for me education doesn't need to be for free
a route setter he makes his living out of it
it's a profession so if you follow a professional
education you can pay for it it doesn't need
to be a hyper expensive neither our own events
the world championship and then the world cups
how do you give them value the easy answer is
the prize money There was some controversy about
it, clearly. Now, this year, the NEOM games aren't
on the schedule anymore. At World Cup level,
there has been tests done. I think 300 tests
last year. There has been talks with specific
athletes that are getting into the danger zone,
but not there yet. Welcome to another episode
of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm
your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce
my guest for today, Tijl Sumitz. Tijl is currently
the IFSC Europe president, but is now running
for the president of IFSC with elections taking
place in April. In this episode, we'll learn
about how IFSC politics works, hear about the
changes he wants to make within the IFSC, and
get his take on some hot topic issues like National
Federation quotas, red -ice testing, and the
NEOM Games. I really appreciate him being willing
to answer some difficult questions. So I hope
you enjoy this episode with Tijl. Real quick,
I'm excited to announce my new sponsor helping
make this podcast episode possible, Mad Rock
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entire Mad Rock order. Info will be in the description.
Back to the show. So yeah, let's just get right
into a little bit of your history um some easy
questions before we get into like the hot button
issues okay um so how did you start um climbing
and for those who don't know you what do you
do for the ifsc so um i started climbing being
little i always loved climbing in trees and i
watched uh sometimes when we were visiting south
of france we were with my parents in the verdon
valley and we saw climbers on on the on the walls
and it was impressive for me and then we went
hiking in the mountains in Austria and I really
love pictures of people climbing free climbing
in the 80s style with the pink pants and etc
so I was quite impressed by that and in the end
only when I was 18 years old I managed to start
climbing in an indoor gym and I was immediately
hooked up I wanted to climb three times a week
and Yeah, it was really a new passion I discovered.
And soon I also discovered climbing on the rocks,
which was even more my thing. Apparently, I really
love being outdoors and then climbing. So that's
the way how I started from trees to walls to
the rocks. And then since I was studying sports
education, I was really motivated with some people
in the climbing gym to somehow share the passion
and to allow kids to start climbing. So we quite
soon. Launched a club. I climbed merely one year
when we started with some friends. A club for
small kids to educate them in the climbing. Since
it aligned with my studies as well. So that's
how I started somehow in the climbing business
as well. As a volunteer though, not as a business.
Right, yes. That's how I started climbing. And
how did I end up in the IFSC? Well, during sports
education, I managed to become... coach of the
Belgian climbing team when being on international
competitions at the world championships in Indonesia
no in Singapore sorry in 2012 there was a rule
that said that if there was a tight spot at the
gold medal place then based upon the speed of
climbing in the finals of the lead that would
be defined who is the winner and between all
coaches we cut like oh this is not raw this is
wrong it should not be based on time because
it is lead climbing not speed climbing so at
that point with all the coaches we decided to
send an email to the ifsc complaining and asking
like can this rule be changed and by the way
don't we need a coach's representative in the
ifsc Okay, at the IFC level, we didn't manage
to get a coach's representative for the youth
events at that moment, but we did get in the
IFC Europe Sport Commission and I was lucky to
be chosen as the coach's representative. At the
same time, I started a full -time position inside
the Belgian Federation as sports director and
they decided to send me to the General Assemblies
as National Federation's delegate. And so that
way I rolled into it. I liked it. I like to bring
opinions of people together and to make sure
that we all had our say and that the general
opinion was respected. And so in 2021, the National
Federations of Europe decided to elect me as
their president for IOC Europe. which also brought
me into the IVC board. So the last four years,
I have been part of the IVC board as Europe representative,
and I have been IVC Europe president, thanks
to the trust that the National Federations gave
me. I don't know if I knew that you were the
Belgian coach. How long were you doing that for?
Oh, I think my first year coaching or my first
competition was in 2007, was my first taste.
I could go to Kranj, to the youth cup that we
had, the European Youth Cup organized in Kranj,
in Slovenia, back in the old days. And then from
the year after, I was full -time coaching the
youth team. and so yeah from 2007 or 8 rather
till 2019 I was actively coaching and 2020 corona
there was no coaching 2021 2022 I still had to
do some I had to fill in some holes where we
didn't have other coaches available but I was
already less coaching because in the end there
is a possible conflict of interest between being
the president of IBC Europe and being a coach
So I was more in the background, allowing a bit
more the logistic side and not actively appealing
or those things, but I was still helping a bit.
So yeah, roughly 15 years, but maybe a bit less.
Yeah, that's a long time. How did you like coaching?
Oh, I loved coaching a lot. Sometimes I still
miss it in the end. I love a lot to climb myself,
but I love also to show people that they can.
be stronger than they thought they could be or
that they can surpass themselves and somehow
guide them in the process to discover how to
use their body and how to put goals and to go
for new goals. So I really like to work with
kids mostly, but I also coached adults for a
long time. That was my way of earning my money.
