I've had someone throw up on me before from nerves.
People thinking that I knew what I was doing
was a challenge, or at least it still feels like
a challenge. I think even now I've coached Erin
to a pretty high level and I don't have a queue
of other athletes at the door that are like,
I have to work with you because you coach so
well. It always feels like I've kind of been
brushed off as not being that involved. Somebody
questioned the fact that there was all -male
coaches going to it. and the response that they
got is there's no female coaches functioning
at the level but when we're trying to do trainings
and stuff we'll always make sure that there's
at least one day of a training where it's just
brutal and people get shut down welcome to another
episode of the that's not real climbing podcast
i'm your host Jinni and i'm excited to introduce
my guest for today Rachel Carr Rachel is a Team
GB coach and also Erin McNeice's personal coach.
She started as an athlete and competed in youth
worlds, but moved down the coaching path shortly
after. In this episode, we'll talk about performance
anxiety as an athlete, the difficulties she faced
being taken seriously as a young female coach,
and we'll get insight into Team GB's training
as well as Erin's insanely huge team of coaches.
I hope you enjoy this episode with Rachel. Thank
you. Please pardon this brief intermission, but
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Now, back to the show. How are you doing today?
Yeah, good. Had a kind of busy day, but managed
to just get a climb in just now, so I'm feeling
pretty chilled. You don't get much time to climb
for yourself. Like, this time of year we get
a fair bit, I guess, because... like the athletes
are at the wall so if I'm training the athletes
sometimes I can stay afterwards but it's like
such a busy period just now like I'm going away
next week and we've got British boulder champs
this weekend so I'm not going to get to climb
Saturday or Sunday um so it's like my last day
because I'm super busy tomorrow so it's sometimes
it's really inconsistent but sometimes we actually
have loads of time it's just getting the consistency
across multiple weeks is the challenge Yeah,
that's kind of the important part of making improvements
with climbing. Do you have to like prepare anything
for the British bouldering champs? No, we kind
of, so we have our events team, which is Zoe,
who I think you've actually done an episode with.
So she, because it's like a BMC run event, it's
the national champs, like selection is only a
small part of it. So she kind of organizes all
of that. And then my part is I just show up on
a coach on the day. But it's kind of like. even
my role there is just in case anybody needs me
or like helping run the day a little bit because
I don't actually have really any athletes that
need me anymore they either all work as other
people as well so they can get coached by them
um or they don't need my help really okay so
that'll be kind of chill just like a fun event
for you to watch I mean it's a long day it's
like 9am till 9pm on Saturday I think so a lot
of time in a bouldering wall because we'll have
to stay to help it with everything and like be
there from the start right up until it's finished
So it'll probably be quite tiring, but I might
be doing very little the whole day. You mentioned
that you don't have too many athletes that you're
coaching for anymore? Yeah, it's kind of the
way that this setup works. Because I'm full -time
with GB, I basically only coach GB athletes.
I have one or two that I'll write training plans
for or I'll do what I used to do some sessions
with, but I'm so busy now that I don't have time
to do sessions with them because I'm so involved
in the GB side of things. I coach like a couple
of people that are in the program like in receipt
of funding but a lot of them have other coaches
so they don't actually like need my help or they
just don't want it for whatever reason they work
with other people because there's Liam that's
there as well so I mainly just coach Erin and
then I do some sessions with like Emma Everards
and then I do like team trainings with people
but in terms of like on a weekly basis it's pretty
limited I do a lot of like the behind the scenes
stuff as part of my time okay so I guess for
those who don't um know your backstory super
well how did you get into climbing and then competing
and then coaching um so I was a gymnast first
I did gymnastics from like a young age but my
mom's friend was really into adventure sports
she did like paragliding and stuff and she took
me climbing I think it was either for the first
time or the second time because I'd done one
of those like temporary walls that they had in
like car parks I don't know if you've ever done
that um but yeah wait did you do paragliding
yeah she might like she was really into all of
that extreme sportsy stuff yeah and the thing
that she introduced me to I never got to do paragliding
maybe I would have gotten to that um but yeah
she took me climbing and because of gymnastics
I was quite good at it straight away so got really
psyched on it and was like oh I want to do this
this is way more fun it's way less like rigid
you don't have to be absolutely perfect you can
just do it your way so then i it's good gymnastics
pretty quick and i think it was like within the
first year maybe i was like british champ or
like shortly after having climbed for a year
um it wasn't that many people competing at the
time um and then was on the team like a year
and a half after starting and competed until
i was 19 on the youth circuit i did like i competed
in lead boulder and speed technically but Not
to any successful level in any of them, definitely
not in speed. Why did you decide to stop competing?
And how did you know it was time for you to move
on to something else? I guess I was kind of lucky
in that I wasn't good enough to transition to
senior. So it was kind of decided for me. But
I didn't realize I hadn't made the senior team.
And I had the conversation with the coach, like,
I don't think I want to keep competing because
I just had loads of performance anxiety. It wasn't
really understood at that time. Nobody turned
around and said it was performance anxiety. It
was only years later that I was like, oh, that's
why I felt so miserable all the time. I felt
like I was always underperforming in competitions,
which I think a lot of athletes do. But the anxiety
that I feel now felt very similar to what I was
feeling every day at a competition and when I
was on the mat. constantly like in my own head
and thinking so many negative things I couldn't
just get past it and like try hard on the boulders
and it got to the point where I would finish
a round and I wouldn't want to look at the results
because I'd be like oh I actually think I climbed
quite well there I'm really happy with that and
then somebody else would come up and be like
oh congrats you finished here and then I would
just like spiral even though it would be a pretty
okay result nothing terrible I would just like
completely spiral and feel horrible afterwards
and I was like I don't think this is worth it
anymore. Interesting. I actually never heard
that perspective before of like, yeah, what performance
anxiety feels like. Now, as a coach, if you're
thinking back about like what you would tell
yourself at that time, is there anything you
would have said to like help make it feel better?
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of what's helped me in
my coaching. I can actually empathize a lot more
with most athletes because I think a lot of athletes
do experience performance anxiety. It's so rare
that people actually don't ever. have any of
this at all because of course you're putting
yourself out there you're like on a stage you
have to perform consistently your results do
matter because you are competing but it's how
they matter and what they mean to you and I think
the things that I would look back on now and
I just wish that somebody had said here's where
you really are like here's where you actually
compare and how you should do because I always
had this idea in my head of like being on the
British team we were like a really small team
we weren't expected to do really well. And then
I would go out on the mat thinking, oh, if I
can just do one boulder, that's quite good. But
then other people would obviously do a lot more
boulders or it would be very varied. And one
or two athletes would perform really well, but
the rest of us would be in the midfield. And
it was this battle in my head of, we're a small
nation. There's a few outliers talented, but
generally we're not that good. Whereas if somebody
had actually said to me, no, you're actually
really good. We've picked you to go to these
competitions because we think you can make a
final and make a podium. So you have to aim for
that. Then I might have actually gone out and
believed that I could do that. Whereas I don't
remember at any point thinking I can definitely
make a final. I remember being disappointed when
I didn't, but never actually believing that I
could be in a final or be on a podium. Well,
maybe this is like my bad mentality, but sometimes
I'm just like, okay, I should just be like realistic.
