Hey guys, how's it going?
Welcome to this episode of The Pursuit of Calling, with me, your host, Thomas Carney.
Here I sit down with Bethanie Martin.
She's one of the coolest people I have ever met.
She is a designer, but maybe not the kind of designer that you're thinking about right
now.
She designs neighborhoods and parks, and a lot of the time is around climate action and
post-natural disaster work.
We talk a lot about how she sits down with community members to really figure out what
the vision of a community post-natural disaster should be.
We get into how she got into this kind of work, and it's kind of a really interesting
story and she tells a lot of interesting stories.
So if you want to listen to this episode, buckle up, because that's fantastic.
But before we dive in, I want to ask you to send me a message.
If you have any questions or you want me to talk on a particular topic, or you just want
to say something encouraging words, you can do so on Instagram or via the email that is
listed in the show notes of this episode.
All right guys, see you in there.
All right guys, hey, how's it going?
So I am here with Bethanie Martin.
And this was, Leah recommended her during her recording.
I asked her when she could record, and this is probably the quickest.
I've had some recommendation and then a recording, and it's really cool.
So Bethanie, we talked a little bit throughout the week about what you do for work, and we
were talking a little bit before the recording, but for those who don't know you, don't really
know your background, could you give us a little short synopsis?
Sure.
Bethanie, my 32nd elevator pitch, I'm originally from the east side of Indianapolis.
I moved to Pittsburgh almost six years ago via Detroit, Michigan, so I'm a Midwest girl
at heart.
My background is in architecture and urban design and planning, so I currently work for
a firm, downtown Pittsburgh, doing neighborhood engagement and planning work, and also climate
action and resilience work with a focus on communities and how they live and do life
in the places that they currently exist.
On top of that, I, fun facts, things that are not just about my job.
I love the Lord.
I spend a lot of time talking to Jesus either in my hammock or in my double-pop son chair
in my living room.
I have a two-year-old great Pyrenees who's a complete stubborn little thing.
She's as cute as it comes.
What else?
I love the people in my life, so when Leah called and made the recommendation, I was
more than happy to sit here because I love people.
I love getting to hear about their stories also, and so I'm just really honored to be
here.
Oh, well, thank you for your yes.
Yes.
It's always great.
This is the first time I've recorded with somebody that generally didn't know beforehand.
That's even a testament to the podcast, I think.
Generally, this podcast is called Pursuit of Calling, and it helps me meet new people.
As I was thinking about it earlier in the week, it's like, maybe we would have had
a conversation at some point, but this is how it gets to happen.
This is how it gets to happen, and I couldn't be more thankful for that.
We were, I'm happy, you told me what you were doing with it.
I did for work both earlier in the week because my brain would have broke today.
For those who don't know, just to dive a little bit more into that, just because I think it's
really cool if people also probably don't know much about it, could you go a little
bit further into urban design, things like that?
Yeah, absolutely.
I spend a lot of my time doing everything from production housing to disaster relief
and recovery and all things in between.
A lot of that looks like, yes, I have a degree in architecture and urban design architecture
is the design of buildings, urban design is the design of all the spaces in between the
buildings, and then planning are all of the codes and requirements necessary to make those
first two things happen.
A lot of my life exists between those three disciplines.
That can be currently working on the design of a really big 50-acre park in Cleveland,
and also working on lots of large-scale city master planning related to equity and resilience.
So that manifests in a lot of different ways, but I think for me personally at the root
of all of it is sitting down, having conversations not unlike what we're doing today with people
specifically around the design of the places that they live, work, and do life.
Sitting across from community members, sitting across from neighborhood organizations, hosting
meetings and churches, talking to local leaders, et cetera, being like, okay, X person has
X millions of dollars to work on a project, let's talk about what it should be, and not,
I'm going to go take my technical expertise, design a thing, and tell you what your community
should look like.
Yeah.
And guys, that's something I was talking about earlier with her before the recording.
You might have heard this already from John Max when he's teaching.
He talks about walking slowly through the crowd and talks about you go where the people
are.
And the reason for that is so you can get their feedback.
You can see who they are, how they live their lives, and learn how to, from the leadership
perspective, learn how to lead them more effectively.
And this isn't too different.
It's like figuring out how to really construct a vision that they would want.
Yeah.
Because the reality is we were talking, I don't work in the place that I live.
My firm is located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and that's why I moved here six years ago.
But I have worked in Northern California.
I have worked in Texas.
I have worked in states all across the country, and almost notably have never worked in the
city of Pittsburgh or in the state of Pennsylvania.
And so the reality is, is I don't experience on a day-to-day basis the places that I am
working in.
And as a result of that, while yes, I have the technical skill set and the professional
degrees associated with doing my job well, I don't have the day-to-day lived knowledge
and experience of someone who does their life in those places.
And so rather than me entering into a community and saying, I know best because I can tell
you with academic proficiency what you should do, instead, I want to hear your voice.
I want to know, because ultimately, once the design of whatever plan we're working on
is done, I am leaving.
I don't live there.
And so I want you to have ownership.
I want you to know that you have had a voice and what your community looks like.
I want you to know that millions of dollars are going towards investing in the vision
that you have and what you need from the place that you live in.
And so that can be as simple as what should housing look like that directly reflects Fort
Worth, Texas, where I did lots of public housing work.
Or it can look like I did a lot of work in Paradise, California following the campfire
in 2018, which destroyed the town in six hours as a result of an electrical fire.
And it was gone.
Almost everything was gone.
30,000 structures overnight, just in an instant.
And I didn't know Paradise before.
I was only brought in afterwards.
And so none of my academic understanding of natural disasters does any good in a place
that has nothing left.
And so sitting across the table from residents who lost memories and tangible photos of their
lives, they know.
They know what Paradise looked like.
It's all in their head and in their heart.
And I'm like, I want to know that place.
And I want to know what of that place needs to be here again in the future.
