Streaming events at the quality that people want
is very expensive. Tens of thousands of dollars.
And people in the tower, oh, the slab was too
hard. And I talked to the chief and he was like,
the slab was V6. People say that World Cup climbing
in Europe is now behind a paywall. It's not.
It's on TV. That was always the goal. People
that consume sports. understand that part of
consumption is economics. And I think climbing
for so long has had this, it's owed to me that
it's free. Welcome to another episode of the
That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm your host,
Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce my guest
for today, Pete Woods. Pete is a commentator
and MC. He's commentated for several World Cups
and North American elite competitions. In this
episode, we'll learn about the art of MCing,
times he's gotten flamed online as a commentator,
and we get a lot of insight into the financials
of broadcast and climbing as a sport, including
the best argument I've heard yet for why Eurosport
is a good deal. It's clear to me in this episode
that Pete is a huge proponent of growing the
climbing community and his passion really shines.
So I hope you enjoy this episode with Pete. I'm
excited to announce that my sponsor, Mad Rock
Climbing, just came out with a brand new pair
of shoes, the Remora Pro. I was so excited to
try them on that even though I broke a toe on
my right foot, I had to at least try on the left
shoe. So I can definitely say that the Remora
Pro is better than a rental shoe. But really,
these are their softest shoe ever, which means
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pulling. Feel free to message me if you have
any questions about the shoes or sizing and you
can use the discount code NOTREALCLIMBER for
10 % off your entire Mad Rock order. Back to
the show. What have you been up to? It's been
a while. I'm good. I've been busy. Like I have
a day job, right? So like I have my regular job
that I do. What is that? I'm the head of supply
chain for a financial tech company. Whoa. Okay.
I didn't know that. Yeah. So that's my, I mean,
my job keeps me pretty busy. And then I was just
in Mississauga for the Jackalope, which was awesome.
Oh, that just happened. Oh, I totally missed
it. How was that? You can't, yeah, you can't
catch, there's no online, there's no streaming
presence for Jackalope. You just have to be there.
Oh, sad. Would it be better if it was streamed,
do you think? Um, yeah, that's something we can
definitely talk about. It's the, we tried it
once, um, and it falls into the same problem.
So it's super expensive. Um, and the Jackalope
kind of the model, they like to do things kind
of as high end as they can. So like in the skate
side of things, it's mostly a skateboard. It
initially was a skateboard competition. Um, but
two years they've had Tony Hawk, uh, the Tony
Hawk for demo team come through. They always
have like top names in skateboarding that they
bring in. Bob Burkess was there this year. So
like they're super established and they decided,
all right, we'll stream it and we'll stream kind
of all the semis and all the finals. They brought
in, you know, a couple of big names to do the
skate broadcast and I did the climbing broadcast.
And the only downside was that that was the one
year we decided to make it an NACS event. So
we took a festival comp and we decided to make
it an NACS event, hoping, thinking we would bring
in some of the highest top athletes. So now you're
dealing with judges and rules and all these things.
And we had like a correspondence sort of like
on the mat. And the idea was like after people
came off their finals boulder, you'd be like,
hey man, how would that go? And all the final,
all the climbers were into it. And the jury president
for the comp was like, no. And we were like,
this is the future of the sport. Like why like
sideline reporting is a thing. Um, so it, that
kind of fell a bit into like, it was just another
broadcast and it poured with rain and it was
wildly expensive and they haven't done it since.
So yes, would it benefit from a stream? Sure.
It'd be awesome. Even if you just put, you just
let it run like with the, the kind of the vibe
of the space. Cause it's, there's like a thousand
people watching outside. So it's a hell of a
comp. I think it would be great to stream it,
but it's, really expensive. Okay. So we will
get into the details of all of that and like
the price of setting up events and streaming
and stuff like that a bit later. But for, I think
like a lot of the international crowd may not
know who you are. So what is your climbing background
and what do you do? My climbing background, I
started climbing a little over 30 years ago.
I grew up in Ontario in Canada and just had I
stumbled across it. I had a friend who said,
hey, we're going to go climbing this weekend.
And I said, okay, sure. Rock climbing, great.
And it was just hooked. It was one of those things
that just caught me that something about it appealed
to me. And I kind of went all in on climbing.
I quit a bunch of other sports that I was doing.
I was in university. And then I started competing.
So basically in the first year I started climbing,
I started competing and I started managing a
climbing gym. Wow. So there was something about
competition. I've been competing. Every sport
I did, I did competitively. So for me, climbing
and competition was a natural pair. And then
the outside part of climbing was the recreational,
like the enjoyment, the escape, the outdoors
corner of it. And also a little bit of competition.
So you're like, you're trying to send roots.
You're trying to send all the problems. Like
that's your focus. So I've had this anchor in
competition since almost the first. you know
it's easily within the first year it's like they're
fuzzy memories now it's like i think it was the
first year maybe it was the first 16 months something
like that but i went to my first ever competition
we drove from ottawa to montreal i came in dead
last um and i was like that's the greatest thing
ever uh and i never came last again you know
that's one of those things so i competed um for
quite a long time i competed um like in canadian
nationals as soon as we started having canadian
nationals i did quite well for a few years like
when i was sort of in my climbing prime um I
went to one World Cup when I was coaching the
youth national team. So I started coaching when
I moved out west and I loved coaching. So you
went to a World Cup as a coach? I went to a World
Cup. I went to Youth World Championships coaching
our national youth team. And then we went to
a World Cup in part of our European adventures.
We stayed in for like almost six weeks and climbed
all through Europe. And there was a World Cup.
So myself and Mike Doyle. went and competed in
that world cup and i came in like third last
like i was not ready to climb in a world cup
yeah it was that experience experience i had
no idea you didn't even tell me that one those
are i i still have the i have the tank top so
i have the was in aprica in italy um i have the
tank top from that event and essentially i applied
i said we're going to be in europe there's a
world cup at the same time i was climbing quite
hard like i was like a good climber and I got
approval from the National Federation, you know,
and off we went and we entered this comp and
it was, I mean, Steve McClure, like it was sort
of 2002, I think was the year we were there.
And it was, it was only, it was route comps and
it was very intimidating. The city was basically
closed. We were in like the hotel, like all the
climbers in the same hotel. And you walked over
to the venue, you just stand in front of this
massive lead route. And you try and work it out.
And then I was nervous and I got pumped. The
route was like really, really technical at the
bottom. So classic route setting would make you
pumped like at the very beginning. And I just
couldn't I couldn't outrun the pump by the time
I was in the middle of the roof. And that was
it. And I think I came like fourth last or something
like I got rocked. I mean, you didn't even get
last. So it was super fun. But I kept coaching.
I love coaching almost right away. Um, and I'd
coached a bit of other sports. So I, I kind of,
I liked coaching in general, uh, and I liked
coaching climbing. There's just something about
sort of breaking down movement and, and working
with individual athletes, like in that team space.
I really liked the way that lent itself coaching
teams where you, it's harder to have an impact.
I think when you're coaching large teams, soccer
team, volleyball teams, things like this. But
you're coaching individual climbers in this group
environment, in this sort of co -training environment.
So I kept coaching as I kept competing. And then
eventually you, like I wasn't training full -time.
I had a job, right? I wasn't really a full -time
climber. I tried to be for a little bit. I was
repping a couple of climbing brands. I went through
that art. I was sponsored. I had all this stuff.
I was like, maybe this is the way. And then I
was like, I kind of like want to. live in a nicer
apartment and I, you know, want to have a car
and I want to go on vacations. So I decided I
got a job. I had a real job. And that chips away
at your ability to go climbing. Right? Yes. Like,
oh, you gotta, you know, you have to go kind
of be part of society and not, people choose
to do that and not do that. And some people choose
to take climbing in like a full -time direction.
And I just decided that wasn't quite for me.
So I was content. I have, looking back, become
content with making decisions, maybe kind of
just at the tail end of the prime of my climbing
where I was like, ah, if I had gone all in, you
know, what would have happened? So I think we
all have those moments. And in the moment, I
was fine with it. And looking back, I'm fine
with it, but I definitely kind of think, oh,
could I have done something different with this
sport? But I think if I had done something different
to the sport, I might not be where I am now.
And I love where I am now. I love having transitioned
from competing to being given the opportunity
to emcee an event, a local event, and then being
given an opportunity to do commentary at a local
event and realize that there's a passion for
that. And then I have a good at it and then grow
that passion and grow that talent. And this is
where I end up now. So maybe I wouldn't be here.
So I think every step that you take on the path
has an impact. I'm not a kind of fate person.
I'm not a kismet person. But I do think that
the choices you make, I mean, they take you where
you are and you can have regrets. But if you're
happy where you are now, you don't need to have
those regrets. You can have like, you know. fond
memories and like, ah, like I have this sort
of anchor memory where a bunch of friends had
gone to Bishop. Um, and I didn't go, I don't
either didn't have the vacation time, or I think
I was going to go to font and made that decision
instead. And, um, one of them became, it was
the first Canadian ascent of the Mandela. It
was like the third ascent of the Mandela. Right.
And that's, we're climbing the same level. You're
like, oh, could I have been, you know, the third
ascent of the Mandela? Like, could I have a,
like a little stamp in a history book? Maybe,
but at this point in your life, does it matter?
