the non -climber audience is becoming the target
for these live streams so bouldering in itself
has a problem yeah like it's 50 meters away like
you are working and people are having fun and
there's some dude dying there in his sleep after
a live i know what was wrong and what what was
that yeah what Yeah, what was not good? I know
it right away. Welcome to another episode of
the That's Not Real Climbing Podcast. I'm your
host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce my
guest for today, Antonin Pharel. Antonin is
the graphics operator for the IFSC. I know there's
been a lot of complaints about World Cup broadcasts
lately, so in this episode, I gathered all your
hardest -hitting questions over on the internet's
biggest hater platform, Reddit. In this episode,
we'll learn about why the IFSC chooses to use
local production teams instead of their own production
team and the difficulties that come with that,
why graphics don't show up sometimes, and we'll
hear about his thoughts on why the bouldering
format is inherently broken for watching on TV.
I hope you enjoy this episode with Antonin. Real
quick, I'm excited to announce my new sponsor
helping make this podcast episode possible, Mad
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They just came out December 6th, but you might
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entire Medrock order. Info will be in the description.
Back to the show. How are you doing today? You
have like a bit of a break between competitions.
Actually, not really. I've come back yesterday
from Bali for the World Cup in Bali. Before that,
I was in Ke Xiao and Wu Jiang for the two World
Cups. So that was quite a long tour in Asia,
like three weeks. And I have two days home. So
I have arrived yesterday. And then I'm taking
the car again because this weekend there are
the French Elite Championships that we are covering
also. So I'm going there this weekend. And Monday,
we take off to Brazil for the World Cup in Curitiba.
So that's a good start of the season, like five
weeks, five competitions. In five weekends. And
all your flight and travel is covered for, right?
Yeah, yeah, yes. So I have immobilized day, travel
days, and yeah, everything is covered. So I don't
have to pay for anything myself. And yeah, I'm
paid to work, obviously. Yeah, it's a lot of
not being at home. Do you manage to get much
climbing in during the competition season? It
depends on the events. It depends on the places.
Obviously, it's difficult to keep, to maintain
a regular rhythm of climbing. During the off
-season in winter, usually I try to go climb
mostly indoor because I don't have much time.
Still, but like two or three times a week. But
during the season, I've tried to fit in some
little climbing time. Yeah, whenever we can.
Sometimes it's only on the warm -up and the isolation
zone. Some warm -up areas are very good for that.
Some others are a bit less. But yeah, with people
there, we try to set up some boulders. I mean,
like what we did in Quechua with you. Yeah, did
you feel like that's considered a pretty good
isolation zone, right? Yeah, yeah, that's a pretty
good one, yes. It's not on, like, I think athletes
going to Wuzhang the week after, they were complaining
a bit because in Wuzhang, for example, it's a
very, very long wall. It's just a big traverse,
but quite short. I don't think it's more than
two meters high, for example, and it's... not
not overhanging so it's always the same kind
of feature slabby vertical but slightly overhanging
maybe but even though the holds are quite good
you can't really do a lot of things on this kind
of warm -up wall so yeah i know that the athletes
are complaining a little bit about this wall
and yeah i've Actually, we didn't climb there.
What's the best ISO warm -up zone that you've
been to or seen? Crachow is quite nice, actually.
Yeah, it's one of the best, I would say. The
one in Bali last week was quite nice also. So
they had put it in a tent. We didn't climb there,
but from what I saw, it was... Pretty nice. Maybe
a bit smaller than Keishao, but it was in a tent
with air conditioning. That's helpful. Yeah,
that's very helpful. All the tents have air conditioning.
Yeah, but yes, this one was good. Let me think.
The one in Chamonix is quite nice also. Also,
we don't climb much there because it's directly
in the Ensar. So it's the gymnasium, not the
gymnasium, the climbing gym for the local club
there in Chamonix. So it's quite nice. And it's
where there are some Romain Desgrange. I don't
know if you know him. It's like a French athlete.
And he's now a coach. And it's basically where
he trained, etc. quite a good good space with
a lot of bouldering and so yeah quite quite good
uh warm -up area um yeah i mean it varies from
place to place but yeah and of course in salt
lake now there is a tc which is quite a good
warm -up zone also. Okay, so getting into a bit
of what you do for the IFSC. I guess most people
probably don't know too much about you or who
you might be. So what do you do for the IFSC
and how did you get involved? So yeah, probably
not a lot of people know me. I'm the graphic
operator in the IFSC broadcast team. I'm the
one displaying the names, the results, all kinds
of graphics that goes on top of the live stream.
So during the live, I'm displaying that and etc.
And I'm also in some events in charge of setting
up cameras, mostly on the walls. I'm the one
putting up the cameras on the walls. It's my
task, but I can help. other team members to do
some other things. So yes, I have varied tasks,
but these are my main two, like graphic operator
and PTZ camera. So PTZ, it's the cameras on the
wall. It's pan, tilt, and zoom. It's remote cameras
that are controlled directly in the control room.
And yes, there is a dedicated operator that manages
them. All right. What cameras on the walls, like
actually on the walls? Or do you mean just like
filming like close -ups of the wall? They are
fixed on the wall. So yeah, you can see them
on the stream. Sometimes, yeah, in most of the
time in bouldering, you can see some. masts how
do you say like sticks sticking out of the top
of the walls and there are some cameras hanging
there so on bouldering we put at least three
maybe four cameras so we get shots of the tops
and they are mostly used to get some close shots
not from the back from behind Because most of
the shots in climbing are from behind, right?
