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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.

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If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure

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where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with

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passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special

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contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Only a minority

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of ordinary people made the life commitment to exclude animal exploitation and cruelty

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from the way they live. To do so, they have made drastic changes in their diet, adopting a plant

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based diet, most times against cultural norms, but also in making changes in the clothes they wear,

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for instance, not wearing any leather or the way they entertain themselves, for example,

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never visiting a zoo. Those people are called vegans and they deeply fascinate me. What does

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make someone adopt such radical changes in their lives? How does one succeed at sustaining that

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lifestyle despite societal norms? And why do so many vegans revert back to consuming animal

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products? In the goal of finding answers to my questions, I met several people who have been

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vegan for more than eight years. I had great conversations with them and I'm very happy to

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share those conversations with you in an ongoing series on this podcast called Veteran Vegan.

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Today, you are going to meet Justin. He's a musician from Florida and he became vegan

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during the 1990s. So thank you very much, Justin, for accepting to do this again. We had problems

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the first time. So this is our actually our second conversation, our second time trying to

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make it happen. So thank you very much for your patience.

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Yeah, it's my pleasure.

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Great. So could you first introduce yourself?

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Sure. My name is Justin. I live in St. Petersburg, Florida. I'm 40 years old and I've been vegan for

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24 years. I am a co-owner with my wife and two partners of a spa and salon here in St. Petersburg.

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And I guess that's about it.

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Amazing. 24 years. Did you ever celebrate the number of years you've been vegan?

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You've been vegan? No, I didn't really think about it too much. It didn't occur to me.

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You bet every once in a while somebody will ask me how long I've been vegan. So I'm constantly

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doing the math in my head. So now I have it on instant recall, but I never really like celebrated

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any milestones. But I guess next year will be 25 years. So amazing. And something that I'm really

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interested about is knowing why someone decided to make this drastic, a bit radical, but in a good

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way change in one's life. So why did you decide to become vegan? And when was that? What was the

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context? How did everything unfold? Well, I was vegetarian when I was younger. So I went vegetarian

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when I was 13. And I think that started because even from a very young age, I remember when I was

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a child kind of feeling bad about eating animals. I made the connection really early on. When I

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would go to school in the morning, my mom would drive me to school and we would pass a farm and

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stuff like that. I would see cows outside. And I knew it was the same animal that I would be eating

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for dinner. And I always had that cognitive dissonance and I never really had a way to

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reconcile it. So it's kind of funny when I was younger, my mom would tell people and me that I

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was a semi-vegetarian. So that was a way to kind of feel better about it, even though I wasn't

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actually doing anything. But being like eight, nine, 10 years old, I was like, oh yeah, that sounds

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good. So by the time I turned 13, I was starting to think more independently and kind of making

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my own decisions about my life. And it occurred to me that I could just go ahead and stop eating

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meat. So I did. And fortunately, my parents were really supportive of it, despite them not being

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vegetarian themselves. So it was kind of easy for me, I suppose. And as time went on, I was really

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involved in the local punk scene. You know, there are a lot of punk shows and do local activism and

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stuff like that. And some of the groups that I would hang out with were involved in vegetarian

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and vegan activism. And I was exposed to veganism that way. So one of the things I distinctly

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remember was reading the vegan outreach pamphlet, Go Vegan, or sorry, Why Vegan is the pamphlet.

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And they actually still produce this now. But back then it was a little black and white pamphlet,

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you know, you would get like the paper and staple them together and stuff. So I remember reading

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that a few times. And I just always had it in the back of my head that, you know, the things I

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learned about the dairy industry, and the egg industry just didn't really sit right with me.

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And that's what ultimately made me decide to give it all up and go vegan. So prior to that, I was

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one of these, you know, I can't go vegan, I love cheese too much kind of guys. So that's actually

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the when we were talking yesterday, the last meal that I ever had before I went vegan was a bowl of

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chili, vegetarian chili, and I shredded a ton of cheddar cheese on the top of it, which was like my

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favorite thing, I would just eat cheddar cheese straight from the block. And then, you know, I

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just I took a bite and I was like, that's it, I'm done, can't do it. So I dumped the whole thing out,

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kind of never looked back, I suppose. Amazing. And something I did not ask you during our last

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conversation was, what is exactly the link between the punk rock scene and veganism? I did not know

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that there was a relationship there. Yeah, I suppose the maybe there's a small one, right?

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It depends on what part of the punk scene you're involved in. So a lot of the music that I listened

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to and was interested in at the time and still now was very influenced by political and social

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issues. So kind of activist music, not just, you know, fast, aggressive, crazy music, but also

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stuff with a message, ideologically driven. So I think you'll find within that scene, there are a

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lot of people that are very involved, or at least conscious of different types of oppression and

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exploitation, inequalities. And there's a lot of people speaking out against it. So these were

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things that I was already kind of conscious of. And I think maybe that's part of the reason I

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gravitated towards that community. And that just further reinforced the way that I felt about things

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and kind of gave me an outlet for it. And then also exposed me to other people who had other

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thoughts about it. And just, you know, kind of got me thinking and ultimately made some changes as

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a result. It's a scene I don't know much about. And I think you're actively involved there. I

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think you're a musician. Sure. Yeah, I am. I play in two bands, actually. So I have a band called

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Wald City that I write the music and play guitar in and kind of a melodic hardcore punk band. And then

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another couple of friends of mine were in a band called Ant Acid Trip, and I played drums in that

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one as well. That's a little bit more on the metal side of it, but also very politically, socially

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conscious. And actually, all of the members of Ant Acid Trip are vegan as well. It's kind of cool.

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So it's easy when we, if we go on the road to play shows, you know, we don't have to worry about

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where to eat. Well, there's a guitar behind you. And I'm asking you if you're a musician.

