What's going on, Pursuers? Welcome to The Pursuit
of Calling, the podcast that provides you with
the strategies and tools needed to successfully
discover and pursue your calling. Whether it's
through inspiring stories, thought -provoking
interviews, or quick, insightful episodes on
personal growth and development, we've got you
covered. I'm your host, Thomas Carney. Enjoy
the episode. Hey, John. Thank you for joining
me on the Pursuit of Calling podcast. You're
welcome. I'm grateful to be here. For those who
don't know who John is, John Doolin, right? John
has studied John Maxwell's leadership principles
for years and now carries that forward into his
own work. He launched an online training platform
in May at getdoolin .com. offering both free
and advanced levels of microlearning designed
to build leadership skills. He even hired some
programmers to custom build this platform so
that it's similar to the spirit of LinkedIn Learning,
if you ever saw that platform. He runs a six
-figure coaching business and has grown a strong
following with 60 ,000 -plus followers on LinkedIn,
reaching over 5 million people. John is also
a podcaster and a connector. He has three podcasts,
the Leadership Roundtable, Casual Conversations,
and then the more niche podcast, The Real Final
Mile of Big and Bulky Home Delivery. Faith is
an important part of his journey. He describes
his initial Maxwell experience as feeling a bit
like a cult, but he leaned into it and grew from
it. And he's passionate about leadership, calling,
and creating meaningful conversations that equip
and inspire others. So, John, does that all sound
accurate? Yeah, very accurate. And I do feel
the urgency to expand a bit about the cult comment.
And, you know, it's a unique environment. I will
tell you that from the moment I entered. the
the Maxwell universe it literally was like I
had just come home to my family everybody it
wasn't hi this is who I am and that awkwardness
of getting to know each other it was like a warm
embrace so I when I use the word cult I mean
it in the most positive way although it's not
always so thank you Yeah, for sure, for sure.
No, I appreciate you expanding on it. I just
thought it was a kind of funny comic. I've used
that comment before about some of the good things
in my life, so I wanted to throw it in there.
But yeah, for those who don't know who you are,
which will be most of my listeners, who is John
Doolin? Yeah, so the... How I would describe
myself is the first and foremost is I'm a husband
to an amazing wife. I'm a father to two amazing
daughters. And what I hope to establish as my
reputation is I'm a ripple. And what I would
like for your listeners to be able to envision
is if you're driving, don't do this. But if you're
not driving, close your eyes for a minute and
imagine. dropping a rock into a body of water
and watching the ripples. At some point, those
ripples go outside of your sight control. You
don't really have any idea where those ripples
will land or the impact those ripples will make
on people. And that's what I hope to do. I hope
to create enough ripples. The value I'm adding
to others goes beyond my line of sight. Hmm.
Hmm. I'm already ready to dive into a question
that I wasn't planning on asking you, but have
you experienced with the ripples that you've
maybe been to the past, have you seen the fruit
of those in the present? Or have you seen the
fruit? Yeah, so here's how I think I've interpreted
the question. So for me, the ripples are, people
will challenge me and say, gosh, why are you
so active on social media? It must take so much
of your time. Why do you publish a daily blog?
And I'll tell you that that's where I've seen
the fruit of my ripples. I will hear from people
who say, they'll send me a private note in either
an email or on social media to say, I can't.
follow you i can't like your content because
my boss watches you and if if if i follow you
you say things that make my boss uncomfortable
and when i challenge that you know what it turns
out is they're a weak leader They're leading
through fear. They're leading through intimidation.
And their people follow me because they want
a better life. They want a better work -life
balance. They want a better job. And so I'll
get these notes from people who say, I needed
to read what you wrote today. Or I needed to
hear that message today. Because I'm dealing
with this challenge. And what you wrote is helping
me process that challenge. For me, that is the
fruit of that ripple. It is the fact that, you
know, just to give you an example, Thomas, if
you follow me and you like something that I wrote
and somebody who follows you sees that and they
discover my work, to me, that's a fruit of my
ripple because, you know, we have this digital
footprint that we don't pay attention to. If
you go out to LinkedIn or Facebook or whatever
social media platform you're on and you are following
somebody, in most cases due to the algorithm,
that person you follow, you're seeing what they're
liking. You're seeing what they're engaging with.