You know, probably not. no yeah i totally feel
that um okay so for those who don't know the
nuances um how is emceeing different from commentating
oh my goodness it's such a good question it's
they are branches of the same tree so you are
you have a responsibility in the event and i'll
go i was just talking with a bunch of people
because i was in mississauga the jackalope the
mc side of it is the you are responsible for
keeping the crowd engaged to a level that the
climbers get the response they deserve for the
work they're putting in. So you tread along this
line, at least I do. I tread along this line
of being integral to the event without sort of
taking away from any of the moments and only
trying to build them up a little further. So
a crowd of people is a... literally a living
breathing thing and they react to each other
but you can kind of nudge them so i try and get
them on my side i try and get them to want to
see you know what we're trying to accomplish
and the value that sort of their response to
hard effort is and you don't only have to cheer
for people topping boulders you can cheer for
effort you can cheer for camaraderie you can
cheer for people being nice to each other like
you have all these kind of places where you can
Not just be distracted and look at your phone
or talking to your neighbor. So my job is to
remind people that there's really exciting things
happening right up here on this big stage. And
then just to try to boost the moment. And it's
high energy. It's high impact. It's not a lot
of nuance. You're not allowed to describe the
boulders. You're not allowed to tell people anything
other than... Maybe I've pushed it on a couple
of events. I had a chief root setter ask me to
push the line a little bit at the bouldering
project series a few years ago. My friend Tonde
had said, he's like, we want to nudge it a little
bit. It's not a sanctioned comp. He's like, you
can tell the crowd in the room a little bit about
the boulder. So why is it hard? It's like, oh
man, that foot is so slippery. They're having
real trouble getting it. Let's see if, you know,
Sean can do it. So they've seen the boulders,
right? They preview the boulders. There's no
surprises. But the trick to not give away like,
oh my God, I can't believe he heel hooked to
the person that hasn't seen the boulder yet.
That's where you draw that line. So trying to
push it a little bit in terms of keeping people
interested in what's going on. Are you allowed
to say like if someone topped? I mean, I guess
it's kind of obvious from crowd cheering anyway,
but I don't know if you're allowed to. At sanctioned
comps, it's way trickier. So I've had exchanges
with chief judges and jury presidents over the
years who were like, you can't. And I was like,
they know. So you people, that's two hands. You
have to connect. You're not in a vacuum. Beta,
definitely not. But sort of information, yes.
And you're right. It's almost impossible not
to know. If someone has topped a boulder and
even in whether you're doing festival style where
you're changing the format or you're doing like
a normal comp where people are sort of in ISO
and then in secondary ISO together. If somebody
comes back to secondary ISO a minute and a half
after you, they flash a boulder and you'll have
heard it from the crowd, especially at an event
that has a lot of people at it. A thousand people
are going to make. like a pretty big noise every
time someone does a boulder. Or if someone gets
to the zone and they haven't seen that yet, the
kind of hum turns into like an explosion. And
then if they keep going, it, you know, it manages
to go even further. So you kind of, you always
have an idea. Okay. So then going into commentary,
well, I guess, do you have like a preference
of doing one or the other? I, I waver. I waver
when I'm in an event and I'm on the mats. in
the middle of a final, there's a thousand people
and the lights are on and people are topping
boulders, I wouldn't trade it. It's so much fun.
There's a kid that just snuck into finals in
Mississauga at the Jackalope. He's a super good
climber. On the last boulder, insane, crazy Gaston
dino palm press thing. Stuck it. The roof comes
off. He's all excited. He turns around and I
was like, bro, he almost knocked me over. Like
he ran up and like gave me this big bear hug.
I almost fell over. Like it was so, so being
connected to that level of energy and that emotion,
it's wild. And I have these moments, you know,
just standing around with people on the mats
and at a comp where there's less, you know, we're
not sanctioned so we can do what we want. You
hang out with the athletes. I brought someone
their chalk bags. She was hanging in an upside
down knee bar. Like anybody, does anyone care?
I looked at the other finalists. I'm like, can
I? And they were like, So I brought her a chalk
bag to chalk up in the middle of the climb. Like
you don't, that's the connection for me is like,
it's so much fun to be like, I'm just this little
corner. I'm still involved. But broadcasting
as a, at my kind of core in climbing as a coach,
as a teacher, as a mentor, that's where broadcasting
gets to shine because you have this platform
of pretty engaged people who you can. Bring climbing
to. You can teach the sport as it's happening.
You can provide knowledge. You can give insight.
You can talk about issues. I'm a huge, huge fan
of root setting. I mean, I think we mostly are,
but I'm a big kind of booster for root setting.
A lot of my close friends are root setters and
it's such a core component. And that's the thing
that gets complained. People always go, oh, the
root setting was this, root setting was that.
So I'm a big defendant of root setting as an
art. And you get to talk about it on a broadcast.
You get to talk about the skill and the nuance.
And I'll go and watch them tweak the final or
tweak the semi and spend hours moving a foothold
around. And for me to be able to say that to
the people watching at home is like, what you
don't know is that foothold used to be three
inches to the right and the boulder was too hard.
And now, you know, they tried everything and
look now it's getting like it's being done a
fourth or fifth or sixth try for people. So you
get to have this. The same kind of conversation
that you have out for dinner or around the coffee
table, around the fire, where you break down
climbing and you get into why you love it and
you get into people's style and you get into
why someone did a boulder and someone didn't.
You get to get into watching teammates do something
different on a boulder that is wrong that no
one else did. You're like, oh my God, they obviously
talked about that. So they're like, oh yeah,
we're going to do this. And they both did it.
And they both did it wrong before they had to
come back around. And that gives you this window
to talk about the way that route previews work.
And you just have these threads you get to keep
pulling on for a couple of hours. And you just
get to hang out. And usually whoever the co -commentator
is, is going to have a similar level of interest
and passion about climbing. And there's places
where you get to like, you know, sometimes you're
just plain blown away or excited. And sometimes
you're like. You get really, really nuanced about
movement. And for me, that's super fun. So in
the middle of a broadcast, if you ask me, I tell
you every time I would do, if I had to pick one,
I would pick broadcasting. In the middle of a
final, when everything's going off, I'd be like,
oh man, this is good times too. How much does
it cost to stream a competition? And what all
goes into that cost? Tens of thousands of dollars.
Streaming events at the quality that people want
is very expensive. World Cup level broadcast
is the sports you're used to watching on TV.
Those are the cameras. That's the production
trailer. So, you know, I've shown people pictures
from U .S. Nationals of the production trailer
that's parked outside and the 50 monitors and
like seven produce like people doing graphics,
people doing all of these things. We have show
run meetings like there's a team of at least
10 on the production side plus camera people.
Plus the commentary group team and all of those
people have to get where you're going. So, you
know, even just to fly, um, and, and a hotel,
if to get me somewhere is going to be a couple
thousand dollars times a second commentator,
you're at probably five grand already just to
have people in, in the building from wherever
they live, you know, originally. And then you
have to get, you have to pay the camera people,
you pay the producers, like all of these things
kind of ticking all the way down the line. Of
course, there's volunteers at climbing events,
but no one's volunteering from, you know, a camera
production crew. So they're, I mean, $40 ,000,
$50 ,000, $60 ,000. I know the dock masters,
the guys that put that on, they do other sports
like that camera crew, that production crew.
Um, and they, you know, they're, it's a small
country, so they don't have to, they're like,
they live in the Netherlands and they just have
to come further. You know, they just come out
to the city, but they still have to stay in hotels
and still have to drive their cars. Like even
if everyone lives in the city that you're putting
the event on in, it's still expensive to pay
everybody for that time. Um, and you, I mean,
you're not bought, you're not renting camera
equipment at this point. You're working with
production companies that own it, but they're
wildly expensive. Um, one thing, just a side
note, if you ever get into broadcasting, grow
a thick skin and do not read the comments. I've
read some horrible things about myself. Hey,
I'm an idiot, right? All these things. Um, but
we, someone put in the comments and it came back
around and said, you can't call them girls. Okay.
But my female co -commentator calls them girls
because that's, it's okay for her to say that.
Oh, the girls. Unlike the women, right? The female
climbers, the ladies, the athletes. So you have
to build these things that are okay in a social
setting at the pub that are not okay on a national
and international broadcast. Do you remember
like any other things that stand out to you that
you had to like learn to change during commentary?
You can't really be a fan doing commentary because
then it just sounds like you're a fan. So I had
to learn to be a little bit more kind of toned
down a little more level for sure. So choice
of words, choice of language. I had to change
for sure. Just sort of throw away expressions
that you might use that have no real impact.
You know, I kind of learned to narrow your language
down and be more descriptive in a more concise
way. I like to wander when I talk. I like to
meander, tell a story. But you have to be able
to tell the story and wrap it up before the next
climber gets on the wall. So I had to learn to
be super dialed in. Um, and I've, it's funny
cause I've talked to a couple of other people
that did a podcast a couple of years ago and
we were talking about being more concise and
he was like, you are not a concise person. I'm
like, I know like even this, this sort of wandering
conversation that I'm having with him now, I'm
like, you know, we're just telling stories and
getting off track and you cannot do that. You
have to remember all of these details. And, um,
I was already pretty good at pronouncing names.
Um, maybe just how I grew up. I started reading
super young. So like, I'm not. I don't get worried
when I look at foreign names. But I will forget
things. I'll be like, oh, are they from? Oh,
my God. And you'll sort of forget a country.
And then you just have to change your sentence
in the middle of a sentence to not talk yourself
into a corner that you can't get out of. So you
tend to think very quickly while speaking in
a very measured way. And you can't offend people.
That's the trickiest one is something you might
think is fine. It's probably if it's on the edge,
somebody will think that you're being rude for
some reason. I'll give you another example. There's
a very good, very strong young climber in Canada,
Evangelina Briggs. She's a national champion.
