the power boulders can be v14 or v15 and they'll
get done time away from climbing and like not
being able to exercise for long long bouts i
like started to realize that i like have some
kind of depression and anxiety and that i've
just been like self -medicating for the last
20 some years via climbing and exercise They're
just like a waste of plastic. And every time
I see them, I'm just like, I can't believe you're
just anyone's allowed to make a climbing hold
company. Welcome to another episode of the That's
Not Real Climbing Podcast. I'm your host, Jinni,
and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today,
Ben Hanna. Ben is a climber on Team USA and
hold shaper for Pusher Holds. In this episode,
we'll get some insight into the grades of World
Cup boulders, how depression, anxiety, and ADHD
shapes his relationship with climbing, how he
balances working as a route setter with training,
and we'll get his thoughts on hold shipping.
I hope you enjoy this interview with Ben. I'm
excited to announce that my sponsor Mad Rock
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for 10 % off your entire Mad Rock order. Back
to the show! Yeah, I don't know how people do
it. I hate climbing in the morning. Yeah, it's
I honestly I've been recently really like like
the last two years has been recently like been
really enjoying early morning sessions. It's
the afternoon sessions that I feel like I like
perform not as well in. But don't you feel like
more stiff in the morning like at the end of
the day is when you're like the most loose and
stretched out and everything? Honestly, I just
feel really tired by the end of the day. Like
2 p .m. session comes around and I'm just like,
man, I've been up for like six hours. I have
to plan two meals before the comp instead of
just cramming whatever I can in my face before
I go. I'm also like, for me, the morning sessions
are nice because I'll wake up and it's early,
but I'll just wake up and I'm like, okay, it's
go time. I don't have to think about this all
day. I think it's a lot about that too. You just
like less to think about and like less stress
because you just like wake up and it sucks because
it's early and you go and then it's time to climb.
It's like over with a lot faster. Yeah, I guess
that's true. I mean, do you tend to feel like
you're someone who gets super nervous before
comms like it's on your mind all day? I wouldn't
say that I'm like a nervous wreck. I have some
friends that are like nervous wrecks, but I definitely
do get nervous and like have anxiety around it.
In Korea, it was like really weird to deal with
that because it was like, it wasn't eight days.
It felt like it was eight days. It was only four
days, but like four proper rest days. And then
I climbed on the fifth day. So I had like five
days to think about the next round. And like
I went through the whole range of emotions of
like super stressed. I wasn't going to make the
round. Super psyched I made the round. excited
for the round, nervous for the round, kind of
ready for the round to be over because I'd been
in Korea for so long and I didn't really get
to do anything because I was just resting the
whole time. I was like, I'm ready to get out
of here. This bed sucks. I haven't done anything
all week. I just want to do this thing and get
over with it. Ready to go home. Well, I mean,
first of all, congrats on making it into semis
for Korea at the World Champs. That was cool
to see. Thank you. And so, yeah, like, in that
in -between time, you didn't really get to do
any, like, fun things or traveling. You were
just kind of resting. Yeah, I was pretty locked
in. We had, like, two days where we, like, bopped
around a little bit. But I didn't do a bunch
of sightseeing, and I, like, tried to minimize
my, like, going out and doing stuff. I also,
like, went and watched every round, and so that
ended up taking a bunch of time, too. Usually,
I won't go to all the rounds to chill out before
the comp, but I was like, I've got so many days,
and I was also psyched to watch climbing. I just
went and watched, I think, every single round
but one, which happened to be the women's final,
which sucked because it was the best round of
the whole competition. I was so bummed because
I wanted to watch Melina climb so badly, but
also I was like, It's like 8 or 9. I think it
started at like 8 the night before semis. I was
like, do I have to go get ready for bed? And
it was like a long walk from the venue too. I
was like, I just can't be dealing with this.
I'm going to bed. How did your rounds go, you
felt like? How did the climbing feel? They were
okay. Weirdly enough, both China qualifiers and
Korea semifinals, I felt like I had a mediocre
round. neither neither round I was like oh I'm
on fire it was like oh I'm like just barely doing
enough and then honestly in Korea I I got to
the last boulder and I tried it once and at that
point I had like topped one boulder and I'd zoned
everything really quickly and I Was almost positive
that if I topped this boulder, I would be in
semis. I was like, this feels like it would be
enough to be into semis. And then I tried it
and I fell going to the finish. Now my first
attempt and was like, okay, for sure this boulder
is doable. And that means that like, I probably
need to do it to make the round. And I had like,
I could have, I would have like. bet good money
i was like i'm almost 100 sure that if i do this
boulder i make the semi if i don't do this boulder
i don't make the semi um and then i watched the
dude next to me in group b do the boulder and
i was like okay there's like confirmation bias
that this boulder goes and it's like probably
necessary uh and then i proceeded to just like
totally fold under the pressure and not do the
boulder and i was like heartbroken i know i knew
i could do it i was sure that i needed to do
it and was like this is my moment like i can
i can achieve my goals if i just do this boulder
which i like will anyone anytime i talk about
it that's like the number one thing not to do
is think about the goal and the end result and
just focus in on how to do the boulder but i
like fully folded under the pressure got wrapped
up and all of the like you know if i do it results
shenanigans And I was so mad at myself. I was
so mad at myself. The season was over and I like
was really bummed. And then I got out of ISO
and everyone was like, dude, you did it. You're
in. You're in. And I was like, I don't believe
you. And then I was in 21st at that moment. And
so I was like, oh, yeah, like there's no way
that the next 20 something dude, someone doesn't
knock me out. And somehow I like held on for.
the rest of the round and ended up getting like
the last spot in but it was like i was really
really upset with myself because i felt like
i really didn't do my best i like didn't have
my best day and i it wasn't just like a physically
like a physical thing it was a mental thing where
like i i should have done that boulder i know
i could have done that boulder and i like folded
under the pressure and it was like more frustrating
and upsetting that it ended up being like happy
about making the semi because i was mostly just
focused on how like i folded under the pressure
and didn't do the thing that i knew i needed
to do and then the round in semi -finals i i
honestly was much happier with the result kind
of sucked i'm like really not happy with that
result the first boulder is like was one of the
boulders i like had a shot of topping and felt
like that one was doable but it was really just
like about finding the right body position to
like jump and I didn't find it and I was like
okay with that I was like it would have been
nice to have done that boulder and I probably
could have done that boulder and like in a different
day maybe did do that boulder but it felt like
it was just kind of a it's a skill issue but
it also felt like kind of a luck issue like sometimes
there's you find the right position and sometimes
you just don't and under four minutes you get
like you know a couple of tries it's like that
that day i didn't find it and that's okay and
then the second boulder was a lot more straightforward
and i really should have done that boulder it
felt really hard the last move and then i proceeded
to watch everyone else just own the move and
then colin even told me that that boulder was
like he was like that's like a white epi p literally
Everyone should do that boulder. That boulder
is so easy. It's too easy for a round. After
knowing that you didn't do it? Yeah. We were
at dinner after the round and he was like, sorry,
man. That boulder was so easy. Literally, you
couldn't not do that boulder. I was like, yeah,
fair enough. Also, how'd that zone go on number
five? Probably should have done that one. That
was the one I wish I had done. But it wasn't
like I dropped the top or like mentally fumbled.
It was just like a move felt hard and I didn't
do it and that's okay. And then four or three
like felt hard and I didn't do it and that was
okay. I think I got two tops or three tops. Like
for me, I'm not that motivated or distressed
when I don't do the power block that only two
dudes do. That's like feels fine to me. I'm not
upset about that. And then five, I was... A little
bummed about because that was also a boulder
that I probably should have done. Like arguably
in a different day. Wait, you mean number four?
Number four, yeah. The slab. In like a different
day, I flashed that boulder, I think. And it
ended up taking me like all four minutes to find
or five minutes to find just the zone. And then
when I found the zone, I was like, oh, that was
like really easy. It was super chill to get there
once I figured out the way. and that felt like
I was getting flustered and, like, just bad decision
-making. And so that was, like, kind of a bummer,
and two was kind of a bummer, and then the result
overall was kind of a bummer. I was, like, kind
of thought that maybe four zones was going to
be better than second to last place. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I guess it was a high -scoring round. Yeah,
it was a super high -scoring round. It was, like,
weird because two of the boulders, like, didn't
go for a lot of people. But then a lot of people
like last second squeaked out some of the boulders.
