it was really hard to push my voice and be like,
hey, you know, I'm actually here because I'm a female
and I'm testing these routes for the females,
but then your opinion gets lost.
They're a lot better climber with their condition
than what I am trying to pretend to climb like that.
So I'm like, I always give them the benefit of the doubt.
I think I started climbing about six or several weeks
after having Remy.
Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing
podcast.
I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce
my guest for today, Carlie LeBreton.
Carlie is the first female chief setter at an IFSC World
Championship, where she led a team of five
to set the world Paraclimbing Championships in Bern 2023.
She's been climbing for over 20 years
and setting for almost just as long,
so she has a lot of experience.
In this episode, we'll learn about all the things
you have to keep in mind when setting world championship
routes for Paraclimbers, what it's
like in the route setting scene as a female setter,
and what it's like owning a climbing gym, which
I am super jealous of.
Hope you enjoy this episode with Carlie.
Yeah, how are you doing today?
Yeah, not too bad.
My son was up all night vomiting.
Oh my god.
Yeah, sort of bad.
Yesterday still.
Yeah, so it's like 7 AM here.
And at about midnight it started.
And I'm just like, oh, not tonight.
I need to be up early.
But that's OK.
He's chilling out on the lounge.
He's doing a little better now?
A little bit, yeah.
Still a bit warm.
But yeah, just a bug, I guess.
Yeah, I mean, if you need to take a break and do anything,
feel free to just let me know.
My husband Rob's out there.
He's pretty good.
OK, sounds good.
And I mean, I guess are you still
planning on going out to climb today then?
I don't know.
We haven't had much sleep.
So we'll see how we go.
Yeah, it's supposed to be around 40 degrees today, which
I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit,
but it's really hot.
Oh yeah, in Celsius.
Yeah, yeah, OK.
I wasn't sure I had to think about it for a bit.
Yeah.
I've actually never been to the southern hemisphere, I think.
So whenever I have to think about the seasons being
different, it really, really messes with me.
Yeah, yeah.
It'd be nice to be in winter.
I really hate summer.
Yeah, I guess it gets pretty extreme there.
I've never been, so I have no idea.
Yeah, yeah.
The last couple of summers, it's been quite wet.
So we haven't had a full summer of 40 degrees.
But this summer has been a lot warmer than normal.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I hope you do get a chance to go out.
But yeah, I guess I don't know what
will happen with your son.
How old is your son, by the way?
He's nine.
So he went back to school after the summer break,
like two days ago.
So it could have been that all the kids coming back together
again.
Yeah, that's around the age.
I remember I was a really sick kid.
I would constantly just be getting illnesses.
I would be stomach flu all the time.
That was a regular occurrence for me.
Oh, no.
That's horrible.
Yeah, it's just kids.
Oh, yeah.
They bring home everything.
Yeah, hopefully you don't catch anything.
I'm a bit scared if I start to feel like, oh.
Yeah, that's the worst.
Oh, well, it's OK.
We can get into motherhood a bit later.
I did want to ask a bit about that,
because that's a totally different experience.
But yeah, getting right into it, when and how did you
get into climbing and setting?
I started in 1995, so almost 20 years ago, 25 years ago,
just through school.
So we used to pick a sport each week.
And I went to the local climbing gym, which had only
been open for a year.
So climbing gyms were quite new.
And then, yes, I picked climbing.
And then that was it for the rest of my school.
I just climbed.
You're just immediately new.
Yep, I was hooked.
And I think maybe about six months later, I
got a job there washing holds.
And so that was my second home for my whole school years.
And then it was probably not long after.
The owner was just like, hey, you
want to try setting a route?
And I was putting up routes really early, maybe
a couple of years in.
I got to wash all the holds.
So you get familiar with washing them.
We were washing them by hand with a brush.
Oh, you didn't have the power washers?
No, no.
We had a big sink of hot water, boiling hot water,
scrubbing them with a toothbrush or a brush.
And I thought it was great.
I got to buy my first climbing shoes, my harness, a rope.
It was a great start into my climbing career.
Yeah, so you've been setting for a long time then too.
Yep, commercially setting a long, long time.
And then I started comp setting probably around 2005.
So that's still a while as well.
So did you have to take courses?
I don't know how it works in Australia,
but here there are some courses that you can take
to get certified.
And we still don't really have that either.
At the moment, you just set for a state level competition,
and you'll get assessed by the head setter.
And then you'll set at a nationals,
and you'll get assessed by the national head setter.
And then you're accredited.
Gotcha.
So you just get recommended to set for these things?
Yep, you apply, and then the setting committee
selects you based on your experience.
