I mean, what am I doing this for?
If I will end up, I don't know, in a wheelchair
being severely disabled anyway.
Also one thing which I think got most of the controversy
and tears and drama was the introduction
of minimum impairment criteria.
I think at the end, it was more than 12,000 meters of altitude
to climb up with a bike.
We are para climbers.
We're not searching for problems.
We are searching for solutions.
Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing
podcast.
I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce
my guest, Sebastian Depke.
Sebastian is a German para climber.
He is also the chair of the Para Climbing Commission,
and he worked on filing the application
to get climbing into the Paralympics for LA 2028,
which only recently got approved.
In this episode, we'll learn about his journey
accepting that his disease would affect his body
and climbing forever, what the process was
like for getting climbing into the Paralympics,
the drama behind the para climbing classification
process, and we talk about his harrowing 1,000 kilometer
journey to the Innsbruck World Cup on just a solar hand bike.
Hope you enjoy this episode with Sebastian.
How are you doing today?
I'm good.
Thank you.
I'm really good.
We'll get into it a bit more later,
but are you preparing for another solar bike journey,
or are you going to take that to Paris, the Olympics?
At the moment, I'm riding between Innsbruck,
the World Cup, and Villars, the Europe Championships.
And yes, I went to Innsbruck with the solar bike.
And from Innsbruck to my parents' home in Germany,
I did the second part of the solar bike trip.
So I've got a lot of things to organize now,
a lot of things to repair.
And I will start the journey towards Villar mid of August.
When is Villar coming up?
Villar is the European Championships.
It's all disciplines together.
So it's para climbing.
It's lead, boulder, speed, all together in Villar one week,
which started with para climbing.
And we are on the 24th and 25th of August.
OK, that'll be exciting.
Good luck there.
Thank you.
So let's get right into it.
For those who don't know, how and when
did you get into climbing?
I started climbing in 1998.
So that's 26 years now ago.
Got into it through some friends with auto climbing,
and then got hooked immediately.
And at that time, there weren't that many gyms.
So my climbing started mostly with auto climbing.
And that's where still my heart beats most for some to say.
It's auto climbing for sure.
And over the years, I got more and more into it.
And with starting my studies at the age of 19, 20,
also with being able to drive my own car at the age of 18,
that took off a lot.
And from that moment on, I really got more and more serious
into climbing.
Wow, 28 years ago.
Or 26 years ago?
Yeah, 26 years.
Yeah, that's almost as long as I've been alive.
So that's really cool.
And how long have you been competing in the IFSC?
I'm competing since 2017.
That's when I learned to know that it actually exists.
I started climbing at the age of 13 in 1998.
And at those times, I still had the first symptoms
of my disease, which is called ankylosing spondylitis.
It started more or less at the same moment.
It's a rheumatic disease where inflammations lead
to the fusion of, in my case, of the whole backbone and my hips.
So I just have my arms and my shoulders are also limited,
and my knees and my ankles for climbing.
That's all what's left for me.
But I have a whole climbing career
before being severely disabled.
Oh, actually I didn't know that.
Yeah, so there's still a Sebastian climbing
without being severely impaired.
It's also the time where I did lots of other things.
So I saw lots of different parts of climbing,
including doing first ascent, bolting routes,
replacing old gear on routes, multi-pitch, alpine,
sport climbing.
So yeah, also aid climbing, big wall.
Also put my nose into that for a very short moment.
So yes, so I've seen lots of different stuff.
And now, so to say, plastic climbing
is one of the least exciting, or let's say,
the least adventurous part of my climbing work that I do.
Well, it's big fun.
And I still do stuff like, well, I
don't need climbing anymore for safety reasons.
But I still do have, if I have to occasion, for example,
I still don't multi-pitch, for example.
And I also bolt new routes from time to time.
OK, yeah, so I was going to ask, was most of that outdoor stuff
before the disability started to kick in?
Or do you still do bolting and, I guess,
probably no big wall stuff?
Well, a big wall, not anymore.
It was just one try once.
But multi-pitch, yeah, if I have the occasion for something,
yes, and dreams and projects.
Also with other part-timers, there's
a funny video of Urko, the guy from Team Spain
with leg amputation.
And I, we tried together in the Malas de Rigos,
that's a big sandstone conglomerate towers here
in Spain, tried to get on top of those really interesting towers.
And we also did more than just that, what's shown in the video.
So from time to time, I get the occasion
to do something like that.
And for example, after the World Cup in Salt Lake,
I went with a teammate, Kevin, who went together to Red Rocks
and did some multi-pitch there.
And yeah, so I tried to combine things.
I don't see any sense in just flying halfway around the world
to just climb two or maybe three routes,
that you don't even climb to the top, most likely, on plastic,
and then fly back home again.
Yeah, makes sense.
That's not what's into my idea of climbing, so to say.
Once I'm there, I want to see more.
I want to do more.
I hope I can combine it in the future as well,
and so to keep up this combining things a bit.
So to be honest, I don't climb that much on plastic.
I live in Spain.
I'm competing for a team journal, but I live in Spain.
And I don't have good gym, let's say, possibilities here,
which are nearby and which fit to my needs, not at all.
I just can do bouldering here.
And for safety reasons, I just do low traverses.
So if I go bouldering, you just find me on a spray wall
doing max power training.
Nothing else like that.
And to be honest, yeah, it's good for your maximum power,
but it's not always fun.
If I want to really have fun or also, for example,
if I want to do that kind of maximum power training,
I also can go outdoors and project some hard routes.
That's basically the same.
You can also do bouldering on top rope on a hard project.
That's, in my opinion, mostly a similar effect.
So how's the accessibility between the gym
versus going outside?
Because I would imagine it's sometimes pretty hard
to get to the crags or the boulders outside,
depending on what the trails are like.
Yeah, sure.
For example, if I try to do something like multi-pitch
or something like that, that's where mostly the approaches are
really, really hard.
There we have to select by what's the easiest one.
So short approach and not scrambling too many kilometers
through loose rock sections or getting up
loose rock fields or something like that, that's terrain
which is almost impossible to me.
But if it's a normal sport climbing crag,
which is accessible, so why not?
I don't see it that much as a big thing for me,
but I've got to say I'm not relying on a wheelchair,
for example.
In that case, it would be totally different stories.
But if I see what my friends are doing
who are in a wheelchair, they get even to those crags
with aid of friends and they don't care.
We are power climbers.
We're not searching for problems.
We are searching for solutions.
That's a good statement, a good way to put it.
So how old were you when you started to develop?
Ikylosing spondylitis.
Yeah, how old were you when that started?
It started at the age of 13.
So you might say, wow, that's pretty young
for rheumatic disease.
And that's correct, but it's a specific form of rheumatism.
By the way, it's the second most frequent one
right after rheumatic arthritis.
And here in northern Europe, it affects more or less
almost 0.5% of the population.
So that's 1 in 200.
And those are just the ones who get diagnosed.
That means there is the assumption
that there are way more cases that did not get a diagnosis
because their symptoms are just so low that you
don't get diagnosed.
So it starts with light pain, maybe just in your lower back,
which can be everything.
And sometimes it's also in the hips, for example.
And as it's a progressive disease,
it does not go in a constant sort of level of pain.
It just comes and goes.
And if you have an active time with these rheumatic effects,
then it's maybe just a few days or a week or two
where you have got pain, and then it disappears completely.
And well, I mean, if it's in the beginning,
you think, well, it came on its own.