And maybe I'm like not really that good and it's
fine. And that would like help me mentally. I
mean, I was definitely the same. I was like,
if I expect the worst and it goes well amazing
and if it goes bad I expected it so I'm not going
to be disappointed right I was always disappointed
it didn't matter I was if anything more disappointed
because it was like I was trying to trick myself
into not expecting it and then just like in the
back of my head I'd be like oh but today's probably
going to be the day where like I'll I'll win
right no never because I was never thinking that
I could do it there was never that like outlying
belief it was hope it wasn't like determination
that actually was pushing me to try harder as
much as i felt like i was trying really hard
like if i didn't have the belief behind it how
hard can i really be trying so you have to like
yes there's some like there's some reality in
it and it's the same with athletes now if i if
i don't think that an athlete can at least get
close to a final i'm not going to sit there and
be like you're going to definitely make this
final i'll have like a pretty constructive conversation
with them about like what they should be aiming
for and what they're capable of what they need
to do to get there as well it's not just you
can do it or you can't do it but I often try
and say to other people and like it might have
been helpful to me if somebody was saying like
you struggle on these ones okay so just focus
on this one thing and if you can do that then
you can get this and then we'll get this one
out of the way and you probably need to do xyz
and that might get you this and if you can't
do that that's okay we can go away and we can
work on this and bring it back and it's more
constructive it's more like tactical in the approach
which I could have had that from coaches it just
didn't it was never said in a way that stuck
with me so I was always just like oh I'm talented
but not good enough and I can do some boulders
but I just can't do these ones and it was little
things like when I would approach a downer I'd
be looking at the mat rather than looking at
the hold because I was like already thinking
I wasn't going to do it like I don't know what
I needed to be told in that moment but I wasn't
being told it because I couldn't do it so. Okay.
Now that's an interesting perspective because
I have like a coach that I like sometimes work
with and he'll say things about like what I could
do. And I'm like, I think you're lying to me.
I don't feel like I could do that. And I think
you're just trying to say things so that I feel
like I can do it when you know I can't do it.
So it's interesting to hear you say that you
wouldn't lie to an athlete about what they could
do at least. Yeah, I mean, I'm also quite optimistic
as well. So if I, I would never lie to them,
but I know what the coaches might be like, but
they've got no chance of doing that. So I'll
just not say it. I don't think any coach would
be like, you can't make a seven final World Cup.
I think they would just say, just keep trying.
Maybe next time I keep going. Whereas I'm always.
the optimistic one in our team where if we're
predicting results for next year i'll be like
oh yeah i think this athlete can make a final
consistently easily yeah they've got they've
done this this year they'll definitely do it
next year and people are like are you sure but
like so far touch wood i've been fairly right
um and like i'm a firm believer that if you don't
actively like be positive to people then it's
really hard for them to be positive to themselves
like in the uk especially everybody's a bit too
real all the time they're a bit too negative
nobody wants to like run away with themselves
and get excited and just be really like happy
about everything because they're like oh it's
not a happy calm down so I try and just say like
a nice thing like a compliment or like pull out
all the positive stuff some people have like
said that I'm like toxically positive before
because I'm not realistic I don't call stuff
out but then it's equally if you were to ask
Erin for example like she's joked about the fact
that I'm just mean so it's like it depends on
the context I'll try and if they've had a bad
performance really draw on the positives because
there's always positives to draw on it but then
if there needs to be a harsh conversation I'll
have that harsh conversation at the same time
so it's like I try to get that balance so that
they know if I'm saying something I do genuinely
believe that that can be a possibility like if
Erin's there like oh I can't possibly do this
boulder and I don't think she can I'm like okay
well let's focus on how we get you as far up
as possible that's not saying you're going to
do the boulder but maybe if you work on it you
might break it down whereas if she can do it
i'll be like are you joking obviously that one's
easy for you like just just go and get on with
it which is like maybe a bit mean to say it like
that it's like positive it's really it's hard
to read a lot of the time but it's hopefully
genuine a lot okay good to know um so yeah we
got derailed a bit but after you stopped competing
yourself um how did you get into the coaching
side So I kind of mentored younger athletes when
I was still competing. So I think when I was
16, there was like a local charity club that
would go climbing. And my mom was basically like,
come and help out, come and do some coaching
or mentoring as a younger athlete. So I started
it in that sense. And then was main team captain
on my last year in the boulder team, which was
basically like one of the older kids looking
after younger kids. But in that, I kind of was
coaching. like I would say it was definitely
coaching now based on what I remember doing feedback
wise and I remember some of the younger athletes
were like crying and I was comforting them would
be like go on try the boulder again and that
that to me is coaching um and it just kind of
like carried on that way I started working with
a couple younger athletes and coaching them at
like local competitions and then in like 2017
I think I'd been out of the team for like a year
and a half I got asked to come in I guess it
was chaperoning youth worlds um but I was I felt
like I was doing the role that I'm doing now
in that sense. I was kind of coming back as a
coach and got loads of really good feedback from
the athletes where they were like, oh, that was
great. Can we get her back again? And then got
various roles that pushed me up from like youth
team coach for like Scotland to then British
team to then where I am now, basically. And do
you also coach like the speed team or is that
a totally different person? We kind of don't
have a speed team coach. I definitely don't.
coached them I have supported them at competitions
I would never try and claim that I have coached
them because they've got as far as they have
on their own there's some really impressive like
what they do but I have supported them at competitions
and I technically did coach a speed team like
a local speed team when I was like 19 but I'm
definitely not a speed coach I don't know how
to do that it's very different yeah with my skillset
One of the Instagram questions that also come
through kind of related to this from Lucky Penguin
3. What's the difference between coaching the
youth team versus the senior team? Well, coaching
the youth team is kind of early development stages.
So you have a lot of athletes, a lot of different
ages, but also a lot of different stages and
where they are at. So some of them might be really
self -sufficient in a lot of ways already and
have a really good understanding of what they
need to do to perform. And you can kind of just
leave them to it, be there if they need you.
But a lot of the time, you're getting athletes
that don't know how to warm up, don't know how
to fuel for the session, don't know how to read
boulders, are stressed a lot. There's a lot more
tears and youth. I've had someone throw up on
me before from nerves. Wait, oh my God. Was this
like during a competition? Yeah, I'd feel for
her because she got really stressed. And I was...
i wasn't like 100 % believing her so it's my
fault because i was like no no you're fine you're
fine you're gonna just go it'll be all right
oh you've thrown up on me not on me but like
very close to me and i had to clean it up like
mid -competition um and then she went out and
she like did really well on the route and came
back and was like okay i feel better now i was
like how did you do that that was insane um it
only happened once though but like there's there's
obviously a lot of stress and it's exactly what
i remember from competing so again i have a lot
of empathy for them i have a lot of time for
them i'll sit with them while they cry but sometimes
it's like a harsh word sometimes it's just supportive
so you're doing a lot of like emotional management
but also kind of like herding cats and that you
have to just check that everybody's like actually
started growing up at the right time that they
know what boulders are on that they have actually
paid attention to like what sequence they're
going to do for like the european format because
it's that like flash format rather than on -site
and it's a lot of like also hanging out with
them entertaining them you have to take them
around for like five days so i found youth comps
exhausting like super super tiring um but it's
obviously good training and then when you get
to seniors in theory they've already had all
that support and that learning so they should
come to us and know their warm -up a bit better
but obviously there's always things where you
have to be like oh i think you should add this
to your warm -up or stop doing this or maybe
you should do this um or we're just like setting
orders for them or sometimes it's just reminding
them what time it is there's one athlete that
my only job for them is to tell them what time
it is constantly and just check where they're
at give them updates bring good vibes play cards
whatever it's very like they are very much more
autonomous with it and we're adapting to the
athlete needs whereas like the youth team you
kind of have to be really proactive and assume
that they don't know anything so that you can
come in and just check that they do actually
nothing Yeah, actually, I'm now realizing it
seems like actually a lot more work to do youth
than senior. Yeah, I remember my first World
Cup, like I was obviously very scared because
I was out front doing like the appeals and the
filming on my own. So I was like, OK, if I mess
this up, there's no one else here to to help
me. And at the end of the day, they were like,
oh, how was your first senior? I was like, oh,
so much easier, so much easier than a youth comp.