She's the youth champion. She is an absolute
monster competing. She is also a mask. She climbs
like stoic, serious, almost no emotion. I said
she topped the boulder. I think the boulder she
knew was going to be the win and had this tiny
little crack of a smile as she turned around
on the camera. I was like, oh, that's you can
tell that smile. She's going to be happy with
that. And somebody put in the comments. in quotes,
you'd be prettier if you smiled more. As if that's
what I was alluding to. It blew up. And I had
to go and defend that and be like, that's not,
and I brought it up. I think I even brought it
up on the, like, you know, the next broadcast
I did because I'm like, that's not what I'm talking
about. Emotion is fine. Like I'll mention if
there's a male climber that smiles, that never
smiles or shows emotion or doesn't show emotion.
Emotion is not male or female. Emotional is not
rude or not rude. It's a descriptive fact about
an individual or a sport or whatever it is. So
to think that you have to explain that, you have
to be ready for people to take what you've said
and twist it with their own version or their
own bias and then apply that bias to you. And
even if you don't have it, you have to look in
first and go, okay, am I applying a bias that
I didn't think I had? And do I need to change
the way I address things like this in the future?
Or is that person just on a little island all
by themselves and no one else thinks that I said
something offensive? And in that instance, the.
The Rosanna people in the chat, people were texting
me like female friends from across North America
were like, you're good. Like, don't stress it.
I guess in those cases, it's also hard because
then maybe one person would say it and then a
bunch of other people who didn't even have it
in their mind would see it and then be like,
oh, maybe. And I talked about, you know, there's
the World Cup in Salt Lake City where Mejdi topped
the boulder and spiked his chalk bag and it bounced
like four feet up in the air. Right. That's raw
emotion. You know, what a story I just told you
about Jacob knocking me over on the mats. That's
raw emotion. And I think we should be able to
talk about that without worrying that we're,
you know, that we're, we're applying an emotional
reaction to a gender specifically, instead of
that's just happens to be the person we're talking
about in the moment. So yeah, it's a, there's
little pitfalls everywhere. So I've learned to
be a little bit more careful, a little bit more
measured, do more homework. try and understand
um where you don't get to just have your own
opinion so i don't just get to say that's not
offensive i have to have i have to have like
consensus so if it's even you know i'm thinking
about it or talking about it and either in retrospect
or you know in planning i just you apply a different
lens which is a lot of people i mean will cups
get broadcast on like 57 channels, the cable
channels across Europe, like hundreds of thousands
of people watch World Cups. So my first World
Cup, I was like, this is not 800 people watching
on YouTube. Yeah. How did the Salt Lake commentary
go? You did it in 2021, 2022? And two, yeah.
It was amazing. It was so good. It was the, it
was the, what I had been trying to achieve since
I started doing commentary was like, you know,
I want to take this as far as it goes, which
is the World Cup. I was super lucky to have Megan
as my co -chair. She's just so smart and so invested
and being in the US and she's friends with like
all of the athletes. So she had this like energy
about her of like, I get to watch my friends
compete and talk about them on TV. Like this
is the greatest thing ever. So her energy was
super infectious and the crew was. And they treated
me as though I'd been doing it for 10 years,
which I had been. So that was like, it wasn't
like, oh, you're new. What do we do now? It was,
oh, you're just new to this chair. And the professionalism,
the timing, the voice in the ear, like the way
the run, everything is like almost to the second.
It makes it like a really enjoyable experience.
The climbing was amazing. I mean, one of my favorite
things, you think you have this idea or maybe
people that haven't seen a lot of competitions.
And I did a little behind the scenes with my
friend Tyler, who has Plastic Weekly, which is
a show at the last Salt Week Wilcox that I did.
We did a behind the scenes and I was like, here's
the commentary table. And it was like a folding
picnic table, like in the dirt, like in the corner,
like behind some cabling and like a light post.
He's like, it's not glamorous. You're not, not
all venues have like, you know. a commentary
area. So there's this idea that you're like,
oh, I wonder what the, what the booth is going
to be like. And I have a picture from the finals
and they put backdrop for the kiss and cry, like
where they have the kind of who's sitting in
first place. And they had the, like the USA climbing
kind of screen in front of the broadcast table.
So I had this picture of the monitors and a black
screen. That was our view for the final. We could
not see the boulders and we were eight feet away
from. the boulders so um there's you don't get
this big sudden jump like oh i'm doing world
cups now we're gonna be in like you know oak
chairs and like this wonderful environment like
no it's still like the money gets spent where
it's supposed to be spent and you're gonna sit
in a plastic chair on a folding picnic table
and you're gonna like it and it's gonna be fine
but the experience was amazing and it just made
me want to do more it would be nice to see like
a nice commentary booth like they have in like
the NFL or something where they're like all sat
around and there's like a whole row of commentators
and they all, yeah, I don't know. That would
be nice. And if someone running stats to you
and yeah, absolutely. I agree. That would be
great. I think I was going to say this for a
bit later, but since we're talking about Salt
Lake City right now, I think you had an interesting
anecdote about, I think the setting at Salt Lake
in terms of like difficulty. Please excuse this
brief intermission. In order to keep this episode
a bit more focused on a few topics, I had to
cut out a lot of really interesting conversation
about remote commentary and commentating for
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sharing helps a great deal as well back to the
show it's into the conversation about how root
setting is so integral and we know this but how
the nuances of root setting are the important
part about high level competition climbing. The,
I've talked to so many root setters over so many
years and been so invested in the, the care that
they put in to every hold is real. Um, and their,
their goal, and I'm a long time ago, so I'm good
friends with a root setter named Tonde Cotillo,
who's one of the best root setters that's ever
done the job. And We would just talk about climbing
and root setting and stuff. And I remember saying
something about, oh, it's climbers versus root
setters. And he was like, it's not. It's not.
It's root setters creating movement that they
want to see done, but not by everyone. So you
have to create risk and you have to create room
for error and you have to create falls and you
have to steal time and you have to steal confidence
and you have to kind of take all these things
from climbers so they don't all just storm up
all your boulders. So they want to see them get
done, but not by everyone. So now the level is
really difficult. If the temperature changes
10 or 15 degrees or it rains an hour before the
final, all of those boulders get harder or easier
and you can't tweak them half an hour before
the final. So there's so many factors that go
into that. There was a slab in the semifinal
in Salt Lake that no one did. None of the male
finalists or semifinalists, finalists? I can't
remember from one. I think it was a semifinal.
I think you mentioned it was semis, yeah. Yeah.
And people in the tower were like, oh, the slab
was too hard. And I talked to the chief and he
was like, the slab was V6. You just, you have
to, nobody decided to trust the foot they had
to trust to lean across to do the rock over to
do the boulder. It's like the boulder wasn't
that hard. They just collectively as a group
didn't do their job. You know, you can, you set
the boulders, you set them out and you're like,
everybody go. And sometimes all the climbers
are on the same page and they're dialed in and
they're crushing it and everything's perfect.
And sometimes collectively they don't climb the
boulders well. And then we get this conversation
where people say the setting was, so people will
say this, the setting at Salt Lake was too easy
or the setting in Salt Lake was too hard. And
I don't, I cannot abide by that. If you want
to talk about. The third semifinal boulder was
a little bit too easy. I feel like, you know,
maybe that sloper could have been worse. Now
we can have a conversation about route setting
and how the depth of understanding you need to
get to, to know why a boulder gets sent or not
sent by six people or eight people or 10 people
or 20 people. But putting these blanket expressions
across, so the route setting was too easy. It's
like maybe two of the boulders were too easy,
but do you want to see four tops in a final or
two tops in a final? And do you want to see,
if you see four tops in a final, do you want
to see five finalists top four boulders? Or do
you want to see one finalist top two boulders
and five finalists top zero boulders? That's
how thin the lines are with World Cup level route
setting. The athletes are too good. And it's
hard to confuse them. It's hard to trick them.
And it's hard to make them fall off. And then
you get... People come up with new hold designs
to try and be like, hey, this is going to make
it hard to see where the boot rubber is or hard
to see where the no -tex is. And people write
in the comments, that's dangerous. Oh, people
are so mad. It's not dangerous to have no -tex,
right? Like the zebras that made their debut,
clear holds. Like we, as collectively as fans
and consumers of competition climbing, if we're
not ready for innovation, we're stunting the...
people whose job it is to build a sport were
taking that away from them. And I have this like
core memory of competing when I was younger.
And there's a set of holds and we mostly competed
on roots. There wasn't a ton of bouldering in
that era and it kind of just came into more and
more. But there was a set of holds that from
the bottom all looked exactly the same. They
were half moons with no texture on the bottom,
which was a thing. Back in the late 90s, early
2000s, there was no text then. And from the bottom,
they all look the same, but one was a sloper
and one was flat and one was in cut. So when
you're reading a competition from the ground,
you're like, oh, that's the good one. And you
get there and it's the flat one and you come
off. We put tape on the inside of holds so they
were slippery. So something you thought was a
bucket now has duct tape inside of it and it's
slippery. They used to re -pour well -known shapes.
For the PCA comps, the pusher open down in Salt
Lake City, the pusher was in the town. They'd
be like, they would remold a hold you thought
you already knew. You're like, oh, I know that
pinch. It's super good inside. No, it's two inches
fatter. So that's how we have to evolve. So root
setting evolves, hold shaping evolves, climbers
evolve. And then it has to go back the other
way. So like, okay, climbers are too good at
small crimps really far away. What do we do?
