Jakob Schubert told me, he said, I'd rather you
drop me to the floor than short rope me. Instinctively,
I dropped the speed starting module, grabbed
the rope. He finished it. I got pulled over the
PA system. I had burns in my hand. I may not
know who's going to play the Olympics. It's one
of those things where just, if that's your goal,
you may want to reevaluate your goals. sobbing
in the corner because they didn't make the cut
to go to semis or finals and have a parent hover
over them and said, well, you should have climbed
better. Welcome to another episode of the That's
Not Roll Climbing podcast. I'm your host, Jinni,
and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today,
Ty Hardaway. Ty has been around and he's done
it all. He's been competition belaying, judging,
and coaching for over 10 years, and he started
the belay programs at USA Climbing and the IFSC.
In this episode, we'll learn about all things
belaying, get behind -the -scenes insight, and
hear about how the scene has changed since the
Olympics came into play, leading to some toxic
parents. He has so much knowledge and just so
many interesting little anecdotes, you'll understand
why he's so beloved in the competition scene.
I hope you enjoy this episode with Ty. Real quick,
I'm excited to announce my new sponsor helping
make this podcast episode possible, Mad Rock
Climbing. I got fitted with their brand new line
of high -performance shoes, the D2 .1s. They
just came out December 6th, but you might notice
a few of your favorite gomp climbers are already
wearing them, like Oscar Beaudrin from Team Canada,
and also... Me. This is the first time I've gotten
to wear their shoes for an extended period of
time, and I'm actually super impressed with the
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free to message me if you have any questions
about the shoes or sizing, and you can use the
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entire MedRock order. Info will be in the description.
Back to the show. Are you getting ready for Youth
Nationals in Portland? Yes, I am. In fact, I'm
leaving tomorrow morning, very, very early, 6
o 'clock Eastern time. Oh, no, I hate those.
It's okay. I'm not paying for it. Oh, sure, but
I'm waking up, I guess at like 4. Well, the worst
is the flight they booked back for me so they
don't have to pay for another night is Red Eye.
Yeah, from the West Coast to the East Coast.
I'm too old for that crap. I guess it's like
flying to Europe, though. Yeah, but it's not
quite long enough for a solid sleep. Exactly.
Yeah, that's kind of why I don't go back to the
East Coast very often. Oh, I'm glad you empathize.
Where are you right now? Just in San Diego. Oh,
I have good friends in San Diego. Awesome. It's
a great place, yeah. Well, I was born in Los
Angeles and I grew up in Claremont, so San Diego
is like a cousin to me. Nice, yeah. Yeah. But
I grew up in Pennsylvania, so I should go back
every once in a while, but it's just, it's so
far. Yeah. San Diego is a good place for anybody.
That's cool. Oh yeah. That's so nice. Is there
anything you need to like specifically mentally
prepare for with going to youth nationals? Actually,
yes. You know, I, my, my career has sustained
in belaying because I've also become quite a
a fitness person. I know it's really embarrassing
thing to say, but I work out several times a
week, but I also do a lot of balance and focus
and just stillness exercises, which I think really
helps my belaying career. The second part of
Youth Nationals, I will coach. So I get to be
a lot more, a lot more chill. The kids used to
call me Coach Uncle Ty, which is cut. I think,
oh yeah, you can see it. There's a sign right
there that says cut. It's the Coach Uncle Ty,
sorry. So yeah, this is going to be a lot of
fun. Wait, what kind of kids do you coach? Are
you part of a team? I am part of a team. I'm
the head speed coach for Sport Rock and I have
11 athletes going to this championship. It's
a secret side hustle. the head speed coach at
Sport Rock for four years, and I've coached speed
going back to when my daughter was a competition
climber. Wow. So have you speed climbed much?
You know, some of the best coaches in sports
don't actually participate actively in the sport.
They are more theorists and students of said
sport. I've tried it a couple times way back
in the day, and every single one of my athletes
would probably lap me several times at this point.
I guess I don't know that many coaches, but I
would think you would have to be at like a certain
level or like maybe previously. Previously, one
could say I was at a certain level. I mean, I've
climbed. I've climbed for a very long time. And
I think one of my historical touchstones is I
started climbing in eighth grade. And for me,
that was 1978. Whoa. Okay. Yeah. This was in
Mr. Lashi's field studies class, a class we actually
had in eighth grade. And we would, you know,
do ropes and knots and, you know, talk about
belaying and rappelling and stuff. Then we'd
go up into the hills and do it. I'm surprised
that you had a class in eighth grade for that.
It was so rad. And then there were years and
years where I didn't climb. And then when my
kid was five. She said we were in Berkeley and
she said, I want to go to a skate park and a
climbing gym. So my friend Rich took us to both
of those places. And she walked into Ironworks
and she looked around and she said, I'm going
to do this. And that's how it all started. It
is how it all started because but she was too
young to do it then at that point. So, you know,
a little while later, she did the birthday party
and then rec club and then team. And then she
came off team as an independent climber. And
she had, you know. She had a good career. Okay.
So then when did you get into climbing after
eighth grade? Off and on, I went with friends
to like what were rudimentary climbing gyms.
You know, some were just like cinder block walls
with some cinder blocks missing and some holds
glued. And some were like the early, there was
early, you know, earth treks here in this area
that, you know, my friend Al would take me to
and other people would go to. You know, I really
learned lead first. And that's basically all
I do because I don't want to have the safety
and comfort and the mental safety net of top
rope. I don't want to know the difference. I
just want to know that if I'm high on a clip
and I fall, I'm going to fall. I don't want that
to be an impediment. I'm kind of weird like that.
Well, so are you saying you never top rope? Rarely,
rarely, rarely top rope. I'd say, you know, nine
out of ten times I'm going to, more than nine
out of ten times it's going to be lead. And I've
bouldered a little bit, but, you know, I'm old
and things break and things hurt. I understand
boulders. I've judged boulders to a very, very
high level. And so then how did you get into
volunteering? I'm assuming that's after your
daughter started climbing? a local event, which
is now called a qualifying event for youth. And
she was maybe 11 or 12 or I forget what age.
And it was a lot of parents talking about competition
climbing and judging and belaying. And I decided,
well, I think I'll help out so I can take my
introvert itself and go do something else. And
so I started judging first, which is pretty funny.
And I've judged to a very high level, as I mentioned,
all the way through every U .S. championship
and primary boulder for, like, World Cup, which
is an honor, a privilege, and just absolutely
stunning thing to be able to do. But then after
a while, I knew how to belay. I was a pretty
good belayer. But I was at another comp, and,
you know, they took the volunteers to the back,
and my intention was to judge. And the person
organizing it said, okay, belayers on this side,
judges on this side. And this one guy kind of
raised his hand. He goes, well, I know how to
belay on paper. So my friend John took him and
said, you're a judge. And he grabbed me and he
said, you're a belayer. So that was my first
competition belaying experience. Now I've done
a lot. I probably am the highest mileage competition
belayer, if not in the country, perhaps. close
to on the planet i know a couple people have
done it for years and years and years but yeah
i've done belaying is what i do i consider myself
in this activity to be a belayer sure yeah and
i guess not even a judge either even though you've
done world cup judging as well yeah i don't you
know i'm a level three u .s judge and i've judged
every series but i it's It's not what I identify
as. Okay. Do you have any crazy judging stories
from back in those days? I've judged through
last year. I don't think I've judged this year,
but I've judged. I was asked to be a finals judge
at Youth National Championships last year, and
I did a North American cup. You do it all. Yeah,
because they know what they're going to get.
