It was shocking how bad the gyms have gotten in the Bay. If you're doing every competition,
you're kind of just getting worse throughout the season. I'm not just a professional climber.
I don't do well in a competition or whatever. It's not the end of the world.
I wasn't very good at running. That's the only time I've ever actually thrown up from training.
Welcome to the season three premiere of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast.
I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce my guest, Ross Fulkerson. Ross is a bouldering
lead climber on Team USA, and you may be familiar with his YouTube channel where he documents his
climbing adventures and shares coaching tips. In this episode, we'll learn about his bikepacking
adventure that he skipped the first half of the 2024 World Cup season for, hear about his struggle
trying to balance competitions with his desire to travel and all his other hobbies, the importance
of mindset and meditation. And if you're a USA Bay or you're a gym climber, maybe close your ears
when he starts trashing the Bay Area gym scene. This episode is full of training and mindset tips,
so I hope you learn a lot and enjoy this episode with Ross.
I got back from Colorado. Well, I left right after qualifications because I knew I wasn't
going to make semis and I didn't want to spend the extra money. And I also figured maybe I would be
like sad from how bad it went. So I didn't want to extend my trip. It ended up well actually. So
I'm pretty happy about that. Nice. Next time you got to have the confidence to book the Airbnb
for the extra night or two. Well, I mean, I'm still pretty far from semis, but I was mostly
worried that I just like wouldn't be able to establish on any of them. Or my goal was to like
get a zone and I ended up getting three tops in a zone. So very happy with that. It went well.
Yeah, that's awesome. I think the love is always more attainable than you think. Even like World
Cups and stuff like that. Like, it's not that hard if you like, at least not all of them, you know?
But it's just the like execution piece that becomes really tricky because you like build it
up to be like this super big ordeal to like climb, but they're just moves, you know?
Yeah. I mean, I didn't know what to expect going into it. So I didn't know what the level would be,
but I think you know like Enrico, right? Yeah. Yeah. He was one of like the first
really good coaches I worked with. I grew up coming to San Diego and working with him.
I was working with my coach Al. They used to both like kind of round the training center at Mesa Rim.
Yeah. So they are also like doing like the adult team here. And so he was like helping me through
some stuff and he mentioned that like some of the grades of the boulders there might be like
V4, V5-ish. And I guess that was pretty accurate. Like I didn't feel like I needed to use more
strength than that, but it was just like kind of finicky and precise. Yeah. They punish you if you
like don't do them well, but if you do them well, it's not too bad. Are you back in San Diego? Yeah.
I just got back. I was in San Francisco for a week seeing my family and climbing around with some
old friends there. And it was shocking how bad the gyms have gotten in the bay. Like,
Whoa, wait, I need to hear about this. Yeah. Pretty much like touchstones are like the worst
gyms I've ever climbed at now. Like Dogpatch used to be like such a sick gym and we would climb
there like once a month growing up. But now like everything is so, so greasy and the setting is
pretty suboptimal. And yeah, I was just shocked by like how bad it got because they used to be like
some of the best gyms in the nation. I think at least when I was climbing there and yeah, overall
the level in the bay area is pretty, pretty low apart from like benchmarks, mosaic and
obviously the Boulder field, but that's not really the bay. But it was interesting. I felt like I
had to learn how to climb it's completely different way because the holds are so greasy and
I touched them and like acid wash their holds or at least they used to. So they like instead of
power washing them, they like get rid of the chalk and like this fat. I think this is how it's been
explained to me. So apologies if this is no longer accurate, but it like takes away all the texture
and they just have so many people climbing on those holds that they just get so nasty so quickly.
So they were like, yeah, I had to like completely real think about like how to engage on holds
because it's almost like gets more slippery like the harder you squeeze. So I just did a bunch of
volume on like easier things where I could still climb efficiently and not like feel like I was
actively getting worse at climbing. But anyways, I feel very grateful to be back here in San Diego
and back at the grotto and like I was at North City this morning and the wall this morning as
well. Oh nice. Okay. And yeah, I did like warm up and then did some hard boulders with the class
five team and then went to North City and did some speed sport laps on like a couple really cool
like 13s there. I wonder what the Bay Area listeners are going to think about you trashing
their gyms. I mean, I'm from the Bay Area. I feel like that they were really good and like the Bay
Area was the strongest at least youth wise like in the nation for a little while. Like when I was
competing, like my category like eight out of the 10 finalists at nationals were from the Bay Area
and that was like true for a lot of categories. And then everyone kind of moved away and I guess,
yeah, it just feels like it got very, very corporate where gyms don't really care about
like setting well or like as long as they're making money, you know, they're like, okay,
like onto the next gym, let's just do more and more and more instead of training setters. And a
lot of that's like not even the setters fault, right? Because they're just given really shitty
holds, excuse me, really bad holds. And like no one's teaching them how to set like they need to
be like clinics and actually that's something I would love to do at one point is like at least
my coach Hal is thinking about doing like setting for or setting clinics and stuff like that.
But yeah, overall, I think San Diego is a much more critical approach to climbing and like trying
to actually understand why a move is hard or easy or like from a setting perspective set to
actually teach something. And that was a big thing we try and do with our clinics, like the one that
you took, like making a move actually forced the climber to climb it well, and not allowing a move
to let someone like take advantage of it because it's because they're stronger, whatever that is,
you know?
Yeah, I was really happy with that clinic. Because it happened like right before the comp, and I felt
like leading up to it, I wasn't, I had kind of lost confidence and like more comp style stuff. I
don't know why I just like hadn't gotten on much. So I kind of like needed that refresher to build
up the confidence going into it. Because I feel like also it's like partially mental just like how
confident you feel on those types of moves. So it's really helpful.
Yeah, I think confidence in climbing in general, and especially in comp climbing is
so so important and doesn't really matter what your like hardest capability is. It just matters
like how confident you can be in like a four or five minute round on the moves in front of you. So
that level is not always going to be like pushing like your like ideally your level is at the point
where you're not having to learn the movements of the climbs that are in the comp. And you can
execute those like at a subconscious level. We actually talked about this a bunch at practice
today. Like the difference between practicing and learning moves versus performing is is very
different. It takes being very intentional about which one you're doing to like actually make the
most of it. Because today I was trying this campus sequence, and very much in like the learning moves
side of things. And I had a video and like, my coach and my buddy Marco are both watching and
then give feedback. And I tried it like 30 times, you know, and just getting like repetition getting
data. And then I'd kind of try it again, have a different like visualize, okay, what am I trying
to focus on now? Try that once or twice to see if it like makes sense. And then I'd kind of
make a difference. And then once you put all these pieces together, right, you're you're chunking them
down to manageable adjustments. And then you put the whole thing together. And at that point,
everything should just be flowing kind of subconsciously. So I got it at the end.
Actually, no, I didn't do it. But I felt the movement, like the flow, like the generation of
it all. You could visualize yourself do it. Yeah, exactly. Next practice, I'll go back to it.
And not be in like that super like, thinking state of mind, you know, and just try and execute it
kind of at a subconscious level. And then it's like added to your your movement library. I don't know
if we talked about that in the clinic, but that's kind of a fun way to think about moves is like,
you learn it, and then it's like added to your movement library. And then anytime you see in a
comp or whatever, you're like, okay, this is like the formula for this move. Like if it's a last
day, right, like extending and generating making time over the feet. And your body just knows how
to do those moves. And that's when it becomes really easy to like execute it in a comp and
feel confident enough to like, just throw yourself at it. And that like learning process is huge for
it. Because it just, sometimes it takes a long time to figure out. But then hopefully, once you
get it, you get it. Yeah, once it clicks, like that's such a rewarding feeling. And I need to
do a better job at like, seeking out more of those learning experiences, you know, because
sometimes you try and move and I go, oh, that's impossible. And it takes
like an hour or two. And like seeing your friends try and do it and like really working through it.
And then once you do it, you're like, okay, this is easy. Why? Why was I struggling on this?
Yeah, and we'll get into the mindset stuff later. But before we even get into like,
anything, I know people have already been wondering why you weren't at the first few World Cups of the
year. So what were you up to? Yeah, this was an interesting year. From the get go, I was
more psyched on competing in ropes, just because there's a lot of outdoor projects, I want to
pursue that are more rope oriented or deep water solo stuff. And then I qualified for the
bouldering World Cup, which was kind of a bonus and was planning to do Salt Lake. But then this
really cool bike packing trip slash climbing trip came up. And it was a pretty unique opportunity
and something completely outside of my comfort zone. So I kind of figured I could do Salt Lake
next year. Because I've been focused on ropes, I didn't feel like I was going to be able to show
up to Salt Lake and like truly do my best like perform to the best of my abilities. And I feel
fortunate to be in a position where like I've made finals at that comp. So it's like, well,
if I'm not going to show up in that same shape or better, like, what's the point? Or like not
what's the point, but there's less to learn. If I'm not like fully committing myself, and it feels
like it just didn't feel right in my gut to like, show up with only a couple weeks of like proper
World Cup bouldering training. So I did this bike packing trip instead where we biked from
South Lake Tahoe all the way to Lone Pine, actually Alabama Hills. And that took like six days,
it was like 400 miles, and I hadn't really done any road biking and stuff before that. But it was
so beautiful just spending camping under the stars and jumping in the river in the morning.
And we were going at a pretty mellow pace. And a couple of the guys were really experienced who'd
done it before. So we camped at these cool hot springs and explored all these amazing zones along
the way. And then right after the trip, we actually took one night or one day, we drove from
Mammoth all the way to LA, got to LA at like 530. Then went to the American Alpine Club Gala dinner,
did that till like 1230. And then took an Uber from there back to Santa Barbara, got my car there
because I had carpooled out to South Lake with a buddy, then slept for like three hours in my car
and then drove all the way back to Bishop that morning at six to meet up with the whole crew
and then finish the last day of biking. So I missed like a 20 mile section going downhill from
Mammoth to Bishop. But then I joined them for the last, I think it was like 45 mile day from
Bishop to Alabama Hills.
Sounds intense.
And then the next day we woke up, yeah, early, drove all the way back to Bridgeport and then
hiked into the Hulk, which is this epic huge wall, like pristine granite. But it was very much
early season, like we were the first party to do it, I think. So we like camped near the base,
like three miles from the base and then woke up at four, put crampons on and like hiked all the
way into the base of the wall. And normally people climb it like starting now, but we were like out
there and wanted to kind of incorporate it into this whole bike and climbing trip. So we went with
this Chilean guy who has like climbed all over Patagonia and had a photographer and she was like
super experienced with like big wall alpine stuff as well. So it felt like a proper adventure. We
climbed that and then wrapped down in the dark and then hiked slash like slid down the ice all the
way back to camp and then like got lost and had to cross a river and then walk through a swamp and
got back to the campsite at like 11. And then I drove back to San Diego the next day and got into
sport training mode. Geez, that is intense. So anyways, that's long story short, that's why I
wasn't at the Salt Lake World Cup. Wow. That's really intense. I mean, it sounds like a lot of
little sleep and a lot of exhaustion. Did you enjoy it overall?