Now we have volumes. Now we have runny jumps.
Now we have, you know, triple coordination paddle
dynos. Climbers are getting really good at that.
I was talking to Mikael Mauem at the Dockmasters
this year. And I was like, what if we just, if
you set like a really hard, like terrible crimp
boulder, it was like some of these guys couldn't
do it. So route setting, does it swing back to
1990 where all the holds are like a quarter pad
and really far away, but then eventually everyone
catches up. So I think route setting as a, as
an art form and as a core piece of that puzzle,
has to be understood. And I think that broadcasting
allows that kind of peek behind the scenes to
get, you know, oh, this is what actually happens.
They didn't just throw the boulders up and walk
away. This is how much they cared. I've seen
Root Setters after comps like this. Like, I can't
believe the last boulder was too hard. So they're
their own worst critic. And yet there's people
out, you know, hammering away on the YouTube
comments saying their Root Setters don't know
what they're doing. Maybe the root setters at
your home gym who have been root setting for
a year might set boulders you don't like. But
these root setters have been that's their entire
life's passion. It's their life's work and their
job is to create the playing field that we get
to consume. So for me, root setting is this.
It's so important that we continue to have an
education platform for people consuming high
level competition about how difficult it is.
set for this level of climber. Do you know how
often nowadays root setters do these little tricks
like pouring a new hold or something like that?
I've only heard of setters saying that they would
like sand down a hold so that the texture was
a little worse, but I don't even know how often
that happens actually. It happens when their
vision for a boulder doesn't have the hold in
the hold room that they need. So you're like,
I really need a hold of this size with no texture.
It doesn't exist. Go get me the sander. I'm going
to grind the texture off of this one. I have
a picture of my friend Caleb at the Doc Masters
a couple of years ago, like just on a slab, just
like, but he wanted the hold smaller. So it was
a little nubbin and it was too big, but they
didn't have anything smaller and they didn't
want like a big dish that was like flat. They
wanted low profile aesthetic. And so he just
basically just cut the top off. And you see blockers
all the time, right? So you take a hold that's
pretty good and you block half of it. So like,
I really wish I had a three pad crimp that you
couldn't match. Like, I'll just block it. So
that's the easier trick is to take things around
the gym and do a little construction work, a
little bricolage, and then you can do what you
can do. It's pretty hard to decide to re -pour
holds, but you have whole companies that will
not release holds. to the public until after
they've used them in competition. So you're like,
oh, like Flat Hold made the Z. They're like,
oh, we made these new holds. Let's put them in
competition and then we'll sell them. So no one's
climbed on these holds. No one's trained on them.
No one's grabbed it. The first time you grab
it is your first attempt on that finals boulder.
And that's stressful. So now you create risk,
you create anxiety simply by putting something
brand new where you're like, what is that? And
you see them climb. You see them. If you watch
them preview, they're like. what did we do with
that? Like, I guess you just hope it's good.
Or you see somebody jump to something that's
definitely not a hold you could jump to. And
then they're like, that's not what I thought
it was. Okay. Good to know. Okay. So moving on
into something else you're pretty passionate
about. You mentioned you're a big proponent of
non -sanctioned comps. So non -IFSC related.
Why do you think they're so valuable to the community?
Yeah, it is one of my favorite things to talk
about and maybe more in recent years. And it's
not I'm just going to put my broadcast mask back
on and be like, this is not a knock on the IFSC.
Obviously, we should have World Cup level competitions.
Like, it's not a one or the other scenario. So
just we put that caveat, the disclaimer out of
the way. Yeah. Little asterisk on the corner.
Like, don't misquote me, please, if you're watching
this. But it's exclusive. Um, even people that
like to compete won't go to a national championship
because they'll probably get rocked and you got
to spend a lot of money to go and you, your competition
experience is, um, you know, the first three
moves of two boulders in the qualifier. And then
you're like, great. I'm glad I trained all year
for that. Um, so the high level competition is
the bar. Um, and then. For sanctioned local competitions,
you still need to be committed enough to pay
into your federation, to pay into your state
or province, wherever you live, and be in that
space. You need to be a competitor. And not everyone
likes to do that. But some people think competing
is fun. And I think that non -sanctioned comps,
local comps, festival comps, and, you know, something
we'll kind of, maybe I'll sort of... talk to
them more at the end because we can tip into
that um comps that allow you to make money to
continue climbing as a professional climber those
are critical pieces of the the roots and the
growth of the sport because it makes competition
accessible and it makes people maybe grow an
interest in it which maybe makes them go and
watch a world cup um which builds viewership
which means that you can get sponsorship which
means that you can pay athletes more which means
you can put on a better broadcast the dominoes
continue and they start at your local gym putting
on a comp series that costs you 30 bucks and
they said 40 boulders and it's a fun scramble
and you're going to win a chalk bag or a couple
brushes or a t -shirt from the local t -shirt
guy and that idea that you can compete without
needing to be a competitor I think is really
important. You can compete because it's fun.
And if you play other sports, every time you
go play it, you're competing. Any team sport,
you rec softball, anything you're doing as an
adult or in university where you're no longer
on a competitive team where there's people on
the sidelines and coaches and all of those things,
you're playing like an adult level or a rec sport
or, you know, I'm sure. You know, every province,
city, state has some version of, you know, a
beer league, baseball or basketball or squash.
You have all these things. You're always competing.
And then you get to go out and throw the ball
around sometimes. But I go and I play soccer
on Saturdays on a soccer team. Or I go play beach
volleyball at the beach on a team, you know,
every Sunday. But when I go climbing, I just
go to the gym and I try all the problems and
I go home. So it gives you a chance to go and
be in this kind of a little bit hyped up environment.
Maybe they turn the lights off. Maybe there's
a DJ. Maybe you have an MC. Maybe you feel like
there's a hundred or 50 or 20 people watching
you climb a boulder. And you're like, this is
a good time. Like, oh my goodness. I didn't know
this adrenaline rush, this feeling of like, oh,
I can't come back and try this boulder tomorrow.
Oh, I can't, I can't work on it for an hour.
I can't go outside and have a coffee and come
back and be ready to climb it. I have four minutes.
wow, this is exciting. This is testing everything
I need to know. I coach locally and I coach people
who are like, I think I want to maybe go into
the triple threat. We have this comp series through
the winter and the summer or they're, you know,
Friday nights and we shut half the gym. So there's
still people climbing and they're like, I go
and I watch and I see people compete and I think
I want to try it. Like, can you give me some
tips on how to compete? Right. And I'm like,
absolutely. This is what you want to talk about.
This is what you think about it. People either
come back going, that was the worst experience
of my life. I wanted to cry the whole time. Or
they come back and they go, I didn't think I
was going to do that boulder. And then I did
it. I don't think I've ever felt that in a session
like, you know, on Tuesday afternoon with my
friend. So you smash all of that together. And
that's what local level competitions bring. And
if you take it up a notch and you go. Festival
comps, so comps that you would have to travel
to that have a few other ones, like a Sequel
Block, for example, or Adidas Rockstars or the
Jackalope. It happens a couple of times a year
in a couple of different places and has enough
money that people will come to it. But not so
much money that the finals will be full of people
that have flown in for it. And now you have this
really interesting play where you have people
from wherever it is who made the final. And people
who've come in from out of town or who are like
a national level competitor. And now you get
to see what the game is really like. And you're
like, oh, I competed against this person and
I couldn't do this boulder and they smoked it.
Like, wow, that's how good they are. And then
you think that person went to World Cups and
came in 50th 10 times in a row. Okay, so how
good is Meji? Right? How good is Johanna for
real? What is like that magic number of like,
you'll have some people come in, but like it's
mostly locals. I mean, you have to have, I think
you have to have at least $10 ,000 in prize money
to get people to travel. That's, it seems to
be, it should, you should be able to convince
people for slightly less than that. But $10 ,000
split between six people goes pretty quick too.
So it's not like. you know, you're getting, you
know, two and a half or 3000 for first and 500
for third, you know, like it's, it's not, that's
most people, if you're going to come a long way,
that's your plane ticket. Um, if you have a comp
that puts up that brings athletes in and maybe
pay some of their travel. Um, so studio block
doc masters, uh, I'm pretty sure if you have
a world cup ranking, um, I think that's the bar.
If you have a world cup ranking, they'll pay
your hotel. Um, And if you have a sponsor that's
paying for something for you or you have friends
in the town that you can stay with, like there's
all these reasons you would be like, okay, three
grand is a difference. Do I think I can win?