And so that's the priority.
That's the purpose of walking slowly through the crowd.
It's like, I, yes, exist with a technical skill set.
But your knowledge is sometimes even more important than mine is.
And so what do I do to both productively extract that for what I do for a living, but also
to honor those stories, to honor the life that you live where you do and ensure that
that is what gets elevated above all.
The only way I know how to respond to that is that it's really cool because, like, I
mean, maybe some of you guys listening have thought about that before.
That's not something I've ever really thought about.
It's like somebody's doing it.
Somebody is designing the park.
Somebody is rebuilding after natural disasters.
Somebody's, and there's not just one person, it's multiple.
And it's like, there's people doing these things.
And it's great to know that there's people like Bethanie who are taking these, just taking
people to heart.
And like saying, you said before, like you love people.
Yeah.
And I feel like you couldn't do what you do if you didn't.
No, not at all.
So with this podcast being called, the pursuit of calling, like what caused you to want,
what caused you, like what directed you to get into this line of work?
Yeah.
If you don't mind, I'll tell a story because it gets to the heart of how I ended up here.
I was an art major in college for a year before I ended up in architecture school.
And so from like, what do I do well?
I love to draw.
I love to have paint and markers and pens and paper and all sorts of things.
And so I thought being an art student was it.
And I had a four-year plan laid out.
And then I got into college and started to have a tragic sense of, I don't want to do
this, but I don't know where I'm going.
And looking back on a lot of the Lord's grace to lead me right across the street from the
art building was over to the School of Architecture.
But even for the first couple of years in the School of Architecture, from a traditional
perspective, architecture is the design of buildings.
And that's really fun.
And it meant that I could productively use the creative side of my brain and channel
it into something that was physically making a difference in the world.
And so I was like, okay, well, I can get behind this.
I can understand it.
But it was my third year in architecture school.
As a part of the program I was in, every fall we took one week off of school and we traveled
with our professor somewhere across the country.
And it had something to do with that professor's interests or what we were going to be studying
for the semester, whatever it may be.
And so my professor at the time was really interested in social justice and really interested
in the intersection of architecture, planning, and social justice and how our industry has
specifically created conditions that oppress certain populations and elevate to importance
others.
And so we went on a Rust Belt Cities tour to Detroit and Flint specifically.
And my dad had worked a lot in Detroit when I was a kid.
For all intents and purposes, basically in my backyard, living in Indianapolis, less
than five hours away.
But I'd never been, never seen it, only ever heard stories.
And my professor was like, I want you to read nothing on the news before we go.
I don't want you to look up Detroit.
I don't want you to look up Flint.
We're just going to go.
And I have conversations prepared for us to have when we get there.
And so little did we all realize, but this was the start of the Flint water crisis when
so many of the pipes in the city were putting toxins into the water.
And to this day, the city of Flint does not have clean, fresh water for the entire town
because they are still trying to deal with rotting infrastructure.
But so we get up to the town of Flint, which is like 30 minutes north of the city of Detroit.
And we get up there and my professor had arranged for us to sit in this old church building
and have a conversation with this police officer who would become a pastor at a church.
And I'm fascinated because I grew up in the church, strong believer, and so I'm like,
oh, well, this will be really cool to be in a church surrounded by classmates who don't
believe in the Lord who may not see the brevity of what we're sitting in front of.
But I was like, that's fine.
So we're sitting and having this conversation.
And he had a member of his congregation with him who was there to talk to us about the
town.
And for those who have never been there or may not know, it's so desolate.
There's so much abandonment.
There's very few people that still live in the town.
For obvious reasons, now the population is probably declining because of the water crisis.
I mean, there's so many issues at hand.
But people who have just some have stuck around through all of it.
And this member of the congregation was one of those.
And so I remember after we'd listened to the police officer, and there's actually a documentary
series on Netflix, Side Little Plug, about the town of Flint, and several of the people
that we met while we were there are in that documentary.
And it's really cool to watch.
But I was sitting at lunch with this member of the congregation.
We were talking to him about what he does in his daily life in the city of Flint.
And he owns a lawn.
He's telling us, I own a lawn mower, and I mow the grass at the church.
And he was like, but there's this strip mall that's crossed from the church that's been
abandoned for years.
And so after I'm done mowing the grass at the church, I go across the street and I mow
the grass at the abandoned strip mall that's across from the church.
And he was like, then as I'm going about my daily business throughout the week, he was
like, there's lots of abandoned lots in my neighborhood.
And so as often as I can, I get out and I mow the grass at each of those abandoned properties
as well.
And I'm sitting here and I hate mowing the grass.
And I generally hate yard work of any sort.
And so I, in my complete naivety, look at this gentleman and I was like, can you explain
why?
Like, why of all things do you mow the grass?
Because it's hot.
That doesn't sound fun.
Like I can't understand of all the things that you would do.
That's your choice.
And he was like, you know what?
I own a lawn mower, which most of my neighbors don't and our church doesn't.
And if the property is abandoned for obvious reasons, there's no one designated to mow
the grass.
And he's like, but I own a lawn mower and I have some free time.
And so I use my free time and the resources I have in front of me to make my neighborhood
beautiful.
And that's what I can contribute.
And I think my neighborhood is a beautiful place filled with beautiful people in a beautiful
city.
And I want other people to see my neighborhood, to look that exact same way.
I want them to know that this is a beautiful place also.
And this is what I can do to contribute to them being able to see my neighborhood is
beautiful.
And truly I sat dumbfounded, completely dumbfounded because I was like, I viewed this as such a
weird thing to do.
And in his mind, this was the one beautiful act of love that he could show his community.
And it was the one thing that he could do repeatedly to say, this neighborhood is worth
love.
My community is worth love.
And I'm going to make sure that it's well loved.
And I left the city of Flint that week in the city of Detroit that week.
And I was like, okay, Lord, well, then what is my one thing?
