Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you're listening to The Vegan Report.
If you're vegan for the animals and you care to do more for animal rights, but you're not sure
where to start, then this podcast is for you. Every week, let yourself fall in love with
passionate animal rights leaders who will inspire you to find your voice, your own special
contribution to the animal rights movement, however small or big it is. Today we are going
to talk about compassion and how to extend our compassion not only to fellow homo sapiens,
but also to other primates like chimps or monkeys. I have with me Dr. Mary Lee Jensvold.
Mary Lee Jensvold is a primate communication scientist and associate director at Fona
Foundation. I invite everyone to visit the Fona Foundation website at fonafoundation.org.
You can find more details in the description below. She has spent her career working with
the signing chimpanzees, Waxu, I think that's how you pronounce the name, and her family. Mary Lee
is the former director of the Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute at Central Washington
University. Her interests in chimpanzee sanctuaries include care, practices, behavior, design,
and welfare. Her expertise is in chimpanzee behavior and communication. She's a senior
lecturer in the primate behavior and ecology program and anthropology department at Central
Washington University. She has numerous publications in journals and books. Thank you very much,
Mary Lee, for being a guest on this podcast. Well, thank you for having me. I'm looking
forward to it. It's so great that you're featuring Fona Foundation. Amazing. You are an expert in
primate communication. And one of the most mind-blowing thing I have ever watched is a
chimpanzee using sign language. And it is so astonishing that you wonder, is it real?
Do great apes who are, I think, the only primates who can learn sign language, do great apes really
have a grasp of language? Or is it just a conditioning trick, like a parrot saying a word
to get a treat? Well, we find over the years, it's interesting it remains so controversial because
it rattles the foundation of who we are as a species. And some of the chimps were raised
like human children. And they acquire signs in that environment. So they acquire them in patterns
that resemble human children. They use them to initiate conversations. We've looked at, well,
they have hundreds of signs in their vocabulary. They use them flexibly. They use them appropriately.
They use them spontaneously. They use them with each other and with humans. They initiate
conversations. They repair misunderstandings. So all of the decades of research show that there's,
it's far more than just a parlor trick. If it were just conditioning, if they were just imitating,
they wouldn't be signing to each other. And they wouldn't be initiating the kinds of conversations
that they're initiating. Some just simply to comment on the world or start activities or that
kind of thing. So yeah, it's more than just a trick.
I think, and you said that in your answer, but I think part of the reason why observing a chimpanzee
communicating with sign language is such an astonishing vision is because we don't expect
that from animals. I think we are brought up to think of animals as objects and it is reflected
in our laws. You know, most animals have the legal status of a piece of property and many people don't
even think of animals as sentient beings. Yet humans and animals share a lot in common. In fact,
we are animals. We are part of the animal kingdom and it is particularly true in the case of primates,
which is the evolutionary family to which homo sapiens belong. So could you tell us more about
primates and what traits do human beings share with primates?
Well, as you've pointed out, we are a primate and so the traits that we all share, we primates,
the things that separate primates from perhaps canines or felids or other orders of animals.
We all have very large brains. I would say with humans, it's particularly large, the cortex,
the outer region of the brain is particularly large. We all rely on vision. So vision is
something that we're highly adapted to use. Primates have, even if you look at their
sort of the bony structure around the eyes, eyes are in sockets, inside of a socket, so they're
very well protected. There's a lot of redundancy in the wiring. There's a lot of the brain
devoted to a visual cortex as opposed to maybe a dog where there's more parts of the brain that
are going to be devoted to olfaction. So we've got this vision. We have to go along with that. We're
highly social, so almost all primates live in social groups. Then if you think about living in
a social group, all critters have to communicate. So we have to be very, very careful about that.
All critters have to communicate, but we're communicating primarily visually. So then we
have adaptations for that. The face is hairless. We have a huge amount of musculature in our faces
so we can make different facial expressions. We communicate with body postures and with gestures.
So gestures are not just used in American sign language. They're used in many languages of
deaf cultures across the globe, but also non-human primates use them, use gestures to communicate as
well. So with that, we all primates have hands as opposed to like a hoof or a claw.