And so then how much does it cost to run these
like bigger non -IFSC comps like Studio Block
or Jackalope or something like that? Well, I
guess that's kind of different because that's
a whole festival. Yeah, and it's a good question,
but it's a tricky question. There's so many.
different ways to break that apart and a lot
of it depends on sponsors and a lot of it depends
on the model so you might have a model where
people pay to be a part of it so the event itself
isn't really putting out a lot of money but other
people are or you have the competitors who are
paying their way in or maybe the competitor fee
is quite low so you have to have an understanding
when you're trying to put on if you're trying
to start a new event um what you can do with
what you have how many volunteers do you have
how many people do you have to pay are you paying
your gym staff or you're saying hey it'd be great
if you guys could volunteer and they all say
never mind i'm not that excited about it you're
like dude um so you do have all of those expenses
if you stream it or not stream it um you're gonna
tack on a 40 or 50 000 or 30 40 50 000 price
ticket on top of that um it's not it it shouldn't
surprise you that a big A big money comp that
brings in international level athletes is going
to cost you a hundred grand to put on. That's
like similar to the budget for IFSC comps last
that I heard, I think. Yeah. And then you get
to offset it. So your decision to keep doing
the event or to put the event on is what can
I offset? Am I charging people to come in? Am
I letting people watch for free? Do I have the
sponsorship? to pay for the event or is, you
know, do I have, am I okay with giving out? So
a lot of sponsors would rather give stuff than
money because an Arc'teryx backpack is worth
$800, but it only costs them 100. So he's like,
am I okay with giving finalists stuff that they're,
you know, goes to get people that go, I want
shoes. I'm like, great. I'm sponsored. Who wants
my shoes? You have all of these tiered decisions
about where to spend money and how to spend it
and who's spending it. There's lots of different
versions of that. I think the chicken and egg
problem is if you spend all the money, people
will come. And then if people come, you can then
spend the money. So the Dockmasters, for example,
I'll put it down as maybe... for me, top three
in terms of organization and idea. So they have,
it's a qualifier. So you can sign up to be in
Open. You know, in the morning, you go and you
compete with the pros and they take your top
six climbs and 18 people go to, or 16, 15 people
go to semifinals. So you just get to sign up,
but you obviously pay as that as a competitor.
Or there's a citizen's comp. So that's just for
everyone else. But they have two citizen's comps.
So they have one on Saturday and your entry into
the citizen's comp is your ticket to the semifinal.
So you compete in the citizen's comp. Then you
get a meal ticket because you paid for food and
beer and they have a caterer come in and you
get like. The foods are really good. So you get
a catered meal and a couple of beers and you
don't leave the gym and you watch the semifinal.
Anybody who's put on a comp, I know there's people
listening to this who are like, everybody competes,
then they go home and then they don't come back
and watch the final. And then you have this sort
of flat local environment where like 50 people
watch a final where you could have had 200 if
everyone that competed just stayed. So they've
created this environment where the right thing
to do, the better choice is to stay at the gym.
And then the same on the, and they charge for
finals tickets and people pay, they sell out.
So people are like, yes, I would happily pay
50 bucks to watch world cup competitors this
far away. But not every climbing community has
that. And the Dutch climbing community, I think
it's most gyms per capita. They don't have a
lot of rock climbing. in the netherlands so they
have a ton of climbing gyms and then therefore
you just sort of breed gym culture you breed
competition culture and it just spreads out but
having events like the dock masters on studio
block masters adidas rock stars to some extent
that provides this anchor of this is world cup
level competition in the final and you get a
chance to peek at it and try the boulders and
qualify and there's always a couple locals that
make the semi Because there's maybe six or eight
World Cup athletes that will come. So there's
room. There's room for you to make the semi and
then get smashed on semifinals boulders and watch
World Cup climbers just go, oh, yeah, I did the
semifinals. It was fine. It was great. That top
five boulders. And you're like, I couldn't start
three of them. Yeah, I do kind of wish we had
something like that. You mentioned that Punk
Rock Masters is kind of a similar structure to
that coming up. Yeah, this is. I'm so excited
for this. I'm so excited. So Mark Bradley, who
is the mind behind the Punk Rock Masters, he
owns the whole room. He grew up, we're of the
same era. He grew up where there was a lot, there
was more sort of, we just competed locally. There's
lots of competitions, grew up skateboarding.
There was always a way to be like, I could do
this. I could make money at this. This could
be what I do for a living. I could be a climber.
I could be a skateboarder. I could be X, Y, Z.
And he also noticing sort of this gap in either
you're competing at this level or you're competing
at this level. And how do we create an environment
where if it's not world cups, can you compete
for enough money to make it worth it? Um, so
he's hosting a comp, um, on, I'm going to make
sure I get the date, right. Cause I don't want
to get the day wrong. I don't have in front of
me, October 11th in Huntington beach. And it's
$50 ,000 in prize money. It's huge. Yeah. It's
huge. It's the second most prize money of any
Masters comp in the world. So the only one, there's
a French comp, the Paris, I'm going to forget
the name of it. And they had $100 ,000. Whoa.
And the fact that, did you know about it? No,
I haven't heard about it. Exactly. That's telling,
right? Um, it got almost no social media. If
you go to their Instagram page, they don't even
have the winners. Whoa. So I, I, I was, we're
going back and forth and Mark and I were talking
about, he's like, I want to say that, um, this
is the, the most prize money of any non -sanctioned
comp, um, ever. I was like, we were talking about
it. So I'm pretty sure this, sort of this comp
in, in Paris was a hundred grand. And I texted
Chloe Cosboy, who was, who was there. Uh, I pwned
him. She's like, it was wild. It was a hundred
grand. And every finalist. It wasn't just podium
spots that got paid. Oh, nice. Yeah. So he's
like, why not put the effort in? It's like a
year and a half of planning and building sponsorship
and doing all these things. Why not have a competition
that brings in that mindset of you can make a
living competing because we've put in the work
to bring in the money that makes it worth it.
And this the first time it's going to be it's.
It's an invite. It's basically a final. So it's
it's it's more there's no qualifier semifinal.
It's just a final. Oh, wow. But it's on the beach.
It's outside. And there's a punk rock show. So
we're just he's just he's twisting it to be like,
you know, we can have this amount of fun. And
similar like the Jackalope is a skateboard comp.
There's motocross, big air. There's bands playing
DJs like it's this. Why wouldn't you want to
go down to Huntington Beach? And watch some of
the best climbers in the world. And the confirmed
athletes, it's like Mejdi, Mika Mauem, Colin
Duffy, Brooke Futaba, Tomoa, Fanny Jube. Like,
this is the level that's going to be climbing
at this comp. And the proof is that if you put
the effort in and you build the stage, people
will come. And that's that mindset is like, what
if, like, what if I built the thing, um, and
gave this reminder to the climbing community
that it is possible to put on events that allow
climbers to make money doing the thing they're
good at. Cause not every climber has sponsorship
that pays for their, their lifestyle. There's
only a handful of people that can afford to climb
full time. Um, and having like an enjoyable life
out of it. Um, not everybody's winning world
cups all the time. Um, so you want to have this
other way to be like, oh, in the off season,
you can go do these events. And the jackalope
was a bit like that. So the sort of the climbers
that are around in North America during the jackalope
events, because you're winning, you know, enough
money to pay a couple months worth of rent, right.
A couple of car payments and go, whatever it
is, you know, three or two or $3 ,000 is not
anything to laugh at when. climbing's ability
to make money bar is unfortunately relatively
low. So I think the value in having competitions
like this, when you stack on community, you stack
on exposure, you stack on the connection that
people can gain by being closer and having a
little more fun. So World Cups are amazing, but
you... It's not the same because it's judges
and rules and you can't do these things. The
Jackalope, we have a different format where it
was a session format. So we take three of the
finalists and put them on the boulder for eight
minutes together. So they just work the boulder.
And now they get to go to a comp and hang out
together instead of being isolated and being
like, oh, I wish I'd seen you top that boulder.
That would have been really cool. It's like,
oh, I get to watch my friends compete in top
boulders. And you put enough money in front of
it that then people are like, oh, I want to do
that. And now you kind of blur the lines between
the chicken and the egg and say, do I want to
go see Tomoa and Brooke and Fanny? And yeah,
I do. Do I want to go see like on the beach?
Yeah, I do. Do I want to not have to go through
the hassle of traveling to Europe or, you know,
only seeing the Salt Lake World Cup come up?
Yeah, in North America, we don't have the same
ability to be like, oh, just hop on the train
for 30 euro and go to Bern and watch a World
Cup. We're like, oh, great. You can watch a World
Cup or you can watch. Nobody goes to watch US
Nationals or the team trials. If you're not connected
in the community proper or local, it's just not
a draw. You're not winning anything, right? They're
winning team spots, not winning money. You don't
get to turn the lights off and like have music
raging. That's not how sanctioned competitions
work. Non -sanctioned competitions, you can play
with what's allowed and not allowed in competition,
and you can make it enjoyable for the athletes.
At the DocMaster, they have streamers go off
when they announce the winner, coming down from
the ceiling, and it's like popping champagne
and spraying it all over the place. It looks
fun. Exactly. That's the word. It's fun. And
it's enough money that you get to keep doing
it. So for me, things like that are so valuable.
And I do want to promote festival -style non
-sanctioned competition as an anchor, a pillar
of... climbing in north america and in europe
anywhere really um we just i think it's more
valuable in north america because we are we lag
behind what's going on in europe simply through
geography you know that's the drawback is that
you can travel around europe in the same amount
of time it takes you to travel around texas right
yeah yeah um so yeah i'm i will i will stand
up and and put my hand forward for do what you
can um and go and then you have to support that
so i think i've heard i was talking to um a couple
friends of mine just a couple weeks ago about
punk rock masters and they're like that's not
real it's like yeah it's real and like it can't
be real like the names that they had sort of
confirmed athletes as they go down the list like
yeah that's what happens when you put up 50 grand
and like yeah oh well no one's ever put up 50
grand how is that possible i was like a year's
worth of legwork to get sponsors to be able to
do that. That's how that happens. Yeah. Is that
how they managed to afford such a big cash purse?
Like just sponsors and - A lot of work. Yeah.
