No, I was awake for 25 hours on the day of the
event. Part of my complaint when I was studying
more of these events is we need more strong women
and you need multiples of us and you need to
let us do this part. You know, not that women
can't suffer men and men can't suffer women,
but I think what's wrong with letting some people
specialize? Especially commercially, like you're
studying at a climbing gym. You don't need to
climb part of the B6 necessarily. It's a pro
climbing league. It's not like the IFSC is great
because they have a really serious job, which
is selecting the Olympic athletes for our sport.
We don't have that serious job. Our serious job
is trying to do something fun for people to watch
and for the athletes to compete in. Welcome to
another episode of the That's Not World Climbing
podcast. I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited
to introduce my guest for today, Jackie Hueftle.
Jackie was the routesetting director at the Pro Climbing
League or PCL Comp and is also the co -founder
of Kilter. In this episode, we'll learn more
about the unique challenges that came with setting
for PCL, why she thinks it's important to have
more women setting for women's comps, and how
you could maybe try climbing the exact same boulder
set at PCL. I hope you enjoy this episode with
Jackie. Please pardon this brief intermission,
but I'm excited to talk about Mad Rock's newest
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you to Mad Rock for helping to sponsor the podcast.
Now, back to the show. Yeah, how are you doing
today? You're still in London, right? We're in
Sheffield, actually. which is north a few hours
of London. It's in the Peak District, which is
the main climbing, well, I don't know if I could
say main climbing area and get away with it,
but it's a very popular climbing area in the
UK. Wait, the comp didn't take place there? No,
for the comp, we put everything in lorries and
drove them to London and unloaded them and built
everything in the venue and then had the comp
and then took everything down that night and
then put it back in lorries and then drove it
back to Sheffield and then unloaded it. We're
still here sorting it because we, you know, the
comp had duplicate boulders. And so we had to
have triplicate holds and volumes. So we had
two for the boulders and one backup in case something
went wrong with the holder volume. Like it got
damaged in transit or like, I don't know, it
blew a connection point or it broke somehow behind
a wall or whatever could happen. I just wanted
to make sure we had a backup. Yeah, that's a
good idea. When do you finally get to go back
home? It's been like a really long time since
the end of the comp. It's like a month now. No,
it's been like two weeks. Yeah. So it does feel
like a while. No, we we so we both, you know,
we finished the comp. We had a couple extra days
with some of the other crew from PCL and then
everybody left. And then. Me and Ian and Will
Watkins from Unleashed Climbing and Super has
been helping us too. Then the Core guys have
been great. So we've been sorting stuff out,
but we did like some customer visits. We had
to sort stuff out for customers. And then we've
been working in a warehouse. Core generously
gave us space in their warehouse, but they also
have, they're running like a flooring business.
So there's like constantly a new maze every day
of like big buns of foam and flooring pieces
and our stuff and pallets. It's been a hectic
and then we've been sick. Everybody's been sick
for at least a few days. So I actually spent
an entire day in bed this week, which I like
normally don't don't do. But everyone's just
kind of hit the wall. So. But it's cool, too.
We're sorting everything out and there's a lot
of interest in a lot of the different sets from
the comp. So we're trying to get people the right
pricing and the right options. And then we're
going to have a copy of everything. Also, the
setting center we're going to have either in.
Colorado or we're working on building one in
France um for it's like it'll be like a home
with a barn with walls um so we'll send some
materials to you should places too how much longer
do you think it'll take yeah getting back home
I don't know I mean we when we when we came over
to look at the venue for PCL in October 2024
we came over for 10 days and we ended up staying
for like almost three months in Europe because
we have trade shows and we have distributors
and partners to visit and so um and that was
you know 2024 to winter of 2025 and then this
year we were already over here for a few months
uh in france and then um we've been here now
for about a month we'd like to go home get some
work done there but we're working on some stuff
here too so it's like you just never know where
the best place to be is when you have a lot of
projects um but uh But we have a CWA trade show
in the U .S. in April, so we're definitely going
to be home for that. Where is it this year? It's
in Salt Lake City. Okay, cool. Yeah, it's very
cool. You should consider coming. There's a lot
of cool industry talks and education and certification
and stuff, and then also a big vendor trade show,
so you can see all the new everything from everybody.
Yeah, I've thought about going before. A while
ago when I was thinking about maybe one day I
would want to own a gym. And then I was like,
I don't really have the money to own a gym. So
maybe not. Yeah. I mean, one of the things about
like we're trying to give people more options
in several areas of the industry. And one of
the things we're doing with our adjustable freestanding
walls, like the walls of the comp were entirely
freestanding, even though they were pretty, pretty
big. And they adjust and that's our kilter boards
do as well. So for boards like that, it's like
much less of a commitment for you. If you were
to rent a space, you could get a couple of those
and put them in. And then if you wanted to change
your layout or get a different space or sell
them because you don't like the business or expand
and move everything, you can just put them in
crates and move them and build them again. So
you're not like, you know, it's not as much of
a commitment as like a built in wall that's like
going to go down with the building, basically.
So I guess like, what do you like? What do you
mean by freestanding? Like, what does that mean?
It means you don't have to attach them to the
building structure in any way. So they don't
need to be bolted to the ground or screwed into
the wall. It's pretty common with even a freestanding
frame. It means it has legs, basically. So it
can stand on its own legs. And so there's different
models on the market. Certainly, you can have
one with legs and also add a couple of bolts
or some concrete screws for a little added wiggle
stability. And that's always nice, too. You know,
you can do kind of a hybrid, but even that you
can just cut the bolts off when you leave the
space. And that's fairly common in commercial
spaces to have the ability to add like shelving
or materials like that. But our new walls, you
don't even have to put anything in the floor
if you don't want to. So you can, but you don't
have to. I'm not going to ask the details of
how that works physically, but that's good to
know. And yeah, I guess going into these walls
and kilter and everything related to that in
your background, how did you get into climbing
setting and this whole kilter thing? I got into
climbing in high school and my mom was actually
dating a climber for a long time. He was a climber
and scuba diver and he started taking my brother
climbing and I didn't want to go because I'd
been climbing before and done climbing. And then
I finally went again and then I fell in love
with it immediately. And that was all I've done
since. So and I got, you know, like most gyms
in the late 90s, it wasn't a robust route setting
program in place. So, you know, they decided
they wanted to teach some people from the gym
and I was invited to come to the class and I
really loved it. And so I've been doing it ever
since. So that was in 1998, both those things.
And then six years later, I moved to Boulder,
Colorado and applied at all the gyms before I
even arrived because I'd been working at a gym
for six years at that point. And, you know, later
I learned it's fairly hard to show up in Boulder
and just start getting a route setting job at
the gyms because a lot of people have that skill
set or some form of it and they want to set.
But I got a job coaching the spot. and working
the desk. And within like a month, the head setter
at the time let me set a climb for a comp they
were having. And I set one climb and he looked
at it and he goes, oh, okay. And he hired me.
So then I worked in the setting program at the
spot. And then later I became the head setter
at the spot for several years. And that was really
fun. We did a lot of comps. We did like four
pretty big comps every year. Each one of our
comps had a big red point round and a pro finals.
And at the time in Boulder, you know, the athletes
we were setting this pro final for were like
Daniel Woods and Dave Graham and Paul Robinson
and Maddie Hong. And then, you know, Alex Puccio
and Megan Mascarenas and Nina Williams. So it
was like, this was like when Megan was winning
the world cups. Like this was like the highest
level of athlete that there was at the time,
basically. So it was very cool thing to do. And
it actually like pulled me away from, I'd been
setting. like seeking out setting bigger comps
like I'd set some youth nationals and I'd set
some pro comps the ones on the trade show you
know on the roof I'd set a few few years of that
um we did the outside on this parking garage
roof and it was like this big light show and
it was a pretty big event um I love doing those
things but doing like just hiding running our
own events at my own gym was something I really
enjoyed and then I also like built a route setting
program and built a mentorship program and, you
know, made documentation of the skill sets I
wanted my setters to have and all this stuff
that I thought was really important or she'll
think is really important. Um, but then, um,
well, two things. One is we had a big outdoor
comp, uh, before I was head setter called the
battle in the bubble and it was an invite and
it was a cool, like. It was battle mode. It wasn't
head to head like PCL. There weren't two identical
problems. It was head to head like the two athletes
of the final final took turns trying to do it
first. So it's just like one after the other,
like if one fell off, the other one could get
on. And it was we had the comp outdoors on the
shores of the Boulder Reservoir. And we had like
the first the start hold was like brought in
by a skydiver and then like bolted to the wall.
And like it was an elimination comp. So we had
like eight people in the first boulder and like.
five on the second boulder and three on the third
boulder and then two on the final boulder um
and it was just a really cool show and it made
me feel like yeah we can definitely do more with
comps than kind of what's been happening and
i think like ifsc stuff is super great for the
olympic track and we support the ifsc at kilter
but um Also, the athletes need more opportunities
and trying to create those for them through something
that's like more flashy and like publicly really
appealing, even for non -climbers. Yeah. How
did you eventually like end up at Kilter? So
I was the head setter at the spot and Ian Powell,
who I'd known from when I first moved to Boulder
because he had been an artist in town. He worked
at the wall company that was next to the spot.