So the big advantage of these cameras directly
fixed on the wall is that it allows us to get
some closer shots and some shots of the faces
and from above. So the counterpart is that usually
the walls are shaking a little bit, so the cameras
are quite shaky. Sometimes. It depends on the
walls. Again, from structure to structure, it
can vary a lot. But yeah, we installed them on
bouldering and in lead also. So in lead, we usually
display three. So one at the top, we get the
top shot for both routes. And two on the sides,
on the head wall. Just to get a broader overview
of the rest of the production team at the IFSC,
because you just mainly do the graphics, how
does the rest of the production team work? It
depends a bit. The season, so there are how many
events? There are 12 events on a season, something
like that. It starts from April to October. We
have a broadcast team linked to the IFSC. So
we are directly hired by the IFSC. And sometimes
we do the full production. Sometimes we are only
on support because it's local productions handling
the whole live stream. And yes. So for example,
In China, it's local production. So it was a
Chinese crew doing, installing all the cameras,
doing the full live stream, etc. Me, I'm still
there to display the graphics. And we are, in
cases like that, we are there on support. It
means that we make sure that the... standards
required for the IFSC live streams are followed.
So the live streams are well sent to the TVs
that have the rights for them. And we make sure
that the rundown, the running order is well followed.
So it's, for example... Yeah, we have a rundown.
So at that time, the live stream starts. At this
time, 30 seconds later, we need to display the
start list, etc. So we have a full schedule to
follow and we make sure that this schedule is
well followed by the local crews. And yes, we
try to give some advices on how to film climbing
and things like that. So that's... For the cases
where we don't do the full production, we are
there on support. And then there are some events
where we are hired to do the full production.
So like in Bali last week, for example. So in
that case, our team is a bit broader. So we are
six plus some cameramen. So we have dedicated
roles. So me, I'm graphic operator. There is
one that is a director. There is a sound engineer,
vision engineer, etc. But yeah, it's still a
reduced team compared to what you can see in...
in yeah in other local tv productions like it's
we arrive with a lot of boxes we set up the thing
but if you look at local productions they arrive
with a big truck with way more people and things
like that so and so why in like kachow for example
was it decided to only do support instead of
have a full production yourself it's decided
by the IFSC and the organizer so how it works
is like organizers proposes to host a world cup
and I don't know exactly how that works because
I'm not involved in this in this deals etc but
from what I understand is like the organizers
is proposing to to have a local production crew
who is going to realize the live stream and then
they will get some TV rights for national TVs,
for example, or for other production. I don't
know. So that is the deal. So the organizers
propose these services and they get the TV rights
for their local channels. That's the case in
quite a lot of events now. Before 2020, we were
still doing most of the productions. But now
in Slovenia, it's local TV. In the World Championships,
it's local TV now in Seoul. It will be KBS doing
that. So in China now, after COVID, it's local
crews. But even before, the crew from the Olympics,
for example, it was a Chinese production. And
there were training in Chongqing 2019, I think,
already. So this time already, it was not us
doing the production. But before that, until
Wuzhong 2019, we were doing the production in
China also. So you're working towards doing fewer
productions? Yes, we do fewer productions. I
mean, this year, actually, we do quite a lot
compared to last year. Because there are new
venues and there are some organizers don't find
local producers. So instead, we do the production.
So in Brazil, for example, it will be us. Usually
when it's a new event, we do the first production.
So like in Prague, it was 2023. The first edition
in Prague, it was us doing the production. And
last year, 2024, it was a local TV crew doing
it. And it will be again a local team also doing
the production this year also. so like the goal
is to eventually have a local production do it
because i guess for consistency's sake it seems
like people expect that it would usually be an
ifsc production the big plus for to have a local
production is like they get the tv rights right
so it means that um the live streams is broadcast
on the national tv so why do organizers want
to organize the World Cup. It's so they have
local spectators, local audience, and the fact
that they also want to have a local producer
is so they can have the TV rights for their audience.
So it's just to present climbing in their country,
basically. So that's understandable. After, to
have consistency from one... event to the next
for sure it's a bit more complicated if we change
crews from one event to the next but yeah that's
why we are there on support it's to try to give
guidelines and to to make sure first that the
live streams follow the required standards and
we are there to try to give advice also how to
film climbing Sometimes they are followed, sometimes
they do a bit how they want. But yeah, usually
it goes quite well after one live or two. If
you look at the first live streams, there is
an improvement from, let's say, semifinals to
finals. In finals, usually it's quite better
quality. While the first live streams, it's still
a moment of trying and errors and trials. And
from one year to the next, the productions improve
also. So if they do every year the same production,
they improve from one year to the next. Yeah,
obviously there's a lot of like... online discourse
about um how the production runs um what what
the broadcast looks like um i gathered some questions
from reddit since i think that's where they have
the most strongest opinions about uh about the
broadcast and so like what guidelines specifically
are given to ensure consistent product and also
the big one being uh like the split screen issue
that we saw in kajal yeah so um Of course, we
are here on support. So our first task is to
make sure that the live stream is well delivered
to the people paying for it. So deals with the
FSC and usually the local crews are handling
themselves the signal going for their local TV.
That's a main task. Make sure that there is a
live stream happening. Then the second... part
of our job is to make sure that to ensure a quality
and of the live stream and consistency from one
event to the next and here we give some advice
on how to film the sport um but we are sometimes
often uh facing some issues uh like the The crews
we are talking to, sometimes they are well known
in the sport. They are filming some sport at
the Olympics, etc. And as we arrive, we are only
three people filming climbing. So us giving advice
to these big crews of 40 plus people. Yeah, it's
sometimes we are not heard that well. Sometimes
we have also some communication issues. So like
in Keishao, for example, we had an interpreter.
Yes. Who was not speaking that well English either.
So it's always a bit... And also she was not...