Sponsors, connections, all of those things. And,
you know, I think anybody who's tried, and I
know there'll be people that listen to your podcast
that have tried. to either run or volunteer or
work at their local gym or have been part of
competition climbing and they've tried to fundraise
or find sponsors or find like literally anything
like for a youth comp or a local comp or just
stuff to give their volunteers, they know how
hard it is to cold call businesses and ask for
stuff. There is a finite number of climbing companies
and they cannot give out climbing stuff to every
competition that asks them. And they're also
not making a ton of money. So we keep going back
to this pool. over and over and over again and
be like hey um hi hi evolve can you give us some
shoes i'm like this is like the 50th request
we've had this year for shoes and no we can't
so yeah we sent you some brushes and a couple
of t -shirts that were misprinted how's that
so then you have to start thinking well like
what if i went to walmart and i asked the walmart
guys if they would give me 50 gift cards for
my local competition so fundraising is really
hard and i think You have to go outside of the
climbing box a little bit to really make it work.
So you get, I mean, U .S. Nationals has been
sponsored by Yeti. Yeah. Which isn't a climbing
company. And now there's an insurance company
that's on board, right, that sponsors the U .S.
National Program. So if anybody that's watched
any number of sports will see that most of the
big sponsorships are not sports -related companies.
There's no Nike Stadium in the NBA. Nike doesn't,
didn't buy a stadium. MetLife is an insurance
company. Like all of the real money in big sports
comes from other places. Yeah, I guess that kind
of leads into one of the other hot takes that
you had. Well, what you had mentioned was that
people aren't willing to pay for climbing entertainment.
But I guess that also kind of extends into just
like, like you said, sports brands not being.
Like not being that profitable, I guess. Is that
what it is? Yeah. And it's a fair question because
I did bring it up when we were talking before.
And it's something that I struggle with being
inside climbing media. And I think that the sustainability
of climbing media is like razor thin. Yeah. The
number of people, and I've put polls on my Instagram,
I've talked to, I mean, I've just talked to thousands
of climbers over the years. And every time you
say, would you pay for that? Most climbers say
no. So climbers won't, and it starts at the bottom.
Like, well, why would I pay to enter a comp when
I can just climb those boulders on Monday for
free? Like, I don't know, because it supports
the climbing community. So why wouldn't you?
I have a friend who's been in bobsled forever.
So he's now the high performance director of
Bobsled Canada. And we were talking about like
fringe sports and like how you kind of get money
and where the, where it goes and what happens.
And he said, well, how much of your average person's
gym membership goes to the federation? And I
was like, what? He was like, how much of. Like
if I go and buy a year's gym membership, how
much of that is earmarked to go straight up to
the National Federation? I was like, bro, zero.
It's like, why not? It's like, how many people
have national, have memberships at gyms? And
if you just took 20 bucks a year, I said, because
we've taught, and I've talked about it on a smaller
level and people are like, well, why would I
pay for something I don't do? And that's not
just climbing, lots of sports. Like, why would
I support something? I don't compete. Why would
I want to pay for competition? But your national
team is self -funded. They buy their own uniforms.
They have to buy their own plane tickets to go
to the youth world championships. So we have
this problem where we need money, but we have
people who are unwilling to spend money that's
not to their own kind of benefit path. And then
it grows. So I want to consume climbing media.
I want to watch World Cups. Okay. So you'll have
noticed, and I'm sure lots of people will notice,
that... People say that World Cup climbing in
Europe is now, in quotes, behind a paywall. It's
not. It's on TV. That was always the goal. The
goal was always be big enough to play with the
big kids and be on television. And people are
like, well, I don't want to pay for X, Y, Z.
It's like, okay, well, I want to watch the NBA.
I'm an NBA fan. I love the NBA. So I pay for
cable with the channel. It allows me to watch
the NBA. And so this mindset, even of saying,
why would I pay for cable to watch climbing?
It used to be free on YouTube. It's like, OK,
but we've outgrown free on YouTube. So you want
a better product. You've asked for a better product.
You've asked for a better way to consume it.
You've asked you like you take your laptop and
project it onto your TV. Five years ago, it was
pixelated to watch a World Cup. Now you can watch
it on cable. On TV, by just sitting back on your
couch and watching your 60 inch TV, high res,
that was always the goal. But to say that you
don't want to pay for cable, how can I steal
this and have that be the default rather than,
oh yeah, like my dad watches Premiership Football
and so he just pays for DAZN because you can't
watch Premiership Football in Canada unless you
pay for an extra cable channel. If you want to
watch F1, so all these people that consume sports.
understand that part of consumption is economics.
And I think climbing for so long has had this,
it's owed to me that it's free, that I struggle
with it. And I struggle with people saying, I
wouldn't pay $5 to watch that. It's not good
enough. Okay. So the conversation we had earlier,
how much does it cost to put on a live stream?
If you want the... quality to go up if you want
the cameras to be better higher resolution you
want the graphics to be better you want to have
a producer who can actually talk to me rather
than just passing post -it notes back and forth
at 100 miles an hour yeah then that costs money
oh I don't want to have commercials though I
don't want to stop for a commercial like okay
so now what like where does the money where is
it supposed to come from you don't want to pay
to watch it you don't want advertisers to pay
so that you can watch it Oh, why don't we just
put like someone's logo in a corner of a screen?
Okay. So find me, find me a company that's going
to give me 20 grand to ghost their logo in the
screen, but not show a commercial. So I think
there's so many places where it wouldn't be that
difficult to contribute to climbing media, to
consume competition climbing. But for some reason
we haven't pushed the norm to, of course you
pay for that. Of course I do. Oh, I don't want
to watch, I wouldn't pay to watch Canadian nationals.
Okay. So I don't want to tell you how many times
I've, I've gone to competitions to put on a broadcast
for $0 and spent my own money on my own points
to travel, buy my own food, because I think that
competition and being able to showcase it has
that value. I am super passionate about it. And
I think it's funny that it comes off as a hot
take. And for me, it shouldn't be. That should
just be like, oh, yeah, that man is just speaking
facts about what do you mean people don't want
to pay? Like, I tell other people that don't
watch climbing that people don't want to pay
to watch climbing. And they're like, well, how
do they expect it to get to them? Like, where
is the money supposed to come from? Oh, the IFSC
has millions of dollars in its bank account.
Like, they don't. They definitely don't. So,
and then when you bring it back down a level
and down a level and down a level in the national
championships, I mean, if you want people to
watch, then yes, the quality has to be at a certain
level where people are willing to pay to watch,
but we're there now, right? We're streaming on
YouTube in, you know, 20, like full resolution
to say, would you pay 25 bucks to watch, you
know, all of the NACS comps? It's not a lot of
money. Would you pay 20 bucks to watch the national
championships, which is like seven days of competing?
To me, that shouldn't be a lot of money. The
U .S. did a really good job a couple of years
ago introducing commercials, essentially between
each boulder. So after everyone's finished boulder
one, there's a natural break. And the athletes
don't care if they have to sit for 45 more seconds.
They flipped the script and said, in sanctioned
competition, in order to make the product consumable,
then the show needs to pull more strings than
the competition does. So the producer is at ISO
telling the climber when they can go out on the
mat, not a judge. Because the climbers come off
the boulder and they have them stand. Like this,
facing out where there's a camera and we show
that climber and their sort of immediate emotion
after the boulder they just tried. And then their
current score after that boulder. And then you
wave them off and they run back. And then the
next two come out, which gives the production
team enough time to pull their name up, pull
up their ranking and get them on their boulders.
So now the competition waits for the broadcast.
which is every other sport. Anyone who's watched
any sport live understands TV timeouts. So it
happens X number of times. And climbing, we said,
what if we just did it three times after boulder
one, after boulder two, after boulder three?
And some people think it's fine. And some people
are like, I can't believe they're putting commercials
in climbing. So, I mean, I think we could probably
talk for two hours only about this topic. And
I don't, I'm not here to shame people who...
can't afford to spend money on climbing media
who are very careful with what they do or how
they live their life. It's not about that. It's
about this imbalance of saying, why isn't it
more accessible? Why can't I watch it in higher
quality? And then in the same breath say, no,
I don't want to pay for it. So I do struggle
with that. I have trouble with it. I don't think
that cable is a paywall just because it used
to be free. And if you had told a bunch of climbers
in 1995 that competition climbing would be on
cable tv regularly in a world cup season they
would be like oh my god we're rock stars rock
stars so the snowbird world cup one of the first
competitions the snowbird competition outdoors
on on the side of a building is on cbs so we
started there and then we regressed into people
dirtbag climbers saying oh i want to spend my
money on a new pair of shoes Okay. I think that's
like the most convincing argument for maybe like
why Eurosport and Discovery Plus or whatever
is normal and actually expected. Let's see, taking
a look at time. I think we can move into some
of the Discord and Instagram questions now. So
first one from Omar H5, is the current setting
of dynamic moves a good way to make climbing
more mainstream? A root setting question. Hey,
I... I think that creativity, variety, ingenuity
are super, super important. So anybody that's
trying to do something new or a version of something
that creates exciting movement, I think is valuable.
So dynamic movement has become a way to make
very good athletes make mistakes. So it's a very
good way to separate competition. So a paddle
dyno, you're probably not going to flash it.
Boom. I immediately don't have a tie. I'm winning,
right? Great. No ties. Perfect. Um, some people
won't get a paddle dyno. Some people won't get
like, you know, something where you have to twist
or push or, you know, bend or like land or coordinate.
So I think it's important in that way is that
it is a, it's an element of movement that we
have always done indoors. We've had dyno comps
since. I mean, we had dino competitions at World
Cups as like a whole separate, there was a world
record, right? They had basically a ruler with
a slot and you could move, they would move the
holdout on like ruler demarcations. And it was
a diagonal, I think maybe 30 degrees. And it
would move it out until you had a winner. And
then they would try and be how far can you make
a single dino and stick it. At World Cups? Yeah.
