that lets their

738
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:17,840
animals roam around. So everybody that has a dog will have to have it safe indoors and in a

739
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:24,240
protected garden, which 99% of people here don't have. Um, otherwise that animal is going to get

740
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:29,040
stolen and killed, or it's going to end up getting an infectious disease. It's going to end up being

741
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:34,080
in a traffic accident. So we don't adopt to people like that, which eliminates the entire

742
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:40,240
local population for that matter. Same with cats, cats, we only will adopt to indoor homes,

743
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:44,720
but it's a very hot country. Everybody has their windows open. Everybody has doors open all the

744
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:49,280
time. So we can only adopt to people living in apartments and those apartment buildings have to

745
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:56,720
allow cats. So that is just in general, like our ability to take animals is hampered by the fact

746
01:17:56,720 --> 01:18:02,960
that they got to go somewhere. You, you can't just take them. It doesn't, it actually doesn't work

747
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:07,840
like that. The math doesn't work out, you know, because the amount of animals that need to be

748
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:14,560
taken, we simply just don't have the capacity to just keep adding more and keep adding more and

749
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:20,000
keep adding more while we're ignoring the preventative work that prevents those more from coming.

750
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:27,040
Right. So that balance has to rebalance. It's way off at the moment. Well, local shelters here,

751
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:34,560
you know, North America have a hard time finding homes for your residents. So you're in Vietnam,

752
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:42,480
you're not in a friendly environment for, you know, animal welfare and you have to do the same job.

753
01:18:42,480 --> 01:18:51,040
It's 10 times harder. So you have all of my admiration. No, but you're doing some miracles

754
01:18:51,760 --> 01:19:03,200
here. So it's, I mean, truly amazing. And it's sad to see how, you know, even on the international

755
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:11,200
scene, you know, sometimes it feels like Westerners and people in richer countries have like,

756
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:19,440
have more values and medias and, you know, everyone pays more attention to what happens in the West,

757
01:19:19,440 --> 01:19:25,440
even if it's something minor. Absolutely. There's a catastrophe and it's taking the lives of,

758
01:19:25,440 --> 01:19:31,280
I don't know how many people in a poor country and nobody pays attention. But that,

759
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:41,920
that same dynamic applies to animals. There are also animals in Vietnam and in other parts of the

760
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:50,320
world who are suffering. And, you know, we're so focused on animals here, which is understandable.

761
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:55,520
But what about the rest of the world? Because it's in their community. So it's in your community

762
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:59,360
and you're paying attention to the ones there. Well, imagine that you live in a country in which

763
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:04,640
nobody pays attention to that. And the people here don't pay attention to it. And the only people

764
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:11,040
that pay for us to do this work live like 7,000 miles away. You also have to consider that our

765
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:15,840
funding is not coming predominantly from the poor residents of the country that we live in,

766
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:22,000
and a community that does not understand or care about the work that we do. Right. So they don't,

767
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:26,720
they don't get what's going on predominantly and they don't want to participate in it in terms of

768
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:33,280
philanthropy. So, so not only are we ignored by people abroad, because the only thing that people

769
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:39,200
think about here is the dog meat trade or the Vietnam war, but we also just don't have access

770
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:45,520
to the funds to keep going in terms of like rescue and rehabilitation, rehoming, you know, we just

771
01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:50,880
don't, I mean, it's very difficult to get people to connect to Vietnam. Most people couldn't find us

772
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:57,440
on a map. So we're really in a major disadvantage. And then you add to it, the fact that we are an

773
01:20:57,440 --> 01:21:05,440
anti-speciesist vegan organization, which pisses everybody off, you know, like we are outspoken

774
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:11,360
and absolutely will not stop talking about abolitionism. And I guarantee you that does

775
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:16,720
not make us any friends. So you take a giant pool of people that otherwise would support us,

776
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:20,640
even amongst the local population, because we're helping animals in general. And a lot of the

777
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:26,080
Buddhists find that to be valuable. But then you then you're like, oh, but we're vegan. And they're

778
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:33,760
like, oh, I don't know. That's really confrontational for me. Yeah. Why? Because you kill animals? Yeah.

779
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:39,440
Yeah, you do. So we actually don't kill anybody. And I'm not going to judge you and be mean to you,

780
01:21:39,440 --> 01:21:46,240
but I'm not going to lie about it. You know, my son is a pig. My real son is a pig. I know that

781
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:51,920
sounds insane, but he is my son. And I love him more than anything in the world. And if you think

782
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:57,440
he's edible, you don't support our work and you don't love animals. If that gets you all hurt

783
01:21:57,440 --> 01:22:01,760
because of the, because of the fact that it confronts you, you need to look at yourself,

784
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:06,560
not at me as being somebody judgmental or whatever. You need to step back and be like,

785
01:22:06,560 --> 01:22:13,280
am I harming animals? Yeah. We rescue animals from you. If you're not vegan,

786
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:20,320
that's a hard thing for people to take in. We rescue animals from non-vegans.