It's a small community here, so we pretty well
know everyone that sets around all the different gyms.
Yeah, so back early on, there wasn't many setters at all.
So it was like I was competing a lot.
So then I was just like, oh, hey, I might start
setting for these events.
And I was probably the only female at the time setting.
And so you also were doing competitions.
Were you doing it at a national level or an IFSC level?
I was competing since I started climbing,
so as a young age, as a junior.
There wasn't many juniors here in Australia
around the late 90s.
So I was competing as an open.
And I won my first nationals in 97.
And then I won every year for quite a few years in a row.
So I was national champion.
And then I went to the States and did
a bunch of touchstone international juniors.
And that was like 98, 99, and 2000, I think.
OK, I didn't know they had that.
Yeah, yeah, a lot of countries came to it.
I remember competing against South Africa,
a couple of European countries.
They don't still do that, do they?
I don't think I've seen.
No, no, I think it was only for like a couple of years
in a row.
But I won my age category in 99.
So that was like 18, 19 years.
Yeah, so I competed nationally and internationally
for a while.
I did a whole bunch of X Games in Malaysia and Thailand.
And I didn't get to any World Cups.
And then in terms of back to setting,
how did you specifically get into setting for Paraclimbers?
I think it was around 2015, we had some climbers,
some Paraclimbers that were keen to start competing.
And we didn't have the category for it.
So it was just like, yeah, let's start,
and we'll set a couple of routes,
and we'll go from there.
So I think it was Nationals 15 that we had maybe two
competitors.
It was in Queensland.
And then from then on, we kind of got a few extra climbers
in each state and each Nationals.
And up to the point where I think this state titles that
we're about to have in Sydney, we've
got maybe 10 competitors, which is our highest competitors.
Yeah, did you have to do any extra clinics or courses
in order to start setting for Paraclimbers?
No.
Well, we don't have any setting classes anyway.
So it was just a matter of chatting to the competitors.
I climbed with a couple of them just
to see how they moved and what to expect.
And then it was a matter of just setting and going from there.
And I think with my background and experience,
we did a pretty good job of it helped climbing with them
very much.
And I think at the IFSC level, during my last interview
with Anita and Christian, I think
I learned that there's a handbook on setting
for Paraclimbers for IFSC.
So can you go over what's in there and some of the things
that you have to keep in mind for each sports class?
Yeah, so the handbook kind of talks
about the different categories and the different grades
that we're setting.
And then it talks about different angles
and what categories shouldn't be on.
We use the speed wall a lot.
So we've got certain categories that don't like that.
Then there's categories that don't like super steep.
So you've got to be mindful of volumes,
that maybe some of the AL categories and RP categories,
they don't have that range of movement to go around,
be bulky volumes.
Some of the categories don't like in the World Cups.
We're always setting on a super steep wall.
So the big blade wall, which is really steep
and it's quite challenging to get some of those categories
up and into the route.
Which are the classes that don't like the steep wall?
Because I thought with like amputee categories,
that would probably be preferred since a lot of them
are often like canvassing.
Yep, yep.
So the AL categories generally like the steep.
And I think it's different in whoever you talk to.
They have their preferences.
But like an RP category, so range of movement, RP1,
they find the steep quite tricky because they're not,
they can't move their legs up as high.
So in the steep, their bodies become out
and then they find it really challenging.
Also, you've got to watch out for like the holds
that you're using.
So anything that's like quite rounded on a steep terrain
is quite hard.
You can't get that like pulling power.
Yeah, do you find that there's like one sports class that
is hardest for you to set?
I reckon I find the AU category, so upper amputee.
So anyone that's, their reach will be a little different
because they're either going with their full arm
or their half arms.
And then they're holding holds quite with their stump.
They're holding quite holds different to what
we would hold them.
So when we're testing, we're like, oh, you know,
trying to hold it with our palm or we're like.
But then I'm always thinking that they're
a lot better climber with their condition than what
I am trying to climb, pretend to climb like that.
So I'm like, I always give them the benefit of the doubt
and think, yep, they're strong.
They can do this.
But the big one for that is reach.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think that reminds me of one of the Discord questions
that came through, which was when setting for para climbers
is the fact that disabilities are often
asymmetrical a consideration.
So like, if it's like a left or right arm
and then they have like a stump on one and the other,
they have full reach.
So then how does it kind of work there?
Yeah, so we test for both left and right
and make sure that it's fair throughout the whole route.
We might think, OK, this move is a little bit
tricky for right amputee.
But then the next move is actually not too bad for left
or lower down.
And then kind of always adding like a little intermediate.