So she was hired by the local crew, but she was
not working in media. So it was the first time
working with them. So she didn't necessarily
know the relevant words, like the specific vocabulary
for what a white shot is, what format of video
this is, etc. So it's always... sometimes a constant
struggle on trying to be understood, trying to
understand what is needed, etc. So that's a lot
of meetings back and forth, for example. So that's
another issue we are facing. And to make sure
that there is a live and that the basic quality
of the live is covered, we need to make sure
that... first climbing is filmed and then we
can introduce a split screen and then yeah so
it's one step at a time to make sure that yeah
we can't some yeah in case how i we could not
cover everything in one go for the semi -finals
and finals for the women for example but we could
make it work uh for the men's the day after and
that's how we improve And after, in Nubujang,
the week after, it was the same crew, which was
nice because we could start. We already knew
each other. We knew how to communicate. We knew,
yeah, they already knew the rundown also a little
bit. So it was already easier to make sure that
the live stream was following some guidelines
like that. Another thing people on Reddit asked
about was kind of about like the cinematic shots,
like foot chips, hold closeups. Is that a direction
from the IFSC or do the local crews do that themselves?
In the control room, there is a director and
sometimes he's switching the cameras himself.
Sometimes he's behind and saying to his operator
to, okay, camera one, camera two, et cetera.
That's up to the TV crew to decide how much beauty
shots. The direction is up to the TV crew. We
can give some guidelines again. The main guideline
is make sure that the cameraman keeps enough
space above the climber so we have at least two,
three... holds above so you can see where the
climber is going it's it's not evident for people
not knowing the sport sometimes they center the
climber and so you see uh holds below no you
need to to leave some space above um it's not
it's just simple things like that and the thing
is like is a tv crew is in the end the one the
director is in the end the one taking the decisions
of how the live stream looks like. So if there
is a director very happy with his setup, with
big lenses, with cameras being able to zoom a
lot on small holes and maybe some crane doing
some... Very nice moves along the walls and things
like that. Of course, he will want to use these
tools. They are quite expensive. There is a nice
show, light show. It looks very nice, but maybe
it doesn't show climbing as it should be. just
because you don't follow the action as you would
want to follow the action if you are a climber
yourself. So in my opinion, close shots like
that, they should be maybe two seconds on air,
three seconds at max. If you have an action,
like if the climber is moving, you want to show
the hold. two, three seconds. If you go more
than that, of course, you lose something. But
again, that's difficult to say to some directors.
And of course, you could keep that for replays.
And usually, these directors, they use replay
a lot just because they have a lot more shots,
a lot more cameras. we do for example so they
have a lot of mean at their disposition and the
replays are usually quite long which also cuts
the action so the next athletes needs to wait
to enter for example and you have longer live
streams for example so that's also something
that could be smoothened a bit but yeah again
it's The last decision is by the director in
the end. Yeah, I wonder if you could just tell
them climbers will go and grab their chalk a
lot, so that's a good time to show replays or
close -ups. Yeah, I mean, there are some directors
who put some replays even during the four minutes
in the boulder finals. While people are resting,
they put some replays, etc. There are some crews
that have... like two or three replay operators
preparing replays all the time. So of course,
they have the possibility to put some replays
at any time during the show. And of course, it
removes these little dead times that can cut
a bit the rhythm in the final, for example. But
yeah, it's a question of balance. Sometimes I
feel like... When TV productions have a lot of
cameras, etc., it's too much. And the thing is
also you need to consider that there are different
kinds of audiences for climbing. Most, like we
are climbers, so we know what we like to see.
We usually like to see a wide shot and you see
the full. the full climb and then you see the
full movement of the climber. And you don't necessarily
need some closer shots because instinctively,
you know what the holes look like, but just by
the look of it, you know how hard they are. And
there is a less experienced audience who don't
necessarily have these reflexes. of understanding
why the climber is doing that at this moment
and they are more interested by beauty shots
and also they need some to see their holes much
closer and to maybe understand what what are
the holes like because you see if you have an
experienced eye maybe you see the crimp okay
it's very small but maybe for a non -climber
audience you need to wow to stay more than three
seconds on the small holds and oh is he holding
me like that that makes sense i like seeing the
small ones too yeah it's so and the thing is
like the idea to have tv crews local tv crews
and um the live streams being displayed broadcast
on local channels it's just to reach a non -climber
audience the non -climber audience is kind of
becoming the target for these live streams so
that the thing like the the climber audience
is vocal about it it's maybe it's just it's still
a minority of the the watchers i don't know if
you've had experience with like other sports
productions um do you know if they go like a
similar route where they use local teams every
time and there's not as much consistency because
i guess my only other experience with like watching
other sports broadcasts is maybe like broadcasts
that are more just within the u .s so i don't
think travel is as difficult but for more like
global productions i guess maybe like F1 or something
like that I've never watched it so I don't actually
know if they're consistent or like have consistent
angles or anything like that do you have any
like comparisons on what other TV productions
do so my team is working with the FSC since 2016
something like that so that's and me I've arrived
at the FSC in 2018 and so I'm covering most of
the World Cup since then And in my team, I'm
almost the only climber. So, yeah, but they are
quite experienced, especially the director is
very good. And he understands the sport quite
well. He's quite invested in it. And I think
he is very good at just covering the sport, in
my opinion. So it's not a problem that he's not
a climber. On the other hand, my team is also
covering some other sports, especially ski. They
are coming from the ski. Before that, they were
doing ski events. And yeah, I don't remember
exactly what they are doing. And from this year,
they also cover the ski mountaineering. So they
do the production for that also. So they have
some experience in other sports. Me personally,
I don't. So I can't really compare from one production
to one sport to the next, how the productions
are doing. I know that in Schemo, they do most
of the productions also. I suppose that from
one, from big... For big sports like F1, Formula
1, I think it's local crews maybe. I don't know.
Okay. But Formula 1 is such a big sport that
for sure all these crews, they know how to produce
it. And that will be the same crews doing that
every year for many years. Okay. So maybe we
just have some growing pains. Yeah, it's still
growing. It's not like soccer also. I mean, in
soccer also, it will be different crews depending
on the stadium. It will never be many trucks
moving around Europe, for example, to cover.