And then he also helped coach the women's team
I was on for a little bit. And then he disappeared
for a while, but he came back to the scene. um
you can like read about him if you want he had
an adventurous few years and he was working at
the spot and he was like stripping the walls
for us and washing all the holds and um so he
got a good feel for what was out there in terms
of climbing holds and he had been shaping climbing
holds since the late 80s and he'd had his own
company and before that he then sold just e -grips
it's now called trango because trango had bought
it and they just renamed it the other year um
and so anyway we were friends and he started
shaping again behind the walls of the spot actually
so i'd like go into work and he will like strip
the wall for us and wash the holds then he'd
like be behind the wall somewhere shaping holds
and the hold market at the time was pretty stale
um i'd been had a pretty robust blog for the
spot that included like you know move by move
evaluations of world cups uh events and the athletes
and then also we did some hold reviews and we
talked about like route setting concepts and
all these things that weren't really well documented
at the time and uh and so i kind of knew what
was out there for new holds at the time and it
was feeling pretty stale and like you know 2011
2012 and then ian came back and started shaping
and it was just really exciting to like see some
new good stuff again so when he got the first
sets back in plastic i started helping sell them
um and then that turned into him and i and a
third partner forming a company together and
then um We later bought that third partner out
and had another new CFO, basically, who's our
third partner now. And yeah, in about 2017 or
I think 2018, I got one foot out of the spot
boat, as it were, and put both feet in the kilter
boat. So I was kind of doing both jobs for quite
a while there. And then I've been full -time
kilter since then. Awesome. So I guess you kind
of went down that path instead of, I guess, trying
to shoot for like an IFSC route center path?
Yeah. I mean, the system for that was really
undeveloped at the time and it was very like
political. And I definitely didn't get along
with the people I needed to suck up to to get
those jobs. That's what it's like. Yeah. Well,
it was. And in the U .S. especially, there was
like a couple of people kind of controlling everything
and like sitting on. like essentially positions
of power for themselves and not really mentoring
others. So there's like other good setters that
U .S. could have in IFSC that didn't really get
the chance at the time. And that's kind of changed
too, I think. More people are getting opportunities
now. But yeah, there was kind of a period of,
I couldn't play the game that I had to play and
I thought it was inappropriate to ask people
to play that game, basically. So I, you know,
like I said, I was setting bigger comps. I enjoyed
doing that, but... Especially at the time, it
was overworked, underpaid, paid super late, super
unorganized events. And it was fun, but having
my own gym where I could control the events,
plan them, make sure we had the right resources,
make sure my setting team got to go home at a
reasonable hour and worked a reasonable kinds
of hours and we had a good result. And we were
still setting for these top athletes. That was
plenty to keep me happy. We did. uh world cup
like special set every year because the world
cup is in veil so all the athletes would come
to boulder for a week or so before and so we
would do like special sets for them so that was
really fun to watch those athletes in the gym
on the stuff we set for them and we um yeah i
really enjoyed that period of time and then like
since then and since kilter and since i'm not
setting it to spot all the time uh i try to do
like a couple events like one event or two events
a year so i'll do like a clinic and an event
a special pump or something um We started Woman
Up in 2017 with Touchstone, which is an all -female
and non -binary setting crew. Oh, I didn't know
you started it. Yeah, they Touchstone crew and
I came up with it, basically. Oh, cool. Yeah,
I've been. It's cool. Oh, yeah. So they're an
old head setter. And then the women, they're
like a ton of amazing women that work at Touchstone.
And so we were kind of like trying to pitch it.
And then they were like really excited about
making it a whole thing. And then they invited
me to come be the chief setter, which was fantastic.
which is, you know, what I wanted to do. And
the team I picked the first year, there were
only like seven women I knew. Actually, I mean,
six women I knew that were even at the time,
like thought were able to do that kind of event.
We had like 70 boulder problems or 65 and then
pro finals. So I invited them and then there
was like one more. I didn't know that the previous
head center touchdown knew her and suggested
her. So that was the first year there was seven
of us. And none of them worked at Touchstone
because they just didn't have any women setters
at the time. And then the second year, we were
in LA and there was 11 setters and three of them
were Touchstone staff. And it was like, awesome.
And Touchstone's, I can't say enough good things
about the crew there and what they did for women's
setting, not just for their own gym, but in general
and what they did by supporting this event because
it's not been... You know, I think it's a really
big event. I think it's pretty expensive. And
I think that they just do it as an active service
for the community. And they like pay you enough
to make it like to justify being there. You know,
we would do it for free because we think it's
cool, but we shouldn't be doing these things
for free either. And like and they, you know,
create like there's like just a lot of cool like
activations for brands and integrations for community.
And like they have so many groups they support.
um that are doing other cool things for the community
indirectly so they're supporting them and then
those those groups are doing like bringing people
outside of you know different um genders and
different backgrounds and different like i don't
know they're trying to create more access for
people of all types basically and then based
on i guess your experience in the past with route
setting do you feel like um it's changed a lot
from back then like do you think it's a lot better
like people aren't um getting super underpaid
super overworked oh i think it's getting better
it's still hard yeah i think it's a hard job
and i think if you haven't done the job you don't
understand how tiring it is and if you have done
it but then you haven't done it for a while you
forget how tiring it is um so i think it's like
it still could be paid more but i do think it's
improved um like i said there was The only women
I could think of that I thought could do the
job, basically, with the exception of Molly Beard,
who's been doing it for much longer than me and
set the last nationals I competed in, for example.
We didn't have her just because she achieved
so many events. We were trying to create opportunities
for more setters to come and have positions of
responsibility. And then we had a bunch of clinics
also from the first woman up and still continue
to do so to teach people. So besides Molly, the
only other women that I knew that. really could
do an event like that were invited for the first
one. And like I said, for the second one, it
was, we've got some more women that we'd met
that had been setting and some touchstone people.
And the third one, it was like half touchstone
employees and half other setters. And then the
fourth one was all touchstone employees, except
for Sarah Filler, who chiefed, and she'd done
the first three with us. She was interned the
first year and assisted the next year and then
chief the fourth year. And then now they do a
application process. because there's so many
interested parties. And so I was chief for three
years and then stepped away because I feel like,
again, like there's cool opportunities there.
It's a teaching event in many ways. And we wanted
people to progress through the steps of being
at the event and then being an assistant at the
event and then being like a. in a position of
more responsibility at the event and different
people getting to chief. Yeah. So, and then we,
again, like we teach clinics for the public and
for staff and I've seen, you know, some of those
people we've seen again, like being on the crew
even in the future. So yeah, in the US and Canada,
I was just speaking to another setter about this
last night. I think it's gotten way better for
female setting and non -binary setting. Like
it's just normalized. I think over here in Europe,
they're like trying. And there's some like pretty
active women, but still in the whole, it's like
behind or there's fewer still. It's not as normalized
and they would like to have more women, but they're
kind of struggling to find them. And I think
women don't feel as comfortable also getting
into the sport. And then there's a lot of attitude
of like, if you can't climb super hard, you shouldn't
be route setting. And I don't agree with that
because especially commercially, like you're
setting at a climbing gym, you don't need to.
climb part of the V6 necessarily. There need
to be a few people on the crew that do, but you
can split your labor up so nobody's doing way
too much of the work and you're getting a good
product because you need a good product for all
of the abilities of climber in your gym, not
just the strongest. Interesting. But you feel
like being able to climb V6 is kind of like something
you need in order to be a route center? No, not
necessarily. I should have picked a slightly
lower number. So if you look at a bell curve
for what you would want in a gym, you know, and
the majority of people come into the gym, you
have a really heavy concentration of use from
like V2 to V6, V4 to V6, because people are like
either warming up, climbing or projecting those
grades. You know, like if you're like climbing
V4, you're going to like warm up on V2 and then
you're going to like project V4 or, you know,
project V5 sometimes. I'm just picking a number.
