Boy meets girl, girl's a rock climber, says,
if you want to date me, you better learn how
to rock climb. Had almost hit a few people on
bicycles and I was like really in denial on the
fact of like how little I couldn't see. Great,
now my kids are never going to look up to me.
I'm just going to be this blind guy who can't
do anything. And, you know, my kids are never
going to think I'm a superhero or nothing. I
like finished the climb. I come down, I look
at Katie. I'm like, what the hell was Rachel's
problem? Like, what was so serious? She's like,
well, you basically just told Jakob Schubert
to fuck off. There's no money in it. So someone
has to kind of take the loss to build the space
for us. So I think we're all very appreciative
of the people that do this for us. Welcome to
another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing
podcast. I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited
to introduce my guest for today, Chaz Misuraca.
Chaz is a blind para climber from Team Canada
and is in the B3 category, meaning he has about
10 % of his sight left. What's crazy is that
he didn't start climbing until after he lost
his vision. In this episode, we'll learn about
his rocky journey, losing his vision at 32 years
old and struggling with alcoholism, how to lead
belay blind, and we'll hear some stories about
run -ins with famous climbers that he doesn't
know because he can't watch climbing content.
There are so many things I have never considered
about visual impairments when it comes to climbing,
so I hope you enjoy this episode with Chaz. Real
quick, I'm excited to announce my new sponsor
helping make this podcast episode possible, Mad
Rock Climbing. I got fitted with their brand
new line of high -performance shoes, the D2 .1s.
They just came out December 6th, but you might
notice a few of your favorite gomp climbers are
already wearing them, like Oscar Beaudrin from
Team Canada, and also me. This is the first time
I've gotten to wear their shoes for an extended
period of time, and I'm actually super impressed
with the grip of their in -house rubber. And
of course, the famous drone heel that everyone
says is the cheat code to heel hooking small
edges. Feel free to message me if you have any
questions about the shoes or sizing, and you
can use the discount code NOTREALCLIMBER for
10 % off your entire MedRock order. Info will
be in the description. Back to the show. In general,
how was your day today? You said you're like
in a training stint right now. i am yeah um i
actually just got home from the gym i actually
was just skiing for the last two days so oh body's
kind of sore from that but aside from that everything's
going well yeah so like climbing training yeah
well i've also had two surgeries in the last
you know 10 months i think so i'm still doing
a bunch of physio for that which is pretty annoying
um i had hip surgery and a shoulder surgery but
i'm in the midst of just doing the full Body
exercise. And then I'm going to the climbing
gym this afternoon. Afternoon chatting with you.
Did you get like injured? Is that why you need
surgery? Yeah, I don't know about my hip. I've
had a hip pain for since like before high school
type of thing. And then I tore my labrum, some
rotator cuff stuff in my shoulder climbing a
few years ago. Never got it looked at. And then
once I started competitively climbing. I decided
I needed to actually go to the doctor. For the
last, like, two years, I couldn't do a pull -up.
Oh, wow. Which you can't really climb super hard
when you can't. I mean, it made me a better climber,
actually, because beforehand I would just muscle
through things. So I had to be more technical.
So I'm really looking forward to how my climbing
will be once I'm fully healed. which will be
a while still like they end up having to remove
part of my bicep tendon like three centimeters
of it and reattach it um and fix a tear in my
labrum but yeah once i got that looked at they
found all these injuries i was like maybe i should
get my hip looked at because it's hurting worse
a lot of days and then i'd get like some bone
spurs ground off my femur so yeah i was a bit
of a mess for a while i'm back to climbing now
um i technically i'm not supposed to be climbing
yet i haven't really been cleared by a doctor
but i'm just listening to my body and climbing
at the best of my ability without uh overdoing
things yeah better to be able to climb in the
future rather than get a little bit of training
in now yeah same as like when i was skiing the
last two days i'm like in the back of my head
worried about falling and then setting myself
back so luckily everything went well and body's
feeling pretty good i mean i was pretty stiff
this morning but um after the workout this morning
i'm feeling pretty good yeah and so like what
does climbing training look like for you right
now it's uh mostly just working with my collar
quite frequently and getting that down and just
i mean it started off i'm gradually increasing
it At first I was like, I'm not going to climb
anything over 5 '9", then nothing over 5 '10",
and then we've just been kind of slowly amping
it up. Basically just like getting lots of miles
in right now, it seems, without overdoing it.
Trying to leave the gym not sore. But we're going
on a climbing trip next week to Bermuda, so I
need to be... I didn't know there was climbing
in Bermuda. Yeah, no one really does. so my friend
jazz who's been my caller for the last two or
three comps is born and raised in bermuda and
you know there's a lot of like i mean i've never
been there but from what she has told me a lot
of like really good deep water solo and there's
i want to say bolted roots but i know they also
use she calls it knots i think they call maybe
they literally are no threads they literally
thread rope through cracks and stuff and you
clip the rope from what i believe or from what
i understand apparently it's not sketchy um they
do replace it i guess sometimes and actually
another para climber i read this in the guidebook
they were referring to jim hewing who was a sterling
ropes engineer and i guess i sent him some rope
and he did some tests on it and it had been on
the cliff for like 10 years and it still didn't
fail like eventually it failed obviously but
was still very safe to be climbing on even though
it's it's in the weather it's in the sun it's
in the salt so that's why they do that because
like if you use titanium bolts which are expensive
um so yeah there's not a ton of development that
has happened there i think it's all been done
by like one or two people um like jazz has been
one of the main climbers down there um so yeah
i'm excited to go check it out but i'm bringing
a fishing pole with me that way if my arm does
get sore and such i think it's all like pretty
stout climbing so that way i'm not forcing myself
to continue climbing can you like have fun i
can essentially you're climbing like on the seashore
the whole time um that's where the cliffs and
stuff are so yeah it sounds i'm getting sore
i'll just fish yeah and the water there is beautiful
from what i've heard and sand is gorgeous so
It should be a pretty fun time. And before we
get too much into things, for those who don't
know you, I guess first, what is your disability
and then how did you get into climbing and competing?
So I guess my name is Chas Mazuraka. I am Canadian
and I'm a blind rock climber. So being blind
is my disability. I have about five to 10 % of
my sight left. Like both eyes are a little different.
I have a hereditary disease called LHON, which
stands for Leber's Hereditary Optic Neuropathy.
I was 32 years old when I lost 90 % of my vision.
I'm now 38. So like six years ago, we'll say.
The way it worked is February of 2018, I started
losing sight in my left eye. And by the summertime,
I quit driving and my right eye had basically
caught up. My left eye is a little worse. Like
I classify as a B2. So I essentially explain
in international blind sports, there's three
different categories. B1 is zero vision. B2 is
5 % or less. And B3 is 10 % or less. I guess
that's another thing a lot of people probably
wouldn't know. I know I did not until I lost
my vision, is that most people that are blind,
I think it's like 8 % of people who identify
as being blind have zero vision. Like there's
very few B1s. A lot of people, vision loss is
a huge spectrum. I have no central vision. There's
people who have central vision. It's like they
look through straws type of thing and have even
less vision than I do, but yet they can see and
read something, you know, like 20 -20 vision,
but only through little holes. Where mine is
basically just really blurry. I can see out of
my periphery, which is, you know, not just left
and right, like up and down as well. Essentially
there's like a void in the center of it. And
my brain's just kind of learned to adapt. I kind
of like look around things, my eyes shuffle a
bit. And I've never seen it in clearly. Like
even if I stick my hand out, like I can see my
hand is here, but I can't actually see like my
individual fingers on it, but I can tell as a
whole it's there. And maybe imagine being in
a swimming pool with no goggles on and opening
your eyes, you can see. stuff that's in the pool
if you're close enough to it but you can't actually
see anything clearly if that makes any sense
you try it next time you're in a pool or the
ocean I hate opening my eyes in a pool yeah it
hurts it uh so yeah so I didn't know my family
carried this and after they finally found because
it's such a rare disease seven people a year
in Canada get diagnosed with it so it took I
mean, man, I started seeing doctors in February.
I wasn't diagnosed with it until December. So
almost a year just because, and even when I was
diagnosed, the doctor knew so little about it.
She like had told me some false information,
actually really, really devastating information
in the sense of I have two sons and she had told
me that they were both going to go blind, which,
which isn't true. So like I lived with that for
like a month or two. I remember I was pretty
like rattled about that. Cause it was like, who
tells someone that unless you're like absolutely
certain. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah. I, and actually
it's kind of funny. She's a rock climber and
actually climbs at the gym. One of the gyms I
train at. Oh, interesting. I haven't crossed
paths with her yet. I was telling this story
to someone and I said her name and she was like,
Oh wow. Like she climbs here. I won't say her
name, but one of these days I'm going to tell
her that she, she misinformed me. So she doesn't
know that that's not true still? I'm not too
sure. I haven't asked her. Hopefully she's learned.
But I mean, if she's never been told, that's
false. So how do you find out that that's not
true? I got moved on to another specialist. I
had to see a neuro -ophthalmologist, which she
is, to get my diagnosis. And then there's one
doctor in Canada who's part of a research team.
um out of like ucla in italy like they have they
work out of america and italy some specialists
researching this and the one i see in ottawa
and he knows pretty well the most about this
disease out of like three people in the world
so he then informed me that that is not true
um like on a biological level it's passed on
through like the x chromosome And I don't have
that or produce that, I suppose. It's been a
while since it's been explained to me, but you
know, in the making of a baby, I do not pass
on the X chromosome. So yeah. You lost your sight
pretty late in life. Do you remember a lot of
like, what was life like before versus after
losing your vision? And in terms of like how
you felt during that transition process? Yeah,
it was way different. So I'm, a licensed diesel
mechanic and I had just like a pretty basic normal
life we'll call it you know I grew up in a small
town and just yeah I just worked all the time
was in like this echo chamber a journalist wrote
like an article about me and titled that I had
to go blind in order to see like I asked him
where he came up with that title and he's like
well you said that to me when I was interviewing
you and it kind of makes sense because I didn't
I wasn't exposed to, I guess, a lot of things.
I lived literally in this little community, in
my little echo chamber of like -minded humans,
we'll say. And I never met a blind person before,
never met anyone else with other disabilities.
It's not that I avoided people. I just was never
in crowds or scenarios where we were crossing
paths. And yeah, my whole life literally changed.
Was always kind of like seeking, making more
money and having a better title at work and things
like that. And then my whole life just kind of
like imploded on itself. It's actually, you asked
me, I didn't answer. How did I get into rock
climbing? Yeah. It's kind of like a classic tale
of boy meets girl. Girl's a rock climber says,
if you want to date me, you better learn how
to rock climb. Oh, really? Yeah. So I was like
working at a shop. And my ex -girlfriend had
came there to get a heater installed in her van
she was building out to then move into and work
and live out of. And during that, me working
on her van, she had told me this whole like dream
of traveling around, climbing, working. I'd never
met any rock climbers before. I kind of thought
it was just like far -fetched. Only crazy people
do that and didn't really understand anything
about climbing. And, you know, she was, like,
very passionate about it, explained it all to
me. And then we, I guess, started dating. It's
kind of, like, a weird... At the end of the day,
I had, like, given her my phone number because
I thought we had this really good connection.