Yeah, no, it was so fun. I felt like the whole part was like definitely a mission, but the bike
packing trip, like by the end of it, you feel like you could just go forever. Because we were,
again, like we were doing like 40 miles a day, so like nothing crazy and we had a group of like six
people. So you get to like chat with everyone as you're biking and the scenery is amazing just
going down 395. And then we took a bunch of like side roads too, that were obviously way quieter
than the highway and safer and really scenic. And then yeah, it's a fun routine, like wake up,
go jump in the river, stretch a bit, make some coffee, then ride for two hours, stop for lunch
or make lunch. And then ride for another couple hours at night, set up camp, make a campfire,
play some music under the stars. Everyone was like a musician or just had like fun stories to tell.
And I only had known one of the guys beforehand, so it was kind of fun to meet this whole new
crew of people. I think eventually we'll have a video that kind of showcases that whole trip.
It was a fundraiser for the Nick Wood Foundation and the lead climbing on the Hulk was like amazing.
It was one of, I think I had done like six or seven trad leads before that and then I led like all
the hardest pitches on positive vibration, which are not that hard, but they felt hard for me
because I was just very much still learning that whole process or not even like I was placing gear
well, but it was kind of fun to bring like that competition, like performance mindset to like
trad climbing on a big wall where you're like exposed and there was actually 60 mile an hour
winds for the entire day. Again, yeah, very much the wrong time of year to do that,
but it kind of added to the experience and like placing gear. I was like so bricked on this one,
like five 11C pitch at the top and like their rope drag was insane because I had not put slings on
like the right cans and then you're just like pumped out of your mind like having to use both
hands to like, well, I like got to the anchor, like run out with like a 0.0 and a 0.1, like 10
or 15 feet below and then you do like this big move to this like ledge and mantle the ledge and
the wind is like pushing you off a little bit and I had to have like both hands to like pick the rope
up to like pull it up and clip the anchor, but that was one of my maybe like most favorite climbing
experiences I've ever had because it's just so different and you feel like you're learning so
much and also like incorporating so many things that you would use in other situations. Like I
was doing the same like breathing techniques and like visualization and mindset stuff that I would
do before a bouldering world cup and that yeah, just allows you to perform at a higher level,
11C level. Well, I mean with the added danger element, I guess. Yeah. Well, that I can't really
relate to that because I kind of stopped climbing outside generally like during like after COVID.
I got kind of sick of it and that's when I got into the comp space. So I think that climbing is
a little bit too real for me. This is the not real climbing podcast. So we're gonna bring it back in
into the not real climbing portions. Yeah. But it's really cool how you can relate that to like the
kind of mindset stuff that you have to do for comps as well. And yeah, it sounds like a lot of fun,
just not an experience that I would ever want to do. It sounds way too intense. Yeah, it was a long,
pretty long day. But I think understandable why you skipped the Salt Lake comp for that.
I guess when it comes to choosing which world cups you go to, how do you get into the comps?
How do you go to how do you sort of decide? Because I guess with like the prize money not being like
that much, how like what makes it worth it for you to go to a World Cup? Yeah, I mean, that's a great
question. And I think it was kind of only this year that I asked myself that. And it was a lot
harder to answer it after having some of these like big adventurous outdoor experiences, where
I was feeling that same amount of like connectedness and using the same techniques. But it was like on
my own schedule and where I could I felt like be more present for like a longer period of time.
So for comps, I mean, growing up, it would just was like it seemed like an amazing way to like
go travel and experience this side of climbing that I hadn't kind of been exposed to yet. And
like traveling on the circuit was really, really cool in that in that way and a really fun
place to meet new people and like travel to all these countries. But it was definitely a hard
balance to be like, why? Like, if you're doing every competition, like you're kind of just getting
worse throughout the season, like traveling like that much is so taxing and it becomes hard to like
justify in some ways. So like this year, my intention was like, okay, I want to do a couple
comps because I really love competing. And I like like, try to challenge myself and test myself in
these like very high pressure situations. And I think that's when you're able to learn the most
about yourself, but also like all of these movement frameworks and like mindset techniques and things
that I'm trying to help develop and ultimately coach more of in the future. So like that was
why I didn't do Salt Lake. It's like, okay, I don't want to go to a World Cup unless I'm
going to show up like fully prepared. And like that's definitely a very privileged situation
to be in because I've like done these comps before and I know what it feels like to show up and
having not been prepared. And it just kind of feels like, I don't know, a bit icky where you're like,
oh, I'm like, I'm here. But like, I'm not able to like show or like prove to myself like that I'm
capable of like, getting to finals or whatever it is, because I know I am but like, I didn't put in
the work to get there. So I definitely this year, I'm trying to do less, but just do it, do it better.
And it's hard for me to say no to somebody's opportunities. Like the adventure and the
actual comp climbing and all these different, even like, if there's good waves in San Diego,
I'm supposed to retrain like, oh, I want to like take advantage of the surfing and then also go
climb and like, if you're just really practical about it, you're like, okay, well, that's actually
gonna like make you worse at climbing. So I think it's always like a little bit of a trade off.
And it's important to like, live your life and like, do what really brings you
do joy. But yeah, asking that question to yourself is huge. And if it's
anything but like, it's because I really want to. And there's a hundred reasons why like,
you could really want to do a comp. But it's dangerous when it's like, oh, it's because like,
I should or like, XY, like these people think I should or like, because I could do well. But
if you don't believe in like your own ability to like do really well and like, or believe in
yourself to like, learn and like, make the most of the experience, then maybe it isn't worth doing
it, you know? Please excuse this brief intermission, but I've gotten a few requests for this. So I just
wanted to announce that if you're interested in helping support the show, my Patreon page is now
live. Some perks include ad free interruption free episodes, deleted scenes, prioritized guest
questions, or the ability to submit video questions, an enamel pin is shipped to you after two months
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on monetarily, liking, commenting and sharing helps a great deal as well. Back to the show.
Yeah, it's usually like one of my first questions. But for those who like don't know your story,
how did you start out with climbing and get into the comp scene?
Yeah, so I guess I really started climbing on the redwood trees in our front yard. So I grew up
near Palo Alto in the Bay Area. And we had like this 80 foot tall redwood tree in our front yard.
And my dad and I built a tree house like 50 feet up in it. And I guess when I was like really young,
we had a couple like ladders going up to like lofts in our house, and I would like climb around
on those. Or so I'm told. And then once my dad kind of taught me the rules of climbing the big
trees, he's like, all right, always have like three points of contact and like, be safe. But that was
like, it was just a big ladder. It's like the most climbing friendly tree I've ever been in.
So you could like run around and I have a clip on my Instagram like from five years ago or something
of me like speed climbing the tree and you can like, just monkey like actually speed climb it.
It was like 10 seconds to go up like 45 feet or something. So and then I did, I think I had my
own birthday party at the gym when I was seven. Yeah, just because my mom was like, oh, like this
would be a fun thing to have a birthday party at. And then the next year I did the same thing. And
then I did some summer camps after that when I was like nine. And then I think I joined the team
after that when I was like 10. Or maybe like in between nine and 10. That was at Planet Grand
at Sunnyvale, which is a really cool gym. Like I went back there this last week actually. And the
lead walls are like so intimidating. There's this one feature called the double wave, which is,
it still feels like one of the most like proud gym features. Because it's just like super overhung
and like has these like double wave features, hence the name, where if you like fall at the
wrong spot, you kind of just like smack into the slip. So yeah, growing up, I trained a lot there
and was fortunate to have a really cool coach, Isaac Williams, who always brought the team
outside. So we go to Bishop for like Christmas and Thanksgiving and climbed a lot out there
and a little bit in Yosemite and Tahoe. And had an amazing group of friends and teammates there
that really shaped kind of the climbing community that I was part of. And we had a couple older guys
on the team that we like, myself and a couple of the younger kids like really looked up to. And
when I started on the team, they were like climbing B10 sort of thing. And that just like provided this
benchmark of like, okay, like I want to train with them and I want to go project and like climb on
the same things that they're doing. And yeah, so I did a bunch of youth comps, like, I guess the first
actual comp I did was like second year D. So wasn't like some of the other youth or I feel like some
of the kids like Brooke and I don't know, a lot of the other like phenomenal climbers of our generation
started climbing when they were like, they had like four years in D, you know, in youth D. But I only
had one year in youth D. What age does that start for people who aren't familiar? I think you can
be any age up to like 10 or maybe like 11 or 12. Still really young, yeah. Yeah, quite young.
Maybe it's maybe it's only like 11 or 12. And then there's like C, D, or yeah, D, C, B, A, and then
junior. And I did, I was like, I did better at ropes at the very beginning. I won like nationals
in like youth C, like after three years or something of competing. And then like made a couple like
bouldering finals but never did super well in the finals. I kind of just did the whole like youth
youth circuit every year I could. Apart from one year where I accidentally sanded off a part of my
cinder nail. Whoa, I never noticed that. So when I was like, yeah, 12 or no, maybe it was, no, it's like 14.
My dad and I were like making a campus board to hang at our house because we built like a little
climbing wall as well. And it got caught in the belt sander I was using. That's awful. Like where the belt kind of
goes back into the machine and it like sanded it down to the bone. And then like it just rearranged
like the skin cells. So we're like the nail cells. So I grew back all wonky. But otherwise,
yeah, it didn't really affect the climbing ones. It healed. But for a while I climbed like with a
lobster claw, just like front two and my thumb. That's hard. And I mean, now you still can't do
the whole like fingernails behind the volumes thing. Yeah, I can't cheat like that anymore. So
just a purist. Don't don't get behind the volume. Yeah.
But yeah, apparently it didn't give me Tommy Caldwell level finger injury power. But
yeah, I mean, that would have been hard to climb like only front two. Yeah. Yeah, that would be crazy.
Anyways, then yeah, I was always climbing outside like here and there, but never really like
going on like long trips. It always just be like a week or something of kind of climbing in a nude
zone and exploring around. And then started going to San Diego when I was maybe like 16 or 17, 17.
For these Mesa room used to host these like national training camps,
where they'd fly in like coaches from around the world and have a super
legit team of centers, including Enrico and Al and a couple other centers that are like some of the
best in the nation, if not the world. So I felt super fortunate to be able to like learn at those
camps and like all some of the best kids and adult climbers in the nation at that time were like
doing those camps. So like, I would not be anywhere close to the best, but like, they're like,
I would not be anywhere close to the best, but like, then you're learning from
like some of the best people in the nation, which is really cool. And that definitely kind of
accelerated my growth, but it was hard to like climb on that in San Diego, like this comp style
and then go back to the bay and not have like really any comp style setting. So we were always
just making up our own moves. And I think that helped a lot with like understanding like
visualization and having to like understand setting because like we didn't have good climbs
that just go like hop on. It was much more like, okay, like let's try and make up moves on the wall
that like forced us to actually climb in like a more dynamic and like positional sort of way.