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I mean, there's there's more than that. Okay, you can't see the rest of the wall.

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Yeah, there's a few guitars. I bet. Yeah, I can see some cases. Great. And I will leave a link to

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your website in the description. People want to check it out. And yeah, so you were talking about

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how when you were a kid, you made, you made that connection, that key connection that every vegan

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makes. And sometimes it can be very upsetting. But did you have any pets? Was it something you've

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watched on TV, like maybe an anime or something like that? And the topic of that was about animals?

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Was that like 100% came from you? Or was it also an outside influence that made you think about

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animals? I can't think of any specific example of something that influenced me. But of course,

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I had to have been influenced somehow. You know, you're a kid, you grow up, you're exposed to media

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and pop culture. So I'm sure you know, maybe watching Bambi or something. I'm pretty old. So

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I don't think anime was super popular over here back then. But um, yeah, I don't know, I always

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had animals growing up. I had a cat from the time I was born up until I was maybe about 12 or 13.

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We had a dog growing up had a rabbit. So I was, I was always like an animal lover, I guess. But I

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can't point to any specific thing that helped me make the connection. It was just a thing that I

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was aware of. And to be honest, I don't think that's especially novel. I think that most people

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do make the connection. But they're really good at kind of pushing it to the back of their head

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and not really thinking about it. I think that's pretty difficult for most people. And normal,

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because obviously, that's consistently reinforced on a daily basis by the world around you. You

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know, society is based around the exploitation of animals to a degree. And the only way that can

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work is for everyone to collectively agree that this is something that's okay. So I think most

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people recognize that the animals on your plate are the same as the animals that you see in farms

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or on TV, even young children do. But there's a lot of pressure against the way that you see

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animals. There's a lot of pressure against thinking about it kind of objectively in that sense.

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And you use the word cognitive dissonance, the expression cognitive dissonance. I think it's a

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great expression to describe that phenomenon. Amazing. So after having eaten that bowl of chili,

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you decided to become vegan. How was your first years as a vegan? How did that transition from

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being vegetarian to becoming vegan happen? I think that it wasn't that difficult to start.

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It was more difficult than it would be today by a lot. Because back then, we didn't have vegan

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restaurants, like nothing close to it, like nothing at all. Veganism wasn't a widely acknowledged

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term or something that people knew about. I would have to explain what vegan meant any time that I

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talked to anyone about it. It was not part of those guys at all. If I went to a restaurant,

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you couldn't just ask somebody if something was vegan, which nowadays, still not 100%. But you can

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occasionally do that. But mostly, I was cooking for myself and having to fend for myself. I learned

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how to cook as a result of it. I made a lot of mistakes, learned by trial and error. I'm sure I

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ate a lot of food that wasn't vegan too early on, and just kind of made my way through it. But I had

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a good support system. As I mentioned before, my parents were very supportive and accepting of it.

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They were not vegetarian by any means. We're a typical American household. We eat with every

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single meal. My mom was accepting right off the bat. My dad was a little bit more cautious about

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it. But once he realized that I was taking it seriously and knew what I was doing, he was fine

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with it as well. I think I had a good support system with my friends too. At the time, a lot of my

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friends were either vegetarian and or vegan. I was a little bit more of a vegetarian. I was

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a little bit more of a vegan. I would say my transition was pretty easy overall. But looking

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at it in today's context, it was probably pretty tough. So your expectations changed over the years.

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Yeah, well, when I became vegan, I discovered with a bit of surprise and shock that a lot of the

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vegan could be adapted to a vegan recipe. I mean, tomato sauce. You don't need the cheese. You don't

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need the meat part. You can just eat that with pasta and that's about it. Did you have any

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surprises when you became vegan? Something you did not expect about it or maybe some kind of

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clash with culture and your everyday life? I think so. Less a clash with culture. I think that a lot

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of what I ate was, as you said, just adapting the foods I would eat previously to be a vegetarian

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version. One of the typical meals that my mom would make all the time was goulash. Not real

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Hungarian goulash, but kind of American Midwestern version of goulash, which is elbow macaroni with

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some sauteed onions and ground beef and garlic and some spices and a tomato sauce. I would cook the

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exact same thing, but I would use tofu. I would buy tofu crumbles or something like that. Otherwise,

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it would be the exact same dish. So I cooked a lot of stuff like that and was able to adapt a lot of

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the things that I was already eating. One thing that kind of surprised me was how many new foods

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I discovered as a result. One thing that kind of gets lost in the mix sometimes is people view

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veganism or vegan diet as exclusionary or restrictive in some way because you're taking

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foods out of your diet and not necessarily replacing them with anything, or at least that's

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the premise. But in reality, what ends up happening is you take foods out of your diet, you cut out meat

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and cheese and milk, dairy, eggs, that kind of stuff, and you start exploring all sorts of other

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types of food. So I ended up getting into all types of Asian food. Prior to that, I had never eaten

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Thai food before, Vietnamese food, lots of types of regional Chinese food, Korean food, Indian food,

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Ethiopian food, stuff like that, where now this makes up a lot of my diet. I eat stuff from all

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over the world, a wide variety of stuff, all sorts of new weird vegetables and fruits and stuff that

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I'd never eaten before. This morning I was just eating some passion fruit that I found out in our

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alleyway where I walk our dog, there's a passion fruit tree at the end of it. So there's passion

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fruit there all the time. So now I take them home and I cut those up and save the pulp. I make juice

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out of it and I would eat the leftovers, stuff that is totally new to me. So I think that was

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the most surprising thing is how much my horizons expanded once I went vegan and did not constrict.