Pretty dedicated to it. But crazy stories? Yeah,
I was judging national team trials. And the person
I was judging with, my secondary, was a parent
first, which is fine. You know, you can be a
parent first. But I looked down and I saw that
she was texting scores to grandma. And then she
started actively rooting for her child. very
awkward because we're supposed to not be biased
and such but it was like uh yeah let's uh let's
tighten up the standards a little bit because
you know anyone witnessing this could think well
there there may be some sort of either focus
lapse or bias lapse really sweet person really
wonderful person but it's not the place to text
grandma with the scores yeah okay how was this
like recent or Yeah, it was a few years back.
And I've had some really good mentors in judging.
Like I think the first people I really judged
with USA Climbing at a high level was like Tammy
Pelican and John Kelly. And those are the people
that brought me on. And then I just advanced
from there and I got my certification and all
of that stuff. I even have like a certified judge's
shirt, which I'm extremely proud of. Well, I'm
glad you are still proud of your judging background.
I am proud of it. I think I'm pretty good at
it. It's just, as one chases one's passions,
I think belaying is where it's at for me. And
if I don't judge, it opens up room for other
people to come in and get that experience too.
And you said that you think you're good at it.
What makes a good judge versus a bad judge? And
similarly with belaying, what makes a good belayer
and bad belayer? focus in a relaxed manner. I've
judged with people who I notice they're watching
the action on another route than we're supposed
to be watching the climber. And there's other
people, and I'm not saying this in a derogatory
fashion, but they're fans. They're fans first
and then they're volunteers second. They're watching
to see what the outcomes are. They're seeing
how a particular climber is climbing at that
point, whether they're directly in front of them
or in a route around them. Or, you know, texting
grandma scores, which, you know, I don't want
to sound too critical about that, but it just
took away from the judging. But what makes a
good judge is someone who can kind of detach
from being outcome oriented where everyone falls
in the categories to just being able to relax
and focus on one thing. You know, I've seen judges
go up to a problem and kind of climb their way
through it. When my philosophy as a judge, as
a head judge, is focus on the start, you know,
the four -point start, focus on control of the
zone, focus on the top. We don't have to climb
it. In fact, it's really exciting when someone
absolutely breaks the beta and it's like, whoa,
I didn't see that coming. But, you know, a lot
of judges are eager. Someone will get to the
top and they are clipboard up. Oh, they fell
off. And notoriously, you know, I was a judge
in 21, but this event, 21 World Cup, when Brooke
won and Sean won too. But, you know, Yanya went
up for a top and she kind of slid off and everyone
was going absolutely nuts. But my clipboard stayed
in my lap and people were mad that I didn't award
the top. But upon appeal, it was not a top. She
climbed it again. She got it. Sadly. When we
do look at the outcome, she probably didn't perform
as well as she wanted to. But you have to absolutely
steel yourself to focus on the start, using the
zone, or controlling the zone and controlling
the top. You can't prematurely award something
that didn't happen. Because internationally,
appeals will come just flying in. They're like...
They're like darts just coming at you. And I've
sustained a lot of appeals and I've felt I've
done a good job. I had one climber, you know,
pretty famous climber. He got to the start and,
you know, I said, hey, can you come? I didn't
say it like that, but in essence was, can you
come down? That wasn't a start. And he decided
to argue it right there on the spot that, you
know, I did start right. That was a start. You
know, I'm going to sit here and appeal it. Well,
his clot kept ticking. And then upon appeal,
it was not a legal start. He could have just
used that time to get the start. And the head
IFC judge, the JP, said, hey, you know, you did
a really good job. A lot of people would have
just said, oh, okay, and let it go. IFSC events
and for USA events are volunteers. The head judging
officials are people that deploy and travel and
are assigned to these things. But some people
are fairly new at it and some people are very
experienced at it. So there's a lot of variation.
And then for belaying? What makes a good belayer,
again, is, you know, there's a certain fitness
level. There's a certain honesty you have to
have with your body. If your neck is killing
you and you haven't trained for looking up into
the sky for hours, you have to be able to say,
hey, can I go take a rest? Because once you're
in pain, you're not going to belay as well. Well,
wait, how do you train your neck? Is this like
F1 training? Oh, pretty much, yeah. Wow. Specifically,
what I do is there's an exercise I use with an
elastic band. You basically put it behind your
head, you pull tension, and you hold it for periods
of time. And it's a calisthenic exercise that
just trains the strength in your neck for holding
your head looking straight up like an idiot.
Wow. And we don't really use belay glasses. They're
acceptable, but we don't use them. in high -level
competitions, championships, and elite events,
mostly because, and especially in close proximity,
like quali rounds, there's people right next
to you, there's climbers right next to your climbers.
Cognitively, the glasses will lock you into one
place, and your brain will say, oh, I'm focused
on this, whereas there's things happening left,
right, on the ground, left and right, that you
really need to be aware of. So you'll see a lot
of blares. in these close proximity situations.
You will see them move before someone falls to
their right, who may fall directly in there because
they're processing not only their climber, but
the climbers on the routes adjacent and the blares
on the ground adjacent. It's headier than a lot
of people know. And it's physically and mentally
grueling at times, especially for long qualifying
rounds. Yeah, how long are like qualifying rounds
usually? Back in the day, we did like open nationals
with like four belayers. And that was like six
hours of nonstop belaying for four dudes. Now
we try to deploy in the program working in pairs
or working three people to two problems called
the 3 -2. And, you know, rounds are typically,
you know, two to four hours. But we're working
in pairs and in trios now. So you have an opportunity
to. to give your body a little bit of rest. And
while you're resting, you're watching the other
belayer to make sure they're not pulling a knot
or that their bag hasn't fallen, things like
that. But it is a way to, to relax the body.
Interesting. Yeah. I had no idea. So yeah, you've
been belaying for many years, seen a lot of volunteers
belaying. What are some of like the most dangerous
common belay practices you've seen at competitions?
The most dangerous. ballet practices at competitions
is just a lack of focus. A lack of focus will
lead you down the path of trouble. You know,
on one hand, during a climb, you don't want to
short rope a person, but you also don't want
to leave too much slack in for the first few
clips. And I have had climbers, professional
climbers. Jakob Schubert told me, he said, at
world championships, he said, listen. And I'd
belayed him before, so he was being very funny.
