WEBVTT

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We have live route setting. The resetting will

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be done during the competition, between rounds.

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Yeah, I would say we'll keep the whole climber

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in view. We won't be having close -ups at the

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key moments, which I know drives people crazy

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on a lot of comps. And as I say, I'm not this

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kind of rabid capitalist trying to nail climbing

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and milk as much money as we can out of it. But

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if you want to pay... an athlete 100 grand to

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win an event that 100 grand has to come from

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somewhere it's not going to come from thin air

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we want to go to big cities big arenas i want

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to go to madison square garden i'll throw that

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out there right now i think we should be you

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know we want to get in the garden we want to

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get in wembley arena we want to be in staples

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center in la we want to go really big Welcome

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to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing

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Podcast. I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited

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to introduce my guest for today, Charlie Boscoe.

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This is Charlie's second time on the podcast,

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and this time he's back with a big announcement.

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For those who aren't familiar, Charlie preceded

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Matt Groom as the IFSC slash world climbing commentator.

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This time, he's back to talk about the brand

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new competition series, Pro Climbing League.

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In this episode, we'll go over all the details

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of what a PCL competition will look like, the

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challenges they faced the past five years putting

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this together, and I'm diving into all of the

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finances as well. I hope you enjoy this episode

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with Charlie. Thank you. Please pardon this brief

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intermission, but I'm excited to talk about Madrock's

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you to Mad Rock for helping to sponsor the podcast.

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Now back to the show. Well, how are you doing

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today? Any holiday plans for you? Yeah, a bit

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of skiing, a bit of family time, friends and

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family, skiing. That's about it. Pretty quiet

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Christmas. Just got back from the Netherlands,

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so I'm feeling pretty worked. Ah, for work or?

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Yeah, we had a PCL test event. Okay. Yes. So

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I didn't, is there like anything about that online

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or is it like a download test event? Not at all.

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Not at all. About the test event. Well, like,

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is it filmed anywhere or is there any like video

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to see? Yeah, we took some footage. Other media

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outlets were there. Red Bull were there. So no,

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definitely nothing secretive about it. It was

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at a place called Grip. uh in nijmegen in the

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on the german border and it was great super productive

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but so busy horribly busy but that's fine did

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it go well it went great yeah we learned a lot

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um we were testing everything from format to

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route setting style camera different camera setups

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um yeah it's great okay we'll have a question

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about that later so we'll definitely get into

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that yeah sure But yeah, before we get too deep

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into those things, for those who don't know you

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super well, what's your background in the comp

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climbing community? I started out in terms of

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comp climbing, working for Epic TV and presenting

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their climbing daily show. And I went to some

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World Cups and I thought, oh, this is cool. I

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like this. So I ended up getting a job at the

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IFSC. Since renamed World Climbing, I will probably

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make that mistake. Same, yeah. Ten times on this

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podcast. Okay. Yeah. Ended up working at the

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IFSC for five years as their lead presenter and

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commentator on the World Cups, World Championships,

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Youth World Championships, anything they broadcast,

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I was talking over. And then stopped that in

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2020 when COVID came along and still do some

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freelance commentary, done a couple of Arco Rockmasters,

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a couple of Red Bull Dual Ascents in Switzerland.

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and have also been working on the recently launched

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Pro Climbing League. I guess now that I think

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about it, did you leave IFSC slash World Climbing

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to focus on the Pro Climbing League? No, no,

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I didn't. I think we talked about this last time,

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but I, yeah, I just, five years just felt like

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a logical time to do it. It's a very tiring job,

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a lot of travel, time away. And I just... felt

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like I'd kind of done it and every season was

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still enjoyable but it didn't have quite the

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same feeling of this huge challenge that it did

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the first year. I was kind of comfortable and

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that has its place in life but I just felt like

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I was ready for it. a new challenge so i think

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that when i started ifsc i always had in the

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back of my mind that i'd do it for five years

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because that was i started in 2016 and five years

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later would have been the olympics climbing's

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first olympics so it was always kind of this

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logical time to stop and as time went by i'd

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still seem like the right right time to stop

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and then it was the right time to start actually

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looking into the pro climbing league stuff that's

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when it started Yeah, I would say looking into

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is the correct terminology. I think five years

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ago, we thought we knew how to run the climbing

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league. And much of the last five years has been

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taking it up with realizing how little we knew

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then. And hopefully we know a little bit more

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now. But yeah, it's been a long process, much

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longer than I could ever have envisaged when

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we started out on it. it's there's something

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great there's something wonderful about the kind

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of naivety and optimism of just thinking we could

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start a professional climbing league it can't

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be that hard it turns out it is pretty hard but

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you can do it if you keep going yeah so for people

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who don't know too much about pro climbing league

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or haven't heard about it i guess what's the

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what's the gist of it what's the overview okay

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so the ifsc world cups and the competitions they

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run are great however i just felt We just felt

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that there was space for something else alongside

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it. A new format, a new business model, a new

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way of broadcasting. Really, we took apart everything

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that currently exists in competition climbing

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and we said, how could you make this better?

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And the Pro Climbing League is the result of

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that conversation. Now, without wishing to state

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the obvious, that conversation was pretty long

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and it involved literally hundreds of people

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whose opinions we asked. whose advice we sought.

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But it is basically a new comp series with every

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element of what comps currently are studied and

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ideally made a little bit better or at least

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tweaked. So it's completely different from what

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IFSC slash world climbing do. And it's designed

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to run alongside that, but just offer something

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different to people. If it's going to run alongside

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IFSC, it's going to be like separate dates or

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like season from the world climbing season? I

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don't know. Maybe we just call it IFSC. Okay,

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okay. No, no, I'm kidding. Next time. I'm trying

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to get into the habit. I'm trying. Yeah, we're

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going to have multiple events. So London on the

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28th of February is the debut, but there'll be

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lots more across the States, Asia, mainland Europe.

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There's a lot more events to come, but they will

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be outside the IFSC's season. Okay, that makes

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sense. So what will the format look like? Okay,

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so the format is head -to -head. And the way

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it works is that we have two identical boulders.

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So if I was competing against you, it's whoever

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gets to the top first is a winner. If no one

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gets to the top, it's who got to the highest

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hold. And if we both got to the same hold...

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Whoever got there first is the winner. So head

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-to -head formats have sometimes had a hard time

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because people think it's speed bouldering. And

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Adidas Rockstars, which was a good example of

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a head -to -head format, I went to several times

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and it was fantastic. It was an amazing event.

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But they had a head -to -head boulder to finish

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and they put a buzzer on top and... If you have

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a buzzer, you have to have someone who presses

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it. And if you have to have someone who presses

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it, you have to have someone who tops. And so

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therefore the boulders were generally pretty

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easy. And it was really who climbed it fastest.

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And we want to avoid that. It's not speed bouldering.

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It's hard climbing. It just happens that instead

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of you going, then me going, then the next person

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going, two of us are side by side. But it doesn't,

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yeah, it's definitely not speed bouldering. It's

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hard climbing. But with two climbers on the wall

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at the same time and a head -to -head for that.

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How many boulders per round, I guess? Yeah, so

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there are eight. This is per gender. Eight climbers

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per gender. You get paired up, so we have a seeding.

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competition the day before that's behind closed

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doors that's not broadcast but we see the climbers

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the day before so we get paired up so again for

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example me and you would be paired together by

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the way we have a men's and a women's categories

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it's not mixed but for the purposes of this podcast

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we would get paired up and we would compete on

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a best of three boulders and whoever wins two

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of the boulders progresses to the semi -final

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And then the semi -final is just one boulder.

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So you'd be head to head against whoever. So

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if you won our pair, for example, in round one,

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you would get paired up against the winner of

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another pair on the semi -final. And that basically

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determines who's going to go into the small final,

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third, fourth run, and the big final, which is

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first and second. But they're different boulders.

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Obviously, you have the three boulders in the

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qualifying round. The semi -final is then a different

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boulder. The small final is a different boulder.

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And the big final is also a different boulder.

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So to win, you have to win at least four boulders.

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But it could be five, depending on how the qualification

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round goes, if you win 2 -0 or 2 -1. Okay. Is

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qualification and semis and finals all in a row,

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like on the same day? Yeah, it's all in one event.

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So we'll do one gender's qualifying round, round

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one, another gender, and then all the knockout

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rounds. For example, it'd be the men's semis,

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then small final, then big final. And then it'd

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be the women's afterwards, women's semis, women's

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small final, women's big final. Do you need like

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a ton of wall space? Like it's all going to be

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set at the same time? We have live route setting.

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Oh, wow. So the route setting, the resetting

00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.340
will be done during the competition between rounds,

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which as I'm sure you are currently contemplating

00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:38.799
involves. quite quick changeovers. And this is

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something that we're working on. It's one of

00:11:40.259 --> 00:11:43.419
the things we were studying in the Netherlands

00:11:43.419 --> 00:11:48.059
at GRIP was how do we get that process to be

00:11:48.059 --> 00:11:50.600
quicker? How do we make it super accurate? Just

00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:52.879
trying to improve our systems around that. And

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we've done a lot of work on it and made a lot

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of progress. So those route setting breaks will

00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:00.779
be remarkably quick. It's pretty amazing how

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quick you can go. And I actually think it's quite

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a cool element of the competition. I think people

00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:08.759
in the arena and to an extent people at home

00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:10.860
watching the broadcast will enjoy watching that

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element of it. I guess, like, how do you keep

00:12:12.980 --> 00:12:15.899
people engaged during that break? Are you going

00:12:15.899 --> 00:12:19.940
to be commentating? No. Oh, okay. I think it's

00:12:19.940 --> 00:12:23.100
a little bit too much to be heavily involved

00:12:23.100 --> 00:12:25.500
with the organization and then having to commentate.

00:12:25.500 --> 00:12:27.759
I'm not sure that I could combine both those

00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:33.019
things. Yeah. But... So we've got a few ways

00:12:33.019 --> 00:12:37.700
of, I guess you'd call it gamifying those reset

00:12:37.700 --> 00:12:42.320
breaks and making them engaging to watch. The

00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:44.879
flow of the show at times, we'll want to focus

00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:47.120
on that route setting. At other times, we might

00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:50.100
want to take people's attention away, people

00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:52.240
in the arena. At some stage, you need a break.

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So some of the resetting breaks will be kind

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of engaging with that process. And other times,

00:12:56.899 --> 00:12:58.759
we might not engage with it and people just go

00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:02.500
and grab a beer and have a break. But it's amazing

00:13:02.500 --> 00:13:04.919
how fast you can change boulders with the skill

00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:08.899
team. How much time does it take? I would say

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with enough well -trained people, you can get

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all three duplicated boulders. So we have three

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walls. Each will have two boulders on it, like

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one boulder duplicated. So effectively, it's

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six boulders, albeit three times two. We reckon

00:13:27.899 --> 00:13:31.370
we can change the whole lot in 10 minutes. Okay.

00:13:31.370 --> 00:13:34.690
Which when we first tried it seemed ridiculous.

00:13:35.850 --> 00:13:40.049
But actually, yeah, we've done a lot of work

00:13:40.049 --> 00:13:42.490
to bring that time back. Yeah. I mean, I could

00:13:42.490 --> 00:13:44.610
see it. I mean, you already know where the holds

00:13:44.610 --> 00:13:47.330
are going to go. And then if you just have like

00:13:47.330 --> 00:13:51.049
a bunch of people, it seems doable. It's a bunch

00:13:51.049 --> 00:13:52.889
of people who are well organized and know the

00:13:52.889 --> 00:13:54.269
boulders as well. Because you've got to think

00:13:54.269 --> 00:13:55.909
you've got to put start tape on. You've got to

00:13:55.909 --> 00:13:59.789
put a disc saying top with tape at the top. you're

00:13:59.789 --> 00:14:01.769
potentially moving volumes you're going up and

00:14:01.769 --> 00:14:03.509
down the ladder you've got to make sure there

00:14:03.509 --> 00:14:06.909
are no screws left on the stage um so you can't

00:14:06.909 --> 00:14:08.629
if you drop any screws that have got to get picked

00:14:08.629 --> 00:14:11.230
up it's all these little details but it's actually

00:14:11.230 --> 00:14:13.549
really it's been really fun and actually really

00:14:13.549 --> 00:14:16.750
satisfying figuring that process out i'm sure

00:14:16.750 --> 00:14:19.990
it'll get faster too it's kind of like the f1

00:14:19.990 --> 00:14:23.070
tire changing process it seems like Yeah, exactly.

00:14:23.250 --> 00:14:25.710
I think the record for changing four tires on

00:14:25.710 --> 00:14:28.990
an F1 car is under two seconds now. So that'd

00:14:28.990 --> 00:14:32.509
be cool to see. I think two second bold changes

00:14:32.509 --> 00:14:34.570
may be a little bit beyond us right now, but

00:14:34.570 --> 00:14:36.669
never say never. It'll be interesting to see.

00:14:36.769 --> 00:14:40.409
I could see people finding just the whole changeover

00:14:40.409 --> 00:14:43.690
process cool to watch. Yeah, well, I think climbers

00:14:43.690 --> 00:14:46.929
are interested in route setting. Any route setting

00:14:46.929 --> 00:14:49.009
video always does well. And it's kind of this...

00:14:50.029 --> 00:14:52.590
It's like this mystique around route setting

00:14:52.590 --> 00:14:56.470
because it's a creative science. It's science,

00:14:56.570 --> 00:15:00.990
but it's also completely creative. So it's a

00:15:00.990 --> 00:15:03.370
really fascinating process, route setting. And

00:15:03.370 --> 00:15:07.409
especially when you see over a dozen people descend

00:15:07.409 --> 00:15:12.529
on the stage and quickly swap out six boulders.