And that's right in that belt, that like heavy
part of the curve. So yes, you need to have things
for your strongest climbers and things for people
to aspire to, and you need to have things for
your beginner climbers. But one thing that is
getting, again, improved, but it was hard for
a long time, some gyms have always been good
at it and a lot of gyms struggle with it, is
those lower level climbs. Because people are
coming into the gym and they want to try climbing,
and then what does that mean? They want to try
climbing and then ideally we give them a reason
to enjoy climbing and want to come back, which
means that they get to try something that makes
them inspired to try something else, to try something
harder, to try something harder and feel like
if they come back, they could do it. To feel
like they did something, like there's somewhere
to go, there's progression and it's intriguing
to get that progression. Versus like I said,
when I was a teenager, the first time I'd climbed,
I liked it, but then I thought I'd done climbing.
you know and then when I it wasn't until I went
back that I was like oh there's like a whole
world of infinite possibility here that I want
to explore yeah that makes sense and I guess
along the lines of um like women in setting one
of the audience questions that had come in was
um it's very cool that a woman is the route setting
director for PCL um what has your experience
been like in that role and how did you build
the route setting team ah um okay so The reason
we made a route setting director position in
the first place, which I think is important to
mention, is that originally when we did the test
events, I was the chief setter and I was so busy
trying to organize like the comps kind of complex
and kind of organize everything that it was clear
that it wasn't really appropriate to have me
expecting to like A, set things and B, D, like
the last voice of overview as to what was being
set. Like we needed a chief setter to keep an
eye on the range and the level and make sure
that like. the little details of the setting
were covered. And that if I was being pulled
away constantly to deal with everything else
related to the comp as well and integrating the
setting, that I couldn't do both well. So we
created a setting position and realized we needed
another headsetter. And so I didn't actually
set this event because I wasn't expecting to,
but I wanted a team that I felt could understand
the complexity of setting this event, which is
just like, you can ask them uh i can try to explain
it basically it seems simple but then when you're
like doing it you're like start to cross your
eyes because you're trying to think about like
okay how do we like plan you know the first couple
ones we set to we did like hidden holds that
we were revealed by removing a volume or covered
up with a volume or rotated the volume so there
was like kind of how do you morph the wall from
one pop to another efficiently and what you have
to have in mind to do that and so um So we created
a director position and then the setting team,
we went around a lot about what we needed the
setting team to be. So the first person that
was on the team was Matt Birch, who worked with
me at a couple of the test events in Colorado
that we did. And he's an English legend, been
climbing since the 80s, climbed V12 in the early
90s, climbed V14, put up the Swarm in Bishop
and was pretty famous in the early 2000s. kind
of a legendary strong climber and he's also been
a route setter for a long time used to work at
touchstone also um he lives in colorado now he's
the head setter at a gym called butt stone and
uh i just think matt's a really good setter i
like his style a lot he's like an old school
style setter he's very good at setting power
tension climbing and if you look at um his comp
his gym's comp every year has like colin duffy
and you know, Ben Hannon, like strong American
climbers come compete in this event. So he separates
these guys every year and broke Rabatou and,
you know, US team members. So I knew he could
do the level and I think he's a great setter.
So Matt was a yes for sure. And then we started
being like, all right, who else? You know, it
was kind of short notice. So some people's schedules
were busy also, but we were like, who would be
a good head setter to, you know, somebody that's
going to be able to listen to the information
from. Me and Matt and also the information from
Charlie and Danon, who are the founders of PCL,
because they had certain things they wanted to
see. So I had a video call with Sergio, who we
ended up choosing to be chief after he was recommended.
I talked through a little bit what we're doing
with him. I really liked his manner and his curiosity.
I think he was interested in trying something
new. He was open to the information we had for
him and the requirements that, you know, different
interested parties had for it. So we decided
to choose him to be the chief because I felt
that we could work with him. And then the other
two setters, well, the other three, we brought
in like in cooperation with him. So Maylis, who's
actually his partner, but she's also just a super
highly ranked female setter, one of the highest
ranked in the world, I think, and most respected.
And then Vojta from... prog who's a newer setter
like to me but he's been around a bit he does
a lot of different events a great kid and then
stefan scraperi who i remember setting for when
he was a competitor uh he was on the world team
he was strong then he might be stronger now he's
just like a monster uh he's just quiet even -tempered
italian guy who's a really good route setter
he's chief like he chief arco recently that did
a dual format so he had some experience with
that as well um Some setters are super fast and
he's one of them and he did a great job. So we
were really, um, happy with the team overall.
And we had like a few, like Matt was sick and
then Maylee's was sick. And, you know, there's
a few other things that happened. Uh, but overall
they did really well together. And I think, um,
took the brief that was offered to them by me
and by Charlie and Dan and by Sergio also taking
the information he had and sharing with them.
And then they just did their best to. really
think about what was going to happen with the
event and how it could go. And, you know, they
were super engaged the entire time with the changeover
and the changeover volunteers and trying to improve
that process. And they were super engaged with
the actual event. And since then, you know, we've
talked a bunch about what to do for the next
one, how to make it better. And so I think, you
know, I don't really care what anybody tells
you. route setting is educated guessing and you
get a calibrator in your head and if your calibrator
is good you do a little better job at that unless
you're really unlucky um but it's you use all
the tools you have at your disposal to do the
best job you can do in any given job and um you
know for me also like i'm not currently studying
that the highest for highest level athletes all
the time and i haven't been paying attention
to them so like i could not tell you right now
with any certainty at all if yanni can do this
or that but These guys have been setting events
that she's in regularly, so they're more on the
level of what can Yanni and Orion do? How do
we separate them? Where's Lucia at? Where's Jenny
at? How do we give those athletes a shot to push,
challenge these top athletes? And so we needed
to have a team that was familiar with those guys
as well. There's going to be a lot of information
coming at this person. As a longtime setter,
notoriously, we don't like a ton of too much
information because it makes it complicated to
do your job. So part of my job was trying to
protect the setting team from being overwhelmed
by the information, but also make sure they got
the correct information so they could do the
best job they could do. If we didn't tell them
enough about how this... format plays out it
wouldn't really be fair to them because they
were going to have to guess which they had ever
it's always educated guessing but they just weren't
going to have enough information to even try
to do a good job like they would try to do a
good job but it would be really hard if there
was something you just didn't tell them like
oh actually if you you know set a run across
at the first in the beginning of this thing like
we're not going to be able to score it and so
there'll be a lot of ties and like it'll be weird
or true like We can move the wall angles if you
need to to change the difficulty, so we want
to be planning for that. Or the way the seating
works. We need to tell them how the seating works
so they know which athletes they have so it's
not like the bottom four seats can't do anything
and only the top four seats can and it's super
boring. As it was, some of the women's climbs
got climbed a little fast, but it was partially
luck of the draw. Partially, the friction was
super good on the stage for some reason and it
should have been worse than the venue. Partially
some of the best climbers in the world who were
really motivated to win. And so I think like
if we'd seen a full World Cup field on the boulders,
they would have been perceived differently because
there would have been the spread people were
expecting. But when you have the two best in
the world, it's a very fine line for how to make
sure they can really do it or throw down on it
versus just getting completely shut down because
you've overshot versus, you know. And Oriane
stuck a move that Yanya didn't stick. And, you
know, the athletes for the athletes, this format's
new as well. So then the question is, should
she get back on and try to win? Like, could she?
Probably. Should she? Maybe. What does it look
like for her if she falls off again? What does
it look like if, you know, is it worth watching
Oriane to understand the best way to do the boulder?
Because Oriane might slip and then she can beat
her. So it's just. I think the athletes themselves
are going to have some strategy to consider for
this event. How did the experience compare to
setting other comps? Like, did you feel more
pressure setting for this than other comps? Or,
I mean, not you physically setting. Well, no,
the thing is I didn't because I wasn't setting.
I was kind of trying to balance, like, knowing
a lot about the format and making sure they had
the information and making sure they had all
the tools they needed. And, like, you know, we
were working in a... space that core generously
provided for us to work in but it was still like
their active workspace as well so it was definitely
a little different in terms of people having
to work around each other um it was pretty cold
for a few of the days so stuff like that like
there's going to be something like that at every
event you know that's just a little bit weird
um but yeah i tried to make sure the setters
were probably overly comfortable they're used
to a lot worse and for their part they tried
to you know keep a positive attitude um and just
like figure out a good way to get their job done
despite like video cameras and people measuring
things and people duplicating things and you
know people climbing on the wall people taking
graphic shots of the you know the walls and like
all the other things that were happening related
to this comp um Definitely different for them,
I think. OK, so then what all went into the thought
process for how to get good separation between
the athletes? Yeah, so this one was difficult.
So every test event we had a slightly different
experience with the athletes. And if the athletes
are really close in ability, it's easier, actually,
for the most part. When you have a bigger spread,
it's a little more difficult because you don't
want to have a bad show, which means you want
the like. less strong athletes to get somewhere
without the strongest athlete just having a field
day on everything. So like when Yania fell off
the first qualifier, everybody was like, yes.
And she did it immediately after, but she still
made a mistake. And I was like, I'm sure she
was annoyed, but it was definitely a good, better
show, you know, and Kamoa did the same on the
men's. He fell off the last move the first qualifier
twice. So the balance was like setting some moves
that are fun to watch without them being too
easy or too hard. And then setting some test
moves. enough test moves that you give the athletes
like basically they're trying to get progressive
difficulty on the climbs which is a way we used
to set a lot of comps like each move's kind of
harder than the last um modern comps aren't always
like that because of the zone scoring because
you can just make it hard to the zone and then
you can make it hard again after the zone but
it doesn't necessarily have to be progressively
difficult um and people also wanted a slightly
different style so we were trying to like reduce
the number of parkour moves that were done and
make sure it was asking the athletes to be flexibly
strong and, you know, low percentage. A good
example is like the men's semifinal, the yellow
boulder. It started off with like a jumpy move.
So a committee move to start that also got your
body like totally engaged. And then they had,
so they had to jump to a volume and catch it.