It went on its own.
So it shouldn't be that serious, no?
But then it comes back again, and there's a moment
where it leaves something.
And then you don't go back to level zero again.
You're slightly built up over time, more and more impairment.
And that's what also happened to me.
And I got diagnosed at the age of 21, by the way.
So that means eight years after having the first symptoms.
And you might think, wow, that's a long time.
But this is actually more or less average.
So in Europe, the statistics say,
I think it's seven years in between the first symptoms
and the final diagnosis, still on average in these days.
Because it starts slow, and it's hard to diagnose.
And especially those symptoms in the very beginning,
that can be everything.
And it's a hard diagnosis, and you really
have to be sure from a doctor's perspective
on who you're giving this label, so to say.
And also, there are certain criteria you have to fulfill.
And for example, if you are, as a patient,
not the one who just says it the way it's written in the doctor's
book, then maybe you don't get there,
or get there as easy as that.
And especially, there is another crux,
which is this time dependency in between you
are having pain right now and when you get to the doctor.
Because let's say you have serious pain,
and you're like, oh, I need to go to the doctor.
You get an appointment next week.
And you go to the doctor, and your pain is gone.
Yeah, that's happened to me a bunch.
OK, and this happens quite often to people
with these form of diseases.
And if you do that multiple times at the same doctor,
he will most likely say your problem is not
in your back or in your hips.
It's maybe right behind your eyes
and in between your ears.
Mm, right.
Right?
So and that happens.
I know people with ankylosing spondylitis
who are coming out of the psychiatry
and who were supposed to be like some where it was proposed.
There is some psychosomatic background
of this condition and not the rheumatic one.
So there are people who get crossovers,
let's say, from the psychiatry part
to the rheumatic department of the medicine, which sounds
crazy.
But I know multiple people where that happened to.
And trust me, if you experience something like that,
you have really trust issues in the medical system.
And I totally understand that.
Yeah, when you finally, I guess, got your diagnosis,
was that kind of a relief for you then?
Well, it was not so easy to get the diagnosis.
For me, that meant running half a year from doctor to doctor.
And one said, yeah, it's that.
Or the next one said, no, look at the picture.
Can be anything.
Just he did too much sport in the wrong way, whatever.
And the next one said, oh, maybe, yeah,
but look at that.
And I've got the next one to the next one to the next one.
And I had big question marks.
And getting such a label is hard.
It's really hard.
So for me, it was like falling into a black hole.
And at the time, I was studying chemistry
and being clinging a lot.
And it was like, well, I was standing in the chemistry lab
in the university.
And I was asking myself, what am I actually doing here?
Does it make actually sense?
What's my life now going to?
I've got a progressive disease which cannot be healed.
Is this the end now?
What am I doing this for if I will end up, I don't know,
in a wheelchair being severely disabled anyway?
Because you get told the consequence is
quite drastic and clear.
And everyone can Google and see what that means.
And it doesn't mean that you have
to get the hardest form of it.
But I mean, Dr. Thau, so honest to you.
I guess I just assumed that a lot of para climbers
started out climbing with their disability or impairment.
And so I'm kind of wondering what that process was for you
to realize that you got this diagnosis.
And then, I don't know, I guess, grieve like climbing
as you knew it?
First of all, just knowing the name for the thing that you
have does change your climbing.
I mean, you just know, OK, now it has a name.
But it's still your life is still,
like the pain is not less or not more just knowing that,
at least in my case.
The psychological part, yeah, that
was a big thing for the moment.
And for me, it was like climbing always
was this good moment where I know it's good for my body,
maintain flexibility, strength, and also just having fun.
It's so important.
And that's something which helped me along
or through a lot of dark hours.
So it was a way to help me through this process a lot.
And also because they say the most important part of therapy
is like stay flexible, stay flexible, stay flexible.
So do sport, do sport, and do sports.
And climbing is perfect therapy for that.
And so it was a good way to maintain my body
in a good shape.
And nevertheless, I had a really severe form
which developed down.
So I even stopped climbing.
I was just able to walk with crutches for two years.
And then there was a time when I didn't climb for a moment.
But then I even went back with the crutches to the rock
and started climbing again.
And after two years, it took me half a year
to get away from the crutches.
So my pain level dropped.
And I had from that moment on no active inflammations anymore
in my body.
And since then, it also didn't higher back up, so to say.
So I'm officially in a stable state, which is also
which gives me actually the capability of doing
what I do now.
Because doing sports in a too hard way
with ankylosing spondylitis might trigger new inflammations.
So you're always riding on that tiny edge of like doing,
I've got to do something to stay in shape,
to stay flexible, to stay strong.
But if I go too far, I trigger the next big inflammation.
And then I might break down.
So it's like a really, really wide ride.
You have to manage that.
So do you ever have to hold back then
on trying harder?
Yeah, sure, sure, sure.
I mean, if you get kicked out with hard inflammations,
you can, we all should take medication to reduce your pain
and then think, oh, I can try harder now.
Your body will show you that he's also
capable of showing you even harder what he was trying
to say to you before.
Right, so I do not recommend that at all.
And I mean, I'm not a doctor.
I cannot recommend anything.
I'm not in position.
I just learned on my own body that most important thing is
listen to myself to try to understand this game
what's happening there.
Because I learned that's so much more than just something
I cannot control has influence on my level of pain.
It's much more, for example, if I was lucky, I had less pain.
If I had stress, I had more pain.
If I eat certain things, I got more pain.
So for example, I tried a bit of alcohol,
inflammations just right through the roof.
And I was completely full of pain.
And I was asked, why do people think that this alcohol makes
sense or is funny?
I didn't get it.
I don't drink it until now, so I don't need it.
And same about caffeine, for example.
So my way was to identify those factors.
And it's like if you're sitting on a table,
and people are playing cards, but you don't know the rules.
But if you're so watched long enough,
you can reverse engineer the rules
and realize the repeating moments of the game
and trying to get an idea of what it's like.
And that's what I did with my body.
So I was studying science, chemistry,
and sitting at a doctor who said, yeah, we
don't know where it's coming from, and we cannot be healed.
And good luck.
Was not the end for me, because it was like, OK,
someone is saying, I will not get it.
But that does not necessarily mean that there's no chance.
It just means that he does not know yet.
And when I always felt like, OK, there's
more than just that what the doctors say,
I said, OK, I'm going to dive into that.
I'm going to try to see what I can do with that
and get behind those things where I can do something.
And yeah, that led me on an adventurous path.
At the end, I mean, I'm here now.
I'm climbing.
I went through a deep, deep time of just being
able to walk crutches, almost sitting in a wheelchair.
And I've pied everything back for my life, and even more
than I did before.
I mean, I started scuba diving.
I'm doing a lot of things.
I do a lot of climbing.
Yeah, I got back a valid driver license.
I moved out to Germany, got self-employed.
So I think I'm living a life which
is a really privileged and lucky one.
And I'm a really happy guy, and I would say happier
than I was before.
And I found my luck in life in something completely different
than what it was before.
And I learned to read the things that my body wants
to tell me through my dialysis.
And I don't see it anymore as a burden or as something bad
that happens to me.
It's more like life showed me something,
and I tried to do something out of that.
And I always say, my slogan sort of says, take it, love it,
live it.
And that was the key for me, learning
to love what you have and trying to make the best out of it,
even if it's something which is considered
as the worst which can happen to you in life.