And then when the boulder field opened up, we would go up there and that's in Sacramento. So
it's not super far, like two and a half hours, but we go up there like once a month and just have
the most mega sessions. And that was with Tim King and Danny Sayo and Sam McQueen and
Solomon Barthes and like a bunch of the kids that were on the Stanford climbing team.
So we'd go up there and like literally climb for like four hours, get lunch and then climb
for like another four hours and just try and do like every climb in the gym. And those are always
like some of my favorite sessions. Yeah, it was pretty cool that like Tim and I would at the end
of those sessions try and go repeat like or do every like purple tape in the gym, which is like
the second hardest grade. And I feel like we learned a lot about like how far you could push
yourself by like competing and trying to do a ton of these hard climbs, like a lot of volume
after like seven hours of climbing. Which I don't necessarily recommend doing, but every now and then
I think it's worth pushing yourself kind of beyond what you're comfortable with and
you can realize that you actually have a lot more to give. Yeah, kind of like proving to
yourself that you're able to. And it forces you to climb them like really efficiently because you
don't have like the power and the strength that you did in hour one of the session or hour two.
So yeah, that I guess thinking about it, I like that was maybe the start of like,
understanding the value of like repeating climbs and like being more analytical and like actually
forcing yourself, I guess, indirectly in that sense to climb them efficiently.
And you were also part of like the class five youth team for a while, right?
Yeah, I guess I was never really on like the youth team. But once I started, I was like,
I went to UCLA for two years, but only two quarters of that was in person and then COVID hit.
So for those two quarters, I drove to San Diego every single weekend. And I put all my classes
just Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. So I'd like Thursday night or afternoon, I drive to San Diego,
stay with my buddy Marco for four days and just climb as much as I could during those four days
because LA has had no good climbing gyms at the time. And now it really only has like
one good climbing gym, Long Beach Rising. But everything else is touchdown and movement. So
sorry, touchdown and movement, but you guys got to step it up.
So anyways, yeah, I was driving to San Diego every single weekend.
And actually like taking the bus for a portion of that because I didn't have a car. And then
I started just like illegally parking my car on campus and that worked out phenomenally.
I got like one ticket for like the whole like five months I was there.
Lucky you.
I know. And there was like parked it right next to my dorm, which was epic. And then could go just
like camp at the beach if I wanted to, because it was like a little camper van set up. And then come
to class in the morning. And that was fun, but not the most sustainable routine of like four days of
climbing and then like three days of just grinding school. So ultimately I transferred to University
of Utah after doing the rest of that year online at UCLA and then another full year online.
So I could be like at the US Training Center out in Salt Lake. And then was always kind of going
back and forth between Salt Lake and San Diego because my coach Al, who's also the head of class
five climbing, was out here and I felt like was one of the only people like really being analytical
about climbing and like trying to develop new ways of thinking, both like with vocabulary,
but also just like reframing the way you think about movement and really like elevating the sport.
So that was like huge for me to be able to chat with him and like go to their team practices.
So then around that time I started like wearing class five shirts, like competing and that felt
like home. And then I'd go back to Salt Lake and like climb all the boulders there. And it felt
like I'd learned to climb really well in San Diego. And then I'd go to Salt Lake and have like an
amazing facility like with the US Training Center to like practice all those climbs and like actually
perform. But it was for me less of a like area or like place of growth and more like performance
oriented. And I felt like I needed a bit more of a balance. But in terms of like volume of like good
climbs, I think Salt Lake is still the best in the nation. I mean, yeah, that makes sense. It's only
fair. Yeah. Through like your youth climbing team experience, like growing up or anytime you've like
worked with class five, do you what do you feel like? Or do you feel like there was anything
unique about those programs that makes like specifically successful athletes for comps? Or
did they like teach you things that prepared you well for World Cups?
Yeah, totally. A ton of it is just the environment you're in. So like having really good setters
with the space in the facility to like set applicable climbs with like a good hold selection
is huge. And to be honest, there just aren't a lot of like setters that are able to do that.
So yeah, Alan and Rico being some of like the best setters out there are able to like set these
climbs that force you as an athlete to like climb them well. And this is another thing we're talking
about today at practice is like, he was saying like, okay, like my job is to set this climb,
and then just barely guide you, give you kind of clues on like how to climb it well. And then you
try it a bunch of times and then come to that conclusion on your own where you like understand
why it's actually the most efficient or like the easiest to do it in a certain way. And then
you like actually learn the move and you can like confidently add it to that movement library I was
talking about. So that was like huge to just have exposure to that. And then also like just making
up creative ways to like get a lot of volume with certain types of movement and like be confident,
just like standing on volumes literally, like having a volume station where all you do is like
no hands slapped like that was the first time I had ever seen that was down in San Diego.
And we're like spray wall, like movement stations where they set a whole wall that's just like
ski dinos. And for the training camp, like you spend an hour just like doing those skate dinos.
So yeah, they were very ahead of the times in terms of implementing like unique ways to like
learn and teach movement. And all of their coaching is based on like a movement philosophy
rather than like a strength philosophy. It's like you don't have to be super strong to do any of
these. It's all like positional and like you know, you're not going to be able to do it all
and like as a setter our goal is to like make you problem solve in this correct way that will like
allow you to like unlock this puzzle instead of like you're just gonna like overpower and like
squeeze this puzzle to death, you know. And I'm still learning that today. Like that was a big
thing I was actually practicing today at practice was like not pulling too hard on these holds for
this campus sequence because it was throwing off my whole like into arcs of my generation were
yeah, I don't want to get too technical but like they were no longer as efficient as they could be
because I was like engaging on this hold and like really learning to detach like your attachment
points and like how hard you have to squeeze a hold from like how hard you engage the rest of your
body. So just because you can grab a crimp and like own it and like do a one arm pull up doesn't
mean that you need to engage like your whole forearm and shoulder and back the second you grab
it. It's actually better to just hold that hold as hard as you need to just to like hang on it and
then like swing around it kind of like a monkey or like if you're doing monkey bars, right. It's way
easier to swing between bars if you're like smoothly flowing and your arm is straight rather
than if you like lock off and you have to like hold that lock off as you swing to the next bar.
Now you're using like way more strength to do the same movement. So yeah just being exposed to those
sort of concepts at those Macy's room training camps and then with Al at class five now was huge.
Yeah and then it produces a lot of great world-class athletes so I think there must be
something to it. Definitely and I guess I mentioned the environment so part of that is like the
coaching and setting but another part of that is like the people you're with and when you're around
a whole other group of people that are approaching climbing with that same mindset it's super powerful
because like right now class five has a open team as well so I'm on that with my buddy Marco and a
couple of the the older kids from the youth team but also a handful of just psyched adults and like
setters in San Diego and there's a pretty wide range of like climbing abilities but we're all
like learning the same concepts and like looking at improving kind of with that same like analytical
approach at least when you're practicing. So it's really fun just to like chat with everyone and
be in this like really high energy kind of rich learning environment. So if you're in San Diego
want to join an adult team class five is pretty solid Grotto also has an adult team that's very
legit. Yeah it's all very popular nowadays. That my good friend Marco coaches. Oh cool I didn't know
he coached it. Cool yeah. Okay yeah so in terms of your competition experience do you have like a
favorite IFSC comp that you went to? Yeah I mean they're all they're all pretty cool. My first
youth worlds was in Guangzhou China and that was a pretty cool experience like just first time being
in Asia and first time like competing at like an international event like that. But in terms of
just like overall psych or like energy I think like the Chamonix World Cup is pretty
pretty epic like being able to be on the route and then look to your right and see the glacier
coming down and having like thousands and thousands of people behind you. What happened at
um youth worlds in Guangzhou? I mean there wasn't any like particular like moment that was like
crazy but just that whole like environment of seeing all these other kids from around the
nation and like meeting all these people and just like realizing that rock climbing was like
actually this much bigger sport slash like career than I had like otherwise imagined.
Um it was pretty cool um because I feel like like I went there with my family and we spent
like a week and a half-ish in like Hong Kong before and then went to Guangzhou and it was less of
like a performance like all right you're here to like win this competition. It was more of like a
travel experience and like climbing thing but then after that you're like seeing kids that are like
showing up and taking it like so so seriously and um I guess that was kind of an interesting
realization for me. Um and I guess something I still kind of like struggle with is like
understanding the line between like putting a hundred percent of your effort into one thing
and also like making the most of the experiences that come with like competing in other countries
and stuff like that because like the World Cup Circuit like you're in these amazing places
but if you truly want to like do your best like objectively like you should get there beforehand
and like just rest for like a bunch of days and not like go explore around um which was always
like really hard for me so I was I felt like me and a couple other people on the circuit would
try and take advantage of those places a bit more than other people and maybe that hurt
some of my performance but I think I enjoyed the experience more overall maybe. I don't know that's
very like specific to like each person but like in Italy last year like in Brixton that was actually
one of the the cooler bouldering World Cups um like winter out like the day before or like two
days before and like did like a super chill like mile hike to go like check out these amazing rock
formations on the Dolomites and like that sort of thing always seems like almost like better
for me performance wise because you're able to like connect with nature and just like kind of
slow down and be more present and then bring that same kind of attitude into the competition
whereas if you're like 1000% focused and you're just in your hotel room all day
and you're like this comp is like everything in the world then it kind of amplifies maybe any
mistakes you make it almost becomes like this negative feedback loop right whereas
if you take the kind of like degrowth mindset approach like I'm like you to learn and like I
obviously want to do my best and um like I was like taking quite seriously but I think more so
than other people I was also wanting to go explore around a little bit. Yeah I can only see how that
would be like a hard choice to make I feel like before Veil I kind of just sat around but then
all I could do was just sit there and think about like how nervous I am or like I don't know what
else to do I'm just kind of like stuck here in this like idle state where it's like well I'm not
really taking advantage of anything and now I'm kind of just here and I feel like I'm kind of
wasting a trip but yeah it's it's nice to get to go out and experience it. Yeah I think
I would encourage anyone like listening to this that's competing and maybe they've experienced
that same like idle like restlessness state just to go like take a walk outside like that's not
going to hinder your performance at all like a couple miles or just like walking around
and just go like meditate in the forest or something. And I guess so that kind of makes
me wonder so your like best result was in Salt Lake um do you think you were able to
like um do you feel like maybe since you didn't feel that need to like explore you kind of had
that hometown advantage and you were able to perform better there? Yeah totally.