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And that was also my experience. I mean, you are forced to learn about nutrition. You are forced

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to look for new sources of recipes and such. And all of a sudden your plate becomes colorful

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and it's an amazing experience. But veganism is not just about food. It's also about the rest,

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like the clothing. How was that in terms of adapting yourself?

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That was a little different. I had a lot of clothing at the time, like leather and wool

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and stuff like that. And I think I just kind of phased that out over time. Within the first couple

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of years being vegan, I became really uncomfortable with that. I know there's a lot of people that are

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vegan that are okay with purchasing second-hand leather and wool and things of that nature,

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or wearing stuff that they have currently. The idea being that instead of buying new products

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and driving consumption, which also has a negative ecological impact, buying something that

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is already used or that you already have. To me, it still kind of reinforces this idea that animals

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can be clothing. If you wear a leather jacket, to me, if it's second-hand or if I've owned it for

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30 years or whatever, it doesn't matter because I'm still showing people that this is an article

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of clothing that is something I chose to wear. So for me, I just don't view leather or wool or other

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types of animal clothing any different than I would as eating roadkill or something.

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There's maybe no ethical issue there per se, but it reinforces the belief that animals are here as

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commodities for humans. So I think it took me a couple of years to wrap my head around that,

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and I was able to phase all of that out. Finding products that were cruelty-free,

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not tested on animals, was just kind of a trial and error approach over time.

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You get better at these things as you go along. You're never going to be perfect. You're going

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to make mistakes. You're going to end up buying something or eating something or doing something

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that in some way is not 100% ethical. So I think the goal is just to make the best decisions you

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can and try and steadily improve when possible. So I think I've had that kind of mindset for a

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while. When I was younger, I was probably a little more hard-line about some things,

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but everyone's a little more extreme when they're younger too.

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Yeah. I had that same idea that you can purchase secondhand leather boots. There is no ethical

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concern about that. But recently someone told me, well, yeah, but what if someone looks at

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those shoes and think, oh, those are beautiful shoes. I want the same. And then they ask you,

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where did you find them? And what if you end up promoting that brand, even though you're wearing

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something secondhand? And I wanted to share that because that was the first time I thought, oh,

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there is a problem with that practice. Interesting. And in terms of, you become vegan,

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you make all of those changes. And you were talking about the perception of animals also changing.

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Did you feel like you were trying to discipline yourself? Like you're trying to

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force yourself into a new habit or was it just a change of perception? Because some vegans have

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told me, it's just that meat was not food anymore. It was not the definition of what food is supposed

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to be. And that was just a change of perception and becoming vegan went easy after that. Was it

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the same experience for you? Yes. I think a change of perception, absolutely. So I never felt like I

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was holding myself to some sort of strict regimen or discipline or anything like that. I never felt

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that. I just had a change of perception, which is related to the reason why I won't wear secondhand

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leather or things of that nature. Because for me, those aren't clothes. It's just still dead animal

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skin. Even if they're fashion into something that looks like clothes. A friend texted me yesterday

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and sent me an article from NPR about how lab grown chicken is now cleared for consumer consumption

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in the United States. And he asked what my opinion was if I thought it was vegan or not. He's not

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vegan by the way, or vegetarian. And I told him that I personally would have no interest in eating

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it just because for me, there's no desire to eat meat. When I ate meat and ate animal products,

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I didn't stop eating them because I didn't like them. I stopped eating them because I had an

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ethical issue with them. But over time, that kind of, that gulf grew. And now I didn't see any of

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these things as food anymore. So the thought of eating meat to me is not appealing at all, even

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if it was at one time, just because I don't see it as meat anymore. For the record, I'm a hundred

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percent for all of the lab grown meats. I think it's going to be a massive net positive for animals,

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but it's just one of those things where I'm going to pass. I'm doing okay with what I eat now. But

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yeah, I think it's a change of perception. That's it. I never felt like it was, there were challenges,

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but it was never self-imposed challenges. For me, it was just, this isn't food. I'm not going to eat

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it. No problem. And what about realistic meat like beyond meat? Does that appeal to you?

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Yeah, I would say that it's not my first choice. I eat beyond meat quite a bit and impossible on

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occasion. I do like those, but if you had me go down a list of my favorite meat products,

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favorite burgers and such, it's products that are not even available anymore just because they

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weren't that popular and they're gone. I really like those sunshine burgers when those were slow

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around the sunflower seed ones and my favorite burgers of all time. I can't remember who made

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them, but they were called Ocara patties. Ocara is the leftover soy pulp after you make soy milk.

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So it's the like bean curd skin on the top and you can mash all this stuff up and make a really

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interesting patty with it. So they were kind of like chicken like patties. You would cook in the

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toaster. I love that stuff. But nowadays the market share is dominated by beyond and impossible. So I

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do eat quite a lot of those and I like them just fine. And I don't find them particularly meaty.

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I think impossible, probably a little bit more so. Beyond burgers are probably my favorite as far as

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the realistic meats go, but they don't bother me at all because I know what's in them.

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And are you still attracted by the scent of like roasted chicken or something like that?

