Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.
If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure
where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with
passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special
contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Only a minority
of ordinary people made the life commitment to exclude animal exploitation and cruelty
from the way they live. To do so, they have made drastic changes in their diet, adopting a plant
based diet, most times against cultural norms, but also in making changes in the clothes they wear,
for instance, not wearing any leather or the way they entertain themselves, for example,
never visiting a zoo. Those people are called vegans and they deeply fascinate me. What does
make someone adopt such radical changes in their lives? How does one succeed at sustaining that
lifestyle despite societal norms? And why do so many vegans revert back to consuming animal
products? In the goal of finding answers to my questions, I met several people who have been
vegan for more than eight years. I had great conversations with them and I'm very happy to
share those conversations with you in an ongoing series on this podcast called Veteran Vegan.
Today, you are going to meet Justin. He's a musician from Florida and he became vegan
during the 1990s. So thank you very much, Justin, for accepting to do this again. We had problems
the first time. So this is our actually our second conversation, our second time trying to
make it happen. So thank you very much for your patience.
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
Great. So could you first introduce yourself?
Sure. My name is Justin. I live in St. Petersburg, Florida. I'm 40 years old and I've been vegan for
24 years. I am a co-owner with my wife and two partners of a spa and salon here in St. Petersburg.
And I guess that's about it.
Amazing. 24 years. Did you ever celebrate the number of years you've been vegan?
You've been vegan? No, I didn't really think about it too much. It didn't occur to me.
You bet every once in a while somebody will ask me how long I've been vegan. So I'm constantly
doing the math in my head. So now I have it on instant recall, but I never really like celebrated
any milestones. But I guess next year will be 25 years. So amazing. And something that I'm really
interested about is knowing why someone decided to make this drastic, a bit radical, but in a good
way change in one's life. So why did you decide to become vegan? And when was that? What was the
context? How did everything unfold? Well, I was vegetarian when I was younger. So I went vegetarian
when I was 13. And I think that started because even from a very young age, I remember when I was
a child kind of feeling bad about eating animals. I made the connection really early on. When I
would go to school in the morning, my mom would drive me to school and we would pass a farm and
stuff like that. I would see cows outside. And I knew it was the same animal that I would be eating
for dinner. And I always had that cognitive dissonance and I never really had a way to
reconcile it. So it's kind of funny when I was younger, my mom would tell people and me that I
was a semi-vegetarian. So that was a way to kind of feel better about it, even though I wasn't
actually doing anything. But being like eight, nine, 10 years old, I was like, oh yeah, that sounds
good. So by the time I turned 13, I was starting to think more independently and kind of making
my own decisions about my life. And it occurred to me that I could just go ahead and stop eating
meat. So I did. And fortunately, my parents were really supportive of it, despite them not being
vegetarian themselves. So it was kind of easy for me, I suppose. And as time went on, I was really
involved in the local punk scene. You know, there are a lot of punk shows and do local activism and
stuff like that. And some of the groups that I would hang out with were involved in vegetarian
and vegan activism. And I was exposed to veganism that way. So one of the things I distinctly
remember was reading the vegan outreach pamphlet, Go Vegan, or sorry, Why Vegan is the pamphlet.
And they actually still produce this now. But back then it was a little black and white pamphlet,
you know, you would get like the paper and staple them together and stuff. So I remember reading
that a few times. And I just always had it in the back of my head that, you know, the things I
learned about the dairy industry, and the egg industry just didn't really sit right with me.
And that's what ultimately made me decide to give it all up and go vegan. So prior to that, I was
one of these, you know, I can't go vegan, I love cheese too much kind of guys. So that's actually
the when we were talking yesterday, the last meal that I ever had before I went vegan was a bowl of
chili, vegetarian chili, and I shredded a ton of cheddar cheese on the top of it, which was like my
favorite thing, I would just eat cheddar cheese straight from the block. And then, you know, I
just I took a bite and I was like, that's it, I'm done, can't do it. So I dumped the whole thing out,
kind of never looked back, I suppose. Amazing. And something I did not ask you during our last
conversation was, what is exactly the link between the punk rock scene and veganism? I did not know
that there was a relationship there. Yeah, I suppose the maybe there's a small one, right?
It depends on what part of the punk scene you're involved in. So a lot of the music that I listened
to and was interested in at the time and still now was very influenced by political and social
issues. So kind of activist music, not just, you know, fast, aggressive, crazy music, but also
stuff with a message, ideologically driven. So I think you'll find within that scene, there are a
lot of people that are very involved, or at least conscious of different types of oppression and
exploitation, inequalities. And there's a lot of people speaking out against it. So these were
things that I was already kind of conscious of. And I think maybe that's part of the reason I
gravitated towards that community. And that just further reinforced the way that I felt about things
and kind of gave me an outlet for it. And then also exposed me to other people who had other
thoughts about it. And just, you know, kind of got me thinking and ultimately made some changes as
a result. It's a scene I don't know much about. And I think you're actively involved there. I
think you're a musician. Sure. Yeah, I am. I play in two bands, actually. So I have a band called
Wald City that I write the music and play guitar in and kind of a melodic hardcore punk band. And then
another couple of friends of mine were in a band called Ant Acid Trip, and I played drums in that
one as well. That's a little bit more on the metal side of it, but also very politically, socially
conscious. And actually, all of the members of Ant Acid Trip are vegan as well. It's kind of cool.
