1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,480 What's going on, pursuers? Welcome to the Pursuit of Calling podcast, where my goal 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:14,000 and purpose is to provide you with the tools needed to successfully discover and pursue 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:20,040 your God-given calling. I'm your host, Thomas Carney. And today, we're learning about leadership 4 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:31,840 and the importance of knowing your core values with Jesse McCullough. 5 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,400 All right, guys, welcome to this episode of the Pursuit of Calling podcast. I'm sitting 6 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:42,280 here with Jesse McCullough. We met through, oh, actually, I probably already said this 7 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:48,240 in the intro, but I'm going to say it again. We met through the John Maxwell certification 8 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:55,160 program team, whatever you want to call it. And I just posted in the Facebook group about 9 00:00:55,160 --> 00:01:00,280 like, hey, I want to connect with people in the round of the Pittsburgh area. And he commented, 10 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,720 we talked on the phone for a little bit, a few weeks, about a month ago at this point. 11 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:12,720 And then we were able to set this up to have an actual interview. And it's great. I know 12 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:18,760 he's been on other podcasts before. So I am excited to get to know a little bit more about 13 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,920 Jesse, get to, and probably learn a little bit about leadership also. So, hey, Jesse, 14 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:24,920 how's it going? 15 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,280 It's going well, Thomas. Thank you so much for having me here on your podcast. I look 16 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,520 forward to our conversation this evening. 17 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:38,360 For sure. For sure. I, yeah, I think I already said it before. And I, this recording is supposed 18 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:45,120 to happen last week, but you were sick and then I got sick and I was down for the count. 19 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,520 So I'm happy we're doing it now. 20 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:55,120 I am too. Cause my voice was completely wiped out the first part of the week. And I thought 21 00:01:55,120 --> 00:02:00,640 it'll probably be good by Friday, but it was probably a little questionable. So I'm glad. 22 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,520 I think a little bit of time probably did us both some good here. 23 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:11,840 Oh, for sure. I am in a lot better mood too. But the, but for those of you, and also probably 24 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,000 for myself a little bit too, I listened to a couple of the episodes that you sent me, 25 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:21,520 but there's, but for those of us who don't know you that well, who is Jesse McCullough? 26 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:29,080 Well, Thomas, I, I'm a farm kid from Northwest Pennsylvania. I live near Meadville, Pennsylvania, 27 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,640 and that probably doesn't mean a whole lot to so many of your listeners, but I live about 28 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:39,880 two thirds of the way from Pittsburgh to Erie. If you look at the map, it's pretty much the 29 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:45,280 middle of nowhere. My hometown is about 1100 people. We have one stoplight. There's more 30 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:53,840 livestock than people is probably a reasonable thing to say about where, where I live. And 31 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:59,960 I grew up in a family where they were all educators. And so it should come with no surprise 32 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:06,600 as I decided to go into pharmacy. I became a pharmacist and actually went to school at 33 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:12,280 the university of Pittsburgh. So just down the road from you and worked all over Northwest 34 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:20,100 Pennsylvania and then moved into a number of different roles within the corporate office 35 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:27,960 of a larger pharmacy group and had so many different experiences. And, you know, the 36 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,720 experiences that I would not have expected a farm kid to have by any means. And, you 37 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:38,000 know, that's, that's how my journey started. And I know we have a lot more that we're going 38 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:43,180 to talk about here, but, you know, it took going through at least that part of the journey 39 00:03:43,180 --> 00:03:49,560 to get the experience and the perspective that opened up this next phase of my life, 40 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,160 at least, which is where you and I have now crossed paths. 41 00:03:53,160 --> 00:04:00,800 Yeah. Wow. And I think this, like you said, this area of our lives that we both have crossed 42 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:07,800 paths, this has been, like, I've only been a part of the Maxwell leadership certification 43 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:14,680 program stuff for, for a short time. And the amount of things that I've learned and the 44 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:20,240 people that I've got to meet just through connection through the Facebook group, through 45 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:26,580 like some of the calls that they host and just you and the connection that you helped 46 00:04:26,580 --> 00:04:36,880 me get before I left for Uganda. Honestly, it's like, it's crazy how, like the, how I 47 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,360 felt immediately that like, wow, the price that I paid was like, was immediately, it 48 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,760 was like, just felt like it was like, okay, this is definitely going to be worth it pretty 49 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:54,040 quick. But the, the value that it brings is amazing. If you have something, sorry. 50 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:59,600 It's just a completely different culture. Yeah. It's a culture unlike anything that 51 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:08,360 I have experienced before. I really had no idea what I was getting into. You know, I 52 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,400 thought it was one thing and it was, it was a few steps beyond what, what, what it turned 53 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:17,880 out to be. I thought it was going to be, you know, I sort of had my own ideas of what it 54 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:23,920 would be. And it just, it's turned out to be so much more. And just the caliber of people 55 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:33,280 that you meet, people like yourself, it's, I, it just, it just boggles my mind, right? 56 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:39,480 To, to, to be able to see this and, and just, you make friends from all over the world. 57 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:45,560 When I joined, I think they were saying that there were maybe 18,000 members of the team 58 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:51,360 at that point. And I, I don't know what the current number is. Last I knew, it was well 59 00:05:51,360 --> 00:06:04,040 over 40, maybe 45,000 people were members of the team. I joined back in, in 2017. And, 60 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:09,760 and I think we'll talk more about that here as, as, as our conversation goes on. But you 61 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:15,680 know, it was just, there were so many eye-opening experiences going through that, that made 62 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:21,000 a positive impact on me, that I could turn around and take that and make a positive impact 63 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,000 on others. 64 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:27,880 Can you go into like, what was an example of one of those impacts? 65 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:33,100 Yeah, well, you know, one, it was, like I said, it was a different culture. You, you, 66 00:06:33,100 --> 00:06:39,640 you went in there and there were a bunch of people, everybody loved you unconditionally 67 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:48,040 and only wanted the absolute best for you. And that was so apparent. It was so apparent. 