00:15:12.830 --> 00:15:15.230
I think that's really cool to watch. And I've

00:15:15.230 --> 00:15:17.870
watched it a few times, but to see it with a

00:15:17.870 --> 00:15:21.049
crowd, I think it's going to be... really really

00:15:21.049 --> 00:15:24.490
exciting yeah yeah that'll be cool and then you

00:15:24.490 --> 00:15:26.429
said that there are eight athletes per gender

00:15:26.429 --> 00:15:29.470
i guess like how did they get chosen or like

00:15:29.470 --> 00:15:31.490
in the future if this becomes a bigger thing

00:15:31.490 --> 00:15:34.970
how do people become one of the eight people

00:15:34.970 --> 00:15:37.929
who get to attend so right now it's invitation

00:15:37.929 --> 00:15:41.470
only um just because when you've only got eight

00:15:41.470 --> 00:15:44.370
each side if we went down the road of trying

00:15:44.370 --> 00:15:46.230
to qualify people then suddenly we've got to

00:15:46.230 --> 00:15:49.470
organize qualification events There's a whole

00:15:49.470 --> 00:15:52.190
lot that comes along with that. So for now, it's

00:15:52.190 --> 00:15:55.070
invitation only. We will invite seven people

00:15:55.070 --> 00:15:57.730
per gender. And then there's actually going to

00:15:57.730 --> 00:16:00.990
be a wildcard event in London, the details of

00:16:00.990 --> 00:16:04.009
which are now on social media at Pro Climbing

00:16:04.009 --> 00:16:07.309
League, where you can qualify and grab that eighth

00:16:07.309 --> 00:16:12.669
spot. And they are more or less open. So somebody

00:16:12.669 --> 00:16:15.450
is going to qualify for the event. wow yeah i

00:16:15.450 --> 00:16:17.990
know how cool is that how cool is that i mean

00:16:17.990 --> 00:16:21.990
i i love that but longer term what we would love

00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:25.929
to have is a pyramid system whereby i don't know

00:16:25.929 --> 00:16:27.690
for people that watch a free ride world tour

00:16:27.690 --> 00:16:30.350
the skiing it's probably a good example of it

00:16:30.350 --> 00:16:34.110
but at the top you have pcl maybe below it there's

00:16:34.110 --> 00:16:37.350
tier one tier two three four and going down and

00:16:37.350 --> 00:16:39.669
we would love to have events more or less in

00:16:39.669 --> 00:16:42.610
every gym in the world that had a clear pathway

00:16:42.610 --> 00:16:45.990
into qualifying for the PCL. So kind of like

00:16:45.990 --> 00:16:50.049
you have in European soccer, if you play in the

00:16:50.049 --> 00:16:53.649
North London Sunday League or whatever, in theory,

00:16:53.690 --> 00:16:55.450
if you keep getting promoted, you keep winning

00:16:55.450 --> 00:16:57.490
the league and you keep going tier by tier, you

00:16:57.490 --> 00:17:00.450
can end up in the Premier League. We would love

00:17:00.450 --> 00:17:02.350
to have that in the PCL and that's kind of the

00:17:02.350 --> 00:17:04.990
longer term goal is that there are qualifications

00:17:04.990 --> 00:17:08.190
all over the world and you qualify for your regional,

00:17:08.289 --> 00:17:10.230
then your national, then the PCL qualifying.

00:17:11.999 --> 00:17:15.799
But not right now. That's a lot to set up. Oh,

00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:17.579
yeah, yeah, for sure. That'd be cool. Anyone

00:17:17.579 --> 00:17:20.019
need buying from all the gyms? Yeah, there's

00:17:20.019 --> 00:17:22.480
work to do around that. But, yeah, longer term,

00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:26.920
we'd like a qualification system, I think. It's

00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:31.460
to be decided how we do it. I would like, I think,

00:17:31.460 --> 00:17:33.619
like Freeride World Tour, a few people you invite,

00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.819
a few people qualify, and maybe a local wildcard

00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:40.940
every week, something like that. Cool. So should

00:17:40.940 --> 00:17:43.579
I like fly out to London and try to compete and

00:17:43.579 --> 00:17:47.720
get in? You totally should. Yeah, that's exactly

00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:48.960
the kind of thing we're looking for. I mean,

00:17:48.980 --> 00:17:53.519
how good would it be if the wildcard won? I think

00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:55.940
that'd be amazing. If I became the wildcard?

00:17:56.019 --> 00:18:00.380
No way. No shot. I don't think so. I don't know.

00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:04.619
I'm not sure this Janja. What's her name? Garnibre?

00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:07.539
I think so. Yeah, something like that. You think

00:18:07.539 --> 00:18:09.890
I could beat her? Wow, I'd die. Maybe she's not

00:18:09.890 --> 00:18:12.190
all she's cracked up to be. I mean, till you

00:18:12.190 --> 00:18:14.549
try, you don't know. I saw her climb a couple

00:18:14.549 --> 00:18:16.509
of times and she looked pretty impressive to

00:18:16.509 --> 00:18:19.910
me, but... Okay, we'll see. Hey, you've got to

00:18:19.910 --> 00:18:22.309
be in it to win it. I think maybe if everyone

00:18:22.309 --> 00:18:25.509
mysteriously gets super injured, I'll have a

00:18:25.509 --> 00:18:28.789
shot. Yeah, I mean, that's really my only shot

00:18:28.789 --> 00:18:32.089
of winning a PCL event is like mass sickness

00:18:32.089 --> 00:18:37.369
or some sort of... mass casualty event which

00:18:37.369 --> 00:18:39.369
means i'm the only person with two functioning

00:18:39.369 --> 00:18:41.730
arms i think other than that but you wouldn't

00:18:41.730 --> 00:18:44.109
be allowed to compete yeah we should check actually

00:18:44.109 --> 00:18:45.750
we haven't written any rules around that i don't

00:18:45.750 --> 00:18:48.049
think we have a rule saying pcl employees can't

00:18:48.049 --> 00:18:51.130
compete so maybe maybe i should dust my shoes

00:18:51.130 --> 00:18:53.750
off you said you're even too busy to commentate

00:18:53.750 --> 00:18:55.470
so i don't think you really have the time to

00:18:55.470 --> 00:18:57.569
compete yeah but now you got me dreaming now

00:18:57.569 --> 00:19:01.410
so if people want to watch you compete how do

00:19:01.410 --> 00:19:04.069
people watch if they want to watch me compete

00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:07.480
They'll need to fall asleep and have a very specific

00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.680
dream. Okay. If they want to see professional

00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:13.980
climbers compete, then the whole thing will be

00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:18.319
broadcast on Red Bull TV. Or, if you're in London,

00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:21.380
even better, buy a ticket. Yeah. The tickets

00:19:21.380 --> 00:19:24.019
go on sale 8th of January. Okay, yes, that's

00:19:24.019 --> 00:19:26.500
coming up soon. Is there anything that you feel

00:19:26.500 --> 00:19:28.759
like... Thinking back on when you were commentating

00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:32.180
for IFSC World Climbing, is there anything that

00:19:32.180 --> 00:19:35.839
really irritated you at that time about things

00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:38.460
they did or decisions they had made that you

00:19:38.460 --> 00:19:40.599
kind of now understand going through the process

00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:43.160
of setting up a competition yourself? That's

00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:47.420
a good question. I think the overall understanding

00:19:47.420 --> 00:19:50.460
of how hard it is to put on a climbing comp comes,

00:19:50.579 --> 00:19:53.899
it's so easy to watch the IFSC and go... Why

00:19:53.899 --> 00:19:56.799
doesn't the cameraman show us the angle we want

00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.819
to see? Why is that boulder set that way? Oh,

00:19:59.819 --> 00:20:02.059
it's so obvious that the zone should be the hole

00:20:02.059 --> 00:20:05.400
before. It's so obvious that all this stuff.

00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:08.059
And actually, once you start dealing with the

00:20:08.059 --> 00:20:12.099
challenges of setting up a climbing comp, I probably

00:20:12.099 --> 00:20:15.339
have a lot more empathy for how challenging it

00:20:15.339 --> 00:20:17.279
is. We all think we could do better, right? We

00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.869
all. Think, well, if I had a comp, this would

00:20:19.869 --> 00:20:22.150
be the format and I broadcast it this way and

00:20:22.150 --> 00:20:23.789
these would be the athletes and these would be

00:20:23.789 --> 00:20:25.490
the sponsors and these would be the holes I've

00:20:25.490 --> 00:20:27.170
used and we'd have this type of boulder wrap.

00:20:27.289 --> 00:20:30.069
And that's great and that's exactly what we thought.

00:20:30.390 --> 00:20:32.930
But then you actually start running into financial

00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:36.049
reality and you actually start running into the

00:20:36.049 --> 00:20:38.529
politics of who will and won't work together.

00:20:38.549 --> 00:20:45.190
You start running into how sponsors get rewarded

00:20:45.190 --> 00:20:47.609
and actually you can't. build the sponsorship

00:20:47.609 --> 00:20:49.150
model you thought you could build and you can't

00:20:49.150 --> 00:20:50.569
build the format you thought you could build

00:20:50.569 --> 00:20:53.869
because of a million logistical issues so i would

00:20:53.869 --> 00:20:57.509
say anything that did frustrate me i have definitely

00:20:57.509 --> 00:21:01.509
become more empathetic about because it's it's

00:21:01.509 --> 00:21:04.589
bloody hard to make a climbing competition was

00:21:04.589 --> 00:21:07.509
there any like specific like example you can

00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:10.609
think of where it was like wow egg on my face

00:21:10.609 --> 00:21:16.630
kind of experience I'd say the venues would be

00:21:16.630 --> 00:21:20.029
one of them. Because some of the venues we went

00:21:20.029 --> 00:21:23.509
to at the World Cups, you think, oh, it's not

00:21:23.509 --> 00:21:27.269
a great venue. But actually, venues are really

00:21:27.269 --> 00:21:30.170
expensive. It costs so much to rent a venue.

00:21:30.250 --> 00:21:32.029
So if it costs so much, someone's got to pay

00:21:32.029 --> 00:21:35.069
for it. So how do you make enough money to pay

00:21:35.069 --> 00:21:37.569
for a venue? And actually, you can't just say,

00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:41.329
well, let's just go in. Wembley Arena in London

00:21:41.329 --> 00:21:43.549
let's just go into Madison Square Garden doesn't

00:21:43.549 --> 00:21:47.289
work like that it's really expensive and logistically

00:21:47.289 --> 00:21:49.769
challenging to get in and out of those places

00:21:49.769 --> 00:21:54.130
not just in terms of hiring them out but the

00:21:54.130 --> 00:21:55.829
logistics of how you get your walls in there

00:21:55.829 --> 00:21:58.509
that's challenging the logistics of how you sell

00:21:58.509 --> 00:22:00.329
tickets and where you sell tickets and how much

00:22:00.329 --> 00:22:02.710
you price them that's all really challenging

00:22:02.710 --> 00:22:07.369
so I think yeah probably venues is the one where

00:22:07.369 --> 00:22:10.950
I often Not often. I sometimes thought that the

00:22:10.950 --> 00:22:13.809
venues we were using weren't great. But now,

00:22:13.829 --> 00:22:17.130
having tried to find my own venues, I appreciate

00:22:17.130 --> 00:22:20.029
that that's not as easy as it might seem. And

00:22:20.029 --> 00:22:21.849
there's an awful lot more that goes into it than

00:22:21.849 --> 00:22:24.369
where would be a really cool venue. What were

00:22:24.369 --> 00:22:26.430
some of the costs you saw for certain venues?

00:22:26.930 --> 00:22:29.690
I think that information may not be publicly

00:22:29.690 --> 00:22:32.650
available, but we are talking, no, we're talking,

00:22:32.730 --> 00:22:37.890
it's tens of thousands of pounds, euros per day.

00:22:38.539 --> 00:22:42.920
multiple tens of thousands per day for any decent

00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:48.259
venue um and one of the challenges is you've

00:22:48.259 --> 00:22:50.380
got to pay for it before your event so if you're

00:22:50.380 --> 00:22:53.200
counting on selling the tickets it won't work

00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:54.880
because you don't get your ticket money till

00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:56.440
after the event you've got to pay for the arena

00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:58.660
beforehand so there's all these kind of logistical

00:22:58.660 --> 00:23:02.619
issues that when you're dreaming of how you would

00:23:02.619 --> 00:23:04.619
do things perhaps you don't think about i know

00:23:04.619 --> 00:23:06.839
we were guilty of not thinking about it i mean

00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:10.740
i remember thinking well we'll find an arena

00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:14.200
that seats 10 000 people you know because i remember

00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.579
uh ifsc as it was then sold out the biggest arena

00:23:17.579 --> 00:23:23.539
in paris um 12 000 seats in 2012 and they did

00:23:23.539 --> 00:23:26.319
it again in 2016 and i went to it and to be in

00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:28.440
an arena with 12 000 people watching climate's

00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:30.849
pretty awesome so we And naively, I just thought,

00:23:30.890 --> 00:23:34.710
well, let's get an arena, 10 ,000 seats, 50 pounds

00:23:34.710 --> 00:23:37.990
a seat. You've got 500 grand, half a million

00:23:37.990 --> 00:23:41.710
bucks. Yeah, that's plenty. It doesn't really

00:23:41.710 --> 00:23:44.890
work that way because you've got to stump up

00:23:44.890 --> 00:23:46.410
the cash to pay for the arena. You've actually

00:23:46.410 --> 00:23:48.369
got far more expenses than you think. You've

00:23:48.369 --> 00:23:50.029
got to bring a wall in. You've got to buy holds,

00:23:50.130 --> 00:23:54.549
route setters, staff, all the expenses of people

00:23:54.549 --> 00:23:57.680
staying in that city. It's not quite as simple

00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.039
as saying if we sell 10 ,000 tickets at 50 pounds

00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.160
each, we've got enough money to run our event.