Oh. You had no idea. Early 2000s. My friend,
Darhan Alshambo, has been climbing, competing
in Canada now as a gym owner in Edmonton. Won
one of those. Was a good climber, but was so
springy. So dino comps have been a part of climbing
for longer than people might think, especially
if they've only been climbing for five or 10
years. They're like, oh, this feels new. Time
is a flat circle when it comes to inventing,
right? I like to draw kind of an interesting,
what I think is someone who's non -musical, but
there's only so many notes. But can you find
a different way to combine those notes in a way
that makes people think that this is new? So
then we get musical genres and we get things
that are interesting or things that we might
kind of be thrown off by, things that might,
you know. be offensive to our ears but we understand
that some other people might like it so i think
that climbing movement there is we can only do
so much like we've created a bunch of climbing
holds we've we've created what we think is physical
movement and then someone says well what if you
could just jump further like i can jump further
but there's a limit to how far you can jump right
so if you look at like the high jump world record
the long jump world record it grows by like incremental
amounts every every other year or two years,
three years. So you can't just make the moves
bigger. You can't just make the move smaller,
the hold smaller, because that's not realistic.
You can only make them so slopey or so slippery.
So now we've got no text problems or people are
just like, are putting water on their hands and
shoes. Like immediately the climber's adapted.
Perfect. Love it. People licking their hands,
right? Like, how do I grab this no text? So I
think that big dynamic movement has always been
a part of climbing because it's showy, it's exciting,
it's fun. It's like how I can jump further than
you is a very base level. I can run faster than
you. I can jump farther than you. I can pick
up a heavier thing than you can. These are like
core elements to physical movement. And I think
that I'm here for it. I mean, you make a creative
way. The dino comp at the Jackalope, I was like,
I'm only going to give out money to somebody
that sticks a 360 dino. And that's like, people
like never have never tried that before. Like,
I don't even know, like, what would that even
look like? So I think it's fun to play with movement.
And I think that there are elements in which
if you are new to route setting that you should
be careful for safety and like, don't set a big
Donald over her, like a protruding volume perhaps,
but be creative, right? Oh, the only way you're
going to stick this is if you land your foot
at the same time, or you get two hands out. So,
you know, the. The version of sort of the paddle
dyno is not that different from the version of
like kind of a like a little big dynamic movement,
little half match to a pinch that you wouldn't
be able to hold if you didn't flip this one over.
And I did that in 2003. So, yeah, I'm here for
it. I think it's a great way to make people think
about how to move their bodies, how to initiate
power, how to control power. That's part of dynamic
climbing. I think it's a core pillar of climbing
movement. Makes sense. Next one from Coach Susan
McGuire. I think this one was pretty interesting.
Many years from now, what do you want to be remembered
for since you've done so much in the climbing
space? Man, that is an existential question.
I think I would. like to be remembered for having
grown helped to grow knowledge interest and visibility
of the sport i think i would like to be have
looked back and for myself as well and said i
did what i could to keep climbing moving in the
direction that will make it successful so it's
it's a tricky question um i don't want to be
famous right That's not what broadcasters do.
But they get to have those moments where the
timing of everything was right and you get to
be a part of something and then take that and
build on it and see an idea and say, hey, hey,
remember when that worked? What if we tried that?
And if that became the norm, I would love to
be part of the movement that makes climbing media
grow into a place where it's just kind of. almost
taken for granted. Like, of course I could watch
that on TV, right? Bam. The foundation has been
laid. That's good to know. Okay. Next one from
Sue Lamb888. What is your current relationship
with CEC? So climbing Escalade Canada? That's
good. Your French is excellent. Oh, thank you.
Very good. Very good. I do not have a role with
the CEC. So I am essentially a contractor for
doing events. So we have toyed with different
models of having a succession plan because I
think that we should grow the base. It's such
a funny thing to say. I should not be thinking
I need to go to an event because no one else
will do it. So I think we need to grow some talent
in the space where other people feel comfortable
taking on a broadcast. So we talked about sort
of a succession plan, like a training ground
almost of having different co -commentators come
in for different events. And so they have an
opportunity to be exposed to commentary and see
what that looks like and do they like it. I think
I'm always surprised by people that say, Um,
no, they never want to try commentary. Um, because
some people are pretty cavalier about being,
you know, how hard could it be? And how could
this, I'm like, would you want to try it? Like,
Oh Lord, no, I don't want to try it. Um, I just
want to have an opinion on it. Um, and people
who've done it once and they say, ah, man, that's
not for me. Like, because it is a lot of work
and I won't, we won't get into necessarily, you
know, all that side of it, but it's a huge amount
of work and it's a big mental drain to do an
event. And I'm like, you're always exhausted
after doing a broadcast. And I. But I think that
having a model where we grow is important. And
I would like to get back to that maybe with the
CEC and say, I would be happy to do mock competitions.
So the first time I work with a new co -commentator,
sometimes I'll say, go watch a competition with
the sound off and record yourself. What would
you say in that moment? Or I'll go and I've been
on a comp. So I've done this with someone before.
Canadian Nationals was their first time they'd
ever done a broadcast. We just pulled up a World
Cup that they hadn't watched. And I just think
I picked one I hadn't watched. And we turned
the sound off and we just we're like on other
sides of the country from each other. And we
just commentated and then we debriefed on it.
And they're like, oh, my God, I froze here. And
I said that I talked over you and then I threw
it to you and you get people on broadcast and
they just go. Yeah. Like I like teed you up to
have an opinion and they're like. they just their
brain goes into some sideways mode so i think
that having we have a root center development
program we have a coaching development program
we have long -term athlete development i think
that there's still room to have let's make sure
that we have people available to broadcast a
comp because if there's a world cup if i'm i
get back into doing world cups which is a whole
kind of other side thing but if i get back into
doing world cups or the olympics since there
is some competing event in Canada that we should
be broadcasting, then it shouldn't be, well,
I guess we won't broadcast it because we don't
have anyone who's experienced enough to do it.
So I think there's room to grow experience at
that federation level, but I don't carry a role
with them at all. That practice, like practice
commentating World Cup is a good idea. I feel
like that would have been helpful. I'm one of
those people who like, I did it once and I was
like, Ooh, this is not, this is not good for
me. Yeah. And you can practice something and
realize that you can practice and be good at
it. And you might practice something and go,
wow, that's just, it doesn't align with how I
process information or how I like to speak or
whatever it is. It's obviously, it's not easy.
I'm not here to say it's the hardest job in the
world. I'm not trying to play that card. It's
like, oh, you couldn't possibly do broadcast
commentary. But it is challenging and it is something
you have to work quite hard at in order to deliver
the product that you think is appropriate for
the audience. Yeah, just like climbing. It's
crazy how much the pressure makes a huge difference.
Even people who are wildly chatty just before
a broadcast starts and then just go. They just
suddenly. don't know what to say or don't think
they had something to say and the pressure really
does go to go what's going to happen and um for
whatever reason um the way my brain is wired
that focuses the pressure of i sat down in the
chair for the first world cup you know went through
the whole thing i had the list all the thing
headsets on the screen of the black and the african
junior like five four i was like here we go like
you know obviously i had some butterflies i was
nervous But I wasn't nervous and, you know, shut
down. Yeah. No, I think it's kind of like what
you said earlier about you have to keep all these
other things in mind in terms of like how people
will react to what you're saying and like you're
not allowed to curse and stuff like that. It
all like adds up in your brain as like and then
you just kind of freeze because you're like,
I can't do this. I can't do this. I can't do
this. And it is something that the way if we
go back to practicing, it's something that you
can practice because the. Like if you and I are
doing a broadcast together, A, it helps if we
know how each other speak. So then you know if
I'm pausing because I want to keep talking or
if I'm pausing to give you room to speak. And
then we don't talk over each other. And then
you kind of layer in this idea that while you're
talking, I'm listening to you because I need
to know what you're saying. And then, but I'm
also watching the competition to decide what's
happening next. And when you finish, I need to
decide to take your idea and move on with it.
Take your idea and end it. Let it sit on its
own. Give it back to you to continue. Cut you
off and go to the action. Take what you're saying
and pull it into the action, et cetera, et cetera.
Meanwhile, there might be a producer in your
ear saying, hey, if Colin does this boulder in
two more tries, he's going to win. And you're
like, you can't say, uh -huh. And you can't like
look. towards the sky you just have to pretend
that there is no one talking in your ear while
you're talking and listening and watching and
doing all of these mental calculations so you
can practice having a conversation with somebody
with a purpose and kind of a background that
you are basically talking to it's a conversation
about climbing woven through a competition that
has moments that need to be addressed. And then
you have to remember someone's name and how to
pronounce it. And whether or not this is like,
you forget what boulder they're on. Like we're
on boulder three? Question mark? Yeah. It's too
much. We got to move on. It's too much. My brain
is, it can't handle this. Okay, we'll do one
last one from M. Durkee. And I don't really know
the meaning of this, so you might have to give
some context here. What's your golf handicap?
Mark is a climber who has also turned to golf
and I started golfing a few years ago. So it's
people that we golf with. It's high. It's much
higher than I would like it to be. Well, okay.
What does that even mean? I don't golf. Never
really watched golf. I know like the basics.
So golf is all golf courses are par is 71 or
72. So your handicap is your average number of
strokes over par. So if you're new to golf, you're
going to you're going to shoot in the hundreds.