And I even, like, asked her, like, out for dinner
that night. And she said no. And then I... I
had a broken ankle at the time. So I was like
rolling around the shop in an office chair. My
goodness. And she then, I was supposed to have
surgery on the Monday because it's on a Friday.
And she had then like messaged me to see how
my surgery went. And then from there, we started
chatting. And then like a couple weeks later,
she came down to visit me. And we started dating.
And I was already blind in one eye at this point.
Just one eye though? Yeah. Because this was in
like late June, early July. And I was still getting
passed around from like doctor to doctor trying
to figure out why I couldn't see. I was still
in the mindset of like, oh, like it's just something.
At first I thought I just scratched my eye at
work. Like I've had to get things drilled out
of my eye before, like rust rings, like getting
steel in my eye at work. Oh my gosh. Right. So
I just thought it was just a workplace hazard
and was like, oh, it eventually goes away. was
really optimistic that everything would just
work out and then yeah her and I started dating
and because I had a broken ankle she was like
you know I'm gonna cut you some slack on the
climbing but once you heal if if we're ever going
to work out you need to rock climb because that's
all I like to do and so I was like yeah yeah
it's fine like I can get into this rock climbing
thing maybe like a few weeks later I then like
went to go to work one morning And I, like, looked
left and right when I went to pull out onto the
road. And, like, I couldn't see. And I was, like,
rubbing my eyes. And I was, like, holy shit.
Like, I had then, like, prior to that in the
last, like, week had almost hit a few people
on bicycles. Oh, my gosh. And I was, like, really
in denial on the fact of, like, how little I
couldn't see. And I kind of, like, broke down,
started crying and stuff. And I called my work
and told them. And they were, like, yeah, like.
We've noticed that everyone around me could tell
I couldn't see very well. Oh, man. Even though
I just sort of didn't want to think about that,
I suppose. Yeah, that's scary. Mm -hmm. But then,
yeah, at that point, I was still, like, months
away from seeing a neuro -ophthalmologist. And
then, yeah, her and I moved, like, up north.
I then did a lot of drinking and avoiding the
fact of what was happening to me. And kind of
went to like a bit of a dark place for a while.
But then during that time also like helped build
out this van. I then got into a clinical trial.
Actually, I should back up a bit. I then was
told I probably had LHON. And then my sister
had found an LHON Canada group that was meeting
in Ottawa in a couple of weeks. I was just like,
oh, I don't want to go to that. Whatever. And
Tara was like, well, I wanted to take you rock
climbing in Gatineau for the first time. So my
ankle was starting to heal. And Gatineau was
like just on the other side of the bridge from
Ottawa. So she kind of like lied to me a bit
in the sense of like, we're going there anyways.
We might as well stop in Ottawa. And if this
meeting sucks, then we can just leave. So my
sister and her were on my case about it. And
then I finally agreed to that. And I walked in,
never have met a blind person before. It was
pretty sad. I thought very low of myself because
I'd only ever seen a blind person in a movie.
And it's either one of two things. You're either
this crazy superhero or you're this very feeble,
inactive, can't do anything type of thing. And
I kind of thought that's what my life is going
to be. And then I go there, and this first man
I meet is all happy and walks up to me, and he's
like, hey, man, do you play hockey? I was like,
well, I used to. I can't anymore. He's like,
well, just because your eyes don't work doesn't
mean your legs stop working. And I thought he
was sighted. I was like, this guy's a prick.
Get him away from me. And then a bit later, he
was on stage giving a speech, talked about how
he rollerbladed across Canada and how he plays
for Team Canada in hockey. And I looked at her,
and I was like, well, that sounds like that prick
I was talking to. She's like, well, that is him.
I said, well, I need to talk to him again. Like,
how is he walking around here so freely and he's
all happy? Like who could be happy with their
vision like this? And like everyone here sees
the same, like kind of. And then I get talking
to Mark DeMontis, this is his name. Sorry. He
like very positively impacted my life. Yeah.
He invited me to come to a blind hockey game,
which I was like, that's going to be a joke.
A bunch of blind players are going to be skating
into one another. And he was right, just because
your eyes don't work doesn't mean your legs stop
working. Because everyone's ripping around the
rink. They've all learned how to listen to the
puck and to each other and communicate. And there
really isn't any collisions. I mean, it does
happen, but it even happens in sighted hockey.
And, and yeah, then like, I never rock climbed
before my sight loss. So I went to Gatineau and
climbed outdoors there and it was absolutely
amazing. Yeah. Like, because I didn't climb before,
I couldn't relate to how hard it was compared
to when I could do it. Like, for example, like
everything else. I would take for granted like
things like brushing my teeth. Yeah. You don't
think about like putting toothpaste on the toothbrush.
So it's been a while since I've thought of some
of these things. No. Okay. Yeah. Take as much
time as you need. And definitely like how far
you've come since then. Yeah. It's crazy actually.
Cause I was like Savick this all the time. Oh
wow. Yeah. And it was really hard on myself.
I'd be like, I can't even put toothpaste on my
toothbrush. How pathetic am I? And again, I meet
a buddy of mine at hockey and I'm like, why didn't
you come up with this? I'll never forget. Joey's
like, bro, just squirt it in your mouth. And
I was like, oh wow. Yeah. Like brilliant. Is
that how you do it now? Yeah. And now I don't
cry when I brush my teeth. I just squirt it in
my mouth and it's like so easy. But anyways,
I, you know, rock climbing, I couldn't compare
how hard it had gotten with sight loss because
I didn't do it before. Everything else I had
to pretty well relearn. And climbing, you know,
got me out in nature. I had to like try hard,
climb these like epic things. And yeah, it was
just quiet. I had to be like a lure in my thoughts
or like essentially like remove the thoughts
that quieted my mind. Um, I was just like in
the moment trying to figure out where the next
hold is. How do I move here? Um, so it was very
calming. So in a way it was, it was a lot better
that you didn't get to experience it before going
blind. Yeah, I believe so because like everything
else, I probably, I experienced this with a lot
of new blind people or people that I've met.
I try to do as much as I can within the blind
community to get people. into sports and such
it's been so helpful to me post I lost and you
know it's the same old thing like people be like
well like I used to be able to see double black
diamonds and now I can't do this and I guess
that's the thing I hate hearing is like I can't
um I'm like well yeah you can like clearly there's
going to be a learning curve but you can I mean
I was just skiing double black diamonds for the
last two days but like I obviously didn't lose
my sight first time on the hill ski double black
diamonds i had to like relearn how to do these
things i think a lot of people just quit because
like well i can't do this thing i used to do
as well as i used to do it but it's just like
well you can get there if you put the effort
in um so yeah so with climbing it was the one
thing i got to do and i did it all the time because
of this new woman in my life that only wanted
to rock climb yeah okay and then i got into a
clinical trial in Colorado for this like a synthetic
form of vitamin Q10 to help like prevent my sight
from getting worse um so now I'm in Colorado
all the time we like finished building the van
we're down there and then for like the next three
and a half years while her and I dated I basically
like just toured around and rock climbed all
over North America and we went skiing did all
these things Um, I also like, so I'm an alcoholic
and I really struggled throughout a lot of time
with my drinking, even though I was doing these
awesome things, I'd go on these waves of like
climbing and being really good. And then as long
as I would come home or like back into like civilization,
we'll say, and I'd be reminded of how blind I
am. It's like when I'm just out hiking down a
trail, following her, she's, you know, putting
up these climbs, I'm following them. not really
thinking about being blind. She never even gave
me an opportunity to really whine about it. There'd
be the odd time I'd wake up and I'd be like pretty
emotional and she'd be like, oh, like what's
wrong? Like, well, I woke up today and I kind
of thought I would see and it was all a bad dream.
And I'd be like, oh, I'm not going to climb today.
I'm just going to like lay in bed and sulk. And
because she needed me to belay her, probably
she'd be like. Well, like, no, that's not an
option. Like, do you know where you are right
now? People would like kill to be in the side
of this mountain that we're on. Like, get your
ass out of bed and come. And, you know, I would
resent her in the moments for that, but I can
look back on that and I'm like super grateful
that she didn't sit there and let me like, you
know, put myself down in that moment. I then
was talking with like Ontario Blind Sports. ontario
was the province i live in and i was like well
like i rock climb like where can i rock because
i could probably i didn't really climb in gyms
like like ever i got been in a couple maybe just
randomly if it was like raining somewhere for
a few days in a row and we kind of wanted to
keep up climbing and even that's kind of funny
because like i learned how to lead climb outdoors
and i would go to gyms even one of the gyms i
train it quite frequently I became friends with
the manager there and I'm lead certified there
and she had asked me she was like well who certified
you to climb here I was like well you did she's
like really I was like well like I obviously
don't like act blind around you I'm like pretending
I can see the belayer as I'm belaying and I'm
not like leading on to like you know that a fact
that I can't see very well um because I can belay
very safely I just don't look at my climber while
they're climbing which during tests I do just
to not... To make it look like you are. Yeah.
Okay. Same people would be like, well, you can't
belay if you can't see, but like that is definitely
not true. Like I feel the rope and such. And
yeah, like instead of, and especially if I'm
climbing out the doors, it's really cool because
I, if it's quiet, you know, like I'm listening
for the carabiner to be unhooked from the, your
harness, like here at the... the gate close and
i'm kind of like envisioning i can like hear
you like put it through the bolt and yeah like
i'm essentially like imagining everything that's
happening up there um and then yeah i'm just
paying attention to like feeding rope and and
how much slack is out all by feeling it versus
you know looking and like how much to give you
like i just feed your rope and if you're pulling
i'm just like quickly reacting to it. And if
I've thrown out, thrown out too much, I then,
you know, pull it back in. Once I've heard you
clip the draw, um, like knock on wood. Yeah.
Like I've never had any accidents and I, I have
a lot of people that like ask me, like I, one
of the first big multi pitches I did was like
this big adventure. It was like a five hour hike
into the Rocky mountains with this team of people
from Texas. And like we were in Alberta and i'd
met these people a day before they invited me
on to go do this climb i had no idea what it
was i had no idea i've signed up for this like
epic adventure and as we're like hiking in the
one guy's like hey like i'm gonna do all the
leading he's like don't let my buddy belay me
and i was like dude like you don't remember i'm
blind right he's like yeah he's like i watched
you belay all day yesterday and you're just like
you're so much better than he is and i was just
like oh okay like i was just like that's interesting
that this man doesn't want his you know best
friend to belay him on this like climb that they
came to canada to do he wants this random blind
guy to do it for him yeah well um and yeah and
even on that climb like i remember you know i
was only following it but like i had the other
guy he was like a very strong climber he had
fallen on one of the pitches and i was like wow
like little things like this had to happen for
me to realize i'm not this and blind people aren't
these people that are portrayed in most movies
like i am very capable two of the people that
were on this team of five that were going to
this climb didn't even make the approach because
it was so scary to them like i have a benefit
of not being able to see things that i was supposed
to be afraid of okay and i remember they pointed
out where in which direction the climb was we're
going through the scree field rocks are falling
and i was just like someone behind me is going
to kill me with like rocks are you know kicking
out so i was just like i'm gonna like trek ahead
and i'll meet you over there and i was like sitting
there for like two hours i need to walk to like
waist deep snow at one point oh my gosh it was
in like june so it was like 30 degrees out but
and i remember i was just like i stripped down
i was like sitting on this rock it's like you
know sunbathing and drying out and eventually
one of them found me and he was like well like
how did you get over here And I was like, oh,
and I just like walked across this rock. And
he's like, well, if you were to fall, I'm like,
you would have died. I was like, oh, I'm like,
I don't know. I'm like, I just, I could see that
it was like a spire we were climbing. And like,
once I got close enough to it, I could like see
it because it was massive. I'm like, I decided
to come to the base of it. And this is the way
I found to get here. And then two of the people
were like, I'm not walking across that. And then
they bailed. I'm like, you just walk for five
hours in one way to. get here just to be like,
I'm too scared to walk across this. But again,
I had no idea that I should have even been afraid
of it. I mean, in hindsight, does it scare you
that you like run into these moments and you
may or may not know that it's like a life or
death situation? No, because I'm very careful.