What is the thing that you have given me the resource and the capacity to do to love people
who deserve to be loved, to love communities that deserve to be loved, and to show that
they are worthy of that love.
And so for me, it just so happens to be that I really, really love people and I really
love sitting and have conversations with people.
And I've been technically gifted in the world of planning and architecture.
And so from that moment forward, there was this marrying of, and this interweaving of
all of these things that the Lord had given me to do this.
And so it became my life's work to figure out how to do that in a profession that doesn't
traditionally support this kind of work or this avenue.
It's extremely small in the world of architecture and planning.
And so I worked for nonprofits and I sat in circles with people who did this on a daily
basis and I called random people to get coffee because I'm like, you do this for a living.
So how do I walk this out?
And one experience after the next ended up now here.
I think that trip was in 2014, I believe, so 10 years later doing the thing I never
could have imagined coming out of one conversation with a man who really likes to mow the grass.
That man.
Like, guys, this is why I like, I already said about why I like having guests, but that's
not even like the piece of out thing.
You're like, like, don't talk about yourself.
I don't want to talk about myself as much.
But like the things that you've seen, the people you've talked to, like you went and
reached out and reached out to people you didn't know to find out things, just to find
out things that you wanted to know about what you do now.
And relatively, I'm thinking about the podcast.
If I just stuck with the people I knew about like to for guests and like to figure out
new things and things like that, like this, like part of it would be so much smaller.
This podcast would be like, it's not like a huge thing right now, but it's like, for
me, it's huge.
It's like this thing I love to do.
And like, I know that I think there's like, there's like whenever you're finding your passion
and you're relatively thinking about like, maybe you don't know what you're passionate
about, but then you're, I think that like this example of it at least, and I don't think
this is everybody's example, but like, like you just went out and you started like, like
you start reaching out to people that things that you wanted to know, because you want
to learn more about it so you can do it so you could do it and do it well and do it more
effectively.
And that's a big part of this podcast because I went and do research and if I look out people
that I knew and I own a book now from this guy, John Stange, I think I don't actually
I don't think I think that was the wrong way to say his last name, but it's okay.
The like, I was on like invited to a zoom call a few weeks ago and he had and like,
and he has multiple podcasts put up multiple books and he had like an open house zoom call
with a couple people from our church, our private group and like, and I was able to
get advice from him.
And like, it's so cool that like, one, like, like you're able to like, we're able to do
that we're able to seek out these people to guide us to do the things that we want to
be able to do.
Yeah.
It was one of the questions that you had me thinking about before of what are the tools
and resources for me specifically that I've utilized or that help in the pursuit of my
own calling.
And for me, you know, I actually probably shouldn't say this.
I don't listen to podcasts all that often because I get really distracted listening to
people talk while I'm at work because I get so excited and invested in what they're talking
about that I can't pay attention to what I'm supposed to be doing.
So I don't listen to podcasts super often and I don't read from a like self-help or
self-development perspective as often because a lot of it tends to be very career focused
or very point in time focused.
But again, I love people and I think, you know, I, I have an inflated sense of independence
and the Lord and I are working on it.
And I think one of the things I've learned most as a result of that inflated sense of
independence is that in fact, the Lord equipped all of us differently and put each of us for
such a time as this.
And that doesn't just mean I have to put my blinders on and I individually have to do
the thing that I was called to do.
And I have to focus solely on the Lord and I executing the thing right in front of me.
But in fact, while uncomfortable as it may have been, it was a studio reviewer in my
third year in architecture school who got me an internship when I lived in Louisville,
Kentucky for three months.
While most of my classmates were living at home and working in their hometowns, I randomly
moved to a different state to go learn from this person who I knew for about 10 minutes
before I moved there.
And I went to graduate school in Detroit upon the recommendation of several people in my
life who recommended this one small university that many people had never heard of but had
some of the most phenomenal professors who then shaped my ability to do things like go
spend three weeks in South Africa or do a human rights fellowship in Poland.
And I say all of those things and it sounds like bragging.
The Lord instrumentally put these individual people in my life to push these things forward.
But that also requires the act of faith of I have to get really uncomfortable to call
someone and be like, hey, can I have copy with you because your career sounds interesting
and I really want to hear about it.
Or hey, such and such from the new firm that I work at, it's really uncomfortable to say
that I'm ready to move from a place that I have worked at for the last five and a half
years, but you all are doing some really interesting work that feels really in alignment with where
I feel like I'm going.
Can we sit down and talk about it and figure out if there's a way that I plug in or, you
know, hey, youth students or young adults who I spend my time around, I will put myself
out there as in mentorship opportunities as someone that you can just use as a sounding
board as a person who's walking out their own life who wants to hear what you are currently
navigating and walking through.
Because that means maybe you have something to learn from the ways that I have stumbled
in doing this.
And maybe I have something to learn from the boldness of a 21 year old that I could not
have fathomed having when I was that age.
Like it's all of these moments and it's like, it's not to suggest that books and podcasts
aren't helpful because they are in the most beautiful ways, but the people behind all
of those things are also so equally beautiful and accessible and oftentimes really willing
to talk and have conversations, even if it means sending some really uncomfortable emails.
So guys, take that to heart.
Like I want to ask you something.
Where did you get that confidence?
Oh gosh, it's really, I have had several conversations with people in my life about imposter syndrome
because I don't feel like that confident of a person to be completely honest and transparent.
And so when most people reflect back to me, where do you get that confidence?
What how do you do X, Y and Z?
For a long time, it was an imposter syndrome struggle and then it was the humility of being
like, that's the Lord.
And I don't say that lightly or easily, but it truly has to be because I don't feel that
way in my own strength and in my own ability.
I certainly don't feel like that confident of a person.
I get knots in my stomach every time I sit in my car outside of the coffee shop of the
person who I'm going to go meet with that I randomly got the nerve to send an email
to and now have found myself walking out the life decision that I was hoping maybe I could
just stay behind closed doors.