He said, listen, I'd rather you drop me to the
floor than short rope me. So I looked at him
and I said, well, I can do that. And he just
howled with laughter. It was a moment. But you
have to protect the bottom where someone can
deck. But you also have to be... very quick with
giving slack on those. And then as they climb
higher, you have to be able to give slack. I
mean, we've seen recent world cups where there
have been technical incidents because of rope
control, which is something you don't want to
have. And I'm friendly with the JP for that event.
And we had discussions about it and he helped
me shape some of the language for the IFSC belay
program because you, it, it's the last thing.
An event, a worldwide broadcast event needs is
for there to be a technical because of the belaying.
It's embarrassing to the belayers. It's embarrassing
to the event. And it's not fair to the athlete
who, in this case, had to climb it again. That
is a grueling proposition, both mentally and
physically. I guess what comes to mind with dangerous
belaying is that incident that had happened.
I guess it was probably a few months ago now.
Yeah, I've seen the training exercise where the
belayer was talking to another coach and the
climber fell to the ground. Yeah. Is that what
happened? Yeah, that's sad and unfortunate. You
see at the beginning of that video, if we're
talking about the same one, a belayer belaying
with a gree -gree and another person comes into
the frame and they began talking. And then at
some point you just see splat. And it really,
really... It's sad for everyone involved, and
I did not immediately throw any blame to anyone,
but I'm kind of a nerd, and so when I'm belaying
someone at practice, it's pretty much the same
belay I'm giving them in a competition. If someone
comes and tries to talk to me, I'll say, not
now. Yeah, decking is the worst. Of course it's
the worst. Decking from height is the worst.
I've seen it happen. I've been at comps where
it's happened. It throws a real dark, heavy blanket
over the entire affair. And it is, you know,
for the most part, if you deck someone in a competition,
that's basically the end of your career. You
become essentially unbookable because no one's
going to want to have you with that rep. I've
had people that have close calls and like softer
decks that have been put into kind of a retraining.
regime to get back to that place and it messes
with the belayer too you know well yeah i think
in my last interview with noah he mentioned that
soft decks are sometimes like inevitable yeah
no you nailed it if if a soft deck basically
means someone has come to the floor but very
very softly because it was controlled if someone's
pulling from the second to the third clip well
we're giving rope and if they miss that clip
and fall You have to be able to run that out,
pull that out, have enough, know the rope in
your system to control that, and they may touch
the ground. I had one at Youth Nationals three
years ago, and the person came down, and he said,
whoa, thanks. And then I walked by the corral
of setters, and they were all clapping, which
was very kind. They saw what happened. They saw
what it took for me not to. This was a hard one,
too, because there was basically these huge volumes
at face level. So I had to bring him under that.
So it was kind of a soft deck, but it was controlled.
And, you know, some parents or some spectators
may not understand that a person coming to the
floor. was not only inevitable, but the right
choice. But it's the uncontrolled, either slammed
into the wall or slammed into the floor, that
are real career breakers. You've seen that at
competitions? Yeah. Oh, jeez. I have. One of
the worst things you can be as a belayer is cocky.
I've had belayers who... want to emulate their
favorite TV belayer and do some things stylistically
that are beyond their control. And I've seen
athletes drop to the floor. There was one at
an event a couple of years ago where the belayer
was a little cocky and the person fell and they
couldn't control it. Well, they not only got
third -degree burns on their hands, but the athlete
was injured. And there's nothing... anyone wants
is anyone injured athlete or Blair or volunteer
because it's just it's sad it's it's it's sad
especially when there are mechanisms in place
and training in place to mitigate some of that
hazard You mentioned you belayed at World Champs
in 2023 and also the Copper World Cup, two super
big events. Do you feel extra pressure or stress
when you're belaying at these like World Cup
level events? There is a, you know, you fly a
big chunk around the world, you wake up and you
go to the venue and there's that little voice
saying. can you still do this and then you get
in the flow you get your processes together you
resort to your training and it's like oh yeah
i'm really good at this and other people see
it and they're like wow you're really good at
this we've never met you i don't speak your language
but hey nice belang uh there is pressure there's
pressure for any there's pressure for any event
there's additional pressure for any broadcast
event there's any there's additional pressure
for any championship event and you know ifsc
world cup and world championships are some of
the biggest so i'm trying to get like a different
perspective on uh the world cups and the world
champs uh since you're kind of in the behind
the scenes area a lot so as a belayer are you
allowed in iso while they're warming up and stuff
the belayer first interacts with the with the
with the athletes in the call zone. So that's
where they come out of ISO and they sit in chairs
and they tie in and they continue their preparations.
It's kind of a sacred place. And, you know, the
right belay team will not start talking them
up, talking to the athletes like fans. Hey, you
know, I've seen you and, you know, can I get
your autograph? Yeah. It's a place where the
first thing I'm going to say to an athlete is,
hi, I'm Ty, I'm your belayer. I've already looked
over their system. But I will say, your harness
looks great, your knot looks great. I will show
them my side of their system, show them that
my carabiner is locked, and I'll give additional
information like, when it's your time to climb,
I will walk with you out to the field of play.
I may even say, if it's warranted, I'm going
to start on your left or right or whatever. But
other than that, other than 15 seconds, I'm not
talking to the athletes. Some athletes will engage
a Blair. Most are just very focused and very
quiet. They may talk among themselves. But there
are times when an athlete will engage a Blair.
Like one of my best memories is at Copra where,
you know, Jesse Pills looks over in semifinals
and goes, hey, do you remember belaying me in
Birmingham? I'm like, yes, I do. And she goes,
cool. And that was it. That was our discussion.
Good discussion. Any, like, things you've seen
from, I guess, like, the ISO area or in between,
like, the call zone and getting out into the
stage that stand out to you? Yeah, very famous
athletes showing up to the call zone without
their harnesses. And it's like, you know, you
could tie in now, but you don't have a harness.
You know, very light and fun and, oh, gosh, and
they run away and they come back. But it's also
my job to help them chill out, you know. I'm
in no hurry. We're doing this early. Take your
time. Put your harness on. There was a elite
championship finals in the U .S. where, you know,
a big production thing, you know, the producers
would say, come on. They'd open a curtain. We'd
walk out and the athlete would start climbing.
Well, I came to do my buddy check with my athlete
and I'm like, you know, we're in no hurry, but
you've tied your rope through the handle of the
rope bag. So take your, it's like, oh my gosh,
oh my gosh. It's like, no. It's okay. Take your
time. We are in no hurry. The curtain opens,
the production people are waving, and I'm like,
one second. So we came out a little late, but
I hope we brought the anxiety down a little bit.
This was the same championship where I had been
assured that all of the ropes had been flaked
between rounds, and I got out with Jesse Gruber,
and before he got on the wall, I pulled out a
knot. And the rope, my rope handler ran out and
he's like, a knot, a knot. I'm like, okay. And
I don't know why I did this, but I remember,
and you could see it on the video. I turned to
the judges and I said, I did this. I made the
timeout sign. There's no timeout sign in climbing.