And then they had to climb up on the volume with
her whole body. And then they totally had to
change mode and get into this like very tense.
techie kind of climbing so it was the one with
all the yellow strips and they had to like a
stone and match and like turn and like you know
everybody was falling off it quite a bit um colin
fell off the last move i think max was the only
one that sent it actually but it was like a full
time limit super tense climbing um good separator
everybody had a chance but they weren't nobody
got to a point where they were just done Even
matching the finish, Max was very engaged. Again,
Colin fell off the finish. To me, that boulder
works the best to make a version of the style
that we're going for. Also, the men's red qualifier
with the big scoop, the big super shields and
the slopey scoops was very cool. But I also enjoyed,
yes, men's qualifier one, the blue one, was kind
of a race. With Toby and Mejji, it was definitely
a race. But it was also like... Very fun to watch.
Yeah, that one was good. The moves were obviously
hard. I mean, it started on two monos. Like,
they were stacking in some of them. But obviously
hard moves, just straight power. Got them engaged
right away. Committing finish move, doable. But,
like, Tomoa fell off it twice, and he's one of
the best in the world at everything. You know,
and he, it's just like there was challenge there,
which was fun to watch. Do you feel like the
setters managed to make it? set in a way so that
each move was harder than the last um no not
necessarily you start out with like a you start
out with a with a theory and a framework and
then you build what you build and you test it
and it is where it is that's kind of what i was
saying earlier but if you give them too many
instructions and you have to do exactly like
this it's too rigid and you could have a worse
product so you have to have like a certain amount
of testing and judgment that comes into it as
well so you have like Here are some ideas. Don't
make it too easy. Make it progressive. Make sure
there's multiple fall points. Try to give them
something that they can work towards. It can't
be too richy. It can't be too, you know, morpho.
We made them use, like, we let them mix brands,
but made them do one color per boulder because
that was the look that we wanted for the broadcast.
You know, we're discussing everything. Like,
okay, what are we going to do next time? Should
we do that? Should we do this other thing? I
don't want to give too much away, but we have
some ideas. But I think it did look really nice
on the screen to have like the two big red lines
next to each other. Yeah, I think like one of
the things I had thought, I know there was a
lot of complaints about it still ending up kind
of like a speed bouldering competition. So I
was thinking like, would it make sense to just
set the boulders extremely hard so that... making
it to each hold is considered an achievement
but then i guess you were talking about like
the seating and it needing to be like top seed
competitor would need to have like a good competition
still against like the lower seated competitor
so maybe that wouldn't work for that reason You
need the lower seed to be able to get somewhere
or it's boring to watch and they just give up.
And also the top seed doesn't have to like if
the lower seed can't do anything, the top seed
doesn't have to keep trying either. Yeah, exactly.
You know? Yeah. So I think like a lot of things
were said on podcasts by other people about this
event before it happened. And like everybody
can speculate till the cows come home about how
you could route set it the best. But again, I
know there have been some like it's everyone's
a critic. It's easy to be like, oh, I think the
women's finished finals are too easy. The person
that said they were too easy fell off the semi
several times. And then regardless of that, I
know what they mean. They wanted more separation.
Given their performance and the qualifiers, we
thought the final round was going to be okay.
It just suddenly everybody was a little more
on. It was a little bit cooler. They were a little
more psyched. I mean, we did the hardest. version
of those championship like this semi small and
big final we did the hardest version of them
that we had planned for with the wall being a
little steeper and the hold and the harder orientation
and blocked and it just didn't didn't matter
which I mean it was still cool like there was
some really hard rock climbing that happened
and because those climbers are such good athletes
and made it look really good people are like
oh it was too easy but those climbs were hard
we tested them extensively with some really strong
climbers One of the questions that come in, do
you think the setting for the women's side was
too easy? I think it's always hard with the women's
to have it properly calibrated. Part of my complaint
when I was studying more of these events is we
need more strong women and you need multiples
of us and you need to let us do this part. Not
that women can't set for men and men can't set
for women, but I think what's wrong with letting
some people specialize? Do I think it was too
easy? I mean, again, like if you ran, you know.
six or 20 girls through that climb it might have
actually been perfect for that field so was it
too easy for this format again like compared
to how they did on the qualifier you thought
it'd be appropriate quality one for example is
quite hard for them um quality two was good but
a little too fast But yeah, the setting team
thought like, OK, we'll make the harder tweaks
and we should be good. And so everybody was like
pretty surprised, like with the women's small
final, for example, the yellow boulder. The first
move is like some crimps and you're supposed
to hit a sloper and you basically just had to
paddle to this like in cut that was blocked.
And every tester had the same experience on it,
which was like it was quite hard to stick that
thing, especially not with both hands. And then,
man, Annie Sanders just went kung. like she could
have had a sandwich on it like it seems so much
stickier and that was just not like not only
was it um a bad sloper but it was actually sanded
a little bit to make it worse so yeah but we
were really worried about it being really hot
at the venue because another thing that'll happen
is stuff will test really well and then the venue
is way too hot and then nobody sticks to anything
and it looks terrible so we were worried about
the venue being too hot We did plan for it to
be hotter than where we were. And also the venue,
we actually, they had the doors open all day.
So it was quite cool in there. And they had the
AC on to try to make it cooler for the athletes.
And I think that the stage lighting wasn't as
hot as like from being on stage. It definitely
wasn't as hot as I remember previous stage lighting
I've been in front of being. So I think a lot
of elements kind of came together to make it
like pretty good conditions up there. and the
athletes were like with the exception of for
some reason the men's quality the red one where
they were just having trouble to start um everything
else they were doing a pretty job of sticking
to like a little better than expected and the
women's semi or yeah women's semi -final as well
the red one the first move was like some pockets
and you hit a sloper volume and then you had
to like shift out left and they were like really
comfortable in that slopey volume and that was
another one that was like people were really
struggling to stick to it in the test facility
so And it was cold in the test facility. Yeah.
Like, so I don't know. We're not entirely sure
what, why. There's theories. But, you know, it's
just the athletes, too, like, were psyched. And
they were in front of a big crowd. And there's
a lot of money on the line. So, you know, you
can account for that. But it's very common. I've
seen a lot of over, people are saying, oh, the
setting was undercooked for the women. And that's,
I would completely argue with that. Undercooked
suggests not enough effort was put in. it was
overcooked too much effort was put in maybe maybe
we needed to go a little easier um but also they
were good boulders and i think it was just like
a matter of luck to some degree and you could
get that the other way too and we want them to
be hard but if they're just way too hard it's
no fun to watch either so i'm glad the women
at least got to climb yeah you also mentioned
like sanding the holds down still which i think
i found interesting because I feel like there
could be a case where people are like, oh, you
sanded down the left side a little more than
the right side. And so that's why I couldn't
do it. So the thing that we did, because we were
very aware of that, is we had Ian Powell, my
partner, who's the, he's one of the, he's like,
he's the best whole japer in the world. He can
make anything. Like, he can make anything anybody
makes. He can make anything he makes. He is a
really... a big nerd about texture. And so the
way that fiberglass and vacuum thermoform macros
are made is that they're made and then they're
textured. So it's called post -texturing, which
means the texture is put on after. So every single
one is going to be a little bit unique, right?
So what he did was he used his, you know, he
felt them and he did a very specific like swipe
with the sandpaper with a certain pressure and
felt. And so he did like two swipes on that hold
and he wrote two swipes inside, you know, on
the foam. And we took a picture and he made sure
they felt the same. So he was like very, and
then we brushed them and we chopped them. And
we really tried hard to make sure that the climber
experience was going to be the same on both of
the holds. Because that was a huge concern and
that was part of the reason we didn't want to
modify them. But we felt strongly that that hold
could really use like a slight change. We made
it. And it's not uncommon at all for setters
to stand holds at comps. It's just usually one
copy. So it doesn't matter. Yeah. And you also
mentioned, I guess, like about the route setting
for the women that you think it could be nice
to have some routes that are specialized in setting
for women's versus men's comps. I guess, one,
why would that be helpful? And why is it like
so different setting for? men's versus women's
and I guess like why does it seem so much harder
to calibrate for the women's field? I think that
female climbers are less understood by the majority
of people setting these events. Please excuse
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liking, commenting, and sharing helps a great
deal as well. Back to the show. And if there's
a woman on the crew, it's usually one woman,
and so that's one voice in five. I think if you're
me, you just say what you think and you're perceived
as too loud about it or something. And other
women I know, some people that works for, I know
women on the World Cup circuit who are also loud
about it. I was just a little early, I think.
But also some women are quieter about it. And
then some women like it's nice to work for the
crew. Like that's part of the reason we did Woman
Up. We just wanted women to have the experience
of working with other women because. A lot of
times they realize they know a lot more than
they think they know because they aren't really
given a chance to like have their voice and also
see what happens with what they thought. So,
you know, and that's really important to calibrate
how good your judgment is, is to see what happens
when you get to try, you know, what you think
should happen and see like, oh, so like I am
the final word on a boulder problem where we
do what I wanted to do. And then I watch the
athletes on it. I can learn a ton from that.
And ideally you do that in your gym with climbers
every week. So you have a much better idea of
like how different people are going to perform
on the climb and you know, how it really is going
to work for different body types. And then you
understand more how to predict what could happen.
And I think like with a comp, especially this
one, they were just under so much pressure and
there was so much going on that like they put
a lot of time into the women's climbs as well.
But I think having almost two teams would be
cool. There's a team really focused on the women's
event and team really focused on the men's because
like PCL is here to promote like the women's
event was the last event of the night. Like they're
not trying to put the women in the background.