00:24:02.500 --> 00:24:06.640
Sadly, we pretty quickly learned that that is

00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:10.279
not the simple mathematic equation it might appear.

00:24:10.539 --> 00:24:13.460
I definitely want to go more into financials

00:24:13.460 --> 00:24:16.990
in a bit later. depending on how willing you

00:24:16.990 --> 00:24:19.329
are to talk about all the things that go into

00:24:19.329 --> 00:24:22.809
the financials. But before we get into that,

00:24:22.950 --> 00:24:27.430
just more about the whole planning process. What

00:24:27.430 --> 00:24:32.490
sparked the idea for this? I think when your

00:24:32.490 --> 00:24:35.089
job is to go to loads of events, you can't help

00:24:35.089 --> 00:24:37.990
but think about what you do to improve them.

00:24:38.809 --> 00:24:41.210
And that was just something I always thought

00:24:41.210 --> 00:24:44.680
about everywhere we went. Just naturally. you're

00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:47.180
curious i'm curious and i'll be looking there

00:24:47.180 --> 00:24:50.720
and thinking wow i would have put the stage over

00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:53.440
here or i would have done it this way or i feel

00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:56.740
like the comps go a bit quiet in this stage of

00:24:56.740 --> 00:24:59.259
the format so if i had a format i would try and

00:24:59.259 --> 00:25:01.640
get rid of that element of it so if you take

00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:04.779
the format as an example um we kind of looked

00:25:04.779 --> 00:25:07.839
at all three disciplines of climbing and wrote

00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:10.240
down what's good about them what's bad about

00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:13.140
them okay how do we keep the three columns of

00:25:13.140 --> 00:25:15.519
good and get rid of the three columns of bad

00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:18.099
and you can't do it entirely but how do we kind

00:25:18.099 --> 00:25:19.819
of take the best thing about lead the best thing

00:25:19.819 --> 00:25:22.579
about speed the best thing about boulder and

00:25:22.579 --> 00:25:25.839
put them in one format and we had so many iterations

00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:30.859
of our format um some of which have made it through

00:25:30.859 --> 00:25:32.940
to the final version and some of which haven't

00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:38.059
um but yeah i would say i don't remember what

00:25:38.059 --> 00:25:40.380
your question was actually but uh how it came

00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:43.740
about how it came now yeah um And I think it's

00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:47.039
just that process organically of thinking about

00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:50.019
how would I change this if you could do it differently?

00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:53.619
And I would say the World Cups are great. I went

00:25:53.619 --> 00:25:58.700
to 100. They're really good. But I just felt

00:25:58.700 --> 00:26:00.740
there was space for something else. And that's

00:26:00.740 --> 00:26:03.299
all this is. It's not us. It sounds like I'm

00:26:03.299 --> 00:26:05.180
kind of finding fault with the World Cups. It's

00:26:05.180 --> 00:26:08.019
not that. It's just saying if I had a blank slate,

00:26:08.259 --> 00:26:12.240
which obviously IFSC don't because... They're

00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:14.319
an established organization who are tied into

00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:16.660
member federations and the international Olympic

00:26:16.660 --> 00:26:19.079
committee. But if I had a blank slate, what would

00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:23.079
I do? And that was more me philosophizing. And

00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:26.559
then I met Dan and he kind of had a lot of the

00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:29.259
same thoughts and we just started talking about

00:26:29.259 --> 00:26:32.720
it. And one thing I would say about this whole

00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:35.759
thing is that there's this insane power to actually

00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:40.819
starting something versus having it in your own

00:26:40.819 --> 00:26:44.200
head. So it probably sounds a bit of an unrelated

00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:46.460
example, but I saw a documentary about a guy

00:26:46.460 --> 00:26:48.680
who wanted to see kayak from Australia to New

00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.700
Zealand. And his best friend said, now we all

00:26:52.700 --> 00:26:54.980
know that's impossible. You can't do that, right?

00:26:55.099 --> 00:26:58.539
He goes, but you sit in the pub and order a round

00:26:58.539 --> 00:27:01.519
of beers and start saying, okay, if you did do

00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:05.099
it, how would you do it? It actually, in a very

00:27:05.099 --> 00:27:08.279
funny way, it makes it possible. because you're

00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:10.240
actually starting to solve the problems. You're

00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:12.579
saying, okay, well, you can't do it. But how

00:27:12.579 --> 00:27:14.680
long would it take? It'd take 21 days. Well,

00:27:14.779 --> 00:27:17.380
if you're going for 21 days, you'd have to tow

00:27:17.380 --> 00:27:19.039
something behind the kayak. Okay, well, if you're

00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:20.460
going to tow something, what would you tow? What

00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:22.500
would it look like? How would it work? And you

00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:26.099
actually start making it possible by the act

00:27:26.099 --> 00:27:29.859
of discussing it, if that makes sense. And that's,

00:27:29.859 --> 00:27:33.019
I think, that when I saw that documentary, it

00:27:33.019 --> 00:27:35.609
resonated with me because I thought, Oh yeah,

00:27:35.730 --> 00:27:37.829
that's kind of what happened to us. When I look

00:27:37.829 --> 00:27:41.170
at what we've finally managed to put together

00:27:41.170 --> 00:27:46.230
and how long it's taken, it essentially was impossible.

00:27:46.869 --> 00:27:49.930
But there's just this incredible strength to

00:27:49.930 --> 00:27:52.990
just starting to talk about it. Because as soon

00:27:52.990 --> 00:27:54.309
as you start talking about it, you start saying,

00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:57.390
okay, obviously we can't start climbing, but

00:27:57.390 --> 00:28:00.000
if we did, what would your format be? we can't

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:01.819
start a climbing league but if we did what venues

00:28:01.819 --> 00:28:03.440
would you go to we can't start a climbing league

00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:05.500
but if we did how who would you invite suddenly

00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:09.640
you start putting these pieces together so that's

00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:12.619
been pretty remarkable is is the power of actually

00:28:12.619 --> 00:28:14.880
just getting started on something did he do it

00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:19.279
uh he uh he made it into new zealand waters and

00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.980
capsized and they found the boat they didn't

00:28:21.980 --> 00:28:27.279
find him yeah wait so he doesn't he's dead He

00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:29.200
died, yeah, he died on it, but he made it. He

00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:33.480
was in sight of New Zealand. Yeah, I know. So

00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:36.180
it's kind of a super sad documentary and everything,

00:28:36.299 --> 00:28:39.059
but I'm a sucker for adventure stories and things.

00:28:39.579 --> 00:28:41.519
Wait, what's it called? I knew you were going

00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:43.759
to ask that, and I can't remember now. Oh, okay.

00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:47.319
I'll look it up, I guess. Yeah, you'll be able

00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:49.920
to find it if you Google Sea Kayaker Australia

00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.819
New Zealand. It should pop up. Andrew, what was

00:28:53.819 --> 00:28:56.529
his name? Andrew something. Anyway. I knew you

00:28:56.529 --> 00:28:58.250
were going to ask, and the whole time I was thinking,

00:28:58.309 --> 00:29:01.109
what's it called? And now it's gone. Well, hopefully

00:29:01.109 --> 00:29:04.309
you don't follow a similar fate, I guess. It'd

00:29:04.309 --> 00:29:06.710
be pretty terrible if you ended up dying halfway

00:29:06.710 --> 00:29:09.769
through. I feel like there's a million ways this

00:29:09.769 --> 00:29:11.650
could go, but that hopefully is not one of the

00:29:11.650 --> 00:29:14.869
outcomes, whereas I think sea kayaking, the Tasman

00:29:14.869 --> 00:29:17.299
Sea, you're taking a little bit more risk. Yeah,

00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:20.359
good luck. So one of the Instagram questions

00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:24.119
I got from Graydon Salanders was what prompted

00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:25.960
the head -to -head format. If you're interested

00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:28.099
in ad -free episodes and would like to unlock

00:29:28.099 --> 00:29:30.440
over four hours of deleted scenes, including

00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:33.579
one where Charlie talks about criticism and what

00:29:33.579 --> 00:29:35.220
he's most stressed about for the competition,

00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:38.460
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00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:41.240
Some other perks include a membership pin shipped

00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:43.940
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00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:46.839
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00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:49.660
more to come. The proceeds go back into the podcast

00:29:49.660 --> 00:29:52.200
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00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.680
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00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:58.240
help out non -monetarily, liking, commenting,

00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:01.319
and sharing helps a great deal as well. Back

00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:03.380
to the show. That's a really good question. I

00:30:03.380 --> 00:30:07.180
think one of the frustrations I have with a lot

00:30:07.180 --> 00:30:11.740
of climbing comps is there's kind of multi -elements

00:30:11.740 --> 00:30:16.119
to this. For a start, You don't see direct competition.

00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:19.240
So I think if you see tennis, soccer, whatever,

00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:22.480
there's this person on the right and there's

00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:24.640
this person on the left and they're going at

00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:26.720
it and they are competing with each other and

00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:28.460
you can see them both. And we don't have that

00:30:28.460 --> 00:30:30.440
in climbing. And I think when we talked about

00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:33.539
why speed was great, we said it's fantastic because

00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:38.759
there is this sociological, psychological element

00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:40.680
that there's someone standing next to me. And

00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:42.579
it doesn't affect what I do, but it does affect

00:30:42.579 --> 00:30:44.869
what I do. And I think that's really interesting.

00:30:45.569 --> 00:30:48.690
And I think climbing, having an I go, you go

00:30:48.690 --> 00:30:50.910
format, which we traditionally had in climbing,

00:30:51.009 --> 00:30:53.589
it removes that element of competition. And I

00:30:53.589 --> 00:30:55.430
wanted to see that. So that was one of them.

00:30:56.430 --> 00:30:59.549
Another element is it's not nearly as engaging

00:30:59.549 --> 00:31:02.049
or easy to follow when it's I go, you go, because

00:31:02.049 --> 00:31:04.670
let's say you come out and try the boulder, you

00:31:04.670 --> 00:31:06.609
get the zone, but you don't get the top. And

00:31:06.609 --> 00:31:08.930
then four climbers later, the other person who's

00:31:08.930 --> 00:31:10.710
racing to win comes out. I can't really remember

00:31:10.710 --> 00:31:14.680
what you did. unless I'm really dialed in and

00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:16.839
making notes, which is what I used to do commentating.

00:31:16.859 --> 00:31:19.420
I'd make notes of, you know, Ginny got here,

00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:22.299
so I'll remember that one. But for the average

00:31:22.299 --> 00:31:25.200
viewer at home, they're not remembering that

00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.539
stuff. So it's actually kind of hard to work

00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:30.619
out what the person before did and therefore

00:31:30.619 --> 00:31:32.779
where that leaves you. It's kind of hard to follow

00:31:32.779 --> 00:31:35.619
the competition in that respect. And the final

00:31:35.619 --> 00:31:39.119
thing, probably the most key, is we wanted a

00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:42.349
really clear winning moment. And I think one

00:31:42.349 --> 00:31:45.849
of the frustrations I've always had with climbing

00:31:45.849 --> 00:31:47.730
formats, again, with the exception of speed,

00:31:47.990 --> 00:31:50.529
is someone can win and you don't know they won

00:31:50.529 --> 00:31:54.470
until half an hour later. And the best example

00:31:54.470 --> 00:31:56.710
I give of this always is one of the Brianne Son

00:31:56.710 --> 00:32:01.450
World Cups. There were really strong climbers

00:32:01.450 --> 00:32:03.670
in the final. I don't remember who. And there

00:32:03.670 --> 00:32:07.630
was a young Japanese kid, 19 years old. I'd never

00:32:07.630 --> 00:32:10.279
heard of him. So I went to the Japanese coach,

00:32:10.380 --> 00:32:12.400
did my research, figured out how to say his name

00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:14.160
properly, got a bit of background. So I'd have

00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.799
something to say in commentary. And this kid

00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:21.039
was out first. Kid. He was 19. That's a kid.

00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:25.660
Yeah. He climbed. And obviously I said, oh, here

00:32:25.660 --> 00:32:27.539
he is. You know, talked to his coaches earlier,

00:32:27.660 --> 00:32:30.039
gave a bit of background, did my best to commentate

00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:33.140
this guy and respect his achievement again into

00:32:33.140 --> 00:32:36.599
the final, but didn't really give him like a

00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:39.759
big intro. or make a big deal when he fell off

00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:42.599
anyway the final goes on it turns out he won

00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:46.460
but by the time he won he climbed an hour ago

00:32:46.460 --> 00:32:49.480
see had a winning moment that was an hour old

00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:53.319
so it was really uh i really wanted to solve

00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:55.380
that winning moment thing i wanted you to sit

00:32:55.380 --> 00:32:58.660
at home and go i can see my screen so i know

00:32:58.660 --> 00:33:00.779
that that person is winning they're winning because

00:33:00.779 --> 00:33:02.880
they're ahead of the person next to them and

00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:05.559
therefore they win i wanted that kind of clarity

00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:08.910
in that big moment So that's kind of where head

00:33:08.910 --> 00:33:11.549
-to -head came from. And I know head -to -head

00:33:11.549 --> 00:33:16.609
at times gets a hard deal, but it's hard climbing.