I feel like I'm careless. There's like a controversial
man, Jordan Peterson, like or dislike what he
says. The one thing I do agree with is He's quoted
saying, like, when kids are doing dangerous things
carefully, leave them be. Yeah. And I am a kid,
I suppose. And I'm doing things dangerous, but
I'm doing them very carefully. And I'm not being
told, like, oh, be careful and this and that.
And I'm not psyched out. So I'm just, like, careful.
And I also use hiking sticks. I feel around with
them. Oh, okay. Yeah. I guess I should maybe
say that. I'm not just, like, blindly, like,
feeling around. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I learned,
I really fought using hiking sticks. Cause again,
I was just like, hiking sticks are for like old
people with bad knees. And I really struggled
on approaches. And I remember one day, um, my
ex girlfriend, I was like on my butt, like scooching
around and people like walking by us. And it's
probably like very embarrassing for her. Cause
like I, the hill I was going down, I'm now like
leveled out, but I don't know that. And she's
like, I'm buying you hiking sticks tomorrow.
And I was like, quit being ridiculous. I'm not
using hiking sticks. She was like, Chaz, like,
stop and like, think about yourself right now.
And I like feeling around, like I'm on flat ground
and I'm like crawling on my butt. I remember
I got like a bit of a breakdown. I was like,
damn, I can't even walk on flat ground. It's
ridiculous. And then I got hiking sticks and
my whole life changed. I can like, I mean, I've
had friends that have, you know, if I've been
to the crag before, I know how to get there.
And I'm like ahead of everyone. Like, dude, like
what took you so long? Like, well, we don't have
your fancy hiking sticks. We can't, you know,
get here as quick as you. And it's just like,
wow, like here I could barely walk. And I get
these like, you know, two little things in my
hand. And now I'm just like powering through
just confidently. And again, like I don't always
know where I'm going or like what I'm stepping
on. Maybe not even be on trail sometimes. But
if I know the general direction, I just kind
of like haul ass and get there. Okay. I'm getting
the picture that you were like very stubborn
in your own relationship and she, uh, she helped
you through a lot of this. Yeah, she did. She,
like, I'm very grateful for the time that we
had together and the things that I was able to,
I think losing your sight, a lot of people I've
experienced kind of go like one of two ways that
feels maybe as with most disabilities, you know,
it's very easy to go into like a very dark place
and just like, stay there and you know i would
have moved back home to my parents house and
probably just like drank myself to death type
of thing and felt sorry for myself and oh poor
me and i never i mean i did have those experiences
but because i was out doing these awesome things
and climbing i yeah my whole life just kind of
like blew up yeah i guess i'm back to the comp
climbing I then, you know, I started playing
blind hockey. I then heard about there being
a Team Canada. So that was a goal of mine. I
wanted to make the Canadian blind hockey team.
And I was going to a tournament and then I got
a phone call. I never actually even asked her,
but the woman that runs CEC, the Climbing National
Federation, she had called me. And I remember
being in Bulk Barn, and it's like a store here
in Canada. It's like Costco. Yeah, well, better,
but less. Oh, wow. Okay. You buy bulk food. I
go there to buy seeds and such that I mix in
my yogurt. Okay. But anyways, she had called
me, introduced herself, and I don't even know
how she got my number. I should ask her that
sometime. But anyways. She was like, hey, like,
there's this World Cup coming up in Salt Lake
City. Would you like to be the first blind or
visually impaired climber to represent Canada
at an international climbing event? And I was
like, yeah, sure. No idea what that even meant.
And then that's how I, like, started all this
journey of comp climbing. And I'd never even
heard of a collar. Like, didn't even know what
that was, even though, like, friends of mine.
Would sometimes, I guess, spray beta at me, but
sometimes wouldn't. Like, I can remember my buddy,
Matt, who I was talking about. We were, like,
climbing in Vegas, and I'd come down, and he'd
be like, dude, like, what are you doing? Like,
you're holding this little crimp. There's this
fucking jug beside it. And I'm like, a lot of
my friends forget I can't see. Okay, yeah. And
I'm just like, dude, I can't see the big jug
beside me. Like, you could have told me to move
my hand over. Yeah. Like, I make a lot of climbs
harder than they need to be. Going back a little,
when you are climbing, I guess most of the time
when you're climbing outside or not climbing
in a competition format, you are just climbing
without getting information about the climb or
without a caller? Yes and no. A lot of times,
depending where I'm climbing, like in Red Rocks,
where the rock is red, you have people chalk.
up their hands so like there's white on the rock
i can see when i'm close enough to that ah okay
to tell at least where the general direction
of where i start feeling will be and i may i
won't i don't know is that a gaston am i under
clinging it is sometimes it's even misleading
because people may touch something and then realize
oh you need to like bump to something else why
just touch the first thing if like oh there is
a hole there i'll use it even though there's
an even better hold somewhere else. So if I'm
climbing with someone who knows the route, because
it's harder to see rock shapes, they can then
say to me, like, you know, go up further, move
your hand like this, give me some beta that way.
But like outdoor calling is a little harder.
Sometimes people will tick things. So they'll
be like, hey, when you see this tick mark, when
you're there, tell me when you have to tick,
because they maybe can't see me. and then they'll
maybe explain something to me there um to the
point of like i've even had people carry like
charcoal with them if i've been climbing places
where the rock is very white so like white on
white and they'll like tick things with like
a piece of you know campfire um and yeah so it's
a lot of feeling around um people do call for
me if they if they can Okay. So then, yeah, going
back to your, I guess like first competition
experience, what was that like? It was pretty
awesome. Cause then, yeah, they'd, I was in like
a zoom call. They'd asked me to bring a caller
with me. Like what the hell is a caller? And
then they explained to me that I can have someone
there that can help, you know, tell me how to
grab the holds and like sequence my moves and
stuff like that. And I was like, Oh, like, well,
I don't really have anyone to bring. And they're
like, well, don't you like a climbing partner
and my girlfriend i just broke up in january
this is now may and i was like no i'm like i
don't like my climbing partner was my girlfriend
i doubt she wants to come okay and call for me
yeah and then i was like anyone else and it was
like american and stuff like well like an american
can come so i'd actually asked it's kind of like
a crazy part of my life as well as And I asked
this friend of mine, he was like, you know, one
of my best friends. And it was like a week or
two before the event. He had then like started
dating my girlfriend when we broke up and he
hadn't told me about it. Whoa. Okay, wait a minute.
Okay, that's kind of. It turned out to be a really
good thing. Okay. I didn't, he had sent me this
big message before him because he was going to
be my caller. And then he. my friend had told
him he's like you got to come out and like tell
chas this enough of you like doing spanish back
type of thing and he then wrote me this big big
uh message and i uh i read it i was like devastated
and like i remember screenshotting it and like
sending it to like i'm in a 12 -step program
i got i quit drinking like you know a few days
after my uh girlfriend left me um Oh, that's
good, I guess. Yeah, it was. It was really necessary.
I mean, I'm not trying to, like, bad talk her.
She had her reasons, and I stand by them. But,
like, yeah, she, like, left me in a parking lot
in Las Vegas. Oh, my God. Okay. And, yeah, it
was, like, awful. But it was very necessary for
that to happen for me to, I now didn't have someone,
like, asking me to quit drinking. I was just,
like, all alone. I kind of came to that conclusion
on my own. I mean, even my friend who is now,
they're now married. It's like, I'm proud for
them. He then took me to get like a PCR COVID
test. And I remember asking him like, oh, take
me to the liquor store because I have like another
two days before my flight home. And he looked
at me and was like, Chaz, if you could see yourself,
he's like, you would know that you're not going
to be allowed to get on an airplane. He's like,
you look ridiculous right now. Because I've just
been drinking day in and day out for a few days
now. And he's like, you should go and eat an
edible and just pass out for the next day and
get home and whatever. And then I went back to
my hotel room. And I still had booze there. And
I heard what he had said. And I've never drank
another day in my life. And I never will. So
I then flew home. And then my friend Matt drove
me to the airport and he suggested that maybe
I try going to like a 12 -step program. And then,
and I did. And yeah, I've been so, like, you
have to do a lot of work. You don't just join
a program and magically you now don't have problems
anymore. Because again, like alcohol wasn't my
problem. It was what I used as a solution to
all my problems that I didn't know how to deal
with. But anyway, so then I screenshot that message
sent to my sponsor. And he's like, well, you
need to pray for them to be. And in the message,
I guess my friend had asked me to forgive him.
So my sponsor was like, well, you need to forgive
them and pray for them to be healthy and happy
and have everything in life that you want. And
I remember being like, that's not at all what
I want for them. And he was just like, yeah,
but again, this man had never. misled me so I
was like I'm just gonna keep following his guidance
and and I did pray for that repeatedly and eventually
I did believe it and I do truthfully I am hoping
that they are having a grateful wonderful life
together but then anyways that then takes me
to I now don't have a caller yeah that was quite
a roundabout story that was good to know yeah
I kind of went off topic there I do that a bit
sometimes but uh It's getting me to where sometimes
in life I've learned that these awful things
happen. I'm just like, why me? And afterwards,
there's a quote I've heard. It's like, life is
lived forward but understood backwards. And that
right there is a very important part of my life
where in the moment I was like, oh, this couldn't
be any worse. And it turned out to be such a
great thing because I then am on this Zoom call
with the Canadian team. I was like, well, can
one of the other pair of climbers call for me?
And they're like, no, like they can't see the
roots and stuff. I was like, it's like, well,
like I have like a week or two. I don't, how
am I going to get someone to call for me? And
then they had also said in the Zoom call that
we would have access to watch the able -bodied
climbers compete because they had, because of
COVID and stuff, they had like back -to -back
comps, if I remember correctly. So then I was
like, oh, like, well, can one of the other Canadians
that are going to be there call for me? keep
in mind, like, I don't know any of these people.
Never even heard of them. Cause I don't, I don't
comp climb. Don't know anything about comp climbing.
And the one guy who was on the call was like,
yeah, he's like, I know an athlete who I think
would be like really interested in this opportunity.