I was in the end, before I started working for
the Belgian Federation, I was... an independent
climbing coach working as a volunteer for the
youth team in in my city and as a professional
for seniors for not for seniors for adults infected
as well debutants beginners as as experts so
yeah i love to to teach people how to climb but
then since i got more and more involved in in
the management of sports climbing in the end
at a certain time i could not combine both anymore
also if you coach people you need to have trust
and if you manage a team somehow you also decide
who gets money who doesn't get money so people
maybe don't can they are not able to tell you
the full truth anymore at all moments somehow
because if you tell to the one who's giving the
money that you're injured maybe you get less
money or there is the fear of not getting selected
and those things and also just on my own side
as well I didn't have time anymore for coaching
really seriously, being fully focused on the
performance of the athletes. And in the end,
the athlete deserves a coach who is fully focused
on them and who doesn't need to take care of
the overall management of the federation. So
it was a choice, but I still miss it sometimes,
definitely. Yeah, yeah, no, that definitely makes
sense. I mean, do you still do any professional
adult coaching, since that's not really... There's
no conflict of interest there? There is no conflict
of interest. There is a conflict of schedule.
So I even stopped coaching adults sooner than
I stopped coaching youth. The passion really
is to help young people to grow. And I didn't
need it that much anymore for the money side
because I had a full -time job already at that
time. So I stopped with adult coaching in 2015,
I think. But I continued with the youth later
on. But yeah, of course, if there's friends of
mine who start climbing now or that want some
advice, I happily give advice. And I tend maybe
even to give too much advice because I still
have the coaching habit in me. When I go climbing
with friends, I need to slow down a bit in my
tips to them because sometimes it should be for
fun and not for training also. Right, sure. Do
you have like a number one tip or like mindset
for... for coaching that you want to get out
there oh on the technical side i definitely like
one exercise for each and every level of climber
it maybe sounds stupid but a beginner if you
tell them to to climb in silence where you don't
hear the feet on the on the footholds that's
a good one but in the end even even a strong
climber if he focuses once in a while on being
silent with the feet It's a good thing to focus
once more on the specific analytical part of
climbing. It's my favorite exercise for all beginners
and even intermediate level. That's for sure.
And then, yeah, the one big thing is enjoy what
you do and see the things that give you pure
joy and don't start doing things because you
think that you have to do them. Joy is most important,
I think. Awesome. OK, so going back to, I guess,
the logistical IFSC side of things. So you are
running for IFSC president. How does this process
work? OK, so every four years there is elections
in the IFSC. For the full board, unless you take,
you don't need to take into account the athletes
representatives because they are elected by the
athletes during the world championships. Every
two years, there is the half of the election
of the athletes commission that is elected. So
that's a separate election process, but all the
board members, vice presidents and president
position, they get elected every four years.
And indeed this year, some of the board members
are not allowed to represent themselves again.
However, Marcos Colaris, he asked for an exception
because of all the merit he brought to this project
and because there still might be the need to
continue with him as president. So he can represent
himself this year. But of course, other candidates
can appear as well. And I am one of the other
candidates. I don't know if there will be others
for the president's position. In the end, we
only... confirmed our candidacies this week with
the IFSC and they still go through the nomination
committee with all the candidates and then this
needs to be confirmed towards all national federations.
So all those board positions can have candidates
and the nomination committee decides if the candidates
are eligible or not. And so the different board
positions are president, vice president or continental
representative. That's a bit the different positions
that are going for elections every four years.
Okay, so he's not like necessarily stepping down.
This is just something that happens every four
years. Every four years there is elections and
there can be candidates, as many candidates as
there are people interested to do so. I think
this year there will be many candidates because,
yeah, it's been a long time. that the IABC is
growing. We are Olympic now. There is some board
members that cannot stand again for being part
of the board. So there is vacant positions in
any case. And there is some interest, I think.
So we will have interesting elections and hopefully
we will have a, we will for sure have an interesting
team of board members starting from April onwards.
And you don't know who like any of the other
candidates are at the moment? We have, of course,
the rumors circulating and some people that are
saying it's allowed. So for president, maybe
there is only two persons, Marcos Colaris and
me. But then for vice president, so there is
four vice presidents, I think, I believe, on
the female vice president side. So there is two
positions. It should be female and two positions
which are male. I believe on the female side,
there is two candidates. On the male side, there
might be four or five candidates. So it's going
to be a tough competition there with all valuable
candidates. So the national federations will
have hard choices also on that level. And now
for the continental representatives, I believe
that in the different continents, there have
been some talks, but still, I think also there,
there might be multiple candidates for each continent.
So it's going to be interesting elections for
sure. And I guess, sorry if this is a basic question,
but like who's voting for this or like who decides?
Good question. Definitely a good question. So
all the national federations of the IFSC have
a vote. It's one vote per national federation.
I think we have 101 national federations nowadays,
which we're still growing. So sometimes it's
and some change. So I think the count now is
101 national federations that can vote during
the General Assembly, which happens in Cyprus.
And there is three options for voting. So or
you are there in person, or you can participate
online with online voting, or you can even give
a procuration, a proxy vote to another national
federation. So the democratic process is quite
wide, I would say. Participation is highly encouraged,
I would say. Okay, great. Okay, so then going
into some of the things that... I guess things
that you might want to change or problems that
you would want to work on. What things are the
IFSC focused on right now that you don't think
are as important or that they don't need to be
as focused on? It's a tricky question you ask,
because I don't think that the focuses that are
existing now are not as important. Because, for
example, the main focus of the last 17 years
was being part of the Olympic Games. And that
stays, of course, a very important point for
the future as well. But we managed to be in the
Olympic Games up till now, two times already.