The fingers are independent digits so they can grasp. We have nails instead of claws.
I think sometimes when people look at little monkeys with their little faces and they have
these tiny little hands, we all have hands. We have free moving limbs so we can swing our arms around.
Humans actually can do that less. If you think about an orangutan, their hip can rotate as much
as we can rotate our shoulder. And let's see, some of the other characteristics then we have
most primates have a tendency towards single birth rather than having a litter or a whole bunch of
babies. And if you think about parental investment, the investment is in trying to ensure that that
individual survives rather than if you think about a salmon, their strategy is they just lay
thousands of eggs and then they die. So their investment is in sort of creating all of those
eggs, whereas primates tend to have a single birth. The growth spurt, all organisms have a growth
spurt and in primates it's delayed. We call it adolescence, but that occurs across primates.
And so that allows for this longer period of dependency and it's a period of time where this
infant and later child with this big brain that's communicating visually is starting to learn
information from the individuals in their group, including mom. So that is another sort of hallmark,
is this single birth that tend to be spaced out and this kind of heavy investment in those
individuals to make sure that they survive. So those are the general characteristics that
all primates share. And what about the differences? Because there's a lot of diversity
under the umbrella of the term primate. Could you tell us what is the difference between a
chimpanzee and a monkey? Yeah, so there's within the order of primates, there are sort of three
large groups that you can think of. One is apes, but I'll start at the other, another group that
is sort of less related to us. And when I say that we can think in terms of evolution and how long
ago we shared an ancestor with certain organisms. Not that those organisms stopped evolving because
we're all evolving. Some people have this misconception that humans are more evolved
than other species, which is so arrogant. If you are not evolving and adapting to your environment,
then you're extinct, which is part of the issue with climate change. So with lemurs, that's
the group that diverged the furthest ago. And those are lemurs, other kinds of prosimmians.
And then there's monkeys. Monkeys tend to have tails. They occur both in the Americas and also
Europe, Africa, and Asia. So I think there's work to change the name, but there's new world
primates and old world primates. And they're smaller than apes and they have tails. And then
with apes existing today, there's humans. There's a group called pan, which includes
pantroglodytes, which are chimpanzees, and then panpaniscus, which are bonobos.
And then there's gorillas and there's orangutans. So the orangutans occur in Asia. They
diverged first from this African lineage, I guess you would say. Then gorillas split off.
And then the pan group split off from homo. And actually, we're
more closely related, these two groups, than African and Asian elephants are related to each
other. So we're really, really sibling species. And then after that split, that's when bonobos and
chimps split off from each other. So chimps and bonobos are more closely related to humans than
they actually are to gorillas. So that's a quick run through of the different groups of primates.
That's impressive. And if I asked, do primates experience sorrow in terms of social behaviors?
Do they experience sorrow? Can they experience humor? Things that we generally think of them as
being exclusive experiences to humans. Would you accuse me of anthropomorphizing
primates? Or is it something that we could go ahead and make that assessment?
Yeah, it's funny. Anthropomorphizing is such a bad word. And I put that in quotes. Because
as a culture, and I think science has made more steps towards talking about emotions.
In non-human animals, certainly with the signing chimps, you can see examples of it because they
can, I mean, Tatu can tell me if she's sorry about something and she can apologize. And we
have witnessed grief, if that's what we know. And so I think that's a good example of what
we have witnessed grief. If that's what we mean by sorrow, we definitely see that. And humor,
you can see chimps engaging in activities and they've got big play faces and they're laughing.
And with the signing chimps, they can tell us if something is funny. So we definitely see
these range of emotions. And as you know, probably that we're reluctant to assign those.
Because what does that mean about how we're treating them? That's really the bigger picture.
Yes. Are we ready to go forth with those, to accept those observations and then question
our culture and the way we have positioned the status of non-human animals in our world?
It's all very fascinating. And you just made quite a case on how complex creatures primates are.