Or if it's lower amputee, we're adding
like another little foot jib or just
to make it fair on both sides.
Do you kind of like keep track of the number of like,
oh, this is easier for right and this is easier for left?
Or is it just more of like a vibe?
Yeah, it's more vibe and like always chatting
with the other setters and opinions across the board
matter.
Are there any, I guess, like para setters who are also
para climbers?
I think there is a couple in the States
that are starting to set more, but internationally not yet.
And that would be really cool to have a para climbing
on the setting team.
Yeah, great to have like another para
wise on what may or may not work as well.
Yeah, and just how it feels to them,
it feels a lot different to us.
Yeah, there's like not really a way of knowing, I guess.
You know, I follow a lot of the climbers on Instagram
and you can watch them climb and on different climbs
and see that.
So you have a pretty good idea.
Yeah, and so another part of it is that at the World Cups,
you can only set a certain number of routes
and there's a whole bunch of different classifications.
So how do you kind of go about setting
where different classifications have to climb the same route?
Yeah, it gets super tricky having
like a whole bunch of classes on one route.
And it's something that we've been
looking at the International Roots
Seeding Paraclimbing Committee, trying to get more routes
or change up the timetable so we can allow
them to split the categories.
But yeah, it's really tricky having like an AU category
competing against an AL category.
But so there always tends to be like one route that has
a whole bunch of categories on it.
And you kind of know that it's not
going to be ideal for one of those,
but it's a sacrifice that we have to do, you know.
You've got to keep testing and testing and testing,
and hopefully it works.
So is it always the same categories that get
merged onto the same route?
It tends to be, yeah.
Just the way the format and the timetable is.
We only have one day for qualifications
and one day for finals.
So you have to, you know, and every year it's getting bigger.
So yeah, the timetable is just kind of pushing out.
In one day you have so many competitors
doing this one route that has to be used
for one of the categories.
How do you think your setting would
change if you were just like given the ability
to set a different route for each sports class?
It would give us heaps more freedom
to be able to set for that class properly.
Yeah.
I think the change ended up this year,
and they are kind of splitting it
to qualifications and finals in one day for different classes.
So you'll have a certain number of classes on this day
and a certain number of us on that day.
So maybe overnight you get a chance to tweak that route
and make it a little bit fairer for that class.
I think it's going to take some time
to think about how it's going to work,
and we can go from there.
Yeah.
I guess for each class, what would kind of change?
Can you visualize how you would tweak it
to make it maybe the perfect route for a blind climber
or an amputee climber or an RP climber?
No, I don't think there's the perfect route for them
because climbing, it's so different every time you set
and you don't get set with what you've got,
the holds and the wall and the volume.
I find it's best just to set as you would normally.
You want to show the best product on the wall,
and then you kind of test for that class.
So you just set a normal route and be like,
this looks cool, this works, it looks like a good climb,
and then you test and just tweak little things as you go.
And so are you testing with various,
I know you mentioned earlier you would sometimes
try to test without using your palm or something like that.
Do you forerun the routes with various, I guess, handicaps?
Is that the right word?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we definitely throughout the three to five setters,
how many we've got, we'll each take a class.
So we might be like, OK, you test with left amputee,
right amputee, a lower, and then we go from there.
And even hanging on the rope, we might just switch sides just
to test the crux or something like that.
So I guess you've also tried climbing with a blindfold on
or something like that.
Yeah, yeah.
With blind, we don't test it generally
with our eyes closed because we know their ability
and we know how they climb.
The blind climbers tend to be really, really strong
because they're locking off and they're kind of reaching
and feeling at the same time.
So we kind of because there's lots of static movement.
So we try not to have massive dinos or big dead points.
I mean, are there ever dinos for the blind category?
That sounds a little bit insane.
No, no, no.
Sometimes maybe a little bit higher dead point.
But we wouldn't put a dino or a paddle or something
like that in there.
Yeah.
That would be crazy.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
But they are pretty adventurous.
I'm sure if we tested them with something like that,
they'd be up for it.
Yeah, that would be interesting to see.
Have you ever set a move for paragliding
that just did not work out at all the way
that you wanted it to or expected it to?
I was trying to think of something
to answer that question, but I couldn't quite think
in terms of moves.
In terms of like hold types that we've used, yes.
There's always maybe an incident where you're like,
oh, that hold just wasn't the best for that category.
I think the World Cup, the World Championships in Bern,
there was a final on the massive steep wall for the RP1
categories, so their range of movement.
They found it really hard on the start
because they were these massive big macros,
and they were really slopey.
And so there was kind of nothing for them to pull with.
They were really open-handed.