We are confirmed for Los Angeles also as a program
sport. So I think we've shown our value in the
Olympic Games. We are part of the Olympic family
now. So that's somehow achieved. And I think
indeed that over the last 70 years, there have
been a strong operational focus. And also at
board level, we have been focused on delivering
these Olympic Games. And that has been good.
But now that we're in there, I think we need
to step up to the next level. And it is important
now that we somehow shift from being operationally
focused to having real long -term strategy to
work broadly, more widely. definitely having
a development focus where we help all national
federations to grow. Because in the end, the
Olympic Games, it's a very good goal to have,
but only roughly 20 national federations manage
to participate in the Olympic Games because we
have limited medals, we have limited quota places.
So all the 81 other national federations, so
to say, they don't get necessarily the push from
their National Olympic Committee. They don't
get the recognition or it is more difficult to
get that recognition. It's more difficult to
develop. You cannot say we have an Olympian,
so please sponsors come and help us. No, they
still need to get to the level of the Olympic
Games. So I believe that... Having an Olympic
focus for the future, it is still needed, even
a Paralympic focus, because we are part of the
Paralympic Games now as well. But on the other
side, there should be a huge focus on development
and making sure that we all grow globally. All
continents, all national federations get the
chance to develop furthermore. I think that's
the main focus for the future, the development
of the national federations. We'll definitely
get into like the development portion a little
bit later. I guess just real quick about the
Olympic Games. As a program sport, does that
mean that we still might like get kicked out
in the future? Or does that mean we're like forever
in the Olympics? In the past, we would say, yeah,
once you're a program sport, you're in the Olympics
forever. However, it is changing more and more.
I think the phrase they use nowadays is the sliding
doors. So it might happen that you stay in, it
might happen that you get kicked out, but it
depends a bit on the value you have. So indeed,
we have been invitational sports in Tokyo and
in Paris. It's in the end, Tokyo will choose
to invite us. Firstly, Paris confirmed that invitation
as well. For Los Angeles, the IOC decided to
include us in the full program, but for Brisbane,
this confirmation has not been given yet. Of
course, since we are now a program sport, we
somehow hope that this means that somehow there
is a confirmation at least for two, three editions
in a row, but we don't have that confirmation
and we still need to show that we are. there
and that we we deserve to be there so we still
have an operational challenge there to really
deliver good games definitely okay so then going
forward um what kind of changes do you want to
make or what do you feel like you're most um
focused on so as as mentioned already before
i think development is the main one so going
from Only the operational focus getting to development.
And I think within development, the most obvious
way to push development is by education. Up till
now, IFSC has been focused on education programs
for root setters and for judges and quite specifically
on the needs that they have for the events or
that we as IFSC, I mean, have for the events
that we organize ourselves. So mainly the World
Cups and also the Continental event. But in the
end, I think that we need to push route setting
and judging also at the global level for all
national federations. We need to make sure that
all national federations get the experience from
the international level, at least brought to
them. So every national federation should get
the opportunity to have someone who learns at
least the highest level of route setting or learns
the highest level of judging and can bring that
experience and that knowledge to there. country
and make sure that it gets educated there as
well. But it's not only about route setters and
about judges. It's also about coaches teaching
the athletes in how to develop themselves, teaching
the administrators in how we can market our sport,
how we can grow our sport, how we make sure that
we do good safeguarding of all people involved.
Not only the athletes need safeguarding, everyone
involved somehow needs to be taken care of. So
it's really about a lot of different educational
programs that we could launch. I also think,
for example, of the belayers for lead climbing
is really important that you have certified belayers
that really know how to belay in a good way.
All those kinds of educational programs might
be very useful for the future. So yeah, I think
that's the main focus. And then secondly, I think
also that... For the IFSC and in the end for
every organization in the world probably, sustainability
should be a big one. And if I speak of sustainability,
I don't only talk about the environmental part
because people tend to say like, oh, sustainability,
yeah, but it's all about nature. And in the end,
there is other things that are more important
for a sports organization. But I believe that
sustainability, it's about economic, it's about
social and environmental sustainability. And
for economic, it means that you create the good.
economic environment for the sport to flourish.
So you make sure that there is a structure behind
that grows and that somehow makes it possible
to finance ourselves in a better way. So by an
event model, which has indeed the World Championship
and the World Cups as main events and the Olympic
Games above all that. But of course, then you
also need to have the continental level. You
need to have a regional level. You need to facilitate
somehow even the development of national events,
et cetera, et cetera. Branding around this, marketing
around this. So making the full economic environment
and the full structure of how we function, making
it interesting to maintain in the long run. And
on the social level, it's about taking care of
our volunteers. It's about taking care. of the
root setters of the judges making sure that for
example judges and volunteers they get somehow
the compensation they deserve and that they feel
that they can contribute in a positive way and
they don't get used but they are really part
of the family or root setters I've heard of root
setters that also have injuries in the end and
then you need to make sure that they can work
in healthy conditions and that they can also
if they get injured that they don't fall without
work that they have something to continue living
um so that's a bit the social part making sure
that somehow people can live of their passion
and of course environmental is also part of everything
because the world we only have one plant but
i think sustainability it's even more on the
economic and the social part than the environmental
part if you do good first two probably the third
one will also become better because you you use
better the resources you have you don't abuse
the resources but you use your resources in a
healthy way so that's how i think that sustainability
is important and if i can add one more so there
was development and education there was sustainability
in its three different aspects and then lastly
a focus for me is teamwork and cooperation because
in the end it's not only on board level but i
mean each and every stakeholder in the full organization
should be part of the team and if you work well
with the national federations with the continental
councils with the commissions with the office
of course with other stakeholders with experts
and if you make sure that each and everyone is
involved and that there is a sharing of knowledge
and an exchange of of good habits and and of
maybe also the mistakes that have been made so
everyone learns from each other i think that
will allow the organization to really grow to
to to its best uh potential okay yeah that makes
sense um i guess the main thing that comes to
mind for me is like the funding issue and it
seems like i mean we always talk about how there's
like not really enough funding in climbing or
competition climbing specifically um and then
I think like with funding, you kind of need that
money there to be able to start like these educational
processes and everything like that. Do you have
an idea of like how to increase the funding?