00:33:16.650 --> 00:33:18.710
They're just next to each other. Does it get

00:33:18.710 --> 00:33:21.750
criticism? I don't know. A few people have said

00:33:21.750 --> 00:33:23.650
to us, well, I just don't want this to be speed

00:33:23.650 --> 00:33:27.309
boulder, which I get. I don't either. I didn't

00:33:27.309 --> 00:33:29.170
know that's the main thing that people would

00:33:29.170 --> 00:33:31.950
think of. I never thought it would become speed

00:33:31.950 --> 00:33:37.049
-based. Well, the problem... At a very basic

00:33:37.049 --> 00:33:40.049
level, if I get there first, I beat you. So there

00:33:40.049 --> 00:33:44.329
is an element of time. But then what's interesting

00:33:44.329 --> 00:33:47.490
is when you actually start doing a little bit

00:33:47.490 --> 00:33:52.369
more of a deep dive into this stuff, time corresponds

00:33:52.369 --> 00:33:55.930
very closely to attempts. So traditionally, we

00:33:55.930 --> 00:33:58.569
measure attempts, whereas we're going to place

00:33:58.569 --> 00:34:02.049
a bigger focus on time. But actually, the results

00:34:02.049 --> 00:34:04.250
are pretty much the same with your measured attempts

00:34:04.250 --> 00:34:08.400
or time. Like if you, you can like go faster,

00:34:08.500 --> 00:34:11.460
but you have to rest if it's like hard and you

00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:13.739
fall off. Exactly. Yeah. There's a pretty close

00:34:13.739 --> 00:34:16.079
correlate. Basically, whether we measured attempts

00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:20.179
or time, 99 % of the time, the result will be

00:34:20.179 --> 00:34:24.320
the same. Yeah. Excited to see. Another audience

00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:27.460
submitted question related to this. Did you consult

00:34:27.460 --> 00:34:29.659
with athletes when developing the format and

00:34:29.659 --> 00:34:32.340
what did that process look like? We did. It wasn't,

00:34:32.340 --> 00:34:34.559
we didn't go out with a kind of formal questionnaire.

00:34:34.619 --> 00:34:36.579
I just called up athletes I know and got their

00:34:36.579 --> 00:34:40.820
take on it. And very luckily for me, having worked

00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:43.940
on the World Cups, I know some pretty good climbers.

00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.139
So they're kind of well -qualified opinions.

00:34:46.300 --> 00:34:49.440
But yeah, we really wanted to deliver for the

00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:52.760
athletes. I think one thing that's really clear

00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:56.139
is the athletes have to enjoy this. There's no

00:34:56.139 --> 00:34:58.619
use saying to them, trust us, this is the best

00:34:58.619 --> 00:35:01.530
format. I promise you, you know. Maybe you don't

00:35:01.530 --> 00:35:03.710
like it, but I promise it's for the best. There's

00:35:03.710 --> 00:35:06.730
no use. They've got to love this. And I understand

00:35:06.730 --> 00:35:11.329
it's new and so you might come in with a raised

00:35:11.329 --> 00:35:13.130
eyebrow and think, oh, I wonder what this is

00:35:13.130 --> 00:35:16.230
all about. But every climber who's actually taken

00:35:16.230 --> 00:35:20.489
part in the test just loved it. So, yeah, we

00:35:20.489 --> 00:35:23.909
did. We consulted a lot of the world's best athletes

00:35:23.909 --> 00:35:27.110
to make sure that they were good with the format.

00:35:27.130 --> 00:35:29.110
And we scrapped some ideas based on what they

00:35:29.110 --> 00:35:32.469
said. What got scrapped? So I had a format and

00:35:32.469 --> 00:35:35.710
I will die on this hill. I still think it would

00:35:35.710 --> 00:35:38.389
have been awesome. I think the finale of the

00:35:38.389 --> 00:35:41.010
comp should have been a highball boulder over

00:35:41.010 --> 00:35:47.670
a foam pit. So you get the cool thing about lead

00:35:47.670 --> 00:35:50.170
is the last minute of an attempt, right? Because

00:35:50.170 --> 00:35:54.650
they're just flamed and they're just living move

00:35:54.650 --> 00:35:58.710
to move just about hanging on. that's the best

00:35:58.710 --> 00:36:00.670
bit of a lead attempt to me. The first minute,

00:36:00.750 --> 00:36:03.610
first two minutes, it's kind of ho -hum. But

00:36:03.610 --> 00:36:05.949
when they're really starting to scrap, that's

00:36:05.949 --> 00:36:08.590
great. And so I thought, could you have a side

00:36:08.590 --> 00:36:10.269
-by -side boulder that's, I don't know, eight

00:36:10.269 --> 00:36:14.909
meters high? So it's long. We're talking, my

00:36:14.909 --> 00:36:17.530
math isn't very good, but maybe 20 moves, something

00:36:17.530 --> 00:36:21.949
like that. And so you basically take our format

00:36:21.949 --> 00:36:24.489
and put it on a highball boulder as a great finale.

00:36:24.570 --> 00:36:27.909
And I just imagined like... Madison Square Garden,

00:36:28.050 --> 00:36:30.750
and you've got this big wall jacked up high above

00:36:30.750 --> 00:36:33.869
the crowd with people unroped eight meters above

00:36:33.869 --> 00:36:35.789
the foam pit. I think that would have been awesome.

00:36:36.610 --> 00:36:39.710
A lot of athletes didn't like it. Oh, really?

00:36:39.869 --> 00:36:42.670
What were their reasons? That also sounds like

00:36:42.670 --> 00:36:45.789
a financial issue. That's way more expensive.

00:36:46.150 --> 00:36:49.650
With the benefit of hindsight, that financial

00:36:49.650 --> 00:36:52.469
issue might have become a clincher. But at the

00:36:52.469 --> 00:36:56.679
time, we were dreaming. They had safety concerns

00:36:56.679 --> 00:37:00.599
over it. Even though I actually went to a place

00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:03.679
with a foam pit in Montana, and you can land

00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:06.940
in the foam pit headfirst, and you can't tell.

00:37:08.260 --> 00:37:13.300
The airbags aren't good. So people have tried

00:37:13.300 --> 00:37:17.360
comps with airbags, but the airbag's pretty hard

00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:19.619
when you hit it from eight meters. So no airbag,

00:37:19.619 --> 00:37:21.659
but a foam pit. But yeah, at risk of injury,

00:37:21.860 --> 00:37:23.980
I think there was a feeling that it was a bit

00:37:23.980 --> 00:37:29.500
gimmicky. which I don't think it was, but that's

00:37:29.500 --> 00:37:32.139
fine. That's why we called the athlete, is to

00:37:32.139 --> 00:37:35.440
say, what do you think? And if they say, we don't

00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.039
like your baby, which is effectively what their

00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:40.699
feedback was, then you've just got to stomach

00:37:40.699 --> 00:37:45.500
it. And actually, I think logistically, in terms

00:37:45.500 --> 00:37:47.619
of credibility, if you go out to the climbing

00:37:47.619 --> 00:37:49.059
world, you say, oh, we're going to do a high

00:37:49.059 --> 00:37:51.420
ball above a foam pit. It does feel a bit like

00:37:51.420 --> 00:37:56.159
a gimmick, maybe. If that happens in the future,

00:37:56.219 --> 00:37:59.380
you'll know it's because I got my way. And I

00:37:59.380 --> 00:38:01.159
managed to convince enough people that we should

00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:04.039
do it. I'll die on that hill. I would love the

00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.440
highball. But that's a classic example of something

00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:08.760
where I thought particularly it was awesome.

00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:12.539
Some people pushed back on it, especially the

00:38:12.539 --> 00:38:15.559
athletes. So we scrapped it. Are there any big

00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:17.960
mistakes you feel like you have already made

00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:21.340
in the process? I would say the hardest thing

00:38:21.340 --> 00:38:28.829
is keeping your... I guess your emotions in check

00:38:28.829 --> 00:38:31.510
because it's really easy to get off a phone call

00:38:31.510 --> 00:38:34.150
and think, wow, this amazing thing's about to

00:38:34.150 --> 00:38:36.269
happen or, oh, there's this complete disaster.

00:38:38.070 --> 00:38:41.150
And actually, I don't remember the quote, but

00:38:41.150 --> 00:38:44.710
the poem that if you can keep your head while

00:38:44.710 --> 00:38:48.630
all around you are losing theirs. Now I've forgotten

00:38:48.630 --> 00:38:50.369
the rest of the poem, but the basic point is,

00:38:50.449 --> 00:38:53.309
keep your head together, you'll be okay. So I

00:38:53.309 --> 00:38:55.929
think just staying balanced, not getting too

00:38:55.929 --> 00:38:59.269
high, not getting too low would be a big thing.

00:38:59.869 --> 00:39:06.530
I think we got let down by a few people, so I

00:39:06.530 --> 00:39:08.769
would definitely advocate people to get everything

00:39:08.769 --> 00:39:10.710
down on paper. If you think you've got an agreement,

00:39:11.130 --> 00:39:13.829
a handshake's great, and I like to work on a

00:39:13.829 --> 00:39:16.690
handshake, but getting it in black and white's

00:39:16.690 --> 00:39:19.420
never a bad idea. I think my highs are very high

00:39:19.420 --> 00:39:21.900
and my lows are very low. So maybe I need to

00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:24.800
read that poem. No, I'm the same. I'm the same.

00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:28.480
We've got off some calls. Obviously, during this

00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:30.559
five years, we didn't think it was going to take

00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:32.559
five years. We always thought it was about to

00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:34.119
happen. You can get off a call and you think,

00:39:34.179 --> 00:39:37.320
oh, my God, we made it happen. We kind of took

00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:41.159
steps. We founded the company three, four years

00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.039
ago because it looked like it was about to happen

00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:45.900
and it didn't happen. And then you kind of buy

00:39:45.900 --> 00:39:48.059
a website and you start making the website and

00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:50.840
then it doesn't happen. See, you can think it's

00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:53.559
going to happen and it doesn't. So I think, uh,

00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:57.980
yeah, if anyone knows how to do that thing where

00:39:57.980 --> 00:39:59.559
you don't get too high and too low, then please

00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:01.699
let me know. Cause I definitely am not able to

00:40:01.699 --> 00:40:03.980
do it, but I wish I could. Yeah, definitely.

00:40:04.990 --> 00:40:07.869
Okay. And then another audience submitted a question

00:40:07.869 --> 00:40:10.650
about the planning, or I guess more about like

00:40:10.650 --> 00:40:13.909
the broadcasting side of things. They said, we

00:40:13.909 --> 00:40:16.250
as viewers often gripe about videography and

00:40:16.250 --> 00:40:20.050
production values. What is the best way to capture

00:40:20.050 --> 00:40:23.230
and broadcast a comp and any interesting challenges

00:40:23.230 --> 00:40:26.869
you expect from this one? I would say if in doubt

00:40:26.869 --> 00:40:29.230
at the key moment, zoom in on the climber's feet.

00:40:30.489 --> 00:40:35.380
That's what I'm kidding. Okay. That's one of

00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:38.480
the criticisms you see a lot. No. Yeah. My mantra,

00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:41.500
whenever we went to a new World Cup and we kind

00:40:41.500 --> 00:40:43.400
of met the new cameraman, I always used to say,

00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:46.820
if in doubt, zoom out. We want to see the whole

00:40:46.820 --> 00:40:48.559
climber. We want to see where they're going.

00:40:49.179 --> 00:40:50.920
No problem seeing a bit of where they've been

00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:55.139
before on the boulder. So in some ways, the best

00:40:55.139 --> 00:40:57.000
way to film climbing is just to keep it pretty

00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:59.840
simple, which is to keep the whole climber visible

00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:02.960
and the next move visible and really get some

00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.219
context of where they are. We're working with,

00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:08.739
excuse me, working with Red Bull on the broadcast.

00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:12.840
They definitely know what they're doing when

00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:17.840
it comes to broadcasting. So, yeah, I would say

00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.199
we'll keep the whole climber in view. We won't

00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:22.159
be having close -ups at the key moments, which

00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:24.260
I know drives people crazy on a lot of comps.

00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:29.159
And we are going to have very innovative angles.

00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.119
We're going to put cameras in places that haven't

00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:35.050
been put in climbing comps before. I can't, we

00:41:35.050 --> 00:41:37.550
spent last week testing a lot of this. I'm super

00:41:37.550 --> 00:41:40.710
excited to talk about it, but I have to kind

00:41:40.710 --> 00:41:42.789
of leave that to Red Bull. But suffice to say,

00:41:42.909 --> 00:41:46.269
we won't be cutting away at the key moment to

00:41:46.269 --> 00:41:51.349
show a closeup and we have better angles and

00:41:51.349 --> 00:41:54.389
better quality broadcast equipment than you've

00:41:54.389 --> 00:41:57.690
ever seen in a con before. How's that? I had

00:41:57.690 --> 00:42:01.230
talked to Antonin, who was doing broadcasting

00:42:01.230 --> 00:42:05.070
for the IFSC, and some of the issues he had mentioned

00:42:05.070 --> 00:42:07.269
was when you're traveling around, you don't have

00:42:07.269 --> 00:42:10.690
access to the same camera people or people who

00:42:10.690 --> 00:42:12.969
necessarily know climbing. So how are you fixing

00:42:12.969 --> 00:42:15.630
that issue? Well, I actually spoke to Anto this

00:42:15.630 --> 00:42:24.010
morning. He said hi. Well, for London, it's simple

00:42:24.010 --> 00:42:27.699
enough. because Red Bull are bringing their production

00:42:27.699 --> 00:42:30.800
team. And going forward, that will likely be

00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:34.900
the case. Okay. Are they all around the world?