So it's easy when we, if we go on the road to play shows, you know, we don't have to worry about
where to eat. Well, there's a guitar behind you. And I'm asking you if you're a musician.
I mean, there's there's more than that. Okay, you can't see the rest of the wall.
Yeah, there's a few guitars. I bet. Yeah, I can see some cases. Great. And I will leave a link to
your website in the description. People want to check it out. And yeah, so you were talking about
how when you were a kid, you made, you made that connection, that key connection that every vegan
makes. And sometimes it can be very upsetting. But did you have any pets? Was it something you've
watched on TV, like maybe an anime or something like that? And the topic of that was about animals?
Was that like 100% came from you? Or was it also an outside influence that made you think about
animals? I can't think of any specific example of something that influenced me. But of course,
I had to have been influenced somehow. You know, you're a kid, you grow up, you're exposed to media
and pop culture. So I'm sure you know, maybe watching Bambi or something. I'm pretty old. So
I don't think anime was super popular over here back then. But um, yeah, I don't know, I always
had animals growing up. I had a cat from the time I was born up until I was maybe about 12 or 13.
We had a dog growing up had a rabbit. So I was, I was always like an animal lover, I guess. But I
can't point to any specific thing that helped me make the connection. It was just a thing that I
was aware of. And to be honest, I don't think that's especially novel. I think that most people
do make the connection. But they're really good at kind of pushing it to the back of their head
and not really thinking about it. I think that's pretty difficult for most people. And normal,
because obviously, that's consistently reinforced on a daily basis by the world around you. You
know, society is based around the exploitation of animals to a degree. And the only way that can
work is for everyone to collectively agree that this is something that's okay. So I think most
people recognize that the animals on your plate are the same as the animals that you see in farms
or on TV, even young children do. But there's a lot of pressure against the way that you see
animals. There's a lot of pressure against thinking about it kind of objectively in that sense.
And you use the word cognitive dissonance, the expression cognitive dissonance. I think it's a
great expression to describe that phenomenon. Amazing. So after having eaten that bowl of chili,
you decided to become vegan. How was your first years as a vegan? How did that transition from
being vegetarian to becoming vegan happen? I think that it wasn't that difficult to start.
It was more difficult than it would be today by a lot. Because back then, we didn't have vegan
restaurants, like nothing close to it, like nothing at all. Veganism wasn't a widely acknowledged
term or something that people knew about. I would have to explain what vegan meant any time that I
talked to anyone about it. It was not part of those guys at all. If I went to a restaurant,
you couldn't just ask somebody if something was vegan, which nowadays, still not 100%. But you can
occasionally do that. But mostly, I was cooking for myself and having to fend for myself. I learned
how to cook as a result of it. I made a lot of mistakes, learned by trial and error. I'm sure I
ate a lot of food that wasn't vegan too early on, and just kind of made my way through it. But I had
a good support system. As I mentioned before, my parents were very supportive and accepting of it.
They were not vegetarian by any means. We're a typical American household. We eat with every
single meal. My mom was accepting right off the bat. My dad was a little bit more cautious about
it. But once he realized that I was taking it seriously and knew what I was doing, he was fine
with it as well. I think I had a good support system with my friends too. At the time, a lot of my
friends were either vegetarian and or vegan. I was a little bit more of a vegetarian. I was
a little bit more of a vegan. I would say my transition was pretty easy overall. But looking
at it in today's context, it was probably pretty tough. So your expectations changed over the years.
Yeah, well, when I became vegan, I discovered with a bit of surprise and shock that a lot of the
vegan could be adapted to a vegan recipe. I mean, tomato sauce. You don't need the cheese. You don't
need the meat part. You can just eat that with pasta and that's about it. Did you have any
surprises when you became vegan? Something you did not expect about it or maybe some kind of
clash with culture and your everyday life? I think so. Less a clash with culture. I think that a lot
of what I ate was, as you said, just adapting the foods I would eat previously to be a vegetarian
version. One of the typical meals that my mom would make all the time was goulash. Not real
Hungarian goulash, but kind of American Midwestern version of goulash, which is elbow macaroni with
some sauteed onions and ground beef and garlic and some spices and a tomato sauce. I would cook the
exact same thing, but I would use tofu. I would buy tofu crumbles or something like that. Otherwise,
it would be the exact same dish. So I cooked a lot of stuff like that and was able to adapt a lot of
the things that I was already eating. One thing that kind of surprised me was how many new foods
I discovered as a result. One thing that kind of gets lost in the mix sometimes is people view
veganism or vegan diet as exclusionary or restrictive in some way because you're taking
foods out of your diet and not necessarily replacing them with anything, or at least that's
the premise. But in reality, what ends up happening is you take foods out of your diet, you cut out meat
and cheese and milk, dairy, eggs, that kind of stuff, and you start exploring all sorts of other
types of food. So I ended up getting into all types of Asian food. Prior to that, I had never eaten
Thai food before, Vietnamese food, lots of types of regional Chinese food, Korean food, Indian food,
Ethiopian food, stuff like that, where now this makes up a lot of my diet. I eat stuff from all
over the world, a wide variety of stuff, all sorts of new weird vegetables and fruits and stuff that
I'd never eaten before. This morning I was just eating some passion fruit that I found out in our
alleyway where I walk our dog, there's a passion fruit tree at the end of it. So there's passion
fruit there all the time. So now I take them home and I cut those up and save the pulp. I make juice
out of it and I would eat the leftovers, stuff that is totally new to me. So I think that was
the most surprising thing is how much my horizons expanded once I went vegan and did not constrict.