68 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,320 And I mean, I've, I've, you know, I'm, like I said, I'm a pharmacist. I can't even begin 69 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:56,160 to put the number of pharmacy conferences I've, I've attended and you know, you'll be 70 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:02,520 there and you'll see people who you at least perceive to be your competitors across the 71 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:07,120 aisle. You know, they're kind of like the enemy or whatever. You know, there's, there's, 72 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:13,960 there's some level of distrust that you have towards some people. You know, and it was, 73 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,800 it was completely different than anything I had felt in school. It was actually completely 74 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:23,520 different than anything I ever felt in my church. It was, it was just something different. 75 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:31,240 And you know, one of the people that I introduced you to, a friend of mine, John, we were put 76 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:38,400 at the same table and it was interesting that John was originally from Kenya. He says he's 77 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:44,480 living near Philadelphia. And when you travel, you know, several hundred miles to get to 78 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,060 this conference and you find somebody who lives, you know, a couple hundred miles away 79 00:07:49,060 --> 00:07:55,640 from you, you know, you're, you're essentially neighbors. Pennsylvania there. And it's like, 80 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,840 oh, you know, we're, we're, we're, we have a lot in common. We're, we're already halfway 81 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:05,680 to being best friends. And you know, he has become a lifelong friend to me since, since 82 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:12,360 that day. And so, yeah, it was just, it was just such a special place. And then, you know, 83 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,920 just the, the environment and how we learned together and how we encourage one another, 84 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:21,280 it was, it's, it's just been, it's been a really special group to be a part of. 85 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:30,280 Yeah. The, I think that like, whatever you said, like there, you're surrounded by people 86 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:38,060 that that love you and that, that, that want to see you succeed was prevalent to me whenever 87 00:08:38,060 --> 00:08:44,840 I was on one of the, I was on one, like one of the intro calls for whatever you join. 88 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:52,160 And I don't remember his name right now, but he, he asked me for, I joined the call late. 89 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:57,640 And so eventually he asked me, he saw me, he was like, he saw me come in and he, I thought 90 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,320 it was just going to be a call where I said, sit in and listen. And that was it. You know, 91 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,280 he called, he called on me and he called out and I was like, Hey Thomas, who, how's it 92 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:08,320 going? What's your story? And I was like, Oh, I thought I was just sitting here. I said, 93 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:15,320 I didn't expect to talk. And so I told him about, about my life, about my, my struggles 94 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:24,760 with muscular dystonia and we're back and the, and I talked to him and then I talked 95 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:30,320 about my podcast and I said it really quick. I kind of like, I, sometimes I, I, I said 96 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,880 it so fast and I get, I get like a certain insecurity telling people about my podcast 97 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:40,360 because some people are just like, wow, they're on another podcast. And so I get like, I said 98 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:45,040 it really fast. He goes, wait, what was that? And he goes, go back. What was that? Say it 99 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,280 again. And he made me, he made me talk about, I actually, so that made me feel comfortable 100 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:55,760 to talk about it more and telling the vision behind it and why I'm doing it. And that in 101 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,840 itself was like, that was the first call was on and it was eye opening to how this is the 102 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:06,840 eye opening to how the rest of this is going to be. So now I'm pumped to see what else 103 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,640 this community can bring. 104 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:14,680 And you said you're actually going to the, the conference live, which from when we're 105 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:20,200 recording this is just a couple of weeks away and I can't wait to hear your take on it. 106 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:26,520 And I've only ever been to one conference before and this will be my second. I'm, I'm 107 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,120 so excited. The first one was great and it was been like three years ago, so I'm ready 108 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:38,360 for it. But, uh, the, I think it's interesting that, well, not, it's not surprising, but 109 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:39,360 I find it interesting. 110 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,480 The two podcasts episodes you sent me were both, you sent me two episodes for those who 111 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:51,560 weren't privy to our text conversations. He sent me to, um, two episodes for me to get 112 00:10:51,560 --> 00:11:01,000 more familiar with who he is. And, um, and I felt like more of what he, um, really, um, 113 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:06,000 has a heart for and because they both had to do with leadership, like in the title, 114 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,120 that's what specifically what those podcasts were about. And I found that there was other 115 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:15,000 episodes out there that you were on on different podcasts. And, uh, but these two in particular 116 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:21,160 were strictly talking about leadership and I'm going to link to both of those, uh, in 117 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,120 the, in the show notes, other people who want to learn more that maybe that they'll learn 118 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,400 in this episode or different things that learn the other episodes. I'm going to link those 119 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:34,520 in the show notes so people can go listen to those as well. Um, and, but I wanted to 120 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:40,040 know like what it could, wait, I want you to explain from your perspective, what leadership 121 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,040 is and why it's important. 122 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:49,840 Well, I guess the definition that I use, uh, first of a leader, let's, let's, let's talk 123 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:56,240 first about who a leader is. The definition that I share with people is that a leader 124 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:03,640 is anyone who helps someone at some time get somewhere or do something. All right. I sort 125 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,840 of, I'm kind of like the way that sort of rolls off the tongue, but a leader is anyone 126 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:13,060 who helps someone at some time get somewhere or do some thing. And, and when you, when 127 00:12:13,060 --> 00:12:21,920 you think about that definition, um, it applies to all of us. We are all leaders, right? And 128 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:28,720 you know, I use a bit of a, an absurd illustration, but I would ask you, you know, is a, is a 129 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:38,300 newborn baby a leader? And based on this definition, the answer is yes. Newborn baby, especially 130 00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:46,400 to new parents, right? I don't know what your experiences are with that Thomas, but, uh, 131 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:55,640 you know, a newborn baby leads new parents to become competent parents, right? Through, 132 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,880 you know, it's, it's a pretty awkward transition, right? You know, it's, it's a bunch of crying 133 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,940 and you know, you realize that at some point the baby's crying because the baby is hungry 134 00:13:04,940 --> 00:13:12,280 or needs a fresh diaper or needs to take a nap or go to bed or has to burp or whatever, 135 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:18,120 right? You have these, you have these things and, and over time you get to realize the, 136 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:25,160 the subtleties and, and that youngster leads you to become competent. It leads you from 137 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:31,040 one place where you were and gets you to a better place than where you started, right? 