787
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:27,760
That is mind blowing. You are a sanctuary. What are you protecting your residents from?

788
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:35,200
It's right. Local population. People that eat them, which is 98% of the human population.

789
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:40,800
Right. So like it's insane that we're like, we're really having to defend ourselves against people

790
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:46,960
that think my son is edible, you know, and our chickens belong on a Caesar salad. Yeah. Because

791
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:52,080
they couldn't figure out that like plants have protein. I'm like, I don't know. Like stop talking

792
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:58,080
to the marathon runner, Ironman Triathlete, who doesn't think that you need to murder an animal.

793
01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:04,320
You know, like, I'm sorry, we're not in the same boat. So like we do, we are confrontational on

794
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:09,600
that degree, but it's like in that regard, I think, but that's just kind of who I am as a person.

795
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:15,840
And I'm never going to stop being that. I mean, I was kind of a virulent meat eater before I was a

796
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:21,840
vegan as well. I hated vegans. I told people I wanted to put them on an island in napalm.

797
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:28,080
Like I just was super anti-vegan. Yeah. I was a fox hunter and I worked for the national Turkey

798
01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:33,680
Federation in Washington, DC. I was, I worked for the farmer's lobby. I mean, like people change.

799
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:38,720
I get it. And I'm just, but people don't change unless you talk about it. So vegans that run

800
01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:43,840
vegans that run animal rescues that don't talk about veganism, they really upset me the most

801
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:48,160
because the animals don't need silent vegans. They need people who are willing to stand up for all

802
01:23:48,160 --> 01:23:55,680
species. And it's not going to be the ones that are doggy loving pig eating animal rescuers. It's

803
01:23:55,680 --> 01:24:00,640
not going to be them. It has to be us. And we just have to stand up in it. And I guarantee you're

804
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:05,920
going to lose a lot of money doing it, but ultimately we've got what 2.8 trillion animals

805
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:10,720
that are unnecessarily killed every year. And I'm pretty sure if they had to choose between

806
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:14,880
somebody who was just going to keep their donors happy and somebody who was going to stand up for

807
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:19,600
them, they would take somebody standing up for them and taking a hit. Well, you know, at least

808
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:24,480
we worked for animals. I don't work for, I don't work for the public. And at least you want to

809
01:24:24,480 --> 01:24:34,000
support someone who is wholeheartedly in the fight, you know, someone who looks at your sanctuary

810
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:39,040
and knows that you're here for the good reasons, you know, and you're not going to,

811
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:48,560
you know, this is not something about you. This is not your really, you know, you believe in your

812
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:55,760
cause and if I were greedy, this would be a horrible place to be. This would be the worst

813
01:24:55,760 --> 01:25:03,600
possible job. You do it for the money. Really? Show me the money. Show me. I would love to see

814
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:09,680
that. Well, at least people should appreciate it. Did I just forget my pin code to my ATM? Is that

815
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:15,360
where the money is? Oh, no, no, no, no. We don't get anything out of this. I guarantee you there

816
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:21,840
is no joy in this work. It is all about the animals and we do the best we can. I mean, it kills us all

817
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:28,800
the time, but you know, we're trying to improve that. Like I said, people should at least appreciate,

818
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:35,440
you know, your feelings, your sincerity in what you're doing. Sure. At the very least, you know,

819
01:25:36,480 --> 01:25:44,320
they know that you're not bullshitting here. Definitely not. So if listeners want to support

820
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:52,800
your sanctuary, what should they do? We definitely can use the funds, but more than funds, I would say,

821
01:25:52,800 --> 01:26:00,400
you know, like donating is great, but so is helping us get animals adopted so that we can move on to

822
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:06,640
the veterinary program. I would say being able to share our work is really nice and to be able to

823
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:13,840
say, hey, there is a morally consistent animal rescue in Vietnam who loves and does not kill

824
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:20,880
animals. We should support them. I would say also, you know, you can always do fundraising for us,

825
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:26,400
which would be really great. Things like running a race, because I'm a big runner or I was until my

826
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:32,560
foot fell apart. But I really love it when people do athletic events and they fundraise for us in

827
01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:37,840
that way, because that's really good for us for not only for the funds, but for marketing in general,

828
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:45,840
getting the word out about us. We are in kind of a dark space in the sense of we have very small

829
01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:52,480
reach for the organization and just getting the word out is really, really helpful so that we have

830
01:26:52,480 --> 01:26:59,600
a wider reach for our work. And that gives us availability of more resources to do the work that

831
01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:06,000
we need to do and to get more animals adopted and to be able to get more staff, to be able to get

832
01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:14,320
the veterinary project rolling again and have just a wider reach to be able to do that is invaluable.