And that's what I'm trying to do every day.
And that's why I'm here still here,
and that's why I'm a happy guy, not being depressed and not
in a wheelchair.
Awesome.
OK.
And I mean, it's opened new opportunities to you
through paragliding and all the work that you do through that.
Sure.
I mean, every year I do things where I say,
wow, I could not have imagined this one year ago.
And the interesting thing is that it continues year by year,
and something is asking, oh, what's
going to happen next year?
And I'm pretty sure we're going to talk about the Paralympics,
for example.
And this is one of those topics, for example,
a topic where I did not believe it could actually happen
and that it's happening, it's getting real,
and the consequences of this is also one example.
Just if someone would have told this to me one year ago,
I would say, yeah, come on.
Take Lex from these drugs.
It's better for everyone, please.
Yes.
I think that's a good transition into the Paralympics, which
for anyone who doesn't know, paragliding
has been approved as a sport for the Paralympics in LA,
2028, which is super exciting.
And you mentioned that you actually
worked on filing the application for that.
So what was that process like?
Yeah.
I mentioned before I'm in the paragliding competition
scene since 2017.
I got there because I met Janek Ruder,
one of the bolder World Cup climbers from Team Slovenia
at that time.
He's not into the competition scene now anymore.
But I met him and he said, do you actually
know there's a competition format for you?
And I was like, what?
I don't know.
I didn't know how to spell IFSC and what that abbreviation
actually means in 2016 when I met him.
And so I googled a bit, found my way to the German team,
and since then I'm with them.
And in 2019, there was again elections for the IFSC athlete
representatives.
And yeah, it was obvious that there were
lots of challenges in all the sport.
And I was not holding back and sharing my opinion.
And at that time, I was speaking three languages, German,
English, and French.
And I was helping a lot out with communication, translation,
explaining things.
And I had proposals, et cetera, and said,
hey, let's do something.
And I think there were four candidates for the position,
and the athletes voted in majority for me.
And since then, I was the athlete representative
for four years until 23.
I also got elected as the chair of the whole Paraclimbing
Commission.
So the Paraclimbing Commission in the IFSC
has two athlete representatives, coaches representatives,
experts, who, et cetera, and also classifiers.
So it's sort of say like everyone from this sport
sends a few experts to that table,
or a few representatives to that table, or one representative.
And those are the people who take the decisions,
discuss things, bring things from their community,
for example, to this table where decisions are made,
or what proposals are made, then towards the IFSC Executive
Board where things are decided, for example,
or some decisions we can swallow ones
that we can take on our own, or like send, for example,
new rule proposals, for example.
And yeah, and since 2023, I'm just an expert in the commission.
And I'm still the chair.
And as part of that, the strategic plan from the IFSC
from 2020 to 2028 was getting sport climbing and power
climbing in the Olympic and the Paralympic Games
28 in Los Angeles.
And as it was in that plan, it was our commission, so to say,
who had the job to work on that.
And so I was the one who was guiding, accompanying,
leading the whole process behind the scenes
to get there, basically.
I guess what did you have to fill out
in terms of applying for the Paralympics?
So it's a long way.
I would start before that because there's actually,
I have to know that you have to apply seven years
before the Games.
Oh, wow.
And you have to apply every time from you again.
So it's not that you're in, for example,
a sport climbing got accepted as additional sport in Tokyo 2020.
So that did not automatically mean that sport climbing would
also be in Paris and also in LA.
They apply every time again.
Every sport does that.
And every edition of the Games has also
a different medals and athlete quota.
So because there is a top cap of the maximum number of athletes,
which is allowed due to the logistics,
capabilities of the Olympic Village, et cetera.
So you have to know that every medal that we get,
no matter if it's sport climbing or power climbing,
what every athlete we are allowed to bring more
to field of plays is reduced in another sport.
And also one big factor which is not known
is that just being as an able-bodied sport
in the Olympics does not necessarily
mean that your para sport is also in the Paralympics.
This is a precondition.
So your able-bodied partner sport
has to be Olympic to be able to apply for the Paralympics,
except one sport.
Except one sport is parabotcha because it has no able-bodied
partner sport.
But for the others, this is a precondition.
So if, for example, climbing would get kicked out
of the Olympics, automatically, power climbing
would also be not in the Paralympics anymore.
Well, good thing it's been confirmed through 32 at least.
Yeah, exactly.
So for 32, Brisbane, we have to apply again.
And this is seven years in one.
So that official deadline will be in 2016, right,
if I counted correctly?
25 next year?
Yeah, well, I think it's six years and a half, more or less.
And since COVID, a few deadlines moved.
So yeah, and there's a Paralympic handbook
where all what I'm telling you here is also written.
And so if anyone's interested, go to Paralympic.org
and read through those documents.
That's what I did, by the way, in the very beginning
when I got told, OK, Seb, this is the project, Paralympics
LA 28.
See how you can do that.
And so that's what I did.
I just picked the Paralympic handbook
and read, OK, what are the requirements?
Where are we?
And you have to know the IOC, so the International Olympic
Committee, and the International Paralympic Committee.
So IOC, IPC are two separate organizations.
They have similarities, but at the end, they are separate.
And one thing which is similar is
that many of the criteria you have
to fulfill for getting accepted into the Paralympics
are the exact same as it is for the Olympics.
So for example, you need an organization.
You need to organize your sport in a way
that you have got an international federation,
you have got national federations,
and you have to have common rules, et cetera, et cetera.
There are a lot of, let's say, governance criteria
into that catalog.
And once you are ready for them for the Olympics,
you're automatically ready for the Paralympics as well.
And in our case, as power climbing
is also managed by the IFSC, like sport climbing is also
managed by the IFSC, this is like you check it once
and then it's done.
Other power sports, for example, are separated and managed
by different organizations.
And that is, again, a different story.
Yeah, so you mentioned that it's never guaranteed
that you would be in the Olympics.
You have to apply every time.
But is it at least easier to make it into, say, like a?
Brisbane, Australia.
Oh, yeah, Brisbane.
Is it at least easier to make it in there after the LA games
happen, since you've already been in it once?
Yeah, once you have these criteria fulfilled.
And one of those, which we did not
fulfill in the beginning, was, for example, the IPC level
classification system.
So that's the big difference you have
in between an able-bodied sport and a power sport
is classification.
So classification means we look at our athletes
and regroup them into different groups
where we have an equal sport activity so that not
the least impaired wins, but the one who
brings the best performance or the best sport activity
in comparison to his impairment.
And we want to have a fair competition.
So that means we don't let, for example, a visually impaired
climb against someone who is leg-amputeed.
And this person, again, climbed against someone
who is arm-amputeed, for example.
Because that would not be a competition.
That would be like, I don't know, fun climbing together.
So we need to have as equal conditions as possible.
And for sure, every sport class.
So that's the result on what a classification leads to.
We group the athletes in sport classes.
And every sport class has an upper and a lower end.
So there's always strong two-range.
But at least it's fairer than having none at all.
So at the moment in power climbing,
we have 10 sport classes.
And for example, once you have that system installed,
you have done a big, big step.
And this was one of the main, or I would say,
the biggest task for the whole power climbing commission
to fulcrum before we could apply.
Because when you apply for the games, and at the end,
you apply by actually filling out a questionnaire
and to show who you are, what you do.
And every sport does that.
And then the IPC and the IOC evaluates that
and makes a decision based on that.
And that's a bit of a secret on what actually submitted.