And so it, it truly is a the Lord is guiding those steps and the Lord is walking that out
and I am the vessel by which all of that is happening and taking to heart that reality
of I don't have to equip myself with any confidence.
I am not the strong one here.
I am not doing this of my own volition.
The Lord is opening doors and I'm walking through them and it's as simple as walking
through the door of the coffee shop for a two hour conversation.
It's also walking through the door of leaving a place that I had worked for five and a half
years that had largely become a huge piece of my identity.
And the boldness and reassurance to do those things is that I serve a God who has been
faithful up until now, who's won every battle before this.
And I was reading something this week where they're like, if you feel like you're hanging
on by a thread, at least make sure it's a thread at the end of his cape that's in the
temple and it's like the Lord has won all of these victories.
And that's where it all gets to come from.
That's the confidence I get to walk on.
I'm just hanging by a thread both days.
I am just holding on to hope and a prayer and making it look like the world is a very
confident place, but that's all his doing.
Wow.
And it's like the polar opposite of what a lot of people would say.
Like, what do you get that confidence for?
Like, oh, I did these things.
I do these practices and they talk about themselves a lot.
And no, you give the credit to God.
And I think that's great because it's like...
It's not me.
I stand in my own way if I try to fabricate it.
And I think like, for me, I pray for confidence.
I pray for guidance and hope and all these things I know he has.
And there's like a work with my therapist even to like work on my confidence.
And like whenever I get those knots in my stomach, like, it gives me like some like
mental practices to do or like, she's like, okay, go stand in that uncomfortable moment
for just a few more seconds.
And then like you've had to get out, get out.
And I just find...
I find my...
I know that there's something interesting as you...
And this is kind of taking a little bit of a tangent, so I apologize, guys.
But like there's something interesting about like as you walk out in confidence, like even
if you're not fully confident, like you walk out of confidence and you see what happens.
Because like you had their knot in your stomach in the car, but you...
But then you went in and you had the conversation and like maybe it wasn't during, but maybe
it was after like, wow, that was great.
And like, man, I'm happy.
I'm happy that like, like, one, like you have that confidence.
We have access to the confidence, like to the source of it.
And like, like, I'm happy.
It's great that I was able to do that, but it wasn't me.
Like it wasn't me.
It was like, it wasn't me because I would have stayed in the car.
And that's the slight twist of, you know, I have walked into several of those conversations
and felt like I had to be the one to muster all of the strength and then walked out of
them being like, man, the Lord is good.
Because at the end of the day, I would have stayed in the car.
I probably would have never sent the email.
I would have never changed jobs.
I would have never moved to the places I have lived in.
I would not have done any of the decisions that I have, that I have quote unquote made
up into this point, but the Lord knew that and made a way anyways.
And at the end of the day, it is glorifying to him to watch his people walk out what he
has given them to do.
And that, you know, we, when we talk about it in these big, yes, I have this really interesting
profession and this is the calling on my life.
And I put so much weight on that profession.
It's like the Lord has equipped me for a lot of things that have nothing to do with my
professional career as beautiful as it is.
And so if I put all of the focus on, well, my calling is only in this professional career.
Because I won't even have those conversations because I'm so focused on this thing sitting
right in front of me.
And it's like, okay, I want to, Lord, I want to see holistically your picture.
And that includes all of those people that you meet in coffee shops and all of those
emails that you send and all of those open house zoom calls that you're a part of and
all of the learning and growing that we do that's fixing our eyes on Jesus and walking
it out on a daily basis.
And it's okay that I don't have the confidence to do it because I have confidence that he
does.
Yeah.
And that's all I need.
Right.
Like, guys, I want to give you like, oh, when I go back to a couple of things that you
said, but specifically for like the listener here and like, there are things that you
want to do, right?
There are things that like you want to do that you want to seek out that you like you
have like this, maybe this passion that like you don't know where it comes from maybe.
And you don't know how, but then at the same time, like I talked about this last episode,
like you don't know where to start.
You don't know how you don't know where to like, you don't know how to get more information.
And like it's not, and I do like that you said, like it's not just in the books.
It's in the people who wrote them.
And like, and there's, we talked about going to the source and like going to like you go
to God, you pray and like you can, but like we also go to the like who wrote the book
or the source of the book?
Yeah.
Like you go to that person, you can go to that person and sometimes like maybe they won't
reach and maybe they're too, maybe, maybe like they're busy.
I can't reach out, but like you also might just know the people.
You might also just know people.
Yes.
Like you don't know, like there's like, I like for me, like I want to have my own business.
I want to have like, I want to, I have this entrepreneurial mind.
I feel like he's giving me and there's, I know entrepreneurs who are very successful.
I have their phone number and like that.
And like, and like I wouldn't want one, I wouldn't have, like this is like maybe a,
I don't know, but like I wouldn't have known that if I wouldn't have walked in the doors
of the church.
Yeah.
I wouldn't have, and I wouldn't have like, have the confidence to even like, I didn't
ask for the number.
They were just friendly and like we talked to the conversations and then like, I don't
remember how I got these guys's numbers.
And like, or like one guy, Ed, uh, past red, uh, it was like, uh, hooked me up with to
like get, get, uh, food with him at one point.
And like, I have all these guys numbers on my phone and like, I'm kind of convicted
because I haven't reached out to them in a while.
And like, and like just to spend time with them.
Yeah.
Because they live their lives.
Uh, yeah.
You, it doesn't always have to be, um, I want to sit down and extract all of this information
about the one very specific thing that would help me grow as much as it is putting yourself
in proximity to all of who they are.
Because I was, um, having a conversation with a friend several years ago who was a former
small group leader of mine and we were going around the room talking about our biggest
hopes and dreams.
Like what was this big feels really unattainable dream that we have on our hearts.
And she was like, okay, now I want to go back around the room and name the one step that
you can take tomorrow.