Like Colin said, number two was piss easy. And
so everyone did it. I wouldn't say a white at
BP is necessarily easy. And for reference, white
at BP is V8 to V10. It's funny too, because I
was like, there's no way it's a white. Like I
set a white set BP and like we have probably
the stiffest BP in the country. Greg would never
let me get away with calling that a white boulder.
Never let me get away with calling that a white
boulder. Maybe bottom mint, but still. But then
on that caliber, bottom mint's supposed to be
V11, and V11 as a power boulder in World Cup
is crazy. I think we talked about this last time.
Logistically, the power boulders can be... v14
or v15 and they'll get done in a world cup format
in a world cup format yeah like in a semi -final
they'll they'll get tops um there was one in
china that was colin said was like impossible
and then it got two tops he was like it was 8b
from the zone to the top but you don't feel like
you're a power boulder no i mean i'm like i i
have done hard things and can do hard things,
but I definitely would not consider myself, like,
in the strong end of the field. Would you say,
like, that the power boulders in World Cups are
maybe, like, harder in difficulty compared to,
like, cordo moves or slab? Oh, for sure, yeah.
Just, like, because of the, like, what they're
asking. Like, if you make the... 13 or v14 quarter
move and it's asking like risk and it's also
asking like body position like the boulder one
and semis which was the quarter boulder was risky
but really what it was asking was like finding
the right trajectory of that and so like find
that was diff like difficult enough on its own
that the like physicality of the boulder Didn't
have to be that hard. And if it was that hard,
then you would have significantly lower tops
if no tops on that move. There's definitely less
cordo in qualifiers, so I can speak less to how
difficult they actually are. But just as someone
who sets and has set comps and has my hand in
that kind of field, you really don't have to
make... As any other attributes that make a boulder
difficult go up, then you can lower the intensity
of the boulder. Versus a straightforward power
boulder, you can make it V15. If there's an easily
readable sequence and down -pulling holds, then
the majority of those dudes are so strong. They
will go out climbing once a year and just like...
dookie on every double digit boulder in an area
like adam shahar went to uh switzerland after
prague last year or so i think it was prague
and he he had like a hundred digit day or 100
v point day where he climbed like 2v14s 3v13s
and like 4v12s all in a day which is crazy to
me because like if I climb AV14, I'm psyched.
Right, yeah. Like I climbed AV13 yesterday and
I was like geeked out of my mind. Congrats. It
took me 20 sessions. Oh, geez. Well, congrats
on finally getting it. So I guess like logistically,
if there is such a hard power boulder in like
a World Cup semis or finals and you only have
four minutes, that's not a lot of time if you
like mess up the first time. rest enough and
do it again does that kind of do you feel like
that kind of makes it an issue in terms of like
watchability interest because like you can't
i don't know it only like your tries only get
worse from there right if you only have four
minutes totally um i personally don't think so
i i like really enjoy watching the straightforward
power boulders like at this point for me watching
climate competitions i enjoy like when they give
us like straightforward straightforward ish but
like what people would call traditional rock
climbing power blocks um like men's four and
the final was a good example of that it wasn't
my favorite boulder but and there was like a
little bit of complexity and risk um but like
it boiled down to really bad crimp and a really
bad sloper and I think everyone climbed it wrong
I think you're supposed to do like some flip
but like that was pretty close to a rock climb
and it was by far the most fun boulder to watch
for me obviously part of it's like it's the fourth
boulder so everything comes down to it and it's
like all boils down to the last boulder but that
was like the most out of all of all the climbs
that was the most enjoyable one and that was
honestly the one that i like stopped talking
to my friends and was like oh i'm psyched to
watch this this is sick um the other thing too
is like i mean maybe people spend less time on
more time on the pads when there's like a hard
boulder but in a four minute round for a final
like you'll give it a go and you'll either do
it or you won't and then you'll rest for like
the minute And then you'll give it a go again
and that will be the end of the round. And so
maybe it ends up having slower rounds. But I
think for anyone that enjoys rock climbing and
enjoys watching comps, I think it might be just
as exciting. I don't know. I would advocate for
it to be just as exciting. Yeah, I think it depends.
I think for me, sometimes it's sad to watch if
they just get shut down and then that's all you
see. That's also kind of sad to see. It depends.
But then it is nice to like see later rounds
where people like actually show that it's doable
and it looks like totally older. But yeah, I
could see an argument for both ways. Okay. So
kind of a long intro, I guess. But for those
who don't know your background, let's get into
back to the beginning where how you got into
climbing and competing. Okay. Yeah. So I started
climbing with my dad when I was like two or three.
He would just bring me outside climbing with
him on the weekends. That was like our thing.
It was like either skiing or climbing. And then
when I was 10, I really enjoyed skiing. I didn't
really like climbing that much. And then when
I was 10, I switched schools and we had a climbing
wall at the school. And I was like telling everyone
how awesome I was at climbing. And one of the
kids was like, oh, you're not that good. There's
this kid, Quincy. And he got second at nationals
last year. And at that point, I didn't know there
was like climbing comms or nationals or any of
this, anything about, I really didn't know anything.
And I was like, whoa, okay. And I just like my
competitive spirit was like, I need to do that
then because obviously this kid's better than
me and I need to be better than him. So I like
joined the climbing team with Quincy and we quickly
became best friends. And then. I started doing
comps and fell in love with doing comps. And
then within a couple of weeks of joining the
climbing team, I was like, Dad, I'm going to
be a professional rock climber. And my parents,
super supportive, were like, okay, cool. If you
change your mind, let us know. But we'll support
you as long as you want to do that. And I'm 26,
almost 27, and I'm still doing it. You had a
rock climbing wall in your school? Yeah. Well,
that's like pretty rare to find. I actually,
in my middle school, we also had a rock climbing
wall, which was super strange thinking back on
it because like nobody has a rock climbing wall
in school. No, totally. I think my dad actually
built it. And he's like, he's a super, super
talented. I'm trying to think of the right word.
He's really good at building things and doing
things. And this is kind of a tangent, but, and
maybe a great, yeah, it's kind of a tangent,
but he was always building stuff for me and my
sister and like the school and stuff. And I'm
always building crazy like gates and stuff. Okay.
And decks and all kind of everything, all the
things. Yeah. It was like a super alternative
school. This kind of ties back into it. I was.
super ADHD as a kid, still am. And so my parents
quickly realized that like also super dyslexic.
So like the first school, basically my parents
were like, we're putting him in private school.
And so like he doesn't just get left behind because
if he goes to public school, like he will never
learn to read and he'll like never get anywhere
in life because I was just always bouncing off
the walls and like. Couldn't read and so like
they put me in this super alternative school
called Little Earth and it was like this massive
they had this huge playground and the School
was like structured around a lot of like outdoor
playtime And then even in that sits like situation
I had to be like have special needs like the
teachers would pull me aside and be like, okay,
go run three laps around the playground because
you're distracting all the kids and you obviously
need to move for a bit. But yeah, it was pretty
funny. But yeah, my dad ended up building a climbing
wall for it. And I think that was like, they
built a climbing wall and then I immediately
was like, okay, I'm really going to climb. Okay.
And since you went into it a little bit, you
mentioned before you kind of recently felt like
you used climbing as like self -medication for
ADHD. What does that kind of look like for you?