And no one knows what the others write in there.
And sometimes I think it must be fun to work at the IPC
to read out of non-statements that will never be published.
And yeah, I say in climbing, we focus on our field of play,
which is the wall.
But at those Olympic federations,
they do sport with sports.
And it's more like sport A against sport B
against sport C, who's better?
Yeah, who can get more presentation?
Yeah.
Whatever, yeah.
So no one knows exactly how those criteria are weighted
and taken into consideration.
But once you have seen all of this process,
it's like once you have climbed your project,
you know how it went.
Now it goes.
You know the beta.
And that's what we do now.
Now we sort of say, bolded our way
through this whole application process.
And we did it on site, I would say.
Like first trial.
It was the first trial we ever applied.
And we got accepted.
And you have to know that the Paralympic Games in 28
got 33 applications from 33 different sports, power sports.
And yeah, 22 were accepted right away.
And those are the 22 program sports,
which are the same like I know in Paris, 24.
And then the IOC, the IPC, granted local organizer, LA 28,
to decide if they want to have power climbing and slash
or power surfing as additional sports from their choice,
also into the Paralympic Games program.
And in 24, in June, it was published
that they did a long evaluation.
So we waited way longer than it was announced earlier.
Yeah, it was delayed.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was delayed.
And that shows that negotiations must have been really
tough behind the scenes.
And I was always like trying to calm everyone down,
because no one knows what was going to happen.
Just reading that just means like it could be like LA 28
would say like, OK, sorry, we cannot handle
any additional sport anymore, or just one, or two.
No one knew the outcome.
And I always said like, as long as there is no no,
someone is still hoping, believing, and working on it.
And yeah, finally, we were in.
Surfing was out.
And sorry for your surfing.
I'm sorry for power surfing exactly,
because they went together to the Olympics.
So it was skating, surfing, climbing,
who got together, included into Olympics.
And now power climbing is the only power sport of those three
who is into the Paralympics.
And I know that power surfing applied also
before even for Paris, but got rejected.
And power climbing just applied for the very first time for LA.
And we did not know how this process would go.
So we just with the when I started
as an athlete representative in 2009, in 2020,
it started like, OK, this is the plan.
This is where we're going to go.
And yeah, I would say we just met the right people.
We got the good ideas together.
And in the very beginning, I was talking
to many experts from these Paralympic teams.
So to say like, for example, National Paralympic
Commissions, chief classifiers from other sports,
they were all telling me like, yeah, you can try.
But chances that you're going to be in LA
will be like super, super small.
And then also knowing like who are our competitors,
so to say, for the sports, knowing those sports
are applying for each edition of the games again,
and again, and again.
And they get rejected, rejected, rejected.
And some also got excluded, for example, power sailing,
for example.
And if you get excluded, you apply again.
So those are sports which are well-settled.
They know the process.
And we were, so to say, like the new guys
on the scene who had no idea on how this actually goes.
And I still have the feeling that this is the case.
But never mind.
It's like if you see a line on a rock which you want to climb,
and you just say like no matter how hard or easy it is,
I just go for it because I like it.
This is my goal now.
And that's what we did.
Yeah.
I mean, sorry to Parasurfing.
And congrats on the on-site for getting into the Paralympics.
Thank you.
So do you know which sport classes
will be able to participate in the Paralympics?
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Back to the show.
At the moment, we don't know.
So now it's summer 24.
And according to the handbook, the final sport classes
at the final athlete and medal quarter
has always announced 3 and 1 half years, more or less,
before the game.
So that means mid 25.
We can expect that.
Maybe it would be towards the end.
So no one knows as deadlines are a bit moving.
But we expect this quota in 25.
And then it's up to the IFSC to decide
which sport class is going to get Paralympic
and which one's not getting Paralympic.
So as I said, we have 10 sport classes
at the moment for each gender.
We don't know how many medals we're going to get.
Would it be one, two, three, four, five?
I don't know.
Oh, wow, one is going to be hard.
One is going to be hard, yes.
And there will be tough decisions ahead of us.
And I hope the community will manage to stay together.
In other sports, this is a normal procedure already.
They are into it.
For our Paralympic community, it's always very challenging,
as everyone has to learn new things over time now.
And just for example, the introduction
of the new classification system.
So we were coming from a classification system
before we introduced the IPSC one, which was just
2 and 1 half pages long.
Now we have 50 pages, more or less.
So 5, 0 pages.
And these are the model rules that the IPSC
requires you to have, which are in those forms,
and let's say more or less applied in all sports.
And so that means they are well tested,
they are well prepared, and they have considered so many things
that we did not have in our 2 and 1 half pages of rules
that we had before.
But those rules were running fine for many, many years
in IPSC Paralympic.
So when it started 2011, there were several modifications.
But the biggest step now was definitely
when we introduced the IPSC-based classification
system and their rules.
And actually, it sounds a bit weird maybe,
but COVID helped us here.
Because we had one year without competitions.
And in this year, we had the time
to prepare and silence it without having
the rush of the running season to implement the new rules.
Think about our sports specific classification system,
because each par sport has his own set of individual rules
for the sport.
And someone had to invent it.
And the commission and an expert show greetings
to Sean Spencer, physio from Australia,
who was our pioneer just writing on a blank sheet of paper
the first lines on how this new classification system
for climbing should look like.
And since then, it was introduced in 21.
It was revised every year.
And if I look back and see the kind of modifications
that were done over the years, I would say the first draft
or the first version was already really, really good,
just coming from a blank paper.
And this is the hardest step.
And it's good to know that it's done now
and that we can just improve existing rules and work
on that instead of being challenged
with inventing something completely from you again.
So if we were only given one medal for the Paralympics,
what do you think would be the most likely sport
class to go in?
I don't know.
And I don't think that I'm in a position
to make guesstimations here.
But I can tell you the criteria that the IPC
is requesting this sport to fulfill.
So you need to show that you have gender equality.
So that means we have to have a sport class which has,
for example, not just men and no women,
but we still have that in one case.
Sadly, this is the AL1 sport class.
This is the leg amputee or, let's say,
loss of control and muscle power and neurological control
in both legs.
So those who are sitting in the wheelchair
and can't pressing everything, there we have,
over the past years, we developed a stable sport
class on the men's side, which is competing on their own
in each competition, but none on the women's side.
So for example, then it can tell you
this sport class would then not fulfill this gender equality
criteria.
Then you need to show a robust and precise classification
process for that sport.
So a sport class has to be well-defined and have,
let's say, a proper setup.
And there it starts with being a bit vague on, in my opinion,
to say what the IPC might mean with that.
And to be honest, I don't have too much insight
and comparison in between other power sports
and see what's a good setup in this case
and which one is a setup where you think it could be optimized.
I just don't know that.
And then the IPC is also in favor
of more severe sport classes.
So that's something they support.
And in general, I think that means
what they just want is a good show.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess that makes sense, yeah.
A decision will be made in 25, for sure.
And it will be for this edition of the Games Only.
I hope that also those sport classes who will not
be Paralympic will keep their spirit,
because this will have no effect on the IPC format
that we have inside our World Cup and World Championship
Series.
That will all stay the same and not be affected by that.
So we're not going to bend the sport for the Olympic setup in 28.
So it will remain the way it is.
And we're going to work on that.
And the Olympics is just one addition
on top of that, the existing thing.
But it's not going to feed back on the current format we have.