And to me, that's the digital footprint that
we don't realize is we could be adding value
to someone that we have no idea they exist simply
because. I follow Thomas or Thomas follows John.
So to me, those are the fruits of my ripples.
That's no, that's an amazing point. Like there's
that's one thing with social media that I, I
honestly don't always think of that. You don't
know who you're impacting whenever you make,
whenever you make a post, no matter what you're
posting. So whenever you're putting it, wherever
I think about what I. Went on a stint for about
a month, posting, telling, like, I have merch
on the back of it, like, wearing a hoodie that
says you were made for more. And the concept
around that, my listeners know, that it's just
saying, like, you were created for more than
the everyday mundane, more than the challenges,
more than your circumstances. And I was making
content every day, just a short reel every day,
saying that and explaining what that means to
people. And I don't know what fruit came out
of that. I don't know what seeds were planted
as a result. But I know there were seeds planted.
So even if I never see the fruit, like you said,
even if I never see those ripples that are outside
even of my peripheral vision, I can at least
keep the planning that I can at least... Keep
planting the seeds so that more fruit will come
out of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and
even if you take it even a step back, Thomas,
it doesn't even have to be about content you're
posting. If you see something online that you're
like, wow, that's good. That's got me thinking.
Give it a like. Give it a share. You know, if
you if you think about somebody's employment
situation, like a relationship, sometimes people
are in bad relationships and they they just need
a lifeline. Sometimes people are in a bad employment
situation. They need a lifeline. And what I tell
people all the time is if I write something that
resonates with you or maybe you just you think,
wow, that that's a really good point that someone
else might need to hear. Like it, share it, comment
on it, because. Somebody who follows Thomas may
not be able to follow me because they're afraid.
Because I'm that guy who's out there saying,
chase down your forever job. Chase down that
thing that makes you get up in the morning and
go to work. I am the guy, the coach, who's out
there saying the things that make uncomfortable,
make bad leaders uncomfortable because I'm challenging.
And I talk to my clients all the time. I say,
We're going to go down a path where we are going
to put your employees in a position where they're
going to brag about you. When they do that, other
employers are going to come after them. You have
to get better at doing your job so that your
people never want to leave. And there are too
many bosses out there who don't want to do that.
There are too many bosses out there, and they
say this to me. No, we're not going to do anything
on social media because I don't want someone
to poach my people. I say, well, why don't you
just be better to your people? Well, I just can't
do that. I can't afford that. There's all excuses
of why they can't be a better human. Yeah, yeah.
The reason I laughed is because it sounds so
simple. It's like, why don't you just be better
to your people? Why don't you just – because
even like – Like, we're both Christians, right?
We believe that Jesus was a servant leader. I
mean, if he turned the, like John teaches it,
like he turned the pyramid on his head and put
himself in the position of serving those that
he wanted to be an example to. And so it's really
like, even speaking to the people that like,
aren't Christians. The type of leader that you
want even to be under is the one that is willing
to serve. The one that is willing to serve and
not the dictator who's cracking the whip. I'm
kind of curious. I want to maybe go back a second.
With this podcast, it's called The Pursuit of
Calling. What got you into where you're at now?
What would you say your calling is that propelled
you into this coaching, into being this guy who
makes bad leaders uncomfortable? So I'll give
you as Reader's Digest version as I can. Sure.
So I spent the majority of my... corporate career
working for a guy who lives in Omaha, who has
a nickname as the Oracle of Omaha, we'll mention
him by name. And this gentleman spends in through
his companies, he spends millions of dollars
a year developing his people. And I asked one
day, I said, Hey, you know, why do you spend
so much money on training and development? And
the answer was simple was, I'd rather work with
smart people. And so what if they leave? He said,
good, let them go off and have a great life.