Because that seems like something that no one
really knows how to tackle. It's not that no
one knows. It is indeed a very difficult question,
but it's the full package that you need to grow
in order to solve this funding issue. So funding
indeed is the basis of everything, how you fund
things. And of course, for example, we largely
hope or base ourselves on Olympic funding. But
in the end, we never had a lot of Olympic funding
and we had to look for other opportunities. So
in the end, over the last 70 years, I believe
the IFC has done already a very good job in obtaining
more and more funding and in growing the image
of the sport. So that's one thing you need to
work on, on the different revenue streams that
you might have. And I think there has been done
already a very good job till now, but we can
still do more if you really work on a good event
model. And if at next to that event model, you
do good branding and you do good marketing, you
can find more. than we have nowadays. And over
the last years, we have seen that there has been
some interesting new deals happening. One clear
example is that in Europe, now we are on Eurosport.
And Eurosport gives the possibility to millions
and millions of viewers to watch our sport. So
somehow the importance of our sport has grown
over the last years. And that's the way we need
to go. And I definitely believe that with our
appearance in the Tokyo Games, in Paris Games,
this is even pushed furthermore. So it is by
making good events, by doing good branding around
events, by doing good marketing, that we will
manage at IOC level. But in the end, you also
allow the same happening at continental level
and the same happening at national level. Just
to explain at continental level in Europe, we
started a YouTube channel two or three years
ago. I'm not 100 % certain when we started. But
so in the past, we didn't have this specific
European YouTube channel for our European Youth
Cups and for our European Cups. But that's also
making sure that we get more visibility at the
continental level. If you have visibility, you
can build an image. If you have an image, you
can do good branding around this and you can
do marketing around this. That's one example,
or at national level, since we are in Europe
now on Eurosport, and I believe in other continents
there is also more and more visibility. So since
you are more visible on the television, in the
end, as a national federation, you can also look
for more visibility for your national events.
The overall knowledge of the public of the sport
is growing. So yeah, this creates more and more
possibilities. That's for the event side. And
since you also mentioned the educational side,
I want to dig into that as well. For me, education
doesn't need to be for free a root setter. He
makes his living out of it. It's a profession.
So if you follow a professional education, you
can pay for it. It doesn't need to be a hyper
expensive neither. Up till now, I think lots
of these programs have been financed by solidarity
programs. But why can't we ask a little contribution
of the ones following the courses so that somehow
we create a budget or an auto -financing system,
I would say. everyone who follows an educational
program he pays a little bit we get a little
bit of gain out of this and this gain we can
automatically reinvest in more educational programs
and this in all the different kinds of courses
so in this way I think we can really find with
the IFC many ways of creating revenue and if
we keep investing everything in further development
I don't think this is wrong to do I guess the
thing that comes to mind about that is I've heard
that maybe the route setters don't get paid so
much for setting for like IFSC events or yeah,
I guess mainly for like IFSC events I don't know
about for the Olympics. So if they have to also
like pay for their development, does that kind
of create like a... what's the word i guess like
a barrier for certain people to improve their
skills okay so i i definitely agree that we could
or we should maybe be able to pay people more
for what they do and i'm not talking only about
the roots and there is also judges there is many
many people involved that maybe deserve to get
more but it all starts from what you you have
as income, then you can see how much you can
give as outgoing towards people as well. I believe
it has grown over the last 17 years already.
So we're going into the good direction and I
think we need to continue this. So that's the
first thing. I definitely agree that people deserve
to earn fair money. Secondly, do you make it
or do you create a barrier if you ask people
to pay for education? I don't think so. As long
as this helps to make the education qualitative,
I think it's a win. Because in the end, you make
sure that people obtain diplomas or experience,
which will help them to be better in their jobs.
And in the end, it's not only the IFSC events,
it's only a small part of the events that happen
worldwide and the commercial routes. I think
it's even next to that, a completely different
story. So I think if you allow people to get
the experience and the knowledge to do well their
jobs, then asking, I definitely said a small
amount or a small contribution. I didn't say
a huge amount. It should be a bit more than break
even in the end. And that way, I think we can
make more courses happen. We can educate more
people. These people go back to where they live
and work with more knowledge and more experience.