And I hope also National Federations will support
and keep sending those athletes who are not
in a Paralympic sport class.
And because we need this variety and we need also
these sport classes to grow.
Because we need to show that we have the numbers,
and that's also basically a requirement,
we need to show the numbers over the years
and the sport classes we want to propose
for potential future inclusion.
So if you, for example, would say, OK, let's just
say we get two medals in 28.
And everyone focuses just on those two sport classes
and just forgets on one of the eight,
I think we will lose a big part of the sport.
And this will be a huge mistake and would automatically
take away the chance from growing any further.
Because we need every sport class that we have.
And we need the numbers.
And even if it's just a single competitor
from a single country who is there
all over the consistently competing in all the years,
that's super important.
Because there's also one criteria
where you have to show that you have got a global reach
and relevancy with your sport.
So the athlete wants to see 32 competing countries
on a regular basis.
And it's also one of those criteria's
from the big list of the handbook.
And even more, to have a Paralympic sport class,
you need to show that you have got at least 10 athletes
from four different countries in both genders
over the whole period of statistics
you send for the application.
OK, yeah, we'll see what comes of that in 2025, I guess.
Moving on to your experience being athlete representative
and being chairman of the Paraclimbing Commission,
what do you feel like are some of the biggest issues you've
tackled so far doing that?
And what are some issues you're still working on
within Paraclimbing?
You had a transition from just being an athlete
to being a representative.
And suddenly, being in a position
in between the athletes and the IFSC,
sitting in between all of those chairs,
so to say, was really challenging in the beginning
for me because I had no one to ask or to get experience from.
I tried to.
I tried to reach out to the Able Body Athlete Commission,
but I failed in the beginning.
In the meantime, I have the contacts.
And no, I don't have the questions anymore.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
But at the time, I would have needed some help.
It was out there.
So that was a very tough time in the beginning
because I didn't know what I did not know.
And there's no handbook on this is how the IFSC works,
and this is how things go in the sport behind the field of play,
behind the scenes.
And you have to just go there and get as much
as you can get in that moment and then
puzzle together your picture on where you are,
what your possibilities are, and to learn how things go.
And the first thing I learned was that, yes,
as an athlete, as an individual sportsman or woman,
you have your mission.
You have your view on things.
But not necessarily does that mean that there's
other perspectives and opinions, for example,
from an event organizer, from the IFSC,
from the national federations.
And they can all be different.
And they all have good reasons for their position.
But when you're just an athlete, you don't know that.
You don't know the reasons.
You don't know why things are the way they are.
And I was then in a role also to explain things
towards athletes and say, look, not someone just
didn't get something or missed something.
That might have happened, sure.
But for many things, there's reasons
why things are the way they are.
And they are not safe, self-explanatory.
And then it's up to the athlete representative
to just explain those things and tries
to put some more explanation into things,
explain rules, explain changes.
And it was a tough time, especially
during all those rule changes, which for sure
produced lots of tears and drama.
Because, for example, the IPC-based classification
system introduced some things that were not existing before.
So from that moment on, the IPC has
a different of eligible impairments
that are allowed to compete.
And also a list of non-eligible impairments.
You can read it at the end of our classification rules.
They are in the resources on the IFSC page.
So if someone's interested to read all of that,
take a look in there.
Oh, I don't like it.
And it's an interesting read, in my opinion.
And my recommendation to all the athletes
is also to take a look in there.
And you will get a deeper understanding.
Because being a parathetic does not just
mean you have to play well on the field of play.
You also need to know the rules.
And it's not enough to just say, yeah, my coach knows
how it goes and he has to instruct me.
No.
You have to know on your own, and especially
in the very beginning, when you get your first classification,
when you're approaching that, it's a very important task
that you should prepare well.
And it starts way earlier than just,
I'm traveling to a competition and I'm seeing all paraclimbing
classifiers and I get the evaluation session
and they assign me a sport class and then I go to qualification.
No, it starts way earlier.
And that needs to be well prepared.
And those are things that were really
changing with the new system.
And also one thing which I think got most of the controversy
and tears and drama was the introduction of minimum
impairment criteria.
So that means there's a minimum level of impairment
defined for each sport class that you
have to fulfill to be eligible for competing.
Well, was that not there before?
It wasn't there before.
It was just a very vague definition.
But in some cases, it was there.
For example, in the visual impaired sport classes
or in I think the AL2 sport class also had a definition.
But for example, the RP sport classes,
so those who have limited range, power, stability,
so those with neurological and physiological impairments,
there was no real minimum impairment criteria defined
and also not really defined how it is assessed, et cetera.
And all of that is now defined.
And by having no limit there or minimum criteria
and by introducing one, there were
athletes who were competing before but then being excluded
and being not eligible anymore.
And those were even more than 10%
that we just lost with just introducing a new system.
And for sure, that got a lot of discussions, a lot of tears,
a lot of drama.
And it still happens that in these days
that people are coming to competitions
and then find out that they are not
eligible for the sport for whatever reason.
There might be many reasons, but it's not many cases.
And there is also a system which tries
to detect those people so that no one is traveling
halfway around the world to say that he's not
eligible to compete of what we want.
So that's why everyone has to also to submit
their medical documentation beforehand.
And that's why I say it's very important
that athletes understand it and their classification process
starts when they print out this form they need to fill out
by their medical doctor, which is then submitted to the IFSC.
And it's checked when they apply.
And if there are any questions, they're
getting back to the athletes and maybe warning people
and say, hey, you might be a borderline case.
Look on that.
Or we need additional documentation here.
So that's a way more robust and really way more professional
system we have now in comparison to what was there before.
So did these changes just take effect this year?
No.
This was introduced in 21 when the first version
of the IPC-based classification system
was introduced by the IFSC.
At this competition, it was in Sprook in 2021,
where all the athletes have to undergo classification again,
everyone, because no one had a valid classification.
No one had a valid sports class classification anymore.
So everyone had to go through the process again.
That's what we did.
And that's where the completely new field was set up.
And also, as not everyone was traveling
to this competition, there were, let's say,
also big classification sessions after this first competition.
And also, there are many possible outcomes
of a classification process.
Sometimes it's not just that you get a sport class, which
means, for example, like B1.
So that's the most severe visually impaired sport class.
You also get a sport class status,
which indicates how secure your classification, sport
class is.
So that means some, for example, have a confirmed status.
So I, for example, have one that's
where the medical experts say, OK, this
is a super stable condition.
It's not going to change.
It would stay the way it is, and that's it.
So then you get a confirmed status.
If, for example, your condition is subject to change,
for example, it's a progressing disease in whatever direction,
might improve or make it worse, whatever,
the classifiers might give you a fixed review date.
So that means, for example, they give you a fixed review date,
26, for example.
That means at the first occasion or before you
have the first competition in this year,
you have to undergo classification,
the classification process again from you again.
And also, you can have a review status, which means,
and you have to undergo classification again
at the next possible occasion.
And for example, if, so it's complex.
And I'm just describing some scenarios here.
There are even more possible outcomes,
but those are roughly the scenarios that exist.
And this status, by the way, either it's
so at different stages.
First, you submit the documents.
Documents are checked.
Then you travel to a competition.
Before the competition, there's the so-called evaluation
session where you see for the first time the medical experts,
the sport classifiers from our power sports or power climbing
classifiers.
They assess the athlete then and see the documentation,
see the athletes there.
They do specific tests based on their impairment.
So it's also described in the rule books
which tests they're going to run through.