It will be local crews all the time, I think.
Okay. But it's not a problem because the sport
is so well spread that there are some... yeah
there is some theory behind it like okay there
is this and white shot then there you can go
close shot and things like that it's not like
climbing has been theorized yet uh to to cover
it yeah i guess we just kind of need that time
for it to be uh to like come up with a consistent
maybe like a baseline of what it should look
like yeah i think the One attempt to do that
was by this director in Austria. So the one who
is producing the live streams in Innsbruck every
year for some years now. And also who covered
the Munich Championships in 2022. I think he
is quite invested in... pushing the sport on
how to broadcast it and I think he had it's the
first attempt to really theorize it on AAA production
because I can't say that our crew is AAA I mean
we are six people plus four cameramen so we can't
pretend to be like the big production that produces
national TVs every week and we don't have a big
truck, et cetera. So we might have some theories,
et cetera, but... Wait, but what does... Yeah,
like big production. Okay. Yeah. So I think this
Austrian director is the first one who really
started to really think the sport. and how to
make it look good on TV. And I think more and
more producers will do that. I think in the Czech
producers also in Prague, they are quite interested
in showing climbing just because maybe, I don't
know, there is Adam Andra also and he's a national
legend also. Because of that, because climbing
is so well spread in Austria, because there is
Adam Ondra in Czech Republic, and maybe also
because there is Jamia Garnbret in Slovenia,
all these producers are interested in the sport
directly. And because they are doing it over
and over, year after year, I think in the end
there will be a quality raising up like that.
just because the experience is building up. But
if you do one event a year, of course, you can't
have... I mean, it takes time. And they are looking
at what everybody is doing. So when we see them
and they come to see us, to... to get advice,
et cetera, we see that they have watched some
other live streams. So, OK, you do it like that.
So we put these graphics at this time. And so
they are looking, they are preparing like that
also. That's good. The most invested ones. Yeah.
Yeah, you mentioned that there are some challenges
of filming Climbing for TV and that there are
difficulties specifically showing bouldering.
Why is that? What makes it difficult? It's inherent
to bouldering itself, like the format of bouldering.
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to the show. For TV, for example, what you want
to see. in in a sport is like um the winner of
the competition you want to see him or her the
most time on the on the screen right so in lead
it's it's it's obvious like the the one who goes
the highest uh wins the competition so the one
uh the longest on the wall wins the competition
The person who falls at three plus, you don't
see him or her much. Fine. That's perfect. The
problem with bouldering is like if you have someone
who can't start a boulder and can't establish
the start position and struggles for four minutes
straight on the mat, it's boring. And then you
have Janja arriving. And she flashes, she demonstrates
how to do every boulders. She's there on the
mat for like, on the screen, she's two minutes
on the wall for two hours of live streams. I
see. So there is, for bouldering, the shorter
you are on the wall, the better you do. You are
probably the winner. And it's not exactly what
you see in most of the sports. In most of the
sports, The winner is the one who has the most
attention, who gets the most shots, the most
time on screen, etc. So bouldering in itself
has a problem. It's not exactly... From a climber
point of view, in my opinion, it's the most interesting
to watch just because it's so varied. Like you
have... You have slabs, you have overhang, you
have every type of move. Some people complain
that there are some too weird moves, not enough
outdoorsy moves, not enough old school moves.
But in the end, you have all these moves anyway
in Boulder, maybe. Sometimes it's not balanced
enough. Maybe sometimes there is too much of
this type of move and not enough of the rest.
But if you compare bouldering to lead, lead is
always overhanging. You will never have a slab
in a lead competition. For example, it happened
maybe in the 90s in the first competitions and
people were just finding weird rest positions
and they were staying on the wall for... 13 minutes
30 minutes and uh people get yeah because there
was no time limit also so oh that's terrible
yeah exactly so they were climbing up they were
climbing down uh checking the moves going down
and resting forever oh that sucks yeah so that's
why the walls got much more overhanging and that's
why the road setters are not setting knee bars
where people can rest indefinitely and yeah the
other thing things like that but in bouldering
from a climber point of view it's quite interesting
like there is there is all climbing in just four
boulders not all climbing but you see my point
so but yeah from a non -climber audience i can
get it that it's you don't know what is happening
there is too much things happening The format
is difficult to explain. The rules are difficult
to explain. There is attempts to make points
now. In my opinion, I think we lose a bit the
thing about attempts. The attempts are less interesting.
And also, you can't read directly the performance
of a climber. Before, it was one top, one zone
in. that many attempts now with just points you
don't know exactly the performance just because
it's points it doesn't translate exactly in how
many attempts were used so you need to make calculations
it's a bit yeah so it's it's bouldering is complex
it's just because it's about climbing and it's
climbing is so complex yeah i mean i think the
point system will help with understanding I think
it makes a little bit more clear just because
then there's like a numerical value that people
can point to. But yeah, I guess I do see the
issue with like the star not really getting that
much screen time. But I mean, it's kind of similar
in like, I guess it's not that similar, but like
in speed, the faster climber obviously is spending
less time. Yeah, but the faster, the winner.
He's not eliminated until the end. Oh, that's
true. That's true. Yeah. So you see him or her
the whole competition. Okay. And he or she will
get all the replays. Yeah, I guess I don't know
how that would be self -reporting. Yeah, I mean,
I've thought a little bit about it. The best
would be to eliminate. the worst people like
what they do in arco for the uh i don't remember
the name the rock masters the rock masters yeah
the problem is like if you eliminate someone
uh after the first boulder and this person was
not good at slab but right very good at yeah
it's not fair just because And also for the competition,
it's not fair because what if this person eliminated
after the first boulder was the only one able
to do the boulder two, for example, or boulder
four. So there is this unfairness that is problematic
if you eliminate people. Yeah, I've seen some
competition formats of the elimination format
where you can't go to the next boulder until
you finish the first boulder. But yeah, that
does seem kind of unfair because there are just
so many bouldering styles. Yeah, I think the
solution would be to not impose an ordered circuit.