And that was also my experience. I mean, you are forced to learn about nutrition. You are forced
to look for new sources of recipes and such. And all of a sudden your plate becomes colorful
and it's an amazing experience. But veganism is not just about food. It's also about the rest,
like the clothing. How was that in terms of adapting yourself?
That was a little different. I had a lot of clothing at the time, like leather and wool
and stuff like that. And I think I just kind of phased that out over time. Within the first couple
of years being vegan, I became really uncomfortable with that. I know there's a lot of people that are
vegan that are okay with purchasing second-hand leather and wool and things of that nature,
or wearing stuff that they have currently. The idea being that instead of buying new products
and driving consumption, which also has a negative ecological impact, buying something that
is already used or that you already have. To me, it still kind of reinforces this idea that animals
can be clothing. If you wear a leather jacket, to me, if it's second-hand or if I've owned it for
30 years or whatever, it doesn't matter because I'm still showing people that this is an article
of clothing that is something I chose to wear. So for me, I just don't view leather or wool or other
types of animal clothing any different than I would as eating roadkill or something.
There's maybe no ethical issue there per se, but it reinforces the belief that animals are here as
commodities for humans. So I think it took me a couple of years to wrap my head around that,
and I was able to phase all of that out. Finding products that were cruelty-free,
not tested on animals, was just kind of a trial and error approach over time.
You get better at these things as you go along. You're never going to be perfect. You're going
to make mistakes. You're going to end up buying something or eating something or doing something
that in some way is not 100% ethical. So I think the goal is just to make the best decisions you
can and try and steadily improve when possible. So I think I've had that kind of mindset for a
while. When I was younger, I was probably a little more hard-line about some things,
but everyone's a little more extreme when they're younger too.
Yeah. I had that same idea that you can purchase secondhand leather boots. There is no ethical
concern about that. But recently someone told me, well, yeah, but what if someone looks at
those shoes and think, oh, those are beautiful shoes. I want the same. And then they ask you,
where did you find them? And what if you end up promoting that brand, even though you're wearing
something secondhand? And I wanted to share that because that was the first time I thought, oh,
there is a problem with that practice. Interesting. And in terms of, you become vegan,
you make all of those changes. And you were talking about the perception of animals also changing.
Did you feel like you were trying to discipline yourself? Like you're trying to
force yourself into a new habit or was it just a change of perception? Because some vegans have
told me, it's just that meat was not food anymore. It was not the definition of what food is supposed
to be. And that was just a change of perception and becoming vegan went easy after that. Was it
the same experience for you? Yes. I think a change of perception, absolutely. So I never felt like I
was holding myself to some sort of strict regimen or discipline or anything like that. I never felt
that. I just had a change of perception, which is related to the reason why I won't wear secondhand
leather or things of that nature. Because for me, those aren't clothes. It's just still dead animal
skin. Even if they're fashion into something that looks like clothes. A friend texted me yesterday
and sent me an article from NPR about how lab grown chicken is now cleared for consumer consumption
in the United States. And he asked what my opinion was if I thought it was vegan or not. He's not
vegan by the way, or vegetarian. And I told him that I personally would have no interest in eating
it just because for me, there's no desire to eat meat. When I ate meat and ate animal products,
I didn't stop eating them because I didn't like them. I stopped eating them because I had an
ethical issue with them. But over time, that kind of, that gulf grew. And now I didn't see any of
these things as food anymore. So the thought of eating meat to me is not appealing at all, even
if it was at one time, just because I don't see it as meat anymore. For the record, I'm a hundred
percent for all of the lab grown meats. I think it's going to be a massive net positive for animals,
but it's just one of those things where I'm going to pass. I'm doing okay with what I eat now. But
yeah, I think it's a change of perception. That's it. I never felt like it was, there were challenges,
but it was never self-imposed challenges. For me, it was just, this isn't food. I'm not going to eat
it. No problem. And what about realistic meat like beyond meat? Does that appeal to you?
Yeah, I would say that it's not my first choice. I eat beyond meat quite a bit and impossible on
occasion. I do like those, but if you had me go down a list of my favorite meat products,
favorite burgers and such, it's products that are not even available anymore just because they
weren't that popular and they're gone. I really like those sunshine burgers when those were slow
around the sunflower seed ones and my favorite burgers of all time. I can't remember who made
them, but they were called Ocara patties. Ocara is the leftover soy pulp after you make soy milk.