Growing up, I guess the best way to tell the
story is like, as far as that goes is last year,
I like went back home and my dad and me went
climbing and like on the road trip or drive to
the crag, he was like, hey, we have this hard
conversation. Oh, God. Okay. He was like, recently
me and my mom found out that we probably have
ADHD. Yeah, I know. We also kind of think that
you possibly have it. And I was like, dad, we
know. That's why I went to all those special
schools as a kid is because I couldn't sit still
all day. They had to pay someone a bunch of money
to make sure I would learn anything. I always
knew I had ADHD and it's always been a part of
my life and we just kind of decided not to. medicaid
for it i kind of and that was like the funny
part of that conversation was they were like
we think you have adhd we knew this i thought
we just decided as a family we weren't going
to put me on medication he was like no which
i thought was hilarious because i've always known
um and i was just like my parents won't put me
on medication but it does sound nice because
i would love to be able to do what you guys do
which is sit down and write um but then The other,
like, I think more applicable to, like, what
I've learned about my climbing is I also have
other family members that, like, have struggled
with, like, depression, anxiety. And I always
thought that was kind of, like, their thing and
I was fine. And then after, like, taking time
away from climbing and, like, not being able
to exercise for long bouts, I, like, started
to realize that I, like, probably also have some
kind of you know depression and anxiety and that
i've just been like self -medicating for the
last 20 some years via climbing and exercise
using the dopamine from exercising to like i
see counterbalance the lack of dopamine that
my brain produces yeah makes sense which like
i think has structured and created a lot of the
routines that i've created around climbing um
which would include like going to the gym at
nine o 'clock at night after a long day of work
um and like just absurd amounts of like just
absurd things that i like also recently realized
because me and my girlfriend moved in together
and so we're like planning and scheduling around
each other she's like you're crazy like why are
you doing this and i was like i don't know it's
just how i live my life And it's like because
I need to get outside every day and do something
like multiple times a day to like get that dopamine.
I guess does it kind of feel like you're like
one reliable source of joy in life? For sure.
I wouldn't say it's my like only source of joy
in life, but I will like find myself sinking
into like, you know, bits of like anxiety or
depression and then be like and realize that
like I just need to go. do something outside
or like go to the gym and exercise and then i
feel significantly better why that is i don't
know i haven't like been tested or gone like
i just have been kind of making correlations
between how i feel and how i what i do i'm like
okay like uh i do have weird gym routines and
i also feel really bad when i don't do things
outside or exercise and i'm sure everyone is
like yeah i feel bad when i don't do things like
go outside But it's, like, I think to another
level of, like, I'll, like, really start to hate
my life. I'm like, oh, it's because I didn't
go out. I didn't exercise. I need to go to the
gym. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Which could
be a bad thing, but also I feel like it's partially
part of my success in climbing is the fact that,
like, I'm just constantly going to the gym. Sometimes
it's really useless time in the gym. It's, like,
not beneficial. time in the gym like non -effective
really yeah like there's definitely an effective
way to get everything done and be an athlete
you know be an athlete and then there's like
I have to go to the gym three days a week or
not three days a week three times a day and I'm
mill around for a long time and I'm just like
doing random things that like are not that but
it's just like I need to go to do something to
feel good well yeah thank you for sharing that
first of all I think that There's probably a
lot of people who can relate to that and experience
something similar. Do you like have plans to
get medicated, you think? Or does this work out
all right for you? I don't have any plans on
getting medicated. I think about it often. I
don't have really any interest in medicating
for like depression or anxiety. Although like
sometimes I'm like, this sucks. It's pretty manageable
and I've been self -medicating for so long and
at no point I'm ever like the super depressive
dude who walks around. It's never gotten so bad
that I'm like, oh, I need to get medicated because
it's super bad. It's mostly just like I hadn't
started to notice it and was like, oh, that probably
explains my behaviors. I've thought about ADHD
on and off and it could be really nice to get
medicated for that. it just sounds like a lot
of work and also i'm not like really sure if
i'm like the benefits outweigh the cons and maybe
there are no cons i don't know it's just been
something i've been like programmed to not like
i'm like kind of scared of medicating for that
and i'm like well i'm doing fine so far so like
do i really need to like mess with it or yeah
so i just like I've kind of structured my life
around not needing to do the things that I struggle
with. And like, I think we talked about this
last time was like a couple times a year. It
really sucks because I like, you know, can't
sit down and write. So like taxes, those suck.
Those are like the bane of my existence because
like the act of like sitting down and typing
is like really difficult for me. And like focusing
long enough to like. do something i'm not interested
in doing taxes really hard so like currently
i still haven't filed last year's taxes i filed
like an extension but like yeah like it's it's
bad but it's like one time a year i need to just
like do the thing that sucks really bad but then
the rest of my life like i don't really need
i've like gone out of my way to structure my
life or in such a way that i like don't need
to do things i have a hard time doing yeah i
mean i think there might be some con i mean i
don't really know what the cons are i mean now
i'm just speculating because i'm not a doctor
but you should probably ask a doctor i you probably
should it's one of the things i'm really bad
at is like scheduling doctor's appointments so
that's probably why i haven't done it yet and
also i guess just want to put a disclaimer that
by self -medicating you just mean like through
climbing and not just like taking random medications
no yeah i yeah no just just climbing just excessive
amounts of exercise yeah so i guess with your
self -medicating for adhd and climbing what does
your training schedule end up looking like or
is it really just like you kind of go with the
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to the show. This is probably also a byproduct
of the ADHD is I just really go by the flow.
So it could be more structured. I've had structured
plans. Right now, I don't have a coach that writes
me a training plan. So I don't have a structured
plan. The other thing that's changed recently
is last January, I started working full time.
As a route setter and as like front desk of the
gym. And it is like very time consuming. And
so I've had to cut back probably like 60 to 70
% of my training. Oh, geez. Which, yeah, is a
lot. I like have been in this constant state
of like I'm getting good results, but I'm also
in like constant anxiety that I'm not training
enough for the last year, which is kind of a
bummer. because I'm just like yeah in a constant
state of like I really should have trained today
and I should have trained yesterday and I'm always
tired and this sucks and like I'm not doing enough
and I'm like yeah I'm not doing enough but also
I'm in the best shape of my life and I'm getting
good results so part of me still like fires right
back with like well how good could it be if you
were were training enough so I don't know, but
right now it's not a lot. Um, it's, I set two
days a week. So those are like two of my climbing
days. And then I climb when I can, um, between
like most of it's like schedule, most of it's
schedule and another part of it's just like dealing
with being tired. Like I, I can't climb after
I work. I just like don't have enough energy
after. So the sessions are just like worthless.
So I might as well just rest and then wait for
a day that I have energy to climb. So that's
mostly what I mean by like I climb when I can
because it's like the days that I have energy
to climb, I climb, I train. And then the days
that I don't, I just rest. So like how many climbing
days would you say a week? So last week I did
the comp. Saturday, Sunday. No. All day Saturday.
And then I rested Sunday. And then I sat Monday,
Tuesday, Thursday. And then I tried to climb
Thursday night and it was bad. Yeah. And then
I rested Friday, Saturday. And then I climbed
yesterday. And then I tried to do a session today
and I was wrecked. So it was like... pretty bad
I went in and like warmed up essentially and
I was like it's just not worth my time and went
home and then I'll set tomorrow and Thursday
and then compete Friday Saturday I mean so you
count like setting days as climbing days because
like setting is a totally different exhaustion
to like training yeah exactly I I've started
to count them as climbing days only because if
I don't my climbing days look really bad so it's
like And also I'm still in good shape and like
still getting stronger. So I assume that part
of it's from setting. It's not optimized, but
like I am still, they do still count as climbing
days to me. Unless they're like, if we do like
a slab day where we're like super low level stuff.
But even then I'm still like, it's, it's. I might
as well just go to the TC and like do, it'd be
the same as going to the TC and doing like a
no hands day. You also implemented a mint circuit.
And so quite frequently I'll like set a mint
boulder, which is like between V11 and B15 and
then like four on it all day. So that's like
counts as to me as max bouldering. Wow. Well,
it's kind of crazy to hear that you really don't
get like that many. training specific days. I
feel like maybe back in the day, it sounded like
people were more lax about their climbing competitions
and training for it. But nowadays, I hear a lot
of more athletes saying that they're doing like
five days a week, like all day in the gym with
like specific boulder set for them, things like
that. So it's kind of crazy to hear that you
kind of have this wild schedule and still manage
to even make it into like semis. Kind of crazy
to hear. Yeah, I don't know why it's working
for me. And to throw another curveball at you,
my climbing up until team trials was, I did six
weeks at Jumbo Love, climbing only on that route
every other day. And then I did, I took five
days off, and then I went to, Spain and climbed
like two days on, one day off, or one day on,
one day off for a month just in Spain on a rope.