138 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:37,360 So, so that is who a leader is and that applies to all of us. It doesn't matter, um, you know, 139 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,920 where we are in life, each one of us is a leader, but, um, you know, the most simple 140 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:48,160 definition of leadership that I could give you is that it is all about influence. How 141 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:54,600 do you influence someone to do at some time to do something or get somewhere, right? You 142 00:13:54,600 --> 00:14:01,840 know, that's, that's really what it comes down to. And, uh, you know, that has become 143 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:12,520 such, such an important thing, uh, to me in my life because I realized how much of that 144 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:20,800 was missing for far too long. It was missing for far too long. As, as I shared, I'm, I'm 145 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:26,000 a farm kid that became a pharmacist and I went on and I've done a number of things that, 146 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,420 you know, no farm kid probably really has a whole lot of business doing. Uh, but one 147 00:14:30,420 --> 00:14:37,320 of the things, uh, that my group and I were involved with was getting pharmacists trained 148 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:43,920 to provide immunization services. And we're recording this in February of 2025 and I'm 149 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:49,760 going to tell you 20, 20 years ago, you could not get a flu shot at very many pharmacies, 150 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:56,280 right? In, in 2005, I got the phone call, Hey Jess, can you get some pharmacists trained 151 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:01,320 to provide a flu shots? And I thought pharmacists don't do that, but you know, whatever. So 152 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:08,240 we, we fumbled our way through it and we got 13 pharmacists trained that first year, uh, 153 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:14,120 to provide immunizations in Pennsylvania. Fast forward five or six years, it was, I 154 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:23,000 think it was by 2011, uh, we had 13,000 pharmacists trained to do this. And it was, I mean, there, 155 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,840 there's some part of that, which is very mechanical in nature. Can you get people to, uh, read 156 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,680 the book and attend a class and pass a test and this, that, and the other thing. Uh, but 157 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:39,440 on the other side of it, it was, it was the reality of, can I get pharmacists to actually 158 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:45,800 provide those services to the customers that come into their pharmacy? And I would see 159 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:53,440 some pharmacies that just, they just did gangbusters. Like, man, they, they, they, they would immunize 160 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:59,160 anybody that came in. They did such a good job. And there were others where it was like, 161 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:05,120 you know, dental procedures were more pleasant than seeing, you know, uh, uh, immunization 162 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,440 services at some of these pharmacies. Um, and you know, they just, they just struggled 163 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:17,320 and I didn't know what that was. I could not figure that out. And you know, I, I, I very 164 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:25,200 much approached it from a management perspective and it was actually, uh, just over 10 years 165 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:33,520 ago, it would have been late summer, early fall of 2014 where I, and Thomas, I could 166 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:38,760 take you to the piece of sidewalk where I was, where I was listening to a podcast where 167 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:46,600 John Maxwell was on there and he said, leadership skills can be learned. And I had never considered 168 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:54,280 that before. I had never considered that before. I, I just took that each one of us had some, 169 00:16:54,280 --> 00:17:00,280 some level of leadership skill and it was, you know, not dissimilar from our shoe size 170 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:06,120 or our height, um, or our eye color or our hair color or something like that. It was 171 00:17:06,120 --> 00:17:10,200 just, this is just something that you were, you were basically equipped with and some 172 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:16,640 people got a healthy amount of it and other people just didn't get as much. And you know, 173 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,360 as I looked at it, I just, you know, I saw a bunch of people who just didn't get a whole 174 00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:24,760 lot of it and I thought, no, well, that's, that's too bad. I had never really thought 175 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:32,960 of it in those terms that leadership could be learned and that leadership would make 176 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:42,360 all the difference in the world. And that night, you know, I, I, it just, it, it sparked 177 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:49,360 something in me and I, I started, I started studying leadership and you know, it became 178 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:55,480 as, as I started to study leadership, poor leadership stood out to me everywhere. All 179 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:01,280 you had to do was turn on the TV at night and yeah, you're a politician of your choice. 180 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:08,880 I don't, I don't care who you like or who you dislike. They're on TV and you could see 181 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,880 poor leadership. And so that, that was, that was pretty obvious to me. I could see that 182 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,880 I could, I could see poor leadership in government. I could see, I could see poor leadership at 183 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:25,280 work. I could see, you know, as I learned more of what good leadership looked like, 184 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:33,840 there is not good leadership all around. And I could see that and you know, and that, that's, 185 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,480 that started, that, that, that started to agitate me a little bit. That, that started 186 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:45,200 to get me just to be a little bit uncomfortable or, you know, I could see the poor leadership 187 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:52,440 in, in the schools that my kids went to. I could, I could see the poor leadership in 188 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:58,360 my church. But where it really just punched me in the nose is when I looked in the mirror 189 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:03,920 and I saw the poor leadership that was happening in my own household and with myself. I was 190 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:15,280 like, Oh man, this is, this is something else. And you know, I started on that journey of, 191 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:22,120 you know, having to learn or unlearn, I had to unlearn a lot. And I will tell you that 192 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:28,280 I am a much improved, I am by no means a perfect leader now, but I am light years ahead of 193 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:36,200 where I was 10 years ago. And as I went through that, it hit me that, Oh my goodness, other 194 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:44,160 people need this too. Other people can go down this same road that, that I'm going down 195 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:51,740 and, and, and they can yield similar benefits to what I'm observing, right? This has the 196 00:19:51,740 --> 00:19:58,280 potential to, to change everything. And, and you know, one of the leadership guys that, 197 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,520 that I listened to, I don't remember if it was John Maxwell, it may have been Craig Groeschel 198 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,720 who said, you know, everything rises and falls on leadership. Everything gets better when 199 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:13,520 the leader gets better. And, and so I, you know, I started doing that myself and then 200 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:18,600 I started seeing how the impact it had on my team. And it was like, it was eye-opening. 201 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,040 I was like, Oh my goodness, this, this is it. This is it. So I'm going to pause there. 202 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,880 I've been talking way too long here. So I'm going to make sure I'm, I haven't gone off, 203 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,240 off track where you're wanting the conversation to go, my friend. 