I said, timeout. And I looked at the knot and
I pulled it open and I put it over Jesse and
he just walked through it and the knot was gone.
And the best feeling was the athletes who are
already in kiss and cry. Just started clapping
like that was cool. And then he got up on the
wall and he won the cup. But it's things like
that that perhaps a belayer with less experience
may get a little panicky over or may think about
it as it's as as. The climber is climbing. I
always say you have to be a little sociopathic
and put a firewall between your emotions and
the skills that you bring to this. Yeah, I could
see you being like a calming presence. So I think
it does suit you. I try to be, and a lot of the
people that have gotten the highest in this activity
are, it's like firefighters when they get to
the scene. You don't see them like rushing around.
They walk. They do what they need to do and they
resort to their training. Not to say that we're
anywhere near as important as a firefighter,
but there's that, there's that, there's a slowing
down of the mind and of the body to, to, to do
this right. And part of that is to show the athlete
that you're not freaking out. Yeah. And I've
seen layers freak out. Do athletes ever give
you specific requests for how they want their
belay to be handled? Please excuse this brief
intermission, but if you're interested in deleted
scenes from this episode where we hear about
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to the show. Yeah, they do. There are people
that have either been dropped before or just
do not like the experience of following. They'll
say, can you lower me really slowly? Sure, of
course. That's no problem. There's athletes where
you get to the wall. One of the things we try
to do is vet these climbs to know which is the
most likely side an athlete will make that first
clip. So we will put the rope on their hip with
just a little bit of pressure so they know where
the rope is. Some athletes will say, can you
start on the other side? Sure, no problem. But
the first opportunity was to give them the same
experience I gave everyone else. So they can
call an audible and say, can you start on the
other side? It may look ridiculous as we do this
do -si -do on the field of play. But if that's
what they want, that's fine. At some youth qualifying
events, an athlete will throw the rhythm off
a little bit by throwing the rope over their
shoulder or putting it between their legs. You
know, over the shoulder is not common in competition
climbing. They typically get to a point and they'll
drop it to exactly where we wanted it to be in
the first place. But between the legs, it's just
dangerous. You don't want them falling on one,
two, sometimes three because they will... They
split themselves directly in half and will have
to get... You don't want to fall on the rope
between your legs. We call it flossing. Oh, okay.
I do not lead climb enough to know what the issue
is. Most comp athletes will keep it to one side
or the other. You don't want to fall with that
between their legs. You could end up with just
a rope burn on your legs or it could be more
serious pain and or damage. And I've seen it
happen. And it's not great. Yeah, are there any
athletes who climb in a way that you find difficult
to belay? Yes, some athletes. And the benefit
of doing what I do at the levels that I do it
is you see, you're the closest to seeing some
of the most beautiful climbing on the planet.
Just gorgeous climbing, incredible feats of strength,
body movement that... is unbelievable. And some
people look like they're going to fall every
move. And as a player, you're trying to be cool,
but you're like, Oh, your body is reflectively
like just jumping at, Oh, they're good. Oh no,
they didn't fall. And you know, there's a couple
of climbers where we've discussed among ourselves
that we have nicknames for that. It's just like,
they look like they're going to fall on every
move and it's hilarious. And, you know, backstage,
we just like laugh at each other, like really
had you working out there. So what's worse, someone
who looks like they're always going to fall or
someone where you have no idea when they're about
to fall? I think someone that looks like they're
going to fall on every move because it starts,
you start using resources both mentally and physically
to prepare for that. Unexpected falls are what
we train for. Weird. people that get themselves
into a bit of a weird trap and weird beta those
are the hard ones to to mitigate because if you
could mic me you or a thought balloon it would
be like please make that clip or don't fall here
you know because it's gonna it's gonna wrap you're
gonna spin there's a lot of calculations yeah
if they have to like climb down a bit or go backwards.
There was a gnarly move. It was either qualies
or semis at Bern where it was like third to fourth
clip. The male athletes had to get onto a volume,
turn around, come back out, and then move up
to clip. And it's like there are portions of
that where if you just fell, if you just slipped,
if it just happened, you're going head first
into the wall. headfirst backwards into the wall,
unless I just throw slack at it, but then I'm
bringing you down super low. And those are the
constant calculations that we have to make while
also looking at times like we're bored. I mean,
I don't mean we are bored, but we're trying to
show that things are under control to not only
the athletes, but to the viewing audience. Are
there any moves that routes that are set that
you like kind of see and you're just like, oh,
this is going to make things difficult? Yeah.
Like, you know, a dino mid -climb, we're seeing
more down climbing up over, down and then back
up. So you may remember an event a couple of
years ago. I forget where it was at, but the
entire podium fell into the rope. It was Yanya,
Brooke, and Jesse. Yes, I remember that. They
all kicked into the rope. And, you know, there's
a lot of debate on whether that was an aid to
them or not, for them not to fall off. But it's
moves like that that if you don't really take
a look at it and talk to the setters who set
it, it may catch you by surprise. So mid -route
dinos. Huge volumes at the bottom where people
might fall into and down climbing. I had this
traverse move at championships in 2018 where
it was like third to fourth clips that the climbers
went up, traveled like eight feet across a volume,
then up and then back to the clip. So there's
a huge amount of slack as they traverse to get
to the next move, to get back to the next clip.
And those are hairy. And you have to be prepared
for someone falling on those. So going back to
that one where you said that the three podium
finishers had got their, I think it was their
leg caught in the rope? Yeah, they all caught
their leg on the same rope. How would you have
handled that differently? Not to criticize anyone,
but it may have just been inevitable that that
move ended up in that. But I think it's important
that when... When the officials look at the event
video, which will show the entire route, what
happened with the belayer, what happened with
the athlete, that there's sufficient rope that
no one can call it aid. In Wuzhang, there was
a very similar one where there was a down climb
where there was controversy whether the climber
was aided. It's just... If they look at the video,
there has to be a bend in the rope from the ground
to show that, nope, it was never aid, or same
with short roping, that it was never short. You
know, I had a climber in 2019, Open Championships,
very famous climber, was up about 10 clips on
a very high climb, pulling up the rope, pulling
up the rope, and looked down at me like, what's
the deal? And there was no way for me to say,
you're standing on the rope. But if you look
at the video, if there were to be an appeal,
there was a definite break in my rope. It was
not straight. There was no way I could short
rope that climber. Okay. And then I think last
thing about like IFSC comps that you've done,
you also mentioned to me that you're an international
speed starter. I have no idea what that is. Never
heard of it. I'll just go with national speed
starter, but I've done IFSC events. There's someone
that says go. There's, it's not, you know, there's
sit -walking. The device makes the three tones
and then they go. But there's a human that is
both traffic cop, come onto the field of play,
you're clipped in, you're, you know, I'm the
person that says at some of these bigger events,
at your marks. And then once everyone's ready,
I press the button for the tones to begin. Ready.