So it's the like bean curd skin on the top and you can mash all this stuff up and make a really
interesting patty with it. So they were kind of like chicken like patties. You would cook in the
toaster. I love that stuff. But nowadays the market share is dominated by beyond and impossible. So I
do eat quite a lot of those and I like them just fine. And I don't find them particularly meaty.
I think impossible, probably a little bit more so. Beyond burgers are probably my favorite as far as
the realistic meats go, but they don't bother me at all because I know what's in them.
And are you still attracted by the scent of like roasted chicken or something like that?
No, not at all. My wife is she's attracted to like the scent of fried chicken of all things,
which I think is probably more the batter and the spices that you smell. But for me,
I associate it with the chicken. She's been vegan for a long time too. So she has no desire to eat
any of these things, but the smell she still likes. But for me, that doesn't not appeal like
maybe like some barbecue stuff because the smoked wood chips, you know, but that's not really
the barbecue per se. It's the method of cooking. Well, that's the thing about meat. You know, meat
is flesh, but cooked. You know, there are spices, there are, you add sauce, you add oils and butter
and all sorts of things. It's not really, nobody is, well, not nobody. There are some people
who are attracted by, you know, flesh, raw flesh, but nobody is really, you know, smells a raw
chicken, something and thinks, oh, that smells yummy. I don't think so. Yeah. So you're attracted
by the cooking that comes with meat, you know, the end product, so to speak. Okay. I have a question
about, you know, you brought up your wife. Is your wife vegan? She is vegan. Yeah. She was vegetarian
when we met and became vegan shortly thereafter. She had gone vegan before and kind of had failed
attempts at it. And I think one of the best things you could do if you're vegan and need support is
have a partner that's vegan as well, because then it's just kind of, it's so much easier. You know,
I really feel for friends that I have that are vegan or even vegetarian who have a partner who's
not just because I know it can make things a little more difficult. Yeah, it's true. I mean,
you have the social pressure outside of your house, but if you also have that social pressure inside,
it becomes kind of difficult. So I want to ask you about a study that came out and showed how
84% of vegans and vegetarians stop being vegans and vegetarians. 34% of them are vegan.
After only a few months. And that's something that agreed with my perception of reality.
If you go on YouTube and start researching veganism, you will end up, I mean, 100%
certain you will end up watching a video of an ex-vegan. The internet is full of that.
I think there's even a subreddit called ex-vegans. So my first question for you is,
do you agree with that assessment that most people who become vegan stop being vegan?
I do agree with that. I think that I've seen those studies as well. And everything you've said
jives with my experience as well, both personally and just up online. I've seen the ex-vegan
communities. I've seen the videos for ex-vegans. I've read the articles about celebrities that were
big vegans that decided that they didn't feel good anymore. So they started eating fish and all of a
sudden they magically feel great again. So yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I'll wait for your
second question because I have a few more things to chime in on with that.
Well, how do you explain that? What's happening here?
I think there are a few different causes. And I think one of them kind of innocently enough is
that people don't really do their due diligence when they go vegan. I'm not a proponent of just
saying like, yeah, go vegan. You're going to be fine. It's like absolutely nothing to worry about.
Go for it. I do think you should go for it. I do think you should, anytime you're radically
changing what you consume, since diet's such an important part of your life, you should do a
little bit of research and learn about what you're doing. So a really common thing that happens, I'm
sure everyone can relate to this, that has friends that have been vegan or vegetarian at one point
that aren't anymore, is people go vegan and they're like, wow, Oreos are vegan, French fries are
vegan, potato chips are vegan. That's what I'm going to eat all day. I'm going to eat toast and
chips and they just eat junk food. It's a really nutritionally incomplete diet. And they just feel
like crap. And that's pretty typical. And I think that a lot of times you hear from the ex-vegans
that are like, I started eating fish and magically my health got better. It's usually something to
that effect. And then I think there's the other extreme version of that, which is a lot of people
are really persuaded by these claims that a really extreme, super clean, entirely whole foods or
even raw foods, plant-based diet is the only diet you should be eating. And they jump off the deep
end and go straight into that. And all of a sudden you have somebody who's eating 2,000 calories a
day, and now they're eating 1,200 calories a day of raw fruits and nuts and stuff like that.
And it's just not enough. You're taking a lot of stuff, a lot of nutrients out of your diet,
good and bad stuff, and you're replacing it with insufficient alternative nutrients. So I think that
you can make almost any diet a healthy one if you're doing it the right way. You can eat a heavy
meat, dairy, and egg diet and absolutely be in abysmal health and feel terrible all the time
because you're eating the worst possible food. But I'm not delusional. There are a lot of people
that eat these foods that are in really fantastic shape because they eat about half the amount of
food they eat. They eat a balanced diet, they watch their calories, they exercise, all these things.
So the same can be applied to a vegan diet. I think you should be reasonable about it,
do a little bit of research, learn a little bit about nutrition, and don't be afraid to supplement
as well. Vitamin D3 and B12 supplements and omega-3 DHAEPA supplements are really good for vegans.
