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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.

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If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure

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where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with

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passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special

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contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Today we are going

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to talk about compassion and how to extend our compassion not only to fellow homo sapiens,

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but also to other primates like chimps or monkeys. I have with me Dr. Mary Lee Jensvold.

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Mary Lee Jensvold is a primate communication scientist and associate director at Fona

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Foundation. I invite everyone to visit the Fona Foundation website at fonafoundation.org.

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You can find more details in the description below. She has spent her career working with

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the signing chimpanzees, Waxu, I think that's how you pronounce the name, and her family. Mary Lee

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is the former director of the Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute at Central Washington

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University. Her interests in chimpanzee sanctuaries include care, practices, behavior, design,

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and welfare. Her expertise is in chimpanzee behavior and communication. She's a senior

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lecturer in the primate behavior and ecology program and anthropology department at Central

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Washington University. She has numerous publications in journals and books. Thank you very much,

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Mary Lee, for being a guest on this podcast. Well, thank you for having me. I'm looking

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forward to it. It's so great that you're featuring Fona Foundation. Amazing. You are an expert in

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primate communication. And one of the most mind-blowing thing I have ever watched is a

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chimpanzee using sign language. And it is so astonishing that you wonder, is it real?

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Do great apes who are, I think, the only primates who can learn sign language, do great apes really

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have a grasp of language? Or is it just a conditioning trick, like a parrot saying a word

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to get a treat? Well, we find over the years, it's interesting it remains so controversial because

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it rattles the foundation of who we are as a species. And some of the chimps were raised

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like human children. And they acquire signs in that environment. So they acquire them in patterns

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that resemble human children. They use them to initiate conversations. We've looked at, well,

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they have hundreds of signs in their vocabulary. They use them flexibly. They use them appropriately.

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They use them spontaneously. They use them with each other and with humans. They initiate

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conversations. They repair misunderstandings. So all of the decades of research show that there's,

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it's far more than just a parlor trick. If it were just conditioning, if they were just imitating,

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they wouldn't be signing to each other. And they wouldn't be initiating the kinds of conversations

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that they're initiating. Some just simply to comment on the world or start activities or that

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kind of thing. So yeah, it's more than just a trick.

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I think, and you said that in your answer, but I think part of the reason why observing a chimpanzee

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communicating with sign language is such an astonishing vision is because we don't expect

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that from animals. I think we are brought up to think of animals as objects and it is reflected

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in our laws. You know, most animals have the legal status of a piece of property and many people don't

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even think of animals as sentient beings. Yet humans and animals share a lot in common. In fact,

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we are animals. We are part of the animal kingdom and it is particularly true in the case of primates,

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which is the evolutionary family to which homo sapiens belong. So could you tell us more about

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primates and what traits do human beings share with primates?

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Well, as you've pointed out, we are a primate and so the traits that we all share, we primates,

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the things that separate primates from perhaps canines or felids or other orders of animals.

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We all have very large brains. I would say with humans, it's particularly large, the cortex,

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the outer region of the brain is particularly large. We all rely on vision. So vision is

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something that we're highly adapted to use. Primates have, even if you look at their

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sort of the bony structure around the eyes, eyes are in sockets, inside of a socket, so they're

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very well protected. There's a lot of redundancy in the wiring. There's a lot of the brain

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devoted to a visual cortex as opposed to maybe a dog where there's more parts of the brain that

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are going to be devoted to olfaction. So we've got this vision. We have to go along with that. We're

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highly social, so almost all primates live in social groups. Then if you think about living in

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a social group, all critters have to communicate. So we have to be very, very careful about that.

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All critters have to communicate, but we're communicating primarily visually. So then we

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have adaptations for that. The face is hairless. We have a huge amount of musculature in our faces

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so we can make different facial expressions. We communicate with body postures and with gestures.

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So gestures are not just used in American sign language. They're used in many languages of

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deaf cultures across the globe, but also non-human primates use them, use gestures to communicate as

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well. So with that, we all primates have hands as opposed to like a hoof or a claw.

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The fingers are independent digits so they can grasp. We have nails instead of claws.

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I think sometimes when people look at little monkeys with their little faces and they have

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these tiny little hands, we all have hands. We have free moving limbs so we can swing our arms around.