And then we'll train the next people that come
up because I like working with smart people.
And so I left that organization feeling like
I had hit a peak of success that I wasn't going
to be able to replicate in that organization.
So I said, I'm going to go off and do this again
somewhere else. I took a job with a smaller company.
And with the promise, fully vetted, we dated
for months before I took the role. And we discussed
the fact that here is the direction that we wanted
to go. This is what they wanted me to do for
them. And then I got there and realized that's
not what they wanted at all. They really just
wanted adult daycare. They wanted me to show
up and just be present. But I wasn't really given
the tools or the opportunity. to make the same
kind of changes I've made previously. And then
I very quickly learned that I was now stuck in
a super toxic environment. I didn't work for
leaders. I worked for bosses. I worked for people
who all they wanted was their people to bow down
and worship them. And that was just so the opposite
of my leadership style. And I just made a decision.
I said, I've got to leave this. and get to a
place where I can help other people to live better
lives. I got to help people deal with these situations.
And it was a journey to get there. It took me
a couple years. I left that organization in 2020,
at the end of 2020, September -ish of 2020. And
by the following year, March of 2021, I had started
my own company. But then it was a long march
up a hill to build it to a point where it could
sustain so that I could live out this mission.
And to answer your question, calling the mission,
I mentioned the ripple effect earlier and wanting
to make enough ripples that even I don't realize
the impact I'm making. But Mark Cole, who is
one of John's coaches, And the executive vice
president, or no, sorry, the CEO of the company,
of Maxwell, he has coined the quote, everyone
deserves to be led well. And so, you know, you
told me to be prepared to talk about books. It
makes a difference to me. So, you know, I've
got a couple of books here that have made a difference
in my life. And really my goal. at this point
is to add as much value to other people as I
can. And I want people to know that you don't
have to plug 40, 60, 80 hours a week. You can
work toward doing something. You get up in the
morning and you, you know, you're adding value
that when you go to bed at night, you know, you
made a difference. That is possible. And I think
in specifically in America. Too many people who
feel like they're chained to their job. And,
you know, there's so many reasons for it, Thomas.
And that's my goal. My goal as a coach is to
get inside their head and make them realize you're
not chained to that job. Whatever reason you
think you are, whether it's health insurance,
benefits, whatever. I tell you, Thomas, there's
no greater benefit than being my own boss. And
having unlimited PTO. I can't tell you the last
time I took a day off. And I can't tell you the
last time I needed a day off. Because I'm doing
work that absolutely fulfills me. And I said
to myself years ago, I need to build a lifestyle
that I don't need a vacation from. I'm not afraid
to come home because I love my house. I love
the people in my house. I love the atmosphere
that I'm in. I don't have to go on a tropical
vacation to recharge. We go on adventures. So
when we go somewhere, we go somewhere that we
haven't been before and we explore that new place.
Yeah, so sorry. I don't know if I answered your
question, but I like telling stories. No, you're
good. I think the way you answered the question,
the reason I – one, I like having different people
on because you're going to answer the question
in different ways. And you answered it – like
you said, you answered it with that story. You
said you didn't want to work – you were working
for a leader. Well, no, you were working for
a boss and not a leader. And then you wanted
to be in an environment that – I guess that started
in March 2021. right when you wanted when you
decided like i'm actually i'm gonna go out and
create that environment so that there's and then
i'm going to be the person that creates a ripple
effect so more people can work for leaders instead
of bosses so like not just not just creating
so like you didn't just go to a different job
and look for a different leader you decide i'm
going to create i'm going to start i'm going
to learn how to and then create the leaders i'm
gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna help cultivate the
cultivate growth mindset in these people that
are responsible for the livelihoods of others.
And I love what you said. You said you can't
remember the last time you needed a day off.
And I think that's not something most people
think about. I think a lot of people think that
that's just reality. That like vacations are
the necessary thing that you need to recharge
so you can go back to your job and go through
that cycle over and over again until you retire.