And these are things that are common deficiencies in vegans and things that aren't commonly found
in plant-based foods. Now that's not to say that this somehow invalidates a vegan diet because
supplementation is recommended because after all, vitamin D and B12 supplementation is recommended
for the entire U.S. population. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but here these are very common
deficiencies. But it's easy and it's cheap to supplement and make sure that you get a full
balanced diet. So I think doing a little bit of research is the way to go. Apologies for being
long-winded, but the last part of that is I think that a lot of people treat veganism as a fad diet.
So veganism is not a diet. Veganism is a lifestyle that's based on eating a vegan diet, a fully
plant-based diet, and eliminating any types of contributions to animal suffering and exploitation
whenever possible. So like we talked about earlier, that means not wearing animal clothing or using
products that are tested on animals, not going to rodeos and circuses and dog races and stuff like
that. I think a lot of people look at veganism as a diet, as a way to either live forever with
this magical miracle cure-all health diet, or it's just something they saw on YouTube and they
thought it seemed cool. So as a result, they do this diet, they don't get the results they're
looking for, and they're like, okay, on to the next thing. I think a lot of those people are people
that have done keto diets, paleo diets, vegan, they bounce around and they try different stuff.
So I think that it's not an indictment of veganism. I think it's just an observation of
how people navigate diets and things of that nature. And maybe on our side, we should do a
better job at first of all, preparing people, giving them the tools needed to make that transition,
but also not put too much attention on the health side, in the sense of not selling veganism with
some pseudoscience health benefits. We should focus on the ethical argument and put all of our
energy in there. There is a consequential argument to be made where if everyone decided to become
vegan for health reasons, why does it matter if the result says that there is less suffering of
animals? And true, I will give that to people, but this is not reality. This is not a thought
experiment. The reality is, I agree with you, many people become vegan for the wrong reasons,
and then they end up leaving. And it just causes a lot of harm. So how would you,
if someone is listening and is not vegan, is maybe considering or is open-minded to becoming vegan,
what would you say to that person? Well, I want to kind of circle back to something you mentioned
a moment ago, going vegan for the wrong reasons. And I don't think there are any wrong reasons to
go vegan. I encourage anyone to go vegan for any reason whatsoever. From a strictly utilitarian
standpoint, it doesn't matter to me why someone's vegan. If they decide to cut animal products out
of their life, it's a good thing. However, I strongly agree with you that ethical-based
vegans have a way higher success rate. So I think that if you perform these same studies and you've
broken into groups of what's your primary motivation for being vegan, the ones that are
ethically driven are not going to have an 84% or whatever it was failure rate, whereas the ones
that go vegan for health are going to be probably maybe higher than that even. I think that it's
important. Veganism has an activist component built into it. So I think it's okay for people to be,
to eat a plant-based diet but not be vegan if that's what they want to do. You know,
they don't consider themselves activists and they're just more focused on eating a vegan diet.
I think that that's one thing. But if you want to be vegan, there is an ethical approach built into
it. There is a degree of activism there. And I think that if you want to be an activist in any
capacity, you owe it to yourself and to the group you're advocating for to not argue your weakest
point. And I think that when it comes to veganism, that the health benefits are the weakest point
because they're not mutually exclusive or not exclusive to veganism. And they're not always
what they're purported to be. I don't think you can just go vegan and all of your health problems
will disappear. I don't think you can go vegan and you'll never get cancer. You know, these things
are just not true. So I think that having realistic expectations going in sets yourself up for success
rather than failure. And I think that having a strong environmental and more importantly,
ethical drive when it comes to veganism, you're more likely to stick with it and have a reason to
navigate the tough times or societal pressure or any other things that might make it challenging
to be vegan. So what I would say to somebody who is open to becoming vegan, who isn't already,
is I would tell them to just go for it first off, like absolutely do it. But don't be afraid to do
a little bit of research, learn a little bit about nutrition, learn a little bit about why you're
doing what you're doing. Meet up with other people, like-minded individuals, find social
media communities for people that are vegan or interested in becoming vegan. I think you'll
find that there are a lot of people there that are really eager to help support you. So for me,
if a new vegan or an aspiring vegan were to get in touch with me and just say, hey,
I'm thinking about going vegan, do you have any advice? I would be overjoyed to help out. I'd
be thrilled. So I would stop what I'm doing and say, yeah, let's talk about it. And let's figure
it out because it's so doable. I mean, it's so easy right now. Depending on where you live in the
world, most places that you live, it's like trivial to eat a vegan diet. So I would say, don't worry
about the restrictions or the difficulty. You'll get there. And don't worry about perfection
either. That's another part of it. I should have mentioned this earlier, but now is as good a time
as ever. I think that this quest for perfection is something that really hurts vegans. I think that
a lot of people have an all or nothing mindset. And I understand that too. When you first go vegan,
when you first get turned on to all of these injustices in the world and you can't believe
how bad it is for animals and factory farms and stuff, it's really easy to look at that and be
like, I have to do this a hundred percent and there's absolutely no compromise ever.