And many biologists and ethical philosophers argue that primates should be treated like people,
basically. And I mentioned the law earlier and I wonder, does the law in the US, Canada,
and elsewhere recognizes that complexity, even the personhood or the sentence of primates?
No, we don't. Well, this question of personhood, I'm not a lawyer, but assigning personhood,
which the Non-Human Rights Project headed up by Stephen Wise has made huge steps in that regard.
And it is on the basis of assigning personhood. He began that with chimpanzees, but has since
expanded it to elephants and cetaceans, because they also share many of these characteristics of
long life and social complexity and the things that long life and social complexity are not the
reasons for personhood. So I think it's more in terms of agency, but it basically moves them out
of the, stops them from being an object. There are countries, I think New Zealand, Argentina,
that have assigned personhood. There have been cases where there was an orangutan that had to be
released from the zoo that she was in. She now lives at a sanctuary in Florida,
because it was found that she had that status of personhood. So we're slowly coming along, but
there's a long road ahead of us. I think it's going to take a long time for this kind of thing to
happen. I think in terms of recognizing the complexity and the sentience, I do think in
regard to sentience, we're coming along. You'll see news articles now where people are talking about
lobsters feeling pain and there are organisms that are just so far divergent from us, but they're
having experiences. Look at all the hoopla about octopus. So we are recognizing
that there's a lot going on with other species. One of the things with starting with apes is because
it's kind of easy to slip that one in on people because, well, first they can talk to us with
signs and people begin to see that similarity, but I feel like once people recognize the similarity
between humans and our next of kin, essentially chimpanzees, then they start to wonder about other
groups of animals and, well, what about monkeys? What about rats and sea urchins and all those kind
of things? I do think things are... There's movement. It's just when you think about
the thousands and thousands of animals that are in laboratories and that are on people's plates,
that's where it's one thing to think that, oh yeah, my dog can feel things. It's another when you
think that the hamburger on your plate might've had a pretty miserable experience before it got there.
Thousands, more like billions. Yes, right. Sorry, right.
But in the case of, for instance, chimpanzees, I feel like it's not a big concession to make.
They have, like you said, they have faces and we can communicate with them using sign language.
Why is it so difficult to grant them with personhood status? Why is it so difficult to grant them with
personhood status in the laws? And I know you're not a lawyer, but do you know what is that
obstacle that stops us from granting that legal status? It's a slippery slope. It's a good slippery
slope, but I think it's that sense of if we give an inch, then they're going to take a mile.
So if you start with chimps, then what? Now then you're going to make a legal case to get an elephant
out of a zoo or work out of a marine park. So it's exactly that. And that was the worry with when
biomedical research ended for chimps in the U.S. You know, the worry was, well,
what are they going to come after monkeys next? It's like, yeah,
yeah, we are. It's going to be another long haul, but that's going to happen. And
I think it's just that. It's just a slippery slope. What next?
I don't want to ask this next question, but I think it's an important one to ask. If primates
are not well protected by the law or not even protected by the law, they must be a prey to a
number of abuses. What kind of abuses primates face across the world?
Well, I'll just start with, you know, with home. So monkeys are used extensively in biomedical
research in Canada and the U.S. We both countries continue to import them. You know, there's a
recently was a whole ring that's been involved in illegal. Basically, they're bringing monkeys in
that were, you know, so they have these, well, another air quote here, farms in Asia for like
long tail macaques. So they're used really heavily in research with COVID. There was a big push, you
know, the industry can sound the alarm. Oh, my gosh, you know, now we got to rev things up because
we've got this disease that we have to do research about. So, you know, there's such a huge demand.
There's a higher demand for monkeys. We don't import them from China anymore. So that was kind
of a big source was cut off there. And these this smuggling ring, they're there while they claim
that they're breeding chimps for export from Cambodia. But I think that's a big source.