And I want to make sure that we're giving the
team enough resources to really, you know, address
both fields. But I think that they tried to and
I think they're experienced in doing so. And
like it could have gone completely differently
with just. the smallest of like changes in the
athletes or the heat or people's personal feelings
or yanya hitting a hole differently orian hitting
it differently or you know there's just like
you can't really second guess and people love
to and it's fine but like there isn't a person
in the world who's like if i had done that yeah
they can say now i would do it differently but
like there's not a person in the world that can
tell you exactly how it's going to go. Like I've
had, I've had boulders I've set where I'm like,
I know the field and I'm pretty sure it's going
to go like this and not like it. And it basically
does, but you, you also need to be careful as
a setter. Cause you know, I would never want
to set, well, I'm going to set it like this.
So only this person can win. So you have to really
be like, okay, I need to set it in a way where
the strongest, that strongest athlete of the
day is going to win. So if it's Alex Puccio today
and she climbs well, she will win. But if Nina
Williams is having a good day and Alex is having
a bad day, Nina could beat her. You know, and
this is years ago. But, you know, or some other
kid like that shows up to this women up comp
is really on. They're going to, you know, come
out here and give Brooke Rabatou a run for her
money. And that'll happen, which is cool. So
you want to make sure you're not like, especially
with climbing like Ianya, you know, you could
probably set moves. that only Yanya could do,
but then like, why is anybody bothered to be
there? You know? So it's, it's like extra hard
because you want to try to set something that
gives the athletes a chance to compete, which
actually we had because, you know, Orien beat
her and that wasn't something that, that was
something that she had the opportunity to do
if she climbed really well and she did, you know,
and that's awesome. I think that the setters
weren't predicting her to throw the heel and
be able to use it as effectively as she did.
But definitely, I think, like, you asked about
what's the benefit of having all women's teams.
Like, all women's teams, like, you're going to
expect the heel. There's probably men that expect
it, but, like, women especially are like, how
can I get weight off of my arms? Like, I'm going
to heel hook by my ear and pull it down to my,
like, where my ankle is, you know. I once saw
Megan Mascarenas when she was winning World Cups.
She was at one of our comps at the spot and she
had two slopers on like an overhang, like here
and here, like a bulgy overhang. She put a heel,
she like shifted her hand up, put her heel next
to that one, shifted her other hand up, put her
other heel on. So she was literally just like
both heels and both hands. And then she pulled
up, engaged her heels and like, it was crazy.
Like for women, if you give them a good foot,
I mean, when I was younger, I felt like this
too. If you give them a good foot, they can step
on it, pull it in and push it down and then go
anywhere off of it. And like part of the other
thing I think that happened with women's yellow,
women's small final is that the foot was a little
too good and they were too comfortable on it.
We needed to be a little more insecure. So we
gave them a good foot because the hand had been
so bad. because the hand was magically slumped
somehow better in the venue, the foot could have
been a little worse. You know, that's like the
kind of thing you'd say in retrospect. But before
the event, like they moved that foot like eight
times. Like it wasn't, you know, there was some
on the floor changes that happened. Very, like
we had pre -planned some things we could change
because we had to, because everything had to
be duplicated and marked and then went with the
harder version of it. And that happened. It's
just always. using, again, your best judgment.
And then like, here's another factor. Like the
athletes did a really intense seating round event
like the day before. So that comp was, looked
really hard and it was cool. And the question
is, are they going to be tired from that? Or
like specifically tired? Like what if that seating
round had like two boulders or even one that
had a crazy left shoulder move and it was hard
at the top. So they did it like eight times and
now like the entire women's field, their left
shoulder is just totally flagged, you know? and
we've set a left -shouldery thing, and now they
can't do it because they're just so tired from
the day before. It's possible. Stuff like that
can definitely happen. So there's all these factors
that you have to try to consider, predict, and
plan for, and then it's still like... I mean,
I don't know. I've been doing this for 28 years,
and some of it's just always luck. Are there
any other boulders from the comp that stood out
to you or you felt like you learned a lot from?
I think that the format, like on the surface,
you're like, oh, yeah, that'd be easy. And then
when you start thinking about it, you can, like
I said, get your brain pretty twisted up. And
then when you start setting it, you start to
understand more about it. So I think every event
we do of this, we're going to learn from and
be able to like really dial in how to be setting
for this event and planning for it and what we
should be doing. Like like some people, somebody's
like, oh, the walls are too small. And like the
walls were literally the largest walls we could
legally have that fit in the venue. Like we could
not have made the walls any bigger. And they
adjusted so we could change the angle. Didn't
have any huge volumes on them, but with the changeover
on the field, I don't really have much experience
with settings. So I guess what's the difficulty
with like having a huge volume and bringing it
around? Just like the heaviness or is there more
to it? It's just heavy. It's unwieldy. We're
on like rented ladders. The ladders were insecure.
There's people walking around the feet of them
and we wanted to have everybody be as... you
know, safe and appropriate work environment as
possible on stage. So like everybody has safety
glasses, everybody had, you know, the right equipment
to the job they were doing. And certainly if
we were going to do something like big like that,
we would need like a different kind of ladder
and we would need like multiple people on it
and no one else doing anything else. So you have
to slow down a little bit to be able to do that
in that area. So it's not undoable at all. It's
just another factor. Okay. We were trying to
do changeover in 10 minutes or less. How long
did it end up taking? I didn't time him for this,
but it was pretty close. But we did a lot of
rehearsals because the changeover team, besides
the setting team, had a couple of like key setters
come in, one from Italy and one from Singapore.
And then we had some people from London Climbing
Center and then the rest of the crew were from
City Bouldering partnered with PCL to provide
changeover crew. But I think a lot of them aren't
like day -to -day route setters. And they were
super like enthusiastic folks. They were great.
I think they do some wall maintenance work and
stuff. So they weren't unfamiliar with the situation,
but it definitely like, it was a big ask for
everybody to come in and like, they came up here
for a day and we spent a day doing like changeovers
because we had 11 boulder problems. So most walls
had three rotations and one wall had four and,
or two walls had four. And it was just like.
strip everything, put everything, you know, take
everything down, put everything up, take everything
down, put everything down. People had to know
where the holds went on the wall. They had to
know which holds were in the set so we didn't
lose things. We had to have somebody checking
to make sure all the attachment points were in
and no holds had been missed on each climb every
time. We were showing them how to put the screws
in the same hole. We actually used smaller screws
in testing to make sure that we didn't wear the
wall up too much because we were putting holes
exactly in the same place over and over again.
True. I didn't think about that. We probably
put these things on and off the wall three or
four or five times the first day, and then we
did rehearsals twice on the day of the event,
too, in the morning and the second session in
the afternoon. We used bigger screws on the day
of the event or for the event to make sure that
the attachments were secure. And we added a few
points on a few holds as well just to make sure
there was no wiggle for the athletes. How many
times can you screw the same thing into the same
hole before it gets... Yeah, it depends. If you
get perfectly in the right hole, if it goes in
the exactly right way, it's really strong. And
what's pretty good, I mean, it was just like
inch thick plywood. You could put stuff in and
out of it a bit, but... definitely like if you
overdo it you could shred a hole also and then
you have a shredded hole and you have to do something
about that so um and then we also had a special
camera called blocky that we were moving around
so like i was out on the stage for changeover
moving blocky and that was me and then the flow
from red bull was behind the wall and then we
would pass like the attachments back and forth
and i would like plug blocky into its new position
so we had like pre -placed blocky and mark blocky
on the wall mark blocky on the back of the wall
and then flow was climbing around back there
and i was you know juggling on the front end
trying not to get in the way that people stripping
and setting too much and um but there's some
really cool shots in the live feed from blocky
that you'll see like really up close on the climbers
and then what was the I guess if there was any
reasoning or thought behind not having like a
slab boulder. So we had like a five degree overhanging
wall, which we called the American slab. And
that was qualifier three, which didn't get used
in the end because we separated everybody in
the first two qualifiers. Yeah, it was actually
like we had planned to have a slab. And then,
you know, Dannon famously said to Yannick that
there would be no slab. Or Yannick said that
Dannon said there would be no slab. Which wasn't
a reason not to do it. But we did want Yannick
to be happy. No, we talked about it. And the
setting team wanted to try it without a slab.
And so we said, all right. That said, we had
had a slab in the previous iteration test events.
And it was usually qualifier three. And it was
a shared qualifier. So men and women on the same
climb. And it was very cool. There are some women
that feel like it's not really cool to use a
slab for the shared climb because like, of course,
women can climb slab. But it is cool because
you see you get these athletes like performing
differently on the same climb. And like slabs
cool because you have to hurry up, but not hurry
up too much. You'll fall off because that's how
slab climbing is. And so it actually is great
for this type of event. We've been discussing
that a lot as well for next iteration. Were you
bummed that you guys said the extra boulders
that never got touched? Oh, yeah, for sure. One
of those was another Matt Birch boulder. And
I think Matt's like a really interesting setter.