So somehow it will allow a cascading effect for
growing the sport. Sounds good. And then also
earlier when you were talking about like the
Eurosport deal for funding, I'm in the US, so
I don't know too much about that. I still just
watch it on YouTube. Yeah, I definitely know
that there was a lot of talk about Eurosport
and the difficulties it made for some people
in Europe to watch climbing. What has been the
outcome of that deal? Do you find that it's been
positive? Is it easy to watch on the channel?
Has it increased viewership? Yeah, definitely.
So in the end, indeed, there has been a lot of
talks because of Eurosport, we had to geoblock
the YouTube channel in Europe, which is somehow
sad because you don't allow your nearest friends
and family to watch it for free on YouTube and
you need to pay to view it on Eurosport. But
in the end, the numbers of people that can watch
sport climbing on Eurosport are completely different
to the numbers that we obtain if we use our youtube
channel so somehow you just give um the sport
a much wider um coverage or no not coverage i
mean there's just many more people that are watching
the sport that are getting interested in the
sport It's about millions of people. I don't
have the exact numbers. Fabrizio Rossini from
the office, the communications, head of communications,
he knows the exact numbers and the difference
is just huge. So yeah, I think it definitely
makes a difference. And yeah, it makes the difference
that people in the streets nowadays can talk
about climbing. They know bouldering. They don't
lead climbing. They definitely know speed climbing,
which still is the most easy to appreciate, apparently.
But yeah, it helps. It makes a huge difference.
Okay, so then I guess going into one of the more...
harder issues that I had in mind, also sort of
related to viewership. Do you have any thoughts
on some of the biggest athletes taking a step
back from competitions after the Olympics? I
think like Janja and Brooke said that they might
be going to fewer World Cups this year. Is this
like concerning to you that a lot of the big
names are? stepping away. Please excuse this
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as well back to the show first of all i think
that we really cannot imagine the pressure that
the athletes at the olympic games they live and
i think we need to respect them for that we need
to understand that after this intense build -up
towards the olympic games they tend to need a
rest not only for their body but also for their
mind So it's a logical thing that happens in
all sports, all Olympic sports. You see that
people have this kind of build -up towards a
peak of four years and then afterwards there
is quite a slowdown in performance and also in
participation. So yeah, we can only respect that
and that's what happens. I think a solution for
this issue, if you call it an issue, is having
a good long -term calendar. where somehow we
plan our events also accordingly, that we include
the fact that indeed an Olympic Games is a high
point in the career of an athlete. Sometimes
they even build up eight years towards it or
they dream from it if they are born. So it's
a high point, definitely. And we need to follow
this rhythm, I think, in the calendar that we
make, a long -term calendar on all levels, on
the continental level, at the world level. So
planning our events in a smart way. Not only
within the Olympic year, because in the Olympic
year, indeed, last year we had the European Championship
only a few weeks after the Olympic Games. It
wasn't the smartest move maybe, but it was still
a successful event. But maybe we could have planned
it differently and we could have had other champions
be participating as well. So yeah, making a good
long -term calendar in the year itself, but also
over the four years might be a solution. And
then secondly, I think also... if we make sure
that our own events, the World Championship,
the World Cups and being the overall winner of
the World Cup or being the number one of that
week or of that month of that year, somehow if
this has a value or more of a value, then I think
also athletes will plan accordingly and make
sure that they build up within their full program
towards these kind of events. Yeah, how do you
think... we can build more value into winning
a world cup or the world champs. Cause I know
a lot of people have mentioned that world cups
used to feel like the biggest thing or world
champs used to feel like the biggest thing that
people, um, really want to strive for. And then
since the Olympics have come into play, it just
doesn't really seem like people care about it
anymore. I think in many sports, the Olympic
Games are simply the biggest goal to achieve.
It's so unique. You can only have it every four
years. You need to be a selected sport to be
part of it as well. So this value of the Olympic
Games, it's clearly unbeatable somehow. But then
still, our own events, the World Championship
and then the World Cups, how do you give them
value? The easy answer is the prize money. Of
course, by growing prize money, by making sure
that people get also prize money for the overall
title or maybe for being number one. But also,
if we make sure that the visibility of our events,
that the branding of our events, the marketing
around this, give more value to these events,
then somehow it's also more interesting for sponsors
to have athletes that are. performing well at
world cup events and maybe they don't manage
to be the olympic champion but they are performing
at at world cup events and that way they are
interesting persons so it's not only directly
in our own event with the prize money but it's
also by making the image of our events a better
image or a more interesting image that the value
for sponsors gets bigger and and that way for
an athlete it becomes more interesting to be
a world cup winner because yeah it makes them
possible to to make a living out of their passion
being a competition climber okay yeah that makes
sense yeah definitely adding exposure um would
help as well in terms of like non -immediate
monetary funding in terms of prize money Okay,
so next issue I wanted to get into, this is about
like the new rule limiting participants per country
from like bigger climbing federations. What are
your thoughts on that? A lot of people don't
necessarily believe in like wanting to just have
more climbers come in just for the sake of them
getting like experience. It's a very difficult
exercise to make. In the end, we want indeed
the best climbers to be able to participate at
the highest level competitions. But on the other
side, we also want to make it possible for all
national federations to grow, to get experience,
to be at the highest level of competitions and
to get connected with their NOCs, for example.
I mean, their National Olympic Committees. And
so it's a very difficult exercise to be made.