So they're not in Cambodia. But it turns out that also wild caught ones were being supplied to these
places. And then when they arrive here in the Americas, they're not you can't tell which is
which. So that is quite a quite a thing to the point that long tail macaques now are becoming
endangered. There's so much of that going on. You know, life in a laboratory is a pretty
miserable thing. Often they're living alone in an enclosure, they're subjected to all sorts of
different procedures based on what research protocol they're in. You know, just for an
organism that's a critter that's so socially complex, being alone or even in a pair is not
not a good life. And, you know, they they have a sense of, of what's happening. I wouldn't
argue that it's any worse, though, for for a monkey than it is for a pig or dog. So,
yeah, so that's, those are the kind of things. And then of course, you know, there's, as I,
as I mentioned, in the in the wild, you know, there's threats to habitat, that sort of thing.
But really, the main thing it's, it's, is, is biomedical research monkeys are really used
heavily in that heavy, heavy, big time. And
are there any like guardrails? Like, are they using while experimenting on primates? Are they
using like anesthetics or any kind of, you know, painkillers? Are there some rules about, you know,
the cage in which they are like, should it be that big? Or it's at the discretion of the of the lab?
Or is it just, you know, the wild?
Yeah, there are, there's the Canadian Research Council and in Canada that has it's not laws.
In Canada that has, it's not laws. They're sort of best practices, if you will. And you do have
to treat them humanely. I'm not sure if there's a specification for cage size. My guess is probably
yes. In the US there is. It's big enough to make normal postural adjustments. And then they,
it's actually specified in the US, which usually lags behind in animal welfare and protection.
It is a law. There's the Animal Welfare Act is a law. In Canada doesn't have this same level of
protection, which is, which is a real surprising issue because Canada is often, you know, up there
with Europe in terms of animal protection, but not necessarily in labs.
And, you know, there's stipulations for providing enrichment. You are supposed
to provide for anesthesia and pain control and that, and that kind of thing.
So, so that's there, but I still would argue that, you know, I mean, the kinds of things,
I mean, they're doing mutilations and all sorts of things that will,
it's, it's just, it's just too much. You know, I mean, it's even, even if you ended the research
itself, just the enclosures and the way that they're living is so, is so awful.
And such a, such a lack of, you know, living in a sterile cage, you know, such a, such a lack of
variety and enrichment and that, and that kind of thing. But I'm, I also feel like captivity for
apes is not, it's really impossible for us to, to, to be able to do that.
And I also feel like captivity for apes is not, it's really impossible for us to provide for them
as compared to what they could potentially live in the wild, if that's where they were born.
So even in the very best sanctuaries, they've got a, they've got a, a good life, I put that in quotes.
It's still captivity. It's a, it's a good incarceration. And I think it's important for us not to,
to sugarcoat and think that it's, well, if they're in a sanctuary, it's okay. It's, it's,
it's still not okay. I think we need to be moving to a place where that just doesn't happen.
Yes. And we're using a lot of euphemisms, but we're talking about torture here,
torture with guardrails. And it is the law, but it is not the most well enforced law in the land.
So, so yeah, we should be aware of that. Yeah.
Now, to be more negative, positive. Now, there are a few heroes like yourself, who stand up for
welfare of animals and who have welcomed in their circle of compassion, not just humans,
but other animals. And you on orders have created a special place, a sanctuary called
Fonor. And I'm so glad that such a place exists. Could you tell us more about what is Fonor?