And then I took eight days off. And then the
month leading up to team trials, I only set during
the week, Monday, Tuesday. And then I would drive
out to the hurricane and climb Friday, Saturday,
or Saturday, Sunday. both days and then come
home and do just setting and that was like the
only training I did leading up to team trials
and then the last two weeks before team trials
I took a break on my lunch break from setting
and ran across the street and like I would like
I finished setting at 11 ran across the street
pulled on the hangboard and then did my like
did a mock round and then would run straight
back and finish setting because I had like an
hour -long break and that was like the only TC
sessions And climbing training that I did leading
up to team trials. And that was it. That was
all I did. So I have no idea why. Yeah, I have
all of my ideas about training have gone out
the window. Because before that, I did four years
of pretty much no work, just TC. And that was
all I did. I just trained at the TC. three to
four or five days a week for like years and was
getting mediocre results. And then I stopped
doing that and started climbing outside and setting.
Well, I mean, I'm sure that those years still
like paid off in a way. For sure. Yeah. It still
helps you have that like baseline for sure. But
yeah. Wow. That is crazy to hear. And it does
still make me wonder like. How much better you
would be if you had the same crazy training routine
as a lot of people do. Yeah. I try not to think
about that because currently I really need my
job. Yeah. Unfortunately, money is an important
part. Unless someone listening has another solution.
Yeah. I need a job. Yeah. Unfortunately, life
moves on and we all need a job to live as well.
Yeah. Well, yeah. So going into a bit more about
like World Cups and USA climbing as well. I heard
in another interview that you actually prefer
lead climbing, but you have only been doing bouldering.
So what's what happened there? Yeah, that's a
funny one. So for a couple of years, I trained
almost exclusively lead. I would still boulder,
but. I focused most of my effort on competition
lead climbing. Year after year, I would show
up to nationals and team trials in the best shape
of my life and then not make the team and then
make the team in bouldering. I'd be like, I guess
we're doing another year of bouldering and then
train all year for a lead and then show up and
bomb. lead nationals and team trials and make
the lead team like even this year like i said
all of my training up till team trials was uh
climbing outside on a rope like i i climbed outside
on a rope for three or four months that was like
all i did and i was in really good shape i think
i was on like fourth or third place on a day
in america As far as like the like ranking, I
was like in really good shape. I had climbed
a bunch of hard routes. I was super fit and super
ready for lead team trials. And I got like 24th.
And I was like, cool, that was team trials. And
then I won that bouldering, which happened to
be the only result that would have put me on
the team. And so then I did bouldering World
Cups again. Yeah, what do you think it was that
makes you, I don't know, like, what's the word?
Not, I can't think of a nice way to say it. I
see there's not a nice way to say it. How to
stop choking on League Clubs. Yeah, I don't know.
I would love to figure that out because I think
I could be quite good at League World Cups if
I could figure it out. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly
what it is. It's just like straight choking in
the round. I think the thing that... I don't
know how to mentally change it, but the two things
that I think play into it are as far as bouldering
goes, even in a World Cup, I don't feel like
I have to do the really hard power boulder. You
didn't have to do boulders. You never have to
do the power boulder unless you want to win world
championships. That was the only comp I can think
of this year. Someone will correct me if I'm
wrong. You had to do the power boulder if you
needed to win. But as far as my goals go, I don't
need to do the B14. And my strong suit is figuring
out things fast and being good at easier boulders.
So as far as World Cups go or competition rounds
go, the boulders, unless you're in the power
boulder, aren't that difficult. They're in my
physical capability of doing them within four
minutes. And so I think I excel at doing what
I can do fast. and that's why i like do well
in bouldering rounds um in lead climbing i think
i do not excel at like flash attempts like i
don't think that's my i'm really good at like
projecting and much i like really enjoy climbing
really hard things and like trying hard things
for a long time and figuring out and being really
fit and dealing with yeah really hard things
but in like lead competitions it's like uh only
one try and so it's like all just about flashing
um and then the other thing that i think plays
into it is the style of um lead climbing which
is funny enough i think you have to be like really
strong to be a lead climber because it's just
more straightforward and so like for lead climbing
it's like in competition They're like power enduro
routes. They're short power enduro routes. And
so you just have to be able to climb like 8C
plus or 9A power routes first try. Which just
means it's like Yannick excels in lead climbing
because he's just one of the strongest dudes.
Period. And so all he needs is a little bit of
fitness and he can just power through these lead
routes. And he'll argue about that for sure.
I'm sure that he's like, no, I'm in lead shape.
I've been lead climbing. But I'm like, no, dude.
You're just stupidly strong. And so the moves
are just easier for you. Where for me, I don't
know. I just like short power indoor routes are
not my go -to route. So I think it has a stack
of things. It's like, A, short power indoor routes,
not my thing. B, first try, also not my thing.
C. I get stressed and choke. Yeah. So I guess
it's interesting that I guess you don't really
like consider yourself like a strong climber.
I mean, I, I, it depends on who I'm comparing
myself against because like there's some groups
that I'm super, I feel super strong in, but like
as far as like the overall world where we're
comparing myself to like the best of the best,
I don't think that I'm like. you know like i'm
not climbing v17 right now i don't know maybe
i'm strong but like and honestly this year too
i feel a lot stronger than i have in the past
like now i'm like oh i can do like the harder
moves on the circuit given the right circumstance
but so i guess i mean like you don't consider
like you consider yourself um better at do or
like learning movement compared to just like
brute force strength kind of yeah yeah So I guess
I find that maybe not like surprising, but I'm
kind of wondering like how that plays into you
also thinking that you prefer seeing more old
school power boulders in terms of like setting.
Yeah, it's a funny conundrum because it's not
what I like will excel at, but I just really
enjoy watching it. Okay. I just like really enjoy
watching it. Climbing on it generally is a little
bit less fun for me because like the straightforward
climbing boulders we've had this year, I haven't
been able to start. Like we had one in Innsbruck
and I like couldn't start the boulder. But it
was sick. I was like geeking on the mat. Like
this is so sick, dude. It's like a drive -by
to a 20 mil crib. This is so tight. But yeah,
I know. I just like, I mean, I don't know. I've
watched a lot of World Cups. I've been to a lot
of comps. I've seen the sport like change and
grow and go through all these different iterations.
And so like it's not in my best interest, but
I like just think that it's way cooler. And I'm
not saying I don't like where the sport is now.
I think that there's like some really cool movement
going on and some really cool, like a lot of
it's technology, like dual techs. thermal molded
holds um like different forms of fiberglass really
cool stuff but i think that it's like overwhelmingly
in one direction and i would love to see some
diversity in the climbing comp because like what
made those jumps so sick is how different it
was from like what we were used to seeing And
it like, I mean, I watched the sport change over
the last 20 years. Like I remember like when
run jumps were like the thing and it was like
so sick and like, dude, you can grab a jug and
you can run across a bunch of volumes and this
is so sick. And then like, then they were like,
well, what if instead of going from a jug and
then running across a bunch of volumes and grabbing
a jug, the hold was directional. So you had to
like run. cross a bunch of volumes and then grab
a directional hold and then do some like weird
thing with your hand where you had to grab like
three holds or it was like two holds and then
it was like what if we go four holds and then
five holds and then what if we go like three
holds this way but you can't stop so you have
to go back to the right and like it was sick
i like watched it happen and it's been really
cool to watch and i love climbing on it but i
feel like we're doing so much of that that there's
like the other stuff has gotten left out. Like
the example I gave was like just jumping to a
pinch, just like square climbing on pinches.
Like there was a boulder at ABS Nationals 15
or 16 that Daniel went on, and it was like the
orange Technic pinches. I think they're like
the fatty, tall, long pinches. and I was like
I would just give anything to see another one
of those boulders on the wall just once just
like you know one boulder in the season where
it was just like grab pinch jump to pinch drive
by to pinch or like more crimping I think that
would be really cool like to like I mean show
how far we will like count how many crimps we
climb on in the season like oh yeah this world
cup we grabbed a crimp And I feel like that's
kind of a bummer where you're like, you can count
on one hand, the amount of crimps you grabbed
the whole competition. Like that feels like it's
missing something. There's like a missing a little
bit of diversity. And I like doing quarter moves
and I like doing run across jumps and I like
dual, I love dual techs, but I would also like
to be challenged and like get the chance to see
people climb on or get the opportunity to climb
on. like frontal crimp climbing well do you feel
like this year they've been setting a little
bit more like old school boulders maybe or like
power it's been getting better it's been getting
better um i think the last podcast i went on
was with gnarly right before the season started
and i was like my predictions are we see some
more rock climbing okay because i think i was
hoping the sport would turn back that way and
i didn't get to see as many as i wanted but i
saw more which was really cool like um China,
semi -final, blue boulder, just straight crimp
rig. That was one of the sickest boulders all
season for me to climb. I don't know. I was like
really psyched. How was the separation on that
one? I'm trying to remember. It was a long time
ago. Kachow, semi -final, men, boulder, three.