100% like for two weeks before I was I had like a very consistent routine of like waking up
doing like 10 minutes of meditation out on the deck then like reading a book about like mindsets
and then every like other day I'd go like jump in the like cold plunge and try and like
practice my like reading techniques to like slow down my heart rate and it was a very yeah focused
routine and all of my climbing during that period was just at the gyms around Salt Lake where
it was all like performance oriented so for two weeks beforehand I
would go do like a full off the wall warm-up and then just climb like the 10s or below like
I would basically try and do like every the like six or seven to like the 11 in the gym
or at least all the like compi style ones that were like um or movement oriented and just repeat
each one like two or three times until I felt super confident in like the method I was doing it
um and then like you have this massive like library of movement and this huge volume of climbing that
you've done really really close to like the limit of how well you can climb you know um and then
like you do the competition and you don't expect to climb any different than you already have been
climbing like I feel like people maybe go to the gym and climb just like so-so or then they like
go to a competition and like expect to like climb great or like expect to climb different than like
how they normally climb and for me before competitions it's really important to like
increase the average of like your your best climbing like if if you think about like in a
competition you're gonna there's all these like distracting variables in a competition so it's
harder to climb like at your best you know so before the competition you want to be like
maximizing the amount of like really efficient good climbing you're doing and I think one of the best
ways to do that is like repeating climbs and having like a long off-the-wall warm-up so like
the second you pull on the wall you're just climbing super efficient super flowy really like
snappy and engaged um so one of my like favorite practical pieces of advice there is like hopping
on like doing an off-the-wall warm-up like stretching doing a little hangboarding getting
your muscles and mind ready including like a lot of breath work and like doing a lot of
like a lot of breath work like how do you want to be breathing when you are actually climbing like
warm that up before you get on the wall but then when you hop on the wall go do like a v0 three
or four or five times in a row or a couple different ones and just try and do it like super
fast and that like I was talking about this during our clinic but that kind of helps get that mind
body connection solidified and also just gets you moving how at least I want to be climbing in a
competition where it is kind of subconscious and your limbs are just going where you want them to
go and you're able to like think and make really quick and accurate decisions yeah that makes sense
and do you also feel like maybe it's a setting preference within like you're more used to the
kind of USA style settings so it gives you another kind of advantage or do you feel like there's not
much difference there um yeah that's definitely part of it but I I mean there's like the the
setting crew is an international crew no matter where it is but in salt lake there's more American
centers um so if anything at least like the comps that I've done really well at in salt lake were
like slightly easier boulders that I was able to like execute really well on like I made semi-finals
or I've made finals because I did like all four the climbs and like pretty low attempts and same
like even just making semi-finals like I had to do like four out of the five climbs in like quite
low attempts then I was like better at that like I could execute like in four minutes or in a couple
tries like closer to my limit or like but my highest limit I don't think was like crazy
like where like the best people at that comp could definitely like out climb me in terms of like
difficulty um but I could be consistent at like climbing to 90 to like 95 percent of my potential in
a couple tries but okay well actually I want to rephrase that because that's at least maybe how
I was thinking about it then but I think that's because I never spent a ton of time like projecting
really hard climbs and then um coming back and like talking to Al and uh Josh they were like okay like
I think you should spend more time like projecting really hard climbs um and then like really learning
those moves so you can kind of increase that that bar but I will say I think it's important to like
kind of stagger like strength training to be like after like the execution like all of the visualizing
breath work like all these other tactics that allow you to like consistently climb close to
your potential like if you're not climbing consistently to like 90 of your like physical
limit there's no point in adding strength to that equation it actually makes it a lot harder
to like be consistent and learn how to move well um so you kind of think about it like a staircase
where like you get strong or like for most people right like your x level of like strength and then
you work to like increase your execution and like understand how to like consistent climb at that
level and then you add on a little bit more strength and then learn how to do that same
level of like execution and um climbing with that new strength yeah when I when I started working
with Al he basically was like okay you have to like forget how to climb completely and like
relearn how to climb with this new kind of framework for like moving efficiently and
climbing positionally and making time over the feed and under the hands and like all of these
concepts that don't work if you just like grab a hold and pull really hard and I'm still like
learning to do that now where like I can sometimes just like overpower climbs because I'm pretty
strong and because I grew up like in the Bay Area climbing on these like pretty straightforward
like power overhanging blocks um but then like the real power is like being able to do both of
those because sometimes you do need to just like have raw power um but even then you have to like
it's more efficient to approach it from like a movement and like uh positional standpoint
so would you say that you don't really do much strength training nowadays no I don't do like
any right now well okay that's maybe not it depends on to me my strength training but like I haven't
done like much weight lifting or like cycles of like hangboarding like I'll do a long warm-up that
includes like some block pulls and these like more like maintenance um or like fight I guess
they're like getting your fingers stronger but it's not like I'm hangboarding for a bunch of
hours every week or like lifting weights or like a lot of it's like very functional it's like
functional mobility exercises where you're like trying to recreate positions on the wall and then
just do a couple sets like twice a week that's kind of all you need to get stronger in a lot
of cases like it's a lot more efficient like there's a bunch of studies um around like using
drop sets or like end range like strength where it's kind of the same concept as like
uh the like strength versus like execution it's like with mobility like if you're not able to like
actually use your flexibility then it doesn't really matter and you should spend time like
getting strong and like healthy in those end ranges and then you add on a bit more like
flexibility and then you get strong again um so for like finger strength and things like that like
if your wrists aren't healthy and you're like your lumbar curls can't take like the added
strain of like having really strong fingers it doesn't really matter like you have to be
able to use that strength in like a functional range and like especially with comp climbing
like there's all these crazy like presses and like weird types of like engagement where you
have to like grab a hold at a really weird angle like where your wrist is all like yeah kind of
cocked to the side yeah um and if it's not ready to like take that force then it doesn't really
matter if you can do a one arm on like a six mil crimp yeah going back to like comps that you've
uh done um you've also done some like other non-ifsc comp formats um i think i saw that you did like
the team boulder arena uh in paris um and then i've watched like a few other types of competitions
um what other like formats have you competed in and enjoyed yeah um the team boulder arena too
in paris was like one of the most fun comp experiences i've had um so i was partners with
simone lorenzi and uh i guess for people who don't know i have made a youtube video about it that
explains like the whole format and everything but the the quick version is uh for qualifiers there
were 20 climbs in this big like u-shaped climbing gym and you or your partner had to do uh each
climb like in order so it was four minutes on and then you no rest period straight to the next one
but only like you or your partner had to do each climb and they started off pretty easy but around
like 13 they kind of got trickier so you'd kind of go around the circle just trying all of them
and the climbs would each get progressively harder and if you didn't do one of the blocks then you
were like oh so like the 13th problem was like this pretty tricky slab and that got a bunch of
teams and then simone carried us a fair amount i felt like in uh in qualifiers where he kept just
like flashing them all and i feel like i didn't have a chance to like get warm enough like on
that like more comfy style um but he was also just like crushing it so we did like all all 20 of them
and then for finals it was a pretty unique yeah we were the only team to do to do all 20 um and
like tomoa and and a bunch of their other japanese team kokoro uh and then like paul and mejdi and
like crazy crazy crew at that comp um hey mej was there as well uh and then for finals they had one
like really tricky slab climb and one person from your team had to try it and you had to flash it to
to get on to like the rest of the finals so they had yeah and uh simone tried it and they
it wasn't able to do that one uh it was like super low percentage but like not super
physically difficult um so there were like seven teams that made finals because we tied
and then like three of the teams fell on that first slab and then everyone else uh the format
was like four minutes on and you and your teammate could try as many times like between the two of
you so it's just like a normal like ifc format or when it's on like um and a full like final
but your you and your teammate were like on the same boulder so i thought like it was a lot more
strategy between you and your partner like being able to communicate like what adjustments you
would make like what you learned from that attempt and then also from a spectating standpoint it was
way more interesting to watch because there's just always someone on the wall um so minus
minus the flash boulder i think that would be a pretty cool format to see more of do you like
competing in that kind of team way because i feel like i don't really like team sports because i
feel really there's like extra pressure that you could also let down your teammate instead of like
if you're just competing for yourself you can only let down yourself but then there's just like other
person who's also kind of counting on you and i i hate that pressure yeah that's interesting i think
i mean yeah i wouldn't want like every comp in the world to be like that format for sure
but for like a spectator focused not spectator focused but like a more like informal competition
i think it was it was more fun and maybe just because it's like different as an athlete it's
kind of fun to like try and figure out like the strategy behind a different format like that but
i think it uh yeah that added pressure is definitely something to to be aware of and like
like maybe that's like a lesson or something you could learn from like oh if i'm like worried
about letting down like my partner like why why am i not confident in like my own abilities and
like how could i train that um because it's the same thing as like like i felt that same thing
where like i didn't flash a couple of the climbs and then simone did it i was like oh shoot like
i'm gonna get caught up in this like negative thought cycle and that's a really good time to
practice like flipping flipping that that downward spiral like into like an upward one when you're
like okay like i am confident in that and like i am able to climb well and just uh i guess those
moments of like higher pressure when you actually can understand that and like learn that about
yourself and then it just is up to you to like make the most of that realization i guess
so yeah i guess going into the mindset portion of things um that's something that you practice a lot
of and that you preach a lot about um do you can you like remember a time where you were like really
close to losing your cool during a competition and then you were able to turn that around
yeah i mean there's like hundreds of situations like that whether it's like
on a full competition level or like more commonly just on like a boulder or like even attempt level
where like you do one attempt on something and it doesn't feel possible at all and like
it all just starts with like that awareness of like realizing like oh like i just started
started going down like the wrong path i'm like this feels too hard i can't blah blah blah like
all of this all these thoughts that are taking you out of like the here and now and bringing you to
like the there and then of what you could have done differently in your competition or even like
the future like negative outcomes of like oh if i don't do this right now then blah blah blah is
gonna happen i won't win the comp i won't get to go to the world cup blah blah blah um but like
literally none of that is going to help you do the boulder in front of you so just being really
practical about like my goal and like i i owe it to myself like i owe it to all the training i've
done to stay present and focused and like show up the best version of myself that i can
and i think for me being very uh very honest with myself about what that actually means
has been huge and like in the gym or in your practice or anytime you've like accomplished
something big like has that come from a place of like anger or like distracted like okay like
screw this climbing i'm just gonna hop on and like give it one more attempt or was it because
you like actually took a second to like breathe like slow down and like were more intentional
with that attempt um and the vast majority it's the latter um so being able to like notice that
in the comp and then really quickly reframe that like negative thought or whatever into like okay
like this is actually an opportunity to like showcase all of the work i've put in or like oh
i'm feeling stressed that just means i really care about this thing like i i feel stressed all the
time but i try and like reframe into a like all like this nervousness is just because i'm really
passionate about climbing and i want to show to myself and other people that like i put in this
work and like i learned this thing and like i'm able to like climb to the best of my ability
but in order to do that i need to like let go of all of those like expectations and