00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:37.820
Yeah, they have the means to produce a broadcast

00:42:37.820 --> 00:42:39.980
of comparable quality anywhere in the world,

00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.780
pretty much. So wherever we go, I don't anticipate

00:42:44.780 --> 00:42:48.800
any kind of drop -off in broadcast quality, which

00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:53.800
is one of the challenges on the World Cups. is

00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:56.420
that every time you go, you get a new camera

00:42:56.420 --> 00:42:59.500
crew. The IFSC financially aren't in a position,

00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:03.239
understandably, to fly out camera operators to

00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:06.719
Japan when there are plenty of capable camera

00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:12.079
operators already there. So I would say we won't

00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:13.880
have a drop -off in quality no matter where we

00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:16.179
go, but I understand why it does happen, having

00:43:16.179 --> 00:43:18.519
worked in the broadcasting for the World Cups.

00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:21.980
each time you go you take a core staff but you

00:43:21.980 --> 00:43:24.400
then have to get local operators and that means

00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:26.239
you get a variety and quality but that's not

00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:29.679
something that we will have to worry about okay

00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:33.300
i guess i just wonder like how come they didn't

00:43:33.300 --> 00:43:36.940
try to i don't know get a sponsor like red bull

00:43:36.940 --> 00:43:40.960
that has i don't know action sports broadcasting

00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:44.400
everywhere i don't know sorry i'm not dodging

00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:48.059
the question i just don't know yeah i would seem

00:43:48.059 --> 00:43:52.099
like a a good partnership but it's it's very

00:43:52.099 --> 00:43:53.940
hard and especially with the world cups you got

00:43:53.940 --> 00:43:58.139
so many um for a broadcast company it would if

00:43:58.139 --> 00:44:00.699
you think about the the costs and the logistics

00:44:00.699 --> 00:44:03.980
of moving a sufficiently big crew around to do

00:44:03.980 --> 00:44:05.699
a great job of showing the world cups it would

00:44:05.699 --> 00:44:09.420
be a big investment for someone so you'd want

00:44:09.420 --> 00:44:10.780
to be pretty confident you were going to get

00:44:10.780 --> 00:44:14.559
enough viewers to make that worth it true okay

00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:18.949
well um Definitely want to get into the finances

00:44:18.949 --> 00:44:22.309
a bit. I hope that that's something you can disclose

00:44:22.309 --> 00:44:25.989
some information about. Yeah. So how did you

00:44:25.989 --> 00:44:29.849
get financing and sponsors for this event? League.

00:44:30.110 --> 00:44:32.429
League, yeah. Yeah, sorry, I shouldn't say that.

00:44:32.570 --> 00:44:37.309
No, it's fine. It's a slow process, I would say.

00:44:37.989 --> 00:44:43.030
I think once you land one, it's a lot easier

00:44:43.030 --> 00:44:45.769
is one thing I would say. One thing that I think

00:44:45.769 --> 00:44:47.710
we've got in our favor is we have a good contact

00:44:47.710 --> 00:44:51.610
list in the climbing industry. So early on, although

00:44:51.610 --> 00:44:56.530
most of them didn't end up working out, I could

00:44:56.530 --> 00:44:59.250
at least go to people at work at major brands

00:44:59.250 --> 00:45:01.409
and say, hey, I'm thinking about doing this.

00:45:01.530 --> 00:45:03.869
What do you think? What's your take on it? If

00:45:03.869 --> 00:45:06.429
we came to you, what would you be looking for?

00:45:06.889 --> 00:45:11.349
And so we had the opportunity to refine what

00:45:11.349 --> 00:45:14.079
we were doing. uh to reflect what the brands

00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:16.460
were saying which i think if you were coming

00:45:16.460 --> 00:45:18.980
in cold would be a lot trickier you've got to

00:45:18.980 --> 00:45:23.000
go to whoever it is and say hey i'm ginny i want

00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:25.679
to start a climbing league and they don't know

00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:27.659
who you are and that makes it a lot trickier

00:45:27.659 --> 00:45:30.619
so the old adage that it's who you know not what

00:45:30.619 --> 00:45:32.659
you know is so true because we were just able

00:45:32.659 --> 00:45:35.519
to go to the head of marketing for europe for

00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:39.260
big climbing brands and say hey man can you meet

00:45:39.260 --> 00:45:41.920
me in the pub you know um want to ask you some

00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.219
questions and we can start learning pretty quickly

00:45:44.219 --> 00:45:50.039
but once we uh landed a couple of sponsors it

00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:53.739
um it made it a lot easier so i would say getting

00:45:53.739 --> 00:45:57.199
the first one is the tricky bit and if you have

00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:01.380
an in you have someone who can smooth your passage

00:46:01.380 --> 00:46:05.420
then uh then that makes it a lot easier but yeah

00:46:05.420 --> 00:46:08.639
i think for us working with red bull was a huge

00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:14.570
deal because Even now, if we were to go out cold

00:46:14.570 --> 00:46:17.829
to sponsors and just say, hey, we're these people

00:46:17.829 --> 00:46:19.349
that really know about climbing. You remember

00:46:19.349 --> 00:46:22.309
me, I used to do the World Cups. Give us loads

00:46:22.309 --> 00:46:24.730
of money. That's pretty tricky to get them to

00:46:24.730 --> 00:46:26.829
put their hand in their pocket, especially a

00:46:26.829 --> 00:46:30.849
big sponsorship in climbing is not a big sponsorship

00:46:30.849 --> 00:46:34.010
by mainstream sports standards. And it's maybe

00:46:34.010 --> 00:46:36.150
not enough to move the needle on a big event

00:46:36.150 --> 00:46:39.369
like this, the amounts. The amount that a climbing

00:46:39.369 --> 00:46:41.369
company would spend on sponsorship is not enough

00:46:41.369 --> 00:46:43.989
to really get something like this moving. So

00:46:43.989 --> 00:46:46.869
being able to say, hey, we're working with Red

00:46:46.869 --> 00:46:49.989
Bull. We convinced Red Bull that we could do

00:46:49.989 --> 00:46:53.570
this. I think, yeah, that was huge. That really

00:46:53.570 --> 00:46:55.570
opened the door for us. So yeah, getting the

00:46:55.570 --> 00:47:00.150
first one and getting a brand or someone who

00:47:00.150 --> 00:47:01.869
will stand up and say, yeah, I'm putting my money

00:47:01.869 --> 00:47:05.360
into this. I believe in this. So whoever, the

00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:07.699
next person that comes along is not the first.

00:47:08.619 --> 00:47:11.000
That's the tricky bit, getting the first one.

00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:14.360
And so what was the most expensive part of the

00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:16.940
whole process? Oh, that's a good question. I

00:47:16.940 --> 00:47:19.139
haven't looked at the budget for ages, actually.

00:47:19.260 --> 00:47:21.099
Well, you know, the overall budget, I looked

00:47:21.099 --> 00:47:24.900
at the bit I'm managing. I'd say the venue. And

00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:27.260
if we weren't working with Red Bull, it would

00:47:27.260 --> 00:47:30.719
be the broadcast. Because if Red Bull weren't

00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:33.280
doing the broadcast, we would have to pay. someone

00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:38.519
else to do it um so a lot of what you try and

00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:41.940
get is value in kind if you think about the cost

00:47:41.940 --> 00:47:46.840
of um booking arena flying out the climbers accommodating

00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:52.860
the climbers route setting walls holds um the

00:47:52.860 --> 00:47:56.559
broadcast it's an awful lot of money so if you

00:47:56.559 --> 00:48:00.099
can get someone who says i'll give you the walls

00:48:00.650 --> 00:48:02.949
in return for sponsorship i'll do the broadcast

00:48:02.949 --> 00:48:06.130
for you in return for sponsorship that's when

00:48:06.130 --> 00:48:09.530
it starts to become possible um if you tried

00:48:09.530 --> 00:48:12.750
to get climbing brands to sponsor it pull all

00:48:12.750 --> 00:48:14.510
that money together and then paid for it all

00:48:14.510 --> 00:48:17.610
you would be at 10 of the amount of money you

00:48:17.610 --> 00:48:22.210
need yeah so yeah i'd say uh getting people to

00:48:22.210 --> 00:48:24.389
provide things in return for a sponsorship is

00:48:24.389 --> 00:48:28.309
is the way yeah the way it works we're by the

00:48:28.309 --> 00:48:31.639
way we're still looking for uh a sponsor in some

00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:34.460
fronts if any hotel in London thinks you know

00:48:34.460 --> 00:48:37.500
what this sounds great I'll give you I'll give

00:48:37.500 --> 00:48:41.340
you 50 hotel rooms oh that'll be a tough one

00:48:41.340 --> 00:48:44.139
are you willing to give like an overall cost

00:48:44.139 --> 00:48:46.980
of the whole like even just running this one

00:48:46.980 --> 00:48:53.099
event in London uh no okay I don't really know

00:48:53.099 --> 00:48:55.760
why I don't know why I just feels weird I know

00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:58.139
it just feels weird talking about money I hate

00:48:58.139 --> 00:48:59.969
talking about money No, I hate talking about

00:48:59.969 --> 00:49:01.750
money. You know what I mean? Byron wants to know,

00:49:01.849 --> 00:49:04.489
you know. It's hundreds of thousands of dollars.

00:49:05.250 --> 00:49:07.670
Yeah. It's a lot of money. It's more money than

00:49:07.670 --> 00:49:10.110
I've ever seen. That's for sure. And I got to

00:49:10.110 --> 00:49:12.610
say, this whole thing would be easier if we were

00:49:12.610 --> 00:49:15.570
just rich. Of course. Because if you could just

00:49:15.570 --> 00:49:18.289
launch your event and not have to go, because

00:49:18.289 --> 00:49:20.889
what we were doing was we're saying, okay, so

00:49:20.889 --> 00:49:24.199
we think we've got this. So if we can convince,

00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:26.739
yeah, we think we've got A. So if we can convince

00:49:26.739 --> 00:49:29.320
B that A are on board, then B will sign up. And

00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:31.380
if B signs up, we've got A and B, which means

00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:34.980
that C, which we really need, then believes in

00:49:34.980 --> 00:49:37.019
it. And so you're always kind of spinning plates

00:49:37.019 --> 00:49:42.260
and trying to get enough people to commit that

00:49:42.260 --> 00:49:43.960
the next person commits. And then eventually

00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:45.659
you kind of hit critical mass and you think,

00:49:45.699 --> 00:49:48.059
oh, we actually have enough to make this happen.

00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:51.039
But if any one of those people pulled out, you're

00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:53.840
kind of back to square one. um if you just had

00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:57.920
a pot if you had a pot of money it would be so

00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:00.900
well but it would it would be easy because yeah

00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:06.260
of course but it's um it makes me realize you

00:50:06.260 --> 00:50:10.880
know you look at uh i was listening to donald

00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:12.420
trump the other day and he's talking about how

00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:14.880
he's a self -made man except that his dad gave

00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.179
him gave him a million bucks no yeah and you

00:50:17.179 --> 00:50:18.940
think well if somebody just given us a million

00:50:18.940 --> 00:50:21.280
bucks we'd have been rolling three years ago

00:50:22.769 --> 00:50:25.590
So yeah, it would be a hell of a lot easier if

00:50:25.590 --> 00:50:28.010
you had a ton of capital behind you, but when

00:50:28.010 --> 00:50:29.730
you don't and you're kind of doing it from a

00:50:29.730 --> 00:50:35.690
standing start, it's definitely tricky. A lot

00:50:35.690 --> 00:50:38.690
of it for us obviously is value in kind, so what

00:50:38.690 --> 00:50:41.550
we actually spend on this event won't be the

00:50:41.550 --> 00:50:43.690
total cost because people are doing things for

00:50:43.690 --> 00:50:46.369
free in return for being associated with it,

00:50:46.449 --> 00:50:49.550
but it's hundreds of thousands of dollars, multiple

00:50:49.550 --> 00:50:52.170
hundreds of thousands. That's a lot of money

00:50:52.170 --> 00:50:54.969
for me. It's a lot easier to make money when

00:50:54.969 --> 00:50:57.389
you have money. Yeah. Although according to Trump,

00:50:57.469 --> 00:50:59.750
he's a self -made man. It's just that million

00:50:59.750 --> 00:51:01.710
bucks just to get him off the ground and the

00:51:01.710 --> 00:51:04.789
private school. And when his dad died, he inherited

00:51:04.789 --> 00:51:08.590
280 million more. But apart from that, self -made

00:51:08.590 --> 00:51:11.070
man. Yeah. So what do you think you would do

00:51:11.070 --> 00:51:12.869
with a million dollars? How would you make this

00:51:12.869 --> 00:51:15.869
event amazing if you had a million? I think what

00:51:15.869 --> 00:51:17.510
you can do when you've got money is you've got

00:51:17.510 --> 00:51:19.639
more certainty. Oh, for sure, yeah. Yeah, because

00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:21.400
as I said, when we're putting this together,

00:51:21.500 --> 00:51:24.019
you've got A, you've got B, you've got C, C pulls

00:51:24.019 --> 00:51:26.579
out, so then A get caught feet, they pull out,

00:51:26.659 --> 00:51:28.780
so you've only got B, and now B is shaky, so

00:51:28.780 --> 00:51:31.360
you've got to go and get D. You're kind of juggling

00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:35.380
all this stuff, and we were always absolutely

00:51:35.380 --> 00:51:39.619
straight with people, but to some extent, you

00:51:39.619 --> 00:51:42.510
are kind of... putting it together piece by piece.