And I like what John says. I just listened to
one of his podcasts the other day and – or no,
I was listening to the 15 Invaluable Laws of
Growth. That's what I was doing. And he said
– people ask him when he's going to retire and
he is, he was, I'm not going to retire. He goes,
well, I can't, we can't retire from a calling.
And so that's, so I'm like, that's, that's the
life I think I want to lead. I want to, I want
to lead a life where I'm truly living in my calling.
So I'm like, I don't want, don't want to take
a vacation day. I don't want to retire. Like
that, that's the. That's the goal, but I also
think that's something that more people – if
we can create the ripple effects and keep creating
more ripple effects, more and more people will
have that – will start having that mindset. Yeah,
I agree. I met a guy one time who worked for
a very massive corporation and a global organization,
and the exact day he was going to retire. And
I said, oh, that's interesting. And the more
I dug into it, I realized – and it wasn't like
he knew the exact day because it was three weeks
away. He was so miserable in his career that
he's planned financially that he knows exactly
– if nothing changes financially for him, he
knows exactly the day he can afford to retire.
And I just thought to myself, like, what a miserable
existence that's got to be to date in the future.
That's all you're looking forward to. Yeah. You
know, and so I build several of my programs on
that mindset to say exactly what John says is
I have no plan to ever retire. Yeah. I absolutely
plan to die doing what I'm doing. Hmm. That's
amazing. You mentioned your program. Can you
dive a little bit deeper into that? Yeah. The
first thing I'll say is the program is customizable
by the person, but it's all based around the
book that I wrote, Leadership Basics. I want
to tell a little bit of a story about how this
book came to exist because I spent a few years
writing a different book that talked a lot more
about my experiences in leadership. If you've
never been in a toxic work environment, you don't
understand what it's like to be stuck in a toxic
work environment or find yourself in one where
you literally cringe about going to work, where
you wake up in the morning looking for reasons
to not go to work. In my case, as a leader, I
woke up in the morning and said, how do I protect
my people from these toxic people? So I get out
and I'm doing talks. I'm in front of organizations
now talking to them about their leadership. And
I mentioned, and I'll be honest, I don't remember
whose name I dropped first. But I got deer in
the headlights when I dropped Stephen Covey,
Dale Carnegie, John Maxwell. The list goes on
of all the great leadership gurus of our time.
Here's the funny thing, Thomas. There was a gentleman
in the room who was a Christian, and he knew
who John Maxwell was because his church recently
went through a training on communication, this
book specifically. They went through a mastermind.
And so I sat there thinking to myself, wow. They
don't know who Dale Carnegie is, Stephen Covey.
These are world famous people on leadership.
So I literally, no joke, went home that day and
I started writing this book. And this book is
super academic. It goes through all the basics
of leadership, rules, theories, ideas, everybody
who's ever had anything to do with leadership,
the disc assessments, all that. It's all here.
So then what I do is I walk people through different,
every chapter is written so that you can just
flip to the chapter and read it. You don't have
to read the whole book. So when I sit down with
people and I do the initial assessment to find
out where are they at in their leadership journey,
what do they know? What do they not know? For
some people, we go through the whole thing start
to finish because they have no leadership knowledge
whatsoever. Other people who have been exposed
to different leadership styles will just pick
and choose which chapters we go over. And so,
you know, it's the for me, what I do is I have
to understand who I'm dealing with and where
they are in their journey. And then we put a
plan together that's specific to them. And my
goal through all of this isn't I don't want to
take a client on. And have that client for 20
years. I want to have that client for as long
as I need them so that I can make a disciple.
And what I want is I want to teach them leadership
from such a passionate perspective that they
then take it and they start teaching it. Because
everyone deserves to be led well. Yeah. Wow.
Yeah, I like. I like that. My, like what you
said just there, like, I don't want the client
to have to have to stick around for so like for
20 years, I want them to learn it and to learn
it and learn it, like have it ingrained in themselves.
So then they can go take, they can take it forward
and teach others. I think that's, that's fantastic.