uh any like kind of judgment around that and just like believe in your ability to to perform
and i think there's that can show up differently for for people like what that specific like
motivational thing is um but in general i think it's helpful to have it be like a
reframe those like negative thoughts and be like a positive like opportunity sort of thing rather
than a like oh shit like if i don't do this this will be bad and that's like a whole like growth
mindset thing and there's been like hundreds of studies on that it's um like framing it into
this opportunity to to learn and grow um and just allowing i think it's important to allow yourself
to still like feel disappointed or like nervous and all these like natural emotions um but just
being like realistic about like what actually when do you perform your best or when do you feel your
best and then trying to train and get into that mindset as consistently as possible uh that did
not answer your question though i think a specific time that i like felt that struggle and then
didn't really lose you're close to uh to losing it there didn't like i saw like world cups for
example like in qualifiers or actually like in semi or in finals for that comp like i did and
i didn't do the first boulder and i knew i could have and it felt easy i was like oh my god like i
just i i didn't stay true to like my training and there was a moment of like an iso before going
out for the second boulder of just like what the heck like i just screwed up and i was like
i just screwed up like you also knew that everyone else did it yeah no i knew everyone else had done
it and i was just like oh my gosh like what i'm so silly um and then that's kind of like a really
good cue for me to just like i kind of visualize there being like four separate climbs like in my
mind and like you walk through like one door and i'm like that's one climb it's pretty isolated
from the next climb so like spend the time like reflect on it um and if it's like a four minute
round right you only have like four minutes to rest maybe spend 30 seconds thinking about that
last boulder and be like okay like dang i didn't do it this is what i could have done i could have
taken another breath or just like slow down be a bit more present and then completely let it go
like close that door like maybe you visualize like a bubble and each bubble is like has its
little climb in it and then that bubble kind of just vanishes and then it's only like the three
next climbs um so i i was proud of that kind of reframing in iso there and um yeah i think i ended
up just kind of being like okay like that was silly like obviously i could have done that climb
um because it's not super physically hard and i was just a little too angsty like too much too
much energy too much thought like cluttering my ability to just climb how i climb um and for me
like that's a huge like realization is like you climb your best when you're able to like execute
these moves on a subconscious level and that's true for like pretty much any high performer in
the world like i did a bunch of studying around like flow states and these like my what's a peak
performance and it's called like transient hyperfrontality when like the prefrontal cortex
kind of slows down and you're performing these tasks at like a more subconscious level um
and so like just taking the time to like do a breathing routine or like a little meditation
thing or whatever it is um to get into that more uh like present like decluttered state of mind is
hugely important so that's what i did i just like laid down on my back in the grass in the back of
the iso zone nice um and kind of reset and then came out to the second boulder and and was able
to do it um and then the same thing happened on the third boulder where i maybe could have slowed
down the heart rate and like re-centered a bit more after like the energy of the second boulder
and then i like slowed it down again after that and then was able to do the last boulder um but
that's kind of only something you can not only but that was like my first world cup final and uh it's
hard to like learn how to deal with that like pressure and everything without actually being
in that situation so i think giving yourself like that little breathing room to like learn a new
um just learn a new like not system but like how to like practice and like be yourself in this new
environment is really important and like the weekend before was i'd made like semi-finals and
then i had kind of like that same amount of like over over psych like over cluttered energy in
the semi-finals that led to me being like a couple spots out of finals and then i was like okay like
next weekend like really slow it down don't get led yourself like uh like dump all of your adrenaline
after the first boulder and qualifiers right like you kind of have to play this longer game
and it is kind of a game like that like you need a lot of like mental stamina to like get through
three rounds of really hard climbing especially when they're like yeah these
really high performance like execution rounds where like you have to top every boulder in qualifiers
and semis to make a final um like that's why it's it's so inconsistent like in the top of like the
field because even though like everyone is crazy strong and capable of like doing all of these
boulders the only people that are like really consistent are the ones that are like able to
kind of mindset and like only put out enough energy to like do the climbs and then recover enough
before semi-finals or before finals to do the same thing over and over again
yeah well it also seems a lot more inconsistent in like the men's side whereas like on the women's
side it seems like there's usually the same kind of people making finals and then it's like
on the women's side it seems like there's usually the same kind of people making finals and winning
finals but i feel like men's is all over all over the place yeah i think i don't this might
be wrong but it seems like there's the top of the women's field is like more distinguished between
the bottom of the women's field in terms of like strength and mentality so like they can have a
day where they only perform like 60 of their potential but they're still making finals
because like that potential is just like so much higher than like the bottom half
whereas the men's field like maybe a higher percentage of the field is like
meets that like strength threshold required by the climbs if that makes sense and it becomes more of
like an execution game like who's able to like keep it together mentally and like be consistent with
their climbing uh yeah that could be completely wrong but that's kind of a theory
no yeah i kind of see that as well um but yeah going back to what you had said earlier you had
mentioned like meditation uh one of the discord questions that came in was about your thoughts on
meditation um they were wondering if you find meditation to be easier in isolation or if you
also do it a lot when you're like actively climbing like on the rock or on the um boulder
during a competition yeah um i find it helpful pretty much all the time but it is a very
uh it's tricky to like be consistent with it especially when traveling i find um so i think
having like just some non-negotiables for that like all right every morning just like five minutes
i'm just like sitting and just like breathing and if your mind wanders somewhere else like that's
totally okay just bring it back to your breath or like closing your eyes and kind of like focusing
on that third eye whatever it is like you can kind of like play around and find what feels the best
for you but my routine was or is uh like trying to find like 10 to 20 minutes in the morning
to just like sit outside and just do a breathing meditation um and then if it's before a competition
like actually visualizing like what it's going to feel like to be in that environment like if it's a
gym that you've competed at before a venue you've been at before um like put yourself in isolation
like visualize yourself like doing your same breath sequence or whatever it is like in that
chair in iso feeling confident in the chair and then like visualize yourself in front of the wall
if you know like what the wall angles are you could go through like for each of like the
different like slabs or overhang whatever um kind of visualize like yourself breathing doing your
routine putting your shoes on at like one minute or two minutes standing up and like just feeling
like psyched and confident like whatever you want to feel like in that moment feel that same way
and like prime your your nervous system to feel that same way before the call
so i'll do that a lot even if i don't know the same way that i'm doing it but i'm doing it
even if i don't know the same like what every venue is like it's my like i have the same routine
like that four minutes is like the same no matter where i am um and so like visualizing that and
kind of like downloading that uh that sequence of like feelings and like that energy i think is
really important and then once you're in iso you just like kind of replay that same sequence um
at least from like a mindset standpoint like your warm-up might be a little different because
uh like the warm-up zones are always going to be different or whatever it is but as long as
you can get to that same like place of feeling like really confident in psych and just like all
this good energy uh i find that's like a really consistent place to approach a competition from
and then it's like during in isolation i'll try and find like maybe 10 minutes before i i start
warming up to just go sit and like breathe and then at least 10 minutes before i go out like
in the half hour before i go out to just go sit and and breathe and kind of slow your heart rate
down and uh for me it's a lot easier to approach a boulder with like this calm collected state of mind
rather than like hyping yourself up a ton and then you turn around and it's a slab climb and you have
to be like super delicate like it's a lot easier to for me at least i mean i think this goes for
most people but easier to like increase the level of energy in your body um than it is to like slow
it down so if you turn around and it's actually like a big huge dino with like some crazy small
crimps you have to like power scream on then it's easy to just like power scream like slap yourself
on your shoulders a little bit and like increase the level of energy to the level that the boulder
requires but more often than not especially in a competition with like all this extra energy coming
from the crowd and environment and just more stress than you might be used to uh you really have to
work to like bring your heart rate down to the level of the boulder and i guess this is not
directly related to meditation but trying to seek that energy level out in your training i think is
really important too like if every single competition you do you're feeling like okay like there's a lot
of energy here and like i'm not able to execute how i normally do because like my mind is just
going 100 miles an hour maybe practice doing that in your training and get like comfortable and
confident executing with all of that extra kind of energy or like it's a balance between that and
also just getting really good at like slowing your heart rate down and like decluttering your mind
uh so it just feels like another day of climbing at the gym like that's when i feel the best is like
insult like i didn't even know the crowd was there for like the boulders that i did you know
for any competition that you like do really well like when you get into that flow state uh like
that transient hyperventilator that said before like that actually means you're not thinking about
like anything but like the present and part of their brain function that like slows down and kind
of deactivates is uh the region that controls like time so things start to like feel like they're in
slow motion you do a boulder like whoa like what just happened also the same system that distinguishes
you from the rest of the world like this distinguishes you from like the pads or the air
around you like that kind of starts to fade away so you're literally like one with whatever you're
you're doing and it's a pretty special like place to feel like that connected and i'm sure anyone
listening and you as well can like relate to a moment where you felt like that amount of like
presence and you've like topped the boulder got done with the run or like i don't know even finished
writing like an email or essay whatever it is and you're like well like what the heck like where
where was i like that was some really cool place it was just that um so just trying to like practice
get into that state of mind work consistently is huge and like that's my ultimate goal is like
if you could tap into that amount of like focus and concentration on demand like it'd be
invincible you would it'd be pretty close yeah no it's one of the best feelings
yeah no it's one of the best feelings yeah um you've also i think i've heard you mention in like
uh previous podcasts or interviews um you've mentioned like being comfortable with the
uncomfortable and i feel like i can relate to that phrase a bit um how do you feel like you apply that
to climbing and life in general totally that's a great question um honestly what i was talking
about with the visualization before is like a huge piece of that like visualizing yourself being
uncomfortable even like on a specific move maybe you're like visualizing a a scary move on a slab
where you have to like rock over a bad foot it's totally natural like feel a little scared and like
have that increase in like adrenaline as you like step onto that foot and realize like oh shit i have
to like fully trust this thing i might fall down this whole wall or like slip out of nowhere so
when you're on the ground like visualize yourself like uh there's a couple cool studies that were
showing that the most efficient way to visualize is actually in the third person first so like
projecting yourself onto the wall um i kind of do it like in slow motion like okay like what are the
different ways i could do this boulder and then once i figure out um how i want to try it like
what the most efficient way is then i'll visualize that same thing in the first person so what does
it actually feel like to trust this foot overcome that like feeling of fear like you can pretty much
get yourself to feel like the same way you're going to feel on the wall once you like practice
it a lot and like align that mental representation with like the actual physical um representation
uh and get to the point where you can like overcome that little bit of like fear and uh
that like heightened mindset on the wall and then you climb up there and you actually get to really
like oh i've already like i've already trusted this foot in my mind i'm comfortable in this
situation and then you can execute with a like way less doubt and like way less distractions than
you otherwise could so i think that's a pretty fun exercise to try um and i could talk a lot more
about like that visualization piece of things but working towards like aligning that like mental
representation and like that first person like feeling of actually doing the move really
efficiently with how you actually do it is huge um and pretty crucial for like figuring out