It had one, two flashes. Whoa, maybe not the
best separation. Two flashes, which is crazy.
So three tops, two flashes, one second attempt,
and then a handful of zones, and then a bunch
of no zones. And then boulder, two head. That's
actually super sick. Me and Mejdi and Tomoa were
the only people to flash the second boulder.
That's wild. I thought that boulder was... I
was like, this boulder is too easy. Okay. What
kind of boulder was it? Do you remember? It was
like a weird, it was like dual text press. And
then you grabbed like a foot chip and jumped
to, it was all squadra holds. And it was like
dual text press. You grabbed like a no shadow,
technically no shadow, and you like jumps to
another squadra. It's a good set of these. Oh,
okay. And then you did like a Lachey double clutch.
It was like two words of those. You remember
that one being easy? Yeah, I was like this. That
was my chance to look at Colin and be like, dude,
literally pink at BP. Like you couldn't not do
that boulder. Yeah. It's impossible to fall in
that boulder. He said that to me twice this year.
Wow. Yeah. What's the dynamic there in terms
of competitiveness? It's a great, great dynamic.
I like that kid so much. I love that kid. I've
been on the circuit with him for five years now,
which has been really cool because I remember
when he was 17 and just joined. It was his first
year on the circuit. And at the point I was like
21. I know it's like kind of it was like weird
because he was like young and he was like 17.
And so it's kind of awkward because I was like,
this kid's literally a kid. I was like not even
18 yet. And then like half in Seoul after the
round was over and like the comp was done, we
were like, we can like get a drink together.
We're like both. over 21 and like adults and
the comps over which was i was like oh this is
like cool like i remember when you were a kid
and now we're just like both adults and i just
he's like such a sweet kid and like uh really
thoughtful and i don't know yeah i really like
and he like he meets me at the same level of
like banter like i'm kind of i i can like kind
of poke a little hard i'm like a little like
i like to banter And he just like meets my banter
at the same level and like will give me shit.
And I like that because I don't know. I like
people that give me shit. What do you feel like
are the differences between your climbing styles?
Well, he's just way better than me. Okay. He's
really good at this like straight arm kind of
climbing. He has probably the strongest three
-finger drag that I've ever seen in my life.
And he's also exceptionally good at coordination.
I think I'm pretty good at coordination, and
he's so much better at coordination than me.
And he's also freakishly strong. I think Colin
is one of the strongest dudes on the circuit.
It doesn't always show, but he really is freakishly
strong. And when he's able to, like, channel
that, I think, like, he's one of the strongest
dudes on the circuit. And, like, Bull, there's,
like, that one in Cachao, like, he didn't do.
And he was like, it's too hard. It doesn't go.
But I think he, like, he was just, like, he was
grabbing the hold wrong. Like, I watched him,
like, take the hold as, like, a side pull instead
of a down pull. Or a down pull instead of a side
pull. And then the two dudes that did it, like,
grabbed it the right way. And it's, like. small
things like that. But I think he is like, he's,
he's really, really strong. He's really good
at coordination. And then the only difference,
like not difference between us, but like one
of the, I think the other differences is that
I excel on slab, maybe less this year, but I
do feel like I'm good slab climber. And I think
that's maybe his weakness. And so that was like
the one thing I maybe have on him is like a little
bit better slab climbing. Okay. Moving on for
now, I know throughout this interview, you've
talked about like different holds that people
use in the competitions and World Cups and local
competitions as well. I think that makes sense
because you do a lot of hold shaping yourself.
How did you get into that? So Quincy, the kid
I talked about from my school, him and his dad
used to make climbing holds. And that's just
kind of a fun thing. They had a home wall. And
so they'd make climbing holds for their home
wall. And we had a play date because we were
10 and that's what you do when you're 10. Cute.
I miss play dates so bad. Well, you can still
do them. Yeah, right? I feel like we should start
adult play dates. But yeah, I went over to his
house and we made climbing holds and I was like,
this is the sickest thing ever. And as I do,
immediately fell in love with it and was like,
I want to do this all the time. So that was how
I got into it. I pretty much just annoyed everyone
that would tolerate me to teach me how to make
climbing holds. We started a hold company that
never went anywhere. And then I started another
hold company with another buddy, which went a
little farther. We sold holds to some friends
for their home wall and then some to the climbing
gym. And then I met Ty Foos at... bouldering
nationals and just bugged him and we ended up
becoming really good friends and he like taught
me a bunch of stuff and then I bugged Ian from
Kilter for like I would just message him online
all of the time just asking all these stupid
questions and like he let me come over and he
let me shape and then when I moved to Salt Lake
City I met Jared at Pusher and just like I wouldn't
leave him alone. It's like constantly bugging
him. And it was like, I think I went over there
to climb with Nathaniel and I just spent the
whole time Nathaniel was climbing, just talking
to Jared about shapes. I like always had had
a fascination with pusher. So I was just like
geeked to be there and like meet Jared. I was
like, it was like way cooler than meeting any
of my climbing idols. I was so psyched. I was
geeked out of my mind and spent four hours talking
to him about climbing holds. He was like, you
can come over whenever you want. I was like,
cool. The next day, I was like, hey, can I come
over? He let me shape some holds for him, which
we ended up making. I just kept coming over and
shaping and bugging him and climbing and shaping
and bugging him. We became good friends. And
so eventually he gave me a key because he was
like, this doesn't make sense for me to be here
all the time when you're here. He'd keep texting
me at 10 o 'clock at night if he could come shape.
So here's a key. And so I would just go over
there all the time at crazy hours of the night
and shape away. And we just became really good
friends, me and Jared and Kevin. are like super
tight now consider them both like some of my
best friends um and yeah they're like really
good dudes well so like what makes a good hold
for you that's a good question um i remember
you asked me this last time and i didn't have
a good answer and i still don't have a good answer
i i have a much better answer of what makes a
bad hold Okay, go for that. Yeah, love to hear
that too. There are bad holds because they're
in attention to detail and done sloppily. And
then there are really good holds that also have
very little attention to detail and done really
sloppily. But maybe it's the attention to detail.
And I'm going to try not to call anyone out by
name. But there's some... Really, really good
hold companies would make fantastic, revolutionizing
shapes, revolutionary shapes that are done in
the lowest quality ever. Not the lowest quality,
but it's really funny to see the attention to
detail that just isn't there on the small things.
But the hold itself is absolutely amazing. And
is one of my favorite holds. And there's a lot
of them. But a good example is dual techs. You
can tell how much time someone spent and the
level of craftsmanship because of dual techs.
I don't know if I have any dual techs holds in
my room right now. I don't have any good examples
of this. But there's different ways to do a dual
techs. And you can kind of tell on the whole
how they did the dual techs. You can either do
it on the foam before you mold it or after you
mold it and then you can remold it again. And
you can either do it by taking material away
or adding material. And you can tell what material,
like at least I can tell how they did it. And
like Jared. is one of the most meticulous craftsmen
I've ever seen. His attention to detail was insane
and spectacular, which I think makes him a really,
really good hold shaper. And you can tell from
looking at his holds the level of craftsmanship.