And from those tests, you get a score and score that says,
OK, this is your sport class.
And after that, we start with the quantification session.
And in the quantification session, the, so maybe,
oh, sorry, forgot one thing.
In some cases, the classifiers may say, OK, we did now
hear our tests here on a test bench and our examination room.
But we want to see on the wall and do a so-called sport
specific test.
So for example, they say, like, OK, here's a ball of the wall
or here's a small top rope.
And you climb there.
And we let you do some moves.
They want to see the impairment in action.
So the classifiers can request that.
And after all of this assessment part,
they give the athlete a sport class
and sometimes also already sport class status.
But all of that is subject to observation
in the qualification session.
So our classifiers are watching the comp,
the qualification session, and then
see if the sport activity level on the wall
matches that what they assessed before in the evaluation
session.
And if, for example, I would pretend like,
oh, I don't get my arm further up than this
in the evaluation session on the bench test,
and then suddenly in competition, I'm like,
this up here.
And then for sure, our classifiers
might have some question.
OK, gotcha.
What happens?
Yeah.
That happens.
And that has, I would say, it can also
be like an impairment shows in a completely different way
than it was expected for.
Maybe it's a rare case.
No one has ever seen it before.
The classifiers have to discuss it again, for example.
And there can even be drastic decisions
at that time being taken.
So for example, the most severe action they can take
is to give someone the CNC sport class, that's
classification not completed.
So that means this person may not compete anymore.
So in this case means that your climbing
is over after the qualification, and you are not
allowed to climb in finals.
And in this case, this person has
to undergo the next possible occasion for classification
in order to compete again.
And in very severe cases, the classifiers
can also raise the case of intentional misrepresentation,
also known as cheating.
And if that's proven, it can lead up
to a ban from the sport for many years.
And I think we did not have any proven cases in climbing yet,
because if our classifiers are really like,
they know how to intervene and to say something in a way
like they don't have to bring all those super drastic measures
and to handle it in a good way.
But in other sports, this seems to be more of a topic
in other power sports.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
I would say to make this even complete,
there's also a case of protest and appeal
can also be raised against decisions.
But this very clearly defined on who may
protest against which decision.
And it's very complex.
It's a complete own section in the rule book.
But so if you're interested, read that.
And there can be very different reasons
why something happens in a power sport because
of classification rules.
And yeah, that's challenging sometimes
to explain to athletes and also as our classifiers have
to, yeah, there's strict confidentiality on those data
and those things.
So you would never be allowed, for example,
to accompany an athlete with a camera team
into a classification session.
That will never happen.
And so they will also never give a statement in public
on why a decision was made this way.
It's a strict confidentiality there.
But there are rules which are there for.
And there are also always ways on how to protest and appeal
against decisions.
So I guess the classification process kind of reminds me
of what you were talking about earlier when you were saying
that you have a big issue, and then you go to the doctor,
and you have to wait, and it just
happens to be better that day.
I guess what happens if you get classified
and then you climb in qualifiers and you just that day
happen to be kind of doing better or your impairment
is not as good?
Yeah.
You had a bad day in classification,
and next day you had a good day in qualification.
Yeah.
That can happen.
There are many impairments which are fluctuating,
or some are even, for example, temperature dependent.
There are impairments who depend on stress, for example.
And it's not an easy job for a classifier
to make this differentiation on what is impairment, what
is training, and what is, for example,
an aspect of the form of that day.
And our classifiers are experienced in climbing.
And some of our classifiers are also climbing
on a really, really high level.
So we have classifiers who climb up to 8A, 8B.
And sometimes they also test our routes, by the way,
if there is occasion for that.
And mostly that I really like that.
So maybe you get the chance to get also a classifier
on your podcast, because you already have
your route typed out.
So why not also classifier here and giving deeper insight
into that?
Because I'm no medical expert on that.
I can just explain from my experience
and what I saw in the sport and what I know from the rules.
But that's not the full picture, for sure.
And so this question you asked to me would be,
I would love to hear the answers from a classifier there.
And I know that when they watch athletes in the competition,
they discuss after qualification.
And this can take a long time.
So we know from everybody qualifications,
once they've climbed, that's the result list.
Then you have got this period where a protest can be raised.
And then after that period is over,
this is the final competition results.
You have the group which moves on to the next round.
That's it.
Closed.
It's closed.
And para climbing, this is not the case.
It can happen that the last climber is on the wall.
We are coming down.
There's the list of rankings.
And then the classifiers start their discussion
round on their observations.
And that can take a long time.
So maybe you go back to your hotel on the qualification day
and you still don't have the final list of results.
It can sometimes take hours before you
know the final sport class and sport class
status for each athlete.
And following that, also, where all class athletes
who were observed, are they still in the game?
And will they move to the next round or not?
And I mean, it doesn't happen that often
that we see big differences.
But here and there, there are people
who are, there are changes after qualifications.
So you just have to know that this
is the big difference in between everybody and para
in terms on how qualification works.
The qualification day works.
OK, I'll try to get a classifier on then.
Thank you for the explanation of classification.
It's a complicated process.
So I'm glad that we can get a little bit more information
out there about it.
But yeah, moving on to, I guess, more of your personal life
or non-competition life.
Certainly, a lot of athletes don't make much money
from climbing anyway, and unfortunately, even less
so in para climbing.
So I guess, what do you do for work?
So yeah, we have a few full-time athletes
in the para climbing community in the meantime.
And I hope that they are getting more and more.
With the focus and the exposure that we
get through the Paralympics 28, this will,
chances were increased.
Now is the moment for people to start.
And yeah, and some of you might also know my private projects,
the Solar Bike Project, where I built my own vehicle
that I used to get to the competitions this year.
And yeah, I have a very well-balanced sponsor
systems of my credit card, my other credit card,
my paypal account, and my bank account.
And I realized this year that it's not
as balanced as I thought.
OK.
Well, getting back to your question, yes, I've
got a job as freelance IT guy.
I'm doing server administration, website, e-commerce systems.
That's what my job looks like.
And the climbing part is free time.
But I'm in a situation that I can decide quite flexible
on my free time projects.
And as I said in the beginning, with my condition,
I'm closing spondylitis.
It's very important that I keep my flexibility,
that I keep my level of activity.
So even if I want or not, I have to live
a very active, athletic life.
So even if I would not be paragliding one day anymore,
on IFSC level, I will 100% continue climbing
and do some other things.
And I will always continue on some other projects.
So I will not focus, for example, just on climbing.
I would always go scuba diving.
And if I now I discovered hand cycling for me,
and I'm also doing other things, and I
will continue that also because I know it's very important
for my whole body to keep things balanced
and not to focus too hard on one thing.
If I just would, let's say, just focus on climbing,
I would maybe get a bit better.
But after that, it would go down because I would, so to say,
lose a bit.
It would be too specific in one direction,
the whole training, et cetera.
And I already feel it now as I've never hand
cycled that much before.
I now feel how my body changes.
And my body reacts quite hard on changes.
For example, I then start to get more muscle
tonus in my shoulders, on my neck.
And that will then lead to more pain there.
And my body has to adapt slowly to that.
So I should never train too much just on one thing
because it will always have bad consequences for me.
So I have to do some things, see how my body adapts,
give him also some time, readjust a bit,
and be quite careful with the level of intensity
that I put on it.
Going back to the solar hand bike,
I figured that that is a very time-consuming project.