The best would be, and that could be actually
quite interesting, you leave the athletes to
choose in which order they want to climb the
boulders. there is still an observation of all
four boulders. And then in isolation, they decide,
okay, I want to do boulder two first, boulder
three, and then blah, blah, blah. So there is
some strategy involved. And as a commentator,
it could be super interesting. Like, okay, we
know he starts, like he's better at slab climbing,
et cetera, but he's going for this one. Maybe
that's because he... Yeah, I think that could
be quite interesting. That would be interesting.
I don't think I've ever seen that in any format.
It might be kind of hard to feel. And also hard
because what if two people want to do the same
one at the same time? Yeah, I mean, you would
let people climb one by one. There would still
be only one person on the climb. Of course, with
the new format, there are two people on the mat.
Yeah, it would be only one person on the mat.
And difficult to film? Yes and no. It would be
an extra difficulty. But anyway, all the cameras
are placed for the whole final anyway. So the
only one moving is the mobile camera on the mat.
But anyway, most of the time, the cameraman is
placed in front of the... of the door and then
you will just follow the the athlete and then
yeah of course the camera will have to adjust
to focus on this boulder instead of this one
but that's not a problem that's not a big deal
it might be hard in terms of graphics because
then you have to explain like oh this is this
problem but this person this is this person's
like third problem that they're on i don't know
i i don't think it's unsolvable either yeah interesting
um and i want to go back to something you mentioned
a little bit earlier how do you balance attracting
a new audience versus satisfying the existing
climbing audience so non -climbers versus climbers
who are watching i don't think we think that
much about how to attract a new audience except
maybe in the graphics how to explain the sport
better. So that's why points were introduced.
Now this year, there is a new little graphic
explaining what the graphics mean. There is its
own rule thing. So it explains the icons and
stuff like that. So it's mostly via the graphics,
I think, that it comes. Also introducing predictions.
For example, it's been a long running topic.
So the predictions, it's basically when a boulderer
enters the mat, what he or she needs to do to
reach this rank, for example, on this boulder.
So that already you can do quite a lot just with
the graphics, introducing something so people
understand what is going on. And I think it has
come a long way since I've started. Just in the
lead bar also, it's quite explanatory. Things
like that. After, in terms of filming itself,
of course, beauty shots are nice. And that's
usually what TV wants, just because... I don't
think TV wants a wide shot, a still wide shot
with just four boulders in the shot and climbers
going up and down. That would not work for TVs.
Having too many shots also, switching from small
holes, narrow shots to, yeah, et cetera, close
shots, et cetera. I think we are doing a bit
too much at the moment, but it might calm down,
hopefully. Maybe keeping the narrow shots and
small shots for when the climber is resting,
for example. So in lead, for example, that would
be when they are shocking up and they are on
the same hold for 15 seconds. There you can allow
yourself to put a narrow shot, a close shot.
Or you can just put on the close shot for three
seconds. But yeah, I think to introduce climbing
to a new audience, wide shots, split screens
is still the best. And speaking of like graphics,
since that is kind of your specialty, I think
on the Reddit post there was some positive feedback
on stats showing up in graphics this year. So
good work on that. But I guess the issue that
comes up sometimes is that they often don't show
up or they lag behind. I think, for example,
the lead progression in the past couple events.
Bali or Wujiang would just be kind of slow to
update. So people are wondering, why are the
scores rarely shown on screen? And yeah, why
do graphics lag behind sometimes? Yeah, so the
new graphics, it's a new graphics solution. It
has been developed this winter by a new team
of developers so it's a new it's a new production
doing them i've had access to the solution quite
recently and it has been tested on some test
events so we have a platform where we can test
the graphics of course graphics are working like
all the results big result screens and names,
etc. It's very easy to test, for example, just
because they don't necessarily need a live update.
But for all these provisional graphics, live
progression bar, so the lead bar on the side,
it's much more complicated to test. Of course,
you can do that and simulate some events. But
like, for example, in China, I had some problem
with the internet connection just because of
the Chinese firewalls. I think it was blocking
the access of the platform. I mean, it was slowing
it down. So there are things that we can't foresee
in the tests. And because it's a new solution,
I have a team on support during the live stream.
So I'm exchanging with them constantly and I'm
giving them feedbacks on where it updates and
where it does not. So they just improve that.
So there was some tests and then like in any...
development. I'm working also beside the FSC.
I'm also working on some applications and stuff
like that. We can make as much tests as we want.
Nothing beats the live event. You will always
find bugs. Like me, for example, trying to display
that at some weird moment just because there
is a dead time and the live progression was not
meant to be displayed at this moment. So like
in between, for example, two climbers and there
is no active climber. And then, of course, the
active climber is not on the lead bar and it
should appear. So just weird things like that.
So yeah, we are exchanging a lot of feedbacks.
It will get better event by event. And it's already
much improved, I think. And another thing, like
why it's not updated, it's better now, but sometimes
the judges, they just input the scores at the
end of the run, for example. Because the judges,
so there is one having the tablet and making
the plus, plus, plus while the climber is going
up, for example. And then there is another one.
having the topo of the route being printed and
following with the finger the progression of
the climber. And I don't know, maybe if the judge
with the tablet is not sure of where he is at
the moment with his whole number, he has to refer
to the topo, etc. And that can take some time.
It's also an explanation sometimes. And sometimes
they don't update right away. They input the
result at the end. So when the climber has fallen,
they check. They make sure that the result is
correct. They make it official. They put it in
the tablet. Then we have the result only at the
end. So sometimes I'm sending a message and the
judges are being told to input the result live.