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Humans actually can do that less. If you think about an orangutan, their hip can rotate as much

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as we can rotate our shoulder. And let's see, some of the other characteristics then we have

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most primates have a tendency towards single birth rather than having a litter or a whole bunch of

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babies. And if you think about parental investment, the investment is in trying to ensure that that

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individual survives rather than if you think about a salmon, their strategy is they just lay

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thousands of eggs and then they die. So their investment is in sort of creating all of those

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eggs, whereas primates tend to have a single birth. The growth spurt, all organisms have a growth

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spurt and in primates it's delayed. We call it adolescence, but that occurs across primates.

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And so that allows for this longer period of dependency and it's a period of time where this

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infant and later child with this big brain that's communicating visually is starting to learn

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information from the individuals in their group, including mom. So that is another sort of hallmark,

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is this single birth that tend to be spaced out and this kind of heavy investment in those

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individuals to make sure that they survive. So those are the general characteristics that

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all primates share. And what about the differences? Because there's a lot of diversity

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under the umbrella of the term primate. Could you tell us what is the difference between a

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chimpanzee and a monkey? Yeah, so there's within the order of primates, there are sort of three

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large groups that you can think of. One is apes, but I'll start at the other, another group that

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is sort of less related to us. And when I say that we can think in terms of evolution and how long

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ago we shared an ancestor with certain organisms. Not that those organisms stopped evolving because

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we're all evolving. Some people have this misconception that humans are more evolved

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than other species, which is so arrogant. If you are not evolving and adapting to your environment,

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then you're extinct, which is part of the issue with climate change. So with lemurs, that's

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the group that diverged the furthest ago. And those are lemurs, other kinds of prosimmians.

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And then there's monkeys. Monkeys tend to have tails. They occur both in the Americas and also

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Europe, Africa, and Asia. So I think there's work to change the name, but there's new world

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primates and old world primates. And they're smaller than apes and they have tails. And then

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with apes existing today, there's humans. There's a group called pan, which includes

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pantroglodytes, which are chimpanzees, and then panpaniscus, which are bonobos.

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And then there's gorillas and there's orangutans. So the orangutans occur in Asia. They

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diverged first from this African lineage, I guess you would say. Then gorillas split off.

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And then the pan group split off from homo. And actually, we're

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more closely related, these two groups, than African and Asian elephants are related to each

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other. So we're really, really sibling species. And then after that split, that's when bonobos and

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chimps split off from each other. So chimps and bonobos are more closely related to humans than

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they actually are to gorillas. So that's a quick run through of the different groups of primates.

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That's impressive. And if I asked, do primates experience sorrow in terms of social behaviors?

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Do they experience sorrow? Can they experience humor? Things that we generally think of them as

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being exclusive experiences to humans. Would you accuse me of anthropomorphizing

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primates? Or is it something that we could go ahead and make that assessment?

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Yeah, it's funny. Anthropomorphizing is such a bad word. And I put that in quotes. Because

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as a culture, and I think science has made more steps towards talking about emotions.

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In non-human animals, certainly with the signing chimps, you can see examples of it because they

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can, I mean, Tatu can tell me if she's sorry about something and she can apologize. And we

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have witnessed grief, if that's what we know. And so I think that's a good example of what

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we have witnessed grief. If that's what we mean by sorrow, we definitely see that. And humor,

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you can see chimps engaging in activities and they've got big play faces and they're laughing.

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And with the signing chimps, they can tell us if something is funny. So we definitely see

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these range of emotions. And as you know, probably that we're reluctant to assign those.

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Because what does that mean about how we're treating them? That's really the bigger picture.

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Yes. Are we ready to go forth with those, to accept those observations and then question

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our culture and the way we have positioned the status of non-human animals in our world?

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It's all very fascinating. And you just made quite a case on how complex creatures primates are.

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And many biologists and ethical philosophers argue that primates should be treated like people,

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basically. And I mentioned the law earlier and I wonder, does the law in the US, Canada,

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and elsewhere recognizes that complexity, even the personhood or the sentence of primates?

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No, we don't. Well, this question of personhood, I'm not a lawyer, but assigning personhood,

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which the Non-Human Rights Project headed up by Stephen Wise has made huge steps in that regard.