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No, not at all. My wife is she's attracted to like the scent of fried chicken of all things,

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which I think is probably more the batter and the spices that you smell. But for me,

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I associate it with the chicken. She's been vegan for a long time too. So she has no desire to eat

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any of these things, but the smell she still likes. But for me, that doesn't not appeal like

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maybe like some barbecue stuff because the smoked wood chips, you know, but that's not really

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the barbecue per se. It's the method of cooking. Well, that's the thing about meat. You know, meat

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is flesh, but cooked. You know, there are spices, there are, you add sauce, you add oils and butter

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and all sorts of things. It's not really, nobody is, well, not nobody. There are some people

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who are attracted by, you know, flesh, raw flesh, but nobody is really, you know, smells a raw

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chicken, something and thinks, oh, that smells yummy. I don't think so. Yeah. So you're attracted

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by the cooking that comes with meat, you know, the end product, so to speak. Okay. I have a question

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about, you know, you brought up your wife. Is your wife vegan? She is vegan. Yeah. She was vegetarian

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when we met and became vegan shortly thereafter. She had gone vegan before and kind of had failed

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attempts at it. And I think one of the best things you could do if you're vegan and need support is

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have a partner that's vegan as well, because then it's just kind of, it's so much easier. You know,

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I really feel for friends that I have that are vegan or even vegetarian who have a partner who's

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not just because I know it can make things a little more difficult. Yeah, it's true. I mean,

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you have the social pressure outside of your house, but if you also have that social pressure inside,

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it becomes kind of difficult. So I want to ask you about a study that came out and showed how

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84% of vegans and vegetarians stop being vegans and vegetarians. 34% of them are vegan.

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After only a few months. And that's something that agreed with my perception of reality.

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If you go on YouTube and start researching veganism, you will end up, I mean, 100%

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certain you will end up watching a video of an ex-vegan. The internet is full of that.

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I think there's even a subreddit called ex-vegans. So my first question for you is,

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do you agree with that assessment that most people who become vegan stop being vegan?

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I do agree with that. I think that I've seen those studies as well. And everything you've said

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jives with my experience as well, both personally and just up online. I've seen the ex-vegan

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communities. I've seen the videos for ex-vegans. I've read the articles about celebrities that were

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big vegans that decided that they didn't feel good anymore. So they started eating fish and all of a

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sudden they magically feel great again. So yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I'll wait for your

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second question because I have a few more things to chime in on with that.

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Well, how do you explain that? What's happening here?

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I think there are a few different causes. And I think one of them kind of innocently enough is

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that people don't really do their due diligence when they go vegan. I'm not a proponent of just

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saying like, yeah, go vegan. You're going to be fine. It's like absolutely nothing to worry about.

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Go for it. I do think you should go for it. I do think you should, anytime you're radically

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changing what you consume, since diet's such an important part of your life, you should do a

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little bit of research and learn about what you're doing. So a really common thing that happens, I'm

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sure everyone can relate to this, that has friends that have been vegan or vegetarian at one point

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that aren't anymore, is people go vegan and they're like, wow, Oreos are vegan, French fries are

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vegan, potato chips are vegan. That's what I'm going to eat all day. I'm going to eat toast and

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chips and they just eat junk food. It's a really nutritionally incomplete diet. And they just feel

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like crap. And that's pretty typical. And I think that a lot of times you hear from the ex-vegans

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that are like, I started eating fish and magically my health got better. It's usually something to

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that effect. And then I think there's the other extreme version of that, which is a lot of people

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are really persuaded by these claims that a really extreme, super clean, entirely whole foods or

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even raw foods, plant-based diet is the only diet you should be eating. And they jump off the deep

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end and go straight into that. And all of a sudden you have somebody who's eating 2,000 calories a

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day, and now they're eating 1,200 calories a day of raw fruits and nuts and stuff like that.

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And it's just not enough. You're taking a lot of stuff, a lot of nutrients out of your diet,

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good and bad stuff, and you're replacing it with insufficient alternative nutrients. So I think that

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you can make almost any diet a healthy one if you're doing it the right way. You can eat a heavy

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meat, dairy, and egg diet and absolutely be in abysmal health and feel terrible all the time

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because you're eating the worst possible food. But I'm not delusional. There are a lot of people

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that eat these foods that are in really fantastic shape because they eat about half the amount of

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food they eat. They eat a balanced diet, they watch their calories, they exercise, all these things.

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So the same can be applied to a vegan diet. I think you should be reasonable about it,

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do a little bit of research, learn a little bit about nutrition, and don't be afraid to supplement

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as well. Vitamin D3 and B12 supplements and omega-3 DHAEPA supplements are really good for vegans.

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And these are things that are common deficiencies in vegans and things that aren't commonly found

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in plant-based foods. Now that's not to say that this somehow invalidates a vegan diet because

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supplementation is recommended because after all, vitamin D and B12 supplementation is recommended

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for the entire U.S. population. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but here these are very common

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deficiencies. But it's easy and it's cheap to supplement and make sure that you get a full

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balanced diet. So I think doing a little bit of research is the way to go. Apologies for being

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long-winded, but the last part of that is I think that a lot of people treat veganism as a fad diet.

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So veganism is not a diet. Veganism is a lifestyle that's based on eating a vegan diet, a fully

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plant-based diet, and eliminating any types of contributions to animal suffering and exploitation

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whenever possible. So like we talked about earlier, that means not wearing animal clothing or using

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products that are tested on animals, not going to rodeos and circuses and dog races and stuff like

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that. I think a lot of people look at veganism as a diet, as a way to either live forever with

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this magical miracle cure-all health diet, or it's just something they saw on YouTube and they

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thought it seemed cool. So as a result, they do this diet, they don't get the results they're

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looking for, and they're like, okay, on to the next thing. I think a lot of those people are people

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that have done keto diets, paleo diets, vegan, they bounce around and they try different stuff.