And then like an hour later, I get like an email
from someone named Alana Yip. And I was just
like, oh, cool. Alana Yip, neat. She, this woman
wants to help call for me. I remember like the
next day. being in the climbing gym and my phone
rang it was elena yep because she'd email me
like here's my number i'm going to call you tomorrow
remember the manager of the climbing gym could
read the big font on my phone she's like why
does elena yep have your phone number i'm like
who the hell's elena yep because like she's like
so stoked right and again like i hadn't known
anything it's like i have a second time i've
ever heard her name not knowing that she's like
the most badass rock climber in canada and but
I was like very ignorant to all of that and then
yeah like Alana and I then like you know met
we talked on the phone she was like yeah like
you know like I think it'd be an awesome opportunity
to like you know help you and be your caller
and stuff and then we'd met in Salt Lake City
like a day or two days before my comp like we
climbed once together and then next thing you
know we like jump into a world cup and and yeah
we like ended up crushing it and uh yeah and
then like i said that was like the cherry on
top of the story of my girlfriend and friend
like getting together and stuff like it was that
had to happen in order to like lead me to you
know meet like get to like climb with eleni up
and have her like literally in my ear while i'm
rock climbing and yeah like i said i i'm really
happy for my ex and my friend that they got to
go their way and stuff and it then allowed me
to go you know it closed the door for me like
it's just redirecting me somewhere else um and
yeah like my life turned like I have a great
life now and I get to do a lot of like awesome
things like I ended up winning we got silver
medal in that competition um oh nice yeah congrats
yeah I was sick and then yeah like since then
I've got to do like a ton of climbing like all
over in Europe and stuff like that as well. I've
went to a couple of world cups there, world championships.
Um, you know, I get to like hang out with like,
you know, literally the best female log climber
in Canada. Um, where like I, my, my path never
would have crossed hers if it wasn't for that
happening type of thing. It's really interesting
that you like thinking about you not knowing,
like being active in competition climbing and
not really knowing any of like the other competition
climbers um is there like a is there like a big
name that you just didn't know of like what's
the biggest name that you feel like you had no
idea about Please excuse this brief intermission,
but if you're interested in deleted scenes from
this episode where we talk about run -ins with
famous pro climbers and what good versus bad
calling sounds like, do consider helping support
this podcast on Patreon. Some other perks include
a membership pin shipped to you after two months,
prioritize guest questions or the ability to
submit video questions, and more to come. The
proceeds go back into the podcast to help me
break even, and they help me improve the experience
of the guest. If you'd like to help out non -monetarily,
liking, commenting, and sharing helps a great
deal as well. Back to the show. Well, I'll tell
you a story. In Bern, Switzerland, I was there.
And again, I had to have these crazy moments.
So the men's lead world championship was happening.
So I go in this big arena. and i can't see so
that i'm like asking the security guard hey i'm
blind can i go and stand like down there with
like the photographers and stuff so i can try
to get closer and i'm standing on there like
i run into a friend of mine she gives me one
of her cameras i have this like huge telephoto
lens i'm trying to zoom in and the crowd's going
crazy and like i'm zooming in but i can still
just see like this blur i can now like tell where
this body is but like i have no idea what he's
grabbing what he's doing and i remember like
The crowd's going nuts. I remember being like,
fuck, like, I wish I could see what was going
on up there. And then all of a sudden this like
voice in my head came in and was like, Chaz,
if you could see, you wouldn't be here right
now. I was like, I wouldn't be standing here.
I wouldn't even be a rock climber. I wouldn't
be in Switzerland at the world championships.
And all of a sudden I was just okay with not
being able to see. And who this was, was Jakob
Schubert, who I'd never heard of before. Cause
again, unless I've been somewhere with Atlanta.
And she's like, introduce me to someone. Cause
again, like I don't look up things on internet,
on the internet. And like, I'm not reading magazines.
So I think that's also really cool because I
meet these people who it's just like, oh, this
is so -and -so. And I'm like, oh, hey. And I
just talk to them like some other climber and
I'm not fanboying over them. And I feel like
they get to have like a regular interaction with
me that I feel a lot of people that are in the
spotlight don't get to have that often. So again,
like being blind is another, there's a lot of
benefits to it. I mean, in a roundabout way.
But so then the next day I'm in the gym. I remember
my friend Katie's blinding me. There was like
this cool like outdoor pillar at this gym. Like
this outdoor climbing wall. And I'm like cruxing
out hard. And my friend Rachel, who's a para
climber, comes over and she's like yelling at
me. She's like, come down. I want you to meet
someone. And I'm like. can you shut up? Like
I'm trying to climb. She's like, no, like stop,
come down. I remember being like, can you just
fuck off right now? And tell me about the fall.
I'm like stressing hard. Yeah. And then I like
finished the climb. I come down, I look at Katie.
I'm like, what the hell was Rachel's problem?
Like what was so serious? She's like, well, you
basically just told Jakob Schubert to fuck off.
And I was like, oh my God. Well, there was my
one opportunity of, you know, meeting the world
champion rock climber who like just got brought
over here to like say hi to me. And again, I'm
looking down. I can't see them. I can hear Rachel's
voice. And I'm just thinking, we're literally
traveling around Europe right now together. You
can wait three minutes. But obviously, yeah.
So we never ever did meet. But I'm sure one day
my path will cross. Oh, no, you didn't meet?
No. Oh, no. Well, he's a busy dude. He just won
the world championship. He's making his rounds.
I think him and Adam Ondra are in the gym signing
autographs and stuff. And yeah, somehow Rachel
got him. alone for a few minutes and was like,
come over here. There's this Canadian guy I want
you to meet. So maybe one of these days I'll
tell him the story and we'll see if he remembers
this interaction. So I'm sure very few people
like talk to him in that manner. Yeah. I wasn't
saying it to him. I was saying it to her mostly.
We're really good friends. So she wouldn't have
been offended by it. And again, like I'm like
above my bowl trying to figure out shit and it's
not a time to be bothering someone. As a rock
climber, she should have understood that. So
if I, like, throw out some big names, can you
let me know? Yeah, try one. Yeah. Okay. Well,
so the obvious one would be, like, Yanya. Yanya
Garbrandt. Yeah, I know that name. I have been
in places that she's been. Okay. You don't know,
like, about her, like, accomplishments? Yeah,
she's, what are they, the GOAT. Okay. In, I guess,
some people's opinion. Like, right now, she's
definitely... From what I understand, it's just
crushing it and pretty well cleaning up house,
taking first place at everything. I could be
wrong, but is that not true? No, yeah, that's
true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just an absolute
crusher. Okay. What about like a newer name,
like Serato? No, don't know Serato. Sorry, Serato.
Toby Roberts? He's from the UK? Yeah. I've heard
that name, but I couldn't tell you anything about
him other than I've heard the name. He, he won
gold at the, at the last Olympics. Really? See,
that's it. Like I don't watch TV. I, I mean,
that's a lie. I've been, after my surgeries,
I've started to watch more TV, like listening
to books and stuff, but normally I don't spend
any time laying around doing that type of stuff.
And again, like with climbing, even climbing
films and stuff like that, for me to actually
watch someone rock climb, it's basically impossible.
Like I must have like a massive screen TV. And
even if I can see they're grabbing this hold,
say it's a white wall and there's a black hold
on it. Like I can't tell what the hold is. I
can't see enough to know that. So I'm basically
just seeing this blurb. go across the screen.
Yeah, not very interesting. Yeah. If I watch
like a Real Rocks, like when I had my surgery,
I was like, oh, I'm going to get Real Rocks and
I'm going to subscribe and I'm going to watch
them all. I watched like three and I was just
like, well, some of the stories are cool. But
I mean, it was also a lot of them were like the
same old, same old. It was like man or woman
goes to Craig. They want to climb this hard thing.
They fail. Injury. Whatever. It rained. Last
day of trip, going to try hard one more time.
Sent project, which is like cool and all, but
like I don't get to actually see the holds they're
climbing, the rock they're on. Like I think all
the, and none of them have audio, like video
description. It's like when I do watch things,
I only watch shows or movies that have described
video. And I would watch more Real Rocks or other
climbing films if they. describe them the one
i was kind of upset about is eric weinmeier he's
probably the most famous blind rock climber alpinist
skier kayaker biker i'll be above clint everest
he's climbed the seven tallest peaks in the world
and he's a b1 um and he has a real rocks out
and i was super stoked i think it's the first
one i found and same thing like no one's describing
anything so i'm just like shit like of all the
movies that should have described video that
makes sense this one i think would have it and
it doesn't yeah so yeah i don't know if anyone's
listening to this that can chime in and make
this happen but you would get more of an audience
base i mean for blind people um i mean not just
that even it's like when i lived in the van me
and my girlfriend would watch some say seinfeld
for instance and At first it was really annoying
for her to have to listen to these things. And
it got to the point where she would now, even
when I wasn't around, be listening to stuff on
described video. Cause you'd be like cooking
or doing work. Cause it, yeah, like it describes
so much. I remember her and I went to a movie
once. Cause I used to, again, I am stubborn.
I don't like change. I go to the movie theater.
She hears about like the described videos. They're
going to give me headphones. I was like, whatever.
I'm like, this is so annoying. But I was like,
I'll do a whole movie like it or with this. And
then we leave the movie and are being like, oh,
wow. Like as if the girl in the red dress had
the key the whole time. It's like in the movie,
they like unlock some box or something. She's
like, how did you know that? She's like, I was
curious who had the key, where the key came from.
I was like, I don't know. The man on the headset
was like, the girl in the red dress is handing
the man the key. And she then would start listening
to movies with the described video as well, because
it just makes it easier. to watch things even
my stepdad because i'll have it on tv at home
and at first it annoyed him he obviously would
be turning it off and eventually he's like oh
i can now be like you know on my tablet looking
at things while watching a movie because it's
like describing it all to me you don't have to
even look at it um so yeah try it sometime it's
kind of neat how does it work with like the dialogue
on top of it is it just like a lot of talking
at once Companies are pretty good nowadays. They,
cause a lot of times dialogue gives you enough.
And then when there's a pause, they'll just kind
of say something that is important to the, like,
for instance, on Seinfeld, you know, a Kramer
kind of like comes sliding through the door.
It would be like a man with crazy hair slides
across the floor while entering the room. And
it's just like a quick saying that. So it's now
like painting that photo in your mind of this
man with crazy hair. And that's all it says.
And then all of a sudden they start talking.
You don't need to know what color shirt they
have on. It's not telling you useless information.
It's just giving you a couple little tidbits
of information here and there. Interesting. Okay.
So then going back to like comp clapping real
quick, is there anything that makes you feel
unsafe when you're on the wall? No. Maybe the
odd time if I... I know that I'm going to take
a big swing. And if there's volumes out of the
wall, cause I, yeah, I'm just like, Jesus take
the wheel type of thing. In terms of like depth
perception, is that what it is? Yeah. I can't
see that. And it's happening so quickly. I don't
have a chance to react. Well, we just had Canadian
nationals a couple of weeks ago and jazz. And
I went to that and. They merged some categories,
which happens sometimes. So they merged me with
a B1, but then they called the category B3, which
doesn't make sense because Terry can't just magically
see a little bit better. So then I thought it
would be fair if I blindfolded myself to level
the playing field, but I've never done that before.