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And it is on the basis of assigning personhood. He began that with chimpanzees, but has since

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expanded it to elephants and cetaceans, because they also share many of these characteristics of

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long life and social complexity and the things that long life and social complexity are not the

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reasons for personhood. So I think it's more in terms of agency, but it basically moves them out

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of the, stops them from being an object. There are countries, I think New Zealand, Argentina,

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that have assigned personhood. There have been cases where there was an orangutan that had to be

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released from the zoo that she was in. She now lives at a sanctuary in Florida,

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because it was found that she had that status of personhood. So we're slowly coming along, but

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there's a long road ahead of us. I think it's going to take a long time for this kind of thing to

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happen. I think in terms of recognizing the complexity and the sentience, I do think in

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regard to sentience, we're coming along. You'll see news articles now where people are talking about

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lobsters feeling pain and there are organisms that are just so far divergent from us, but they're

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having experiences. Look at all the hoopla about octopus. So we are recognizing

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that there's a lot going on with other species. One of the things with starting with apes is because

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it's kind of easy to slip that one in on people because, well, first they can talk to us with

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signs and people begin to see that similarity, but I feel like once people recognize the similarity

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between humans and our next of kin, essentially chimpanzees, then they start to wonder about other

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groups of animals and, well, what about monkeys? What about rats and sea urchins and all those kind

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of things? I do think things are... There's movement. It's just when you think about

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the thousands and thousands of animals that are in laboratories and that are on people's plates,

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that's where it's one thing to think that, oh yeah, my dog can feel things. It's another when you

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think that the hamburger on your plate might've had a pretty miserable experience before it got there.

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Thousands, more like billions. Yes, right. Sorry, right.

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But in the case of, for instance, chimpanzees, I feel like it's not a big concession to make.

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They have, like you said, they have faces and we can communicate with them using sign language.

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Why is it so difficult to grant them with personhood status? Why is it so difficult to grant them with

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personhood status in the laws? And I know you're not a lawyer, but do you know what is that

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obstacle that stops us from granting that legal status? It's a slippery slope. It's a good slippery

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slope, but I think it's that sense of if we give an inch, then they're going to take a mile.

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So if you start with chimps, then what? Now then you're going to make a legal case to get an elephant

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out of a zoo or work out of a marine park. So it's exactly that. And that was the worry with when

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biomedical research ended for chimps in the U.S. You know, the worry was, well,

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what are they going to come after monkeys next? It's like, yeah,

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yeah, we are. It's going to be another long haul, but that's going to happen. And

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I think it's just that. It's just a slippery slope. What next?

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I don't want to ask this next question, but I think it's an important one to ask. If primates

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are not well protected by the law or not even protected by the law, they must be a prey to a

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number of abuses. What kind of abuses primates face across the world?

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Well, I'll just start with, you know, with home. So monkeys are used extensively in biomedical

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research in Canada and the U.S. We both countries continue to import them. You know, there's a

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recently was a whole ring that's been involved in illegal. Basically, they're bringing monkeys in

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that were, you know, so they have these, well, another air quote here, farms in Asia for like

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long tail macaques. So they're used really heavily in research with COVID. There was a big push, you

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know, the industry can sound the alarm. Oh, my gosh, you know, now we got to rev things up because

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we've got this disease that we have to do research about. So, you know, there's such a huge demand.

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There's a higher demand for monkeys. We don't import them from China anymore. So that was kind

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of a big source was cut off there. And these this smuggling ring, they're there while they claim

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that they're breeding chimps for export from Cambodia. But I think that's a big source.

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So they're not in Cambodia. But it turns out that also wild caught ones were being supplied to these

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places. And then when they arrive here in the Americas, they're not you can't tell which is

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which. So that is quite a quite a thing to the point that long tail macaques now are becoming

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endangered. There's so much of that going on. You know, life in a laboratory is a pretty

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miserable thing. Often they're living alone in an enclosure, they're subjected to all sorts of

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different procedures based on what research protocol they're in. You know, just for an

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organism that's a critter that's so socially complex, being alone or even in a pair is not

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not a good life. And, you know, they they have a sense of, of what's happening. I wouldn't

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argue that it's any worse, though, for for a monkey than it is for a pig or dog. So,

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yeah, so that's, those are the kind of things. And then of course, you know, there's, as I,

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as I mentioned, in the in the wild, you know, there's threats to habitat, that sort of thing.