That's great.
And it's a very simple act.
And for me, a lot of it was putting myself in proximity.
Um, cause I get bored Google searching and trying to understand how to carve my way in
this world, um, but putting myself in proximity to all of who someone is, all of how they're
walking out their daily life.
I can glean a lot from someone's relationship to their family as a means for understanding
what their professional life might look like as much as I can glean a lot of understanding
from how someone serves in the church and how that mindset impacts how they walk through
their professional careers.
And so it's not always this big scary, I'm going to sit down and I'm going to ask you
these nine questions about your professional goals and aspirations so that I may learn
how you got to where you are.
But I'm, you know, I think of, did the Pittsburgh leadership foundations, um, emerging leaders
collaborative last year and sat down with people like Mark Sorrell and others.
And as beautiful as it was to listen to pastor Lee and Mark talk about how they got to where
they are today, step by step.
I also sat at the feet of people who have beautiful testimonies of lives lived for the
Lord.
And it's simple things like learning in that leadership collaborative that I, at the time
I was both working for the church and also working at the firm downtown.
And so I was living what I would refer to as like a dual professional life.
I was working in a secular environment and then I was working in a church environment
and the simple extraction of let's remove the notion that one of your jobs is secular
and one of them is not and believe that all of it is on mission, not just because you're
not just in the church and that's the only place you can be on mission.
You're on mission here also.
And it's like, well, the minute that I elevate outside of this notion that only doing things
at the church is on mission or only serving is on mission.
And that in fact, the way that I walk out my professional career is on mission also
and that doesn't always have to be in the church.
Now all of a sudden I've learned a lesson I never would have guessed sitting in front
of people who also had very tangible lessons to learn about how to walk out their purpose
in the world.
And that would have, had I gone in the perspective that that's what I had to gain from them,
never would have heard the other piece of it.
And yet I honestly think I learned so much more from the simple mind shift that they
had around how they approach what it means to live out their calling.
And so that, that alone, but that, you don't know those things without being in proximity
to those people.
So you can take the pressure off of it being this big, huge thing to do and make it as simple
as you've lived a life for the Lord.
What do I learn from that also?
And like there's, and just to put some context in there's for those who don't know who Pastor
Lee is and Mark Serrero, Pastor Lee is a founding, one of the founding pastors of Amplified
Church in Plum.
And then Mark Serrero is the owner, founder of a very successful bakery, Oklahoma Bakery.
And like, like you were saying like secular versus non-tecular, like it's like they're
both for the Lord.
Yeah.
And like, and like it's, you wouldn't think like, oh, how are donuts for the Lord?
And like, or what does an architectural designer, someone who, you know, works in the planning
world have to learn from a man who owns a really successful bakery and the founding
pastor at a church.
Because any self-help book would tell you to go find an architect to talk to.
If you're going to work in the world of architecture.
And instead I'm sitting in front of a man who has built his life around one of the best
bakeries I've ever been to.
And a man who took a leap of faith to found a church.
Yeah.
It's like, those are awesome.
That's incredible.
And yet completely important resources that have nothing to do with what I draw for a
living.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
Like there's, my mind went to like, there's plenty of successful people out there by the
world standards that success, like as in like financially successful, they're doing plenty
of people that they're really well for themselves.
But there aren't people that maybe you want to emulate.
And there's, can you really, you look at their success.
I feel like a lot of people like, man, what are they doing?
I want to do what they're doing so I can be where they're at.
And there's some credence to that.
Cause like maybe they have a certain mindset shift with shifts, but like then there's like,
who are they at their core?
And like, I don't want to like, I'm not going to put anybody on blast, but like there's,
like, I'll listen to people that are, that don't like, don't have faith that are very
successful, successful by the world standards because they have certain practices that I
can glean from that I can get in from.
I can like, that I can like, I can use that to grow and I can apply it myself to, to my
faith and I can work.
I can like, I can learn from that.
There's, then there's, I guess what I'm trying to say is like, you want to be careful who
you're choosing to be in proximity to.
There's, you know, this is funny.
I say this a lot, but like this podcast is like, it's not like a, I don't market it out
there.
I think it might be like a subcategory on this podcast.
Like I don't market it as like a fully Christian podcast, but like, because I'm like, I'm a
Christian with a podcast.
That's kind of like, I am like, and so like, I don't have to, like, it's not a, something
I'm, I'm not, I used to word calling, which is a very kind of Christian-ese word.
Can you look up the word calling on like Apple podcast and it's like all Christian podcasts.
But like, but like, I, I wanted to, there's, God just comes up all the time.
And there's all, like a lot of times up at the time, you talk about like finding those
people that are people with faith that, that are successful because of what they built
with the Lord.
And what, and it took that first.
Like, I've heard Mark story before about like how they started to give more.
And then like the Lord and the Lord in there and their experience and for them, like, he
started to give back and he was like, so we just started getting more.
And like, and like, that's not like, he's not gonna leave everybody like, like financial,
like quote unquote freedom because they ties, but like, but you can also give you, it gives
you things in other ways.
Like it's not just financial return.
It's like, it's a life, it's like things he gives you in your life.
It's like how he grows you as a person.
It's like these different, like, like you said, like, for, like it's those thoughts of like,
hey, I'm gonna email this person and I'm gonna email this person or make this phone call.
And I'm going to, um, you can stop me.
It's like, this is like sounding like, I sound, I think maybe something I'm saying can be
confusing.
I'm fine with being corrected, but like there's, um, like,
there's something to be said about the way that the Lord honors the steps that we take
with our eyes fixed on him.
And it's, you know, you are correct in saying that it doesn't matter.
Like tithing is not so that we individually glean financial freedom.
If we view it that way, it's solely a prosperity gospel in the same way that it's very easy
to be like, okay, Lord, well, I'm going to do this thing so that you give me something
in return.