How did it come to exist? And what is its mission? Yeah. So Fonor is the only chimpanzee sanctuary
in Canada. It came into existence Gloria Grow as our director and founder. And she and I actually
met in the mid nineties. She came to the chimpanzee and human communication Institute where we had
the sign language project. And we invited people to come and help us with our research through
Earthwatch program. And in that, in educating the folks that came, we talked about biomedical
research. And so when Gloria learned about that, she decided she wanted to start her, her own
chimpanzee sanctuary. And so she lived in Caringham. So that's where she started her sanctuary. And
LEMCIP was the laboratory for experimental and medical surgery and primates. They were doing
vaccine research. They were infecting chimps with hepatitis C, HIV, and Gloria
wanted, you know, then LEMCIP decided that it was going to stop doing that and divested itself of
their chimps. And so Gloria took, she took 15 chimps from LEMCIP. And then over the years,
other chimps came there, other chimps from zoos in Quebec. So Park Safari, there was a zoo in
Saint-Félicien, excuse my accent, or lack of accent. And also the Quebec City Zoo. So
other chimps came. And then Tattoo and Lulis also came from the US when the Chimpanzee and Human
Communications Institute closed. So there also have been monkeys. We have one monkey now, Newton, and
monkeys have come to fauna from biomedical research on other chimps. And so they have been
fauna from biomedical research, and also the pet industry. And so our mission, that's how fauna
came to exist. And the mission is to provide sanctuary, also to provide education about
chimpanzees and our other fellow beings, and also conservation. So fauna sits on about 300 acres of
green space just outside of Montreal in an area that's being heavily developed. So the original
intention was to create a buffer around the chimps, but it's come to be a place that attracts all
sorts of wildlife. And there's endangered species there, migratory birds. And so that also is part
of our mission. Wow. And you also have, you know, farm animals, I believe. Yes, fauna started as a
farm animal sanctuary. The only farm animals that are left at fauna now are, it's a flock of domestic
geese. And fauna is no longer doing any active rescuing. We're really hitting the the sunset
of our mission and just providing the best care to the chimps that are there and Newton, the monkey,
and the geese. There's no other chimpanzees in all of Canada. There are orangutans and gorillas
and zoos, but there's no other chimps. So there's really no one to come to us.
So that part of the mission is that we're just riding that one out, so to speak. But it may take
a long time because chimps live a long time and we've still got a full house of
wonderful beings. Yeah. So that's... And it's their home now. And by the way,
you're the last person who should apologize about an accent. I mean...
So I would love to know more about, you know, you named some of them like Newton. I would love
to know more about some of fauna's residents. Who are they? What is their life story? And
what is their life currently at fauna? Yeah. So our main tree, our oldest resident,
Sue Ellen, I think Sue Ellen is 56. And Sue Ellen was originally a sidekick in a circus when she was
little. And then when she got too big, she was dumped at LEMSIP and spent 15 years in biomedical
research and was infected with the HIV virus. It turns out chimps don't get AIDS or don't develop
AIDS. So that just goes to show that they're not good models for that. And often, you know,
the industry claims that we need these models, but often they're not, you know, we get erroneous
findings. So anyway, then Sue Ellen came to fauna as part of the older group of chimps. She's...
about six years ago, she lost the use of her legs. And we never figured out what caused it.
But it took her years, you know, she could use her arms to move around. And we sort of tricked out
her enclosure with straps and bars and so that she could have some mobility. And, you know,
many places would have euthanized her, but not at fauna. And she has regained her ability to walk.
And, you know, she's always keeping watch. She likes to watch all the guys that work at fauna.
She's particularly fond of men. So that's Sue. She often will wear a little kind of a tutu or
something like that, which on one hand, it's, you know, I mean, it makes for a great picture.
But on the other hand, it reminds us of, it probably is some kind of a throwback in her
mind from when she was in the circus. Another one of our residents, Rachel, Rachel was raised
in a human home for the first three years of her life, like a pet. And then she was dumped at
and then she was dumped at LEMCIP. And then Rachel came to fauna along with the other LEMCIP
chimps in 1997. Rachel has a diagnosis of PTSD. And she still, she still, you know,
is still suffers with that. And it's not as bad as it was in the beginning when she first arrived,
but she still has that. So, you know, even when we bring
chimps to sanctuary, there's still this, you know, sort of train wreck that they're,
that they're carrying around different individuals of different levels of regret.
Sue Ellen is not like that at all. She's a super strong personality, but Rachel really, really
suffers. But she's very into her, she loves her caregivers. And she carries around these little
stuffed gorillas, which Binky has recently, Binky is another one of the chimps from fauna. He's
recently been taking her little stuffed gorillas, you know, kind of like a brother and sister sort
of a thing there. So those, those are some of the residents there. Yeah. And then we have Tatu and
Lulis who sign language. Tatu was raised like a human child, as I said. And again, that research
never to be repeated in no way ethical. But, you know, the chimps are stamped with this and
sort of this indelible mark that they can talk with their hands now. And then Lulis,
he learned his sign language from other chimpanzees. So, so that's, that's, that's those two.