There's, I think it would be, I think it, I've
had them, I've thought about it before. It's
like, man, it would be easy. as a coach to be
like, man, I get discouraged whenever somebody's
like, man, I actually don't think I, uh, I think
I'm doing really well. I think I, I don't think
I know if I, um, I think what I think, like,
you know, like I've had people like, Hey, I think
I'm doing well with my, I think I'm doing well.
I actually don't think I need the coaching anymore.
You taught me all, you taught me so much. And
like the part of me, like once I get discouraged,
like, man, that's what the client's going away.
The other part is excited. Cause like, Oh, They
feel like they've grown so much that they now
can take it forward and keep moving. I'm like,
oh, well, that's actually a good thing. Yeah,
it is a good thing. And hopefully, if you've
done it well, they're talking so well about you
that that one client could grow into five clients.
Yeah. Oh yeah, I wrote in my notes. For those
who are just listening to the audio, when he
held up a book about communication, it's The
16 Laws of Communication by John Maxwell. Good
point, Thomas. I should be better at that because
I listened to your podcast on just the audio
version. I didn't watch the video of it. So the
three books I held up are John Maxwell's The
360 Leader, The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership,
The 16 Undeniable Laws of Communication, and
then my own book, Leadership Basics. Fantastic.
And we're going to have links to all these that
he's referencing in the show notes below. So
whether you're on YouTube, you can look at the
description. And if you're in whatever major
podcasting platform you're on, don't be in the
show notes. Now, John, we also mentioned your
podcast. We mentioned you have three. How do
those feed into your – into this purpose, into
this calling? So I'll start at the – so the casual
conversations is generally just like this. It's
one -on -one, and I try to limit that to somebody
who's doing something to make the world a better
place. I've made a couple exceptions along the
way to help promote the mission of somebody if
they're trying to grow their brand or they're
trying to just get a message out. But generally,
it's authors, it's other podcasters, it's faith
-based folks, anybody who's out there trying
to make the world a better place. Leadership
Roundtable, that is generally four to eight people.
And we pick a topic and we come in and we tear
it apart. And the goal of that is anybody who's
going to listen to it is going to walk away with
something tangible where they can use that to
do better. And then the one you talked about
earlier, the niche podcast. So the industry that
I left a couple of years ago, it was. final mile
home delivery. And basically, if you think about
this, if you go and buy a couch, a refrigerator,
a washer, a dryer, most people don't throw that
in the back of the car and bring it home with
them. Most people have it in their house. Here
in the United States, what a lot of people don't
realize is unless you're buying that from a very,
very small store, a local entity, if you go to
Lowe's, Best Buy, Home Depot, Crate & Barrel,
frustration, hardware, any of the big, big places
that's being delivered by a contractor. So that's
being delivered by somebody who owns their own
business. They own the truck and the guys that
are with them are their employees or their subcontractors.
So there's the way I look, the way I try to explain
this is if you've got a clogged pipe in your
house, you call a plumber and you expect that
plumber to come in with the expertise to fix
that. plumbing problem so that you don't have
that problem again and you expect them to have
licenses you expect them to to know what to do
and be certified have insurance maybe if you
have an electrical problem you do the same you
call an electrician and you expect that electrician
to show up and be able to fix the problem and
they're licensed they're insured they're trained
but what people kind of ignore is you'll buy
a bed and Two guys will come in your house with
that bed. They'll put that bed together. And
when you jump in that bed for the first time
to go to sleep at night, what do you expect?
You expect the bed to hold your body weight,
to withstand the force of you getting in the
bed, and you don't expect to wake up at 2 o 'clock
in the morning with the headboard and footboard
collapsing on you because they didn't know what
they were doing. As a parent listening to this,
I'll tell you as a parent, I put the cribs together
myself. Because I'd spent at that time 20 years
in the industry and I'd seen enough cribs. No
way I'm going to do that. But when you buy this
type of furniture, you expect it to be delivered
by professionals who know what they're doing.
Well, Thomas, there is no training platform for
that. There is now because I built it. But prior,
there was no training platform. So these folks
coming in your home knew what they were doing.