Beep. I've been belaying for a million years,
and I'm very comfortable with belaying. I'm a
pretty good judge because I've worked at being
a pretty good judge. There's nothing more harrowing
than an IFSC broadcast speed finals because you
have to do it right. Well, what could go wrong?
The worst thing that could go wrong is you can
lapse after doing this for hours, and then as
both climbers are at the wall testing their pads,
you start the sequence. And neither are clipped
in, which is why I've added the words, the quiet
words, A clipped, B clipped, as part of the routine
to know that I've checked that they're clipped.
And then I start the process. That could be a
disaster because... I think the only way people
have been seriously, seriously hurt with auto
belay is when they were not clipped into the
auto belay. Yeah. With the international speed
timing equipment, if someone false start and
false starts and they cannot run that race and
the other person is still running it for time,
you know, qualities, if you don't lock out the
other lane, it will give a false start tone.
And then the climber's like, okay, now you're
getting in my headspace because You didn't do
it right. You just have to do it right every
time. One of the hardest parts of it is when
you say, at your marks, and they go to the wall,
is determining when to start ready. Some climbers
will go to the wall and visibly show they're
ready. And some will kind of fidget and move
and fidget and move. And I had one guy who would
always touch his hair first. You have to learn
those things very quickly and qualities to know
how to start them appropriately. Huh. Okay. It's
harrowing. Yeah, I never thought about that.
Yeah, because some people have like their whole,
their routines, I guess. Very common in speed
climbing. They have their routines at assembly,
which is the little line where they're clipped
in and they do their chalking and their stretching
and their breathing. And they have their routines
at the wall. And I think a lot of that experience,
you know, for the athletes that I coach. Almost
every practice is like a comp simulation so that
they can go to any venue, any wall and just do
the same thing. Well, so have you ever messed
it up? I have. I did make a mistake once. Oh,
what happened there? Qualifying back in 2021
World Cup, a climber fall started. And then so
the next climber got to run for time. And it
was, again, referencing Jakob, when everyone
who went to the Olympics had to do speed. I didn't
lock out the other lane. The example I just gave
you. And I said, ready. And it gave false start
tones. And he looked at me like. And that he's
right. I blew it. So that was my mistake. Wait,
so I guess I don't really understand what it
means to lock it out. On the start module, you
have to take that speed pad where there's no
human offline. Else it will. It will give a false
start tone. I see. So you have to run it as a
one lane run as opposed to a race with two. So
it was Jakob who was doing the speed? Yeah. He
looked at me like, come on, Rook. Yeah. I've
really been doing this for a long time. I'm so
sorry. But you have to rebound. So did he get
to... I guess go again? Yeah, I just had to reset
it and then, you know, he did not forfeit anything.
But for me, I don't want to get in anyone's head
because of a mistake. You know, there are times
when the worst is when the equipment just malfunctions
and you have to bring both athletes back to assembly
and then resolve quickly what that problem was.
I've had, you know, the wireless modules misfire.
I've had the wired modules lose power, you know.
You have to be very quick to make a decision
and quick to improv. You know, I'm a speed starter,
but I'm also a national speed judge, the person
that inspects the wall, makes the adjustments
to the holds, and really builds the whole program
from the stager to the clippers to the starter.
It's a lot of work. It's hard, and a lot of people
have no idea what happens behind the scene at
speed, and it's fascinating. Yeah, I'm now realizing
I kind of have no idea what happens behind the
scenes. Just enjoy the races. Yeah, yeah. If
you don't have to think about it, it was well
run. Yeah, true. I mean, what do you have to
do as a judge? Well, there's the initial wall
inspection. There's getting the team to function
appropriately. Again, the stagers, the people
that are lining everyone up and finding athletes
to line up. The clippers, how they clip and how
they function, but also to make determinations.
So if something happens, you have to make a quick
ruling. If both athletes fall, you have to bring
them back and say, we're going to rerun this
race. The most heartbreaking one is someone that
false starts in a knockout round or in a finals
round. They false start in a finals round. Hey,
that was it. Show's over. No, that sucks. It
sucks. Which is why I'm hoping a probationary
false start makes its way back into the rules
because that's a really satisfying, really unsatisfying
finals when the last race is someone false starts
and that's it. All right. So in terms of non
-IFSC comps, you've been in the scene for a long
time. Are there any comp experiences that have
stood out to you outside of IFSC? World Games
in Birmingham in 2022 was a non -IFSC event,
but it was run by the IFSC. Like the Olympics,
it's... It's managed by the IFSC. World Games
in Birmingham was amazing because it was a multi
-sport event where climbing was one of the events
in this huge, huge multi -event, multi -venue
sports extravaganza. And I think we were closest
to like... beach volleyball or something like
that. But it was staffed by USA Climbing officials,
but there was only four of us. So there's four
of us from USA Climbing plus local volunteers
managed by the IFSC. So for that event, myself
and my colleagues got to do everything. There's
four of us. For speed, we had John was the speed
judge. Steve and Carolyn were Clippers and I
was the starter. For Boulders, for Boulder Qualies,
we were all the primary judges with a volunteer
as secondary judges for Boulder Qualies and finals,
in fact. And for lead, John and Carolyn were
the judges and Steve and I were the belayers.
So it was great. It was the best thing. And it
was outside in Birmingham, both during the day
and at night. It was amazing. Big crowds, high
stakes, lots of dignitaries there in the climbing
world. It was amazing. And it was hard. And it
was sweaty. Yeah, it sounds chaotic. It was very
well run. I guess fewer people to coordinate
makes it a little bit easier. Fewer people to
coordinate and just, you know, the people that
ran it for the IFSC, the judges, and shout out
to Hazel, the multi. sport uh event manager it
was it was it was wholly satisfying just a lot
of work yeah no breaks means no time to stop
and worry about things 2020 three uh national
team trials was like that we had a small ballet
crew who were all also very good judges and all
were speed and it was it was olympic format so
there was basically two rounds for everything
and we it was non -stop work it was great was
that in austin that was in austin oh i think
i was there for that i was just uh volunteering
in like iso or something like that also you probably
we probably past each other at some point oh
yeah no i definitely saw you i like sort of knew
who you were for some reason i mean i guess you're
around so you're very noticeable so it was uh
yeah yeah we're at a moment now where there's
more visibility on blairs and belaying even though
we're trying to be as invisible as possible well
why is there more eyes on the blairs nowadays
because it has gone In the U .S. and in some
ways IFSC, it is very much more professionalized.
It's not, you know, the history of belaying for
USA Climbing was it was like the four dads in
the parking lot that said, well, we'll take care
of everything. And, you know, now there's a program
behind it. There's endorsement levels and evaluations.