So I would have liked to see the athletes on
it. The yellow qualifier three. That was the
only one that didn't get touched. But yeah, and
actually the audience expressed that they were
bummed, too. It was like teasing them to show
them a boulder that no one climbed. And I was
bummed, too, because like one of the sponsors,
Absolute, their holds arrived super late. So
we put them on that boulder at the beginning
and end because everything was like done, basically.
But Absolute produced a lot of our. macros for
a bunch of the brands so we wanted to make sure
we included them so we got them on the wall just
a little late and they definitely stand out the
asteroids are like these cool like asteroid looking
things um and i think people wanted to climb
on them and see people climb on them and that
didn't didn't happen um and also i think that
boulder was going to be really fun to watch so
that was a shame for us and for the athletes
and for the the field i think the uh the spectators
but that's you know another thing like Basically,
all the feedback people have, we're interested
in it and we're definitely discussing because
on the whole, we're really happy with how everything
went. It was a super awesome event. It was visually
just so different to me. Being in the venue with
all the people and the professional production
that Red Bull did was just really cool to be
a part of. But there's always room for improvement
and certainly there's a lot of areas we can identify
that we want to tweak to just see what else we
can do also. Is there anything you wish the athletes
did differently on the boulders? Like you didn't
expect them to climb the way they did? I think
qualifiers went pretty well besides like it would
have been nice to. Yeah. OK, so here's something.
When I rewatched it, I noticed a lot of times
the first athlete that was like kind of ahead,
they like would make a mistake and fall off and
then they wouldn't get back on. And like maybe
they felt like they had no chance, but like I
think part of this event for athletes is going
to be figuring out like. it might be worth it
to get back on because A, you might have a chance.
And B, you getting on might stress the other
person out and create another chance for you
because they actually might fall off. So I think
the athletes learning how to compete best in
this format could be super interesting. And there's
a lot of room for that. And it may not be everybody's
cup of tea. And other people may really enjoy,
like one of the things I really enjoyed was the
athletes also talking even on the mat during
the boulder, like what they were going to do.
I thought that kind of camaraderie was like really
fun to see. Because, you know, if you're sessioning
with your friends, you watch your friends sometimes
beat you on a climb or you beat them on a climb,
but it's really fun still. It's fun for you to
talk about what to do together. It's fun to watch
them try. It's fun to think, oh, maybe I could
do it. It's fun to do it yourself. getting to
see that with the athletes like in the warm -up
zone and then later on the stage I think it was
a really neat part of PCL yeah I mean I guess
partially it could be that they needed to rest
after falling off but yeah I don't know like
how much pressure plays into the into the whole
thing as someone who wasn't up there. No, for
sure. And another pro climber is telling me is
she thought that part of the thing is that they
do need to rest. And if we made the climbs much
harder, we had to give them more time because
they need to rest more to have a chance. Because
like, why would they jump back on if they're
going to just flag themselves in the first few
moves and then not be able to even do the top
if they get there, which is true. So then does
the format support people watching them for six
or eight minutes instead of five? And them resting
on the stage, even if they're both resting. Do
people want to watch that? So there's a lot of
questions. Again, it's really easy to criticize
and go, oh, she's speed bouldering. But like
those climbs were hard and those athletes are
amazing. And like the fact that they were motivated
to race each other is, you know, it's always
going to be a little bit of a race if it's even
if it's every single move is impossible. Like
they're going to still be trying to beat each
other to the highest. move first you know um
i think that's okay like i don't it's not the
same speed climbing where it's the same route
over and over again it's like being able to adapt
to different movements and holds you've never
seen before some of which were on these climbs
and a short period of time is like shows a lot
of athletic skill and adaptability and i think
that's also really interesting to to test and
see happening i don't know how you would fix
that maybe you would need to like brief the athletes
beforehand that it's It sucks when they rest.
No, I mean, the thing is, like you said, like,
if it's hard, like, people want too many things.
Like, we want really good, really hard, extremely
difficult bouldering. We also want them to be
able to solve these climbs in four minutes. We
also want to see tops. We also don't want it
to be easy. So it's like, okay, if it's too hard,
there's just going to be a high point, which
is okay. Like, the men's final almost ended with
a high point, and that was okay. Or actually,
technically it did, because Max climbed the end
of it wrong, but it didn't matter because he'd
already won. But what do people actually want
to see? Yes, it's fun to watch people battle
it out on something really hard, but people still
like to see a top. They like to see somebody
swinging from something. They like to see Toby
and Meji both out sideways, flat out catching
something with their second hand. It's very cool.
I love what Max did, and I want to take away
from that, but I also wish Colin had stuck. men's
big final like twist move because he basically
did stick it but then when he was swinging back
instead of pushing more he went to reach over
and realized that was a bad idea and it was too
late you know and uh but that move was so cool
i mean his level of commitment like we have a
picture of him where he's like like feeder up
here kind of sideways and i just um i enjoy like
that level of athleticism because certainly when
i was especially when i was setting more for
for comps but um when i was climbing the best
i ever climbed People just weren't doing a whole
lot of that. You know, you'd occasionally do
a big move outside, but like it was not like
it is now. Like Colin's expected to land on his
back and he's fine with it, you know, and that
like we all grew up like you're not trying to
land on your back, you know, or anything else,
if you can help it. But, you know, the generation
before us, like they're getting both of their
hips and their knees and their ankles replaced
because they or the ankles probably aren't replaced,
but worked on because they fell on a piece of
carpet on the ground for years. Yeah. So we're
the crash pad generation, but it's still a little
different than the gym generation in terms of
like the mentality. So let's get into some of
the grab bag audience questions that came through.
Oh, sure. This is from Madeline Huang. How did
you know the climb was the right difficulty?
It seems harder to gauge than a World Cup. Yeah,
definitely. I think it's harder to gauge than
a World Cup because you have so many climbers
in the World Cup you can get away with a little
bit more because you're going to get such a rate.
You should get a bigger field of performance
from a bigger field of climbers. Yeah, so again,
it's educated guessing. And that sounds worse
than it is. You use all the skills and experience
you have to do your best to predict what performance
from a field would be on a certain move or climb
or series of moves. And based on that, you decide
this climb will be good or this climb is not
good. And if it's not good, you change it until
you think it will be good. Next one from Smore.
Do you think the format made the setting matter
more than a typical comp? I mean, yeah, probably.
It came down to two of the best climbers in the
world head -to -head in one boulder. The walls
were as big as they could be. We only had so
much sideways room per wall. The athletes are
amazing. walls we could have made the wall steeper
for sure and maybe we should have for the women
even steeper than it was um i really like you
know we we talked about and roman uh yanya's
coach suggested um you know a feel a format where
the wall actually gets steeper if they both flash
um or you know we also thought it was starting
steep and making it less steep if no one gets
anywhere like they would reclime it yeah same
boulder So like, it's like, say we do like a
minute or two minutes at 40 degrees and no one
gets anywhere. So then we move it back to 35,
you know, because that can make a huge difference.
Or we move it back one degree every minute. Or,
you know, there's like different ways we need
to test some versions of this. But the wall angle
change makes a huge difference. And it's like
pretty cool to experiment with. And the athlete
would have the benefit of learning the boulder
and then still having to do it under harder circumstances.
So you could have like a... flash battle almost
where you're like yeah okay you guys are gonna
flash this at 20 degrees but we're gonna keep
making it five degrees steeper every minute and
you have to keep beating the other person up
that kind of thing and maybe that's a different
format but we definitely um have thought about
different ways to modify difficulty how did you
end up deciding on like the um the degrees that
were used in the comp uh just from forerunning
like what great what angle we thought we wanted
to have the walls change which they actually
did between each problem but we weren't loud
enough about it so people couldn't always totally
tell i think um and we didn't do huge dramatic
wall changes like five degrees to 40 to negative
five to you know which we maybe would do next
time just to make it very obvious what's going
on because like the big change for the for the
athlete like you know it can make a big difference
the wall's a little less steep but we want the
audience to understand that that's happening
as well um but yeah we had a list of angles for
each round like an angle for each round and then
if there's a tweak angle what that was and it
was taped to the wall next to the wall controller
for each wall and we had the guys that our partners
that made the walls were there as well with their
programmer just in case and every part of the
reset was also moving the wall and it was moving
the wall after the set was done or before because
we couldn't be moving it while people were on
ladders in front of it okay Makes sense. This
one you might have touched on a little bit already,
but any chance we'd get mixed gender events,
how would that affect or constrain the setting?
Oh, yeah, I don't know. I think so. I think,
like, you know, Alex Puccio, who I mentioned
before, she, I watched her do moves Daniel Woods
couldn't do in the spot, like, more than once.
Like, she would climb with the strongest boys
and be able to do some stuff they couldn't do,
and they could do some stuff she couldn't do.
But certainly, Yania's, you know. And everybody
agrees, and Hershey does too, that she could
easily compete with the men. And there's other
athletes. I mean, Ori was amazing in this last
event. I think there's something to be said for
stylistic differences, catering to different
types of athletes. So putting the men on the
women's problems and then putting the women on
the men's or having them all on the same problems
might be a cool way to make sure that third boulder
is used also. Don't we talk about it? Maybe we'll
do it. Is that in talks for PCL? Or do you just
mean like in general? Everything's in talks for
PCL. Okay, gotcha. It's a pro climbing league.