204 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:36,080 Oh no, you're going right in the, you're go, I asked you what leadership was and why it's 205 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:41,880 important. And I think you're answering that pretty well. You're saying everything rises 206 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:48,200 and falls in leadership that I believe that is Craig Groeschel. And the, the whole thing 207 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:54,520 like the same thing I can attest to the, you're saying, sorry, I'm going to see poor leadership 208 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:59,040 everywhere that you go, because when you start studying it and I started, I started studying 209 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:05,520 it, reading John Maxwell's books years ago and I don't remember how I actually found 210 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:15,400 out about John Maxwell. I just, I don't know, I have no clue. I don't remember. And I just, 211 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:22,480 I, the more I, the more I learned about it, the more, the more I, I personally want to 212 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:30,000 implement it in my life so that others that I, others I lead or even have the opportunity 213 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,280 to lead. Like, I think you hear a lot that leadership has, and I think that's within 214 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:41,840 your definition has nothing to do with position and everything to do with character. And so 215 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:49,800 like there's, I think honestly, the way you were explaining it to me sounds like the reason, 216 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:59,480 yeah, the reason it's important is because where there's, where there's poor leadership, 217 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:07,720 everybody is hitting a ceiling. Everybody is, nobody's getting better in that instance 218 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,720 if there's poor leadership. 219 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:16,000 Exactly. You know, it's like the Bible tells us where there is no vision that people perish. 220 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,000 Yeah. 221 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:23,040 Right? So if you have a leader that cannot see a better tomorrow, then where are you 222 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:31,960 going? Like there's, it does not, it does not inspire progress and advancement to the 223 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:39,440 things that the group can do. 224 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:48,680 So on this like journey that you've been on, you said you would listen to, you remember 225 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,680 that podcast from, you think you said 2014? 226 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,720 I believe it was 2014 and I wish I could find it again, but if you think I could find that 227 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:05,560 one, I don't know. I've looked a couple of times, I've not been able to locate that one 228 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:06,560 again. 229 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,800 No worries. I think there's, there's still a ton of content out there to get the game 230 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:18,480 wisdom from, from both John Max One, Craig O'Shell and man, I can't think of anybody 231 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:24,240 else, but there are a ton of other people. But there's one thing I want to ask you and 232 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,200 you might have already said it, but I want to dive in, like, what is one of the most 233 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:33,320 important things that you learned while pursuing this journey of personal growth and journey 234 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:34,320 of leadership? 235 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:43,800 I would say one of the most important things, especially early on, was to become clear on 236 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:56,140 my values. What, and I'll give you a preview of what you should expect next month, but 237 00:23:56,140 --> 00:24:00,480 we all have values, right? You have a, you have a set of values. I have a set of values. 238 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,200 Each one of our listeners here tonight has a set of values. And by and large, they're 239 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,160 probably somewhat similar. You know, I don't expect people with dramatically different 240 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:15,880 values from you would be listening to your podcasts for very long. But by and large, 241 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,800 you know, any group of people has values and they can be similar. They can be quite different, 242 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,600 right? You know, you're, you're outside of Pittsburgh and there, and people in Pittsburgh 243 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:32,000 have a core value of, of the Steelers, right? And not everybody has that core value, right? 244 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,240 You can go to different parts of the world where that value does not exist. There's, 245 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,520 there's actually parts of the world where the Steelers are not loved at all. As hard 246 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:48,360 as that is for any of us to be able to comprehend, right? But I was, where, you know, these dominoes 247 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:55,240 started to fall for me is I was at a conference in Washington, DC and there were about 500 248 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,160 people in the room and the keynote speaker came out and he asked a question. He said, 249 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:04,520 how many of you work for a company that has core values? And in that room with 500 people, 250 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:11,000 500 hands went high in the air. His next question was how many of you know what those values 251 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:18,840 are? And 500 hands in the room came down and I looked around and I thought, wow, isn't 252 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,400 that something? Yeah, that's wild. Isn't that something? You know, cause the fact of the 253 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:30,520 matter is we all, we all have values, but oftentimes we haven't articulated what those 254 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:36,840 values are. We would, we would say, I would say, Thomas, you know, do you have some good 255 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,040 values? Do you have some good personal values? You would say, of course, Jess, absolutely. 256 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:47,680 And I would believe you, right? And I thought I had good values. And when, whenever I went, 257 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:54,860 whenever I went to that first conference, that first Maxwell conference in Florida, 258 00:25:54,860 --> 00:25:59,300 it was early on and John came out and he started teaching. He said, I want you to know what 259 00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:05,840 our values are. And I suspect he will do something similar whenever you go down there. And he 260 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:14,320 put this on the table. He said, Hey, I want you to know these are our values. And you 261 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,600 know, once you know the values that it sort of explains the culture that we were talking 262 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:24,640 about a while ago. But he says, these are our values. He said, they do not have to be 263 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,320 yours. They do not have to be your values, but I want you to know this. If, if these 264 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:37,160 are not your values, I want to encourage you to go to the, go to the help desk, tell them 265 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,720 that you do not have the same values that we have. And what we'll do is we'll just give 266 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,600 you your money back. You go home, there's no harm. There's no foul. There's no hard 267 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,760 feelings, but I just want you to understand that we want you to be, you know, we, we want 268 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:57,280 you to, you know, this is, these are the values that we hold dear. And in a room of 2000 people, 269 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:03,440 3000 people, however many people were in there. And he starts going through the values. And 270 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,440 you know, a couple of times, as, as I will tell the story, it may not have actually been 271 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:13,200 this way. He just reminded us of these aren't your values. Do not feel obligated to stay. 272 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,640 And I would tell you Thomas, that they were not my values. They were fantastic. They were 273 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:28,240 actually better values than what I had, but they, they were not my values. And as I looked 274 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:39,120 around the room, no one was getting up. And I wasn't about to be the first, but maybe, 275 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:46,920 maybe I need to upgrade my values. And that's where that's, I, I, I think that was one of 276 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:57,840 the key things. One of those key moments for me in this, in this growth is that, you know, 277 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:06,880 I upgraded, I upgraded my values and you know, and, and, and I took, took a different perspective 278 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:17,080 on so many things. And you know, I, I, I now came back and I had so much more patience 279 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:24,840 and compassion for so many people that I didn't have before. And that didn't happen overnight. 