But I think there is evidence in scripture and time and time again, a witness to what
it means to walk out our life in partnership with the one who created us and to honor him
with everything that we do and checking our heart posture as we do all of those things.
So am I checking my heart posture when I'm going into a moment to have a conversation
at a coffee shop because I personally want to be more financially free and make more
money in the world and have a career that is deemed successful by the world?
Or do I want to honor a person that the Lord has created with their time and the talents
and gifts that they've been given to simply sit in front of them and ask questions and
give them a moment to share their story and watch as the Lord uses their story to shape
my perspective.
And when I think about tithing in the church, it's often that my heart changes as much as
my financial position may also change.
That is not near as extreme as the change in what it means to give with empathy and
give completely free of any perspective that I have to hold on to something because it's
mine to have and that this is all the Lord is deserving of.
And so I think it's again, it sums up in how am I, what is my heart posture as I'm having
all of those conversations and entering into those moments and sitting at the feet of leaders
that the Lord has put in front of me and honoring the gift that he has given them, honoring
the person that he has created them to be and allowing the Lord to use that to have influence
over my life both tangibly in my career because it certainly has and also intangibly in the
shifting of heart posture in the way that I view the people that the Lord has created,
the way that I walk every day.
Yeah.
That's what I was saying really well.
It's a heart posture in other ways, I think it's foundation.
What are you voting off of?
But we'll leave that at that.
I want to move into like, I wanted to question that we talked about stresses and worries
and like whenever you, there's a time I think everybody has when like work gets stressful
and there, especially when it's something that you're really passionate about, it can
feel sometimes really deliberate.
I can't say the word.
It's debilitating.
Yes.
And so whenever that happens, like what do you do?
How do you manage that?
This is where I learn the art form of daily depending on the Lord because not always
responding the best.
And I think it, I come from a profession that has a lot of daily stress.
I come from a work environment that was extremely stressful up until a couple of months ago
and walking out the lived reality of I have walked through a door that I feel like the
Lord has opened and that does not mean that it was rainbows and butterflies on the other
side or the grass being greener or any of the fun phrases you could think of.
And there are plenty of days in which I encounter stress or frustration at work or whatever
it may be.
And in those moments, it's this beautiful stirring of the enemy to say, now is when
I'm going to pull you as far from the source of calm and the source of peace.
And I'm going to give you this sense that you have to take all control and that all
of this is resting on your shoulders.
And I say it's beautiful because it is truly this most perfect twisting of where I can
be, where I should be and what I have access to and what I ultimately end up walking out.
So in a lot of those moments, I end up sitting for a second being like, okay, well, I have
to do X, Y and Z and I have to ensure that all of these things are done and I have to
manage these four people and I have to clearly communicate to principles and bosses at work
and say, you have overlapping responsibilities, we need to shift deadlines.
And all of a sudden, I becomes the most common word that I use.
And slowly my reaction time is getting better of like, oh, let's pump the brakes for a second.
Let's sit in why I think that I am responsible for fixing this right now.
Why do I believe that my entire work stress is sitting on my two shoulders and take a
second to pause because I think the enemy wants us stressed out.
I think the enemy wants us in moments like that because it's ungodly confusing.
It's extremely overwhelming to be in a moment where all of a sudden I feel like I am carrying
the entire burden.
And yet time and time again, we see in scripture, nope, that's not the point.
I really don't want you to carry the entire burden on your shoulders.
Instead, you're supposed to cast that at the feet of Jesus, cast that at the cross that
has already forgiven, that has already made a way where there was no way that has already
given you immeasurable peace.
But the enemy doesn't want me to remember that.
Stress is for me, one of the easiest ways the enemy convinces me to forget all of that,
all that I know.
And that sounds like a very hyper spiritual way of approaching stress in the work environment.
But truly, when it comes down to it, if my constant thinking is focused on stress and
focused on what I have to do in order to fix said stress, I am taking back control and
I am intentionally putting space between myself and the Creator that has made a way in this
moment.
Just because I have peace from the Lord does not mean that stress is going to go away,
but my peace from the Lord adjusts my attitude.
My peace from the Lord adjusts my perspective on what that stress actually means and looks
like.
That stress is not the end of the world.
I spent most of my afternoon yesterday coordinating thousands of dollars of print material for
public meetings next week in Cleveland.
Truly one of the more stressful things I have done this week to try and figure out how to
get all of this done.
And in every one of those moments, I was like, well, I have this to-do list to keep track
of.
I have these two interns and this landscape architect who are all doing work from me.
I'm managing two bosses who are on vacation.
And meanwhile, I have an entirely different project team who is questioning why I have
yet to work on anything they have asked me to in the last two weeks.
And I sit in that moment and I'm like, I'm not worthy.
I'm not good enough.
I can't accomplish this.
Why did someone hire me to do this job?
All our lies and all I need is 30 seconds to state out loud that all of those are lies.
I need 30 seconds to take a moment and say, Lord, that's not from you.
Lord, that's not from you either.
Lord, that is alive the enemy and I would like to send it back where it came from.
And I would like you to remind me that you put me here, that you made a way for me to
be here, that you have equipped me with everything that I need.
And that does not mean I am independently equipped.
That means I am equipped both myself and with the people that you have given me in order
to accomplish what is in front of me.
And that 30 seconds makes a world of difference.
That 30 seconds changes what stress means and looks like that takes the pressure off.
That says stress is not my identity.
Yeah.
And again, sounds like a very Jesus answer.
However, if I view it as an attack of my identity and not just a I'm stressed out in this moment,
what on earth am I going to do to get all of this done?
It changes everything in that moment.
And sometimes we do it really well.
Sometimes we don't at all.
Sometimes we need to go back to the Lord and repent for the fun vocabulary that we used
as we were thinking through all of the things that we had to do in those moments of stress.
And that's just vulnerability at its finest to say, we do not do it perfectly and I certainly
don't.