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So I think that it's not an indictment of veganism. I think it's just an observation of

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how people navigate diets and things of that nature. And maybe on our side, we should do a

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better job at first of all, preparing people, giving them the tools needed to make that transition,

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but also not put too much attention on the health side, in the sense of not selling veganism with

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some pseudoscience health benefits. We should focus on the ethical argument and put all of our

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energy in there. There is a consequential argument to be made where if everyone decided to become

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vegan for health reasons, why does it matter if the result says that there is less suffering of

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animals? And true, I will give that to people, but this is not reality. This is not a thought

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experiment. The reality is, I agree with you, many people become vegan for the wrong reasons,

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and then they end up leaving. And it just causes a lot of harm. So how would you,

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if someone is listening and is not vegan, is maybe considering or is open-minded to becoming vegan,

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what would you say to that person? Well, I want to kind of circle back to something you mentioned

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a moment ago, going vegan for the wrong reasons. And I don't think there are any wrong reasons to

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go vegan. I encourage anyone to go vegan for any reason whatsoever. From a strictly utilitarian

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standpoint, it doesn't matter to me why someone's vegan. If they decide to cut animal products out

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of their life, it's a good thing. However, I strongly agree with you that ethical-based

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vegans have a way higher success rate. So I think that if you perform these same studies and you've

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broken into groups of what's your primary motivation for being vegan, the ones that are

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ethically driven are not going to have an 84% or whatever it was failure rate, whereas the ones

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that go vegan for health are going to be probably maybe higher than that even. I think that it's

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important. Veganism has an activist component built into it. So I think it's okay for people to be,

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to eat a plant-based diet but not be vegan if that's what they want to do. You know,

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they don't consider themselves activists and they're just more focused on eating a vegan diet.

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I think that that's one thing. But if you want to be vegan, there is an ethical approach built into

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it. There is a degree of activism there. And I think that if you want to be an activist in any

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capacity, you owe it to yourself and to the group you're advocating for to not argue your weakest

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point. And I think that when it comes to veganism, that the health benefits are the weakest point

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because they're not mutually exclusive or not exclusive to veganism. And they're not always

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what they're purported to be. I don't think you can just go vegan and all of your health problems

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will disappear. I don't think you can go vegan and you'll never get cancer. You know, these things

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are just not true. So I think that having realistic expectations going in sets yourself up for success

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rather than failure. And I think that having a strong environmental and more importantly,

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ethical drive when it comes to veganism, you're more likely to stick with it and have a reason to

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navigate the tough times or societal pressure or any other things that might make it challenging

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to be vegan. So what I would say to somebody who is open to becoming vegan, who isn't already,

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is I would tell them to just go for it first off, like absolutely do it. But don't be afraid to do

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a little bit of research, learn a little bit about nutrition, learn a little bit about why you're

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doing what you're doing. Meet up with other people, like-minded individuals, find social

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media communities for people that are vegan or interested in becoming vegan. I think you'll

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find that there are a lot of people there that are really eager to help support you. So for me,

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if a new vegan or an aspiring vegan were to get in touch with me and just say, hey,

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I'm thinking about going vegan, do you have any advice? I would be overjoyed to help out. I'd

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be thrilled. So I would stop what I'm doing and say, yeah, let's talk about it. And let's figure

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it out because it's so doable. I mean, it's so easy right now. Depending on where you live in the

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world, most places that you live, it's like trivial to eat a vegan diet. So I would say, don't worry

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about the restrictions or the difficulty. You'll get there. And don't worry about perfection

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either. That's another part of it. I should have mentioned this earlier, but now is as good a time

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as ever. I think that this quest for perfection is something that really hurts vegans. I think that

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a lot of people have an all or nothing mindset. And I understand that too. When you first go vegan,

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when you first get turned on to all of these injustices in the world and you can't believe

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how bad it is for animals and factory farms and stuff, it's really easy to look at that and be

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like, I have to do this a hundred percent and there's absolutely no compromise ever.

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So what'll happen is you'll try it and you'll mess up. You'll accidentally go to a restaurant,

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you'll eat something that has cheese in it, you won't realize it. Or you'll buy something,

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you'll get home and realize it's got whey in it or something like that. I think it's really

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important not beat yourself up over that and to be realistic and to be kind to yourself and realize

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that you make mistakes, you can never be perfect. Try and learn a little bit more every day and do

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a little bit better every day. And by the end of it, you'll be fine. So yeah, I would say,

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don't be afraid to go for it. Find the community, find some support, people that are willing to help

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you out, do a little bit of minor research to find out why you're doing what you're doing,

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learn a little bit about nutrition and then just don't beat yourself up. You'll get there.

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That's good advice. And if you can't become vegan for whatever reason, and there are people out

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there for health reasons, for economical reasons, or even for cultural or family reasons, can't

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become vegan. You can always reduce your consumption of animal products. I mean,

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this is something relatively easy to do. One day a week, have plant-based meals. Don't go to the zoo.

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It's not hard. Or don't go to the pet shop. And if you want a dog, go look for,

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go visit your local shelter and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's true. I struggle

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with that a little bit. I'll be honest with you because from an ideological standpoint,

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I do think that it is somewhat of an all or nothing proposition, not to contradict myself earlier.

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I do think there are any reduction in animal suffering is good. And I do encourage people to

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reduce their meat consumption, their dairy and egg consumption, adopt, don't shop, stuff like that.

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And I think that all of that is good. I don't think that's the end goal. I think we probably

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agree on that. But I will say that I struggle with it because on one hand, I want to just advocate

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purely for veganism and say, yeah, fine, meatless Monday is like, you wouldn't decide to not commit

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homicide one day out of the week, which I realize is kind of a ridiculous extreme position there.

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But on the other hand, I realized that there is a lot of benefit in people reducing. And I also

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realized that I didn't go vegan overnight. And I think that that's really important. I've been a

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new vegan too, right? And I think a lot of people can relate to this. When you're a new vegan,

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you're really fired up and you're just like, can't believe the injustices of the world. So when other

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people treat it as a casual thing that they can commit to, they're like, oh, I'm going to go

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vegan. And just because it's a casual thing that they can kind of dip in and out of, that's

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borderline offensive to you. And I can relate to that because I've been there. But as I get older

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and lamer probably, I realized that there's some benefit to that. And I want to kind of meet people

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where they are and then encourage them to do more. I definitely have had friends in the past that

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when I was younger and more hardline about things, I probably turned them away from veganism

376
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,840
they were trying to reduce their meat consumption and try and reduce their animal products consumption,

377
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,840
but it wasn't good enough for me. And I'm sure that I let them know that plenty of times. So,

378
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:29,040
you know, I don't think that's always doing the best you can for the animals, even if it seems

379
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,720
like it is. So ultimately, I agree with you, but it is something that I do have a little bit of

380
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:41,040
internal conflict about. And that makes me think of something Dr. Jensvold, I did an episode on that.