00:51:42.570 --> 00:51:44.730
You're absolutely relying on that first person

00:51:44.730 --> 00:51:46.929
who said yes to stay yes. And if they change

00:51:46.929 --> 00:51:49.130
their mind, which did happen to us, you're about

00:51:49.130 --> 00:51:51.670
to scroll on. So I think if you had the million

00:51:51.670 --> 00:51:54.449
bucks, it's not even that we'd be doing it differently.

00:51:54.670 --> 00:51:57.030
It's just you'd have years ago, we'd have just

00:51:57.030 --> 00:51:59.090
had that certainty where we just go, okay, we're

00:51:59.090 --> 00:52:00.909
good. We'd pay ourselves a salary so we don't

00:52:00.909 --> 00:52:04.550
need another job. We can book the arena. If we

00:52:04.550 --> 00:52:07.090
lose money on the event, well, that's okay. We've

00:52:07.090 --> 00:52:08.809
got our money. We can't lose money on the event.

00:52:09.150 --> 00:52:11.489
we got a business to run and it has to and it

00:52:11.489 --> 00:52:13.929
has to function so it would just give you that

00:52:13.929 --> 00:52:15.889
that certainty I think would be the big thing

00:52:15.889 --> 00:52:18.489
people always ask like oh what would you do if

00:52:18.489 --> 00:52:20.929
you didn't have to worry about money or like

00:52:20.929 --> 00:52:23.289
what would your work be and I always say that

00:52:23.289 --> 00:52:26.510
I would just like run unprofitable businesses

00:52:26.510 --> 00:52:30.170
that are just like so fun yeah exactly it would

00:52:30.170 --> 00:52:32.170
just be so fun I would just want to put on like

00:52:32.170 --> 00:52:37.329
the most fun event yeah exactly and It's kind

00:52:37.329 --> 00:52:40.090
of hard for us because we've always, sadly in

00:52:40.090 --> 00:52:42.050
the intervening five years since we started talking

00:52:42.050 --> 00:52:44.050
about this, we haven't run into a million bucks.

00:52:44.190 --> 00:52:51.070
So we've always been doing it without this lump

00:52:51.070 --> 00:52:53.610
of capital that we bring. We've always been doing

00:52:53.610 --> 00:52:57.750
it with the help of companies supporting us.

00:52:58.539 --> 00:53:01.719
So I've never really imagined what we would do

00:53:01.719 --> 00:53:04.940
if we had a massive pot of money. So another

00:53:04.940 --> 00:53:08.119
audience submitted question from Instagram from

00:53:08.119 --> 00:53:13.059
climbingggggb. I think something a lot of people

00:53:13.059 --> 00:53:14.579
are wondering, what will the prize money look

00:53:14.579 --> 00:53:18.420
like? I'm not sure if that information is publicly

00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:20.619
available yet. I've got to be careful because

00:53:20.619 --> 00:53:22.320
we've released some information, but not all

00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:25.190
information. The one thing I would say is it

00:53:25.190 --> 00:53:27.670
will be very, very high by the standards of climbing

00:53:27.670 --> 00:53:33.110
competitions. Definitely more than double what

00:53:33.110 --> 00:53:34.989
you win in your average climbing competition,

00:53:35.230 --> 00:53:39.769
your average World Cup. And the other thing I

00:53:39.769 --> 00:53:44.809
would say is big prize money is the kind of first

00:53:44.809 --> 00:53:46.889
thing we want. One of the first things we want

00:53:46.889 --> 00:53:48.670
to achieve with the league is we want really

00:53:48.670 --> 00:53:55.500
big prize money. That's not... because it's appropriate

00:53:55.500 --> 00:53:58.199
that you get really well paid. You're performing

00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:00.900
at an elite level of something. And if the industry

00:54:00.900 --> 00:54:02.920
is big enough to support that prize money, which

00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:05.420
it is in climbing, then you should make a lot

00:54:05.420 --> 00:54:07.679
of money. And I think if you look at surf, skate,

00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:12.460
smaller, but similarly kind of niche, slightly

00:54:12.460 --> 00:54:17.000
outside the mainstream sports. type sports they

00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:19.820
have a hundred thousand dollars for a win in

00:54:19.820 --> 00:54:21.519
their equivalent of the world cup and i think

00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:23.340
that's entirely appropriate and we'd like to

00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:27.480
get there sooner rather than later so paying

00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:31.239
the athletes more is a huge priority for us and

00:54:31.239 --> 00:54:34.500
it'll be by climbing standards very very good

00:54:34.500 --> 00:54:36.639
prize money in london but it's going to scale

00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:39.960
quickly and we actually spoke to this is kind

00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:42.039
of random but we spoke to a guy who's an agent

00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:46.840
for nba players um early on and he said as soon

00:54:46.840 --> 00:54:48.579
as you can just pay the athletes more always

00:54:48.579 --> 00:54:51.460
pay the athletes more and he said because it

00:54:51.460 --> 00:54:57.579
makes it aspirational so we to some extent some

00:54:57.579 --> 00:54:59.360
more than others but we look up to rich people

00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:03.300
if you hear that lebron james or steph curry

00:55:03.300 --> 00:55:05.260
makes 100 million a year or whatever it kind

00:55:05.260 --> 00:55:09.099
of puts them on a pedestal socially um so there's

00:55:09.099 --> 00:55:11.949
that but also increases the jeopardy Imagine

00:55:11.949 --> 00:55:14.190
if someone's going out to the final boulder and

00:55:14.190 --> 00:55:16.409
if they top it or not, there's 50 grand riding

00:55:16.409 --> 00:55:20.210
on it. It's pretty cool. It increases that jeopardy.

00:55:20.570 --> 00:55:26.090
So it adds aspiration, kind of kudos to the athletes

00:55:26.090 --> 00:55:29.170
if you pay them well and it also makes your comps

00:55:29.170 --> 00:55:31.889
more dramatic. Yeah. I'm wondering now that you've

00:55:31.889 --> 00:55:34.650
gone through this financing and planning process,

00:55:34.750 --> 00:55:37.789
what do you think is the difference that allows...

00:55:38.349 --> 00:55:40.710
these like similar size sports like skateboarding

00:55:40.710 --> 00:55:43.329
or surfing to pay out more to athletes versus

00:55:43.329 --> 00:55:46.989
why it's just like not able to happen in climbing

00:55:46.989 --> 00:55:50.449
so far? It's a really good question. I think

00:55:50.449 --> 00:55:53.929
that those leagues are set up as commercial entities.

00:55:55.550 --> 00:55:59.650
So what we have now with the IFSC is a federation

00:55:59.650 --> 00:56:02.449
and a federation is a not -for -profit organization

00:56:02.449 --> 00:56:07.469
that has multiple member federations. So it makes

00:56:07.469 --> 00:56:11.050
it... very hard to generate huge amounts of money.

00:56:13.510 --> 00:56:16.110
It also makes it very hard to make changes to

00:56:16.110 --> 00:56:18.050
your rules because you have to go through committees

00:56:18.050 --> 00:56:22.150
and a long, long process to really making any

00:56:22.150 --> 00:56:25.610
change to what you do. Whereas something like

00:56:25.610 --> 00:56:29.349
the World Surf League is a commercial operation.

00:56:29.469 --> 00:56:31.829
And when I say commercial operation, it gives

00:56:31.829 --> 00:56:34.250
things a hard time. We're not just out to make

00:56:34.250 --> 00:56:37.159
profit. But if you're a private business, you

00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:39.599
can basically say, our format didn't work in

00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:42.179
London because of all this element of the format

00:56:42.179 --> 00:56:44.380
was problematic. We're just going to change it

00:56:44.380 --> 00:56:48.679
and it'll be better in the New York event. So

00:56:48.679 --> 00:56:55.920
I think also the way those leagues are set up

00:56:55.920 --> 00:57:00.480
is enables more sponsorship to come in. So if

00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:03.719
you look at... current world cups you have to

00:57:03.719 --> 00:57:07.079
compete for your national federation so you therefore

00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:09.559
have to wear federation gear which means you

00:57:09.559 --> 00:57:12.579
can't advertise your sponsors as well and the

00:57:12.579 --> 00:57:15.199
the commercial opportunities for sponsors are

00:57:15.199 --> 00:57:18.420
pretty limited you can come sponsor a climber's

00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:21.500
shoes or their chalk bag and nothing else so

00:57:21.500 --> 00:57:25.820
then uh the world cups as amazing as they are

00:57:25.820 --> 00:57:27.599
and as good as they've been for our sport i mean

00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:29.500
wow we've got to climb into the olympics but

00:57:29.500 --> 00:57:34.559
um It's very hard to scale the commercial side

00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:39.119
of Federation events. I think the other thing

00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:43.780
is the World Cups don't get massive viewing figures

00:57:43.780 --> 00:57:45.800
relative to the size of the climbing industry.

00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:49.980
I think if you look at World Surf League, Freeride

00:57:49.980 --> 00:57:53.420
World Tour, Skate, is it World Skate League?

00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:56.119
Could be. Whatever the professional league is

00:57:56.119 --> 00:57:58.460
in skating. I spent a lot of time studying it.

00:57:58.519 --> 00:58:01.159
I've just had a brain fart. But they get really

00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:03.239
good viewing figures. And the more people that

00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:04.820
watch your comps, the more valuable they are.

00:58:05.219 --> 00:58:10.400
So I think that's probably the two big factors

00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:12.579
is you need bigger viewing figures. You need

00:58:12.579 --> 00:58:15.420
more people watching. And you also need to structure

00:58:15.420 --> 00:58:18.239
it in a way that it's appealing for brands to

00:58:18.239 --> 00:58:23.400
sponsor. And as I say, I'm not this kind of rabid

00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:28.599
capitalist trying to... nail climbing and milk

00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:30.380
as much money as we can out of it. But if you

00:58:30.380 --> 00:58:33.320
want to pay an athlete 100 grand to win an event,

00:58:33.380 --> 00:58:35.239
that 100 grand has to come from somewhere. It's

00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:37.780
not going to come from thin air. Someone has

00:58:37.780 --> 00:58:39.900
to put that in because it has to be worth 100

00:58:39.900 --> 00:58:42.940
grand for them to sponsor the event. So yeah,

00:58:42.980 --> 00:58:45.739
you need more viewing figures and you need more

00:58:45.739 --> 00:58:50.440
commercial opportunities. But we're always conscious

00:58:50.440 --> 00:58:53.179
that we don't ever want this to feel like it's

00:58:53.179 --> 00:58:55.440
just a commercial. It's got to be done subtly.

00:58:56.239 --> 00:59:01.159
We'll happily leave some money on the table to

00:59:01.159 --> 00:59:04.159
maintain the quality and the sanctity of the

00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:08.320
event. So it's a constant balance. Yeah, I think

00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:12.860
it's hard when so many climbers actively hate

00:59:12.860 --> 00:59:15.900
competition climbing. I don't really know where

00:59:15.900 --> 00:59:18.559
that even came from. Yeah, it's an interesting

00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:23.840
thing, isn't it? It's very unusual. We have...

00:59:24.590 --> 00:59:26.889
Okay, the numbers vary, but I think as a conservative

00:59:26.889 --> 00:59:28.869
estimate, there are 60 million climbers in the

00:59:28.869 --> 00:59:32.730
world. And if you look at the viewing figures

00:59:32.730 --> 00:59:35.150
for competitions, it's a very small percentage

00:59:35.150 --> 00:59:38.030
of that, like less than 1%, which is incredible,

00:59:38.130 --> 00:59:41.309
really. There aren't many sports where 1 % of

00:59:41.309 --> 00:59:44.070
people who do that sport watch it at its highest

00:59:44.070 --> 00:59:48.309
level. That's very, very unusual. Maybe, I don't

00:59:48.309 --> 00:59:50.130
know every sport in the world. I'm inclined to

00:59:50.130 --> 00:59:52.869
say it's unique. Yeah. But there may not be another

00:59:52.869 --> 00:59:57.869
sport where that's the case. So, yeah, and I

00:59:57.869 --> 01:00:00.010
understand it. I know I've worked on World Cups.

01:00:00.090 --> 01:00:02.730
I'm thinking, this is amazing. If you love climbing,

01:00:02.789 --> 01:00:04.090
you've got to be watching this. There are other

01:00:04.090 --> 01:00:07.050
World Cups where it's not amazing. And not all

01:00:07.050 --> 01:00:10.090
our events are going to be exceptional, but you're

01:00:10.090 --> 01:00:12.630
going to have some are better than if you watch

01:00:12.630 --> 01:00:14.769
soccer, you watch NFL, whatever. Some games are

01:00:14.769 --> 01:00:17.210
better than others. That's fine. But I think

01:00:17.210 --> 01:00:19.349
if you can consistently put on something that

01:00:19.349 --> 01:00:21.809
more people want to watch, I feel like a lot

01:00:21.809 --> 01:00:24.659
of people will get over that. So I think they

01:00:24.659 --> 01:00:27.440
kind of solved the whole thing where there's

01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:29.659
like events that aren't that interesting by adding

01:00:29.659 --> 01:00:33.659
in gambling. I've been getting really deep into

01:00:33.659 --> 01:00:37.159
the sports betting, like not personally sports

01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:39.679
betting, but I get a lot of content about sports

01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:42.420
betting. The podcast needs to start paying, right?