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But really, the main thing it's, it's, is, is biomedical research monkeys are really used

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heavily in that heavy, heavy, big time. And

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are there any like guardrails? Like, are they using while experimenting on primates? Are they

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using like anesthetics or any kind of, you know, painkillers? Are there some rules about, you know,

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the cage in which they are like, should it be that big? Or it's at the discretion of the of the lab?

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Or is it just, you know, the wild?

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Yeah, there are, there's the Canadian Research Council and in Canada that has it's not laws.

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In Canada that has, it's not laws. They're sort of best practices, if you will. And you do have

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to treat them humanely. I'm not sure if there's a specification for cage size. My guess is probably

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yes. In the US there is. It's big enough to make normal postural adjustments. And then they,

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it's actually specified in the US, which usually lags behind in animal welfare and protection.

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It is a law. There's the Animal Welfare Act is a law. In Canada doesn't have this same level of

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protection, which is, which is a real surprising issue because Canada is often, you know, up there

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with Europe in terms of animal protection, but not necessarily in labs.

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And, you know, there's stipulations for providing enrichment. You are supposed

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to provide for anesthesia and pain control and that, and that kind of thing.

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So, so that's there, but I still would argue that, you know, I mean, the kinds of things,

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I mean, they're doing mutilations and all sorts of things that will,

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it's, it's just, it's just too much. You know, I mean, it's even, even if you ended the research

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itself, just the enclosures and the way that they're living is so, is so awful.

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And such a, such a lack of, you know, living in a sterile cage, you know, such a, such a lack of

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variety and enrichment and that, and that kind of thing. But I'm, I also feel like captivity for

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apes is not, it's really impossible for us to, to, to be able to do that.

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And I also feel like captivity for apes is not, it's really impossible for us to provide for them

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as compared to what they could potentially live in the wild, if that's where they were born.

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So even in the very best sanctuaries, they've got a, they've got a, a good life, I put that in quotes.

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It's still captivity. It's a, it's a good incarceration. And I think it's important for us not to,

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to sugarcoat and think that it's, well, if they're in a sanctuary, it's okay. It's, it's,

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it's still not okay. I think we need to be moving to a place where that just doesn't happen.

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Yes. And we're using a lot of euphemisms, but we're talking about torture here,

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torture with guardrails. And it is the law, but it is not the most well enforced law in the land.

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So, so yeah, we should be aware of that. Yeah.

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Now, to be more negative, positive. Now, there are a few heroes like yourself, who stand up for

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welfare of animals and who have welcomed in their circle of compassion, not just humans,

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but other animals. And you on orders have created a special place, a sanctuary called

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Fonor. And I'm so glad that such a place exists. Could you tell us more about what is Fonor?

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How did it come to exist? And what is its mission? Yeah. So Fonor is the only chimpanzee sanctuary

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in Canada. It came into existence Gloria Grow as our director and founder. And she and I actually

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met in the mid nineties. She came to the chimpanzee and human communication Institute where we had

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the sign language project. And we invited people to come and help us with our research through

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Earthwatch program. And in that, in educating the folks that came, we talked about biomedical

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research. And so when Gloria learned about that, she decided she wanted to start her, her own

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chimpanzee sanctuary. And so she lived in Caringham. So that's where she started her sanctuary. And

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LEMCIP was the laboratory for experimental and medical surgery and primates. They were doing

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vaccine research. They were infecting chimps with hepatitis C, HIV, and Gloria

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wanted, you know, then LEMCIP decided that it was going to stop doing that and divested itself of

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their chimps. And so Gloria took, she took 15 chimps from LEMCIP. And then over the years,

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other chimps came there, other chimps from zoos in Quebec. So Park Safari, there was a zoo in

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Saint-Félicien, excuse my accent, or lack of accent. And also the Quebec City Zoo. So

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other chimps came. And then Tattoo and Lulis also came from the US when the Chimpanzee and Human

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Communications Institute closed. So there also have been monkeys. We have one monkey now, Newton, and

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monkeys have come to fauna from biomedical research on other chimps. And so they have been