And maybe you would have some kind of engineering background
to work on it.
How did you get the idea to work on this project?
Since I was a kid, I was always playing around
and with scale models, et cetera.
That was my background, like cars and trains, et cetera.
When I was a kid and I was learning
how to solder cables, et cetera, and electricity and things,
I always had a fascination for that.
And I actually never lost that.
So I always had projects.
Since I was in school, I, for example, developed in school,
I developed a system that scale model cars, which
were driving independently, recognized each other
and reacted and adapted their speeds together, et cetera,
and even went to science competitions with that,
where kids could participate and even got to the highest
level you can get in Germany with that.
And also, when I was studying, I always
had a little corner in my room where I had some things to like,
had to just work on things.
And I was always having projects, sometimes more,
sometimes less.
And when I moved to Spain, I had the vision
of building something on my own to combine
the power of solar, electric, with the things
that I have to get a vehicle where I can get
the maximum distance with things that are accessible for me.
And so it turned out that I ended
with something like, which was based on e-bike technology,
so assisted electric aid.
And I combined that with solar to get the maximum distance
and maximum independence.
And I started this project actually,
now it's even more than one and a half years ago.
And I was working for it for many, many months in silence
behind closed doors and told no one about it.
And just very shortly before Innsbruck,
I made it public that I'm going to go with it to Innsbruck,
1,000 kilometers.
I had the vision long, long time before in my mind,
but I was working hard on it to get there.
And there was moments where I was pretty sure,
oh, this is not going to work out.
And in the beginning, I was just, I mean, it's a prototype.
I had no instructions and no things
I could copy paste from.
I just had an idea in my mind.
I had all my little toy engineering,
playing background from my childhood, many as a child.
And it's like, actually, I'm still doing the same,
but just the scale change.
Now I just, I don't let cars, little cars or trains,
whatever drive around.
Now I'm just sitting in my vehicles that I built
and I'm driving with them.
So I'm still doing the same, but just the scale and distance
has changed.
And I tested a lot on my Yorker here.
So I did the round around the island twice.
The short version was like 250 kilometers in two days.
And the long one was then three days for 400 kilometers
with a lot of mountains in between.
So it was, I think, 4,000 meters of altitude
to climb, 5,000 to the ground.
And the road to Innsbruck then was 1,000 kilometers.
And I think at the end, it was more than 12,000 meters
of altitude to climb up with a bike,
because I had to cross the Alps.
And yes, yeah, Innsbruck is in the middle of the mountains.
If you see around the beautiful scenery
around the credit center, you see the alpine background
around there.
Those were basically the mountains
I had to cycle over with my own bike.
There's not a river going all the way from Spain to Innsbruck.
I could just follow.
No, no, no.
And I just announced it.
Actually, it was officially announced
in the livestream of Salt Lake.
And it was not planned.
I just told Matt about the crazy idea.
And I said, I think I'm going to make it public then soon.
And he just decided to talk about it,
to tell in public about it in the livestream.
It was in May, it was in early May, it was early May, 2024,
exactly.
And then I stayed even longer in the US.
I came back from the US.
And I just had two weeks in Spain to get the bike ready
and to depart for Innsbruck.
Yeah, I mean, you had to, because he
mentioned it on the livestream.
No, I also wanted to.
The ferry was already booked, et cetera.
So I'm sure if something would have gone wrong.
And a lot of things went wrong along the way.
Don't get me wrong, there was a big chance
that I wouldn't make it.
But I did it.
I had a broken spoke in the front wheel.
And it was seriously deforming.
And I couldn't get it fixed on the way.
I tried to add lots of technical issues on the way.
But I had a big toolbox with me.
And I could fix everything along the way that I made it there.
And at the end, it took me seven days to Innsbruck
for 1,000 kilometers.
Not bad.
Now, it's an average of 150 kilometers per day.
But the longest day was even, say, far more.
It was like 212 kilometers on a single day.
And it was the last day, just following a river in downhill.
What was the nicest part?
The nicest part?
Yeah.
Oh, there were so many moments.
But one, I think, was the first highlight
was for me to be in Briehnsan with the bike.
So the place where I had my first World Cup ever in 2017.
And I was many times in Briehnsan by car
before for the World Cups there.
And then when I was there, I crossed the village
in the very morning.
I even just literally stopped by at the new competition wall.
And that was at 6 in the morning,
because then I went over the Maloja Pass over to Italy.
And that's a very steep road where you have to climb.
And it's the only road which exists in between France
and Italy in that part of the Alps.
And so there's normally heavy traffic.
And very often, I tried to avoid heavy traffic
by going in early hours, which was a really, really good plan.
And at that day, I even went further to Turin,
and I stopped by the IFSC office.
And that was just I had different versions of routes
I want to go.
And then I decided, OK, I'm going to take the middle route,
not following the Mediterranean Sea,
and not going through too much through Switzerland.
So I decided to take the middle way right through France,
then Italy.
And so I said, like, just as a joke, like, hey,
if I'm in Turin, for sure I'm going
to stop by at the IFSC office and say hello.
And it's like, I mean, if Marco Scolaris is there,
he can take a look at the bike and make a picture or whatever
if he wants to.
And at that time, I didn't even know, will he be there,
or will the others be there?
And is he actually interested in the project or not?
I mean, it's cycling.
It's not climbing, right?
At the end, it turned out the IFSC
shared all of my stories for like nine days, I think.
And I was really wondering, like, guys, are you serious?
Because it's like, this is cycling content.
Yes, I'm going to climbing contitution,
but this is not climbing, right?
It's a different sport.
And it was not them to do it.
They just decided, like, hey, we're going to capture it.
And yeah, and Marco Scolaris even wanted to ride the bike.
So he was not there.
He was there, and he's like, I can also drive.
And then he was driving on the sidewalk for 20 meters.
That was a really unexpected highlight.
And then one of the biggest challenges,
and I think it was a day I will never forget,
because it was the day where the press release was published
that LA 28 decided to include power
climbing for the Paralympics.
And that was the day where I was driving up the Maloja Pass
from Italy to Switzerland, which means you have to climb up
1,600 meters of altitude.
You start at 200 meters above sea level,
and it's like 30 degrees.
And then you go up over 40 kilometers,
and the first 30 kilometers are just warm up.
And then it really kicks in at the last 10 kilometers
with an inclination of up to 18%, which is a lot.
I just can't go at that.
And that ratio can only go at like 2 kilometers per hour.
So you just see line by line, and you can count them.
And it takes forever.
Slower than walking.
Yes, exactly.
It's slower than walking.
And in control, overheating in the middle of the climate,
you have to stop at this tiny corner and cars and trucks
passing by, et cetera.
And Europe roads are not as wide as they are in the US,
by the way.
It just fits one car in, and that's it.
Boom.
There's not half a meter left and right, and that's it.
And when I was up there then, it was an incredible moment.
And the temperature was just barely above freezing.
And then it started to rain.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
And then I was searching for the next hotel,
and then being in a hotel.
And then it was published with Paralympics.
And that was the day for me where I will never forget,
because from my feeling, I got two gold medals on that day.
First for, so to say, the Olympic being accepted medal
for working so hard on that project.
And so to say, reaching that, and then also challenging
the challenge, the steepest thing I've ever
done with my bike, just getting that done on the same day.
That was an incredible moment.
And after that, after Innsbruck, I continued to Germany
to my parents' home, 600 kilometers more to go.