And the one big lesson, and here's your hot take,
the one big lesson is no longer. Can women only
belay women or not belay? But they can belay
any round, any athlete. And that's because once
you learn the technique, the myth of weight differential
is completely gone. And my take is some of the
best belayers in the world are women in some
aspects because they have to be better in order
to break through in some of these circles. They
have to be better than a lot of the men. A lot
of women just get it. And, you know, going back
to 2019, Katie Kayser was a real trailblazer
for women belaying any round, any athlete. Met
this young woman, Roe Del Rio, that, you know,
this was a youth regionals, and she did all the
A -men, all the junior men. And we just watched
because her technique was so sound, she never
got thrown into the air. all soft catches. And
now we have people like C -Lad and Megan who
are perhaps the best belayers on the planet.
This woman coming up in this area, Sawyer, maybe
the best belayer I've ever met. Well, I didn't
even know that that was an issue or that there
was an idea that women could only belay women.
Well, well, well, little lady, you can't belay
the men. They're too heavy. First, there are
women that are absolute, just like, you know,
physical specimens that may... way more than
some of the men. It does not matter. It's not
a weight thing. You'll still see some international
competitions where only the women are belaying
women and only the men are belaying men. It doesn't
matter. In fact, we've been doing a lot of rounds
where the women are deliberately put in the men's
round and the men belay the women just to say,
hey, this isn't a mystery. We've disproven this.
Oh, and Eliza. Eliza's one of the greatest players.
She may be retired at this point, but she's absolutely
amazing. So was it just like weight difference
concern? Well, that was the line. Like you would
get thrown in the air? Get thrown in the air
and you can't control it because, you know, we've
disproven it. Weight difference is the reason
why some people use the ohm. you know, descenders
and things like that. But for competition, where
there's a high level of skill, you know, I'm
tall, but I'm not heavy. You know, there are
lots of men and women athletes that probably
weigh more than me. It's not a weight thing.
It's purely a technique thing. It's a skills
thing. And if you have the skills, you pay the
bills. Okay. Yeah, good phrase. So I guess if
there is a big weight difference, what do you
need to do or what do you need to take into consideration?
You know, there's nothing you do differently.
We use ATCs and we use what we call dynamic rope
control, which it used to be called slip belay.
Well, slip belay doesn't really sound like something
that's very safe. So we came up with the words
dynamic rope control, DRC. As someone is starting
to fall, you start their descent. So they fall
into a soft, even cloud of joy. If it's low,
you may have to lock off and you may get jerked
or pulled a little bit. But if you know how to
handle it, you know how to handle it, man or
woman. It's a skills and experience deal. And
before I forget, you know, I've talked a lot
about lead and speed, but pair climbing is where
it's at, man. Right, yeah. These are athletes
and a lot of people have not gotten to the point
where they appreciate the strength, determination
and skill of these athletes. It's just, it can
be super hard to belay. You have to be, you know,
these are people that your technique comes into
play because some of these athletes may not be
able to absorb the impact of a wall or of course
a deck, whether it's because of their... you
know, missing a limb, low powered, or, you know,
if you don't have both of your legs, your weight,
your center of balance is in a really different
place for climbing. And so the belaying, we like
to, you know, belayer Steve likes to call. paraclimbing
belaying like fly fishing you're so attuned to
the touch of the rope and what's happening on
the wall and with the dual belay system the the
two belay system it's super super important to
get both sides right you're going to see more
of the dual belay system as they put the younger
climbers the top rope climbers on big overhang
walls And some of that is to prepare the younger
climbers who are still top roping to climb these
big overhang walls. But with the dual belay,
it prevents, where it's very overhung, it prevents
the climber from, if ever just top rope, from
falling to the ground because of the slack involved.
But it also prevents the swing out, swing back
to the wall. There was a stigma with it, and
some pair of climbers were like, We'd rather
just have a single top rope. But I think we're
going to see it more and more, especially with
the younger top rope only climbers. And there
are some instances where this has already happened.
So it's super great. Why do some para climbers
want only a single top rope? They want the same
experience as any climber is going to have. Not
to be, oh, we have to have this helping hand
with the dual belay. Well, it's more just...
to protect all the athletes because a lot of
these big overhung walls aren't intended for
top rope only. In fact, a lot of gyms will not
let you top rope only some of these overhang
walls because a low fall could put you into the
floor. I didn't go into any paragliding questions
because I had already learned a lot from my last
episode with Noah, which I think people should
check out if they want to hear more about that.
I'd like to consider Noah as a prodigy of sorts,
but he's also someone I have so much respect
for as a caring human and as just a highly, highly
skilled professional. Yeah, I know that Noah
mentioned about belaying like, oh, like the leg
amputees. They climb so fast because they're
campusing up the wall and trying to get up there
as fast as they can. They've continued to make
those routes harder. So it's not as fast as it
once was when it was basically just straight
up into the air. But it was like back when we
manually belayed speed climbing, you know? Oh,
geez. Yeah. Eight second, six second speed climbing
was extremely hard to do. Wait, how long ago
was that? 2018, I think, was the last elite event
where we had two person belay. And if you saw
the real, there's a real rock with speed belaying
where at that event, it was John Browser going,
you know, six something seconds. One of the players
missed a hand because you're playing this side
of the Grigri like this, where you have someone
else is pulling the rope through the other side
of the Grigri. So it's four hands on the rope.
But he missed a hand and fell over. So now I'm
the starter standing and I see this huge loop
of rope. Well, if he gets to the top, he's going
to crash because there's too much rope. So instinctively,
I dropped the speed starting module, grabbed
the rope. He finished it. I got pulled over the
PA system. I had burns in my hand. And I know
some people who have lost, had shoulder injuries
from grabbing a rope from a manual belay. So
auto belays, that was the end of manual speed
belaying. Oh my gosh. I need to see a video of
that. Wow. I had no idea that they ever did speed
climbing with manual belays. There was a time
when auto belays were deemed to be too slow.
But now that the times are... little over four
seconds there's no way to do it manually was
there ever a concern when doing it manually that
you would be like aiding them by like going too
fast especially if they like slip and fall yep
yes yes yes yes uh aiding was a concern uh and
if someone slipped then now you've caught them
so you know then the adjudication is did they
wait the rope was it a fall Auto belay really,
really simplifies speed climbing. Yeah, geez.
I mean, judges definitely had a big job for speed
climbing back in the day then. Yeah, then they'd
ask the belayer, hey, did they weight the rope?
And it's like, I don't know. I was just trying
to kick him off the floor. Geez, okay, interesting.
But okay, we got to this from para climbing somehow.
Are there any other things with para climbing
belaying that surprised you when you, I guess,
first started? When I first started, my first
big paraclimbing event was 2019 Paraclimbing
Championship. And one of the things that shocked
me was it was considered to be a not elite event.
So you didn't have a lot of the best people come
out to support paraclimbing, which sucked because
it... is an elite event. It is harder in some
aspects to belay. So when we showed up for that,
that was the first time they said, oh, you guys
are here. This must be real, which was both flattering,
but also disappointing that it hadn't received
the amount of support it has. And also, and one
of the things that paraclimbers hate are people
that are like... Oh, they're so strong. No, they're
the same dirt bags that we belay out at the crag
and in the lead series. They don't want that.