So what'll happen is you'll try it and you'll mess up. You'll accidentally go to a restaurant,
you'll eat something that has cheese in it, you won't realize it. Or you'll buy something,
you'll get home and realize it's got whey in it or something like that. I think it's really
important not beat yourself up over that and to be realistic and to be kind to yourself and realize
that you make mistakes, you can never be perfect. Try and learn a little bit more every day and do
a little bit better every day. And by the end of it, you'll be fine. So yeah, I would say,
don't be afraid to go for it. Find the community, find some support, people that are willing to help
you out, do a little bit of minor research to find out why you're doing what you're doing,
learn a little bit about nutrition and then just don't beat yourself up. You'll get there.
That's good advice. And if you can't become vegan for whatever reason, and there are people out
there for health reasons, for economical reasons, or even for cultural or family reasons, can't
become vegan. You can always reduce your consumption of animal products. I mean,
this is something relatively easy to do. One day a week, have plant-based meals. Don't go to the zoo.
It's not hard. Or don't go to the pet shop. And if you want a dog, go look for,
go visit your local shelter and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's true. I struggle
with that a little bit. I'll be honest with you because from an ideological standpoint,
I do think that it is somewhat of an all or nothing proposition, not to contradict myself earlier.
I do think there are any reduction in animal suffering is good. And I do encourage people to
reduce their meat consumption, their dairy and egg consumption, adopt, don't shop, stuff like that.
And I think that all of that is good. I don't think that's the end goal. I think we probably
agree on that. But I will say that I struggle with it because on one hand, I want to just advocate
purely for veganism and say, yeah, fine, meatless Monday is like, you wouldn't decide to not commit
homicide one day out of the week, which I realize is kind of a ridiculous extreme position there.
But on the other hand, I realized that there is a lot of benefit in people reducing. And I also
realized that I didn't go vegan overnight. And I think that that's really important. I've been a
new vegan too, right? And I think a lot of people can relate to this. When you're a new vegan,
you're really fired up and you're just like, can't believe the injustices of the world. So when other
people treat it as a casual thing that they can commit to, they're like, oh, I'm going to go
vegan. And just because it's a casual thing that they can kind of dip in and out of, that's
borderline offensive to you. And I can relate to that because I've been there. But as I get older
and lamer probably, I realized that there's some benefit to that. And I want to kind of meet people
where they are and then encourage them to do more. I definitely have had friends in the past that
when I was younger and more hardline about things, I probably turned them away from veganism
they were trying to reduce their meat consumption and try and reduce their animal products consumption,
but it wasn't good enough for me. And I'm sure that I let them know that plenty of times. So,
you know, I don't think that's always doing the best you can for the animals, even if it seems
like it is. So ultimately, I agree with you, but it is something that I do have a little bit of
internal conflict about. And that makes me think of something Dr. Jensvold, I did an episode on that.
She's a caretaker for fauna sanctuary. And she's a she is a researcher, she studies chimps. And she
was telling me how, you know, there are many countries who don't want to recognize chimps,
and great apes as people, although they are very close to human beings, and very complex creatures,
because if they recognize chimps, and greater apes as people, why should they not recognize
monkeys? And then if they recognize monkeys, why would they not recognize and the list goes on and
on, and then you have opened the door to all of the animal kingdom. And yeah, I feel like
this is the same. This is like, we, you open the door to a lifestyle where you have, you consume
less animal products. And at the end, we, this is not the goal. The end is to eliminate all of that
all of that animal exploitation we are doing. So made me think of that. Now, I want to try to,
you know, I want to ask you exactly. Why do you think you became vegan? Is it for because you
have something innate in you that made it so happen? Or do you think that veganism influences
more the person who adopts it, and then it changes you into you were talking how, you know,
you were intense in your animal advocacy. And that was around when you adopted veganism into
your life. Because that's, you know, when you think about it, there's no real comparison to be made
for vegan people, you know, there are not a lot of people out there who make such drastic changes
in their lives in order to embrace some ethical code. And you could, you know, think maybe about
religious groups, you know, if you convert to and, you know, become orthodox Jewish or something
like that, then, of course, you will make drastic changes in your life. But veganism is not religion.
Although some critics will disagree, but it's not religion. It's it goes across many cultures,
of course, transcends gender, you know, you have vegans of all horizons. So
I'm trying to understand what is it that makes 1% of the planet embrace that ethical code?
And the relationship of influences between, you know, veganism and, and who you are?
Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. So I think this kind of relates to your question
earlier about how many people become vegan and stop being vegan. So the reason there's such a
high rate, a lot of the reasons I mentioned were ones where people are quote unquote, doing it
wrong, which is probably unfair, because people have unrealistic expectations, they jump into it,
don't get the results that they want, you know, and maybe those were all of the reasons that they were
aware of, right. But I think another really big issue is that there's a lot of pushback from the
world around you from society, from friends, family, work, your community, all of these,
in many cases are telling you veganism is unnecessary. It's an extremist position. It's
a religion. It's, you know, something that we don't need to do. It's not helpful. And I think
that these are kind of defense mechanisms that a lot of people have for confronting that cognitive
dissonance we discussed earlier. So to answer your question about whether I went vegan because of the
way I was, or if I kind of became the way that I am, because I am vegan, that makes sense. I think
it's a combination. And I do think that a big part of it is the reason that I went vegan and stayed
vegan is because of who I am fundamentally. I've never been a person who shied away from being
different or being an outsider, or being the only one in a group who has a certain position, as long
as it's something I truly believe in. If I'm in a group of 100 people, and I'm the only one that
thinks that I'm right about something, I'm going to listen to everyone else, and I'm going to
consider their positions. But I'm not afraid to, you know, be the only person in the room who feels
away about something. That said, I do consider other positions. I don't think that I always have
it right. I probably get it right some of the time, hopefully. But I think that I've always been kind
of headstrong in that sense, and self-reliant. I haven't really looked to others for validation as
often as some people might. And I don't think that that makes me better at it, or better at anything
in general. It's just a personality trait. You know, I'm just observing how I am. So I think that
a lot of people aren't as comfortable doing that, which is probably really normal and typical. And
it makes it a lot harder. So, you know, I think that explains some portion of the vegans who are
no longer vegan, is that they, it became too hard for them to constantly have to explain, no, no,
I don't eat that. Here's why. Yes, I get enough protein. No, I'm not deficient in this, or whatever.