And then when I fell, I thought I was just in
thin air falling. And I wasn't, well, I mean,
I was until I wasn't when I smashed my face in
the wall because I didn't put my hands out. I
can normally see enough to tell like, okay, there
is a wall coming. I don't know. And again, this
is hurt sometimes if I like put my feet out and
I hit a hole, then it like twists my ankle or
something. But I've kind of just learned over
the years to be more rigid. I mean, not even
rigid, like learning how to like hit it and like
absorb the impact. Yeah, I don't seem to get
hurt so much anymore. Earlier on, I used to quite
a bit, but it was mostly, I was always rolling
my ankles, walking before I acquired hiking sticks.
So they were always like sprained and then I'd
go into the wall and it would twist it more.
The first like two years of my sight loss, I
basically like always had a boot on or an ankle
brace. I guess that makes sense in a way. Yeah,
I mean, it didn't stop me from living though.
I still climbed all the time, either one -legged
or dragging my boot up the wall, using it as
best I could. Actually, that reminds me of this
one video I saw of a climber. I think it was
during some older World Cup where he topped the
route or topped the boulder. And then he was
celebrating. He was really happy. And then as
he jumped down, I think he closed his eyes and
he... misjudged like how far away the ground
was and so he stiffened before he actually hit
the ground and then i think he like hurt his
back really bad or something and that was like
a really bad injury i bet bouldering is very
tough for blind people it so i was just bowling
the other day and i'll get to the top and i'll
like hang there i'll be like i was like let go
And I just like wait for my feet to hit. And
it's like feet butt back. And I like absorb the
roll as quick as I can. And it's exhilarating
in the moment, but if it's not controlled, like
my favorite time to fall is when I don't know
it's coming. Like, cause then it's just like,
you don't have a chance. And I just kind of like
naturally fall and like roll. Don't ever seem
to get hurt. It's more stressful when I'm at
the top and have to like actively think about
I'm going to. now let go it's like you don't
want to straighten up you don't want to like
lock your knees um because like things like that
happen all the time because i have no idea how
far away it is so i'm just winging it um terrifying
yeah for the most part it goes really well but
it took me a long time to get there i for the
longest time i wouldn't climb anything if i couldn't
down climb it and every time i'd be like freaking
out trying to down climb because i'd be like
super pumped and trying to down climb and Be
like, help me find my feet type of thing. Panicking,
I'm like, I'm never doing that again. I mean,
I obviously do, but it makes it hard to project
and stuff when you are literally terrified of
falling because you're like, I'm not just going
to fall on my own, I'm going to break my ankle.
But it took a while. That's why when I think
like new blind people, rock climbing, it's always
on ropes first. right yeah that makes sense just
because yeah bouldering while blind is pretty
sketchy yeah no yeah i i probably wouldn't do
it yeah i mean like next time you're at the gym
go to the top like close your eyes no i'm not
doing that go halfway then and and keep your
knees bent because like you don't want to walk
your knee yeah um because i've definitely had
things like that happen where I'm doing the same
route, falling in the same spot. And I think
I know how far it is, but for some reason remembered
it wrong and like straightened my knee too far
or something. So luckily I've never really injured
myself too hard that way. And mind you, I still,
I don't know, I was climbing, I don't know if
you knew this or not, but in Central Park in
New York, there's bouldering there. Yeah, I've
heard. And I was there and like one of the head
coaches for the USA, para climbing team was meeting
me in central park to take me bouldering and
as i was waiting for phil i saw these other guys
climbing i was like oh just like come and start
hanging out with you guys and then they went
to like move the mat when i was falling and they
moved it not correctly and i landed not poor
like i landed like feet butt back but i hit the
ground so hard like to this day i was two years
ago like the bottom of my right heel is still
like It feels broken. Yeah, it hasn't healed
yet. I don't know what's going on with it. It
should maybe get it worked out one day. Yeah,
that's not good to hear. Yeah, but I feel like,
because I let go, and if I could see, I probably
would have been like, hey, move the mat a little
bit, because I'm not going to hit it. But I just
have faith in people. Well, did they know that
you have visual impairments? No, I don't tell
people that normally, most of the time. Sometimes
it comes out. I mean, eventually if I talk to
you long enough, it comes out, but, uh, I don't
normally, I try to hide it a lot of the time,
to be honest. Why is that? Sometimes it's annoying
to deal with, with that. And then also, I mean,
the main thing I think is, uh, having to deal
with the whole, like you're faking it, or I know
you could see, for instance, on the way back
from the gym. Now I had to walk through, I cut
through this school. And the kids are out for
recess. And I was like, oh, damn, like, what's
the rules with that? But I was like, sure. I'm
like, I'm just going to quick cut through. It's
like 10 meters. I had to walk to the yard. And
I had my cane in my hand, but I was folded up.
And then I like walk straight to the fence. I
know where the handle is. I do this every day.
And then I can hear these little kids being like,
that guy's blind. And like, how did he do that?
And then, oh, he is blind. He has a cane or he
has a stick in his hand. And I'm like listening
to this conversation happening. And it was like
really cute because there were kids. And if I
wasn't worried about getting like a trespassing
fine, or I don't know what the rules are for
cutting through school property with kids there,
but I just kept moving. I would have maybe stopped
and had a conversation with them to, you know,
educate them a bit because again, prior to being
in this world, I was unaware of it. And due to
lack of education, like I wasn't willfully ignorant
to it. I just never really thought of looking
into what blindness is. but anyways i'll have
those same interactions with adults and stuff
and it's always hearing the same old thing like
like because they see me do something if they
know i'm blind it's always like well you can't
be blind you just did that like a very memorable
moment for that is i remember going so i have
two sons and you know they're young and growing
and we're going swimming and my one son His bathing
suit didn't fit him and the pool was going to
close like an hour. So I asked my mom to drive
us to Walmart to get him a bathing suit. I was
like, everyone stay in the car. I'm just going
to run in quick, grab it and leave. And then
I'm like running around the store, walking pretty
quickly and I can't find a bathing suit. So when
I see an employee and I was like, you know, excuse
me, excuse me, can you help me find a bathing
suit? She's like, they're over there. I was like,
yeah, I know they're over here, but I'm like,
I'm visually impaired. I've been looking, I can't
find one. Can you please help me? And she was
like, well, you move pretty quick for somebody
who claims they can't see very well. I'm just
like, can you just help me find a bathing suit?
Like, what is that? Like, in what world do we
live in that it says a blind man can only walk
this fast? Where it's just like, literally, if
you look into anything, it was like the 2015
Olympics. One of the blind, like a B1, so a completely
blind sprinter ran the hundred meter quicker
than. some of the slowest able -bodied Olympians.
Like he ran like a 10 point something, 100 meters.
So it's just like this man who's tethered to
another human is running as quick as able -bodied
Olympic athletes. Oh, okay. I didn't know they
did it that way. That's cool. Yeah. So like it's,
again, like this guy, and I have some vision,
so it's less. Yeah. Things that it's just, it's
annoying to have to be doubted all the time.
Like I even have friends of mine who know, like
if we're driving, say they're driving me home
or something and they'll, people always make
this mistake. They always turn, try to turn a
road that's one road early. And I'm always just
like, no, not, not yet. Like, oh, I knew you
could see. I'm just like, well, like, no, like
I've lived here my whole life. I know that you
haven't driven far enough. Like I could be tied
up in a trunk and I would know you're turning
on the wrong road. Um, yeah, I think hearing
things like that are just annoying quite often.
And you had also, um, brought up, uh, like the
Olympics or the Paralympics. Um, and of course,
yeah, big news, para climbing 2028. I'm stoked.
Yeah. Any thoughts on that? Yeah. Um, if you're
going to compete. Oh, I'm going to compete. The
only thing that would stop me would be they haven't
announced the categories yet. So in para climbing,
there are 10 categories, male, female. So that's
like a ton of medals. So if you remember with
the able -bodied climbing, Tokyo, they had to
do the combined all three disciplines. Yeah.
Like the reason why they did that is because
they could only issue so many medals. So they
had, you know, six medals to give out, three
male, three female. And then they then for Paris
were allotted, you know, 12 medals. So they can
now have two different events. And I think they're
hoping to have, you know, three sets of medals
so they can have individual disciplines like
the speed, boulder, lead. But it takes time.
for the Olympic Federation to allow a lot that
many medals to see sports. So for us, they haven't
told us what categories are going to be involved,
if there's going to be merging. I mean, all of
this is just rumors, but a lot of talk is blind
people don't look disabled. So it's not enough
inspiration porn for us to be on the TV, I suppose.
Even, like, a lot of people find blind climbing
very interesting. And my suggestion to the IFSC
was to televise the callers, like, mic both of
us. I mean, we're already mic'd. Oh, yeah, that
would be interesting, yeah. That way, if at home,
you're not just flipping through the channels
and seeing some man or woman climbing slowly,
you can hear the two -way. Because, like, yeah,
there's chatter back and forth. I think it's
very interesting to listen to the back and forth
conversation. Like I even me, like I wish I could
hear what's happening through the other people.
I feel like some teams don't want to share that
because they have developed their own secret
information. Yeah. And they don't want everyone
to know the beta that they have. I hope they
get over themselves and that's not. I think it
makes it very engaging too. And also it makes
climbing this team sport. It's very much, so
even at the Canadian Nationals, and I think,
so USA Nationals just happened. They're now,
and a lot of other blind sports, the caller or
the guide are treated equal to the athlete. I
just referenced the 100 meter dash. You ain't
just some random dude. You're an Olympic athlete.
to be that guy's guide like the guy who ran that
10 10 .5 seconds with him also just beat a guy
who was in the olympics so it's just like but
he's there's a canadian cross -country skier
he's on both teams and again his brother is his
guide but his brother's also an olympic cross
-country skier yeah and they train together every
day anyways so like i mean like you need to have
high level guides so then they need to be treated
You know, like they've been getting medals, like
other sports, if there's a cash prize, the caller
or guide will get, you know, that money as well.
Because they, and that's an argument people have
is like, yeah, but they're not training as hard,
say in climbing. Because, you know, if I'm doing
off the wall training, like say this afternoon,
you know, Jazz is going to call for me. So that's
equal time spent. But this morning when I spent
a couple hours at the YMCA working out, like
she wasn't there doing that. So it's not a hundred
percent equal, but she's still putting a lot
of time in and she still has to, you know, be
educated on the hold. But yeah, so I hope that
they merge us as I think, I don't know what they're
going to do, but they, for a lot of other blind
sports. They combine B1, B2, B3, and they just
blindfold everyone. Yeah, I was going to say
like in terms of inspiration porn, being blindfolded
is pretty decent, I think. Yeah. I mean, also
someone who has classified as a B3 and I have
central vision, or I have no central vision and
they do have central vision, people can argue,
well, that's not even fair because that person
could view the whole route where I can't. Like,
I don't get into the nitty gritty details like
that. Like, I don't like to complain about things.
I'm just grateful that I get to climb these wicked
awesome routes and that we, you know, are involved.