833
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:20,320
And the idea of, you know, fundraising for your organization, you know, make it fun,

834
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:25,600
make it something, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, like a whole sporting event. It can be

835
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:34,560
just a good fun, but it can be just not everybody like sale. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Going

836
01:27:34,560 --> 01:27:40,960
door to door or having a dinner party, have a dinner party. Yeah. Or a table at the entrance

837
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:46,240
of your supermarket, something like that. And, you know, talking with people, you know, gather

838
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:54,160
with friends and do a game night and for your sanctuary. So yeah, it can take so many forms and

839
01:27:54,160 --> 01:28:02,960
it can be so fun. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So to end this conversation, Kat, did you want to add

840
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:09,840
something? Yeah, I mean, there's just one thing that I think people forget is that compassion

841
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:15,440
fatigue is a big subject for me. And I think people, I want people to be a lot more compassionate to

842
01:28:15,440 --> 01:28:21,600
people that work in this field. Because we go through and see a lot of things that we can't

843
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:28,320
necessarily always share, and we shouldn't have to share. And it can be very dark and isolating. This

844
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:37,360
is an unbelievably isolating job. Even when we weren't, you know, being I think, I think being

845
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:42,000
where we are, and being a vegan organization, and all of that makes it very isolating. But I think

846
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:46,960
even if you're in California, it can be very isolating if you run a farm sanctuary, or a

847
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:52,000
veterinary project or whatever, particularly as vegans. And we see such horrible things. And I

848
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:57,760
want people to just really understand where people are coming from and to not be so, I need the peanut

849
01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:04,080
gallery to shut up. I would say, I would say to acknowledge that people that work in this field

850
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:10,640
need days off. Not all of us can be volunteers. To be a volunteer is a financial luxury that the

851
01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:16,640
vast majority of us that are professional caretakers don't have. I don't have a partner,

852
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:22,000
I don't have family money, I don't have, you know, like a big credit card limit. I, you know, like,

853
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:29,360
we, I can't be a volunteer, I do take a very small salary. We have a hard time even justifying that

854
01:29:29,360 --> 01:29:35,760
we pay our staff. And I think that's insane. Not everybody's in the same situation in every part

855
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:40,560
of the world. And we have to be really mindful of that. But just in general, like, understand that

856
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:45,840
this is a really traumatic job. And when you send people pictures of the dog meat trader, whatever,

857
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:52,880
you're constantly re, like, we see plenty of horrors. Like, we don't have any, any lack of that

858
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:59,680
in our, in our brains. And it's very, very stressful. And we also have to say no to a lot of animals.

859
01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:06,160
And that, that sticks with us our entire lives. I mean, I, I remember every time I said no to an

860
01:30:06,160 --> 01:30:11,840
animal, because I know that certain death. And people get very, very, very pushy online with

861
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:15,360
rescues. And it's just like, you have to take this animal, or I'm going to put them to sleep, or this

862
01:30:15,360 --> 01:30:20,240
person's going to get it and whatever. And sometimes people don't understand the lack of resources.

863
01:30:20,240 --> 01:30:23,920
Sometimes we just don't have quarantine space. Sometimes we just don't have the staff, or we

864
01:30:23,920 --> 01:30:28,880
don't have the money, we don't have the vets, we can't help. And we have to acknowledge and accept

865
01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:34,720
that we can't save everybody. And I think as long as everybody has that sort of understanding of the

866
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:41,520
individual humans that do this work that I do, we can all be a lot more compassionate towards them,

867
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:47,120
and ensure that they do have real breaks, that they do have a living wage, that they do have,

868
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:52,320
you know, adequate staff to make sure that they don't burn out. Burn out, I mean, in the United

869
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:58,080
States, the average person working in animal welfare and any sort of rescue is five and a half years.

870
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:03,920
I've done double that in Vietnam, I assure you it has taken its toll. Right. So I think people need

871
01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:09,840
to really understand that this is a burnout job, and to be kind to the people, and not just be like,

872
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:14,800
oh, you're an angel, and whatever. But then the moment we want to take a vacation, you're like,

873
01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:20,880
I can't believe you're taking a vacation. Yeah, well, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm going to museum today.