And when I left the Alps, there was another,
it's the so-called Scharnpass Road.
It's also a road which has huge traffic, just two lanes,
one per direction.
And everyone has to go on that road.
And during the day, there's always traffic jams.
So if you want to go there by bike,
this is actually a suicide project, I would say.
So I decided to go to cycle over the Scharnpass by night.
And so I started at 10 in the evening
and finished at 2 with an empty battery
right at the German border.
And then I was sleeping in my hammock below the solar roof
for the first time.
Never tested it before, and it was a fantastic experience.
And now on my way back to Spain, I know the weak points.
I collected a lot of data.
I also published all the data of how much solar
power did I consume, how much did I charge from the grid,
and how was the efficiency, et cetera,
how was the daily distance, the average speed, the altitude
climb.
And I got some really interesting insights
from all of that data.
So I now have to work on an improved level.
And I'm trying to get, I will have an improved bike
waiting for the way back to Spain.
So I intend to go with the bike to Bilal.
And I'm pretty sure I will get new records and even bigger
distances with the bike.
And yeah, we'll see.
I mean, I also learned along the way
that I'm not the only solar biker out there.
In the very beginning, I thought I'm the first one with the idea.
But along the way, I discovered that actually not new.
And there is an organization out there,
which is called the SunTrip, which
is doing solar races things 2013.
And they do way more impressive distance than I do.
So hand bikes or just regular bikes?
Well, a few hand bike, as I just know of one case,
they are all pedaling a leg.
So that's also a completely different level
of what you can do there.
And they also have recumbent bikes.
They have velvo builds.
So that's completely aerodynamic, packed
recumbent bikes that they have, like it's
the most efficient machine that you
can have for converting human into a movement energy.
And combine that with solar, and you
get the most incredible, let's say, numbers.
And you can get, so the record for that is at the moment
on 475 kilometers on a single day.
Yeah, imagine that.
So in comparison to that, my 212 looks
like I would say tiny.
I guess it's like half.
But do you have the data published
anywhere of your journey?
Yes.
Yeah, I published the data.
And I'm going to publish even more data and also
my improvements.
And I will evaluate every improvement I do
and decide on, I will make it public.
And I've filmed a lot.
I will also edit the video about the journey
et cetera, and cover more material in the future.
And we'll see what goes.
It's time consuming.
But I just love it.
It's like you cannot describe the feeling of you
build something which completely on your own, which
is way more than a bike.
And it's less than a car.
And it drives the distances that you could never think of before.
And I did something which is completely impossible
with a normal bike.
And I just did it with a solar electric hand
bike and a lot of luggage.
Yeah, I'll link the videos that you had sent me
as well in the description.
Yes, and more to come soon there.
So if I find the time aside my work and the ongoing project
and climbing and everything else, I would need a 48 hours
day actually.
Yeah, that's a lot.
But we'll keep an eye out.
So yeah, for the last question, we'll
bring it back to climbing.
You mentioned that you actually mostly prefer outdoor climbing
and do a lot more of that.
What's been your proudest outdoor achievement
in your life?
Well, that's a tough question.
My very first first ascent.
All right.
Where was it?
And off with chimney.
I don't like that, but OK.
It was a scary thing.
I saw the line.
I saw like, I want to do this.
How is the process?
And I had people who taught me on that
and showed me how to place bolts, et cetera.
And that's how I started into that.
And this is generally doing first ascent, I would say,
will always stay something extraordinary.
And just doing a hard project, for example.
So yes, I also think about my hardest routes
that I ever climbed, but I think the first ascent
that I did there, those are all special memories
because it's a process.
You go somewhere, you see a line, you think about it,
you clean it, and then you work on it,
and you don't know, is it possible,
or isn't it possible, whatever.
And then hopefully there's a moment where you can climb it.
And as I was saying, which is like bouldering
is for your body, sport climbing is for your brain,
and multi-pitch is for your soul.
What was the first, like, did you name it?
Or is it like, can you find it somewhere?
Oh, yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's named, it's a German name.
It's named Friedhofs Kamin.
In English, that's a graveyard chimney.
And it's named, it's always, you have to know,
a name of a route always has to have connection
to the route.
And in this specific section, it's in Germany,
and there were old queries where they cut off basalt columns
for construction purpose.
And so that they left big holes in the ground.
And on those walls, there's climbing today.
And in those holes in the past, also people dumped that trash.
There was one, yeah.
And there was one corner where the, I don't know how the word,
there was the person who builds the graveyard blocks of where
you inscribe the name, et cetera, on rock.
I don't know what it's called, but yeah.
Yeah, but someone is doing that, right?
And sometimes they engrave things in the wrong way,
or something breaks, whatever.
And they put this trash also in those holes.
And so below this chimney, I was doing my first ascent in,
it was full of graveyard blocks where I just inscribed,
oh, this was this name lived from, whatever.
And you were standing on those blocks
and climbing in the chimney down above.
That's where the name is coming from.
So I know you're not a story.
Awesome.
OK, good to know.
And I guess that's a good place to end it,
climbing on graveyard blocks.
Yeah, that's all the questions I had.
I guess, was there anything else you
wanted to have a last word on, if not the graveyard blocks?
That's where power climbing should not end, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a bit dark.
Yeah, I'm really proud of the whole community.
And I want to thank everyone who was involved
in the whole process until now.
And as I said before, my life always
puts me in a situation or gives me a presence where
I would say the year before, it's never
going to happen, or I don't even dare to dream of that.
And I think this time now is the beginning of something
completely new for the sport itself.
And it will change the sport.
And I expect there will be a big focus on power climbing,
a focus which has never been seen before,
because we are really unknown.
Power climbing is not that known in the whole power sport
family.
And I think many sports didn't have it on their list,
that power climbing actually did big steps in the last years.
And so we will be on the biggest stage of the sport,
of sports, of power sports, which is there in the world.
And I'm proud that we will get the chance
and show that there's almost no disability which
can stop you from climbing.
And just show that climbing is there for almost everyone.
And we love climbing.
And I hope that we can just share it with others
and spread the word of power climbing.
All right, that's a better statement to end on.
So yeah, for people who want to follow your journey
with the solar hand bike and climbing in general,
where can they find you?
Yeah, I'm on social media.
You can just search my name.
And also on YouTube, I hope I find a time to do more there.
And yeah, that's why I'm going to document
more things from my life.
I also do conferences so far just in German.
They're also on YouTube in full versions.
I wrote a book also in German.
So yeah, that's also part of me.
But I don't do these things just for my own.
I also share my experience, share my knowledge.
And in order to, I always hope I can inspire others.
Because I also got lots of inspiration from others.
And I think humanity wouldn't be where it's now
if we wouldn't share things.
Otherwise, we would still sit somewhere in a cave
and hide the fire from others that they don't see it.
And I think it's very important that, yeah, share things,
share experiences, share ideas.
And that's what I do.
I share the things that I experience in my life
because I think it can inspire others to achieve bigger,
to achieve greater things.
That's what I do.
And did you mention the name of your, or like, Instagram?
Or your YouTube?
Well, yeah, it's Sebastian Depke, basically, to go.
It just, if you search my name, Sebastian Depke,
you will find me on the different platforms.
I'll leave the links in the description as well.
OK, well, thank you for joining me.
And it was amazing to talk to you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast.
Don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed.
Otherwise, you are a super fake climber.
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on the free competition climbing Discord linked
in the description.
Thanks again for listening.