This is so chill. And they were like, what? Really?
I was like, yeah, God, I don't have to like,
nobody's cried. It's great. True. Yeah, so I
guess the appeals process didn't stress you out?
I know some coaches are very intense about their
athletes and putting in appeals. Do you feel
like that's your vibe? I flip between. I find
it's quite fun. I think because I competed myself
and I've never really left competitions, my understanding
of the rules was pretty in -depth anyway. I didn't
really have to... go through and like study the
rules and memorize the numbers or anything I
kind of just instinctively knew what was a rule
and what wasn't and like I remember in the first
comp that somebody topped and they didn't talk
properly or they topped out of the time or something
and I straight away just with total confidence
wrote the appeal and handed it in and was like
yeah great fine no questions like wasn't stressed
and I was pretty comfortable that I could go
up and I I kind of had a card to play if I was
a young coach So I would just go, oh, can I just
check what this is? I'm just not really sure.
And I wasn't, so it was accurate. But then it
would be a case of like, oh, no, let me check
it or let me do this. And then I'll have to put
an actual appeal in or something. So it can be
like a tactful game, but generally it's viewed
from my perspective anyway. You're just trying
to actually make the competition fair because
judges do make mistakes. We've seen some competitions
like Madrid where the judges were very inexperienced.
So there was a huge number of appeals that went
in, but all of them got passed because actually
it was just bad judging. So generally, that's
the position that our coaches are coming from.
But of course, when you're in a finals position
or a podium or semifinals and you're trying to
get your athlete through to the finals and you
see something that's like, oh, that could definitely
be taken away from them. I'm not sure that's
100%. Get a bit competitive then and be like,
oh, I'm going to go and get this one. And you
also mentioned that you were like quite a young
coach, I guess, when you first started. How old
were you at the time? Oh, my God. Well, for seniors
anyway, I was 24, I think. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's
like the same age as a lot of the competitors.
Yeah, so I was younger than... I think all of
the athletes on the team were two at the first
competition that I went to. I think there was
like, was there 10 athletes? There was maybe
10 athletes and only two of them were younger
than me. So that was maybe three, but it was
a very small number. There was a huge amount
that were older than me and most of them I'd
competed with when I was younger and they'd been
more successful than me because they'd made it
to seniors and World Cups and I'd dropped out.
So it was an interesting dynamic to sort of manage
initially. I guess like how do you command respect
as a coach when you're coaching people who are
like older than you or had like better results
than you? I guess I was not in any way striving
for respect. I was kind of just, I knew that
I was never going to be able to come in and be
this coach where I was like, I know more than
you, you have to listen to me because I've done
this for however many years. I didn't have that.
And I didn't really want to take that angle anyway
because I wasn't totally sure what I knew at
that point. had coached a few athletes to a pretty
high level of youth but I'd never coached an
athlete to senior so I was never going to come
in and assume that I knew how to make a world
cup successful athlete at that point and my main
aim was just to provide the support of the competitions
that like their coaches couldn't provide because
it's very rare that private coaches can go out
to all of the world cups and attend all of those
so in my in my head i was just being a team coach
and supporting and that was slightly different
i we did some like debriefs at the end of it
where i would sort of say like hey i spotted
this when you were climbing you might want to
try and do this next time what do you think about
that and so we're like no i'd be like yeah you're
probably right okay great like i'll stop um but
that was like the absolute extent of the coaching
that i was doing for those athletes at the time
it was only later on that i started actually
coaching senior athletes and actually moved into
that space and now I would kind of feed back
a bit more but even then I don't think I like
command respect from anybody I think I want them
to respect my knowledge understanding but if
somebody doesn't want my opinion I'm never going
to force it on them because I don't 100 % know
that I'm right I don't think anybody does know
100 % that they're right so it's kind of just
here's some ideas I've had if you're interested
in them go away and explore them And if you want
some stuff that I might think will help, then
come back to me. And if not, then carry on. I
didn't mean to say like command respect as in
like you are trying to, I don't know, be like
an authoritarian figure. But I guess I would
think that like having a coach and being a coach,
they would need to like trust you in some way
to be able to help them improve. Otherwise, it
just like doesn't really work in that way. Yeah,
I mean, people. like thinking that I knew what
I was doing was a challenge or at least it still
feels like a challenge I think even now like
I've coached Erin to a pretty high level and
I don't have a queue of other athletes at the
door that are like I have to work with you because
you coach so well um and I definitely have got
like male colleagues that have done like either
the same amount or a little bit less or maybe
they've done a little bit more but then they
have like this queue of people that are like
oh I have to work with you I have to work with
you and there's of course reasons for that of
like maybe they've got better knowledge or like
S &C training it's all these things that factor
into it and I can definitely rationalize those
but it's hard not sometimes to think like it's
because I'm younger or female that actually people
just don't think I know things and still when
I talk to some people they're like all right
okay yeah yeah sure like when I say stuff to
them whereas others are like take it on board
fully so it's hard to it's hard to make that
transition into the place that I am now where
I can give feedback and people don't just roll
their eyes or don't think anything of it or maybe
that was internal for me that that was happening
but it's still like an ongoing struggle and I
think unless I was distinctly working with a
group of athletes that were all improving all
the time and I had all the time to give to them
I don't think I'll ever get to the point of people
would just be like yeah she's a coach that can
coach everyone I think people still have this
thing of like oh it's worked for one time but
maybe that's just with that athlete but this
could all be my insecurities in my head is that
like something that you would want to prove like
you would want to coach more individual athletes
and show that it's something you can do there
was definitely a point where I wanted that um
I think before I started working with Erin I
or maybe even like while I was working with Erin
um a year ago there was a point of oh i wanted
like i want to show people that i actually know
what i'm talking about like i i'm understanding
everything i'm not just hanging out with her
on sessions like i am coaching i am like delivering
part of the training plan i'm feeding back on
the training plan i'm looking at the snc i'm
like inputting on the nutrition i'm managing
everything together like i wanted people to know
that because i wanted to be like respected as
one of the top coaches in the world because that's
kind of like theoretically where i am with the
results that i've got from the athletes um but
as the time's gone on I've kind of got more comfortable
with actually who am I proving that to what am
I going to gain from it what's the point like
as long as I know that I'm doing the best that
I can do and I believe in what I'm delivering
for the athletes that I can I'm not going to
chase after other athletes I'm going to make
myself accessible to all of them and if more
people want to work with me that's great it would
definitely fill me with a bit more confidence
that people wanted that but If I am going to
spend all my time chasing that and trying to
prove myself, then I'm not actually going to
be focusing on the right things. So I've tried
to like take a step away from that. But there's
definitely still times where I'm like, why does
nobody want to work with me? Do you feel like
at least like other coaches have that respect
for you? Yeah, I mean, like my colleagues are
really good. We're all we've been through like
tough times in. the history of like the GB team
and like different management and like we've
like had it where everybody kind of was out to
get us at times so we've all been really good
at like building each other up and trying to
have each other's backs and like me and my colleague
will always sort of say like hey you did that
when there's a good result that happened so like
isn't it amazing that like we've achieved this
like this is great and other people don't always
see that they think that we're just like negative
and like sarcastic all the time because externally
we are but we do have our moments where we'll
turn around and be like hey like good work very
few people in the world have achieved this like
this is great and we kind of like pick each other
up so definitely other people have respect but
it's like how far does that go what are some
of the difficulties you feel like you faced as
a female coach um I mean it comes back to that
sort of respect thing or people thinking that
I'm as good a coach as my male colleague like
I've had several interactions where people have
kind of looked me up and down and sort of gone
who are you and what are you doing in this space
and whether that's like an age thing or whether
it was um being a female I always feel like I've
kind of been brushed off as not being that involved
and again there's other factors into people building
their opinion but I heard recently um to be part
of like this conference thing somebody questioned
the fact that there was all male coaches going
to it and the response that they got is there's
no female coaches functioning at the level which
for me was like well it's not just me that's
coaching at the elite level and climbing there's
like a lot of us there's a lot of nations that
are led by impressive female coaches that have
been leading them for a long time so why does
somebody think that these men are the only ones
that are leading it like those men are great
coaches they are definitely doing impressive
things they definitely have a lot to say but
there is also women that are out there and it
should really be representative because it's
not just the men in the pit or behind the wall
but people still seem to think that it is and
I don't know how you change that perspective
and now I'm going to it because one of the male
coaches was having a baby so that's great for
him but he had to pull out last minute so now
I'm going to speak at that but initially was
not counted as one of being the good coaches
at the time so it's interesting Yeah, that's
interesting. Because there's also Katarina on
the Austrian team. Yeah, Katarina. But there's
so many other female coaches. I mean, for us
in the UK, the majority of our department is
female. So I have a female head of performance.