And a lot of paraclimbers don't want your help
untying or unclipping. Just leave me alone and
it's fine. That's cool. But yeah, I think we
serve paraclimbing to the same standards and
bring the same skilled personnel that we do for
any event. And that was our goal. And anything
specifically about belaying them that stood out?
I guess you mentioned their center of gravity
could be different. Center of gravity and just
managing a dual belay system can be difficult.
If you do it wrong, then now they're caught up
in the rope and it's a whole different issue.
They could fall and catch a prosthesis in the
rope, which you don't want to happen. And one
thing that I learned this year that I'd never
really considered is that When I gave the example
of the woman back in the day standing on the
rope, well, she finally felt that she was standing
on the rope. If you have a prosthetic leg, you
don't feel that you're standing on the rope.
You may not feel it as much. There may be less
of a tactile, less tactile feedback that you're
standing on a rope. And it happens. It's hard
and you have to be thoughtful and experience
counts. It can't just be some... person off.
I've had judges tell me, well, it's just top
rope belaying. No, it's not just top rope belaying.
It's super hard top rope belaying with a partner
on the other side. Yeah. Yeah. It is not easy
out there to, uh, to play para climbing and put
on that event. Um, okay. So you have been in
the competition scene for quite a while, um,
climbing for quite a while. How has the scene
changed now that climbing is an Olympic sport
and like para climbing? It's a Paralympic sport.
Amazing that it's a Paralympic sport. I know
there's some disappointment at the number of
categories that got pushed through. But, you
know, as with, you know, the other disciplines
of climbing, it can evolve. And so maybe more
will be included in the future. But the biggest
thing that you're starting to see is how hungry
slash thirsty people are to get part of that.
Olympic action. And I don't mean just the athletes.
Of course, the athletes are trying their hardest
to make it as far as they can with a mix of very
few people being wildly successful and a lot
of people being wildly disappointed. But even
behind the scenes with judging and belaying,
I've had numerous people say, so how do I belay
the Olympics? And my standard response is, no
one you know will belay the Olympics because
it's probably going to come down to four people.
that may be invited for the Olympics, I'll be
137 in 2028. So I'm probably not belaying the
Olympics. I may not know who's going to belay
the Olympics. It's one of those things where
just, if that's your goal, you may want to reevaluate
your goals. But if that's your goal, stay in
the circuit, get as much work in as you can,
and hopefully... Whoever's making that decision
at the time, you may be among the people picking
that. But my answer is, I don't know who's making
that decision. I don't know who's going to do
that. It could be anybody, probably not anybody
we know. That's how few people that will do that.
With any luck, I will be invited to do para -climbing,
which I think would be my passion. But again,
it's not something I'm either working toward.
or hoping for. Whatever happens, happens. But
it's made climbing to be very, very serious,
and you see it trickling down from the elite
athletes all the way down to the youth. Back
in the day, in order to go to a regional championships,
the qualification was you had to compete in two
events, and that was your qualifier. Now you
have to make a certain tier. With that, the stakes
have become higher, the competition has become
harder, and there's a little bit more of a parent
influence and involvement. And these are the
parents that we've criticized in climbing from,
like, other sports. And not to disparage other
sports, but there are hockey parents. I was a
soccer coach. The parents, I had to tell the
parents before every competition, before every...
before every match, please don't coach from the
sidelines. They're trying to listen to me and
Coach Rob. But the parents, there's some parents
that feel they know better. And I know it's stressful
for them. And I know in some sports, the parents
feel there are scholarships involved. And in
some sports, parents feel that they can ascend
to the Olympics. Again, significantly zero people
we know will get this opportunity. It's that
limited a pool. You can see it sometimes with
some of the parents. I'm not criticizing every
parent, but some parents get very intense. Some
athletes, even young, young athletes get very,
very intense to a point where there's a question
of how healthy this is. You know, D athletes,
which are the U13 or U14, you know, D athletes
used to go to national championships. And it
was a big outcry when they took D out of nationals
and put it into the... climbing festival or whatever
that's called now but the the the the thinking
from the committee was it's a lot of pressure
to put on children that you have to go to a national
championship and then you know make it the next
year and make it the next year and so many young
athletes who are very successful in their under
15 under 17 you know they they grow their body
changes their their interests change they may
not find that same level of success. And it's
hard on families. It's hard on the athletes.
It's hard on the parents. You know, parents who
are saying, you know, we won, we did this. It's
like, no, your kid did that. You know, you can
support your kid without it being part of you.
And I'm not being harsh on all parents. It's
the few that we've all seen that really make
it a... Overly intense, overly precious, and
overly stressful activity at times. While your
daughter was growing up, what was the youth scene
like then? It was back when you just had to do
two events to get into regionals. But she became
super serious and pretty good. I'm not going
to say she was the best, but she was pretty good.
She received... a bronze medal at Canadian nationals
and speed one year. And she specialized in speed
for a while, but it's a, it's a hard discipline
for those who specialize. You're putting a lot
of eggs into a 10 second basket. And there's
athletes that have traveled all the way around
the world and fall started. And that's it. Or,
you know, my daughter has missed the timer, you
know, and that's it, you know, no time. Um, and
there were people who, who, who burned out, but
it's, you know, the same with the other disciplines
too. It's, it can be taxing. And I like to hope
that more athletes are able to have fun and still
let climbing be fun. But there are a lot of athletes
who are just really good. And yes, you know,
in the elite series. For a lot of athletes, this
is their job. This is their livelihood. This
is what they do professionally. And that's great.
I'd love to see it. But it's hard to see young
athletes crying because they didn't make the
cut. Sobbing in the corner because they didn't
make the cut to go to semis or finals and have
a parent hover over them and say, well, you should
have climbed better. So uncool. So unsupportive.
My wife is a developmental psychologist, you
know, PhD. My background is social psychology.
You know, we talk about what these impacts could
be. And some of them are just not healthy. My
child, you know, you had to be 16 at the time
to go into the elite circuit, 16 during the competition
year. So she was 15 when she left youth. And
I asked her, she said, it's the parents. they're
driving not hopefully not me because i continue
to work with her transport her and support her
but she's like just the stuff she's witnessed
is just too hard to to have to witness continually
and is it like also cutthroat even with i guess
like other families like it can be family beef
yeah all of that all of that has happened but
she found the elite circuit to be more chill
because There's a time when she was competing
in the same comps as her coach, and they could
just hang out and talk, and it was chill. And
the collegiate scene, super chill. And the para
-climbing scene, super chill and loving and supportive.