So yes, there are reasons, but different. Sometimes
it's user errors. Sometimes it's, yeah. Yeah,
another thing people were wondering about was,
or people were asking for, was seeing scores
show up on screen more often, which, yeah, I
think that's a fair ask. It mostly depends on
how the director is filming the climbing. if
he or she leaves enough space for the scores.
If he or she... Yeah, I mean, now we have in
bouldering, we have the split screen now that
has been mostly introduced for the main semis
in Keishao. So there is a live, the provisional
on the right and then the four names at the top.
That's quite nice. And it means that the results
are there all the times. That's great. Then in
finals, we have a split screen already sometimes.
I like split screens. I'm all for split screens,
but it means that sometimes there is not that
much space to display the graphics also. So I
display the names and there is maybe not space
for anything else. And then in between, in rotations,
maybe the director is putting in some replays
and there is no time to display the results.
So again, it's a question of getting to know
how the director is going to work. Sometimes
also it's a director wanting to decide when I'm
displaying things. My role is to be under the
direction of the director, right? So I have to
follow what he wants to do. And sometimes it
doesn't want to have that much thing on the screen
and prefer to display some other things. Although
it's quite tricky with this new format. Just
because people are not climbing the same boulders
at the same time. Some people have a score. when
they have two boulders while some others have
a score with three boulders already. But yeah,
I kind of agree that it's important in this case
to display the results more often. And I think
we will try to do that in the future. The fact
that it's a new format also, I mean, there is
some adjustment ongoing, right? Like split screen,
it's obvious. Like we have seen that with...
combined last year uh yeah two people on the
screen of yeah two people on the mat of course
you you do a split screen um it's not a lot of
productions don't really like it because it's
not tv like oh really yeah yeah yeah i don't
know it's it's coming from tv some productions
don't really like it but i think for for climbing
it works quite well um And the good thing is
graphics aren't developed like that now. So it
pushes directors to actually use split screens.
Good to know. You also mentioned that there's
often difficulty with the timing system. What
do you mean by that? Just like putting the clock
on the screen? It's more like there is not a
uniformized solution for timing. In a lot of
events, there is one solution, but for example,
in China, it's a local company doing the timing
system. So from one event to the next, it's different
the way we retrieve the timing system. The timer
is not included in the graphic solution. Just
because there are different kinds of data that
needs to be retrieved, etc. Usually, we just
retrieve a video signal. That's much easier.
And we mix it in the live stream. But it's not
integrated directly in the graphic just because
there are different companies doing different
things. Now we know most of the system used in
the different World Cups. So yeah, there is no
problem to retrieve at least the video signal.
And from this year, we do two clocks now on semis.
lead semis, which is finally a good improvement.
The big problem is there is not a uniform clock.
But that's also normal. There are some organizers
that have been using this system. The organizers
are providing everything. so that the competition
happens, right? So they provide the walls, the
holes, etc. And they also provide the timing
system. So if the local organizer is used to
work with this timing system, of course, they
have the LED display with it. They have all the
material because it's not a light system. Sometimes
you need to... It's not like the graphic system
that... comes with on two computers so it's it
there are a lot of cables involved there is a
team dedicated to put on the timing system so
it's not like you can move a timing system team
from one event to the next it's the organizers
who have to provide that so that's why we The
broadcast team of the IFSC have to adapt to what
is provided by the local organizer. Yeah, I didn't
know it was so difficult just to, I don't know,
just to put up a time. Yeah, I mean, for boulder
and lead, it's quite easy. But for speed, you
can't really make anything. I mean, it needs
to be certified. All these timing systems are
certified IFSC, but it's still local. It's local
things. And the CMA, for example, the Chinese
Federation is working with this timing system.
Some others are working with Dicron. And all
these timing systems are certified to be able
to be on the World Cup. Well, I think that covers
most of the complaints people had. I hope I...
I hope I gave some explanations. Yeah. Okay.
So now for something a little bit lighter and
maybe more fun. You've traveled with the IFSC
a bunch. You go around to all the World Cups?
So I started in 2018. And since then, yes, I've
done most of the World Cup, yes. Whether we do
the production ourselves or we don't. So just
because I'm the graphic operator, I'm basically
always there because I always need some graphics.
Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, that's like
a lot of traveling you've done. Does anything
stand out to you in terms of like what makes
traveling difficult or like any crazy stories
you have while traveling? Yeah, so when we do
the production, we usually travel. six people
and it depends whether we hire cameramen locally
so maybe it's local cameramen that we need to
to train specifically for that but when we travel
by six for example we also come with all our
gear by plane And it means that it's a lot of
boxes that we need to declare to the customs,
to move around on trolleys in airports. People
think that we are a music band and stuff like
that. And yeah, so it's not like we can arrive
one hour, one hour and a half before the flight.
So we need to arrive quite a long time before.
And we need to, like yesterday, I spent, I don't
know. for hours more when we arrived from Bali,
like just the time to retrieve all the boxes,
make sure that everything has arrived, declare
it at the airport, then crossing the border to
go back to France and need to declare it again
and load. So that's quite a lot of work to move
all these fragile items like that. And yeah,
we usually travel with one company only just
to make sure that we have a directed line, a
direct line. Yeah, and we travel all together.
It means that we are together sometimes 24 -7
when we share bedrooms. So when we go for three
weeks, we are always... together so that can
be difficult to handle sometimes i mean we we
usually have yeah we have no problem which we
could not live together like that if we didn't
like each other but sometimes you would like
to have a bit your long time you know right um
and uh yeah each time at the beginning of the
season i and i i'm telling myself okay this year
i can i will take some time for me during the
season. I will work on some other things, etc.
And in practice, I just can't. I'm just fully
on the work. And when I'm not working at the
venue, we do again something together. It's not
like I can escape to do my own thing. I could,
but yeah. Not much time. Yeah, not much time.