There's me as a female podium coach. There's
a female academy coach, and she's the only academy
coach. In the youth space, the youth team is
run by women. The talent team is run by women.
We have a lot. in our yeah in our country so
we're quite lucky in that sense but there are
multiple other teams French team have them Belgian
Austrian Germans lots of other teams work with
women so I don't know why they thought that there
was no women coaching at the level yeah I mean
do you think it's like been harder for women
to get into coaching or maybe like it's not something
that they're as interested in pursuing there's
definitely like a gap in I think in all sports
not just in climbing for female coaches it's
it is harder to get in because there's always
going to be this argument of like men just want
to work with men they work better with them in
the same way that maybe female athletes would
work better with women there's always that argument
and if you're working towards a higher level
then the general idea is that the men are better
at delivering at that level they have a better
understanding and I think climbing is a bit different
because to understand how hard somebody else
climbs just by looking at them that you don't
need to be able to climb a certain grade to do
that but I think historically that's kind of
how it worked like it was historically ex -athletes
that were coming in to to be the coaches and
to teach other people and it's only in more recent
years where it's less ex -athletes coming through
and like even I'm counted in that but there are
definitely coaches out there that were never
an athlete they've just come in as a coach But
yeah, I think in all sports you have that issue.
And it tends to be that the women won't get up
to like academy, like transition spaces. So they
use the senior space. That's where they'll be
placed because actually like women tend to be
better at coaching those age groups because there's
like puberty, emotions, like hormones everywhere.
And women tend to be a bit more empathetic. So
they thrive better in that space. But that then
means that they're not pushed up into the senior
space very often. And that's where all the men
go because that's where they work better. it's
kind of hard to to fight it but there's definitely
like imbalances still yeah i guess kind of keeping
that in mind um one of the questions that came
in from with flow in mind was what advice would
you give to aspiring female coaches um and i'm
thinking just about people who are interested
in becoming coaches in general especially in
like the competition space yeah i mean the one
thing that always stuck with me in terms of like
being women come into this space is that sort
of statistic about the fact that women won't
go for jobs unless they have all of the requirements
and men will go for a job where they have 50
% and just having that in the back of your mind
if you don't think that you are qualified enough
or that you have enough experience go for it
anyway and let somebody else decide like put
yourself out there and give it a go and if somebody
says that you're not good at it then go and work
hard and get better at it don't just avoid it
because you don't think you're capable of it
I speak to so many female coaches that some of
them have even said that they're going to walk
away from their athletes because they don't think
that they have what it takes to support them
how do you know until you try like you can work
with other people I would almost say like encourage
them to work with other people I've worked with
other coaches for a lot of my career and that's
helped me to develop and just sense check my
work but I've always had the understanding to
get there because otherwise they would just be
like dragging me along and that's not the case
so Try and quieten the voices that say you don't
have enough experience or enough knowledge. Put
yourself out there in a way. Ask other people
to support you in it. But you probably have the
capabilities. You just need to give it a shot.
Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess that
also kind of tracks with how you grew as a coach.
Like you kind of filled a different role. Like
when you were younger and you were coaching,
you felt like you supported your athletes in
a different way than the other coaches did. yeah
it was it was always very relaxed I never did
I don't know if it's actually really that different
to what I do now I never did the full like just
delivering the training plan like quite harsh
get it get it done I don't think that's the nature
of climbing anyway but I think I leaning into
my style is what helped me to develop and grow
because just almost naturally i've developed
all the like knowledge i've i've kind of absorbed
it by going on different courses and shadowing
different people and working with different coaches
i've learned from all of their knowledge and
brought that into my own and if i'd gone straight
in trying to do what i thought was the right
way to do it it wouldn't have worked out whereas
it's gone much better just kind of doing it my
way figuring it out and adapting as i go and
it's worked better for some of the athletes as
well so you never know what's going to be right
until it's already right yeah and I think now
might be a good time to get into I guess like
what coaching actually looks like I think for
a lot of people it just kind of seems like oh
you write a training plan maybe you like give
some feedback on what they're doing on the wall
but then you had mentioned like with coaching
Aaron you also do like nutrition plans and like
emotional support and things like that so what
else all goes into it yeah I mean when you you
have athletes like Aaron that are as advanced
as they are in that sense like they're full -time
training eight hours a day six days a week there's
a lot more time to provide all this extra support
so yes there's the aspects of we're just going
to the wall maybe I'm belaying maybe I'm setting
some boulders maybe I'm just there reminding
her that she's actually capable of climbing when
she falls off those boulders and thinks that
she's rubbish like there's that sort of psychological
support there but I would say that my role at
least in that setup is sort of oversight of everything
so I'm technically her team lead, and she has
a team of coaches. Pardon this brief interruption,
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well. Back to the show. So for her, coaching
looks like a variety of different experts all
leaning into their own areas. So we have a nutritionist
who's on the job as nutrition. She's very good
at what she does. She provides a nutrition plan
and then I just kind of check in and go, hey,
have you had that snack? Hey, have you done this?
Hey, have you drank that water? And if it's...
too much for like aaron to do then we go right
okay we need to feed this back and we need to
say that that part of the plan's not working
we need to adapt it and i try to get aaron to
do it as much as possible but it's quite stressful
being an athlete there's quite a lot going on
so sometimes i'll just be like don't worry i'll
send the message i'll sorry for you we'll get
this changed um and we have like physio that
ideally she doesn't need to see that that often
but obviously it's their sports masseuse for
like maintenance there's snc coach there's her
training plan coach um And then she has like
a mindset coach as well as like some psych support.