874
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:26,880
What are you gonna do about it? You know, as someone who works in the field of fundraising,

875
01:31:26,880 --> 01:31:34,880
let me add to what you said, you know, you want the nonprofits, the causes that you,

876
01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:43,360
you are supporting to be run by professionals that are well paid, and that who have the same,

877
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:49,120
you know, standards of employment that you have, because you want the best people behind your

878
01:31:49,120 --> 01:31:57,760
cause. You don't want, like, anybody coming in, and just doing whatever. This is not how

879
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:07,200
things get done. You need professional conditions. And that's something very counterintuitive. And

880
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:13,600
intuitive and it comes from, you know, this Christian background of, you know, sacrifice.

881
01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:20,640
Yeah, you're not doing the God's work or something like that. Right. We're being

882
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:26,560
No, we're people that have student loans. Yeah, we're humans that have health insurance.

883
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:32,240
We have to, we have to drive something, we have to have friends, we have to,

884
01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:36,400
we have to participate in the world like everybody else, or our job suppers. And I know that more

885
01:32:36,400 --> 01:32:41,200
than anybody, because for most of this 10 years, I didn't have any of that. And, you know, for the

886
01:32:41,200 --> 01:32:45,600
first three years, I didn't take a salary at all, because I was doing my master's, and I had a small

887
01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:50,800
income from student loans. And then I started my PhD. And so, which I had to quit because I

888
01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:56,960
didn't have time for. But ultimately, yeah, I got nearly 200 grand in student loan debt. It's not

889
01:32:56,960 --> 01:33:02,880
like, I'm in deep trouble. I'm in deep trouble for being in this job. But I live far away,

890
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:12,240
come and get me America, you know, like I'm not paid it. Don't tell them I'm here. But in general,

891
01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:17,040
I mean, I think that we need to professionalize the nonprofit world in the sense that like,

892
01:33:17,040 --> 01:33:21,760
people aren't going to do good if they can't live a normal life while doing good. We can make so

893
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:27,040
much more money in the private sector. If I just ran a vegan business, I would be rolling in it

894
01:33:27,040 --> 01:33:33,200
with the amount of effort and passion that I put into it. But instead, I'm working in a nonprofit,

895
01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:39,280
and I get nothing and people think I deserve nothing. And that is very frustrating.

896
01:33:39,280 --> 01:33:44,560
And also, I want people to think about what you are against, you know, the

897
01:33:47,040 --> 01:33:51,280
industry, but also the big problems that you're going against. You said,

898
01:33:51,280 --> 01:33:58,400
David versus Goliath situation, I try to get through a day without punching anyone. That's

899
01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:03,680
actually like if I get to the end of the day, and I'm like, you didn't scream at anybody,

900
01:34:03,680 --> 01:34:08,560
you didn't pull a knife on anyone, nobody got kicked in the face, you're doing great,

901
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:14,960
cat. Keep it up. Well, that's my job here. All the possible, you know, best resources

902
01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:22,560
behind you, you need everything in your arsenal to go against that big giant. So yeah, amazing.

903
01:34:23,120 --> 01:34:31,200
So let's stop this conversation here. Okay. And I would like to express truly how

904
01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:39,840
I respect what you do, and I admire what you do. And I think you're so strong for doing what you're

905
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:47,840
doing. And truly, thank you. Thank you for advancing the cause of animal welfare in Vietnam.

906
01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:55,840
And having taken the time to answer my questions and to explain to listeners,

907
01:34:56,480 --> 01:35:01,040
you know, what is happening there, and share your insight and experience.

908
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:05,440
It's been a valuable 10 years. I learned a lot. Yeah.

909
01:35:05,440 --> 01:35:12,320
Exactly. You're an expert now on this topic. Yeah, definitely. Your voice on that is truly

910
01:35:12,320 --> 01:35:18,800
precious. So thank you very much, cat. Thank you for letting me voice that I think it's not it's not

911
01:35:18,800 --> 01:35:24,560
often I get to express like the things that have happened here and discuss kind of the realities

912
01:35:24,560 --> 01:35:29,920
on the ground. So I appreciate it. Thank you everyone for listening. Make sure to spread the

913
01:35:29,920 --> 01:35:37,120
word on the good work of Vietnam Animal Aid by sharing this episode with family and friends.

914
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:44,640
Next week, I have a very special episode for you. I'm going to be talking with William Lowry,

915
01:35:45,200 --> 01:35:54,080
legal counsel for Animal Partizan, an organization labeled as a major extremist group by the animal

916
01:35:54,080 --> 01:36:02,640
industry, an organization suing the FBI. Subscribe now and don't miss out on this episode, which was

917
01:36:02,640 --> 01:36:11,440
a lot of fun to record. Finally, you can always reach me on Instagram at vegan report podcast.

918
01:36:11,440 --> 01:36:24,320
Thank you again, everyone for listening. Take care and see you next Tuesday.