I'll shape a hold and I'll be done with it. And
I'll be like, look at this hold that's ready
to be molded. And he's like, it needs two more
hours because you didn't do this and this and
there's a bump here. He's like, I'll think a
hold's done and I'm ready to mold it. And he's
just like, it's not even close to done. Small
things. Once he's drilled the holes where the
bolt is going to go and the screw's going to
go, he'll go back in and round off the edges.
and clean it up so that when you like put your
thumb in the hold it's not a sharp or hard edge
it's like a rounded like smooth edge and we'll
blend the dual tex into the bolt hole so that
like when you put your thumb in the bolt hole
you don't slip out you like or you do slip out
whereas like some people will like dual tex the
hole drill the hole shift it off and mail it
and then it comes back and it's this dual text
hold that has this sharp in -cut edge where your
thumb goes um small things like that flat hold
also um like i have so much infinite respect
for them as well because their attention to detail
and craftsmanship is like also on that same level
um and like they're what when they release something
it's done really well and with a lot of thought
and uh intention and so like they make really
good holds made really well and i think that's
like an idea versus like some other companies
make really cool holds that are like really good
shapes but done really fast and they're like
oh just like uh put a thing of dual text there
so you can't step on it wow so like with the
The bolt hold dual -tex thing, is that done individually
per hold that comes out? No, no, no. That's all
on the master. Oh, okay. Gotcha. And so you can
do it on the plastic, and then basically you'd
mold the hold, you'd dual -tex it, and then you'd
mold it again. Or you can do it on the foam and
then mold that. And they have different pros
and cons. They look different. And you can tell
when you, like, look at a hold closely whether
it was, like, if the Dualtex, like, blends into
the plastic, you can tell it was done on, like,
a plastic hold. Versus, like, if there's a hard
edge, you can tell that, like, that means that
the Dualtex was, like, done on the foam and then
molded. And then there's, like, a whole category
of holds. which I would consider bad holds. These
are all good holds. These are all the things,
like the differences in like hold companies that
make really good holds. And then there's the
companies that make bad holds that I like don't
even know how to explain, but they're just like
a waste of plastic. And every time I see them,
I'm just like, I can't believe you're just, anyone's
allowed to make a climbing hold company. Yeah.
Like that's one of the questions I ask myself
frequently. I'm like, I can't believe that someone
decided. that it was worth their money to mold
this. And then someone spent their money to buy
it, which is crazy. Is it like ergonomics or
just like a shave that's already been done or
like what is it? So that's really annoying. When
someone does a hold that's already been done
and doesn't do their own thing to it, that's
annoying, especially when they don't do a good
job. But most of it is like ergonomics or...
Something I see a lot of which I really don't
like is really poorly done rock texture holds.
So like there's a lot of companies that make
rock textured holds that don't actually look
like rock texture and are kind of uncomfortable
to grab because they have this like natural look
to them. And like they're A, not artistic to
look at. And B, they're like really unfun to
grab. They're kind of like kind of uncomfortable.
And I'm sure like... If you go to the gym and
look at some holds, you can tell the difference
between... When you look at Jared's sandstone,
it looks like a piece of Joe's is on the wall.
And then if you look at some other companies,
like Rock Texture, it's like... I don't know
what that is, but I don't want to grab it. And
like... the like both kilter and uh pusher I
think do a really good job of making like fun
like ergonomic and they do it differently like
Ian has his own style but like he does a really
good job with the sandstone and the granite texture
um and like he has his style and Jared has his
style and they're both like do a really good
job with it Ian is also very meticulous and like
very um uh, just like Jared, it's not, it's not
OCD, but it is OCD about like every detail has
to be perfect. And I think that's important because
when you can blow the hold and put it on your
website and sell it and like give it to hundreds
of thousands of people and like it potentially
is going to be something that people will climb
on for the next like a hundred years and will
like, like the, the boss is like was made in
the eighties and It's still a hold that is on
people's wall. Can you describe which one that
is real quick? The boss looks like a brain. It's
the old, it's like the big sloper that's this
big. And it's got the font bubbles on the top.
And then like the brain divot in the middle.
And that was like the first big sloper feature.
And Pusher was like the first. They were the
first of a lot of things. It was like they really
did. do a lot of firsts um but the boss is like
maybe one of the most recognizable famous holds
um not holds gonna be famous for you know it's
like timeless hold anytime you make a hold like
everything you all the little divots or like
little birthmarks and like all these little things
that you don't take care of will be there forever
um the bubble wraps another like iconic hold
that will like always be around. There will always
be bubble wrap holds and they'll always be sick.
I set a boulder with the bubble wrap holds Thursday
and they're still sick. The bubble wrap looks
like a pie. It's like a half moon and it's got
little tiny bubbles on the top of it. Honestly,
I hate these holds. Really? I love the bubble
wrap. It's a texture thing for me and the fact
that I'm bad at climbing basically. Actually,
so Ty shaped the bubble wrap. And it doesn't
exist anymore, but he showed me one of the times
I went to Waco the first bubble wrap hold that
he ever shaped. And it's cool because it has
a little rock texture in it, like when he first
made it. He added some cracks into it. But essentially,
I think the story goes like he was setting a
bunch of comms at the time, and Chris Sharma...
and somebody else were competing and they were
always tying. They would always either fall or
they would send the roo. And he was sick of them
tying. So he's like, I need to come up with something
that will separate them. And so he shaped the
bubble wrap, which was probably the first hold
to really make you fumble around to get the right
spot. When you grab a bubble wrap, you can't
just slap to it. You need to take it right. And
so he shaped the bubble wrap so that you had
to take it in the right position and grab it.
Just like when you're climbing outside, you will
grab a hold and fiddle around to get the right
bubbles. And sure enough, Chris jumped to the
hold and was like, and then jumped to the next
hold and did the route and won. And then the
next guy came out and jumped to the hold and
grabbed it and tried to keep grabbing it and
was bumping around on it and then didn't do the
next move. So it ended up separating them. I
could keep talking about cotton poults forever.
Well, okay. I guess big one that a lot of people
have been talking about more recently. How do
you feel about no -tax holds? Oh, I love no -tax
holds. Nice. I have a huge issue with the rules
around no -tax holds. I actually have a big frustration.
They released the no -text volts. Climbers adapted,
which included spitting and licking on your hands
because when you have moist hands, you stick
to the no -text better. Then the next season
rolled around and they started setting these
boulders because it's a new technology. So it's
like, what can we do? So they started to introduce
changes of like... state right so it's like you
start on fiberglass and then you move to clear
holds or you start on clear holds and then you
move to fiberglass which are completely different
states like for fiberglass you need really dry
skin and for plastic uh it's dual text you need
really like uh tacky moist skin so essentially
like if you like missed your hands and then let
them dry for a second that's like really the
tacky feeling you want or like if you lick your
fingers and then let them dry for a minute but
then competitors were like licking their fingers
and like bringing out bottles of spray and like
you know essentially adapting to this new thing
and so the ifsc introduced rules now where like
you're not allowed to lick your hands or spit
on your hands which like i get it's kind of a
biohazard ish and i know that some people are
like ew that's gross germs illness whatever but
like on the other hand all of those germs and
stuff still exist on the wall anyways like you
sneezing and like wash you know going to like
all of like these germs are all still just right
there and you're still like climbing like if
like i don't know if i were to climb on a boulder
the last thing I want to do is lick my hands
after I like like I've already gotten all the
germs and so like if I were someone else with
a spit on their hands and then climbing a boulder
before me I don't think there's any more germs
than there already was like with like people
stepping and whatever in their climbing shoe
and then putting their climbing shoe on those
holds like I don't know what's on your like I'm
more concerned what's on your feet than what's
on the like wall yeah I have another tangent
that I'm probably will get into, but essentially
it's been really frustrating with me because
I like me. I don't know. I feel like I want all
of the advantage I can have. And it was really
frustrating for me to like, then now dual tech
slash fiberglass or kind of like, it's like,
how, what is your skin? Like, what are your genetics?
Well, I mean, you can still bring a spray. You're
not allowed to spray your hands before anymore.
Oh, really? Your hands have to be dry before
you get on the boulder. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah.
I didn't know that. And so, like, it's still
a fair playing field technically, but it just
was, like, really frustrating all season for
me because they introduced it in, like, the first
comp. And then sure enough, I, like, turn around
and it's, like, fiberglass start and then palm
pressing on, like, no techs. And they're like,
you can't spit on your hand. I'm like, I really
want to like do the palm press mantle and then
spit on my hands and get them wet and then be
able to stick to these clear holds. It just was
like kind of, I don't know. I have beef with
it. But the holds themselves. No, the holds themselves
are cool. They're a little overused. Less so
now, but it's just like I'm a little tired of
being asked if I can hold on to a slippery jug.