So she has like a whole team and as well as her
family and her partner and everybody that she's
got around her like externally is wider support.
She's got like a whole team of different people
that we all focus on the bits that we're best
at. And there's obviously overlapping communication
between everybody to kind of check in and go,
does the S &C line up with the training, line
up with the nutrition, line up with the resting?
Is the massage at the right time? Is she in a
good place psychologically? There's all of these
considerations all the time, which she has to
deal with. But ideally, we're trying to preempt
and make sure that it's as easy for her as possible.
She just has to show up and climb and leave.
But yeah, I kind of oversee everything. I would
say chat to her the most, feedback to everybody
else, arrange team meetings to check in. So it's
a whole, it's a bit more like manager -y than
coach at times. Jeez, I did not realize that
there was this whole team like going into this.
That's kind of crazy. And I really wish that
I had that. Yeah, I mean, it's grown a lot. So
like even this time last year, we had two or
three less people, I think. There was... initially
it was just Erin her training plan coach that
did her robot plan which was lattice and then
I did some one -to -ones and then after like
2023 she had a really tough season she felt really
tired she wasn't happy with things we kind of
completely mixed it up and did something new
by at the time just bringing in an S &C coach
and bringing in me more regularly and then that
grow into okay we'll bring a nutritionist in
we'll bring a psych in okay we'll bring physio
in and then it's just kind of like grown and
grown and it's just kind of you don't want to
miss anything you don't want to like risk not
trying to do something and all of them factor
in together like if you train too hard and you
don't feel enough then you're going to get injured
if you train too hard and you don't get the recovery
mass you're going to get injured if you don't
train hard enough because snc is not there to
do these extra little bits that you could do
when your skin's too thin then you're not going
to be as strong as possible so it's trying to
like consider every possibility and make sure
that we address it do you still do like the one
-on -ones yeah so i see our own like um sometimes
like three times a week um it's kind of the same
offer that's like my gb role so like any athlete
that's on the the program and is like one of
the funded athletes then they can technically
like come to us and get as much coaching time
as they as we can fit in a week so it's generally
like three days um but i was in in sprinkler
for 10 days at the start of the year and then
we have like a training camp with a bunch of
the athletes coming at the end of um january
so There's quite a lot of contact time because
like when we're in comp season, I obviously see
them every day and there's a lot of feedback
loop there. But yeah, generally with Aaron, it's
like three days a week at least. Yeah, what are
the one -on -one sessions kind of look like?
Not necessarily just for Aaron, but for like
anyone else on the GB team. I mean, it kind of
varies depending on what they're doing. So sometimes
it's just pointing circuits and kind of... like
cheering them on to try harder telling them to
rest that sort of thing sometimes it's like making
up cool boulders and like funky moves to try
and challenge them if we've not got the setting
in the wall sometimes it's like facilitating
a comp sim for them or like doing feedback on
preset boulder sort of thing um and i guess like
some days are just belaying non -stop just constantly
my end of a rope like okay this one next okay
this one next okay this one next and those ones
are maybe the more tiring ones but necessary
obviously interesting to know um yeah i guess
in general in terms of like uh team gb training
what's what are your thoughts for like split
of strength training versus on the wall training
versus board climbing or whatever other training
methods there are out there i guess it's so different
for everybody but generally i think the most
important thing is kind of keeping track of what
they need like if if somebody's naturally quite
strong probably less strength training either
make it your super strength and lean into it
do the do the board sessions whatever or focus
on the technical stuff and drop it back a bit
um but then it can be like a huge psychological
impact on that so if somebody mentally struggles
with all the technical stuff the failing of going
and doing the technical side of things then they
probably need a board session to go and feel
good or they probably need to get in the gym
and just straight forward pick up some weights
you can't get it wrong you can either pick them
up or you can't pick them up it's nice and simple
so you might need to do that equally you might
have an athlete that's really technically talented
and you want to get there stronger trying to
get the balance of them getting stronger without
losing the natural talent and technique is quite
hard so you probably have to make sure that there's
like at least one or two sessions probably like
three or four sessions a week that at least start
with a fully technical execution thing then playing
around really free flow like just having a go
at some moves and seeing what they can do and
then only the rest of the time like maybe the
other two or three sessions maybe like mixing
it in so you've got a bit of both ideally you
want to be hammering that sort of like physical
side of things and It obviously changes as you
go through the year as well. There's so many
considerations. At the start of off -season,
so November, December, January, you might want
to do a huge gym block and just get bulky, get
strong, get that base muscle there so that you
can then transfer it by getting onto the wall
and doing the really focused stuff later because
it's so much easier and simpler. You're less
likely to get injured. You can really build a
base in all these areas and then you can transform
it. But some people really... they don't like
that they don't respond to that it stresses them
out so it's hard because you have to like adapt
it to to every athlete and some some rules stick
of like obviously don't do too much but some
of them you have to really adapt to with where
they're at would you say that it's better to
kind of like lean into a strength or for comps
is it better to try to be like an all -rounder
i mean if you're being objective of a competition
athlete you should probably be an all -rounder
like you're You can probably get through rounds
having strengths, but if you want to win, if
you want to get a medal, you need to be prepared
for whatever is going to be on the wall. And
some people's strengths, like you see some French
athletes who are amazing at coordination and
then you get some competitions where it's really
coordination heavy, it fares really well for
them. They're also pretty strong as well. They're
also really good at slabs. But they'll have some
comps where it is slightly easier for them because
it's their style, whereas... you might have some
comps that are really physical or like really
grovelly and if you're only good at coordination
then you're not going to get anywhere in that
comp so it's kind of what are you aiming for
you're aiming for one one -off performance where
you might have your day and it's your boulders
and it goes well okay great probably lean into
your strengths then but if you want to be a successful
comp athlete over a long period of time you need
to be good at every style basically yeah when
i think to like erin it's like hard for me to
put a finger on like what her strengths and weaknesses
would be it's like kind of just an all -rounder
yeah i mean she she's pretty good at doing everything
she definitely has weaknesses because we definitely
have stuff that we work on but people get really
confused by her like people have said that she's
not very technical she's not good in the slab
but then her stats from the season actually have
really high slab performances um and it's really
neat she's actually did really bad at like no
thumbs squeezing okay like it's a wide that basically
world champs qualifier exposed her massively
she like qualified really low because the third
boulder was a straightforward like flat squeeze
boulder and that's somehow still a weakness we
work on every year but i think she just like
struggles on it um but that's really quite rare
so it doesn't come up that much so it's generally
it's hard because you have to like push up the
whole level you can't just like okay you're really
strong so we need to get your slabs up it's like
okay everything's pretty good but if you want
to like keep winning then we need to like push
up everything so yeah it's uh it's hard to get
it all up there and be like okay there's one
weakness that comes up every three comps or even
every six comps we gotta make sure that this
is coming up as well yeah that's super specific
i mean did you just like set a bunch of boulders
with like no thumb squeezing i mean we tried
we don't we don't really have much like free
reign on setting in the uk we kind of have to
work on commercial gyms quite a lot so it's a
lot of work on spray walls and i kind of went
to her snc coach and was like what do you think
we could do with this and they were a bit like
there's not really exercises that train that
i'm like yeah but can we can we come up with
some and now she has these like bizarre exercises
even when she's doing them she's like i'm not
really sure what this is for but then afterwards
she's fully like oh yeah no all of the muscles
that hurt from compression are hurting right
now so i'm kind of like well done tom like you've
done a good job right good to hear um do you
think there's anything that's like the most underrated
training technique for climbing it's so hard
because like every nation does it differently
and i think like a general rule is just going
to do more boulders or more routes like more
time on task is always gonna do better but i
guess like the quality of the time is is key
as well um i think board climbing really benefits
us a lot like the fact that our guys can get
on a woody board and just go and grind out and
like do their strength training and get that
done um and they're pretty open to snc as well
so like that base building stuff like we're a
pretty strong nation now um in that sense like
physically so i think that's one thing that that
helps us but equally like some of our guys fingerboard
some of them don't it's hard to tell if that
helps like some of them spend more time on set
boulders than they do on spray wall and that
benefits them so I think until we're like much
further on as a whole sport with a lot more like
studies behind things it's so hard to say like
yeah this thing will make you really really good
because each athlete is like totally different
like some of them can do one armors some of them
can have a one arm edge like some of them can't
do it at all and yet they're still they're crushing
it so Yeah, I guess that's true. Is there anything
that you feel like is an overrated training technique
then? I mean, if it makes the athlete feel good,
then it can't be overrated. If an athlete's doing
something and a coach turns around and says,
that's not giving you anything, but the athlete
believes that it's doing something, then it's
probably doing something. It may be... could
be slightly better time -wise it could be better
to use the time but there's always that thing
of like placebo effects of as long as there's
belief in the program and you're seeing some
improvements that it's got to be doing something
if you're hammering an exercise for six weeks
and nothing's getting better then you should
probably change it but i don't think there's
anything like nothing stands out like maybe old
-fashioned campus boarding that's maybe not as
useful There was a drip. Sorry. That's overrated.