280 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,720 And that, that took some time that I'm not going to tell you that I've never been frustrated 281 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,840 since that point, but I have to remind myself, you know what, I, I need to value people. 282 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,200 One of the values was value people and add value to people. And I didn't always do that. 283 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:44,560 I may have valued people, but I didn't add value to people. You know, that was something 284 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:50,440 that when you and I met after your Facebook post here a couple of weeks ago, I would hope 285 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,560 you would say, and I think I'm going to put words in your mouth. You can dispute it here. 286 00:28:54,560 --> 00:29:01,320 But I think you would say that I added value to you in that conversation that you left 287 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:07,640 that conversation better than what you started it. Yeah, for sure. And that was not the way 288 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,840 that I thought at all. And at one point it was what this, this is the value that I have. 289 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,640 I got to keep all this value to myself. There's no way I'm, cause if I give my value away, 290 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:23,800 I'm somehow going to be less. I'm somehow going to be not as important. I'm somehow 291 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,360 going to not have the same impact on people. People will not hold me in that same regard. 292 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:34,440 And I, I, my, my, my thinking was completely backwards that I needed to add value to people. 293 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,500 I needed to empower people. I mean, these were leadership principles that were missing 294 00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:43,900 in the organization that I was in. And perhaps that explains why the organization had some 295 00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:52,120 of the challenges that it had. You know, it's just, it's just some, something, something 296 00:29:52,120 --> 00:30:01,000 to consider. So I, I would say that that's probably one of the, one of the key changes, 297 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,920 one of those key elements that, you know, was such a, such a, an important part of, 298 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,680 of my, of my journey. And it happened very early on, you know, I'm in a room of people 299 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,520 that somehow they all love me. They've never met, they all love me. They all want the best 300 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:23,160 for me. You know, and I, I don't know that I was, I, you know, I'm a general, generally 301 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,720 I get along with people, but I'm not that warm and fuzzy. These folks were a little 302 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:33,160 warmer and a little fuzzier than what I was in that regard. And it was just, you know, 303 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:39,540 it was just an interesting, it was just an interesting experience and it has served to 304 00:30:39,540 --> 00:30:44,960 improve so many things and, and how I engage and interact with other people. 305 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:53,080 And, well, I'm going to stop for a second to say I'm, I just got this over, this like 306 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,720 feeling of gratitude over myself for just now is that I'm just, I'm just, I'm just 307 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:04,080 super grateful for this conversation right now. I don't know. I just got like, you were 308 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:09,120 talking about all the people surrounding you and I talked about the values of, of the Maxwell 309 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:15,480 Corp, Maxwell Corporation. And I, I was like, my, my, I'm thinking about my values of love 310 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:23,920 God and love others. And there's, and then there's a third one that I, my, one of my 311 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,440 good friends, Sean, would use, would say love God, love others and teach others to love 312 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:40,760 God. And the way, the way to do that is by, is through adding value to them. And there's, 313 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:47,960 and that can be just at the grocery store to the, to the cashier. There's the, like 314 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:54,520 so many instances where I can think back to where I, I'm a, I can, I can be pretty introverted 315 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,200 and I just like go, I go in, stick, I go in, I know exactly what I'm going to buy, exactly 316 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,480 have it mapped out in my head where I'm going to walk in the grocery store. And I just get 317 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:10,080 to the cashier. We, we, they scan everything in, I say, thank you. I get my car and I leave 318 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,920 and I don't say a word to them. And I'm like, they were just, they were just a means to 319 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:23,280 an end. And I had to shift my mindset around that. My, like every single person deserves, 320 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:30,480 deserves to be loved and every single person deserves to have value added to them. And 321 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:38,920 that's what, that's one big reason why I joined, joined the leadership, this leadership 322 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:49,220 company, because I, having known the values, at least to the extent I can learn it from 323 00:32:49,220 --> 00:32:55,400 books and podcasts and knowing that this was out there as an option, it took me a couple 324 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:05,160 of years to pull the trigger financially. But I, when I did, I, it, it took, it took 325 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,920 one call, like I said before, to understand that this is where I'm meant to be. And this 326 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:16,040 conversation is another indication of that because it was, it's through the, it's through 327 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:23,600 paying that large sum of money that caused me to be able to, caused me to be able to 328 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,880 have this conversation right now. So I just want, so again, I would say I'm super grateful 329 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,360 to be doing this right now. I usually don't have this much energy at 830 at night. 330 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:40,440 Well, it's, it's such a wonderful thing to connect with people that have these similar 331 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:46,560 values and perspectives and attitudes, right? So it's, it's my, my privilege and my pleasure 332 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:53,080 to be here. And you know, it's, it's worth it, right? You're, you're worth it, Thomas. 