complex sequences in a quick period of time like um like in the gym if we're learning a move right
you can have a phone out and like go watch and dig okay like i actually i didn't i didn't land my
foot where i wanted to or like my hips were not moving with the trajectory i thought they were
going to be but in a comp you can't have that right there's no coaches or people that like help
you um so you need to have a really accurate mental representation so you can like get off the wall
after you fall or whatever and be like okay well i wanted to do this but really my hips were doing
this and my hand wasn't accurate here and then you can kind of uh reassess try and get a better
plan of action and then this goes back to like kind of the fundamentals of like getting into
into flow states but uh you don't want to be like thinking super critically about like okay i want
my hand to go exactly here and pulling this hard on that like that's just too much to think about
and that's bringing your your brain and focus back into like that very executive stinking um side of
things rather than that subconscious thing so if you're able to visualize it well like have that
goal visualize it two or three times in your head be like okay this is what it feels like to do this
move efficiently then you take a deep breath smile let go of like that very specific um goal
and just have the intention to like move well and your body can take care of the rest and if you're
good at that then you hop back on the wall and you're able to like execute and do it like you've
already done the move you know um so in training like practicing aligning those two and repeating
climb the loft so your body is able to kind of execute moves at a subconscious level is
super important and i guess the last thing i'll say there uh is like being okay like resetting
like that while you're on the wall is huge so i think your question about mindset before was like
in isoverse on the wall i wouldn't call it meditation when you're on the wall but finding
brief moments to like close your eyes and maybe do like a double inhale which has been proven to
be like the best way to slow down your heart rate and kind of get into that super calm focused state
of mind and there's a lot more like scientific language around all of this than what i'm
describing now but i think it's easier to to understand just in a quick podcast format
format um like that double inhale is is super important and that's like the basis of like my
whole breathing routine before the climbing um but also like on the wall if i can find
a quick little stance or moment on a boulder just to reset close my eyes and
it and then get back into it um i think that's that's huge yeah i uh tried that during the
comp and it helped uh well i don't really know if it helped but it did calm me down a bit so
yeah that was uh that was a good tip i think everyone should try that out that's awesome
yeah there's a cool podcast from humor man on the more nitty-gritty of why and how that's possible
it's like all of the avioli in your lungs are expanding more when you do that double inhale
you actually do it like subconsciously like every five minutes in the show um and it like
unsticks all of these little membranes in your lungs that process oxygen so you're able to
like literally process more oxygen which helps calm your body down because it's like oh i'm
surviving i'm getting the air that i need to like think and breathe um so when you do that
consciously it does the same the same thing yeah okay awesome yeah i think uh everyone should
try it out see if it helps anytime you're doing something that is a little uncomfortable but yeah
going into your non-climbing hobbies you've already mentioned that you do a lot of surfing
um you also do like trad which is climbing but it's a very different uh form of it i feel like
yeah um what have you well first of all are you ever like concerned about getting injured from
these sports because i think i've heard from other like world cup competitors that uh they're either
they're either like not allowed to do outside sports for like concern about injury or they're
just like not really interested because they don't want to get injured is that ever like a concern
for you um not really i think that the concern is more around like just where my focus is and like
if my intention is to do really really well at a world cup like being honest with myself about like
if surfing like for five hours straight is going to help the training i'm supposed to do later that
day um but in general i think it's really healthy for me to like have these other creative outlets
and other opportunities to like kind of practice like the same routines that i'm bringing into like
climbing like when we talk about flow like those habits and routines the same stuff that helps you
get into like a flow state during a competition helps you to perform it like any other discipline
of life um so i'm not saying that i'm going out surfing like thinking about like training for
climbing um but when a big wave comes and your heart rate increases like that's the same feeling
like when you run out and there's a thousand people like all cheering and the music is crazy
loud and the lights are flashing in your eyes you turn around and see like some absurd boulder
like that's they're a very similar feeling so when that huge set wave comes and like
you gotta like slow your heart rate down like i'm doing the same double inhale
long exhale and kind of visualizing myself paddling dropping it and like feeling really
confident and like executing um so i think that helps with with climbing or like lots of other
forms of of life um and the same thing goes for like skiing or mountain biking
mountain biking um or yeah like trad climbing like i was kind of describing earlier with the Hulk
um it's all just like a mind thing like if your body is able to do it it's just a question of
like are you able to allow your body to do it like you gotta get out of your own way if that makes
sense like you practice so your body knows how to perform a certain task and then a lot of times
in in moments of like high pressure the only reason you're not able to do that it's because
you're thinking too much and you're kind of standing in your own way so like understanding
that and then developing your own routines to uh get into that more focused concentrated place is
huge and so outside of i guess like the mindset part of it do you feel like there's anything
physical that you've learned from these other sports that you can bring into climbing
yeah i mean i think a ton of like growing up we were always like going camping outside and just
running around on like redwood trees and falling across rivers and stuff like that um and then a
lot of skiing as well and like the balance aspect of that is is huge and like the proprioception
that comes from like having to control your skis or if you're surfing like hopping up and like
being able to move the board how you want to um same with like trail running or like rock hopping
i feel like uh we'd always go to this one spot in in tahoe that has these rocks that are like just
poking up above the water and we would or like not we i would try and like run around between the
ball and like you start running and you like have the momentum where uh you like have to like jump
to the next rock otherwise you're going to like fall in this like icy lake um and i feel like that
was really fun to just get comfortable like committing to like kind of risky moves like that
and um that kind of ties into another big flow trigger which is like the challenge skill ratio so
practicing at that sweet spot where it's difficult for you and like pushes you to like actually
learn and execute at the best of your ability but isn't so hard that it's gonna discourage you from
like learning the move or whatever it is or it's like too much of a challenge for your body so
they found that about like four percent is the the ideal spot to be at with whatever you're doing
so like four percent harder or more uncomfortable than what you've done in the past or what you're
comfortable with like in that exact moment so if you apply that like to a warm-up like if you
haven't climbed hard yet that four percent increase is not that big like it's just like four
like four percent above like v0 whatever that is you know but then once you're really warm then
you have to like push up that challenge skill ratio so you can keep learning like at that edge
and i think to make it a bit more climbing specific like before i was talking about like
i warm up off the wall and then hop on v0 that v0 is not pushing that challenge skill ratio from
like a physical standpoint right because i've done a bunch of hangboarding mobility like my
body and mind are ready to like climb harder than v0 but by trying to do it really quickly
and trying to be really accurate and flowy with the feet and coordinating your hands and generation
all at the same time now you're upping the challenge skill ratio where you're forcing
your body to like kind of rise to the occasion and perform at a higher level than just climbing it
like super slow and controlled so you can make the challenge skill ratio hard for you and in
different ways and even like this last week in the bay climbing on disgustingly greasy climbs
that were not set terribly well like i was doing that a lot with my friends sorry setters
uh this does not go for yeah benchmark or mosaic or the boulder feels um wow this is just a touchstone
hate episode um you said it not me um no no um half joking but uh i think upping that challenge
skill ratio in other ways is is super important um and then that like goes with anything you're
learning like you have to be really like honest and maybe like let go of your ego a little bit
to learn as quickly as you can like there's plenty of moves that i like have not learned and you'll
get on your back wow like i need to like really take a step back and like let go of what i thought
i was doing and like assess it from like the ground up okay what are like the fundamentals
of this move the having like frameworks like what we taught um in the clinic like space time
position and these other things that i'm not going to go into super deep right now because they're
just more nuanced coaching concepts that uh will share another podcaster coaching video take a mind
to motion clinic yeah it's a shameless plug um actually yeah we're doing a couple at the boulder
field in the bay and then i'm going up to ben to teach a couple national clinics up there and then
i try and do a clinic in seattle as well so lots of fun upcoming coaching thing coaching things
excuse me well this isn't coming out until probably a month but after that they can check i'll add the
link to the website for sure for sure um but just being like realistic with yourself and being like
have if i haven't done like a crazy lache to like a blocked crimp on a really bad foot like
there's no way you're just gonna like all of a sudden be like superman and do that move you know
you know so like really tone it down and that's a big part of our clinics is like adding those
progression holds so you can practice at a level that's makes sense for you um learn the move learn
like why it's efficient to like generate in a certain way or like what the end position is
and then make it a little bit harder and make it a little bit harder make it a little bit harder
um and then you get to like the harder variation and it's like feels super easy and so kind of
like reverse engineering that and like doing the same thing in your warm-up is huge like getting on
an easier climb doing it really well and then you bring that same like level of execution and flow
and confidence to your harder climbs but for me that's really fun to to practice in other sports
serve disciplines outside of climbing um and try and like push that challenge skill ratio
quickly and like learn these new ways to like move and think um whether that's like skiing or
surfing or whatever it is ping pong it's super fun as well ping pong might be like the most
oh like flow-inducive thing that i do where like after like a couple games of warming up
you're just like so locked in and having to like think and move so quickly really sorry you don't
you're not thinking because like it's so quick that it has to just be so conscious so you're like oh
you're just you're you're just playing and not even thinking about like how you're playing you just
do how long have you been playing ping pong ping pong uh i mean i played a bunch like in high school
and i'm not like a competitive ping pong player or anything but uh sure and yeah that would be kind
of fun actually maybe we're gonna look into some san diego ping pong leagues but we had like a table
at my high school and we had always just played during like lunch and in between classes and
and everything i feel like that's a good uh sport to get into that you don't have to be super
well i don't know do you have to be super fit for ping pong it feels like a long-lasting sport
i don't think so yeah maybe a good like wrist warm-up as well playing with your non-dominant
hand too is really fun like i've been doing that a bunch recently and i've gotten so much better
like i can play like decently well now with my left hand whereas like a couple years ago i like
could hit it back on the right side of the table um so that's kind of a fun challenge or like brushing
your teeth with your left hand or eating or like using chopsticks i've been doing that at like
sushi oh my god sushi places recently like trying to just eat everything
with my left hand and using the chopsticks makes you slow down wait what do you feel like that
helps you with uh just like being better at like using your your other hand like i feel like people
like for climbing right like there's no reason like i guess if you're you have to be really
accurate with climbing and like grabbing holds and like being able to engage quickly or like
articulate your hand in a certain way to like do whatever you're you're doing and so having like
a more even like homunculus map in your head right i think is going to be really helpful
if you think about the moves in a competition look at how many of the like skates or dinos go to the
right versus how when you go to the left and that's because all the setters are like the majority are
like right-handed so it's more comfortable to go to the right and that started to change more
recently but people are like climb better going the direction or like grabbing holds with their
like most dominant hand so like trying to even that out is a place for everyone to improve it
or if you think about like how comfortable and how accurate you can be like with your hands
versus your feet like that's a huge thing that people can improve at with climbing like half of
climbing maybe even more is like how well you can like move your feet and like get over your hips and
like pull with your feet but we spend like zero time at least like on night like when i was
learning to climb we didn't do a lot of like foot accuracy exercises or things like that so that was
like part of the warm-up exercises i was showing everyone in that clinic that you did was like
right warming up your your mind and feet to have that same level of like accuracy and confidence
uh you can have with your hands so i guess you could start like brushing your teeth and eating
sushi with your feet too with your feet yeah that's a good idea i went straight through that yeah