No, no, no. I think it's more like what does
it bring at this point for comp climbing? If
you can get on a spray wall on campus, then better
grip type, better movement, like you're getting
a full range. It's more appropriate than doing
straightforward campus boarding. But if you want
to just improve like fire and a range that's
like that set, then it's useful. So it's what
does that individual need to work on? And I don't
think anything would be potentially too overhyped.
There's always going to be hype exercises. There's
the cuffs, the cuff blood circulation. They're
really hype for a bit, but there's always going
to be little things like that. But I actually
don't think that many of the athletes at our
level or the coaches at our level are actually
getting too caught up in them. But I'm sure other
people would think of things. Are people using
the blood circulation cuffs for climbing? there
was a stage in at least in Sheffield when I first
moved down here it was maybe like in 2018 or
2019 where I went into the wall and there was
like three people that were doing like pickups
and they were doing like seven on three off pickups
with the cuffs and they were like I swear by
it it's incredible my recovery my capacity has
gone up so much or it was probably just the fact
that they were doing seven on three off for the
first time in ages but They were like swearing
by it. And I'm sure there was like studies that
didn't back up, but that was like a hype phase
for sure. Huh. Okay. Interesting. I'm just, I'm
also thinking about the old fashioned campus
boarding. I feel like I do a lot of that. So
maybe I need to, maybe I need to switch that
up. I mean, it's great for cover. If you can
like actually go in campus boulders, then it's
like the first stepping stone to go in campus
boulders. But then if you want to do wider moves
or vary the hole type. then you could just get
on boulders but then it's so hard because like
how many walls actually have the perfect angle
to campus on that also have appropriate boulders
set on it like it's a tool for making the most
of a situation it's not a tool that you should
spend all your time on that's the main thing
well i also like just kind of feel like a douche
if i go into the gym and like campus boulders
there's also that you could go in campus like
a project that someone's on and then they'll
never like how your ego will cope with that situation.
Yeah, but it's very well makes sense. What are
your own climbing goals? So I've bouldered 8a
before and loosely have that goal again. I would
like to at least get close to that. I feel like
I'm close every year, but I am slowly coming
around to the fact that my training is super
inconsistent mid -season. The last two years
I've had finger injuries either just before the
season or just after the season because of the
inconsistency. And I can still fairly regularly
boulder 70, 70 plus. So like my main aim right
now is just maintaining that. But like maybe
a little bit of me is pushing to try and find
an 80 that I can like have a good go at. Something
that's at least close to try and train for. But
I think I have to like reality check myself.
I'm like, okay, well, I don't really have time
to train. I'm not going to be disappointed if
I... keep pushing for this and it's never going
to be a reality so it's kind of maintaining i've
actually just like got into running as something
that's not climbing that i can do when i'm at
the comps and try and push on that instead do
you have any interest in like the dynamic indoor
style of setting these days or is that not for
you i actually like i really enjoy them um i
sucked at them when i was competing and i still
so very much suck at them now but when they have
like the nice easy versions that they set for
the customers i love those favorite um because
it's always like i find it really interesting
those movements like biomechanics the way that
the like physics of the movements work the way
that you generate all that stuff i find really
interesting to coach and it's one of the things
i kind of lean into so i always find it interesting
when i look at a boulder and i'm like cool i
understand what i need to do on this and then
my body just completely fails to do it and i
have to go right let me just take a step back
and like build up to it but it always just feels
so satisfying when you do like a cool coordination
move people that say they don't like them just
aren't very good at them and are too scared to
try them and I definitely sometimes are too scared
to try them but when I when I get on a good one
and I manage to do like the easy ones I'm like
yeah sick that was cool. Do you feel like you
have a better understanding of how to do that
kind of movement compared to your athletes or
do you think that the athletes would have a better
understanding of it compared to you? I would
say that they have a better understanding but
I also think that my understanding is quite hi
we've had this debate actually I pissed a lot
of people off in a warm up because it was like
this theory of like if you were to put my brain
into an athlete's body would I be able to do
the moves and do the boulders and I was like
oh well yeah I think because like I'm not just
like looking at people doing the moves like I
said I am trying to do these moves and I'm it
would take me longer but I would in theory be
able to use their muscles and understandings
and stuff that way and it piss people off and
so sometimes I'm like was that right was that
not right but I kind of stuck by it like no I've
been doing this for a long time like I've watched
a lot of world cups I've been on the mats and
I've not just seen that one athlete do the movement
I've seen all of the athletes and the first 20
people come and do this movement so like I understand
the differences and like I have to to be able
to teach those athletes how to do those things
so I have to have some sort of understanding
but I don't think that I have more than them
because definitely they rock up and sometimes
she's doing it like oh okay i don't think you
would do it that way so true yeah there's gotta
be something that they've got over me otherwise
surely if i just trained hard enough i'd be on
the mats too yeah yeah yeah i think seeing like
a bunch of people on the mats doing a bunch of
different ways and then seeing what actually
ended up working that probably helps a bunch
so in terms of i guess like what's next for you
i mean you're still a super young coach you've
already coached at the olympics Like, what do
you imagine would even be next? Like, is there
any higher achievement than that? Yeah, I mean,
I mean, I guess I could just go like, oh, sweet,
I've done it. Ticked it. Coached an athlete to
a gold medal, won the overall, coached at the
Olympics. But I think the way that I've done
those things, like, could always have been better.