All they had to do is show up. And so this this
other podcast that I do, I bring in people from
the industry. I bring in business owners and
I call it the real final mile life and big and
bulky home delivery. Because what I want for
people to do is I want the listener was the guy
on the truck to hear this. And number one, be
entertained. So we tell funny stories about crazy
things that have happened. I want them to be
taught this free podcast where they can hear
it and they can walk away with something that
makes them better in their job. That's probably
a longer explanation of that podcast than you
were expecting. No, you're good. I actually –
I mean personally I found it kind of interesting
because we only dove so deep into it during the
pre -interview. So the getting – can I even hear?
What you're saying later, at the end of your
explanation there, how that feeds into the rest
of what we were talking about before. You want
to make sure that the people leading in this
industry are going to be able to train the people
well, right? Yes. So I think that backstory was
necessary in order to get to the end point and
be like, well... I wanted to be able to teach
them, the leaders of this industry, how to deliver
and serve their clients well so that, like you
said, a crib doesn't collapse. Right? Yeah. Yep.
Awesome. Well, John, I really enjoyed this episode.
I always have the last two final questions before
we wrap up. And I know you already mentioned
the resources before, but could you hold those
up again real quick? Yeah, absolutely. So first,
I'll do the self -plug of my own book, Leadership
Basics. But then I'd also like to plug, of course,
the Maxwell Organization. These are three books
that I think they should be the basics that anybody
in leadership. has to read i always tell people
start off with the 21 year feudal laws leadership
it's the great entry point um and then from there
360 leader this is a great book about how to
lead effectively at all levels up down side to
side then how to be a better communicator uh
because that is in my opinion being a good communicator
is the missing link in business today Fantastic.
Thank you for that. And again, everyone, you're
going to have the links for those in the show
notes. And the final question I have for you,
John, is who do you know that I should know?
Who would be a good, maybe good somebody for
me to get in contact with, somebody that would
be good for the podcast? What would you say?
Yeah. So there's a gentleman that I met. At the
Maxwell event that we attended in August. His
name, I don't want to say his full name on the
podcast because I don't have his permission.
His name is also John. He lives in Wisconsin.
He's in the process of building his business.
And I think that he is definitely someone who
has life experiences. He's also an Army veteran
like myself. And I think that he's somebody.
I'll give you his contact information later.
But in my opinion, he's definitely somebody that
you should know and that you should have a conversation
with. A super, super dynamic person. Awesome.
Fantastic. Thank you. And yeah, we'll chat right
after the recording is over. And for people who
want to reach out to you, want to get to know
a little bit more about who you are, where can
they find you at? So my catchphrase is I'm not
hard to find. So if you go to my website, it's
getduelin .com. It's G -E -T -D -O -O -L -E -N
.com. You can actually, from my website, you
have direct access to my calendar if you want
to book time with me. And then, Thomas, one of
the things that we had talked about before hitting
record, but I want to make sure your audience
knows is if they're interested in participating
in a free leadership workshop, they can get time
with me to schedule that. Obviously, the best
use of that workshop is with their team. Bring
their team in. Let's diagnose and let's work
through some challenges that they're having or
just get them set up for whatever's coming in
the future. Um, of course, as I mentioned, everything
I do is custom built to who I'm working with.
So yeah, uh, I just, you know, you can book me
through my calendar, which is on my website.
Awesome. Fantastic. And again, we will link all
this in the show notes. So you guys, if you guys
want to sign up for any of the things that you
mentioned, you'll be able to do that directly.
So, and I'll also link his LinkedIn in there
for you guys too. Yeah. Yeah, and I do publish
a daily blog focused on leadership development
and being a better human. My tagline for that
is be better today than you were yesterday. Fantastic.
I love that tagline. That's kind of a mantra
I try to have. Be better today. Down the back
there. Nice. But awesome. Everyone, thank you
for listening to this episode of the Pursuit
of Calling podcast. If you enjoyed this episode,
you know what to do. Share it out on all the
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next time.