And yeah, it's quite strange to be home again.
It's a lot of busy feeling all the time when
I'm away and then coming home. Like there is
this, you know, that sudden slowdown and okay,
what do I do now? I'm a completely different
rhythm and it usually takes a few days for me
to adapt to the new, yeah, to slow down again.
Yeah, I think Matt said a similar thing. Yeah.
Just weird being home. But yeah, Matt, it's even
worse because he's actually doing, I'm doing
most of the events. This year, I'm not doing
all of them because the season is quite cramped.
So like the beginning, it's also events are concentrated
at the beginning of the season. There is not
that much after August. So I'm skipping some
because I'm not going for the US, for example,
because I have five weeks in a row already. Oh,
no. Yeah, sorry. Oh, I thought I was going to
see you again in Salt Lake. Yeah, sorry. But
yeah, so this year I've decided to take some
time off. But for Matt, it's even worse because...
He's not stopping. He's not replaced. He's doing
all the World Cups. I mean, even in between events,
he's not going home. He's doing some other things.
And I can understand that it can be hard to slow
down if you have so few time between events.
It's difficult to readapt to the rhythm all the
time. Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, yeah, I have
two days. I'm not going to slow down much because
I'm just leaving again Friday. So I'm just doing
a lot of things when I'm at home. Yeah, makes
sense. And it is a shame that you won't make
it to the US World Cups. I know you mentioned
you had like a weird experience in the US at
Salt Lake. Yeah, it was a bit weird indeed. last
year it was in the TC but maybe the year before
so 2023 we were the venue was located in in a
park I think it's Pioneer Park yeah Pioneer Park
in the middle of Salt Lake and it's usually a
park where there are a lot of homeless people
and there were pushed for the for the competition
and the venue was enclosed so there were some
fences around and yeah so around the venue there
were still a lot of homeless people um and uh
one day i went to uh uh to the venue early in
the morning And I didn't have much to do until
the afternoon or something like that. So I just
did a few things. And then I had time to go climb
because I wanted to go to the bouldering project.
I don't know if you know. So it was like, I don't
know, 20 minutes away from the venue. So I take
my climbing stuff. I go to the bouldering project
and just... Leaving Pioneer Park, I passed by
one man who was just sleeping under the trees,
etc. And I remembered that passing by him, I
looked at him and I saw that he didn't look very,
very well. Yeah. Yeah. So I went climbing. Nice
session. I don't know, two hours, maybe something
like that. And got out, started to be quite warm.
And I remember passing by another guy that was
sleeping in full sun, etc. But he didn't look
very well either. Continued on the avenue. And
then there was some policemen who had caught
a woman. They had just grabbed her and... Yeah,
I don't know. She was screaming like mad. And
apparently she had just run down the avenue naked.
And there was a friend on the other side of the
road and he was yelling at the police also. So
I thought, okay, that's US. Okay, why not? Yeah,
now that I'm thinking about it, that does actually
happen. Yeah. Fairly frequently, I do see that.
Yeah, yeah, but I'm not used to that. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm not used to that. And so, yeah. Usual American
scene, apparently. And I just cross the road
back to Pioneer Park, and I'm passed by this
sleeping guy again. He had not moved an inch
since two hours. And detailing him a little bit
more. Yeah, he really didn't look very well.
So I turned back. I asked the police who were
here. That was nice. I didn't have to call anybody.
I just told them to just have a look at this
one. And I continued a bit. And they came to
see. And they just put the ribbon around him.
So yeah, that was strange to find this poor dude
like 50 meters away from the venue like that.
This whole morning was very strange. Does that
have anything to do with you not coming back?
No, no, no. Actually, I came back last year.
No problem. Well, yeah, sorry that was your experience.
Can't say I've ever seen a dead person before.
So it's not always like that here, at least.
Yeah, it's not like it traumatized me. But yeah,
it's still weird to know that. Yeah, like it's
50 meters away, like you are working and people
are having fun and there's some dude dying there
in his sleep. Well, at least it seemed semi -peaceful.
Yeah, hopefully. I don't know. So outside of
IFSC travel and stuff like that, you also do
some climbing gym work. You mentioned that you,
I guess, work for Climb Along. Besides the IFSC,
mostly during the off -season, but I'm still
working with them during the IFSC season. So
I'm working with Climb Along. It's a Danish company.
It's based in Copenhagen. And we have developed
a result system. So for competition, climbing,
climbing competitions. The idea came when I lived
there at the time. It was, I don't know, in 20...
I think it was during COVID actually. I was stuck
there. So because I was working with the AFSC
already. I connected with them, I met them, and
we started to develop a result system for competitions,
just because there was not any result system
used by the Federation at the time. And so we
wanted to develop something. The idea was first
to propose some data for live streams, because
I wanted to display more. during live streams,
like predictions for bouldering and stuff like
that. So the idea came from there. And then from
one thing after the other, we developed a full
competition platform. And now we are working
with some federations, mostly in Scandinavia,
but also over Europe, like in New Zealand also.
And we also work with some... climbing gyms in
the US, actually, in movement. And then we have
started to work on another product, which is
called Spot. And the idea is to put some cameras
in climbing gyms. And we have an image analysis
program that detects climbers and holds. in the
climbing gyms. And basically the idea is to give
feedbacks. So it measures activity in climbing
gyms. So it counts the number of attempts on
a boulder, the number of tops on a boulder. And
it gives feedbacks to the gym owner or to the
route setter about the activity in his or her
gym. So that way you can see which boulders are
popular, which boulders are tried a lot, where
they are failed a lot. And then as a route setter,
you get some data, objective data, so you can
adjust your route setting for the next time and
things like that. So the idea is to bypass the...
a logging app that exists so some climbers are
using it but it's not really used by most of
the climbers in gyms let's be honest so we lack
a lot of data and sometimes it's quite subjective
data because some climbers are just logging the
boulders that they are succeeding so Yeah, here
the idea is really to detect all kind of attempts
and to give feedbacks like that. The idea is
really to introduce some data -driven workflows
in climbing gyms because rotating is quite instinctive,
you know. Some people even consider it an art.