It's not like the IFSC is great because they
have a really serious job, which is selecting
the Olympic athletes for our sport. When making
sure our sport is represented well in the Olympics.
We don't have that serious job. Our serious job
is trying to do something fun for people to watch
and for the athletes to compete in, which means
we can kind of do whatever. We don't have to
do it a certain way. They're independent. Like
it's a, it's a league, but they're also going
to be standalone events or like big events, you
know? And the idea is like, if you're in the
surfing league and you go to Portugal, you're
having a different experience than you have in
Tahiti. And people expect that. And with the
IFSC, it used to be, I think more regionally
different, but now it's like a little more like
kind of some of the same setters are traveling
around the world, setting these different events.
And so with PCL, like we probably will use setters
who've. done the event before and maybe we mix
the teams up sometimes but like you know but
it's still supposed to be a fun thing for them
as well because they have a little more room
to experiment because they're not setting an
ifsc event so they have a different format to
work in it's exciting to try things Yeah, that's
a cool way to think about it. Okay, this one
I thought was pretty interesting. Has there been
discussion to set with two different betas on
one problem where one is like a risky dynamic
beta and one is a hard static beta? So when I
was talking about setting for Colin when he was
a kid, we used to set to a boulder within a boulder
quite often. And then those events spot to be
at like Brooke Rabiteau and Sean Rabiteau and
like other strong kids at the time. And I always
enjoy doing that. So I can certainly see doing
that for an event like this. The biggest question
is making sure you do it well so you can have
like a reasonable scoring. So the judge and team
isn't just losing their mind trying to deal with
the scoring. Yeah. What would you have to do
in order to make that happen? Like, would you
need more wall space or? Yeah, you would just
need to. make sure that the options were like
relatively equal difficulty so like i might find
it easier one way and you might think it's easier
another way but like they're all both like relatively
hard in a similar way it's or like they're relatively
similar difficulty i would is what you want so
i mean the classic way to do it would be just
give them some totally nonsense trash like slab
move kind of jib things or like hard static move
jib things and then or you can dyno through it
but People are so good at dynoing, it feels like
cheating. So then maybe it's like it is a dyno,
but it's like a really hard stick or it's like
a dynamic move, but it's a hard stick. Or you
could go slow and steady kind of like if you
take like athletes from this event, like I would
think Annie Sanders would probably do the slow
static way and go quite strongly through that,
but maybe a little slower. And Yanni might just
jump. So you really want to know your field if
you are going to do something that specific because.
It seems like it'd be a lot easier to blow it.
But it totally would be doable. And it'd be interesting
to try. So maybe. One of the audience questions
that come in. Are setters typically more impressed
or annoyed by beta breaks like the ones that
Annie and Max did? I mean impressed. Wait, what
was Annie's beta break? I don't remember if she
had one specifically. She heel hooked at the
top of the women's final, but like, or in the
small final, but like, I mean, you could, it
was just hard. It wasn't like, like what Max
said was like, they did not think of that. No,
I think it's, I think setters are impressed because
I think setters fundamentally are nerds and enjoy
movement. And like, if someone does something
crazy, like we're just as psyched as everyone
else. Like if the beta break is that they're
just like dining through a complex sequence and
you're like, oh no, it ruins the boulder. Like
there's a video right now of. someone in a national
team selection who just dying instead of going
like left and back right they just dino straight
up that always sucks but it's also usually that's
pretty hard because like the setters usually
have thought of it and then been like no one
will do that it's too hard because like there's
some amount of like if somebody can do that they're
allowed to because it's so expensive to do that
you know so it's like that's okay and it's interesting
to see what people do and like again setters
are nerds it's fun to watch people learn um and
have ideas and like what they can do so i think
most setters are fundamentally like excited about
it still although peffling can be like very like
sad also if you you know if it ruins the comp
or you feel like it does but in the case of what
max did like it was just crazy and everybody
loved it so like you know you can't be that upset
like it was awesome like he did something extreme
and the amount of blood and skin left on the
volume he was hand jamming against just like
for shows yeah it is gross it's gross but it's
like cool like he really left it out there so
yeah yeah you mentioned um in the photo you had
a photo of like what was left over on the volumes
from his beta break yeah yeah i'll send it to
you it's just like a Because, you know, he was
jamming on the top of an Unleashed Terror against
like the blocks or the blue pill volume above
it. So the volume is the dual text, but the underside
of the volume is textured. And that's how he
was able to jam in there. And it was just like
a pretty crazy jam to make, honestly. And yeah,
he definitely bled all over it. Yeah, I'll throw
that photo up once I get it. Okay, last two quick.
Well, the first one was just, did you start setting
when you were five? Because you look nowhere
near old enough to have been setting for that
long. Oh, that's nice. No, yeah, totally. Totally.
Yeah. I was 16. Wow. I'm going to be 44 in like
April, beginning of April, which is when I started
climbing actually. And I started setting a few
months later, like six months later or something.
Yeah, that's kind of wild. Do you have any like...
idea of when you would want to stop no I mean
I love it I don't do it as much as I used to
at all because I used to set the gym every week
and you know now I set at kilter I set a lot
on the kilter board um I set in our spaces for
things I set like clinics and events sometimes
but I definitely don't set as much as I used
to and I do miss it I just I'm too busy it sucks
honestly like settings I love it but it is hard
on your body and When you're in your early 30s
as a setter, you're like, oh gosh, what do I
do next? Like, can I keep doing this? And like,
how? And so when I started setting, it was very
common to be able to set above your current climbing
ability. And I learned how to set above my climbing
ability. And I've climbed much harder outdoors
than I will climb inside because I just, I'm
an outdoor climber in my soul. But, you know,
working with forerunners and like spending a
lot of time studying movement, like I taught.
you know, climbing movement for quite a while.
And it lets you like have a calibrator that lets
you set, you know, harder than you can currently
climb for sure. And so there's like an old mentality
of like, okay, you can set much harder that you
can climb right now and you can be a really good
setter, which is completely true. The current
mentality is sort of like, you got to be like
strong enough to climb it or you just aren't
worth having on the team. And I think that's
a losing mentality overall. Cause I think you're
like, And donating the value of potentially very
good judgment and concepts from people and saying,
well, this other person is good enough and they're
like currently strong. Because the problem is
when you're too strong, you also can't evaluate
things very clearly because you're too strong.
So it's just going to be a constant. Like with
setting, I was talking with, like I said, another
setter, a really experienced setter I know last
night. You basically start setting and then it's
like this whole like mix of learning and being
overly confident and then learning some more
and then being confident and being stubborn and
learning some more. And then you kind of get
into this phase where you like have some like
some deserved confidence. Like, OK, I like pretty
much know what I'm doing. And people handle that
differently. And hopefully you also start mentoring
other people. But then you get to a phase where
you're like, oh, I don't know anything. Anything
could be possible. And I know more than like
those people who know much less than me, but
I don't like anything is like so many things
could be true here. So it's like this funny.
You do come out this other side of like this.
I don't know if it's not very Zen, but something
like that of just like there's infinite possibilities.
And like, I don't know. what the best answer
is. I know six ways to fix that. I don't know
which one we should do. I would prefer this one,
but I'm fine with your option too. And I'm also
fine with you, even if you've been setting for
five minutes, having a different solution than
me that could work. And that's just something
you get to because there's a lot of people that
are like, oh, I know everything about setting
or this is what you should do. I always know
what to do or I'm always right. You run into
people in that phase where you call it upsetting,
but people that have been doing it even longer
tend to get into this. Yeah, sure. Let's try
it. You know, let's see what's possible. Like,
let's see what's out there. I could learn something
I don't know from anybody. Yeah, I don't know.
It's just a really cool thing to be able to do.
And I hope to be able to continue doing it for,
you know, ever, basically. But I just not like
week to week in a climbing gym. Okay. And the
last one, totally different from the PCL stuff.
What do you think makes Kilter stand out? Oh,
what makes Kilter stand out? We are always trying
to do a bunch of new things. We have kind of
too many projects, but we just have a lot of
ideas for climbing. Ian's been in climbing since
the 80s. I've been in it since the late 90s.
We've done a lot of different things. We've both
been on the U .S. World Team at different points
in our careers. We've both been coaches. We've
both been setters. We've both been climbers outdoors
in all different kinds of areas. Our third partner,
Griffin, is underground one of the best boulders
in the world, or he has been. He's maybe not
currently because he's had a... few things pull
them away but you know like strong climbers know
about griff kind of thing um our team is like
pretty dedicated climbers and they have a wide
range of experience in the industry with setting
and climbing and competing and coaching and all
these things so we really um try to give people
opportunities to create like cool things we want
to see in climbing in the future and that's part
of what we did with pcl was just try to we wanted
to have a different kind of comp we met up with
dan and charlie they did too and so we worked
together with them on making it happen And I
think like we spend a lot of time trying to do
stuff like that. And then Ian always has crazy
ideas and like new ideas for products like the
adjustable walls and, you know, the way the kilter
board works and then like the complex blocking
holds and stuff that like takes a while for people
to get used to and want like sometimes. But it's
like they're awesome. He's always sort of misunderstood,
but like. He totally sees the future. He's not
wrong. The stuff that he makes is amazing. And
he's also an incredible sculptor. Like I said,
he can shape anything anybody else has shaped.