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fauna from biomedical research, and also the pet industry. And so our mission, that's how fauna

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came to exist. And the mission is to provide sanctuary, also to provide education about

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chimpanzees and our other fellow beings, and also conservation. So fauna sits on about 300 acres of

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green space just outside of Montreal in an area that's being heavily developed. So the original

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intention was to create a buffer around the chimps, but it's come to be a place that attracts all

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sorts of wildlife. And there's endangered species there, migratory birds. And so that also is part

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of our mission. Wow. And you also have, you know, farm animals, I believe. Yes, fauna started as a

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farm animal sanctuary. The only farm animals that are left at fauna now are, it's a flock of domestic

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geese. And fauna is no longer doing any active rescuing. We're really hitting the the sunset

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of our mission and just providing the best care to the chimps that are there and Newton, the monkey,

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and the geese. There's no other chimpanzees in all of Canada. There are orangutans and gorillas

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and zoos, but there's no other chimps. So there's really no one to come to us.

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So that part of the mission is that we're just riding that one out, so to speak. But it may take

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a long time because chimps live a long time and we've still got a full house of

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wonderful beings. Yeah. So that's... And it's their home now. And by the way,

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you're the last person who should apologize about an accent. I mean...

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So I would love to know more about, you know, you named some of them like Newton. I would love

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to know more about some of fauna's residents. Who are they? What is their life story? And

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what is their life currently at fauna? Yeah. So our main tree, our oldest resident,

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Sue Ellen, I think Sue Ellen is 56. And Sue Ellen was originally a sidekick in a circus when she was

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little. And then when she got too big, she was dumped at LEMSIP and spent 15 years in biomedical

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research and was infected with the HIV virus. It turns out chimps don't get AIDS or don't develop

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AIDS. So that just goes to show that they're not good models for that. And often, you know,

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the industry claims that we need these models, but often they're not, you know, we get erroneous

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findings. So anyway, then Sue Ellen came to fauna as part of the older group of chimps. She's...

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about six years ago, she lost the use of her legs. And we never figured out what caused it.

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But it took her years, you know, she could use her arms to move around. And we sort of tricked out

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her enclosure with straps and bars and so that she could have some mobility. And, you know,

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many places would have euthanized her, but not at fauna. And she has regained her ability to walk.

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And, you know, she's always keeping watch. She likes to watch all the guys that work at fauna.

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She's particularly fond of men. So that's Sue. She often will wear a little kind of a tutu or

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something like that, which on one hand, it's, you know, I mean, it makes for a great picture.

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But on the other hand, it reminds us of, it probably is some kind of a throwback in her

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mind from when she was in the circus. Another one of our residents, Rachel, Rachel was raised

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in a human home for the first three years of her life, like a pet. And then she was dumped at

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and then she was dumped at LEMCIP. And then Rachel came to fauna along with the other LEMCIP

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chimps in 1997. Rachel has a diagnosis of PTSD. And she still, she still, you know,

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is still suffers with that. And it's not as bad as it was in the beginning when she first arrived,

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but she still has that. So, you know, even when we bring

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chimps to sanctuary, there's still this, you know, sort of train wreck that they're,

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that they're carrying around different individuals of different levels of regret.

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Sue Ellen is not like that at all. She's a super strong personality, but Rachel really, really

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suffers. But she's very into her, she loves her caregivers. And she carries around these little

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stuffed gorillas, which Binky has recently, Binky is another one of the chimps from fauna. He's

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recently been taking her little stuffed gorillas, you know, kind of like a brother and sister sort

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of a thing there. So those, those are some of the residents there. Yeah. And then we have Tatu and

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Lulis who sign language. Tatu was raised like a human child, as I said. And again, that research

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never to be repeated in no way ethical. But, you know, the chimps are stamped with this and

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sort of this indelible mark that they can talk with their hands now. And then Lulis,

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he learned his sign language from other chimpanzees. So, so that's, that's, that's those two.

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That's amazing. He learned that just from being in contact with some chimpanzees who had

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that knowledge. So there was like a schooling, like education, basically.