333 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,960 Each one of your listeners is worth it. And so, you know, I'm happy to, to share some 334 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,080 of my story here with them. 335 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:11,000 Wow. So one question I have left, well, actually there's two more after this, like two out, 336 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:17,080 end of the podcast questions, but I don't count those. But there's a one question I 337 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,400 usually ask first, and I guess I skipped over it by accident. But I actually kind of like 338 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:29,400 that this is the last question before we get into the outro. This podcast, as you know, 339 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:37,680 is called the pursuit of calling. And I want to, for however long talk specifically about 340 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,400 what you believe your calling is. 341 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:49,080 Wow. That's, that's an interesting question. It's a tough question. And it's a personal 342 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:56,880 question because, you know, I know so many people who have gone through life and they 343 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:02,360 do not know what type of calling that they have. And then I also know there's some young 344 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:08,760 people who believe they know their calling. And that may be, I guess I've, I've observed 345 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:15,400 that, you know, our calling can change a little bit as you go through, as you go through life. 346 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:21,040 Just for some perspective for your listeners, I think, and I need my wife to validate this, 347 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:26,000 I think I turned 50 this year. So I just want you to know where I am. And I say that because 348 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:37,960 I've lost arguments with my wife where she knows I don't. But it took me till I was about 349 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:48,280 40 to figure this out. I needed to, I needed to have certain life experiences. I need to, 350 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:55,520 I need to see my heart change and not necessarily change for the better. Right? As I went through 351 00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:04,120 my pharmacy career, I, I noticed that my heart hardened towards some people, towards some 352 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:12,000 attitudes. And I'm not going to say that that's right, but I would tell you, you know, as 353 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,320 I think I shared earlier, and when we're done, I'll, I'll pull it up on a map. I'll share 354 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:23,000 a map on the screen. I'll take you to that place where I was, where I heard leadership 355 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:31,800 skills can be learned. And that thought hasn't left me for the last decade. It hasn't. Right? 356 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,300 It's like something that I think about every day. Now, I don't know about you, but there's 357 00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:41,160 certain things that over the course of my life, I've been, I've been sort of, you know, 358 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,120 excited or hot for, right? It's like, oh, this is, this is the hot new thing. This, 359 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:50,640 I'm really excited about whatever. And a lot of times those things will burn hot and bright 360 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:57,080 for a short period of time. And then they ultimately burn out and go. This hasn't gone 361 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:05,120 anywhere. That's how, you know, I would, I would say that I believe it's my calling. 362 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,880 It's that, you know, oh, you know, I had a favorite sports team or I had a favorite TV 363 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:15,240 show and you know, you know, that everything was, you know, revolved around this for a 364 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:22,360 period of time. This is something that has just had a completely different type of, of 365 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:29,760 life too. And then I would also tell you this, when it, when it comes to a calling, especially 366 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,480 if you feel that it's God's calling on your life, and I do feel that this is God's calling 367 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:41,780 on my life, at least for this, this particular phase, you have to understand that the enemy 368 00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:54,000 will not like that. And because of that, you're going to have stuff come at you. You're going 369 00:37:54,000 --> 00:38:00,200 to face resistance. You're going to, you're going to face failure. It's, you know, having 370 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:07,000 a calling, I don't know that that's, at least my experience has been that it's not sunshine 371 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:15,600 and lollipops. It's hard. It is hard. It is, you know, there are some high points. There 372 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:24,120 are some, there are some challenging days, you know, so I'm afraid I'm getting off the 373 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:30,080 question that you asked, but you know, what, what it came to was that I realized that my 374 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:37,560 purpose in life was to help others help others. That's, that's what I became a pharmacist 375 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:47,000 and I am not especially gifted in the direct patient care aspect of it, but I do have some 376 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:54,840 gifting in helping others who do that. Right. That's, that's where, you know, helping pharmacists 377 00:38:54,840 --> 00:39:03,560 develop these new skills around immunizations or whatever were so helpful for me to see 378 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,800 that, Hey, this is, this is what you need to do. You need to go out and you need to, 379 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:14,520 you know, train others who will go help others. And then, you know, well, what's next? You've 380 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:20,420 trained everybody to give immunization. What's, what's next? And it became, it's become very 381 00:39:20,420 --> 00:39:28,720 clear to me that it's, you need to help them acquire and develop and nurture and mature 382 00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:36,700 these skills that will impact themselves, their teams, their patients in the communities 383 00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:42,520 that they serve. And you know, it, it, that didn't happen automatically. You know, I was 384 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,600 like, Oh, you know, at first it was like, Oh, you know, do some leadership training 385 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:51,120 for pharmacists. Surely that's, surely that can be a lucrative industry. And you know, 386 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,000 perhaps there was some selfishness with that in the early going. And I think because of 387 00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:00,920 that, there was a lot of struggle and failure. There's a lot of struggle and fail, right. 388 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:08,800 And then I'll, I'll give you this spoiler. You join the Maxwell team because you want 389 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:13,420 to be, you want to have access to John, but you will find that he has surrounded himself 390 00:40:13,420 --> 00:40:20,080 with so many fantastic people that are just of the same caliber, maybe even a notch or 391 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:25,840 two ahead. And like, I didn't expect that. Like I, you know, I was like, Oh, I want to 392 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,880 be able to learn from John. And then like all these other people are, you know, you 393 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,960 know, a few, few tiers below his caliber. And that is not the case. That is not the 394 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:42,440 case. And his CEO is a guy by the name of Mark Cole. And Mark said one day, he said, 395 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:51,160 everybody deserves to be led well. And I, that, you know, I, I, my radar goes up to 396 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:58,400 the everybody's and nobody's and, and, and like the extremes, right? You know, when my 397 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:06,720 kids come home, when they say everybody else has a cell phone, I really, they all do. But 398 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:13,320 when he says everybody deserves to be led well, I said, Hmm, is that true? Is that true? 399 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,920 And I actually had to look at the opposite of that. I said, well, let's make a list of 400 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:23,480 who doesn't deserve to be led well. Let's see whose name can we put on that list? Who, 401 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:28,360 who's the, who's the poor person out there that needs to have a very poor leader leading 402 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,760 them? And the more I thought about it, I could not come up with anybody's name to put on 403 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:44,840 that list. And I had to reason that, Hmm, everybody does deserve to be led well. Right? 404 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:55,080 And that was, those were just some, some pretty substantial shifts. And, you know, it's, as, 405 00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:01,780 as I talk with folks, it's, you can find some common ground. Oh yeah, it would be good. 406 00:42:01,780 --> 00:42:06,200 It would be good if people had these skills. But there's also an arrogance you have to 407 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,660 get through. You have to get through the arrogance that, you know, I don't know if you've ever 408 00:42:10,660 --> 00:42:16,440 looked at these statistics, but I believe it's AAA has done some research. Do you happen 409 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:22,080 to know anybody, Thomas, who would describe themselves as a below average driver? 