381
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:51,120
She's a caretaker for fauna sanctuary. And she's a she is a researcher, she studies chimps. And she

382
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,280
was telling me how, you know, there are many countries who don't want to recognize chimps,

383
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:03,840
and great apes as people, although they are very close to human beings, and very complex creatures,

384
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:11,680
because if they recognize chimps, and greater apes as people, why should they not recognize

385
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:17,520
monkeys? And then if they recognize monkeys, why would they not recognize and the list goes on and

386
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:27,040
on, and then you have opened the door to all of the animal kingdom. And yeah, I feel like

387
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:37,760
this is the same. This is like, we, you open the door to a lifestyle where you have, you consume

388
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:48,640
less animal products. And at the end, we, this is not the goal. The end is to eliminate all of that

389
00:40:48,640 --> 00:41:00,000
all of that animal exploitation we are doing. So made me think of that. Now, I want to try to,

390
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:10,400
you know, I want to ask you exactly. Why do you think you became vegan? Is it for because you

391
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:23,360
have something innate in you that made it so happen? Or do you think that veganism influences

392
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:30,800
more the person who adopts it, and then it changes you into you were talking how, you know,

393
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:42,080
you were intense in your animal advocacy. And that was around when you adopted veganism into

394
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:49,440
your life. Because that's, you know, when you think about it, there's no real comparison to be made

395
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,720
for vegan people, you know, there are not a lot of people out there who make such drastic changes

396
00:41:56,720 --> 00:42:06,400
in their lives in order to embrace some ethical code. And you could, you know, think maybe about

397
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:14,160
religious groups, you know, if you convert to and, you know, become orthodox Jewish or something

398
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:20,560
like that, then, of course, you will make drastic changes in your life. But veganism is not religion.

399
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:27,920
Although some critics will disagree, but it's not religion. It's it goes across many cultures,

400
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:37,520
of course, transcends gender, you know, you have vegans of all horizons. So

401
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:48,720
I'm trying to understand what is it that makes 1% of the planet embrace that ethical code?

402
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:57,520
And the relationship of influences between, you know, veganism and, and who you are?

403
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:05,120
Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. So I think this kind of relates to your question

404
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:10,160
earlier about how many people become vegan and stop being vegan. So the reason there's such a

405
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,640
high rate, a lot of the reasons I mentioned were ones where people are quote unquote, doing it

406
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:20,960
wrong, which is probably unfair, because people have unrealistic expectations, they jump into it,

407
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,880
don't get the results that they want, you know, and maybe those were all of the reasons that they were

408
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,240
aware of, right. But I think another really big issue is that there's a lot of pushback from the

409
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:37,600
world around you from society, from friends, family, work, your community, all of these,

410
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:44,160
in many cases are telling you veganism is unnecessary. It's an extremist position. It's

411
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:51,040
a religion. It's, you know, something that we don't need to do. It's not helpful. And I think

412
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,960
that these are kind of defense mechanisms that a lot of people have for confronting that cognitive

413
00:43:54,960 --> 00:44:02,000
dissonance we discussed earlier. So to answer your question about whether I went vegan because of the

414
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:08,080
way I was, or if I kind of became the way that I am, because I am vegan, that makes sense. I think

415
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:13,280
it's a combination. And I do think that a big part of it is the reason that I went vegan and stayed

416
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:20,560
vegan is because of who I am fundamentally. I've never been a person who shied away from being

417
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:26,160
different or being an outsider, or being the only one in a group who has a certain position, as long

418
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:31,200
as it's something I truly believe in. If I'm in a group of 100 people, and I'm the only one that

419
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,600
thinks that I'm right about something, I'm going to listen to everyone else, and I'm going to

420
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:41,200
consider their positions. But I'm not afraid to, you know, be the only person in the room who feels

421
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:47,360
away about something. That said, I do consider other positions. I don't think that I always have

422
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:52,240
it right. I probably get it right some of the time, hopefully. But I think that I've always been kind

423
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:59,600
of headstrong in that sense, and self-reliant. I haven't really looked to others for validation as

424
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:05,040
often as some people might. And I don't think that that makes me better at it, or better at anything

425
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:10,000
in general. It's just a personality trait. You know, I'm just observing how I am. So I think that

426
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:17,520
a lot of people aren't as comfortable doing that, which is probably really normal and typical. And

427
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:22,960
it makes it a lot harder. So, you know, I think that explains some portion of the vegans who are

428
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:28,320
no longer vegan, is that they, it became too hard for them to constantly have to explain, no, no,

429
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:33,680
I don't eat that. Here's why. Yes, I get enough protein. No, I'm not deficient in this, or whatever.

430
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:38,640
You know, for a lot of people, it gets tiresome. It wears them out. So for me, that doesn't wear

431
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,760
me out. I'll never get tired of it. And if people ask me, I'm patient, and I'll give them the time

432
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:50,240
of day, and I'll explain why I'm vegan, and it's no problem. So I would say it's more the former.