um that's funny um one quick little tip around that is like another big flow trigger is just
specific goals like you're never gonna get better or like learn something um if you don't have like
a goal for what you're trying to do and the more specific you can be with that whether you're right
or wrong like there's a bunch of studies that have shown like just making a hypothesis before
you do something will help you learn what you're trying to learn regardless of whether you're
hypothesis was right or wrong um so if you're doing a skate move or whatever it is like be
really specific with where you want to have your foot land on the volume and then that'll help you
like actually build those like motor neurons and like be able to like align like that mental
representation as well as you can with that physical um with the physical move okay um so
so yeah those were your i guess like sports non-climbing hobbies yeah i guess i played
basketball a fair amount i just started swimming for like some more cardio stuff i was saying
so like the last three days no every every other day um for the last six days so three days total
i've swam like a half mile which is brutal but now it's feeling a lot more natural and
and yeah it's definitely a really cool full body workout okay wow that's a lot so quick overview
of all the sports videos just list all the ones that you're into right now okay i'd say
in terms of like time spent right now it's swimming or you know not so we uh surfing and then
uh probably swimming right now and then like skiing but it's summer so i haven't done that in a bit
um and then like basketball and then ping pong at the gym or whatever and then i like biking
a fair amount of that i've been trying to like do some road biking every now and then
just because it's fun and another way to get your heart rate up um
and then like mountain biking find back home in the bay or with somebody who has a good mountain
bike wow wow it's a lot yeah outside of your sports hobbies um you also have a lot of like
creative hobbies with your youtube channel and like photography as well um how do you fit youtube
into your climbing and training and traveling schedule because it is it is a lot with all the
things you like doing yes it is it is a lot um that having been i've definitely been a lot less
consistent with and like at the beginning like the first season i was like on the world cup circuit
with tim we're like oh like we should just do this youtube thing together and it'd be fun to just
like kind of document like all these experiences and like the places we're going um and then
yeah with like school and training and doing all these other hobbies it was kind of hard to be
consistent with that so uh i would definitely like to be making higher quality content more
consistently i feel like this year i'm finally in a place where i have the time because i'm like
graduated from school um and have a bit more freedom like financially with you know sponsors
and coaching and stuff like that to like do that at a higher level but it's still very difficult
um and something i'm learning about and like doing uh or have just a lot to improve at like
because right up until now like the vast majority of stuff on my channel it's like i've done the
editing for which is tricky and like a whole other profession to learn you know and i'm like
yeah anywhere close to being like a good video editor but it like works and i think well okay
now it's kind of like the limiting factor is like how much time i can spend editing um so trying to
work with like a more professional crew of people like so many edit that stuff um it has been a fun
challenge and i've got a bunch of cool content coming out so uh i finally have a cool video
from seco block in chicago last year that was like super super cool event um and like met
chris charmer there and that ended up turning into like a trip to my orca which i also have a
cool video about that may actually be out by the time this video comes out um i think and then a
couple other trips like to yosemite like doing seven days straight of climbing in yosemite
between like bouldering and trad climbing and big wall climbing and sport climbing and like
single pitch trad um so that should be kind of a fun uh recap montage video of like just a week of
trying a bunch of things there lots of time in the river yeah photography i guess began it's just
like this really fun way to like capture moments from trips all over and like share those with
friends and family and then it's just a cool creative outlet um like trying to look at
different angles or different lighting or kind of capture different like feelings and shots and
i definitely am and not a like my roommates are both like professional photographers and videographers
and like looking at their work it's like oh my god like you're a true artist and i'm definitely
not at that level but it is fun to like kind of share some of these images and things outside
of the climbing world and i think it takes a bit of the like the edge off of like i'm not just a
professional climber like i don't do well in a competition or whatever it's like not the end
of the world even though i really want to but it just comes back to like that awareness of like
i want to do this because i'm like really psyched and passionate about this
and having those other things that you're like excited about doing i think helps to lead a more
balanced life yeah you don't you don't feel the pressure that this is like the only thing that
you can do and that it's still so you like have to perform because otherwise your life is over
yeah again it goes back to like framing it into like that positive like opportunity to like do
really well like i've trained and like i've been really passionate about this um so i want to like
perform well but i'm not bringing in all of this like the negativity of like oh i have to because
my dad says he really wants me to or like my coach is going to be sad if i don't or like
whatever it is you know i feel like a lot of people like actually have those kind of thoughts
going through their head and i was definitely fortunate to have like a very supportive crew
of people around me including like my family and coaches and all that yeah and then also like through
youtube you've kind of gotten yourself into like some coaching opportunities um do you have like a
proudest coaching moment oh that's a good question um yeah i mean overall youtube just started off
as being like a really fun way to like share these moments but evolved into like a really cool way to
articulate my own processes at a higher level and like i feel like i learned a lot just by
trying to share tips and tricks along the way and then even just filming all like more of my sessions
was a really cool way to like go back and like actually learn and like connect that representation
of like what i thought i was doing with what i was actually doing for an actual coaching moment like
going over to to austria and coaching the youth national team there um last summer was really
was really cool i'm actually about to post a video from that trip um it's just like a travel montage
of like four weeks in europe and um i think the title will be something like training such like
staying fit while traveling uh and i it was a hard trip in that sense because we were just like moving
around and like just staying in a camper van that we rented and it was like tricky to like be
consistent with my my training and the ultimate takeaway was like just having a couple really
valuable like non-negotiables for each day is is huge um but the coaching in austria was amazing so
they had like their own training center there um and i spent like two days with this one there's like
uh it was in dormbrit but uh it was like their youth national team that like trains together
and they'll all go to like a sports school there so their coach can just take them out whenever to
like have training practices and everyone's kind of on the same schedule and yeah it was really
cool like to think about the like the training environment that they had created there that
their their coach max had created um was super super powerful and um you have a bunch of kids
that like different age levels and abilities that are all like working together and they get a really
collaborative like rich training environment so i think that's ultimately what all of our mind to
motion clinics are trying to like replicate as well um so that was that was pretty cool to work
with and then we did another uh mind to motion clinic where the main focus was just on breathing
and visualization those were like our two big takeaways that we wanted these kids to to walk
away with and at the very beginning we like asked everyone um or can we like explain these concepts
i mean like okay our goal is to like have you guys feel like really confident with these two things
like if you only two things you learned and you're like able to like tell your parents like hey like
this is what i learned like breathing like the double inhale specifically um and kind of the
the visualization aspect and hearing all the kids at the end of the clinic like there were a couple
times during the clinic when we like sat everyone down and i'm okay like what's one thing you've
like learned so far and like what's one thing we want to keep learning um like how how are you
going to implement this into your daily routine so you like actually feel confident enough to like
use it in a competition um hearing like 12 out of like the 15 people or whatever they're like oh
like the breathing techniques and like the mental kind of reframing was like so helpful and i'd like
i know i'm going to use that in the next competition that was a pretty cool moment um because like
that's what i would have wanted to learn when i was their age as well and i think that would have
helped me like so so much so that's yeah it's been a really rewarding way to like kind of connect with
uh climbers old and yeah yeah i kind of feel like teaching kids these like young kids these
techniques of like staying focused and in the moment is probably really helpful for them though
because i don't know kids can be kind of crazy with their emotions they definitely
uh yeah not always regulated yet so totally yeah it's a fun challenge i'm like how do you
synthesize like this pretty complex like process of like down regulating and getting into this like
state of transient hyperfrontality like how do you explain that to like a 10 year old
and that's like super rewarding when it when it works um and just like simplifying those goals
as much as possible like all right like every time every attempt like i want to like hear you
take a deep breath before you get on the wall and then allowing them to like feel the difference
and like you don't you're not trying to directly tell them like how to do anyone move but you're
kind of just giving them hints and then they have like that aha moment like oh my gosh like this is
how it works like oh it's like taking that deep breath like really makes a huge difference or like
just smiling it's like floods your brain with all these like positive neurochemicals that allow you
to like climb better uh yeah so that's been fun for sure okay awesome i think that is a good place
to end those questions um real quick we'll go into some of the discord questions that came in um so
first one how do you effectively use skincare products like rhino skin repair performance and
or others for comp climbing and what should be the goal of filing your skin down i think i see that
you have rhino skin in the background so it's perfect oh yeah yeah that's right next to my bed
actually yeah i recognize it um i guess my my tip there is like having you need to have like a good
layer a healthy layer of skin before you like start drying it out a bunch so like you kind of
have to be thinking like a week or two ahead you know if you're going on a trip outside or
preparing for a comp or whatever um you want your skin to be very different for those two
situations yeah so i use like repair almost daily i think that's just a really good base
that like helps your skin stay healthy um and then performance um has a little bit of like
antihydrol in it or like the same active chemical as antihydrol uh and then dry is like a more
concentrated version of that so i'll use like performance sometimes like i don't know once a
week or whatever if i'm like in the same area um and then dry spray before competitions like it
takes a couple days to like activate i feel like uh or before going outside but it's really easy
to like have your skin be too hard and uh i was like surfing a bunch before this last week going
to the bay so my skin was like a little softer than normal so i put on a bunch of dry spray
and then i went to the bay which is like less humid than san diego because you're like in the
peninsula and not like quite as close to the water like i live like right next to the beach so my
skin is like it got used to like that level of humidity and then i put a bunch of dry spray on
and went to like a slightly drier area and my skin was like so hard and polished which should not
help with the greasy holds um and then yeah so like that's a situation where like filing your
skin can be helpful actually or definitely like filing the creases like where your finger bends
or i'll use like a razor blade to cut off any like excess skin in there or when i use dry spray i try
and like wipe like use a towel or my shirt or whatever to like wipe out the dry spray from
those creases so it doesn't get like just right in between the pads of my finger like super hard
because then it just like hurts when if like your whole hand is like leather it just makes it harder
to like bend your fingers i don't think i've quite gotten to that point but good to know
yeah so like filing down that or like using a razor blade or also like gua sha-ing it like
using one of these like little scraper tools and just like scraping your whole finger or like
just those joints to help them move a bit more fluidly and get the skin less leathery or even
like help flush out any scar tissue that's in the joints there is a good little tip
um yeah i think that kind of covers it for for skincare but just yeah if you're if your skin is
really soft adding dry spray or like these hardening agents it's gonna be a very temporary and like
bad fix because then you'll have like one or two layers of like really hard skin over a layer
of like soft icky skin and then you've got like just a couple attempts of like hard fiberglass
climbing before that skin layer is like gone and you're to like this soggy layer underneath
so it's like better to just be patient and like grow good skin and then have like your whole
the whole composite of it be like at the appropriate level of of hardness yeah i really
i really hate like the hard skin um i find that if that i climb better if my skin is not super dry
it's just like i don't know it sticks into the the holds better no i i agree for like indoor
climbing there's definitely why i guess it also depends like what style and like type of holds
you're climbing on like pure fiberglass you can get away with like having your skin like
you can get away with like having your skin a lot harder than like some other uh textured like types
of plastic and stuff like that makes sense um okay next question how do you incorporate climbing