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Yeah. I would say it's more like the way that we learn, learn our first language. You know, I,

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you can in school, actually, that's like the worst way to learn a language,

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unless you're in an immersive classroom. But the way that you learn and acquire languages is really

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being immersed in that environment. And so Lulis was, his mother was Washo. So the first Washo

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adopted Lulis. And then in that research, no humans were allowed to sign around Lulis. So

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his only input was from Washo and other signing chimps. And he began to sign in a week.

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You know, it's like super amazing. But it, it, it turns out that when we look at what is going on

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in the wild, of course, we didn't know on this level back in the seventies when this research

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was going. But now we know that chimps in the wild use gestures, they use gestures that are specific

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to their community. So, you know, they're, it's, they're, they're acquiring the sort of vocabulary,

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if you will, of that, that community, so they can, we're seeing, you know, differences amongst them.

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These, again, the gestures are learned. That's what little chimps do. They

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acquire the gestures of the humans around them, just like little humans do that as well. So,

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yeah, so it's, it's that experiment is happening in the wild every day, so to speak.

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That's amazing. That's truly amazing. My last question for you, Dr.

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is, why is it so important to be compassionate? And how can listeners make a difference? I thought,

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I told them, you know, you can visit for our foundation.org. I think there, they can learn

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more about the residents on the website, there's even a program called Adopt a Chimp, which is

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amazing. But, you know, if we take a few step backs, and we talk about what is at the heart

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of this conversation, you know, compassion, why is it so important to include animals in our

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circle of compassion? Yeah, I let that question, you know, open like that. So, answer that question,

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you know, open like that. So, answer the way you want. Yeah, well, and so I, I would take it a

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little bit further. And I think if we view, you know, everything on the planet with sort of that

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awe and wonder that comes with compassion, I, I, well, imagine how we would treat our fellow humans,

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if we were able to extend our circle of compassion. And, and, you know, it, it's, it's just, I guess

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it's the, the characteristics that, that come with having a wider circle of compassion are ones that

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are, ones that everybody could use. I have a kid, a teenage kid who spends a lot of time watching

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these Karen videos, and it's like, it's so toxic, but this is true. This is the way people are.

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And sort of the opposite of that is being compassionate and being humble and asking

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what it is that other individuals bring to the table and realizing that, you know, everybody,

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whether you're human or, or you're a chimp or whether you're a monkey or whether you're an oak

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tree, everybody's just trying to get through the day. And that, you know, just realizing that

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that's what we have in common. I think it makes people kinder, doesn't it? I wholeheartedly agree.

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And I would add, it makes life so much more pleasant, you know, it's just, you know,

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pleasant to be compassionate to others, including animals to be generous with your compassion.

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And it just makes your life more peaceful, more, more happy life. Yeah. And I just want to interrupt

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you because you said something that struck a chord when you said generous. And I agree with you

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because we won't run out. It's not like I'll only have so much compassion in my bucket.

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Yes, exactly. Why not? I mean, it's not, we're not spending money here.

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Yes, I'm happy that we agree on that. Would you like to add something before we end this conversation?

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Yeah, well, I think, you know, what can people do? I, you know, I'm always urging people to pay

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attention to what is going on in the biomedical industry and what, you know, there's labs all

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over the place. You wouldn't know it, but they're all over the place. They keep pretty on the low

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down. And yeah, read, educate yourself. I think the more that we know, the easier it is to have

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compassion. The more you understand what's going on in our world and educating ourselves.

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Amazing. Again, thank you so much, Mary Lee for taking the time to answer my question.

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Well, thanks for featuring Fana and thanks for doing this podcast because this is people

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listening is one other way that we can change ourselves and hopefully change everybody.

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Of course, it's my pleasure. Thank you everyone for listening. What an honor to have met Dr.

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Jens Vold. Go support the Fana Foundation. I left a link to their website in the description below.

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Share this episode with family and friends and spread the word about experiments on primates.

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I'm very excited for next week's episode. You are going to hear me talk with Colin,

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who used to work for the animal industry like ranches and slaughterhouses, but he's now vegan.

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It's a fascinating conversation and Colin's journey to veganism is very inspiring. So subscribe now

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and don't miss out on next week's episode. If you like this podcast, take the time to leave

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a good review. It would mean a lot. I'm also on Instagram if you want to reach out at veganreportpodcast.

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Thank you again for listening. Take care and see you next week.