But even before this year, there was already
a quota for many countries. There were already
difficulties. I believe that, okay, clearly for
now, Japan is the clear example as being the
ones who get the biggest disadvantage of the
new rule. But I think in the big countries like
France, like Slovenia. There is issues with people
being very performant that don't manage to get
into the competitions that they would like to
participate in because of quota. I remember also
last year at the Olympic qualifying series, the
fight between the three French athletes for the
two sports. So there is also at the Olympic level,
there is this quota problem. So it happens. Now,
what is the solution for it? I don't know yet.
It's an exercise that we need to make with the
national federations, with the commissions. We
need to have discussions about, okay, how do
we want to proceed with this? And it's all about
this event model that I was talking about before
as well. You need a pyramid with a world championship
as main event at IFC level, world cups, you have
continental cups, regional cups, and how you
build up towards that. That's to be discussed.
In the end, do we really need to have... full
quota for each and every national federation
in the world championship or at the world cup
level in the future it's a question mark i don't
have the answer we could also go to a system
where the world ranking defines who can participate
in the um in the highest level events but then
you need a world ranking system which allows
people to get enough points to reach this level
of those who are participating in the highest
level competitions so it's a full puzzle that
you need to make and it's not an easy exercise
and i think we just need to have this this discussion
and it will take some more time and this year
there has been made a choice it's definitely
a pity for some of the best climbers of the world
but yeah we have to discuss this further more
and see what what the best solutions seem to
be and try out Okay, so other than that, the
next issue I think people are always talking
about is the Red S policy. I know that the new
policy went into effect earlier in the season.
How do you think it has been working? Do you
know if people have actually been flagged for
it or if any action has been taken place? Obviously
not like specific names, but just whether it's
really been implemented. So I think that IFC
has been a pioneer in this approach. So we're
trying something new. And as everything that
is new, you might have childhood diseases in
it. So I won't say that it's a perfect system.
But I think somehow what the new approach to
the Red S issue allowed is there is more open
talks about it. Definitely, there is more consciousness
about the topic. And I think also with the athletes,
it's become less of a taboo to talk with it.
I think more and more national federations are
now having a medical person. nominated to do
the follow -up of their athletes there has been
talks with athletes that are maybe becoming into
the danger zone so i think that's very positive
evolution for the sport so it's it's less of
a taboo there is clear talks with athletes about
how they are dealing with these kind of topics
and i Also believe that at World Cup level, there
has been tests done, I think, with over 300 athletes,
300 tests last year. There has been talks with
specific athletes that are maybe slightly between
the green and the orange or that are getting
into the danger zone, but not there yet. So I
definitely think that we are making huge steps
in the good direction. But I also believe that
we need to continue evaluating the system. in
contact with the athletes through the athletes
commission or even each athlete every athlete
that wants to talk about it should be and is
probably also invited by the medical commission
to talk with them we should talk with coaches
we should talk with medical experts i think the
medical commission is doing a really good job
here in europe we also started a health and safeguarding
commission which focuses more on the prevention
side so that we can educate more coaches and
youth athletes and athletes widely about this
topic. So I think attacking the prevention side
of it is very important as well. For example,
at the European Championship last year in the
Athletes Forum, we had a presentation made by
the Health and Safeguarding Commission where
there was a testimony made by Beth Rolland. about
how she lived her climbing career and on this
topic. And there was also an intervention from
psychologist Mina Markovic who clearly has competition
experience and could talk from her own experiences
as well. So I think these kind of interactions
with athletes, they are really rich and that's
the way we need to continue moving forward. So
yeah, Red S, it's a very difficult topic. I think
IFC is pioneering it. We should be proud of what
we are doing, but we should be critical about
how we keep pushing it to become better and better.
That's shortly my opinion on this topic. I had
recently interviewed someone who mentioned that
there's no policy in the youth. uh youth climbing
um and that that's maybe like an important part
to consider because like a lot of these um habits
and like eating habits and eating disorders take
place when they're growing up and it's not like
it's something that develops once they've like
gotten older um it starts earlier than that um
so do you have any any thoughts there Yeah, it's
very difficult to put a policy in place for the
youth categories because you need somehow comparable
data and you need to make it fair for each and
everyone, no matter where you live, et cetera,
et cetera. So it's really a difficult question
to put this in place for the youth. But I think
somehow for the youth, it's even more important
to have the preventive approach and it's by education.
It's educating the coaches. It's making sure
that each and everyone takes also his responsibility.
It's national federations, coaches, parents,
the people around those athletes that somehow
create the circumstances in which they grow.
And it's also by making it no taboo anymore that
we somehow allow it to be less of an issue. So
yeah, I think rather than seeking for the policy
for the youth events, it's about making sure
that we do this. preventive approach and of course
if we manage to put a policy in place for our
our youth events then we will do it but i think
it's more important to work on the preventive
prevention side yeah no i think that makes sense
um yeah because i guess like in terms of like
youth athletes i don't know when they're like
growing at such different speeds at like every
age it's like kind of hard to make um an overall
like call in terms of what's considered healthy
or not. Yeah. And they have their growth spurt
at different moments. They have different morphology
from the basis. Also, they are very vulnerable
to being, how you say it, so the moment they
get a stamp on their forehead, it's really difficult
for them to cope with. So we need to be really
careful with the youth athletes and we need to
approach them in a very smart way. Whereas at
adult level, they are more grown up. It's more
stable. Normally, it should already somehow be
all arranged. But then still, if there is red
flags appearing, then we should act. So I think
having a more aggressive approach towards adults,
it's a logical thing. Whereas for youth, really,
we need to be cautious and we need to, really,
all of us, we need to take our responsibility
and do it in a healthy way. Knowing that in the
end, the long term effects are more important
than the short term metals. Yeah, makes sense.