But if I can take that time, if I can readjust my thinking, yes, I'm stressed, but I remember
that the Lord sits above my stress.
And so because I am seated at the right hand with Jesus as a result of being saved, I am
also sitting on top of my stress.
So I am a conqueror and co-heir with Christ.
Okay, great.
Let's remember all of that truth.
Just say all of those things that determine our identity and allow that to be how I walk
out what those stressful moments look like.
Yeah.
I think the one thing that we talked about a lot in the past with the men's ministry
with the ineffegians of Arm of God and it's remembering like, it's just like, I don't know
if it's like, I'll tell myself sometimes, I'm like, okay, it's like not often enough,
but like I have done it before.
It's like, okay, let's put on the belt of truth.
Yes.
Let's just remember, like you said, just remember what the truth is.
Yes.
He didn't, the Lord didn't breathe the scripture into existence so that we could draw cute
pictures of it and think that it's something we only need in times where the wars in our
life feel the biggest.
We don't just need the Lord when things feel like nonsense is hitting the fan and our life
is falling apart.
I need the Lord maybe more walking through of my daily professional career.
I needed the Lord prior to driving here today because my very adorable dog really was not
fond of the idea that I was leaving the house and thought she should get to come with me.
I'm like, nope, okay Lord, where's that abundant patience?
Where's the fruit of the spirit at the moment?
Because I need it right now as much as I need it in life's biggest and most stressful moments.
And so again, I like to think of it, the pretty, the cute and adorable pictures help us learn
it as a child and that's beautiful.
The ability to draw and have visual representation of the scripture is so important and something
that has personally changed my life, but it isn't always just the cute and adorable pictures.
It is, well, I need it every day.
I got to put it on every day and I got to make the choice to put it on every day and
I got to make the choice to use it in those moments.
I think it was Brandon during our Ephesians study, Pastor Brandon at Amplified Church.
I realize maybe could have just said more clearly that is how Thompson and I know each
other so I use these as very quick things, but Pastor Brandon at Amplified Church, I
think is a part of our Ephesians study was talking about the fact that we don't just
wake up and decide if we're going to worship.
We wake up and decide what we're going to worship.
And so I think the same thing is true of I get to wake up and decide not if I'm going
to let God have control, but what I'm going to let God have control of.
Am I going to let the Lord have control of all of it or am I going to give him a little
bit and I'm going to take this little bit and then I'm going to let, I'm going to succumb
to the enemy having that little bit over there.
And so that means daily I make this decision.
Daily I put it at the feet of Jesus and putting it daily at the feet of Jesus does not somehow
mean that I have failed as a believer.
Yeah.
It means that I have reference and understanding of who my savior is.
Yeah.
Full stop.
Great.
No, that's awesome.
And to this will be, I want to ask you one more question before we move into the final,
final questions.
Just as a nice wrap up based off, based off of our conversation and between calling stress
and we didn't get into the identity question, but you did touch on it.
What kind of advice would you give to somebody that is looking to pursue their, want to pursue
something and their work and maybe they're worried about their identity.
They don't know that they, they be, they're stressed out in like, you know what, I was
going to let you interpret that.
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
And my second point of encouragement is just to allow yourself the ability to relinquish
some of the stress that you are undue putting onto what purpose and call, these are big
words and we prioritize them sometimes in very negative ways.
And this is not just in the church.
This is in most industries, prioritizing professional advancement and saying that everything that
you do is somehow going to impact your ability to have the career that you want and shape
your ability to have this next promotion or this next title or whatever it may be.
And as a result of all of the factors around us that suggest that these are heavy things
to carry, we begin to assume a position of, well, I have to carry it all myself.
And so somehow every conversation I have has to point me to what my next step is professionally
or every move that I make has to be advancement in some way or, you know, you name any one
of them and we put so much stress on it because we somehow think that all of a sudden, I'm
like, it's all on us to do this or everything that we do is going to have some impact on
this thing that we have in front of us.
And we got to let go of some of that.
I know we didn't talk a lot about identity, but a lot of my professional career for the
last five and a half years caused significant identity issues because I was putting so much
pressure on what people thought of me because of this really cool thing that I do.
And if I didn't do this really cool thing anymore, was I worth anything to begin with?
And if I don't have this really cool thing as a part of my life and this really small
firm that is this picture perfect vision of what everyone thinks my professional career
should be, well, if I don't have that anymore, what am I worth as a person?
And that's a lot of unnecessary pressure to put on a job.
Truly.
And all of that was manmade stress.
Every last bit of it was me taking into account opinions that were not as important as my
saviors.
It took into account me having a lot of control and me being able to achieve what everyone
else said was perfectly crafted for me, and I do think the Lord made me for such a time
as this.
I do think that the Lord gifted me and equipped me with what I need to walk out this specific
job that I do on a daily basis.
And I would be remiss to not say I am extremely grateful and humbled that I get to do this
thing.
But if I allow myself to suggest that that's where everything comes from, I've completely
negated the point of salvation.
I've completely negated the gospel in an instant.
And that stress has to get removed.
We have to quit tying our identities to big words like purpose and calling because we
were just talking this week about the fact that we're all called to be preachers.
That doesn't mean I need the title preacher in order to do that.
That means that I am equipped and called to also bring people into glory someday.
That I have the responsibility to share who the Lord is with someone as much as I have
the responsibility and burden of sitting in my professional life and ensuring that every
resident I speak to has a voice that's elevated in the design process as much as I hold responsibility
and weight and caring for the people that are around me as much as weight and responsibility
as I have at serving at the church on Sundays and at youth.
These are all pieces of our calling.
These are all moments of purpose that we have that we get to daily decide to walk out.
And if I put stress on one bucket of that and something crumbles, all of a sudden my
identity is in question.
All of a sudden my worth is in question.
And that's only one piece of an extremely beautiful picture.
And we have a lifetime to learn what that picture looks like.