Like, I feel, and again, I wasn't aware of this,
but a lot of disabled people grew up never getting
to experience sports or, you know, being included
in the things. blind people I meet are, they
don't have like people skills or they're very,
they're not very confident in themselves and
their abilities. And it's because they haven't
been given opportunities to do anything. And
they're, they're babied and treated so differently.
I'm just like, I'm not any different than you
are. I just don't see, I mean, I can do everything
you can do. I just do differently than you do.
I mean, other than driving a car illegally, there's
nothing that anyone else can do that I can't,
that I can drive. Not on roads. No, I'm joking.
Oh my gosh. I was going to say, wait, how? I
had no idea. I drive by feel when I hit bumps,
I turn. Yeah. Like I'll drive off, off road and
stuff. I have a friend of mine. I won't say her
name, but she's sponsored by a car company that
I won't mention their name. And she's been known
to let me drive her fancy expensive vehicle off
road more than once. Because, yeah, like, I can
drive. I just, when there's nothing around for
me to hit. Yeah, okay. Yeah, if I drove on the
road, I would probably kill someone. So I don't
do that. Well, then you wouldn't know to turn,
so. Yeah. But, like, I mean, I have an ATV and
stuff that I started riding again. And I, yeah,
same thing. I just, like, follow a friend. And
once I've been on the trail a couple times, I
know it, I remember it. Yeah, I do everything
other than driving a car. I've learned how to,
like there's a saying of mine, it's instead of
saying I can't, say how can I? And that's like
a very powerful thing to me. Because early on
I was constantly saying I can't, I can't do this,
I can't do that. And my older sister, when she
said to me like, quit saying I can't, start saying
how can I? Yeah. And now I will always do that.
That's a good way of thinking about it. I was
also wondering, like going back to, I guess like
the para climbing or Paralympics, how much of
a difference do you feel when you're climbing
blindfolded versus with the site you currently
have? It's definitely way different as I already
shared. Falling is different. I mean, but once
I did that, I then learned that I need to like,
you know, be prepared. And like, believe it or
not, you can hear the wall. Like, you know, in
hockey, I can hear. where the boards are like
the echoing off of it and yeah i just wasn't
like i said i wasn't preparing myself at all
because i thought that i was just like gonna
because i think it was my second route the first
route i fell like a lot of it's overhung so you
just fall and then you just get lowered and you're
just in air but for some reason i i swung in
to the wall so moving forward i was then now
prepared and like it was actually like listening
for when the wall was coming so it's definitely
you need to practice more with your collar because
yeah like at least when i'm told okay next hold
grab it with your left hand and grab the top
of it i know like exactly kind of where to go
versus now i'm blindfolded it's just like you
know i have no idea they say like you know left
the 10 o 'clock well how far three feet six inches
So there's like a lot of like, it's more static
climbing, which we statically climb anyways,
but then you, you reach, you don't feel that
I have to like correct you. Like, you know, go
down, down and stop, go right, right, right.
Stop. So all those little micro movements, they
all add up to, to a lot at the end. So I think
that's maybe some of the beta that people don't
want exposed is I've heard of other callers that
have like the, the body's kind of broken up into
quadrants. And then within the quadrant, they'll
have, you know, a number system in there. So
if, you know, if this is quadrant number two,
it'd be like, you know, two, three would mean
like here. Interesting. So I feel like those
are the secrets that people don't want exposed
because they don't want other people to know
what they're using and then incorporate that
into their climbing. Okay. So like, I do understand
that aspect of it. It's kind of like, you know,
in football or something, people have these plays
written down and they're secret. Yeah, I guess
I could see that. Yeah. So, I mean, if that's
the edge that you need, then take it. But it's
definitely more difficult. But if they, I hope
that they allow us time. Like they're supposed
to tell us this summer, I think. which they always
are late with everything they tell us so maybe
next summer i'll know and then it'll give me
two years to to train okay well i hope that works
out yeah and then um going into a bit more of
like outdoor climbing you've done um i think
for a lot of people well i don't personally climb
outside much because i just why is that um well
it's like a lot of Effort, it's a lot more effort
than like climbing inside. I don't feel like
it's as efficient in terms of like getting better.
Yeah, the approach. I also just don't like dealing
with weather. So if it's like too hot or it's
too cold, it's just, I would rather not deal
with it. You had said about it's the effort and
getting better. So do you equate having fun rock
climbing with I have to climb this hard? Well,
because my goal is more like I have some like
competition goals. And so I want to work towards
those. And I feel like in terms of training,
it's like I could spend a whole day outside or
I could spend that day training. And then I also
get a chance to do like other non -climbing stuff
too. Do you find climbing in a gym fun all the
time? I really, I mean, it depends. I just, I
don't feel like I love climbing as much as a
lot of people do, which is weird to say with
someone with a climbing podcast and someone who
climbs all the time. But I mean, I find it like
very frustrating. And I sometimes find it hard
to like motivate myself to go and climb. I just
don't feel like I can say that I love it as much
as someone who is able to like motivate themselves
to go to the gym like six days a week. Like I
was kind of asking that because one of the things
that I need to work on is my endurance and power
endurance. So I look forward to say spending
a lot of time in the red like in Kentucky where
there's a lot of like overhung climbs because
sure it's not. comp climbing and it's not climbing
on plastic but the power and the endurance that
i'm going to gain from climbing outside there
and again i just have i have more fun personally
climbing outdoors um because like yeah like i
do like going to the gym and stuff but if i were
to pick gym climbing outdoor climbing it's like
hands down outdoor climbing Well, I guess for
a lot of people, or at least from what I hear,
they love an outdoor climb because of the way
the rock looks or because they think it looks
aesthetic or something like that. And I guess
that's not really something you can go off of.
So like what makes a great outdoor climb for
you? Like, is it like rock texture? The feel
of the rock. But even I do say that the people
look at a climb like, wow, it's so aesthetic.
I want to climb that line. I don't get that.
I do get to see like this big red rock, which
is in mountains. Like I live in South Washington,
Ontario. It's fairly flat here. So to just get
to like stand beside this epic, cause like I
can see that you don't have to have much vision.
You can have 1 % vision left and to tell there's
a mountain in front of you, you can see that.
So sure. I can't see the little details of it,
but like everywhere I go and I, I'm just like,
I want to go stand on top of that. And no idea
how I'm going to get there, but I can see this
big thing where like a gym climb, I, you know,
it's all the same. It's just, I don't know. Like,
so it's, it's not, so I do, the aesthetics do
please me. And then the nature and colors of
the leaves when they're changing. I just like
being out in nature. I think that's what it is.
It's quiet. The birds are chirping. I have to
communicate with people. Gyms are loud. For the
most part, especially if you go to some pretty
epic climbs, no one's there because the average
person doesn't want to put the effort in to get
there. I see. Especially if you're multi -pitching,
you're definitely not there with people. Anyone
who's there is a pretty serious climber at some
point. and you're not climbing beside someone
you know it's just free um i think it was all
just because i didn't do things like that and
and i think i was saying when i first lost my
sight i was like i'm not going to be able to
do anything and now it's just like i'm doing
shit i didn't even dream of doing beforehand
yeah that's that makes sense that's really awesome
i think just like the try hard aspect of like
sometimes the approach you hate it in the moment
yeah i do hate it yeah a lot Yeah, for some reason
I enjoy the Sufferfest sometimes. Okay. Like
in the moment, and it's always kind of training
for me, like because I'm a dual sport athlete,
for me, like if I'm like approaching and like
going up these, you know, big hard things, carrying
a heavy backpack, instead of like bitching and
complaining about it, in my mind I'm just like,
no, I'm making my legs stronger. I'm going to
skate harder. And I try to make everything I'm
doing training. It's kind of how I counter that.
in my brain even i can't drive so i i run everywhere
i go or i roller blade and you know there's times
that i'm like sick of it but i just remind myself
you know like i'm training right now i'm very
fortunate that just to get from point a to point
b i have to be training and i do want to like
ask a little bit about the blind hockey um since
i i don't know much about that do you feel like
playing hockey helps with climbing much Yeah.
In the sense of like, I might have to be like
very physically fit for both. Like people ask
like, how do you train for both? Um, and actually
I mostly like train climbing. It seems minus
like my cardio, like endurance that way. But
you're like me making my like hands and wrists
and stuff stronger. Just made my shot better.
Um, the one downfall would be like, Being heavier
and stronger in hockey is better because you
don't get like pushed around as much, which,
you know, there's this big thing in climbing
with like eating disorders and stuff like that
where I definitely do not have an eating disorder,
but there was times I was thinking, oh, like
I need to like quit hitting the gym so hard because
I'm like going to weigh too much. Like for your
legs, yeah. Yeah, because like when I get like
skating a lot, like, you know, you hold a lot
of weight in your legs. but also i've now been
learning to like use my legs more um and again
like we were talking about like me having these
like high level callers and like coaches i remember
like alana pointing out to me like you have like
strong legs like use them like you're coming
off the wall it's not because your legs are pumped
so if you can get into like a good spot with
your legs like sit on them and like until they're
like exhausted like if you can hold yourself
somewhere with your legs don't just you know
throw a knee bar in and hang out there for two
seconds because that's the move like stay there
like rest your arms as long as you can um so
I try to like use the legs to a benefit but I
guess for the most part though like hockey doesn't
necessarily improve my climbing I would say it
helps with the approaches on things I have to
be like pretty physically fit to play like high
level hockey so it definitely goes the opposite
way for not for the act of climbing but definitely
getting to and from climbing and having to carry
a bunch of heavy stuff yeah that's true all the
stuff that i avoid yeah do you ever climb outside
at all um i get convinced every once in a while
like people want me to go just because i never
go and then i go and i complain the whole time
and they're like okay yeah this is why i don't
go where are you going Like maybe it's really
hot or. I mean, sometimes I'm, yeah, my body
doesn't like adjust very well to temperatures.
So, I mean, sometimes I'm too hot. Sometimes
I'm too cold. But yeah, I've like, I used to
live in Vegas for years. So I, I did some climbing
there. I was in Washington climbing. So I've
been to a few spots out there. And right now
in San Diego, I've actually been out like once
or twice, but yeah, a little bit out here. And
you haven't found a spot you like, eh? No. I
mean, it's also just like the movement outside.
I'm more interested in like competition style
moves. Okay. And you don't find that as much
outside. I'm trying to think. I don't think you
really like doing laches on natural rock. Yeah.
Well, I'm actually really bad at laches. So not
that, but you know, just other stuff. Maybe you'll
have to try to find, I guess you probably wouldn't.
like the whole like adventuring around to try
to like find new developments yeah i mean it's
not for everyone yeah and it's it's fine i don't
need to climb outside outside people don't need
to climb inside and i i guess that's where the
name of your podcast comes in that's not real
climbing because i'm sure it's especially like
the old school you know trad daddy type people
are just like sport climbing is not climbing
and Indoor climbing definitely is not climbing.
Yeah. I knew Alex Honnold, I heard in an interview
talking about, he was saying that he could then,
he's one of very few people that could say to
someone like, well, like what you're doing is
not real climbing. Real climbing is technically
a climbing barefoot with no chalk. That is real
climbing. He's like, where are we drawing this
limit? And like, if you want to climb top rope
inside at a gym, that is raw climbing. So, you
know, get off your high horse. Yeah. Free soloing
is the only real, it's the only real climbing.