So my aim is to sort of continually develop what
I do. So I want to go to the Olympics and...
be like a head coach eventually um i want to
see how many olympics i can get to because i
always find it really cool when i speak to like
other coaches in the uk and they're like yeah
i've done 10 games and i'm just like wow true
many um i'm not sure i want to do that many but
i would like to do more than just the one especially
because like the one for me i was like the last
coach to go in i was kind of like it was like
three four weeks five weeks before that i got
told um oh wow whirlwinds and it was cool that
i was there but there was just like a kind of
bitter taste to it of like oh well I wasn't the
first pick or whatever so I'd like to be just
one of the Olympic coaches that's going out and
that's what you do and have supported the athletes
to that point and not just kind of like swooping
in maybe like not having supported them as much
as I could have even though I feel like I supported
a lot of the last guys a lot but yeah I'd just
like to do it again and like do it really well
and eventually like be a head coach for GB and
kind of like I'm okay not doing the hands -on
coaching stuff that much I'm definitely better
at like leadership and and management and admin
I can do all the admin stuff which some other
people don't want to do they just want to do
the hands -on coaching stuff so like maybe it'd
be better if I moved into to that sort of things
to let the people that really want to do the
hands -on coaching and nothing else just do that
and I can go and do the other bits because I
find that like equally rewarding um but I just
want to coach for a good amount of time and like
be happy with how I've coached as well there's
definitely been bits which I could have done
better over the last few years so I'd like to
get to the point where there's less things I
could have done better there's always gonna be
something but trying to do it as well as possible
yeah does GB have like a head coach right now
or because yeah like after Tom left yeah so he
we basically had all the financial struggles
um oh so we have a head of performance right
now um And then we have myself and Liam that
are the podium coaches. And we don't have enough
money to have a head coach. That kind of moves
into one of the audience questions, which I guess
I can... I guess I'll just ask that one now.
So one of the audience questions was, why is
GB climbing funding so bad? Is it getting any
better? I believe at some point the coaches had
to either self -fund or be funded by athletes
or couldn't go to comps. So how was your experience
with that? I think it was a bit of an accidental
deficit in the last cycle. There was basically
just an overspend. there were some messes made
in the budget that meant that we spent more money
than we had which is why at the end of the Olympic
year the coaches had to be paid for by the athletes
because we didn't have any money to send them
to the competitions but we still very much wanted
to support the athletes so it was offered to
them if you want GB coaches to go we have the
time we'll go could you just contribute to it
and we did some crowdfunding but we didn't like
say that they had to pay for us to go like if
they couldn't afford it that was obviously fine.
um but it was just like a mistake basically we
don't know exactly what happened i'm sure some
people do know what happened but we don't know
what happened um and it was just like misbudgeted
whereas now we like at the start of this cycle
technically had less than the cycle before um
or at least it seemed that way because we'd spent
more money than we had um but now The athletes
basically are to thank for this. They've done
really, really well. And now UK Sport have recognised
that we're actually quite a good sport. We've
done a fairly good job to support athletes into
medal winning performances, into transition to
senior. They basically are looking at a team
of successful athletes rather than one or two.
And thankfully, all of our guys have done really,
really well. They've pulled out some amazing
performances in the last couple of years. like
it's i think it is getting better i think we
are getting a bit more like structured in it
i guess or like stable in the financial side
of things because we should be able to equally
support all the competitions um and send coaches
to it and not make the same mistakes again hopefully
but it was basically yeah it was just a it was
a mistake and we are not making it again at all
Okay. Yeah, let's do another audience question.
So Team GB is super strong at the moment. How
has that impacted competitiveness and camaraderie
amongst the athletes? I think our team's actually,
like, they're pretty good. They all get on for
the most part. There's always going to be, like,
personal relationships. People are going to get
on better with other people. But actually, like,
I think all of our guys are super supportive.
I think there's... like a lot of people pushing
on each other like a lot of our guys especially
are training together a lot of the time and like
learning from each other pushing each other training
together and it's pretty consistent like it's
a little bit different for some others because
they live in different places or especially like
for Erin for example she's doing boulder and
lead there's very few athletes that are actually
training leads at the like world cup level in
the UK and training boulder so it's hard to align
the schedules and like where they go and train
their leader, where they don't on certain days.
So there's challenges in that sense of they might
not interact that much in the offseason, but
generally when they come together, there's a
pretty good team environment on the whole. But
like I said, there's always going to be some
people that don't get on. I mean, is there any
more stress dealing with maybe getting spots
for World Cups? I guess like even thinking ahead
to future olympic spots yeah I mean it was definitely
I think quite stressful for a lot of them but
we we have like a pre -selection system which
for all of our guys that are like on program
if they achieved certain results last year they
basically get pre -selected for world cup this
year so for those guys they're kind of safe they
don't have to worry about it because we wanted
them to be able to like train as hard as possible
and not have to worry about it peaking because
our comps like now but the first world cups in
may or june like it just makes it a little bit
easier because we're kind of stoppers when we
can do those things but that does leave I think
it's one older World Cup space in the men's I
think it's really not that much and then it's
not not a huge amount in the women's when it
comes into World Cups because there's a lot of
our guys like fighting for those spaces and especially
for lead I think there's only like three or four
that are like spaces for men and women I can't
remember off the top of my head but those are
a lot more competitive and it's always tough
for us we've always had like a fairly competitive
nation but it's definitely got a lot more tense
at british champs and stuff which is why we've
like moved towards a different like selection
thing so it's just nice and easy you leave the
competition you know that you're selected or
you're not but you have to be in i think like
top five or top three a lot of the time so it's
quite tough okay so i guess at least for the
people who are already in the world cup circuit
they don't have to think about competing against
each other in terms of like team GB it's more
just like this is your overall performance that
helps them get selected yeah and I think that
helps as well with like the environment of the
competitions um because previously it was like
if you weren't pre -selected you had to show
up at this competition where everybody's watching
you like you're the one to beat makes it really
hard um whereas now it's like okay well they're
not they're literally not your competition they
are just there to they still have to compete
um but it's sort of like I can't remember why
exactly is we have to compete I think it's basically
to demonstrate the standard and like if like
stuff people say like aim for because I guess
if it was like none of them competed the numbers
would be a lot smaller it'd be a lot harder to
to know the performance gap I guess between the
guys that are just qualifying on their own and
the ones that have already pre -qualified so
it's a good like training tool I guess but it
also just like completely removes it and it means
that like people like Toby and Aaron and Emma
and Diane like they're going and they're competing
alongside people that probably idolize them quite
a lot and that's quite cool in itself as well
yeah um like Max Milne always going and trying
to win British Boulder Champs is so so cool every
year and like I think that he would choose to
compete anyway but it's great to have that sort
of like national fight as well like they're the
title is equally as important to them as like
a world cup title maybe not equally but like
it's an important title to them um yeah So that's
cool too, but it does obviously remove the stress
of everybody else doesn't have to see them as
competition in the sense of selection. It's just
really actual competition. Okay. What are some
of the ways you've coached the GB athletes on
the mental side of competition? Yeah, so I guess
like on the whole as a team, we try to make sure
that we set harder than the World Cups in the
UK as much as possible, which is challenging
because we don't get stuff set that hard. um
but when we're trying to do trainings and stuff
we'll always make sure that there's at least
one day of a training where it's just brutal
and people get shut down kind of as a psychological
thing to if they can do it there then when they
go to the world cups it's easy um interesting
but also like removing the simulation aspects
because for some of them they they hate the simulation
like it's they can't get in the right mindset
for it so it's just stressful it's not helpful
um so we're quite flexible with that and that's
mainly to athlete requests but it's again they're
still going and trying hard boulders and doing
harder moves and even if they can't do them they're
learning a lot from that so then when they go
to a world cup boulder and it's like hopefully
an easier version of that move they just get