Okay. Like, I've done, it's been asked a lot
now. It's like, oh, like every company now makes,
and I think I want to make some dual tech holds
too. Like I have a different idea what I want
to do with them. But like the slippery jug, I'm
kind of tired of grabbing. It's like, can you
hold on to a, can you make your hands wet before
you grab this jug? Is the question. It's like,
how much do you sweat? Yeah, I didn't know that
you weren't allowed to use sprays either. I thought
I saw people using those. You can spray your
hands, but then they have to be dry before you
get on the wall. And this was a change before
Korea. So Brazil, they introduced you're not
allowed to spit on your hands or lick your hands.
Okay. Which I can see why if you're on live stream,
it could potentially be like, I'm sure that like
Jakob Schubert licking his hand. in the world
jameson burn like went super viral and they're
like this is a media disaster you can't do that
anymore and then my so and honestly like i'm
probably i don't know if they if like i'm the
reason they they'd made this rule about the spray
but i'm sure that i made the point that is probably
made the rule is that like I was like, all right,
well, I'm just going to soak my hands and then
pull on a fiberglass hold. If I'm not doing a
boulder, and I know I'm not doing the boulder,
my last go, soak my hands, pull on the hole,
make it so no one else can climb on it. Did you
do that? No, but I talked about doing it openly
in ISO. It wasn't like, ha, ha, ha, this is this
trick I'm going to do. I was just like, well,
I'm going to do that. And everyone was like,
well, you can't do that. And I'm like. Tell me
why I can't do that. And they're like, but it's
cheating. And I'm like, then why are you allowed
to spray your hands before you grab the dual
text hold? You can't tell me that I can spray
my hands for certain boulders, but I can't for
other boulders. If I'm allowed to spray my hands,
I'm allowed to spray them as much as I want,
and I should be allowed to spray them on whatever
boulder I want. And it's one of those cheeky
things I say. We talked about this before the
podcast. I'll say outlandish things just to kind
of get a rise out of people. And I'm also like
very anti, I don't like being told what I can
and cannot do unless you can tell me a good reason
why and like a logical reason why. I don't like
rules or laws that don't have logic behind them.
And if you can logistically tell me a reason
why I shouldn't be doing something, then I'm
happy to follow the rule. But if it's just based
on feelings. Or if it's not a fair, like, legit,
logical rule, I don't like it. And so that was
like, I was like, okay, well, like, there's no
reason I can't spray my hands right before I
do, like, some kind of friction -dependent boulder,
get it wet, and then the next person's bummed.
And they're like, but it's unfair, it's treated.
I'm like, I know, but it's just, right now, the
rules allow it. And so that's why they probably
changed the rules. That makes sense why that
rule is that wet. It's a bummer because now they
have introduced these like holds that are friction
dependent or non -friction dependent. And then
the setters will set boulders that are like paddle
dyno to paddle. Like it's like, you know, friction
dependent slope remove to dual text jug. And
you're like, okay, I have to pick which one I
want to be bad on. And that I don't like because
I'm just frustrated that it's like you have to
take a state. Yeah. I want to be able to change
my state mid boulder. I mean, I guess the reason
why they wouldn't want you to just ruin the climb
for everyone else is just because it looks bad
in terms of sportsmanship, I guess. No, exactly.
I mean, I think that will make sense. And that's
part of why I said it, too, is I was like, there's
this gaping. And obviously, I think I'm contradicting
myself because I started this argument off that
I was frustrated that they made these new rules.
And now I'm like, yes, I was probably part of
the reason that they made these new rules because
I like, and like I said, I don't know if anyone
in the rules committee heard me say this or if
one of the athletes told them, but I feel like
I did bring up a really good point, which is
why I would personally make this new rule. It's
like someone at some point was going to do that
because it was allowed. Like there was a hole
in the rules and it needed to be filled. preferably
before someone did that. Like I didn't do that,
have no intention of doing that. But I thought
of it as like, there's this giant loophole now
where like, I'm allowed to spray my hands with
water. Why would I not? Like, if I really wanted
to do well, I'd just spray my hands with water
right before I go. Part of it is like, I also
just don't think it would help. Like, I think
if I like, I don't know. if that was what I was
focused on doing I don't think my round would
I don't know I would probably just also not make
the semi and then everyone would be like mad
at me I don't think there are any climbers on
this circuit right now who would do it I mean
I remember like I don't remember if it was like
last year the year before but there was like
a slab start that like Yannick couldn't do. And
so he kind of just like gave up and then brushed
it for the next person. So I don't think anyone
on the circuit would kind of go that route of
like trying to sabotage other people's climbs.
Yeah. No one's done it yet, but also the sport
is growing and at some point someone was going
to do it. Yeah. Someone should do it. I think
a villain would be interesting to see. I would
love a great, a good villain. Yeah. Someone who
is just a terrible person and everyone can hate
on. Couldn't be me. Okay. So thinking about the
future going forward, while we are also kind
of running low on time, what are your goals for
2026 climbing and non -climbing related? I'm
not quite sure yet. I'm kind of in a transition
period. I want to make the team again in bouldering.
I probably won't even compete in lead this year.
Probably just focus on bouldering. And I have
a bunch of outdoor. routes that I'd like to do.
But time has gotten away from me and I'm kind
of out of shape for lead climbing. So I think
that those goals are going to be really hard
to achieve before the season's over. I have some
outdoor bouldering projects that I would also
like to do. But Little Cottonwood is very tumultuous
in the fall. And so I also don't know if I'll
have time to do. those as well because potentially
by next monday it'll be out of season for the
fall wow okay like there's that there's like
talk of it just getting snowed out and like and
i we'll see everyone always says that and then
the fall like we get a snowstorm in october and
then nothing till like december like 15th or
something but uh There is potential that the
season's over pretty soon, and I just don't have
time to climb those things either. I kind of
accomplished my goal of two semis this year,
so if I do make the team again, I think the next
goal for me is a final, but it's hard. Yeah,
oh, for sure. I know. Yeah, I know we're definitely
running low on time, but I definitely want to
get to some of the user -submitted questions.
So first one I'll get into, this is from, like,
Way back, I was going to go into it in the intro,
but we veered a different direction. So we're
going to ask this one now. Someone asked, did
you really start climbing at two? Yes. I don't
remember exactly. I don't remember, but it was
like two or three. It was before I could walk.
Jeez. Because my dad would like put me in a harness
and they would just kind of like pull me up the
wall and I would just like scramble up the wall.
I also apparently at 18 months crawled. My mom
like went to go put my sister down and I couldn't
talk. I like didn't start talking until I was
like really, I don't remember how old I was,
but it was like very late in life. But I could
crawl and I could walk. And my mom like let me
go. I would like. basically communicated that
I wanted to play outside. And she's like, yeah,
I'm going to go put your sister down. And I could
hear, I could like comprehend what she was saying.
I just wasn't talking yet. And I like climbed
over our five foot fence and walked to the park
across the street. Oh my gosh. That's terrifying.
And then my mom like heard some voices from outside
the house and she opened the front door and there
was a lady with a baby. Like, and was like, is
this your baby? And so apparently I thought that
the fire alarm caused fires. So I like went to
where our fire spot was. My mom was like, if
there's a fire, this is where you go. And I like
went there. And then this lady like picked me
up as I was like walking across the street at
like 18 months in a diaper. And I like pointed
my way home. So yes, I started very early. I
was a very, very active kid. Like I hear my mom
tells these stories and I'm like, damn, that
sounds terrible. I really push you through it.
You don't really remember doing that. No, I remember
climbing into my mom's closet at a very young
age. And then I don't think I ever fell out,
but like very similar to the closet I have here.
It's like a double door closet with the little
shelf at the top. And I would like climb the
door and then crawl into the little shelf. And
now I'm looking at it and I'm like, wow, that's,
I was really small if I could fit in there. I
was, yeah, I just was like always on top of things.
And I just have like infinite, I just have a
bunch of memories of like my entire childhood
getting yelled at by other parents for being
on top of things. And it was really frustrating
because I knew what I was doing and I was really
good at it. And my mom was like, yeah, that's
just what he does. And then someone else would
come over and be like, you need to get down.
And I'm like, you're not my mom. Leave me alone.