That's amazing. He learned that just from being in contact with some chimpanzees who had
that knowledge. So there was like a schooling, like education, basically.
Yeah. I would say it's more like the way that we learn, learn our first language. You know, I,
you can in school, actually, that's like the worst way to learn a language,
unless you're in an immersive classroom. But the way that you learn and acquire languages is really
being immersed in that environment. And so Lulis was, his mother was Washo. So the first Washo
adopted Lulis. And then in that research, no humans were allowed to sign around Lulis. So
his only input was from Washo and other signing chimps. And he began to sign in a week.
You know, it's like super amazing. But it, it, it turns out that when we look at what is going on
in the wild, of course, we didn't know on this level back in the seventies when this research
was going. But now we know that chimps in the wild use gestures, they use gestures that are specific
to their community. So, you know, they're, it's, they're, they're acquiring the sort of vocabulary,
if you will, of that, that community, so they can, we're seeing, you know, differences amongst them.
These, again, the gestures are learned. That's what little chimps do. They
acquire the gestures of the humans around them, just like little humans do that as well. So,
yeah, so it's, it's that experiment is happening in the wild every day, so to speak.
That's amazing. That's truly amazing. My last question for you, Dr.
is, why is it so important to be compassionate? And how can listeners make a difference? I thought,
I told them, you know, you can visit for our foundation.org. I think there, they can learn
more about the residents on the website, there's even a program called Adopt a Chimp, which is
amazing. But, you know, if we take a few step backs, and we talk about what is at the heart
of this conversation, you know, compassion, why is it so important to include animals in our
circle of compassion? Yeah, I let that question, you know, open like that. So, answer that question,
you know, open like that. So, answer the way you want. Yeah, well, and so I, I would take it a
little bit further. And I think if we view, you know, everything on the planet with sort of that
awe and wonder that comes with compassion, I, I, well, imagine how we would treat our fellow humans,
if we were able to extend our circle of compassion. And, and, you know, it, it's, it's just, I guess
it's the, the characteristics that, that come with having a wider circle of compassion are ones that
are, ones that everybody could use. I have a kid, a teenage kid who spends a lot of time watching
these Karen videos, and it's like, it's so toxic, but this is true. This is the way people are.
And sort of the opposite of that is being compassionate and being humble and asking
what it is that other individuals bring to the table and realizing that, you know, everybody,
whether you're human or, or you're a chimp or whether you're a monkey or whether you're an oak
tree, everybody's just trying to get through the day. And that, you know, just realizing that
that's what we have in common. I think it makes people kinder, doesn't it? I wholeheartedly agree.
And I would add, it makes life so much more pleasant, you know, it's just, you know,
pleasant to be compassionate to others, including animals to be generous with your compassion.
And it just makes your life more peaceful, more, more happy life. Yeah. And I just want to interrupt
you because you said something that struck a chord when you said generous. And I agree with you
because we won't run out. It's not like I'll only have so much compassion in my bucket.
Yes, exactly. Why not? I mean, it's not, we're not spending money here.
Yes, I'm happy that we agree on that. Would you like to add something before we end this conversation?
Yeah, well, I think, you know, what can people do? I, you know, I'm always urging people to pay
attention to what is going on in the biomedical industry and what, you know, there's labs all
over the place. You wouldn't know it, but they're all over the place. They keep pretty on the low
down. And yeah, read, educate yourself. I think the more that we know, the easier it is to have
compassion. The more you understand what's going on in our world and educating ourselves.
Amazing. Again, thank you so much, Mary Lee for taking the time to answer my question.
Well, thanks for featuring Fana and thanks for doing this podcast because this is people
listening is one other way that we can change ourselves and hopefully change everybody.
Of course, it's my pleasure. Thank you everyone for listening. What an honor to have met Dr.
Jens Vold. Go support the Fana Foundation. I left a link to their website in the description below.
Share this episode with family and friends and spread the word about experiments on primates.
I'm very excited for next week's episode. You are going to hear me talk with Colin,
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