433
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:56,080
It's more that I'm vegan because of how I am. But I've been vegan for so long, more than half my life,

434
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,960
that it has informed the way that I view the world. So it's kind of shaped the lens through

435
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,760
which I view the world, for better or for worse. You know, I think a lot of times,

436
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,880
it's nice to see veganism becoming more and more mainstream. It's so cool to be able to just walk

437
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:16,640
into a restaurant now, and there's items on the menu clearly marked as vegan, which seems like such

438
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:24,240
a trivial, minor thing, that as somebody who has been vegan since the late 90s, it's huge. I mean,

439
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:29,120
like, the fact that the word vegan appears on a menu is a success. That's a triumph for veganism.

440
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:34,080
And it's a testament to how veganism is becoming more mainstream by the day, and how it's become

441
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:38,880
more broadly accepted. People are viewing veganism as something that's not extreme, or just totally

442
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,040
nuts, but something that's attainable and normal, and they have friends and family members who are

443
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:49,840
vegan. So this is objectively good. You know, at the same time, it is tough dealing with being

444
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:54,080
surrounded by people that you care about and respect and love that don't share your values,

445
00:46:54,080 --> 00:47:00,000
or maybe worse, they do share your values, but fail to act on them. That's tough to deal with.

446
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,320
And I think that that also takes a particular personality type to be able to weather that.

447
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:10,320
So that also goes back to what we talked about with knowing why you're doing it, why you're in it.

448
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:15,280
So for me, there have been times where I've struggled with that, and it's been really

449
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:21,200
challenging to navigate that. You know, some of the closest people in my life are not even

450
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:26,640
vegetarian, let alone vegan. And these are, you know, smart, compassionate people who I truly

451
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:33,920
respect. And for some reason, they haven't come to the same conclusion that I have. And I have to

452
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:40,880
reconcile that with my respect to them. So it's a little bit tough, right? And I don't think that

453
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:46,640
that comes easy for anyone. And for some people, it's probably an insurmountable challenge. So

454
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:52,880
that veganism has affected me in that way that I think more about these kind of things.

455
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,560
Yeah, I've probably always thought about them to a degree, but it's just more on my radar. And I

456
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,800
think that the average person, this is not something that's in their day-to-day thoughts.

457
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:11,360
And I have a controversial question for you. And that's something I have been struggling with.

458
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:18,720
Would you support a law that would prohibit the consumption of animal products?

459
00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:28,080
That's a tough question. I think that the easy answer would be to say yes. I don't know. I'd

460
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,400
have to really think about that to give you a good answer. I don't think that that's as simple,

461
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:38,160
because I think that prohibition in general doesn't work for anything. You know, look at in the United

462
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:43,840
States, the war on drugs, which has been a failure since its inception, and has only been a failure

463
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:51,440
since its inception, and has only criminalized a certain percentage of the population and not

464
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:58,400
fixed anything. It hasn't made anything better. So I think that education and transparency,

465
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:05,760
and a broader shift in social norms, it would have a much more lasting long-term effect,

466
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:10,800
and short-term effect. And it would be doing things the right way. I think that a legal

467
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:18,080
prohibition would not get the result that you want. It certainly would create a black market,

468
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:24,080
a large black market for animal products. On the surface, I'd like to say yeah, make it illegal,

469
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,160
I guess. But I think that's kind of like a knee-jerk reaction, and most likely counterproductive.

470
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:37,200
I think that we need a large paradigm shift in society. We need people to talk about factory

471
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:42,320
farming and animal exploitation, and we need good faith arguments. How many times have you been hit

472
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:50,160
with people debating you about how it's impossible to change anything, so why bother? Or by eating a

473
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:56,160
vegan diet, you're contributing to deaths of small animals when they harvest grains, ignoring the

474
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:00,160
fact that the majority of these grains harvested for consumption go to feeding livestock that are

475
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:05,520
then killed to feed humans. I think that if we have a more open, transparent, open, open,

476
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:11,360
if we have a more open, transparent dialogue about this kind of stuff, and less bad actors in the

477
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:16,480
space, then we can probably make a lot more progress than by passing a law that outlaws it.

478
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:26,400
I agree. I agree. And this will not happen tomorrow for listeners who are panicking.

479
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:34,640
I mean, if any politician even approaches that idea, it will be political suicide. Yeah.

480
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:41,920
No chance. No chance. Even in a progressive place like California or something like that.

481
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:54,880
That's not talking about the lobby, the meat and milk, dairy and meat lobby. Anyway. So finally,

482
00:50:54,880 --> 00:51:00,880
what is the one thing you want listeners to know about veganism after this whole conversation,

483
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:08,240
where we touch on so many aspects? If there was one thing you want listeners to retain

484
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:18,240
after this conversation, what would it be? I think it would be that veganism is not an extreme

485
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:26,800
and unattainable lifestyle at all, not even close. If you live in rural Philippines, it's going to

486
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:32,560
be a little harder. But for the majority of the people probably listening or watching,

487
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:38,080
you probably live near a supermarket. You probably have restaurants in your area that have a vegan

488
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:44,080
dish or two. Cooking is fun. You can learn how to do it. It's pretty easy. So I would just say that

489
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:49,360
there's a lot of buildup. There's a lot of hype about how veganism is some sort of extreme thing

490
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:54,800
that only the most hardcore animal rights activists can do. It's not. It's just a normal

491
00:51:54,800 --> 00:52:00,560
thing. People ask me all the time about how do I do it? I don't know. I go to the store and I buy

492
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:05,440
groceries and I go home and I cook them. And then I go out and eat at a restaurant. I live the exact

493
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:10,320
same lifestyle that everyone else that I know lives. I just do it without animal products.

494
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:15,680
And I think that that's probably the strongest case that you could make for adopting a vegan

495
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:24,800
lifestyle is that if you can live a lifestyle that is good and fulfilling and convenient and

496
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:31,520
normal, and you can do that without unnecessarily contributing to additional animal exploitation

497
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:36,800
and suffering, then why wouldn't you do it? It literally is a pick one scenario.