You know, for a lot of people, it gets tiresome. It wears them out. So for me, that doesn't wear
me out. I'll never get tired of it. And if people ask me, I'm patient, and I'll give them the time
of day, and I'll explain why I'm vegan, and it's no problem. So I would say it's more the former.
It's more that I'm vegan because of how I am. But I've been vegan for so long, more than half my life,
that it has informed the way that I view the world. So it's kind of shaped the lens through
which I view the world, for better or for worse. You know, I think a lot of times,
it's nice to see veganism becoming more and more mainstream. It's so cool to be able to just walk
into a restaurant now, and there's items on the menu clearly marked as vegan, which seems like such
a trivial, minor thing, that as somebody who has been vegan since the late 90s, it's huge. I mean,
like, the fact that the word vegan appears on a menu is a success. That's a triumph for veganism.
And it's a testament to how veganism is becoming more mainstream by the day, and how it's become
more broadly accepted. People are viewing veganism as something that's not extreme, or just totally
nuts, but something that's attainable and normal, and they have friends and family members who are
vegan. So this is objectively good. You know, at the same time, it is tough dealing with being
surrounded by people that you care about and respect and love that don't share your values,
or maybe worse, they do share your values, but fail to act on them. That's tough to deal with.
And I think that that also takes a particular personality type to be able to weather that.
So that also goes back to what we talked about with knowing why you're doing it, why you're in it.
So for me, there have been times where I've struggled with that, and it's been really
challenging to navigate that. You know, some of the closest people in my life are not even
vegetarian, let alone vegan. And these are, you know, smart, compassionate people who I truly
respect. And for some reason, they haven't come to the same conclusion that I have. And I have to
reconcile that with my respect to them. So it's a little bit tough, right? And I don't think that
that comes easy for anyone. And for some people, it's probably an insurmountable challenge. So
that veganism has affected me in that way that I think more about these kind of things.
Yeah, I've probably always thought about them to a degree, but it's just more on my radar. And I
think that the average person, this is not something that's in their day-to-day thoughts.
And I have a controversial question for you. And that's something I have been struggling with.
Would you support a law that would prohibit the consumption of animal products?
That's a tough question. I think that the easy answer would be to say yes. I don't know. I'd
have to really think about that to give you a good answer. I don't think that that's as simple,
because I think that prohibition in general doesn't work for anything. You know, look at in the United
States, the war on drugs, which has been a failure since its inception, and has only been a failure
since its inception, and has only criminalized a certain percentage of the population and not
fixed anything. It hasn't made anything better. So I think that education and transparency,
and a broader shift in social norms, it would have a much more lasting long-term effect,
and short-term effect. And it would be doing things the right way. I think that a legal
prohibition would not get the result that you want. It certainly would create a black market,
a large black market for animal products. On the surface, I'd like to say yeah, make it illegal,
I guess. But I think that's kind of like a knee-jerk reaction, and most likely counterproductive.
I think that we need a large paradigm shift in society. We need people to talk about factory
farming and animal exploitation, and we need good faith arguments. How many times have you been hit
with people debating you about how it's impossible to change anything, so why bother? Or by eating a
vegan diet, you're contributing to deaths of small animals when they harvest grains, ignoring the
fact that the majority of these grains harvested for consumption go to feeding livestock that are
then killed to feed humans. I think that if we have a more open, transparent, open, open,
if we have a more open, transparent dialogue about this kind of stuff, and less bad actors in the
space, then we can probably make a lot more progress than by passing a law that outlaws it.
I agree. I agree. And this will not happen tomorrow for listeners who are panicking.
I mean, if any politician even approaches that idea, it will be political suicide. Yeah.
No chance. No chance. Even in a progressive place like California or something like that.
That's not talking about the lobby, the meat and milk, dairy and meat lobby. Anyway. So finally,
what is the one thing you want listeners to know about veganism after this whole conversation,
where we touch on so many aspects? If there was one thing you want listeners to retain
after this conversation, what would it be? I think it would be that veganism is not an extreme
and unattainable lifestyle at all, not even close. If you live in rural Philippines, it's going to
be a little harder. But for the majority of the people probably listening or watching,
you probably live near a supermarket. You probably have restaurants in your area that have a vegan
dish or two. Cooking is fun. You can learn how to do it. It's pretty easy. So I would just say that
there's a lot of buildup. There's a lot of hype about how veganism is some sort of extreme thing
that only the most hardcore animal rights activists can do. It's not. It's just a normal
thing. People ask me all the time about how do I do it? I don't know. I go to the store and I buy
groceries and I go home and I cook them. And then I go out and eat at a restaurant. I live the exact
same lifestyle that everyone else that I know lives. I just do it without animal products.