But sometimes the youth and elite, bolder and
youth and elite, lead. comps can be can be pretty
intense and i've worked the most intense comps
you know ntt is very intense elite and youth
championships are very intense and that's that's
the nature of competition but you know putting
the olympics at the top of that pyramid has ratcheted
up the intensity for everybody and i know some
pro climbers who didn't make it it's altered
their career trajectories they've gone on to
other things a lot of them have gone on to just
climb outdoors or or do other things which is
fine and that's one of the thing i one of the
things i've grown to appreciate the blank community
is some people will go on to other things i'm
done being a top blair i'm gonna go do something
else good to get that kind of history and background
and to learn that youth is not where you ever
want to find yourself well you know i'm sure
someone in your vast audience will say he was
too critical but i'm not trying to be critical
it's just one of our jobs as a parent as an adult
as an official is to look after the athletes
you know whether that's belaying well judging
uh judging well or you know just providing water
support is important and care is important one
of the things I love most about some of the top
players is how much they care about athletes
athletes who may show up to a chair late it's
like let's calm this down we got you we'll get
you out to the field of play it's not time to
freak out yeah good words to end on there just
a few more discord questions questions from the
audience oh So first one, do belayers get a rundown
of the route from the setters or are they figuring
it out with the athletes? Especially when it
comes to the crazier moves they set, like dynamic
stuff and down climbing. In better organized
competitions, the head belayer will have a conversation
with the head setter to know what some of their
concerns might be. And then that information
is transferred to the belayers for some qualifying
youth events. You just show up and you belay
it. There are some belayers who are very, very
good at what we call site belaying. That's the
person that can move around and work any route
and be the person to take over for breaks or
just substitute in if someone is belaying under
standard. And sometimes you have to figure it
out. Most of the time, we will have some recon
on the routes. Sounds good. Have you ever seen
an athlete or coach object to a belayer? Yep.
What happens there? If a belayer, for whatever
reason, has a reputation of someone they don't
want to belay with, there's been discussions
and call zones. It's like, can someone else belay
me? In the youth circuit, it's probably more
prevalent because you have more volunteers who
people aren't familiar with. And so it's like,
is that person okay? Or if parents or spectators
see someone practicing poor technique, there
may be a discussion to replace a belayer. We've
tried to mitigate against that through training
and endorsement systems. Makes sense. And last
one, is there a process for removing a belayer
mid -comp if there are issues? You have to have
a really strong head belayer and assistant head
belayer who, in conjunction with the JP or event
organizer or head sitter, determines that person
isn't belaying to standard. And it has to be
a conversation. Can you come with me, please?
We're going to take you out of this rotation
and put someone else in. I mean, we saw that
at Wu Jang at the very highest level that the
belayers were replaced. I was at a national championship
a few years ago where I was head belayer and
I asked my head belayer to remove a belayer because
he was performing under standards. One of the
things we have in every belay plan is if you
are removed, let's talk about it after the round
and not on the field of play. Well, this belayer
wanted to adjudicate it right there on the field
of play and it got very nasty. A process at the
higher level comps, most higher level comps,
not every higher level comps, but there are many
comps where there is no process. The person just
has to be told to give up the rope. But it's
something a JP or a head setter or the head Blair
are certainly empowered to do. I didn't know
that happened in Wuchong. You'll notice at the
men's round after the down climb situation, there
were new belayers put out onto the field. Hurts
my heart to see. Do you know what went on there?
I think the video showed that the climber was
aided in the down climb. Without the aid, they
would have fallen. So it was basically, or not
basically, technically, it was a rope technical.
So then the climber had to climb again. So that
really, really threw the comp off. Well, at least
it wasn't like a safety issue. It was not a safety
issue, but there had been a safety issue earlier
in that comp with maybe big falls, but I do not
know that for sure. Okay. Good to know. What
I heard from people who were there. Okay. Well,
that's all the questions I had. Thanks for joining.
Any like last minute words of wisdom you want
to get out there? Two words, ice climbing. That's
where I want to go now. I've been watching that
circuit and it's everything you love. And everything
you love about Lee climbing, plus you have the
cold and you have ice falling and you have the
possibility of axes falling on you. And a lot
of us really want to get into that circuit. And
fortunately, I've been contacted by the UIAA
to have some discussions about belay standards
in ice climbing. And I've been watching a lot
of ice climbing lately and I'm aching to do it.
Aching to do it. It looks super fun, super fulfilling.
In fact, Matt Groom was like, you really have
to get into the ice circuit, mate. And I'm like,
really? Then I looked at it. I'm like, sure.
So that's next for you. That's next for me. I'll
be in a helmet and a puffer. Freezing, freezing,
but loving it. Oh, yeah. So I guess you need
the helmet for if the ice pick falls on you.
What about your body that's still exposed? You
have to be pretty keen on where you're standing.
Has anyone actually dropped their ice pick during
an ice climbing? Oh, it happens all the time.
Oh, jeez. Yeah, all the time. Oh, that's terrifying.
The setters have to have techniques in place
to either retrieve a pick left up or, you know,
yeah, they fall. Watch a couple championships.
Those things come wailing down. Terrifying, but
simultaneously terrifying and thrilling. I know
someone who does this. ice belaying. And I know,
I know athletes who compete and it's, yeah. So
have you done it yet? Ever? Like any kind of
ice climbing? I've only belayed like people simulating
ice climbing, unlike logs, but never, never a
competition and never on with real ice. And I
hate cold. So there you go. Yeah. So then I'm
not sure why you would do that. It may be one
of the highest. tiers of belaying that could
stand some unified processes and maybe not disparagingly,
but professionalization. And I'd like to give
it a go before I portend to be any sort of expert
at it. I'd like to try it. Well, that'll be exciting.
And I can't wait to see how that turns out. Let
me know how it goes. I'd be really interested
to hear about that. Yeah, I don't know. Okay,
awesome. Well, good luck with that endeavor.
Anything else you want to shout out or let people
know where they can find you? I love my team.
I love the people I work with. They are some
of the most caring people in the world, all the
way across the world to the layers and copper
and my homie Helmut at the Swiss Alpine Club.
People that love to belay are amazing humans
and people that get good at it. I mean, like
this woman Sawyer, she's been counting the number
of climbs. She's already in one season a no -notes
belayer. Nothing to say to her. But, you know,
I'm around. You'll see me at comps. Come say
hi. People I've met have told me how scary I
am and intense I am. No, I'm just a goof that
happens to. try to focus on on my job and i'm
on you know instagram or whatever at underscore
ty hardaway underscore because there's another
ty hardaway had it who only has like three posts
and i've asked him to to i told him i'd buy it
from him but i'll go with the underscores well
i came into instagram late because i discovered
that some people that i really want to communicate
with that's the only place i can communicate
with them well i will link that below so no one
goes to the wrong one and if anyone has questions
Happy to try to answer them. I know a lot. I'm
not perfect. I may not have all the answers,
but I know a lot of people. Awesome. Well, thank
you again. It was amazing to talk to you. Amazing
to talk to you. Thank you so much for making
it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to
like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise,
you are a super big climber. If you're listening
on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you
rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion
on the free competition climbing discord linked
in the description. Thanks again for listening.