498
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:43,760
And it doesn't have to be more expensive or more cumbersome. It doesn't have to be more extreme.

499
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:49,040
This is why I always encourage new vegans to not worry about really, really extreme stuff like raw

500
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:54,240
veganism or I'm only eating organic foods or whatever. Just cut animal products out of your

501
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:59,760
diet. Eat some normal stuff. You'll be okay. It's not extreme. It's just normal. So that's

502
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:04,720
kind of the main point I'd like to get across is that at first it might seem like a pretty big

503
00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:09,520
shift because especially if you eat a typical American diet like I did and like so many other

504
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:15,600
people did and do, you're eating meat every meal. You're eating dairy products multiple times a day.

505
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:20,640
Eggs, that's like the main dish for breakfast. It's going to be a big shift at first. You'll need

506
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:25,680
to get a little bit used to it, but very quickly you'll realize this is just a totally normal

507
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,760
lifestyle. I don't do anything different than anyone else that I know does other than the fact

508
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:34,800
that the foods that I eat are plant derived instead of animal derived. That's it. And then I just

509
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:40,720
make decisions that don't contribute to animal suffering whenever possible. All of our animals

510
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:46,400
that we have are adopted from a shelter. All of our clothes are made out of renewable textiles

511
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:51,360
for the most part. I try and make sure that I buy clothes that are ethically produced in terms of

512
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:56,480
human labor as well. I mean, it extends beyond. It's just trying to do better and be compassionate

513
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:01,120
and make good decisions that affect you and the people around you and the world around you

514
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:06,800
positively. So I apologize for the very long-winded answer to a concise question, but

515
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,800
I think that's it. It's just like veganism is not that big of a deal. Just do it and you'll see

516
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:18,320
over time. It's totally normal. That's what every podcast host wants. Just one question

517
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:24,080
and the guest just speaks the rest of the time. Yeah. I mean, just doing this podcast,

518
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:34,640
people can see that vegans are ordinary people. There's nothing extreme. I'm just talking

519
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:40,720
personally. I'm a creature of comfort. I'm so glad that I became vegan when it was so easy. I don't

520
00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:52,080
know what I would have done in the 90s. But yeah, it's kind of easy when you live in North America,

521
00:54:52,080 --> 00:55:01,120
when you have the choice that we have now, right now in this era and with all the resources out

522
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:15,600
there. So don't look for vegan models and examples on YouTube among the raw vegans and the loudest

523
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:23,440
voices in the community. Most vegans are just ordinary people and they're just living ordinary

524
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:31,360
lives. Nothing extraordinary about us. So Justin, did you want to add something?

525
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:36,960
Yeah, I want to add one really brief thing. I'm going to give a plug for a service that I use all

526
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,720
the time. And the only reason why is because this kind of brings it right back to what we were

527
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:47,520
talking about. Happy Cal is a website. They have an app as well, happycal.com, I believe. An app

528
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:53,120
just called Happy Cal. And it's an invaluable resource if you don't know where to start or

529
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:58,640
places that you can find vegan food. I travel a lot. I travel internationally when I get a chance

530
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:05,440
as well. That's one of the hobbies of my wife and I. And I've traveled to 20 something countries

531
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:10,720
all during the time that I've been vegan. And I've traveled through places that are famously not

532
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:18,560
vegan, like South Korea or Japan, Cambodia, parts of Mexico, France. And invariably I can just pull

533
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:23,440
up the Happy Cal app and boom, there's a restaurant within walking distance that has at least one

534
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,760
really good vegan option. So especially for new vegans, if you're just like, what do I do? Where

535
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,760
do I start? Just look on Happy Cal and you might be surprised. You're going to find some places

536
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:36,560
around you that you didn't even know were vegan. So that's not so much a final thought. It's just

537
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:41,040
like a little pro tip, but I use it more times than you would believe. I'm on Happy Cal all the time.

538
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:48,800
I will check it out 100%. I mean, thank you for this blog. I will add a link in the description.

539
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:53,040
This is an essential tool I did not know about in my eight years.

540
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,800
Well, let's put it this way. I think you're from Quebec, right?

541
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:57,840
Yes.

542
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:03,760
So I did a trip to Montreal and my goal was I wanted to eat vegan poutine every day of the trip

543
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:08,560
that I was there. So my resource was Happy Cal. I went to Happy Cal and I looked for every restaurant

544
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:13,280
on there that served poutine and I successfully did it. I gained about five pounds on the trip

545
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,000
but I did it. I pulled it off.

546
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,200
I was going to say this was not a healthy challenge.

547
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:21,280
No, not at all.

548
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:31,760
But that's amazing. I mean, yeah, I will check it out and I will go and try it in downtown Montreal

549
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:38,800
and I will be thinking about you and your poutine challenge. So again, for the second time now,

550
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:44,640
thank you, Justin, for having answered my questions, for having shared your experience

551
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:49,360
and the insights you gain throughout your vegan journey.

552
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:53,520
Yeah, it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun both times.

553
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:59,840
Thank you everyone for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it with family and

554
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:08,000
friends, offer them a window into the life of a vegan. I think you will really love next week's

555
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:14,960
episode. We are traveling to Vietnam of all countries to meet Catherine, who is the founder

556
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:22,800
and director of Vietnam Animal, Ed and Rescue, the only animal sanctuary of the country.

557
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:30,800
And we are going to talk about everything from the dog and cat meat trade to the cultural clash

558
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:39,200
regarding animal welfare. It's a passionate conversation. I simply don't want you to miss it.

559
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:48,960
So subscribe now to the podcast. Thank you again for listening. Take care and see you next week.

560
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:10,000
you