And yeah, I think also just like getting rid
of the taboo and like talking about it more makes
people feel more comfortable with like coming
forward with their stories or coming forward
if they do think they have an issue. So yeah,
I think that makes sense. So the last hot topic
issue that I wanted to get into was about the
Neon Beach Games. I know there was a lot of talk
about that in the past few years. So yeah, I
think there were some people who were pretty
upset about it. And in general, what are your
thoughts on hosting events in countries that
are sort of controversial? okay so first of all
the Neon games indeed we have had them for two
years in a row and there was some controversy
about it clearly now this year the Neon games
aren't on the schedule anymore so somehow this
simplifies the topic that specific topic but
in general if there is controversy about competitions
happening in one or a specific country I think
most important to keep in mind is that somehow
if IFC organizes a competition, it is always
together with the National Federation, which
is aligned with the values that we all share
within the climbing community. And so if we do
it together with the National Federation, then
this means also that they organize it with the
spirit of mind and they somehow also share these.
uh values with the the audience that will be
there the way they organize it and somehow it
even helps us to promote the values of of climbing
and of our community so uh on in general i would
say that for the neon games we won't have the
controversy anymore because it's not on the schedule
anymore and even in the future these kind of
things happen i hope really that all people Keep
in mind that, yeah, we're a climbing family,
a climbing community. We all share the same values
and it's by being present in other places where
there is maybe other opinions that we at least
show the opinions we have and we can show also
the way we want to live in this world. So I think
it's only beneficial to be anywhere in the world.
So that's my basic idea on this topic. Perfect.
Thank you for that. Okay, so I think those were
most of the issues that I wanted to cover. Now
going into some of the Discord questions that
came through. Some of these will be a little
bit more chill, I guess. So no worries there.
The first one, what changes do you think we'll
see to World Cup formats as the sport grows?
You said that it wasn't going to be an easy question.
Less political, I guess, maybe. Yeah, less political,
maybe. But it's hard to look in the future. So,
yeah, I don't know. It all depends on how we
want to grow our sport. As mentioned somewhere
before in the interview, I believe that maybe
it is an option in the future to have a World
Cup participation based upon world ranking and
not necessarily a national quota. I guess, like,
what does that entail if it's just based on world
ranking? So, for example, if we really manage
to put up the best show, if we only invite the
80 best of the world, then somehow we limit ourselves.
We cannot allow each and every national federation
to have participants there. It's a bit like in
tennis, the Grand Slams. It's only the best ones
who reach the top tier of the... of the the event
automatically okay you can have people through
qualification maybe some someone get into the
the final weeks of the grand slams as well the
same kind of scheme could work for climbing but
it's we need to discuss it really well and i
don't think it will happen in the first four
years it's a discussion that need to be had but
that's somehow the qualification to system towards
our own events that might be a change then i
think uh if we really talk disciplines speed
and lead are more or less stable disciplines
but on the bouldering level clearly this year
there will be the point system applied and we
need to evaluate that and see how that will develop
so those kind of changes it's minor changes I
think in the future because the disciplines they
have their history already but we need to tweak
them slightly maybe And of course, para climbing,
that's a big question, how that will develop
over the upcoming years. What will the impact
be of the Paralympic categories? Because of course,
we don't want to lose any category that we have,
because I think it's a really rich family of
people inside the climbing community. So we need
to anticipate as well, and we need to work really
well to make sure that each and every... climber
who has climbing in his heart can continue to
compete if he wants to yeah I think when you
mentioned like the tennis stuff I just remembered
I watched like some random YouTube video about
like tennis athletes and participation and funding
in terms of career and I just remember saying
that I mean obviously in tennis if you're like
one of the top players you make like millions
and millions of dollars but For anyone who's
like not at that like most elite level, like
the top, I don't know, 10 people or something
like that. It's just like a really expensive
sport to like participate in and there's like
no money there. So yeah, I guess I'm not really
sure if that's something I would want to do.
Me neither. And that's really a discussion we
need to have. We need to evaluate the options.
Somehow it is a reality as well that sport isn't
necessarily such an example. We have in Belgium
an ex -Olympic champion, world record holder
in the 100 meters breaststroke, who now is selling
shoes as his work, day -to -day work. Another
one who's coming from judo, who made bronze medal
in the end of the 90s. He's now a police officer.
So in the end, getting rich from sport, it's
really difficult and it's somehow for the happy
few. But if with the IFSC, we can manage to make
a structure where we have more happy fews and
where overall the full scope of our organization
with the route setters, with the judges, people
are... able to at least participate in a good
way in the sport and somehow make a living out
of it or at least it's a healthy way of living
that would be a good thing but yeah it's impossible
to make it for all athletes uh easy to to earn
a lot of money that's that's impossible but we
need to make the best structure possible and
we need to continue evaluating the structure
we need not to be afraid of changing it over
time neither but it depends on on the full the
full puzzle in the end another possibility that
people throw out there is like moving away from
national teams towards something instead like
sponsor teams like they do in f1 um what are
your thoughts on that of course the national
team it it gives also a certain value being able
to participate for your national team in the
end going back to tennis it's quite funny in
tennis indeed you have the pro system with the
individual athlete but in the end they also have
the fat cup where the national teams compete
and it's somehow a smaller kind of competition
uh or even football where you have the commercial
teams and then there is still the the world cup
every four years There are so many different
ways of making the structure around the sport.