Like we went to like the zoo and there was like
a a playground that was like you would go inside
of the playground and then climb in the side
of it and of course like that was boring because
it was made for kids so i would like climb the
outside of it and like some mom came over and
was like that's dangerous you need to get down
and then at my first world youth world championships
we like as a team went to the park to go get
like you know it was like team activities or
whatever and i like climbed a tree and then all
the kids were like oh my god you're gonna get
hurt you're gonna get down and I was like this
is the only place I should feel safe and for
some reason I don't feel safe right now I was
like why am I getting called out by other US
team athletes on the US rock climbing it was
pretty funny I like really remember getting yelled
at by all the kids and then like the coaches
I think it was Meg Meg was like dude you're really
upsetting all the other kids and I'm like I know
you're good but like can You're making my job
so much harder. Can you please come down? I'm
like, I don't want to deal with all these teenagers
that are freaking out because you're in this
tree. I was like, that's fair. For you, I will
get out of the tree. For these kids, I'm very
upset that they don't also want to climb the
tree with me. Well, you wouldn't want to get
injured before. Yeah, they were like, you could
get hurt before the comp. I was like, we're at
a rock climbing competition. I'm sure I can climb
this tree. yeah i feel fine um okay next one
we'll go to um what kept you motivated to keep
trying after all the failures at nationals to
lead to your eventual success that's a good question
um i mean one thing that like kept being a recycling
like idea is that like i could never forgive
myself if i like got you know it's it basically
if at the end of my life i was like but what
if like what if i kept trying and kept going
like what could i have done if i had not quit
um and i think that was like it was like you
know like that was the that was the big one so
i never forget myself i like could ask myself
like what if I don't want to ever have that question
of, like, what could have happened? Like, what
could I have done? Like, I want to know, like,
how far I've pushed myself and then be content
with knowing that I've, like, done all that I
can do to be the best that I could be. And then
the other, you know, the other thing, too, is,
like, I just really like climbing and I really
love climbing and I'm really competitive. And
so, like, and this may be a long tangent, but
I'm just, like. keep wanting to be better and
i don't feel like i've peaked i don't feel like
i'm at the end and like i still just want to
keep going and so like competitions i keep signing
up because i just keep realizing that i want
to compete and so and then as far as training
goes like i'm still just fired up to be good
and be i want to be one of the greats so bad
yeah and so like i just it becomes really easy
for me to motivate to go to the gym and to like
keep training and so you were still having fun
even after not making the team those times so
you still wanted to keep doing it yeah there's
definitely like a lot of times that i'm not having
fun like being a professional athlete is definitely
not fun all the time it's like a lot of crap
and a lot of just suffering like but that's and
i say professional athlete but that's just like
being successful at anything and being really
good at anything means like doing all of the
crap and like you know i started this quote from
another podcast that was like the crappy thing
about all of these motivational movies is like
the rocky the 30 second rocky scene or five second
rocky scene lasts five seconds like all of these
training montages last like five seconds like
you don't realize that this stuff takes like
five years like you know like that five second
training montage is really like five years of
your life yeah true like you got to do what they
do in that montage for like five years straight
and just eat crap for five years if you like
really want to do the thing so like you know
it's a lot of that but also I love competing
and so like and I'm still having fun competing
and so like before i signed up for nationals
like i was like thought i was gonna maybe retire
like thought i was gonna maybe not do it and
then i thought about whether i wanted to go or
not and i was like oh i actually like whether
the result was good or not i was like i do want
to go because i want to go compete and i just
had continued to be training so i was like prepared
and also less and mentally in a better position
because i wanted to be there before like me And
I think that's a good question too to ask is
like if money wasn't an option or it wasn't like
a thought, like if you weren't like, oh, like
it's going to cost this much to go to team trials.
And like, if I don't go to team trials, like
my sponsors aren't going to pay me this much.
And like, if I, you know, like if money's not
a thing and you don't have to worry about getting
paid by your sponsors or paying to go to an event
or making money at a competition, like where
do you go to that competition? Right. Like if
it was just free to go and you didn't have to
take off work or like whatever, like would you
go? If the answer was yes, then you should like,
you know, you should keep doing it. Yeah, that's
a good way to think about it. Money does really
complicate things though. It really complicates
things. Not saying you shouldn't do things because
of money and because like you can't afford it
or whatever, but that's like an easy way to decide
what you want to do with your life. It's like
if money wasn't like involved in this, would
I be doing that or not? Yeah. Okay. The next
one, when you started climbing, what local climbers
helped you or were people that you looked up
to? Oh, that's a great question. I had a very
lovely climbing community growing up. And you
said New Mexico, right? Yeah, New Mexico. I had
a great coach, Andre, who also owned the gym.
And then he also hired another really amazing
coach, Ed, who like... Took me under his wing
and taught me a lot about rock climbing. And
I picked up a lot of habits from him. He's an
insomniac, doesn't sleep. I thought I was crazy
back then, but now I will frequently wake up
at 5 o 'clock in the morning and go climbing.
which I'm sure is a byproduct. And, yeah, everyone's
like, I would never be willing to do that. And
I'm just like, no, it's just what you do. You
just get up to five and go rock climbing. And
that was, like, what he did. Dan was, like, a
really great coach. Someone else I, like, really
valued was Brendan, who was, like, a guy who
was just climbing to the gym, was, like, part
of the, like, adult homies. Like, he would climb
with Ed. They would have, like, boys night. I
remember when I was invited over for the first
time, they were like, all right, I think you're
finally old enough and mature enough to play
comedy. But it's not. And then this dude, Mike,
who was really amazing. But I had a really rad
crew of adult men that all kind of put up with
me because I was really not that fun to be around
as a little teenager. What's one bit of climbing
advice and life advice from that whole thing
that you feel like resonates with you most to
this day? Dude, one that I think about all the
time, which is crazy, is I remember like when
Brendan like sat me down and was like, dude,
you cannot try the boulder problem from the ground
every time. And I was like, that's what? Why
not? And he was like, dude, that just makes no
sense. He's like, you do all of the moves first
and then you try it from the ground. And I like
think about that all the time. And then still
frequently have to tell people that like climb
way too hard for me to be like, yo, why are you
like trying it from the ground every time? Yeah.
Like, what are you thinking? And they're like,
well, I want to send it. I'm like, yeah. And
you're not going to do that if you try it from
the ground every time. Like figure out how to
do the puzzle and then put the puzzle together.
Okay. I do forget that one a lot, actually. Thanks
for reminding me. Like I did it today. I tried
this problem from the ground like four times
in a row and I still had not done the second
move, but I was just like, I'm going to do it
from the ground. Never did the second move. Yeah,
I get that. Then I think that is all the questions
I had. Thanks for joining me again today. Yeah.
Thanks for having me on again. I appreciate it.
Are there any like... Other words of wisdom you
came up with since that time that you want to
get out there? Once again, I'm going to shout
out Pusher and Osun. They're both just like really
great sponsors and they're like making it possible
that I can keep doing what I'm doing. I'm like,
yeah, I'm really thankful for that. And where
can people find you if they want to see more
of your stuff? My Instagram is HannahSmash. I
think that's it. I think Instagram is kind of
the best place to find me. I'm at The Bouldering
Project 30 hours a week, 30, 40 hours a week.
Not 40. I never actually clocked 40. I actually
had a conversation with Greg the other day where
he was like, dude, you work full time. You've
got to be in here more often. You haven't hit
your minimum for full time in three weeks now.
Part of it was because I was off doing comps.
Yeah, understandable. I don't actually work a
full time job. I work almost a full time job.
I'm like the bare minimum to be full time. It
just feels like a lot because I spent most of
my life just goofing off and rock climbing. And
so 30 hours of work feels a lot more than no
hours of work. Yeah. I mean, in addition to training,
it is a lot of time spent in the gym. I do work
like two full time jobs. I work like 30 hours
of the Bullroom Project and then I'm a professional
athlete. And then I... like to take on other
things so i'm got like three other things going
on too they're taking a bunch of time it's a
lot i don't know how you handle it but good luck
Thank you. Okay, awesome. Well, thank you again
for joining me. And it was another great talk.
Yeah, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for making it to the end of
the podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe
if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you are a super big
climber. If you're listening on a podcasting
platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five
stars and you can continue the discussion on
the free competition climbing discord linked
in the description. Thanks again for listening.
Thank you.