And he can also shape unique stuff no one's thought
of. And he is really good at making shapes that
are also comfortable, functional climbing holds.
Because you do see some artistic stuff out there
that's got some issues that make it not a great
climbing hold. Outdoors, you can get anything
because it's rock. But indoors, our responsibility,
I think, is to try to create a good experience
for the user, whatever that experience is supposed
to be. And certainly, you want it to be the intentional.
You don't want a hold to be super easy to misuse
and to injure people. You want holds to be good
tools for route setting, basically. And that
means they were designed with intention. And
they are designed. They're not just a product.
They're both. Yeah, I think it's interesting
what you said that you make products that people
don't realize that they want yet or ones that
takes a while to get used to. Yeah, I guess the
first thing that comes to mind there is like
no -tax holds or some of like the crazy moves
that they come out with during some World Cups
that just end up getting used over and over after
a while. People like need to learn them. I think
the biggest issue with holds, like especially
with comp setting is setters have like a limited
time to do this pretty complex job and they're
nervous about it to some degree. And so they
tend to fall back on holds. They really know
because they think, oh, I know how this is holds
going to go. But what happens then is you see
the same holds over and over in events. And it's
not that they're necessarily the best holds.
Some of them are great holds. Some of them are
whatever. But they're holds the setters are familiar
with. What do you need to do? You need the setters
to get familiar with more holds. But they have
to have the opportunity to do that. If they're
flying around, you know, all over the world all
the time, like, they don't have time to sit at
their gym and nerd out on a set of complex holds
or, you know, the newest whatever. Like, I think
Ian's definitely misunderstood in some ways.
There's also a lot of people that really appreciate
what we're doing, which we really appreciate.
But, like, you know, Laurent from Cheetah, like...
arguably less misunderstood than we are, but
he still comes out with stuff that people just
don't get. And so they just don't use it properly.
And I think even, you know, he and other, these
artists shapers are like, they're committed to
what they're doing. And I think it is a little
hard on them. You know, Peter Jewell with Urban
Plastics, who's another brand that we actually
own now, but he's a great shaper and he made
a new series, Multitech Stone. They're awesome.
They're different. And it's going to take people
for like a little while to get used to them.
Two color holds, you know, it's been done a little
bit successfully, but like it's protested against.
But now you're seeing it more and more again.
Not like you're you're up with two colors of
like resin, but like two color macros, you know,
white macro with a red patch or whatever. It's
just about like people, people getting used to
stuff. And then there's a different kind of person
that sees something once and they want to try
it immediately and figure it out. And I think
the Internet's really helped route setting levels
go up across the world because there's so much
accessibility to what other people are doing
that you can try it. You can see that move in
a World Cup or on a video somebody released from
their home gym and be like, that's sick. I want
to try to do it. And I want to try to do it differently
and better. And what if I did it like this? And
so like. ideas that used to take a long time
to circulate and really went around only if there
was a traveling setter are going around like
wildfire. Yeah. What is like an underrated hold
that you think people will get into or should
get into? I mean, the complex series, we stopped
talking about it for a while because we just
kind of got tired of people not like understanding
it. Some people understand it, but like a lot
of people are just kind of like, oh, I don't
know. Like it seems difficult. But then meanwhile,
they're screwing eight jibs together. And like
to me. screwing a bunch of jibs together for
a comp isn't really appropriate because if it
breaks you can't replace it and also they're
not really meant to be used like that so it's
like not a good product complex hold is a hold
that's meant to be like block about our holds
like the hold maybe has an angle we use like
major like 20 30 40 degrees like common angles
that you might find in the gym and there's blocker
holds that are meant to push against it but also
like you can move them and they create a different
grip on the hold so the hold like maybe it's
a jug and then all of a sudden now there's only
this little area available or you can only grab
the lip or now it's a crimp over here so you
can like change the experience of the climber
and like yes you can modify stuff to block it
setters like doing that but you also could use
products that are designed with like the setter
in mind like there's all these different blockers
you can use they fit with all these different
holds it's not difficult they also work great
on volumes it's like just little holds or feet
that you can create like an infinite number of
possibilities with these tools and like we also
made a wall where we block like yellow holds
with red holds and green holds and then it's
like you could climb the red line or the yellow
line and have like a really kind of tight spray
wall and that was really cool so there's just
like there's a lot more experimenting to do and
i think the only downside to the media trend
thing with setting is people get sucked into
experimenting with the trend they already see
and they stop like coming up with new trends
kind of or like People overdo it. They get a
little too indulgent with trying something they
saw at a World Cup and then they don't do enough.
Like, I don't know. Like, I always loved how
creative you could be as a setter. And our team
was creative at the spot. We came up with all
kinds of cool stuff. And I think that's one of
the things that's really fun about setting. So
I hope that other setting teams are continuing.
And I see some of it online, but I just hope
people continue to have that sense of like, I
don't know if it's whimsy or experimentation
or just like. joy around what's possible. Like
we're basically playing with adult Legos, you
know? And so like to be fun. Yeah. I will link
these so people know what you're talking about.
Okay. Well, I think that's all the questions
I had then. Thanks for joining. Is there anything
else you want to shout out or is there any like
last minute words of wisdom that you have out
there that you want to get out? I mean, a huge
thanks to everybody involved with PCL organization,
the broadcasting, the volunteers, the setting
team. The support teams, like, just, it was a
massive undertaking. And, like, we drove, I can't
explain enough. We drove everything from, we
took it down in Sheffield, drove it in trucks
to London, set it up, ran the event, took it
down in a matter of, like, 30 hours. Like, it's
crazy. I think we had 35 hours we were in the
bench, supposed to be in the venue, and I think
we ran it for 40, actually, maybe. Is that right?
Anyway, it was no sleep in any of that. No, I
was awake for 25 hours on the day of the event.
Oh, geez. But it was cool. And everybody worked
really hard. And it was just really cool to have
everybody work together and create like something
that was I was standing on the stage when the
doors open, like not on purpose. I was like messing
with the camera or something. And all of a sudden
there was just screaming, running people towards
the bar at the front of the stage. And it was
just such a cool experience. Like I've never.
been in a band or anything where that's been
a thing so i was just like it was like that was
when i was like oh my god like this is happening
you know um so yeah it was super cool um so thanks
everybody for coming and for watching it and
thanks to red bull for supporting it and everybody
at pcl and like everybody else who contributed
there was just too many people to name it's so
many people that we needed to make it work and
we really appreciate all of them yeah Sound really
cool. I kind of wish I had gone now. I'll have
to try to make it to the next one. Have FOMO.
It's going to be sick. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Want
to let people know where they can find you? Oh,
I mean, setacloset .com is Kilter's site. And
we have our walls on there, too, for people that
are interested in those walls. Oh, wait. I should
say this. We are working to make. Like those
boulders, we saved the duplication sheets so
we actually can reset them in our space. And
we're working on a way to make it easier for
people to duplicate them. So if you have a similar
wall angle, like a big flat plane, or if you
get one of these adjustable slabs that we make,
slab to 40 degrees overhanging, you can reset
the exact client from PCL if you want, which
is really cool. And we're working on more of
that in the future. So it's very easy for people
that buy a wall like this or have another wall
they can adapt to actually give their... gym
community a chance to climb these same climbs.
Oh, okay. I'd be pretty interested in that. Are
you guys going to be setting that up in the Kilter
warehouse? Yeah, so we're getting a new space.
We had a space in Frederick, Colorado, which
is near Boulder, but we're just going to get
a different space a little closer to our warehouse
and have our walls set up again so we can be
doing that there. Yeah, and then we're just going
to work in different technology to try to make
it easier for people to actually do the duplication.
because the other cool thing is like if you're
in a place where there isn't a lot of route setting
like mentorship or other people to work with
something like this is very cool because then
you can set these climbs into your gym and then
experiment with them and like learn basically
by doing that which is a nice way to like even
though it's there's no person there explaining
it to you you can definitely get some like remote
mentorship in that way which i think is cool
well i would love to try it out so if i find
anywhere that's setting it i would love to get
on it yeah yeah it should be cool so yeah so
just Our website is settercloset .com. It's Kilter
Urban Plastics. We distribute a few other brands
in the U .S. as well. But PCLproclimbingleague
.com. And then we're all on Instagram. Oh, and
we have a YouTube, too, actually. Kilter has
a YouTube. Oh, wait. Yeah, I think I have seen
some videos. Yeah, we do setting sessions. So
I guess the last call I want to make is if you're
a route setter and you're coming through Colorado,
hit us up because we'd love to do a setter session
with you at the studio. and then setters who
skip to come use like some of our newest stuff
and set whatever they feel like and we make a
little video about it and it's pretty fun just
like a fun day for everybody so awesome i will
link all of that below there's a lot but uh yeah
there's a lot of good info Yeah, sorry. There's
a lot. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you again. And
it was amazing to talk to you. Yeah. Thank you
so much. Thank you so much for making it to the
end of the podcast. Don't forget to like and
subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you are
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on the free competition climbing discord linked
in the description. Thanks again for listening.