Kind of. So you need to feel a bit the movement.
You need to, it's very tactile, right? Climbing
is tactile, but even for route setter, you need
to feel all the holes. You need to feel, okay,
this move, you are trying all the time, et cetera.
But here's the idea is really to give back objective
data to route setters. That's not easy to make.
Some rotators understand it very well and see
the point of having results on a huge amount
of data because that's really a huge amount of
attempts that can happen in one day in a busy
climbing gym. that's quite a lot or even a week
like some boulders they get i don't know how
many attempts 5000 attempts in a week so that's
quite a lot of and with this amount of attempts
you can get quite objective uh you can you can
see things you can start to see things and it's
very different uh to the way route setters are
currently working, where it's so feeling like.
Yeah. So introducing data -driven workflows in
such artistic work, it's quite a hurdle, but
I think it will work because after that we can
maybe look into... Maybe the use of holds, for
example, which holds are used a lot, which holds
are being, what's the life expectancy of holds?
Can they withstand that many foot placement on
them and stuff like that? So you could start
to gather quite a lot of data on how efficient
your gym can become. Did you work in a climbing
gym before? these things in climate change? No,
I've not. Actually, I have not. But yeah, we
have talked to a lot of route setters and see
how they are working. And there are many different
workflows from one country to the next, from
one gym to the next. There is a lot of different
philosophies from what they want to provide to
their customers. And of course, there are a lot
of ethical questions. coming with it also. The
big topic is how can that standardize climbing
and do we want to standardize climbing? In my
opinion, it's probably not. I think climbing
is so nice just because there is so much diversity
in climbing. So it's more like to give. feedback
to people and then people decide what they want
to do well like what do you mean by standardized
like if you get some feedbacks on uh on your
boulder and you see like this style of boulder
is is very popular in your gym are you going
to set only this type of boulder or do you want
your customers to improve also in this style
of climbing like in i don't know In one place,
maybe people are very good at slabs. In another
place, they suck at slabs. Do you want to still
set slabs and so people get better at slabs or
you want to completely remove slabs from your
gym and your customer just gets the tops they
need? Yeah, so that, I mean, it already happens.
There are some genes who don't want to necessarily
have slabs. Makes sense. Yeah, that's a cool
project. It's quite interesting, yeah. So, yeah,
in terms of getting into some of the audience
-submitted questions now, do you ever personally
re -watch comps for fun or to get better at your
job? Or just because maybe you missed it because
you didn't really get to watch it while you're
working on it? Yes, I do. I started working at
the FSC after because I was watching comps. And
when I'm not doing World Cups, I'm doing most
of the World Cups. So I'm never re -watching.
I'm never really watching World Cups events,
but I'm watching other events that I'm not on.
So just to check what is going on. But I'm probably
not watching the full live from zero to finish.
I'm skipping a bit. It's a dead time. Maybe skipping
one athlete to go to the next boulder and stuff
like that. So yes, I mean, if I'm watching to
get better at my job, after a live, I know what
was wrong and what was that. Yeah, what was not
good. I know it right away. Besides the graphics,
I'm also in charge of the running order. So make
sure that the graphics are displayed at the right
time. But I'm also saying to the... When I'm
working with my colleague, I'm telling him when
to display what at what time. So I'm giving the
countdowns all the time. And I know when the
live streams is going well, there is a nice rhythm.
We are well on time. for each deadlines on the
TV breaks and stuff like that. I feel like the
rhythm is good. The shots are moving quite well
after each other. And we debrief after. Usually
we say what was good, what was not good. So after
a live stream, we usually know what was good
or not. And of course, we can go back to it and
see, OK, at this moment, the colors were not
good. The sound was a bit shaky. There was too
many shots on the quick draw, for example. Last
weekend, there was too many shots on the quick
draws. So we're really happy about that. But
yeah, too much. So we know it for next time.
Okay, last question. Actually, I don't really
know if you would know the answer for this, but
is it legal to be there and stream the whole
event as a spectator? Actually, I don't think
so. I would say no. I think it depends on which
round it is. I know that for qualification, it
would probably be possible. But for semifinals
and finals, I don't think that would be possible.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense because the local...
Broadcast team has the TV rights. Yeah, I mean,
there are TV rights for sure. So even to have
your camera and taking pictures, et cetera, you
would need an accreditation. Like you got one
in Keishao, I think. Yeah. And I know that there
are some athletes who were doing some videos
about... their competition and, like, you know,
their vlog, how did it go in the semifinals,
etc. And, yeah, they needed some accreditation
for that, for example. A complicated process.
I guess you would have to ask. Yeah, it's probably
not. If you want to install a camera on a tripod
and to film the full qualifications, maybe. Maybe.
I think they would be okay with that. But you
would need to ask, I think, before. For semifinals
and finals, probably not. Cool. I think that
is all the questions I had then. Thanks for joining
me today. Is there anything you want to shout
out or let people know where they could find
you if they have further discussion topics? Yes.
I mean, I have a quite confidential Instagram,
but if you want to trash me on Instagram now,
yeah, I'm Antonafareller. OK, I will leave the
link in the description. Any last minute thoughts,
or you feel like you got everything out there?
No, I think we have covered most of it. I will
do my best to improve the predictions, but yeah.
Good to hear. All right. Okay. Thank you again.
And it was amazing to talk to you. Yeah. Thank
you very much. Thank you so much for making it
to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to like
and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you
are a super big climber. If you're listening
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on the free competition climbing discord linked
in the description. Thanks again for listening.