But they were the holds that we had to use in terms of sponsors.
And so it was kind of like we had to make do with what we had,
but it wasn't ideal.
Yeah, I'll have to look back at that,
see if I can find it and link it for people to see.
Yeah, they were massive blocks.
I think they were macros.
And they were beautiful holds, but they just
weren't for that category.
Did you already know before they started climbing on it
that it would be an issue, or you didn't realize until after you
saw them?
Yeah, we thought, OK, we've done the best we can with this.
It should work.
But then afterwards, we had a few people falling off quite low.
And we're like, yeah, maybe we could have done something.
We did them, so we screwed big holds onto them to try and help that.
But we just didn't have the ideal hold that we wanted to screw on there.
Yeah, because I guess you have just requirements from the IFSC
on what kind of holds you're allowed to use.
Yeah, and for Bern, there were certain sponsorships
that they had that supplied all the holds.
And they did a really good job.
We had an amazing, amazing set of holds to choose from.
It was a really fun event coming in and seeing all these holds up
on the grandstand.
And we were just like, oh, wow, this is really cool.
Yeah, did you get any, I guess, complaints from the athletes
on that setting where it was just too difficult?
Yeah, we did have a few people come over and just let us know.
And I think that's perfectly fine to have the feedback.
And we're always learning what we can do better next time
and what worked and what didn't.
So I think feedback is great.
And I guess, do you have a suggestion on how
people can get into setting for Paraclimbers specifically?
Probably the best thing to do is just contact
the local Paraclimbing Committee groups
and to see if people are setting for them
and get into your regionals, your state level,
and then the national competitions.
Yeah, chat to the Paraclimbers.
They're always happy to have a chat and tell you what works
and what doesn't.
Yeah.
Yeah, there's not many people setting for Parac,
so it's always good to have more people.
Yeah, and I think it's growing as well,
especially if it ends up making it into the Paralympics.
I think that'd be really great.
Oh, yeah, that'd be exciting.
Do you think you would be able to set for that
if that ended up happening in 2028?
Oh, I would love to.
It'd be amazing to be able to set at the Olympics.
But there's quite a few of us on the international team.
So it would just be a matter of who gets selected to go
and who's the best people.
Be cool.
Yeah, definitely.
And I mean, Byrne was really cool as well.
I think I saw that Byrne marked you
being the first female chief route setter at a world
championship.
For world championships, yeah.
Yeah, OK.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Congrats on that.
Thank you.
And so back in the day when you first started setting,
it was quite early.
It was quite a long time ago.
There were even fewer women in climbing and setting.
So how was it like trying to break into route setting
back then?
And I guess, how does it compare to now?
Yeah, I think I was super lucky to break into setting
because there wasn't many people actually setting for comps
because most people were trying to compete.
So it was a matter of, hey, we need setters
to be able to set for this comp.
Like, who can set?
And as most incidents, I was the only female for a while
setting these lead comps.
And then as it got more popular, there
was more setters coming along.
And again, a lot of the time, I was the only female.
As bouldering got more popular, there
was a couple more females setting.
But I think I was lucky to be around in that era
when there was a desperate need for setters.
So I kind of just fell into it.
And my husband and I ran the association for a while
as well.
So we were actually running the comps as well
as at a national level.
So you said a lot of people wanted to just compete
instead of setting.
So do you feel like you kind of gave up the competing route
so that you could take on the route setting journey?
Yeah, I did have to make a decision about whether I
wanted to keep competing or setting.
I really enjoyed the setting.
And I felt like I was good at it.
And I was experienced.
And I knew that I had to kind of do it.
So there was a female testing.
There was always a problem with, like I remember
from back in the day, there was no female setters.
So there was no one testing those moves that the girls
were on.
So I felt like it was my duty to be a setter and be like, OK,
I can do these moves and test these moves at a high level.
I should jump in and do this.
So the routes are great and fair.
And it's not always like a dude's moves and, you know,
stalker moves or whatever.
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Back to the show.
And how do you feel like it compares
to trying to become a route setter now as a woman?
Do you think it's easier?
Like, have we made enough progress
or is there still a lot more that needs to be done?
Yeah, I think we have made a lot of progress.
We have a lot more space for learning
in terms of female or women setters.
Like when people apply for competitions,
I know in Australia we have a lot more females applying.
It's not 50-50, but it's definitely getting up there.
And the space is quite welcoming in terms of setting dynamics
with the guys.
When it got more popular and I was setting with,
I was the token female on the team,
it was really hard to push my voice and be like, hey,
I'm actually here because I'm a female
and I'm testing these routes for the females.