Yeah. I mean, it depends on where you want to
look at it. Like, are you moving off the ground?
Are you using your body? Are you climbing? I
don't know. What's the definition of climbing?
You know, I remember the first time I ice climbed,
I'd posted a video of it or something and someone
had commented because I was top roping and they
were chirping me that I wasn't climbing. And
I'd be like, what are you talking about? Like.
Oh, okay. I'm sorry that I'm not lead climbing
my first time blind ice climbing. My bad. And
I realized like, you know, why am I getting upset
at some idiot who is on his fucking keyboard
typing away? Like I, I climbed, I don't care
what you want to say. I did. And it was great.
That's really cool. How'd you like ice climbing?
Loved it. I thought it was going to be really
hard. like not physically like yes it is but
i thought it was going to be hard trying to pick
in but complete opposite it was awesome i didn't
have to try to find a little foot i want my foot
to go here i just kick it there um true you don't
feel like look for a foothold or a handhold you
just like well i want my axe here and not every
time but like if it didn't go in and it would
like kind of like bounce i would just like drag
the ice or the axle on the ice and i could kind
of feel how it was shaped and be like oh i'm
gonna put it there and the learning curve wasn't
as hard as i thought it was going to be it uh
because yeah no one gave me any tips on it and
i plan to do a bunch of like ice climbing at
some point also i feel the days i went i've been
a few times now and it's what they call like
hero ice so maybe i won't enjoy it as much hero
ice meaning it was pretty i think the one day
i was even climbing in a t -shirt it was like
maybe like zero degrees like negative two or
something so the ice is hard hard enough to hold
you but it's pretty soft i guess if it's super
hard it like chips away more it's maybe harder
to get into um so maybe i just haven't experienced
bad um environments yeah that makes sense but
i'm still one of my goals in life is to i want
to like do something where i need to like backcountry
ski leading to some ice climb and then get on
top of something to then ski off the top of it
um and kind of put where again people might be
like that's crazy or like not because like that
sounds like a suffer fest like that would be
cool Yeah, I think it would be a bit of a sufferfest,
but it would be very enjoyable. Yeah, I just
like doing things like that that aren't the norm
for a blind person. I mean, in general, it would
be cool to combine all of your interests. Yeah,
I think I also just like pushing the envelope
of what we are quote -unquote allowed or supposed
to be doing. Because I guess I myself was very...
down on myself thinking i'm not going to be able
to do anything like a lot of that stem from you
know like growing up i was like looked up to
my father and stuff and i was like great now
my kids are never going to look up to me i'm
just going to be this blind guy who can't do
anything and you know my kids are never going
to think i'm a superhero or nothing where it's
actually like the complete opposite um my son
they did like in school they do a project i'm
like a canadian or something and he he did it
on me and like he found a photo of me on google
because it was like a research party they'd like
research some like canadian and he then like
did me like the one photo i'm like bouldering
and i'm like hanging upside down or something
and he's like some of his friends were like well
like your dad looks like spider -man and i was
like oh like it's like here like i'm getting
referred to as a superhero so i It was kind of
neat to go from thinking I'm never going to be
that. And I do things that sighted dads don't
do. It's not that they're not physically capable
of doing it. They just don't. So yeah, I get
to do a lot of really cool shit. Yeah, absolutely.
I think you must be stronger than most people
out there doing a lot of cool stuff. Oh, even
today at the gym, I was like moving this plate
off of a thing. Yeah. And it's like. super jacked
dude come over and he's like well how did you
lift those off there he's like i have to shim
them because he can't get his fingers behind
the plates to like lift them off like just because
they stack flat and you know i just like grabbed
it and lifted it i didn't think twice about it
but the fact that he came over to ask me i was
like oh my i'm a rock climber i guess maybe my
fingers are stronger yeah and he's like well
he's like i just i saw you just grab it and he's
just like I can't do that. And I'm like, this
guy's just massive. I'm just thinking like, it's
not that hard, but I guess he's not training
his fingers at all. He's got to be able to figure
out a way to do it. Well, he told me his beta.
How can you do it? Yeah, exactly. He's like,
I put little two pound plates in between each
45. He's like, that way my fingers can get behind
it. Okay. So he shared with me his how can I.
Yeah. Even though I don't need to know it, but
it's good to know. I'm happy we got to have that
conversation. You mentioned blind hockey. I figured
you haven't heard about that. So I brought with
me a, I want to show a blind hockey puck. Oh,
okay. So this is a traditional blind hockey puck.
It's normally black. This is a training one.
So that's why it's red. Oh, you might want to
show it a little higher. Can you see it there?
Yeah, that works. Okay. So then it's way bigger,
but then they're annoying. So I keep a magnet
on it if I'm not using it. because it make noise
the dog thinks it's a toy so we need we track
the puck by listening to it and even when i first
started playing i you know if a puck was getting
passed to me i would miss it because i hadn't
learned how to listen to something traveling
towards me to then figure out where it's going
to end up and now like at very high speed you
know I'll be clapping one -timers and shit if
they're getting fed to me. It's really crazy,
amazing to see what people are capable of doing
if you practice enough. One little adaptation
is the puck that's bigger. It does move a little
slower, but it's the noise it makes. Just the
way we communicate with each other on a much
higher level. We're now capable of playing really
high -level hockey. it was very shocking to me
when I was able to they said my first instinct
was this is going to be a joke because I'd only
been blind for like maybe a month I hadn't learned
because like basically when I when you look at
something you're looking straight at it but now
for me like when I'm looking straight at something
that's when I don't see it so if I'm like looking
my eyes are facing this way I'm actually like
looking at you right now and I said like relearn
To anything I'm looking at. I'm not actually
like looking at. I'm looking at something else.
So it was like. Adapting to that. And I was like
very fortunate. Like one of. A big experience
of mine was. I was climbing in Joshua Tree. With
some friends. And every day afterwards. They
would be playing hacky sack in the parking lot.
Or at our campsite. And I'd always make up an
excuse not to play. And. Basically, I was still
drinking back then. I would basically go and
get in the van. I would like drink my sorrows
away. I was just like, oh, I'm such a piece of
shit. I can't even hit a hacky sack anymore.
And finally, my friend Rob one day called me
out on it. He's like, I know you don't have to
go do that. He's like, why every day do you make
up this excuse? And I was like, Rob, I can't
see the hacky sack. I'm not going to ruin your
rally. He's like, dude, we're playing hacky sack.
Like, we don't care. Basically, it's an excuse
to stand around and shoot the shit and kick around
a little bag. So then I came over and I started
playing and I was like missing it and missing
it, missing it. And then eventually like, and
again, these guys were like being encouraging,
like, oh, you almost got it that time and being
very inclusive. And then all of a sudden I remember
like I hit it the one time. And again, they're
not like firing at me. They're like lobbing it,
hoping that I can maybe hit it. And when I finally
hit it. I remember I started crying. I broke
down out of excitement. I was like, do you guys
see that? I meant to do that. I remember being
like, holy shit, I can do this. I just need to
look here and the bag's coming here. And then
it allowed me to have the confidence in myself
that I can do these things. I just need to learn
how to. I feel like they discredit a lot of the
effort that I've put into being able to do certain
things. And it's also, I think, why I spend a
lot of time helping the blind youth. I volunteer
with the blind youth as often as I can because
basically I remember being a kid and most kids
are assholes. And if there's a blind kid that
wants to play hacky sack and he's missing it,
he's probably going to get made fun of. Where
the experience I had as a grown adult with other
grown adults, they're like hyping me up. oh you
almost got it and saying all these things and
you know gently passing the hacky sack to me
where the kid that is 10 years old that can't
see it kids are probably firing at him and he's
missing it and they're like see you know you
can't do it and that kid's probably now going
to like migrate into his basement and probably
become you know dependent on some form of substance
because his childhood traumas from being blind
led him to having to drink or something and yeah
and like the belief that you aren't able to do
it yeah and it's like no one told me that but
yet i was telling myself that um and i feel like
little kids probably actually hear that and and
it's awful so i try to you know even like little
tips like squirting toothpaste in my mouth um
you know i like to teach kids. I have little
tricks on everything I do. So if I can share
those with them, then that'll hopefully make
their life go a lot smoother. It's like less
barriers for them to they already have enough
hurdles to jump over. If I can help get them
there, then that's a good thing. And also just
trying to grow blind sports in Canada. Adaptive
sports are you know lacking a lot here like blind
hockey as a charity does a really great job um
incorporating you know blind youth like at the
beginning i was i got a little emotional talking
about my friend mark who he lost his sight he
has the same disease as me he was like on his
way to making it into like the nhl loses sight
at 17 and his life is just like stripped from
him and then he learned about blind hockey And
it was like mostly adults. And he got asking
if kids play. I'm like, no, there's no kid programs.
And he was like, wow, like my whole life was
spent playing hockey. All my best friends I got
from hockey. And it can be with any sport, but
blind kids don't have these sports to play. So
he rollerbladed across Canada to try to raise
money and awareness for blind hockey. And now,
like two weeks from now, I'm helping run a multi
-sport camp in Toronto. There's going to be 50
kids there and they're going to get the rock
climb. Oh, that'll be great. And play four other
sports. You know, I get to take kids climbing,
like, quite, you know, a few times a year type
of thing. And they, not just them, even their
parents get to see, like, you know, Mark and
I and a couple other guys who, like, live normal
lives and were, like, confident growing adults.
And it gives them faith that their kid can also
be something and hold their head high. And you,
like, take them outside as well? i've yet to
take any kids outdoor climbing um that will happen
eventually though i'm uh i'm in the works of
like trying to get some things going like i can
only be in so many places at once and also like
i can't call so like i'll like climb on routes
beside kids which is maybe harder outside and
mostly like where we go in toronto And the climbs
are like the hardest ones, like a five, 10. So
I'll just like, I don't clip in the guys that
run it. Don't really say anything to me. And
I just, the kids having a hard time. I was like,
screw you up beside them and, you know, give
them some motivation or I'll like tap on the
holds or something. So they can like hear where
to move their hand to. Some of them now are getting
strong enough that they can for sure climb outside.
and hopefully this summer we can make that happen
and i do want to get into a couple of like the
audience submitted questions um through like
discord or instagram um so the first one how
long does it take to get in sync with your caller
depending who they are i suppose um again like
when i have like a high like i'll keep referencing
like jazz and atlanta when they say something
like i believe what they're saying to be true
i mean in saying that there's times that I will
go to do something and it'd be like, I can't
do that. Um, cause I think that they forget that
I'm not as strong as they are. Okay. Um, so like,
there's something like, you know, grab that jug
there. I'm just like, this isn't a jug. And like,
I can't hold this. Um, I need new beta. Um, so
it's not too bad as long as I just believe in
truck. It's yeah. It's a trust thing. As long
as I'm trusting them. Cause there is times I'll
be like, all right, now do this. And it's like,
oh, that doesn't feel right, but like, okay.
And then I'll do it. And it's like, holy shit,
like, why was I doubting you? So yeah, it is
a bit of a learning curve, but not too long.