We have a lifetime here on this side of heaven to walk with Jesus and uncover each little
bit of it.
And I don't want to miss any of those because I was too busy saying I have a lot of pressure
in order to have a nine to five job that is my purpose because there's so much purpose
and calling to be had outside of that nine to five also.
And so just take the pressure off.
Relieve yourself of the worry and stress that comes with the word calling to say, okay,
Lord, well, what have you called me to today?
Yeah.
Okay, Lord, what am I doing today in my job outside of my job in the lives of the people
that I love that you've put in front of me to steward right now in the people who don't
know you yet?
And let that be, let that be the thing that brings joy.
Let that be the thing that expands our opportunity and our understanding so that there's a lot
less pressure if I leave my job after five and a half years.
It was a beautiful experience and I would not negate for any reason the way the Lord
used my job for five and a half years.
He's doing something equally as beautiful now in a completely new place and that's okay.
And that's actually a really great thing.
So but that comes with I'm repeating myself, but all that stress, just back it off a bit
and it out of the picture and allow yourself to see all of who you are as a result of all
of who Jesus is.
Yeah.
It's great.
I really appreciate when I just appreciate you being here like I said in the beginning
of the episode, but there's I really appreciate the way you phrase things and I feel like
you've talked with people so much probably really helps you like be as good of a speaker
that you are as you are.
I find like I'm there and I hear people talking like I'm jumbling my words and all this stuff
of them, but like it's even like identity is in this podcast.
It's like if this podcast for some reason ends like that's okay.
Yeah.
I don't want it to, but like if it does, then then it does and like it would and it would
be a and I'd still be a child of God.
Yeah.
And that's and you kind of summed that up well.
Yeah.
So I like to end every episode with just two questions really to get.
I know you said, you don't listen to a lot of podcasts and stuff like that.
I know.
No, no, no, you're good.
It's okay.
There's I know I always ask people like what kind of resources do you and we talked about
that even a lot already.
So whether it whether it's a physical resource or whatever you whatever you want to say,
what kind of resources do you could you direct people towards to pursue to help them with
their calling and leadership, whatever, like it's for floors yours.
Love that.
I am really bad at finishing books also.
I have started.
I have a whole stack on my bookshelf of things that I've started and I see lead like it matters
and I on yours and I have that book at home.
I think I was given it for Christmas as a part of our staff Christmas gift exchange
last year.
But I have I've read a really beautiful snippets from people like Judas Smith and oh gosh,
I can picture the cover of this incredible book that takes stories from the gospel and
rewrite them.
But it walks them out in a way that just like helps paint really lovely pictures of the
the intentionality behind scripture.
We have a lot of scripture translation issues.
And so when you think about things like reading the passion translation in conjunction with
something like the NLT, I love reading things like the passion translation because it tries
to get to the emotion in the heart behind scripture.
And so I can think of all of these half read books that I also don't remember the titles
or authors of which is so not helpful in this moment.
So I'll just repeat the earlier statement of just get plugged in.
Put yourself in proximity.
And so that sometimes means jumping on zoom calls with a bunch of people you may not know
with a podcaster that you really admire.
That may also mean getting plugged in in a local interest group or your church small
groups or whatever else.
There are groups of people doing all sorts of unique and creative things all over the
place.
Yeah.
I spent a summer in Detroit painting murals with an organization called summer in the
city.
We would design murals.
We'd draw them up on the wall like paint by giant paint by numbers.
And then we would bring in high school students to take a red solo cup filled with paint and
they would have to match the color of the paint in their cup to the color of the paint
on the wall in this area that they were supposed to paint.
And I spent all summer doing this and it was really just a great way of getting to know
the city of Detroit.
A city that I had just moved to that I knew nothing about because I had to drive all over
the place to all of the sites that we were painting.
And that has nothing to do seemingly on the surface with anything about pursuing my calling
anything about purpose driven life.
But I live in this city now and want to get to know it.
And so that's how I get plugged in.
And that's just another way of being in proximity to people and resources and things that you
love and exploring gifts and talents that you have that you don't get to use on a daily
basis and allowing yourself the freedom to do those things and do them with the Lord.
Do them walk out every moment of like OK Lord I'm going to go hammock now with you in the
park and I'm going to explore this new park I've never been to.
And that can be equally as valuable as OK Lord I'm going to do the uncomfortable thing and
send the email.
Sometimes that means starting with a Google search and Google is great.
It'll tell you all sorts of people that exist in the world that do things.
Sometimes it is just where can I go to explore some other part of me.
But put yourself in proximity.
That'll be my sum up statement.
That's great.
And if that means putting yourself in proximity to bookstores if you see me in person ask
again and I promise I will remember whatever books I've half started.
That might be helpful.
Yeah.
I'm going to sum it up with that.
You already summed up.
But I think it plugged in guys.
Yes.
Not meant to do life alone.
Yeah.
So get my first night serving at youth.
I met a student who wants to be an architect.
Wow.
I was like that's random.
Yeah.
Thanks Lord.
All because I'm at youth.
Like yeah.
I was kept plugged in.
That's great.
So many good people in the world.
And then so you say you don't listen to podcasts but there's now that you know you've got a
feel for this one.
Who would you recommend as a guest to be on?
Mel McFarland.
There we go.
I don't I apologize because I don't listen to podcasts very much.
I've already spoken to her but Mel McFarland would be at the top of my list.
All right.
So when you think of someone who has laid down one very distinct path of life to pursue
what the Lord has on her heart.
Yeah.
She's a really interesting story.
That's great.
Thank you.
She's fantastic.
She's also just one of my favorite humans.
All right.
Well guys, thank you for listening to I think now the officially they keep getting longer
and longer every single episode.
Thanks for sticking it out.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the pursuit of calling the first time I got
to say that.
And guys, if you haven't already give this episode give this podcast five stars on Apple
podcast, Spotify, wherever you can review.
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So guys, thank you again.
I'll see you next time.