410 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,080 No. 411 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:29,320 It's something like 93% of people would, you know, they all believe that they're above 412 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,160 average drivers and they'll give you whatever reason behind there. Like, Oh, I've never 413 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:39,260 had a speeding ticket. I've never blah, blah, blah. But we know that statistically speaking, 414 00:42:39,260 --> 00:42:43,260 that cannot be true. Right? We were to rank, you get everybody, line them up. Somebody's 415 00:42:43,260 --> 00:42:46,680 at the top. Somebody's at the bottom. Like that's, that's just the way that it goes. 416 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:52,360 Right? The same is true for leadership. The same is so true for leadership. It's something 417 00:42:52,360 --> 00:43:00,640 like 60% of people would rank themselves in the top 10% of leaders. And that's probably 418 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:05,680 not the exact statistic, but I share that with you just as a ballpark statistic because, 419 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,220 you know, most people say that comparatively I'm better than a lot of the other people 420 00:43:10,220 --> 00:43:15,520 that are around me. And that may be true. That doesn't mean you're a good leader. That 421 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,840 doesn't mean you don't have room to improve. So you, you, you know, my, my, my journey 422 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:28,920 took me to, uh, become humble enough to say, Hmm, even though I have all these years of 423 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,840 schooling and advanced training and this, that, the other thing, maybe there's something 424 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:40,040 else that I could learn that could make a tremendous positive impact on the people around 425 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:47,840 me. And when I had the, the, the humility and the courage to go down that road, I found 426 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:53,960 up, Oh yeah, I do. And the fact is, is that if I have room for it, probably a lot of the 427 00:43:53,960 --> 00:44:01,000 people that I know have room for it as well. And you need, you need to bring them along 428 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:07,480 as well. Also something that I was challenged to do is that, you know, I was challenged 429 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,320 that if you really want to improve your leadership skills, you need to do it in the nonprofit 430 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:22,920 space. So, you know, I serve my church, uh, in, in a couple of ways. Uh, I, um, I, I serve 431 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:31,280 on a board, uh, locally for community revitalization and perhaps the most challenging area has 432 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:37,240 been I got, um, as I was telling you before we started recording, I believe the technical 433 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:44,040 term is roped, but I, I, I'm coaching fifth and sixth grade elementary boys basketball, 434 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,200 right? And if you want to check your leadership, like how do you lead kids? Right. You know, 435 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,460 like there it's, uh, you know, it's just this volunteer position where you go out there 436 00:44:53,460 --> 00:44:57,680 and you serve them and you do your best and you find out that there's, there's challenge 437 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,640 and there's struggle and there's failure that you go through, but you know, you keep going 438 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,880 through it because you have the opportunity to keep getting better. You have the opportunity 439 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:09,980 to keep making an impact on people. And if I can get better coaching elementary boys, 440 00:45:09,980 --> 00:45:13,840 you know what, that's going to help me. That's going to help me lead a lot of other people, 441 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,560 you know, as, as we go down the road. So I've probably gone way off topic and way too long 442 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,360 on that, but I'll, I'll pause there. 443 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:27,640 No, no, you are, you are perfectly fine. Um, so I think we will, we will, uh, start the 444 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:34,480 wrap up sequence. Um, and with just some final questions, uh, I believe I sent these to you. 445 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:40,040 I'm not positive. Uh, but no, I want to pre I want to also say thank you. I love the, 446 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:48,200 uh, what you said about your calling thing. Uh, it's to help others, help others. Um, 447 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,440 I think, I think that's fantastic. I think that's, I love it whenever people actually 448 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:58,600 have that's one thing I want to help people find is if, how do you put your, how do you 449 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:06,000 put a phrase to your calling? Um, and the one thing Valley Valerie Burton says in the 450 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:13,240 training videos I'm watching, um, is she asks, um, the purpose question she asks, how do 451 00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:20,080 you want people, how do you want people to improve having crossed paths with you? And, 452 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:26,080 um, and the answer to that question is generally the person believes their purposes and they 453 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:32,520 didn't really think about it until then. Um, so I'm in the listeners right now to think 454 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:37,040 on that one. Uh, how do you want people's lives to improve when they cross paths with 455 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,000 you? And I think you're going to, you think you're going to find your, that's going to 456 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:48,200 get you on a path towards your calling. Um, but all right, Jesse, so there is, where'd 457 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,320 they go? I had a couple, well, I know there, uh, I couldn't find them on my notes, but 458 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:59,800 there's, um, two questions. One, uh, when it comes to personal growth, development, 459 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:07,400 or like in leadership, what would be two of your best resources that you would usually 460 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:15,760 recommend to people? Um, two that I would start with, um, with anything that you do, 461 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:20,440 I think it's so important to know the rules of the game, right? Um, if you don't know 462 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:25,720 the rules, um, the game's not quite as fun. You know, if you, if you're playing ice hockey, 463 00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:30,200 you don't know the rules to ice hockey. You don't know why the game unfolds the way that 464 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:36,660 it does. Right. To that, to that end, um, there's two resources that I, um, that are 465 00:47:36,660 --> 00:47:43,080 very much foundational and that's, uh, Maxwell's 15 laws of growth and 21 laws of leadership. 466 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:53,360 Um, that those have been so helpful and by learning those principles, it becomes so obvious 467 00:47:53,360 --> 00:48:00,800 when you see them violated. It becomes so obvious. Uh, like I'll hear stories and somebody 468 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,520 will be continuing their story and they'll say, well, then somebody did this and it's 469 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:11,580 like nails on the chalkboard for those of you old enough to remember what that, right? 470 00:48:11,580 --> 00:48:17,680 It's like, oh, this is not going to go well because there is a violation, uh, happening 471 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:24,400 and um, you know, and you, you see it unfold. So like those are, uh, are, are two foundational 472 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:32,920 pieces, um, that, that, that I, um, rely on, um, just for myself and that I share with 473 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:33,920 others. 474 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,680 Great. Well, thank you for those. I can attest to 21 laws of leadership. I have 15 laws 475 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:44,280 sitting on my bookshelf. I haven't not, that's one I haven't picked up yet. So I need to, 476 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,760 I keep hearing it referenced over and over again. I need a, uh, I love reading. So I 477 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,040 need to get that onto my list. 478 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:57,640 Just let me throw, throw this out. Um, what really turned me on to both of those is, uh, 479 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:04,560 I heard two separate interviews in, um, in two completely different contexts. Uh, but 480 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:08,840 in both of these interviews, they referenced this book titled the richest man in Babylon. 