Okay. Next question about speed climbing. Since
speed climbing is a standardized route, would
it work well for blind people? It would. Me and
Diego, he's one of the American blind climbers.
We want to challenge each other to a speed climbing
race. Have you done it? I've only, I have speed
climbed. I wouldn't, I don't even want to call
it that because I climbed the speed climbing
route. Right. It was not very speedy. No. Same
for me. Yeah. But it could be, because like you
said, like it's the same thing. And if I repeated
it, I would learn it like fairly quickly. I'm
not near a speed climbing. There's only a few
walls in Canada. But yeah, I totally would love
to do that. And any other blind people out there
in other countries that want to challenge me
to a speed climbing off. Because I thought it'd
be neat to do that at one of the World Cups.
And Diego and I talked about doing it in Salt
Lake City when they had the speed climbing. They
were like, oh, let's race each other just for
fun. For one, just to show people like, you know,
just because you're blind doesn't mean you can't
speed climb. Obviously, I'm going to do it in
like 10 minutes. Yeah. Do you remember your time?
No, I don't think I even time myself. I was in
like Switzerland or Austria or something like
that. And my friend was like, oh, it was a speed
climbing route there. So I just wanted to like
touch the holds. They were harder. They weren't
as positive as I was expecting. I thought it
was just like a jug hold. yeah no i think it's
maybe like a i don't know if you graded it as
like a top rope route maybe like a five five
ten i think i heard that it's like a 10 10 c
or something um which and i don't even know who
told me that it could be made up but it's definitely
i also feel like i heard that so yeah maybe it
definitely is not you know just a 5 -8 jug haul
the way they fly up that wall i was like oh this
clearly must be they're just like nope it uh
yeah it definitely was not fast but so i've competed
a few times in seca block which is like the deep
water soloing yeah cool and they time us there
and it's crazy to see so the first time i climb
the route because i don't do it with a collar
so i'll climb it like there was a lot of times
i'll grab a hole and like feel around for where
the best part is or like oh i sequenced that
wrong you know now i gotta like match or switch
or something And you know, like the first time
I'll do it, it'll take me like two minutes and
then it'll be a minute 30. Then it'll be 50 seconds,
then 30 seconds type of thing. Like I shave like
so much time off every time just because the
first, I'm not going to just dino and like cut
feet and start throwing the shit when I have
no idea what it is. But every time I climb it,
I go way faster. So it would do, it would be
the same for the speed climbing. But I wouldn't
even come close to what the men and women do
internationally. Well, maybe eventually if you
did it so many times. I mean, I don't know. The
speeds that they're putting up these days blow
my mind. Yeah, okay, that's true. I mean, I guess
I got to quit saying I can't. How can I get to
their speed? Well, because I've seen videos.
I think I saw Sam Watson doing blind speed climbing
as an exercise. uh because i mean i guess eventually
you do learn it so well that you should just
kind of know without being able to see from what
i understand like they're not looking at their
feet and something like that like they're it's
all muscle memory right so yeah all muscle memory
and uh that's interesting i did not know that
that he or other climbers uh climbed blindfolded
for speed but but it makes sense that is an exercise
yeah I've even seen it for like bouldering. I
think not as much. I think I saw like one time
in a gym, the comp kids were doing like a blindfolded
exercise. I don't know what it helps with bouldering
as much. I don't know what the exercise is for.
Maybe just like trust or I don't know, power
endurance, like moving slower. I'm not sure.
Yeah, lock off strength. Yeah. I've definitely
heard of that happening as well. I've even actually,
I've been at the gym where Atlanta and I were
at the gym and then people came over and they
thought that we were like both pro climbers.
And we were, that's how a pro climber trains
is you, you do their beta or something. So I
came down and I could hear her like talking to
someone through the mic. And then she's like,
no, like he's blind. And I'm like telling him
like, two ladies were like oh like we just thought
that's how you like became so good is that you
guys called for each other and that way you had
to like move slower and like wait for them to
tell you this you try this different technique
and she's like no like you just can't see what
he's doing um but yeah they could the blind kids
are not blankets other people i've seen doing
it for kids and stuff and i think it's just building
endurance because you have to wait You know,
so I think there's some training would be like
climbing like every hole is like wait three seconds
hovering over it before you can grab it. So you're
basically doing something similar to that. So
yeah, it's pretty fun though. You should try
blindfold climbing sometime. I would try it out
on rope maybe. I would be interested in that.
Yeah, bouldering is definitely, like I said,
sketchier. I helped Justin Salas run like a blind
climbing clinic. in salt lake city at the bouldering
project and it was funny watching people having
their their friends call for them and they'd
be like a six inches or a foot off the pad and
they're like okay now like let go like you can't
down climb anymore and they'd be like ah and
then they'd jump and they like they would land
and they're like holy like they were scared even
though their friends telling them like dude you're
you're six inches from the mat just let go but
they have no concept of where you are in space
So it was kind of funny and neat getting to experience
other people experiencing what we kind of go
through all the time. Yeah, it's impressive for
sure. But I think that brings me into the last
question. Someone asked thoughts on new disciplines
for para climbing. Some para climbers train in
only boulder gyms because they're more accessible
and there's so many more of them. Do you think
that there would be like more paraclimbers who
would want to compete in bouldering? No, because
yes and no. The biggest thing is, is like the
injury factor. So for me, I can't see where the
mat is. I mean, I would still compete in bouldering.
And I really hope that they can do that sometime.
There actually was a bouldering comp last year
in Colorado for paraclimbers. And I had my surgery,
so I couldn't attend it. But for other climbers
that say have spina bifida or something like
that, and you now are coming off and you can't
control your legs. We kind of experimented with
this with Sequel Block. Some climbers that are
now falling 60 feet, they don't have the leg
strength to keep their legs from like... going
like this and if you hit the water you're doing
the splits it's gonna like rip your leg out of
the socket oh geez um or someone who has a spinal
cord injury and their back is safe fused together
you know the impact of hitting a mat hard could
dislodge that or so i mean i know like lag amputees
hand amputees pretty well climb in boulder but
even then if you're I wouldn't say anything for
a hand amputee, but if you're a lag amputee and,
you know, hit the mat and, you know, your prosthetic
lands weird or hard, or even if you say climb
without a prosthetic, when you land now on one
lag, you don't have to absorb all that shock
with one knee. So it's just like, I've seen some
gyms put up top ropes on their boulders just
to make it more inclusive. But then that's kind
of sometimes in the way. So it'd be tough. It
kind of have to be sign a waiver and for sure.
Cause a lot of us want to do it. Um, cause you
know, bouldering is, there's way different climbs
like then some rope climbs. So anyway, I think
a lot of us just like pushing the envelope and
be like, you know, I can do this. Um, and this
is just how I, how I do it differently and kind
of want to show off their abilities. Like my
buddy Justin, like he climbs. you know, double
-digit V -boulders, like, quite frequently. You
know, there's other lag amputees I have friends
that, you know, climb double -digit V -grade.
Wow, yeah. With, you know, like, missing a lag.
Wow. Man, I suck. They've just put the effort
in. Like, it's not that, like, when I say it,
it's not like, oh, that guy's just a naturally
talented athlete or he's naturally gifted at
climbing. No, like, that man's put in the work.
Yeah. I'm saying I did not put in the work. Yeah.
It's, it's tough to get motivated to go to the
gym and like your body's sore all the time and,
and stuff like that. So, and a lot of like para
athletes have to work, I'm going to say twice
as hard, but put a lot more effort in to, and
maybe not for everyone, but like, I'm sure a
lot of able -bodied people have a lot of struggles
as well. Like say for me, it's getting to and
from the gym is hard. Not everyone has a car.
So like someone else has to also take a bus or
walk there. So I'm not saying that other people
don't equally have the same problem sometimes,
but on average, a paraclimber has to experience
a lot more barriers than someone else. So I think
that's why we want to show like we are capable
of doing these things, you know, give us the
time. But also because there's so few of us,
it's very expensive for... a gym to shut down
and hold up a comp if there's only going to be
six people show up type of thing but you need
to start somewhere because otherwise how's anyone
like jazz and i were just skiing the other day
and we saw this man on a a sit ski he's on the
chairlift with me so i was like hey man do you
do rock climb he's like no i can't rock climb
and again like when people say the whole like
i can't things i always have to fire back at
them. And he gave me a few excuses as to why
he can't do it. And eventually he was like, all
right, yeah, you're right. Like, I just haven't
tried it yet. And I hope he does, but he had
never heard of it. And I was like, well, it's
because, you know, we only had our first nationals
two weeks ago. And this guy lives in Montreal
where there's a pretty big pair climbing scene.
But by that there's like eight people, but like,
that's a big scene. Like. You know, you go to
any other big city, there's not many. But if
there was more comps and more adaptive programs
and stuff like that, more people would get involved.
It would continue to grow. If you go to the States
or other countries, you know, like the U .S.
Nationals, I didn't see a number this past weekend,
but I think last year there was 250 athletes
there. And you compare that to Canada where there's,
I think last year nine of us competed. But their
first nationals, I think they had 10 people.
Yeah, it just takes time. Yeah, our first nationals,
we had 30. But again, a gym has to be willing
to shut down, pay its root setters to set this
comp for a week. It's a big, there's no money
in it. So someone has to kind of take the loss.
to build the space for us. So I think we're all
very appreciative of the people that do this
for us. Yeah. Well, I hope this at least helps
get the word out there. Yeah. I hope so as well.
Well, I think that is all the questions I had
for today. Um, is there any like last minute
words of wisdom you want to get out there? Words
of wisdom. Um, yeah, don't say I can't say how
can I, um, no, and I guess, uh, I don't know,
be inclusive to people with disabilities. And
as in don't judge people in the sense of, you
know, like when someone starts climbing for the
first time, they're not going to be good at it.
But if you give them an opportunity to learn,
they're also going to become very good at it.
I think a lot of people might see a pair climber
climb for the first time and be like, oh, like
I don't want to climb with that person because
they're not at my level. But if everyone's told
that they're never going to get to your level.
So, and a lot of people don't have that intrinsic
motivation, especially that's kind of why I was
asking, how does the average person get into
rock climbing and stay at it? Because if you
go to this adaptive meetup, you see a few other
adaptive climbers there, but they're already
like crushing it. You're just like, well, I can't
do that. But they're kind of discrediting and
forgetting the fact that this person also started
here. And it takes time to build up to here,
but you need climbing partners to allow you to
build that. So yeah, I just, I hope that people
that are listening to this can, can learn to
incorporate or invite people out to the climbing
meetups. So like they're into their gym and give
them a catch and let them learn how to belay.
And eventually you can build that partnership
and, you know, you'll have another climbing partner.
Awesome. Okay, great words to end on. Well, thanks
for having me on here. Yeah, yeah. Thank you
so much for joining me. Do you want to let people
know where they can find you if they want to
hear more about your story? Yeah, my handle on
Instagram and other platforms is The Blind Explorer.
Yeah, I will add that to the description. Awesome.
Thank you again. And it was amazing to talk to
you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for making
it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to
like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise,
you are a super big climber. If you're listening
on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you
rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion
on the free competition climbing discord linked
in the description. Thanks again for listening.