And I think we just need to have good discussions
with the national federations prepared by the
office with the different commissions. Clearly,
we have to have a marketing view on this. So
the marketing commission needs to watch this
as well. The athletes need to say what they believe
is best. And together we need to come to the
best solution and indeed inspiring us in the
other sports. It's a good thing. But in the end,
I don't think there is a one size fits all idea
or we will need to reinvent ourselves more than
once and just make good choices based upon the
time context that exists. Okay, last question.
Much more about your own climbing. What are your
climbing preferences, plastic versus rock and
your favorite climbing style? Okay. Great, great
question. My climbing preference clearly is with
the rocks. I have spent too much time on plastic
as a coach, as a climber, as a route setter.
And somehow right now I'm climbing. Unfortunately,
I'm climbing less. I have a family. I'm doing
a bit more of the political work. And in Belgium,
it's harder to get to the rocks also. So once
corona happened, I somehow stopped a bit climbing.
Right now I'm climbing six to ten times a year
only. So yeah. Whoa, like total. Yeah, it's not
enough. It's not enough. But what I miss is clearly
the rocks and even more so Fontainebleau. It's
only three hours and a half driving from where
I live. And I used to spend 14 weekends in my
best years. uh in fontainebleau or i definitely
love catalonia and siurana specifically um as
as very nice places to go even though i must
say that the granite from for example uh scandinavia
or uh or in austria i also like so i like the
diversity of climbing and i mostly miss the rocks
and the outdoors even though of course competition
climbing the show the the emotions that are there
it's nice but i grow myself too old for participating
that's 100 clear so you never did any like competing
yourself oh yeah i used to do some competitions
once i started climbing of course i did some
recreational events i did some national events
belgian cups some belgium championship even but
i was i was i started too late and i was already
too much focused on coaching others so Luckily,
I did do some nice performances on the rocks.
But competition -wise, I was only at national
level. Only, okay. Belgium is a small country,
you know. Sure, yeah. How do you feel about competition
-style moves now? Do you ever do those kinds
of climbs? It's very interesting to see how it
evolves. And of course... In the past, some people
were really strong and others were not. But nowadays,
all are strong and you still need to give them
the challenges that they cannot make. You don't
want all people to succeed in everything. So
I understand that we had a tendency to introduce
these kind of moves and they are definitely spectacular.
They are skills that... that are interesting
to develop and the funny thing is that I still
notice that all the strong competition climbers
are also amongst the really strong rock climbers
so it's not that there is a complete difference
between competition style and the outdoor style
for example and I understand that some people
are a bit how would you say that it's not homesick
but they want to go back a bit to the old style
But yeah, if you want to climb old style, you
can still have old style once in a while, but
it's good to have a diversity and it's a natural
evolution and we cannot stop it necessarily.
But what is important, I think, is that we somehow
maintain indeed diversity and we don't make,
not every competition need to be the same style.
Every week the same would be a bit boring as
well. Is there like a favorite competition style
move that you like to do, like climb on? When
I was actively climbing and setting, I just like
to put in dynos, of course. Nowadays, it's so
diverse and I wouldn't say there is one specific
one that I would choose. all right cool um well
i think that's all the questions i had then um
thanks for joining me today is there any like
last minute words words of wisdom that you want
to get out there words of wisdom i'm too young
to be uh white maybe no um definitely i i believe
climbing is a really beautiful sport with lots
of beautiful people being involved and if we
can manage to all work together cooperate and
to help each other to continue the growth that
we are living now keeping true to our values
i i really hope that that can happen and if that
happens then probably we can indeed make better
worlds through sport climbing which is the vision
of the ifsc and which which is a vision that
i align with a lot so That's just built all together
on this nice port. And do you want to let people
know where they can find you if they have any
further questions or thoughts? I'm already a
bit old school, but still Instagram works as
you noticed because you could reach out to me
through Instagram. So yeah, indeed, if people
would like to reach out to me, they can easily
find me on Instagram and then send me a message
and I will happily reply to all decent questions.
Decent questions. So you don't want like hate
mail or anything like that? I think I unfortunately
I heard recently from a very known, a very famous
female athlete, the amount of wrong pictures
that she receives. And I think it's really a
pity to hear that that's the reality for female
athletes. I didn't realize it until I had a talk
with her. And I really, I don't understand how.
how we come to this point but fortunately it's
the truth so i won't risk to receive those kind
of pictures i guess but okay so you don't want
pictures if people want to send hate is that
okay no i'm just ninja it's funny no of course
people should act respectfully to each other
always so uh constructive criticism maybe yes
okay okay well um yeah thank you for talking
to me um thanks for joining thanks for answering
all the hard questions um and it was amazing
to talk to you yeah thanks a lot it was a pleasure
also thanks for all the questions thank you so
much for making it to the end of the podcast
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