481 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:13,360 If you've ever heard of the richest man in Babylon or not, but it's a, it was a book 482 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:18,400 that was written, I think it was written right before the depression. Um, and it's about 483 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:23,240 personal finance, right? But it's old. It's set, it's set in ancient Babylon and it tells 484 00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:28,880 the story of this guy, um, who is in a place of struggle. And I believe it's at the end 485 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:35,680 of chapter two where, you know, he, he says, um, his buddy who he grew up with has gone 486 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,120 on to become the richest man in Babylon. And he thinks to himself, if I could just meet 487 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:43,840 my boyhood friend, maybe he could tell me how I could have wealth. By the time you get 488 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:50,320 to the end of chapter two, he's able to reunite with his, uh, with his childhood friend and 489 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,200 his friend tells him something to this effect. He said, the reason that you do not have great 490 00:49:54,200 --> 00:50:03,640 wealth is either that you do not know or you do not obey the laws that govern wealth. And 491 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:10,340 that phrase, you don't know or you don't obey has stuck with me. Um, this is sort of a foundational 492 00:50:10,340 --> 00:50:17,640 part of any teaching that I, that I do is that there's laws that govern everything around 493 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:24,560 us. Right. Right. I mean, have you ever had a day that was not 24 hours? Has the sun ever 494 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:31,160 not risen in the East and set in the West? The world operates by exact law. If you were 495 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,680 to hold your cell phone out at arm's length and let go, you have no doubt that it would 496 00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:40,120 fall to the ground. It would not fall up. Right. There's the laws that govern these 497 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,920 things. Now, the fact is, is that there's laws that govern all sorts of things that 498 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:49,600 we may not be aware of. Right. You don't know the laws that govern electricity. Well, maybe 499 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:54,160 you do. I don't know the laws that govern electricity or some of these things. To me, 500 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,860 it's sort of like magic, right? But they, it doesn't mean that there's not principles 501 00:50:57,860 --> 00:51:02,020 that you can study and learn. There's, you know, there's electrical engineers out there 502 00:51:02,020 --> 00:51:06,760 that can wire your house and, you know, so that things don't explode or burn or whatever, 503 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:11,160 however that all works. That's outside of my, my expertise. But my point was this is 504 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:17,240 that there are certain principles that you can, that you can capture, that you can learn, 505 00:51:17,240 --> 00:51:22,340 that you can, that you can internalize and that you can obey. That will make a tremendous 506 00:51:22,340 --> 00:51:31,040 difference in how things go in your life. And that's, and that's where like the 15 laws 507 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,520 of growth come in. And that's where the 21 laws come in. There's, there's a number of 508 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:40,800 other, you know, any book that comes out and it has, or it has some number of laws, like 509 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:46,600 I'm there, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just, I'm checking that out. Because that, you know, that's, 510 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,800 that's just what it is. You know, I'll, I'll give this tip to the readers or to, to your 511 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,560 listeners. Should you get these books and should you read these books? You do not read 512 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:59,460 these books the way you read other books. You read one chapter and then you sort of 513 00:51:59,460 --> 00:52:06,320 soak on that chapter for days, weeks, maybe even months to learn that principle. You don't 514 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:11,280 just blow through it. You, you, you've got to, you, you, you, one of, one of our mentors 515 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,880 now Thomas uses the expression, learn a little bit, do a little bit, learn a little bit, 516 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:21,240 do a little bit. Right. And you need to learn those principles and you need, you need to 517 00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:25,820 start exercising them. Don't just collect them all. Just, you know, learn as you go 518 00:52:25,820 --> 00:52:27,000 and pick those up. 519 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:39,200 That's good. As the way you, the way you kind of brought structure to, with, to the, to 520 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:45,080 the laws. I like you brought structure to like search it to the understanding of like 521 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,800 what they're for. That's you said things in a way that I haven't really thought of before. 522 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:58,160 So that's pretty cool. Wow. So thank you for those. I'm going to do richest man Babylon 523 00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:07,280 as a, as a Lincoln there as well. But there's a final question for the evening. Now that 524 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:14,400 you've been on the pursuit of calling, who would you recommend as a guest on the podcast? 525 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:22,020 You know, I would point you to our mutual friend, John, who came from Kenya. Okay. Yeah. 526 00:53:22,020 --> 00:53:32,240 He has such an amazing story, such an amazing story. And, you know, I met him instantly. 527 00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:38,880 We became best friends. I'm about twice as old as what he is if memory serves, but you 528 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:44,840 know, he, he tells the story of, of coming to America and I don't know that I would have 529 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:50,680 that type of courage to leave where I was and to go to some other part of the country. 530 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:56,480 You know, you, you, we were talking before you hit record about your trip to Uganda. 531 00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,920 I don't know that I have that type of courage. I don't know that that's what I was equipped 532 00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:06,760 with. I don't know that that's what my calling was for that, you know, my, you know, sort 533 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:13,840 of my work field is, is perhaps a little different. But, you know, some of these folks who have 534 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:18,800 done some of these different things, I think would be interesting. And, you know, I would 535 00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:25,520 even point you back to Dustin and Ashley, who I introduced you to, who actually served 536 00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:31,020 in Uganda for some period of time. There's, you know, I think those would be a couple 537 00:54:31,020 --> 00:54:36,740 of folks that, at least at first thought would be low hanging fruit that I think would be 538 00:54:36,740 --> 00:54:40,480 a tremendous people to add value to your listeners. 539 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:50,080 Wow. That's fantastic. Thank you. I'm going to reach out to all of them and well, yeah, 540 00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:55,840 I appreciate it. And for those who are listening, thank you for listening to this episode of 541 00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:00,800 the pursuit of calling podcast. And if you're, if you'd be so kind, if you got some value 542 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:06,040 from this episode, go ahead and share it out to on all of your social media platforms, 543 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:10,800 whether you're, whether you're on X, Instagram, Facebook, wherever you're at, Pinterest, which 544 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:16,760 is be weird, but you can share it on there too. And then if you would also be so kind, 545 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:21,720 you got to go ahead and leave a comment on Spotify, on Spotify, Apple podcasts, leave 546 00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:26,720 a review. Don't forget to leave five stars and we'll see you next time. All right, guys, 547 00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:36,720 keep pursuing.