And I think that that's probably the strongest case that you could make for adopting a vegan
lifestyle is that if you can live a lifestyle that is good and fulfilling and convenient and
normal, and you can do that without unnecessarily contributing to additional animal exploitation
and suffering, then why wouldn't you do it? It literally is a pick one scenario.
And it doesn't have to be more expensive or more cumbersome. It doesn't have to be more extreme.
This is why I always encourage new vegans to not worry about really, really extreme stuff like raw
veganism or I'm only eating organic foods or whatever. Just cut animal products out of your
diet. Eat some normal stuff. You'll be okay. It's not extreme. It's just normal. So that's
kind of the main point I'd like to get across is that at first it might seem like a pretty big
shift because especially if you eat a typical American diet like I did and like so many other
people did and do, you're eating meat every meal. You're eating dairy products multiple times a day.
Eggs, that's like the main dish for breakfast. It's going to be a big shift at first. You'll need
to get a little bit used to it, but very quickly you'll realize this is just a totally normal
lifestyle. I don't do anything different than anyone else that I know does other than the fact
that the foods that I eat are plant derived instead of animal derived. That's it. And then I just
make decisions that don't contribute to animal suffering whenever possible. All of our animals
that we have are adopted from a shelter. All of our clothes are made out of renewable textiles
for the most part. I try and make sure that I buy clothes that are ethically produced in terms of
human labor as well. I mean, it extends beyond. It's just trying to do better and be compassionate
and make good decisions that affect you and the people around you and the world around you
positively. So I apologize for the very long-winded answer to a concise question, but
I think that's it. It's just like veganism is not that big of a deal. Just do it and you'll see
over time. It's totally normal. That's what every podcast host wants. Just one question
and the guest just speaks the rest of the time. Yeah. I mean, just doing this podcast,
people can see that vegans are ordinary people. There's nothing extreme. I'm just talking
personally. I'm a creature of comfort. I'm so glad that I became vegan when it was so easy. I don't
know what I would have done in the 90s. But yeah, it's kind of easy when you live in North America,
when you have the choice that we have now, right now in this era and with all the resources out
there. So don't look for vegan models and examples on YouTube among the raw vegans and the loudest
voices in the community. Most vegans are just ordinary people and they're just living ordinary
lives. Nothing extraordinary about us. So Justin, did you want to add something?
Yeah, I want to add one really brief thing. I'm going to give a plug for a service that I use all
the time. And the only reason why is because this kind of brings it right back to what we were
talking about. Happy Cal is a website. They have an app as well, happycal.com, I believe. An app
just called Happy Cal. And it's an invaluable resource if you don't know where to start or
places that you can find vegan food. I travel a lot. I travel internationally when I get a chance
as well. That's one of the hobbies of my wife and I. And I've traveled to 20 something countries
all during the time that I've been vegan. And I've traveled through places that are famously not
vegan, like South Korea or Japan, Cambodia, parts of Mexico, France. And invariably I can just pull
up the Happy Cal app and boom, there's a restaurant within walking distance that has at least one
really good vegan option. So especially for new vegans, if you're just like, what do I do? Where
do I start? Just look on Happy Cal and you might be surprised. You're going to find some places
around you that you didn't even know were vegan. So that's not so much a final thought. It's just
like a little pro tip, but I use it more times than you would believe. I'm on Happy Cal all the time.
I will check it out 100%. I mean, thank you for this blog. I will add a link in the description.
This is an essential tool I did not know about in my eight years.
Well, let's put it this way. I think you're from Quebec, right?
Yes.
So I did a trip to Montreal and my goal was I wanted to eat vegan poutine every day of the trip
that I was there. So my resource was Happy Cal. I went to Happy Cal and I looked for every restaurant
on there that served poutine and I successfully did it. I gained about five pounds on the trip
but I did it. I pulled it off.
I was going to say this was not a healthy challenge.
No, not at all.
But that's amazing. I mean, yeah, I will check it out and I will go and try it in downtown Montreal
and I will be thinking about you and your poutine challenge. So again, for the second time now,
thank you, Justin, for having answered my questions, for having shared your experience
and the insights you gain throughout your vegan journey.
Yeah, it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun both times.
Thank you everyone for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it with family and
friends, offer them a window into the life of a vegan. I think you will really love next week's
episode. We are traveling to Vietnam of all countries to meet Catherine, who is the founder
and director of Vietnam Animal, Ed and Rescue, the only animal sanctuary of the country.
And we are going to talk about everything from the dog and cat meat trade to the cultural clash
regarding animal welfare. It's a passionate conversation. I simply don't want you to miss it.
So subscribe now to the podcast. Thank you again for listening. Take care and see you next week.
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