01:00:42.420 --> 01:00:46.619
You go pay back. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I'm

01:00:46.619 --> 01:00:49.480
just so interested in sports betting and it like

01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.039
really solved the issue of there being like,

01:00:52.329 --> 01:00:54.690
boring football games or like boring whatever

01:00:54.690 --> 01:00:57.170
where you don't feel connection to the team or

01:00:57.170 --> 01:01:00.130
you like don't like it's like two really bad

01:01:00.130 --> 01:01:02.949
teams and no one really cares and i feel like

01:01:02.949 --> 01:01:05.150
that kind of solved that part where now people

01:01:05.150 --> 01:01:08.150
even want to watch those games just because they

01:01:08.150 --> 01:01:12.670
have like money in it so i really want to bring

01:01:12.670 --> 01:01:20.670
gambling into climbing i don't know i don't know

01:01:21.039 --> 01:01:23.460
On the face of it, I'm not adverse to it, but

01:01:23.460 --> 01:01:26.539
I'd want to take a pretty long, hard look at

01:01:26.539 --> 01:01:29.900
what that would really look like. I guess it

01:01:29.900 --> 01:01:34.159
is terrible, but man, it sure would work. Oh,

01:01:34.179 --> 01:01:39.280
it works. Yeah, it works. But I mean, in Europe,

01:01:39.300 --> 01:01:42.300
we've had legalized sports betting forever. But

01:01:42.300 --> 01:01:45.880
in the States and Canada, it's been a more recent

01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:49.360
development. And I think betting has changed

01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:51.940
a lot with phones. Back in the day, you had to

01:01:51.940 --> 01:01:55.659
go to a physical betting shop and write on a

01:01:55.659 --> 01:01:58.900
piece of paper what your bet was. With the phone

01:01:58.900 --> 01:02:01.920
now, it's completely instant. And I don't think

01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:05.639
we've, it hasn't quite bottomed out how that's

01:02:05.639 --> 01:02:09.300
going to work long term and what the pluses and

01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:15.840
minuses of it are. But yeah, who knows? I'm definitely

01:02:15.840 --> 01:02:20.409
never saying ever for sure. But I'd want to do

01:02:20.409 --> 01:02:23.849
some investigation. Yeah. If someone wants to

01:02:23.849 --> 01:02:26.670
figure this out with me, I'm totally interested.

01:02:26.989 --> 01:02:30.429
Are you into sports betting? No, I've never tried

01:02:30.429 --> 01:02:33.590
it. I think I'm in California and I don't think

01:02:33.590 --> 01:02:37.030
we're allowed to. I really wanted to try out.

01:02:37.429 --> 01:02:41.130
When you get the new bets, they have the new

01:02:41.130 --> 01:02:43.369
sign -on opportunities and I really wanted to

01:02:43.369 --> 01:02:46.349
try it out. But I think it's not legal in California.

01:02:47.030 --> 01:02:51.019
You know, I love the NFL. And when I go and watch

01:02:51.019 --> 01:02:53.380
the NFL in the pub or at someone's house, everyone

01:02:53.380 --> 01:02:56.820
I know gambles on it. And it's great because

01:02:56.820 --> 01:02:59.820
I get to live vicariously through them, but it's

01:02:59.820 --> 01:03:02.940
never my money at stake. Yeah. Still makes it

01:03:02.940 --> 01:03:05.440
exciting. Yeah, but I can totally see how you

01:03:05.440 --> 01:03:09.340
end up spending a load of money on that. I kind

01:03:09.340 --> 01:03:12.239
of have a reasonable understanding of the apps

01:03:12.239 --> 01:03:15.320
just from sitting with people and talking about

01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:18.650
what they're betting on. They're pretty smart,

01:03:18.809 --> 01:03:21.210
those apps. They're pretty good at making you

01:03:21.210 --> 01:03:26.570
spend money. Yeah. It's a super interesting area

01:03:26.570 --> 01:03:31.349
for sure. I've even seen videos. I don't know

01:03:31.349 --> 01:03:33.610
how real this is because I never actually saw

01:03:33.610 --> 01:03:37.010
it in person, but I've seen videos where there's

01:03:37.010 --> 01:03:41.090
a website where you can bet on games that not

01:03:41.090 --> 01:03:45.400
even very... big games just like random sports

01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:47.659
games or like i saw one where you could bet on

01:03:47.659 --> 01:03:49.579
like a high school football game or something

01:03:49.579 --> 01:03:51.940
like that thing is it gets a bit sketchy because

01:03:51.940 --> 01:03:54.800
you get match fixing you get fixed results because

01:03:54.800 --> 01:03:57.980
there's if people aren't getting unless they're

01:03:57.980 --> 01:04:01.760
making nfl nba money people are really susceptible

01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:03.940
i think tennis had a problem with this a while

01:04:03.940 --> 01:04:07.219
ago where if you weren't in the top 20 in the

01:04:07.219 --> 01:04:10.400
world you could really use an extra hundred grand

01:04:11.079 --> 01:04:15.980
true and so it was open to a lot of dubious practices

01:04:15.980 --> 01:04:19.340
and game fixing so oh yeah that is something

01:04:19.340 --> 01:04:22.139
you'd want to be very wary of it's a minefield

01:04:22.139 --> 01:04:24.940
i i can see why they legalize sports betting

01:04:24.940 --> 01:04:29.900
in the states but it's wow it definitely feels

01:04:29.900 --> 01:04:32.059
like no one's quite sure they've opened the gate

01:04:32.059 --> 01:04:35.239
and let the animals out and they don't quite

01:04:35.239 --> 01:04:37.360
know what's going to happen yeah i guess for

01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:40.079
sure there's a lot of comments anytime something

01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:42.880
crazy happens in a game that it's like fixed

01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:46.739
or that it's for the sports betting or yeah or

01:04:46.739 --> 01:04:50.059
it's scripted i bet they're not always wrong

01:04:50.059 --> 01:04:52.619
people saying that well i mean all publicity

01:04:52.619 --> 01:04:55.960
is good publicity to some extent yeah i agree

01:04:55.960 --> 01:05:00.519
yeah although i feel like a like a comp fixing

01:05:00.519 --> 01:05:02.900
scandal would actually just not be good publicity

01:05:02.900 --> 01:05:05.960
but you never know maybe we could spin it Yeah,

01:05:05.980 --> 01:05:07.880
it could be interesting. Makes things interesting.

01:05:09.159 --> 01:05:14.480
Okay, so I guess back to the topic. Financials.

01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:16.619
I think I covered everything in the financials

01:05:16.619 --> 01:05:20.699
then. What will success look like for you? That's

01:05:20.699 --> 01:05:24.639
a really hard thing to define. I would say I

01:05:24.639 --> 01:05:30.239
expect the PCL to be a professional organization

01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:33.539
comparable to... the best sports league is in

01:05:33.539 --> 01:05:35.559
the world maybe not in terms of revenue but in

01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:37.940
terms of how well it's respected and how well

01:05:37.940 --> 01:05:40.699
it's run i think these should be the best events

01:05:40.699 --> 01:05:44.219
in the history of climbing uh both for the athletes

01:05:44.219 --> 01:05:50.139
and the fans and i just hope that the piece in

01:05:50.139 --> 01:05:53.719
fact i know that the pcl will be kind of an industry

01:05:53.719 --> 01:05:59.320
defining organization and i hope that oh what

01:05:59.320 --> 01:06:03.199
would success look like yeah i mean don't get

01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:07.000
me wrong we have financial and sponsorship answers

01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:12.099
but that's pretty dry uh and uh yeah that's not

01:06:12.099 --> 01:06:14.420
really i don't think what you're getting at i

01:06:14.420 --> 01:06:16.360
think well i mean if you want to talk about like

01:06:16.360 --> 01:06:18.639
success in terms of money that works too well

01:06:18.639 --> 01:06:21.780
no i mean we put it this way if someone gives

01:06:21.780 --> 01:06:24.820
you 50 grand you've got to deliver 50 grand's

01:06:24.820 --> 01:06:26.880
worth of value back to them i mean without wishing

01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:29.610
to state the obvious so If you think about what

01:06:29.610 --> 01:06:31.670
the event costs, we've got to deliver that back

01:06:31.670 --> 01:06:34.989
in values to people. It's not always that easy

01:06:34.989 --> 01:06:38.309
to quantify. Henry Ford said the problem with

01:06:38.309 --> 01:06:40.250
marketing is that half the money you spend on

01:06:40.250 --> 01:06:42.929
it is wasted, but you don't know which half.

01:06:43.469 --> 01:06:47.710
And that's so true. So we've got to deliver that

01:06:47.710 --> 01:06:52.389
value. But more globally, I think success for

01:06:52.389 --> 01:06:56.690
me would be that more climbers watch comps. that

01:06:56.690 --> 01:06:58.570
everyone involved with climbing everyone who

01:06:58.570 --> 01:07:00.929
goes to the gym is at least aware of pcl and

01:07:00.929 --> 01:07:04.010
hopefully watches it and is inspired by it that

01:07:04.010 --> 01:07:06.230
the athletes love it the athletes start making

01:07:06.230 --> 01:07:12.670
real money um and that um this is a long -term

01:07:12.670 --> 01:07:17.690
sustainable league that's here for the next decades

01:07:17.690 --> 01:07:20.530
i think it'd be so cool if the gyms could get

01:07:20.530 --> 01:07:22.650
involved in it i think that would make a big

01:07:22.650 --> 01:07:27.199
difference yeah and i think uh slightly off away

01:07:27.199 --> 01:07:29.800
from what you talked about what success but one

01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:31.800
of the things we've talked about constantly is

01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:34.980
um how do you link what people do in a gym to

01:07:34.980 --> 01:07:37.579
what happens in the comp and that's something

01:07:37.579 --> 01:07:40.860
that's massively missing right now you watch

01:07:40.860 --> 01:07:43.239
a comp it's a comp when you go to the gym it's

01:07:43.239 --> 01:07:46.039
something completely different and we have a

01:07:46.039 --> 01:07:48.900
lot of theories about how you might do this and

01:07:48.900 --> 01:07:53.860
we have plans to make this a reality but if we

01:07:53.860 --> 01:07:56.780
can link what goes on in a comp with what goes

01:07:56.780 --> 01:08:01.539
on in a gym and you can create a synergy between

01:08:01.539 --> 01:08:04.219
those two, then I think we'll, we're really onto

01:08:04.219 --> 01:08:07.019
something because right now they feel so disconnected.

01:08:07.139 --> 01:08:09.659
They don't feel relevant to each other and we

01:08:09.659 --> 01:08:11.679
need to do something about that. Yeah. One of

01:08:11.679 --> 01:08:15.340
the gyms around me has like a, I guess like a

01:08:15.340 --> 01:08:20.380
world cup wall and they also play like comp climbing

01:08:20.380 --> 01:08:23.640
events on the TVs around. And I feel like that's

01:08:23.640 --> 01:08:28.039
a great way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And we've got

01:08:28.039 --> 01:08:29.979
a lot of plans around this longer term for sure.

01:08:32.380 --> 01:08:36.220
Nothing you can get into. I probably shouldn't

01:08:36.220 --> 01:08:38.520
right now, but stay tuned on that one. Stay tuned.

01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:41.340
We really want comps to be relevant to the gym

01:08:41.340 --> 01:08:44.159
experience. And we want to bring gyms along.

01:08:44.300 --> 01:08:47.279
I think the biggest expense for a climber right

01:08:47.279 --> 01:08:51.319
now is a gym membership. And so we really want

01:08:51.319 --> 01:08:54.520
to. We really want gyms to be a big part of the

01:08:54.520 --> 01:08:57.380
PCL. All right. So let's get into some of the

01:08:57.380 --> 01:09:00.800
other audience submitted questions. The first

01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:03.640
one, what will the schedule look like in the

01:09:03.640 --> 01:09:06.920
future? Will there be a regular circuit? And

01:09:06.920 --> 01:09:10.039
similarly, how will you select future locations

01:09:10.039 --> 01:09:13.520
and venues? So there will be a regular circuit.

01:09:14.239 --> 01:09:16.520
We would like to get into bigger and bigger venues.

01:09:18.890 --> 01:09:21.390
We think we can get into big arenas. If you look

01:09:21.390 --> 01:09:24.149
at the IFSC selling out Bercy Arena in Paris

01:09:24.149 --> 01:09:27.310
2012, so what's that, eight years before the

01:09:27.310 --> 01:09:30.350
first Olympics, 14 years ago when the industry

01:09:30.350 --> 01:09:32.970
was less than half the size it is now, we think

01:09:32.970 --> 01:09:38.050
we can sell tickets in big arenas. Again, without

01:09:38.050 --> 01:09:40.529
wanting to state the obvious, if you pay to rent

01:09:40.529 --> 01:09:43.550
a 10 ,000 seat arena and sell 4 ,000 tickets,

01:09:43.829 --> 01:09:46.510
you've got a very big financial problem to solve.

01:09:46.939 --> 01:09:49.979
So we've got to be careful. We've got to scale

01:09:49.979 --> 01:09:52.119
it. But yeah, there will be a regular circuit.

01:09:52.840 --> 01:09:56.100
We want to go to the biggest cities in the world

01:09:56.100 --> 01:10:00.119
and the best venues in the world. And one thing

01:10:00.119 --> 01:10:01.920
that's absolutely key about this is we're going

01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:04.699
to climbers. Climbers aren't coming to us. I

01:10:04.699 --> 01:10:08.180
think a lot of climbing comps are still held

01:10:08.180 --> 01:10:10.800
in climbing's traditional heartlands, which is

01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:13.560
the mountains. But climbing has changed beyond

01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:15.779
all recognition. Most climbers live in big cities.

01:10:17.570 --> 01:10:21.149
and don't climb outside. So we are going to them.

01:10:21.350 --> 01:10:22.949
They don't have to come to us. So we want to

01:10:22.949 --> 01:10:25.949
go to big cities, big arenas. I want to go to

01:10:25.949 --> 01:10:27.949
Madison Square Garden. I'll throw that out there

01:10:27.949 --> 01:10:30.670
right now. I think we should be, we want to get

01:10:30.670 --> 01:10:32.390
in the garden. We want to get in Wembley Arena.