You're going to be over 100. So your your handicap
is like 32, 33, 34. Like it's the number of like
shots between par and what you scored on the
golf course that round. Yeah. So my golf game
is not where I would like it to be. Golf and
climbing are like weirdly in opposition of each
other because they both take quite a lot of time.
Any like does anything transfer you feel like?
I mean. In all seriousness, yeah, a few things.
It's a very complex movement. The golf swing
is one of the hardest things that anybody that's
listening to this play golf is nodding right
now. They're like, heck yeah, golf swing is one
of the hardest things you could do. And when
I started playing golf, I was like, the ball
doesn't move. Are you kidding me? Like I play
tennis, like I played squash, I played ping pong.
I've done all these things where the ball is
moving and you still have to hit it. So the ball
is just sitting there all the time. How hard
could it possibly be? It's really hard. A golf
swing is super complex. And you have to turn
it into instinctual learned movements. You have
to have sort of wired parts of your brain that
have a repertoire that just have a natural. You
kind of fall into this shot means this, this
means that, do this, do this, do this, do this.
If you try to think about every piece of each
muscle group, every time you climb, you would
lose your mind and you'd stumble and trip. If
you tried to think about everything it takes
to walk or jump or go up or downstairs, you would
lose your mind. So these are things that are
so natural movement -based that we take them
all for granted. So easy climbing, good climbers
take for granted. New climbers take nothing for
granted. New climbers are... are thinking all
the time of what do you mean i need to move my
like three of my limbs at the same time like
i just want to go left left right right and this
game is really hard and i'm pumped and i'm doing
pull -ups you're like no no you want to chain
them together right so you have to learn to not
think about how to initiate a pull while at the
same time twisting turning reaching letting go
how long to pull for how much to pull how much
to push etc etc and a golf swing you just have
to stand over the ball and go just come through
and do your natural swing motion so in terms
of physical literacy in terms of like knowledge
of movement um there's tons and tons and tons
of parallels and it's wildly frustrating and
anybody that's projected anything for more than
a month and also frustrating is to just why can't
i do this one thing um golf is wildly frustrating
why can't i just do this one thing slightly better
yeah the frustration um they're best friends
no i get that and the golf stick is really long
so it's just The margin of error is very small
because it's just so far away from you. And it's
this big. And if you get it too high or too low
or too in or too out, you've missed. Like the
sweet spot on the head of a golf club is like
the size of a golf ball. Yeah. I mean, I missed
the entire ball anyway. So I'm not at that point
yet. You and most people who try for the first
time. And if you walked into a climbing gym and
I said, oh, the first thing you need to do is
hit this dino, you would miss. You need to learn
the movement pattern. You need to learn what's
important. You need to learn how to anchor and
how to have balance and kind of push -pull and
all those sorts of things. There are interesting
similarities when it comes to ability to move
in a certain way. Okay, cool. Well, I think that
is all the questions I had. Any last -minute
words of wisdom or things you really got to get
out there? Two things, if you'll allow me, the
platform. The first one is be a fan. Be a fan
of the sport that you participate in. Be willing
to promote other people's success. Be willing
to promote the sport's success as a whole. Be
willing to give people grace who are also doing
that. Be willing to give people grace to enjoy
the sport at the level that they want to enjoy
it at. I coach people who have... been climbing
at v5 for a decade and never been happier and
just want to learn to be a little bit more effective
or do something different um and it's it's important
that we continue to create a space even in competition
that allows everyone to consume it and enjoy
it at a level of understanding that they think
is cool or fun and if they want to you know buy
You know, we don't do this in climbing, right?
You don't, I don't know how many people have
a poster of their favorite climber up on their
wall. But when I was skateboarding as a kid,
I had Tony Hawk posters. Like I had posters everywhere.
You know, I wore shirts. Like I consumed, I was
a fan of the athletes that did the sport that
I was trying to be good at. I read magazines
that did all these things. And I think climbing.
is dangerously close to i do it too so you know
they're not like why would i be that infatuated
with someone that's better than me at this thing
or i don't compete so why would i watch climbing
you might learn something about how you can move
you might see something that will help you on
your project outside so i think be a fan of the
sport that you participate in um and just be
open and be like accepting of the fact that lots
of people like to do the sport in a different
way and for some of us um competing is inherent
in who we are and wanting to share that and wanting
to create a platform where competition can grow
and flourish is really, really important. And
I think allow that to grow and maybe try it out.
If you don't watch competitions, watch a competition
and just say, man, that's pretty cool. That was
wild. So I think that's the, that's something
that I always want to tell people. And then the
other thing is that if you, it's my, it's always
my goal to try and provide knowledge. I like
to just. transmit knowledge about climbing i'm
a coach at heart and i take that mindset into
broadcasting so if you watch a broadcast where
someone is explaining something at a level that
you already know appreciate that that commentator
or that person or that color analyst is is trying
to share knowledge so that someone might grow
into the sport even more and find a way to appreciate
it even more so there's this wonderful balance
where we think, we don't really know how hard
World Cup finals boulders are. They don't grade
them. And they're not V14, right? That's just,
you can't climb V14 in four minutes. So sometimes
the boulders are not physically, they're not
gradably that difficult. It's just all the other
factors that smashed it together. So we kind
of have this like, I don't know, how hard is
it really? Like, could I do a World Cup semifinal
boulder? Like, you could not. Step one. Being
able to impart that knowledge for me is really
important. And that comes down to being able
to break down movement in a way that even if
you've been climbing for a decade, maybe you
didn't think about timing in that way. So I've
coached people who've been climbing for 10 years
who climb V8, V9, V10. And there's something
to be learned at every level about how people
move. So maybe watch with an open mind because
the broadcaster is trying to give you some. deeper
knowledge about movement why something's difficult
why somebody that is a previous world cup you
know gold medalist is falling off a boulder that
looks like it should be very doable and don't
just think that they're talking below you or
they're talking to people who've never watched
before i think there's something to learn and
that's why we have coaches to to be able to learn
and this is my platform to be able to help Get
super high level climbing or national level climbing
or festival level climbing and get that information
over to you and kind of help you understand why
it's exciting and why it's important. Great words
of wisdom to end on. But actually, OK, also really
quick. I just had a random thought. I wish climbing
gyms showcased competition climbing a bit more
in the gym. We can't spend too much time diving
into this, but I just feel like that would help
with the whole connecting with competition climbing
or seeing a move on TV and being like, I could
probably do that or it looks easier or something
like that. Watch parties, right? Yeah. Our gym
has a TV up behind the desk and when the World
Cup's on, they'll just show replays that go on
YouTube. It's funny every now and then I'm in
the gym and I'm like, hey, that's me. And people
are like, wait a minute, that's you? That guy
climbs at my gym? Like, Oh, maybe, you know,
so you get to have those moments. You're like,
Oh, I've seen that person that I just saw at,
you know, competing at us nationals. They climb
in my gym or I watched, um, like a, a para world
cup. And I'm like, Oh, you know, um, maybe I've
seen adaptive climbers in my gym. Like, are we
doing, you know, more to, to competitions? Awesome.
Like, wait a minute. Like, this is totally like,
I didn't know that that was that available. So
yeah, watch parties. Especially if it's someone
locally from you that's competing. And I love
that idea. Or just have the TV up. So yeah, I
think there's lots of things that gyms can do
to make it exciting. Yeah, I can't believe it's
just not more common now that I think about it.
Absolutely. I'm with you. I fully support that
idea. I think it's great. Well, on that note,
I think we're a little bit over time. But thank
you so much for joining me today. Anything you
want to shout out or let people know where they
can find you? Um, I'm on Instagram as MC Pete
Woods and I try and post, um, you will see pictures
of my cats. So that's also part of the deal.
Um, but I, I try and post a lot of events that
I'm at, um, and try and promote climbing. Um,
so MC Pete was also my website. So if you're
curious about other things that I've done, uh,
you can go to mcpwoods .ca. Um, I've kind of
got a little bit of background. Um, and if you
want me to come coach in your city, I'm, I also
coach, I teach some pretty interesting programs.
So I'm happy to go. That's part of the things
that I do to stay involved in climbing. And if
you see an event that I'm promoting, just pass
it around, you know, spread the word because
the growth, being able to show media connection
is super important. You know, even like the Pop
Rock Masters, just go. If you're in California,
go to Huntington Beach and watch it. You know,
follow along on Instagram and be like, and get
excited about the fact that these athletes are
coming to California to clap. That's what competition
should do for you. When it's coming near you,
you should be like. Oh, I could go watch that.
Oh, I'm too far away. I can watch it on, on a
broadcast. Absolutely. I mean, awesome. Well,
thank you again. And it was amazing to talk to
you. It was great. Thanks for the really good
questions. Good conversation. I had a blast.
So I appreciate you, you know, putting a podcast
like this together, which is, I mean, I love
the name. The first time I saw it, I was just
to finish off. I love the name because that's
been this awesome real climbing. People back
in the 80s were like, sport climbing is neither,
right? It was tri -climbing or nothing. And bouldering
is just playing. So we've always had these sort
of expressions. And there are people that think
that competition in plastic climbing is not real
climbing. And it absolutely is. So I love that
you've created this platform for people to come
and share their passion. And there's so many
places that it touches. And anybody that climbs
in a gym consumes plastic. It's a blast. So I
appreciate it. And I had a great time. Yeah,
thank you. Thank you so much for making it to
the end of the podcast. Don't forget to like
and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you
are a super big climber. If you're listening
on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you
rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion
on the free competition climbing discord linked
in the description. Thanks again for listening.