it straight away. Yeah I haven't thought of that
as like a mental training trick I guess. Do you
feel like you provide a lot of I guess like psychological
coaching as well or is it more just like these
little tricks that help them feel less stressed
during comps? people like Erin I would say all
of the stuff that I do has like a psychological
aspect to it I'm not doing like therapy sessions
with her but there's some like cognitive behavioral
therapy techniques that I'll use to kind of help
her process when stuff is challenging and just
the like changing perspectives on how they look
at things and trying to again like provide that
balanced perspective so if they think that they've
had a terrible performance trying to provide
a positive aspect to it so that they can see
in a balanced sense and then equally when they've
had a really good performance letting them lean
into that but then coming back in to say like
cool what can we continue to do to build on that
anyway like it's always going to be some sort
of balance in that sense um but it's always about
how they're viewing it because more often than
not they are just like fully negative on it they're
like oh i could have done that better even when
they've done really well i could have done that
better i could have done that that was rubbish
that wasn't good beating themselves up a lot
so it's trying to like almost triage it in that
sense of what do we need to focus on right now
how can we control this thing let's go and focus
on those things that we can control change them
and anything else we're going to have to accept
it and put it to the side for now and try and
approach it that way what about more specifically
when it's like the expectations of being one
of the higher performers and like maybe having
to defend your title or like being the one that
everyone else is trying to be yeah I guess in
in those instances I'm actually trying to help
them see it from other people's perspective so
you are you kind of are the one to be you are
the one to watch people are waiting for you to
fail because then it's their chance to step up
but you can view that in a way that's really
negative and like people are out to get you but
realistically like most people are thinking that
way in some sense it's not necessarily a malicious
way it's not like oh I hope they fall off it's
just oh maybe I have a chance to like step up
and it's trying to help them see it from like
the empathetic side of view of how do you think
that person is feeling if they're thinking that
way and if they're acting that way and talking
that way do you think that's coming from a place
of like confidence or do you think that they're
actually experiencing some insecurities as well
they're worried about how they're performing
they think the only way that they can perform
and can win is if you mess up isn't that like
a shame that that's how they think like wouldn't
it be nicer if they could just go like okay i'm
going to perform my best and get the results
i want but like it's hard isn't it so it's trying
to like help them see from other sides so it's
not just this negative thing um because it is
quite vulnerable quite isolating when you are
on your own like i've seen it quite a lot where
people if like if Erin doesn't do something somebody
has to be like oh my god Erin didn't do that
move and I did and that can be really negative
of like oh my god she's rubbish but actually
I use an example of like me and her both tried
the same route in Innsbruck and I do not route
climb but it made me feel really good when she
struggled on a move that I'd struggled on not
because I was like ha she's failed but because
it meant that I wasn't as rubbish as I thought
I was because when I'd done that move I was like
oh my god this is so hard I suck so much actually
seeing her struggle I was like oh it's a hard
move great like I just was trying hard so that's
fine yeah it's really easy to just see it as
like oh good she fails and actually like there's
this whole other process is going on internally
that we don't vocalize or hear from anybody else
okay yeah that's a good way to put it how do
you think new comps like PCL will impact the
scene for both athletes and coaches I mean it's
exciting it's new ways to get out there I think
There's still a huge gap between the prize money
that you get at a World Cup, the publicity that
you get at a World Cup, all that stuff, and then
the break in the off -season of what have you
got to go for. Especially in the UK, we have
a few small competitions with small prize monies,
which I guess seem big in terms of the FSC prize
money, actually. But yeah, it's hard to make
money as an athlete unless you are... winning
in the top eight consistently at a world cup
and very few people are consistently in the top
eight so it's a good way for other people to
make a career out of this to put themselves out
there and like get some more practice in the
meantime and it seems like a cool different format
i don't actually know that much about it um but
it's it seems like a step towards like your formula
one in that sense of making it a big show and
it's traveling and more people are invested in
it so it's always going to be better for the
athletes to get out there with i guess other
brands as well do you think the i guess like
the timing of the comps will make a big difference
with in terms of their training i mean that's
where we struggle as well like nationally with
our championships so like our selections like
i was saying before if you want to make it onto
the first boulder wall competition season you
have to compete in january to make it there and
that's just because as we get closer to like
march and april there's too many other competitions
that classroom there's too many of the weekends
that are taken up So this is the only weekend
that we have available to do that, which means
that if you have to do this competition to qualify,
your first competition of the year is in January
and your last competition of the year now is
in October. So it's a huge, huge season. There's
like a bit of a training break in between, but
you don't really have a break in that time because
you don't want to lose too much. So you might
have like a little bit of a break to recover,
but then you have to train for another few weeks
in between. And then maybe you get... a week
or two weeks or three weeks off at the end of
the year but if you didn't perform well enough
to be pre -selected then you have to peak again
in January so it's always really challenging
the way that the year is structured yeah that
sounds like a nightmare actually for the athletes
okay last one from the audience we'll do tips
for improvement as a coach specifically as a
competition coach from someone who is new to
coaching go to competitions like sounds really
straightforward but I think I did a lot of volunteering
time. I did a lot of time judging, being a runner
at a competition, also being a coach at a competition,
just going with the athletes. And the more understanding
that you can get of the tactics of the competition,
how it works, what things might come up, the
better you can prepare your athletes. So if you're
just preparing your athletes for the best situations,
they're never going to do that well. So having
the experience of this could go wrong in a competition,
the judges could do this. this could happen and
you prepare your athletes for those scenarios
you use them to like make training harder to
develop your skills anyway but then actually
they get there and they're prepared for that
then that's only going to be better and you can
only learn that by going to the comps yourself
like you can speak to other people and other
people can tell you but i don't think that it
is the same as having to like fight that fire
firsthand um so try and yeah just go to them
locally like nationally internationally if you
can but you can the more that you build up the
more like you are to move up through it anyway
interesting did you do like that volunteering
of like doing running and judging and stuff while
you were a coach or was that before you became
a coach I think I did both like I think um obviously
when I was younger I remember there was a world
cup or European champs or something that was
happening at which was my local wall when I was
a kid um and I volunteered as a runner then when
I was like 15 um but then as I was older like
my parents were really good at giving back to
like the community that my mum ran um how her
role was in Scottish climbing but she was in
terms of something in Scottish climbing like
she was judging at every competition and still
goes and judges at some competitions now my dad
was like the photographer and he did some judging
as well so I was kind of brought up to give back
in that sense so I just automatically went and
volunteered when there's opportunities i volunteered
to judge at like ycs's um which is local youth
competitions that happened like across the whole
uk but there is like regional rounds i would
volunteer at and then if the finals was close
enough to me i would like volunteer that as well
so i've always and i was coaching then for sure
because i remember being old enough that i had
athletes competing and i had to say oh i can't
judge their category it's not fair give me a
different category um so yeah whole mixture cool
okay well i think that wraps up the questions
i have for today then thank you for joining um
is there anything like any other words of wisdom
that you want to get out there um don't get a
sausage dog because they're like barky and need
to be in your lap a little bit yeah no i can't
think of anything else um do you want to let
people know where they can find you uh yeah you
can get me on instagram rachel karma with a k
um and then i don't really well i have a youtube
but that's for climbing boulders and I can't
remember what that is but if you search ritual
car climbing I think I come up and I post a bunch
of different boulders in font the UK anywhere
else I go climbing just for female beta shorter
beta Oh, that'll be good to see. All right. Awesome.
Well, thank you again. And it was amazing to
chat. No problem. Thank you so much for making
it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to
like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise,
you are a super fake climber. If you're listening
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