outdoors into your training um any projects it's a good question yeah um lots of projects too many
projects i need to be more intentional with what i'm trying i actually i've been like relatively
good with that this year but uh i think depending on what you're training for again like having
specific goals but if you're training for like a comp uh outdoor climbing can be very conducive to
that if you are like okay i'm going to practice like executing and like flashing this boulder
and then again like bringing that challenge skill awareness to that like how hard can you actually
flash like trying to make it an appropriate level so you actually can do that um that's like for me
one of the most fun forms of climbing um it's like on-site being or like flashing boulders
or sport climbs for that matter but i just haven't done as much of that recently um but like in new
70 i was able to flash king air which is like this super cool pretty high ball a very high ball b10
um that dean potter first ascended and just like visualizing that and like again like the same
techniques as you'd bring to a comp but for an outdoor boulder um i like wrapped down it and just
like looked at the hold so i knew what i was like grabbing because like in a comp you would know
kind of what the holds are um but then like in that environment you don't have all this added
outside pressure and you can kind of try it on your own timetable so i spent like 45 minutes
at the base of this thing just like looking at it and getting into like the perfect hand space and
then i did it and it felt exactly how i like visualized it and imagined it to be and that
feeling was so so fun um where i got to the comp i was like oh my god i didn't even look down like
you're 25 plus feet up like doing like decently hard climbing um maybe yeah 25 is probably the
lift um and i was like i didn't even didn't look down wasn't aware at all of like anything but what
was right in front of me otherwise like i think it's valuable to like be able to like pull on
hard crimps and like kind of be comfortable and then comfortable in that sense um so even
like a couple years ago there was a training cycle that my buddy bopper and i did and actually in
rica who you were talking to um recommended where we trained like in the gym three days in the gym
one day um and then we did that for like four weeks straight and that was a really cool process
because it just got your like your mind so ready to like pull hard and like try hard and they kind
of trained the grit and like the the determination that just like not let go you know and then you
bring that same mindset to the gym and you're like way more comfortable like trying hard on
uncomfortable things awesome okay um this person wants to you know they're a big fan of the uncut
block series on youtube um and they want to know any memorable moments from your early years climbing
in the bay and favorite gyms in the bay which you clearly have some very strong opinions on um
yeah you should just go to the bowling field if you're anywhere remotely close i mean growing up
in in the bay it was a really cool like environment because we like had that really strong
team and um some really good coaches that were like talking about a lot of the things i've talked
about like on this podcast and just thinking about more than how strong your fingers are and
how many one arm pull-ups you can do you know um i mean planet credit uh san francisco i guess
it's the movement sf now right in the procedio like right underneath the golden gate bridge is
always a pretty cool venue and i remember doing like a training day there with my whole team where
we like ran across the golden gate bridge like from the gym we like started raced all the way
up across the golden gate bridge and back to the gym and that was like the start of our practice
and i remember getting back and throwing up because i was trying to beat this one kid i didn't
i wasn't very good at running that's the only time i've ever actually thrown up from training
um so yeah don't don't do that but uh um yeah that was uh just like a cool gym and like
pretty pretty unique walls at the time now they're definitely a bit dated but uh um just a cool
environment to be in be able to like look at the golden gate bridge and the whole bay area there
um oh sessions in santa rosa kevin jorgensen's gym is also quite good so if you're in the bay area
like berkeley or something like that that could be worth going to mosaic is really nice as well
that's newer and pretty small but right in berkeley but they always have a couple good
comp climbs and then benchmark is also pretty nice not as much like comfy stuff but they've
got a really nice spray wall that like keenan and katie train on a lot that's definitely like
the best spray wall in the bay area like outdoor style like hard crimp bain spray wall
um but there's really not a lot of like good comp climbs like
like 10 good comp climbs i would say in the whole area at any given moment
wow okay i mean that's like with a pretty harsh standard but uh do you feel like it's a lot better
here in san diego yeah well yeah grotto has a good bit i don't think i see as much in mesa rim but
yeah it kind of depends mesa used to have like some of the best setting and then some of the
setters left and like when other places but on the ropes front i think they still have some of the
best climbs like best some of the best commercial set rope climbs in the nation for sure um so yeah
props props to that um north city usually has some pretty nice boulders as well
oh right it's just a little far but yeah at that point we have like our own space at the wall which
is a really tiny old gym but then i'll build out a whole backspace like a training zone there so
we can just set whatever we want and get a bit more experimental with movement and then he has like
the most heinous spray wall i've like ever climbed on where like every move you just have to like
be very intentional with like the position and how you're like holding the holds and using your feet
and everything like that okay um another question and then i think we might have time for one more
depending on how fast your answer is um favorite non-us competitors or teams to train with well um
yeah i mean there's a lot of really cool teams to trade with um i've climbed with like the french
team quite a bit um and they're like training center in roul definitely seeing that wrong
but uh it's like near grenoble near grenoble in in france is really cool um and they're like
setting is probably some of the best best overall like or highest average like setting of any nation
i've been to um and overall like europe like the centers are just like so so good um i feel like
they just treat it like an art form and there's a yeah good amount of centers in the u.s that are
like that as well but overall there's just like a much deeper like connection and like pride that
comes with like setting and like actually learning and getting better and like testing new types of
movement and stuff like that and i think that's like because the gyms value that more like maybe
in the u.s it's a bit it's definitely like way more commercialized and they don't care about like
like paying the setters enough to like actually have time to like set good boulders or like
it's just like a a machine rather than creating really cool climbs um yeah so french team is cool
like the japanese team is really crazy just to watch and climb with as well um i mean really
like all the teams austrians have a lot of cool trading zones like i've spent a lot of time in
edsbrook trading at ki um their ropes are yeah best best rope climbs like in the world probably
at ki um the boulders are a bit not as consistent i would say um at least if you're not climbing on
like the world cup boulders that are set like specifically for the national team um
um was in belgium for a comp there that was super cool um very high level of setting as well um the
italian team is like they're all i don't want to and now i gotta name all the countries so i don't
leave anyone out yeah exactly the swiss team super fun got some friends there the brits haven't
been to the uk yet but uh fun to trade with those boys yeah everyone germany you got some fun some
fun clouds hit pretty much most of them all right yeah actually you didn't mention slavonia oh yeah
so lady is super cool that was like one of my most favorite comps was actually the the one in
lubliana right like in the center of town like they built this huge wall it felt like it was like the
most hype comp i've been to where it started at like 10 the finals did they had like a dj playing
like crazy loud like house tech music and then like big steam cannons that like went off as you
like ran out of iso and the like mascot of the city was like this huge dinosaur so like at sports
games you know how they have like the mascot person running around that guy was like on the
pad just like giving you high fives and yeah i was a pretty hyped crowd yeah sorry if i left
your country off the list chile brazil it's hard to name all of the countries yeah
understandable all i can edit in you saying all of them maybe perfect perfect okay quick we'll
just try to do one more uh trying to find a good one um how's the dynamic in the u.s national team
between the guys is it more competitive or supportive uh that's a very good question
i mean overall yeah it's very supportive like i it's a super fun career people who like travel
and and climb and train with um i think it's maybe more like individualized than it could be
i mean that's like i'm sure that's true like high level sports like kind of anywhere but i think
there's a lot to learn from one another and i don't feel like that's always
maximized in terms of like learning what like if you make a mistake and it like you figured out
a really good solution to it like i want to know about that and like i think we could have more
conversations around that and that's something i'd like try just to like ask people about and
like start those conversations but overall yeah it's a super group good career people and
very fun to go travel to these new places and go explore these zones with everyone yeah i mean you
i guess you don't um live in utah so you're not always training with them um do you feel like
that makes it kind of hard i did live there for like three years but for like two years i guess
i mean there's not of the national team i guess like we didn't train together as much as i thought
everyone would in utah and that kind of is the same same thing i was just talking about we're like
uh actually like in san diego i i learned more because it's like a more collaborative
environment like that and but yeah that's like a very big generalization but uh i think it's
it's really fun to go back and like have those like super rich training environments in salt lake
where you have like when you can organize everyone uh it's like the best but because there's like so
many gyms and so many people doing like so many things it's sometimes hard to like actually
capitalize on like all of that energy and all of that like talent in that one zone whereas like
the japanese or like french teams are like required by like their federations to like live in the same
zone and they're paid some of them to like climb and like be a part of like the national team
so they like move to a training center there's like two main training centers one i mentioned
like near granada and one in uh font and then everyone like trains there and like you're just
constantly in this like super rich learning environment with like yeah all your teammates
yeah i didn't know they did that uh well i guess i thought in japan they're also kind of pretty like
individualized and spread out yeah maybe i'm wrong about japan but i thought they definitely like
train as it grew more i mean and to be fair like the u.s has gotten like way better uh with that
and like having the training center in salt lake is like a massive step because there is just like a
central zone for everyone to climb up but i mean just having the usb so big it's like it's hard to
have everyone be in the same place and uh but yeah it's been really cool to have like national team
training camps at the tc and like have more coaches and more setting and all of that uh all those
resources cool um that's probably all the questions we should go through for today um yeah thanks for
joining me um is there anything you want to shout out or like last words or let people know where
they can find you yeah uh i guess my instagram and youtube are just ross fokerson i always love
hearing from people like you've got suggestions for videos or other things that you've uh like
seeing i've always liked to hear about that and i uh whenever anyone like comes up in the gym or
whatever i always try and ask like what are your like what would you want to see more of like
in the youtube videos or like what's the most like helpful piece in terms of like coaching or stuff
like that um so it's always just fun to hear from from fans in that regard um don't be afraid to
come up and say hi unless i'm super focused um unless i'm doing my my double inhale breath work
no i'm joking uh yeah but overall i just i think uh just building that awareness on the wall is
is huge like everything all the coaching little tips and things we talked about today like you
have to be like intentional with that and like actually uh want to like get better at something
so if you're wanting like have a have a goal have something want to improve that and then just be
aware of like how you're climbing and uh then when you hear a tip or like someone tells you like how
to actually climb better like implement some certain thing like you have the awareness to
actually do that well um so yeah i would encourage everyone just to to take that kind of like
learning approach to climbing if they find it fun like you don't have to like always be like training
and getting better but uh it's a cool way to like keep things really engaging and you'd be surprised
like how quickly you can progress if you actually just make those goals and like try to get better
awesome tips and uh great great advice to end on um yeah thank you for sharing that with us
to end on um yeah thank you again uh good luck in your future world cups this year we'll be
waiting for you and it was amazing to talk to you likewise i really enjoyed being on and uh
hopefully we do a second one later down the line or something gosh yeah you have a i'm sure you
have a lot more to say i have a lot more to ask that i didn't even get through yeah yeah maybe
leave a comment on this podcast or one of my youtube videos for other questions you'd want
answered in the second episode yeah definitely oh and for like all my coaching stuff uh either on
mind to motion or uh sometime in the relatively near future i'm gonna try and release my own
uh like online coaching modules so stay tuned for that okay awesome yeah and i'll link all of it in
the description or yeah description boxes and etc oh awesome thank you awesome have a good rest
your day thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast don't forget to like and
subscribe if you enjoyed otherwise you are a super fake climber if you're listening on a podcasting
platform i'd appreciate if you rated five stars and you can continue the discussion on the free
competition climbing discord linked in the description thanks again for listening