01:10:32.569 --> 01:10:36.510
We want to be in Staples Center in LA. We want

01:10:36.510 --> 01:10:38.390
to go really big. So yeah, there'll be a regular

01:10:38.390 --> 01:10:40.350
circuit, but hopefully the venues get bigger

01:10:40.350 --> 01:10:44.840
every year. Okay. Are there other locations already

01:10:44.840 --> 01:10:48.899
announced for this year? No, but there'll be

01:10:48.899 --> 01:10:52.819
a North American event next year and there'll

01:10:52.819 --> 01:10:55.420
be another European event next year. Already

01:10:55.420 --> 01:10:59.319
confirmed or hopeful? Not confirmed. We know

01:10:59.319 --> 01:11:02.140
what the venues would be. We know where we'd

01:11:02.140 --> 01:11:04.800
be going and we've found venues that we think

01:11:04.800 --> 01:11:08.300
work for us. But no, we haven't confirmed them

01:11:08.300 --> 01:11:10.579
yet. They won't be confirmed before London, or

01:11:10.579 --> 01:11:12.399
very unlikely to be confirmed before London.

01:11:12.600 --> 01:11:16.100
Just to clarify, next year is in like 2026, because

01:11:16.100 --> 01:11:18.600
I guess this is coming out next year. Yeah, 2026.

01:11:18.880 --> 01:11:21.979
There'll be multiple PCL events in 2026, beginning

01:11:21.979 --> 01:11:25.920
with London. Okay, cool. Exciting. Next one,

01:11:26.060 --> 01:11:28.659
when you tested the PCL format, what aspect of

01:11:28.659 --> 01:11:30.680
it was the most engaging or exciting for the

01:11:30.680 --> 01:11:34.300
athletes? The fact that there's someone standing

01:11:34.300 --> 01:11:39.530
right next to you, because it just... fundamentally

01:11:39.530 --> 01:11:43.949
changes the way you behave. If I fall off a boulder

01:11:43.949 --> 01:11:45.489
and I've got four minutes, there's no one else

01:11:45.489 --> 01:11:47.789
on the stage, I can rest for exactly as long

01:11:47.789 --> 01:11:52.130
as I want to rest. If there's someone standing

01:11:52.130 --> 01:11:54.710
next to me who I've got to beat, that completely

01:11:54.710 --> 01:11:58.170
changes. So as simple as it sounds, it's the

01:11:58.170 --> 01:12:00.289
element of having to think about someone else's

01:12:00.289 --> 01:12:03.909
performance because if I've got four minutes

01:12:03.909 --> 01:12:06.329
to myself and I know that I've got to top the

01:12:06.329 --> 01:12:09.800
boulder, I'm only focused on how to use that

01:12:09.800 --> 01:12:11.859
four minutes smartly for me to top the boulder.

01:12:12.479 --> 01:12:14.420
I don't have to worry what anyone else does.

01:12:14.539 --> 01:12:17.619
So just adding another person in there completely

01:12:17.619 --> 01:12:20.359
changes it. So I'd say that's the biggest thing.

01:12:20.760 --> 01:12:23.079
For the athletes, when you're watching, it's

01:12:23.079 --> 01:12:25.619
when people are really near the top of a boulder

01:12:25.619 --> 01:12:28.340
and they're head to head. And it's been remarkable

01:12:28.340 --> 01:12:30.899
a few times in the tests how close people are.

01:12:31.020 --> 01:12:34.359
We had a move not long ago where you jumped out

01:12:34.359 --> 01:12:37.739
left and swung. and they were literally it was

01:12:37.739 --> 01:12:41.000
like they were choreographed dancers perfectly

01:12:41.000 --> 01:12:43.800
timed and then there was a slower move and one

01:12:43.800 --> 01:12:45.340
of them did it a bit quicker than the other and

01:12:45.340 --> 01:12:47.399
then the other one began to catch up and when

01:12:47.399 --> 01:12:50.479
people head to head climbing at their limit near

01:12:50.479 --> 01:12:52.560
the top of a boulder that's about as good as

01:12:52.560 --> 01:12:55.500
it gets are there any like strategies you saw

01:12:55.500 --> 01:12:59.060
come up that were interesting yeah yeah for sure

01:12:59.060 --> 01:13:02.300
and um I think we'll see lots more. I think that's

01:13:02.300 --> 01:13:04.199
one of the biggest unknown elements for us is

01:13:04.199 --> 01:13:06.800
how will people actually interact with each other?

01:13:07.600 --> 01:13:10.720
So we did one test where there was a boulder

01:13:10.720 --> 01:13:14.979
that was kind of hard to read. And one of the

01:13:14.979 --> 01:13:18.000
people, so the pair run out, one of them just

01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:19.880
stepped back and watched the other person climb,

01:13:20.060 --> 01:13:25.239
which is so cool because if the guy who's on

01:13:25.239 --> 01:13:27.340
the wall actually does it, you just look like

01:13:27.340 --> 01:13:29.770
an idiot because you just stood there. but you

01:13:29.770 --> 01:13:31.789
might glean this information that then enables

01:13:31.789 --> 01:13:36.170
you to do it. So we really want to see that interaction

01:13:36.170 --> 01:13:38.789
between the climbers and we want to see tactics.

01:13:39.810 --> 01:13:42.750
You see it in every sport that your opponent

01:13:42.750 --> 01:13:46.630
does one thing so you react this way. And we

01:13:46.630 --> 01:13:49.189
want to see that. I think that's massive for

01:13:49.189 --> 01:13:52.609
us. And it's really, I can't even predict how

01:13:52.609 --> 01:13:54.289
people will interact with each other. I just

01:13:54.289 --> 01:13:58.310
know that they will. And I think I did the Red

01:13:58.310 --> 01:14:01.310
Bull dual descent. Oh, there wasn't one this

01:14:01.310 --> 01:14:04.250
year. Anyway, the last two years, whatever. And

01:14:04.250 --> 01:14:09.170
looking across at your opponent is just this

01:14:09.170 --> 01:14:11.529
whole different world. And yeah, people do get

01:14:11.529 --> 01:14:14.569
tactical and we encourage that. And I'm looking

01:14:14.569 --> 01:14:17.390
forward to seeing the world's best climbers under

01:14:17.390 --> 01:14:19.739
that kind of pressure. yeah that'll be interesting

01:14:19.739 --> 01:14:24.420
to see last one from instagram uh will you use

01:14:24.420 --> 01:14:27.880
adjustable walls like last week in grip niche

01:14:27.880 --> 01:14:33.119
megan sorry is that terrible no i had to ask

01:14:33.119 --> 01:14:35.300
a few times it's pronounced apparently it's pronounced

01:14:35.300 --> 01:14:40.819
nine megan oh can i ask it again you know what

01:14:40.819 --> 01:14:42.539
never mind it's fine it's fine i haven't heard

01:14:42.539 --> 01:14:46.319
of it before it's fine Yeah, you've had Matt

01:14:46.319 --> 01:14:48.340
Groom on here. Me and Matt between us have butchered

01:14:48.340 --> 01:14:51.899
enough names. I thought this was like, okay.

01:14:52.500 --> 01:14:54.739
For some reason I read this and I was like, that

01:14:54.739 --> 01:14:57.060
sounds like a Japanese thing. No, it's in the

01:14:57.060 --> 01:14:59.439
Netherlands. Apparently it's a very nice city.

01:14:59.600 --> 01:15:01.720
We were there a week. I never went to the city

01:15:01.720 --> 01:15:04.960
once. I just drove back and forth to the hotels

01:15:04.960 --> 01:15:08.479
and the gym. But that's fine. So was that where

01:15:08.479 --> 01:15:12.819
you did the test event? Yeah, so there's a...

01:15:13.020 --> 01:15:15.840
The biggest gym in the Benelux region is called

01:15:15.840 --> 01:15:20.600
GRIP in Nijmegen. And it is a fantastic facility.

01:15:21.119 --> 01:15:26.560
And so we did the test there. Yeah, on the adjustable

01:15:26.560 --> 01:15:32.319
walls. Stuff to watch. Okay. Sad. Let's just

01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:35.920
say there's probably a reason why we went and

01:15:35.920 --> 01:15:38.000
did the test at a place with adjustable walls.

01:15:38.220 --> 01:15:41.710
I guess like what... does adjustable walls look

01:15:41.710 --> 01:15:46.130
like like just the um like angle yeah yeah you

01:15:46.130 --> 01:15:51.329
can change the angle like a board uh yeah but

01:15:51.329 --> 01:15:54.550
then we're not using boards okay i'm not sure

01:15:54.550 --> 01:15:56.729
what we can say about the i don't know what like

01:15:56.729 --> 01:15:59.609
what's out there and stuff but but it is where

01:15:59.609 --> 01:16:01.449
i wouldn't have flown to the netherlands to test

01:16:01.449 --> 01:16:07.270
it on um walls that can be adjusted for no reason

01:16:07.270 --> 01:16:12.300
okay Good to know. I only got back not last night,

01:16:12.300 --> 01:16:14.739
the night before, so it's definitely feeling

01:16:14.739 --> 01:16:17.119
a bit second best, but it was worth it. We'll

01:16:17.119 --> 01:16:19.579
be very creative with the route setting and the

01:16:19.579 --> 01:16:22.380
competition. Let's say that. Well, I don't know

01:16:22.380 --> 01:16:25.859
how this person saw that, but is there video

01:16:25.859 --> 01:16:30.199
online of this event, the test event? Yeah, there's

01:16:30.199 --> 01:16:35.079
some. You'll have to check. If you have a look

01:16:35.079 --> 01:16:39.800
at GRIP Nijmegen. nidge megan yeah it's fine

01:16:39.800 --> 01:16:42.399
i had no idea i mean how where does the j come

01:16:42.399 --> 01:16:44.859
into it why is it yeah i have no idea it's the

01:16:44.859 --> 01:16:47.619
whole week i was trying to read dutch i speak

01:16:47.619 --> 01:16:50.420
a bit of german and dutch is a mystery anyway

01:16:50.420 --> 01:16:55.359
um yeah if you go on the grip and i make an instagram

01:16:55.359 --> 01:16:57.680
socials and stuff there's they've got some stuff

01:16:57.680 --> 01:17:00.300
and uh over the next few weeks you'll see a bit

01:17:00.300 --> 01:17:03.319
more from us and from red bulls so yeah there'll

01:17:03.319 --> 01:17:05.260
be bits and pieces coming out from that Cool.

01:17:05.260 --> 01:17:07.579
Yeah, I'll have to take a look at that. Okay.

01:17:08.020 --> 01:17:10.500
Well, I think that covers all the questions then.

01:17:10.880 --> 01:17:13.300
Thanks for joining me again for the second time.

01:17:14.359 --> 01:17:17.239
Anything else that you want to let people know

01:17:17.239 --> 01:17:21.460
about or thoughts on the whole five years of

01:17:21.460 --> 01:17:23.479
planning? Hard to believe it's been five years.

01:17:23.640 --> 01:17:29.060
No, I would say to people, just be excited. Help

01:17:29.060 --> 01:17:31.319
us out. Support us. Let us know what you think.

01:17:31.869 --> 01:17:34.069
We're not stamming here saying we've got all

01:17:34.069 --> 01:17:36.670
the answers, but we're trying our very best to

01:17:36.670 --> 01:17:38.189
make this the best thing that's ever happened

01:17:38.189 --> 01:17:41.909
in climbing. So if you're in London, come along.

01:17:43.489 --> 01:17:45.569
Wherever you are, sign up for the socials at

01:17:45.569 --> 01:17:48.649
Pro Climbing League. Go to proclimbing .com,

01:17:48.829 --> 01:17:52.989
sign up for our email newsletter. Just support

01:17:52.989 --> 01:17:55.529
us, like our posts, tell us what you think, buy

01:17:55.529 --> 01:18:00.130
a ticket, get behind it. Yeah, it's a huge...

01:18:00.750 --> 01:18:04.310
moment for climbing to have a professional league

01:18:04.310 --> 01:18:07.850
starting like this and it's it's happened every

01:18:07.850 --> 01:18:11.689
sport has in some way or other has a commercial

01:18:11.689 --> 01:18:16.069
league in it um and we're really excited that

01:18:16.069 --> 01:18:18.329
this is climbing is finally going to get one

01:18:18.329 --> 01:18:20.829
i think it's going to be amazing for the athletes

01:18:20.829 --> 01:18:23.329
i think it's going to be amazing for people watching

01:18:23.329 --> 01:18:27.149
it's going to be amazing for gyms i just i'm

01:18:27.149 --> 01:18:30.420
excited so get excited help us out awesome will

01:18:30.420 --> 01:18:32.239
be cool to see i'll leave all of that in the

01:18:32.239 --> 01:18:35.390
description below as well So yeah, thank you

01:18:35.390 --> 01:18:38.810
again. It was a good talk. Thank you. Thank you

01:18:38.810 --> 01:18:41.149
so much for making it to the end of the podcast.

01:18:41.569 --> 01:18:43.949
Don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed.

01:18:44.149 --> 01:18:47.789
Otherwise, you are a super fake climber. If you're

01:18:47.789 --> 01:18:50.229
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01:18:50.229 --> 01:18:52.930
if you rate it five stars and you can continue

01:18:52.930 --> 01:18:55.710
the discussion on the free competition climbing

01:18:55.710 --> 01:18:58.710
discord linked in the description. Thanks again

01:18:58.710 --> 01:18:59.189
for listening.