And then your opinion gets lost a lot of the time.
But I think things are really different these days.
We have some really good males on the team that are quite open.
And we have the space to learn as well.
Yeah, that's good to hear.
And earlier you had mentioned testing it out
so there wouldn't be stopper moves on the women's routes.
I guess how would you characterize
setting for men's climbing versus women's climbing?
Because as a non-setter, I really
have no idea what feels different in that way.
Yeah, I think reach is probably the most common mistake.
So I'm a 5'1 climber, so I'm quite short.
So then I'll test every route for the females
or even for the, like I said, the regular youth comps as well.
So I'm at a good height where some of the kids
actually are way taller than me.
Yeah, but I think that's super important for a female route,
I think, is reach.
I know in Australia there's a huge range of reach
in the female category.
So it's super important to make sure it's fair.
Anything else to do with box size or flexibility,
or does that come into play much?
Not generally.
Climbers would do what they're best at, of course,
and everyone is different.
And you'd be like, oh, I didn't realize the moves
could be done like that.
That's interesting.
But yeah, I don't think, yeah.
I think reach is probably the best one.
Do you think more female setters at the IFSC
would make a big difference?
Definitely always, in any incidence for sure.
But I think the IFSC are definitely
looking to change that up.
And there's some diversity program
that they have happening at the moment.
And there's been a couple of events
where there hasn't been a female on the team.
And I don't know if that's due to no one was available,
or they just had no one.
But I think they're trying to make sure
that there's a female on each team,
or if not one, there's a couple.
There's not many that are setting.
I know in Boulder, there's quite a few more female setting,
but not for Lee, only a few.
And again, those female women, they want to be competing.
As well.
Yeah, there's a couple of women on the lead teams
that actually compete still.
They compete and set?
No, they want to compete and do the World Cups themselves.
So they'll do a couple of years setting
and then a couple of years competing.
Oh, OK.
But I think that's changing with having a few more females that
can set.
Right, yeah.
Yeah, there was like someone on the French team, I think.
Yeah, Hannah.
She was setting for quite a few years,
and now she's gone back to competing.
Oh, what's the last name again?
Hannah.
I can't remember, sorry.
OK, we all have to look into that.
Yeah, did you do any IFSC setting not for paraclimbing?
No, I haven't as yet.
I applied to set Lee this year, but the IFSC
haven't put out any of their setters yet.
Hopefully, we find out.
Yeah.
Yeah, hopefully you make it in.
Did you apply like previous years as well?
And you just weren't selected?
No, this is the first year I've applied for a non-para place.
Yeah.
Yeah, that'll be exciting.
What do you have like a favorite kind of move
that you like to set or like a certain style that you
feel like is unique to you?
I think, no, I generally like setting lead routes more,
because that's, I guess, preferably what I like climbing.
I like to set like super sustained routes.
So there's nothing hard, but it just slowly, slowly, slowly
builds.
And by the top, you're just like super box pumped,
and you're like just holding on.
I think that's kind of classically my type of route
that I'll set.
Just super pumpy.
Sounds awful.
It's amazing.
I only boulder for right now, so yeah, that
sounds like a nightmare to me.
No, there's nothing better than helping us climb.
And like your forearms are like blowing up,
and you're just like, that was awesome.
I was pumped.
I get like pretty freaked out once I
start to feel the pump.
It like triggers this thing inside my brain that's
just like panic mode.
Oh, right.
Yeah, you got to try and do a few more circuits.
Yeah, probably.
Yeah.
But yeah, as you were talking about earlier,
you are also a mother.
And I am kind of curious how that has impacted,
I guess, your climbing and setting career.
Yeah, well, when Remy was born, I kind of
had a few years off setting just because it was mayhem,
of course.
Yeah, but you kind of learn as the time goes on,
and you're like, OK, I've got to rethink how I train,
rethink how I'm going to work.
You end up doing like really short sessions,
but maybe more of them just because of the time.
And I think my climbing has actually
improved because I know my time is valuable,
and I've just got to like, OK, I've got one hour.
Got to get in, do my session, and get it done.
Yeah, so I've actually become a better climber.
I'm a stronger climber now than I was before having Remy.
Yeah, I've just learned a lot.
Yeah, I think the thought of doing that
has always terrified me.
So I kind of feel this rush that I
need to get as strong as possible, as early as possible,
because it's all just going to disappear soon.
So that's nice to hear.
Yeah, I think you've just got to be really dedicated to it.
And it's hard work.
It's hard being like, oh, man, I've still got to train today,
or I'm not going to train today.
But then if you've just got that willpower to be like,
no, I can get it done.
I'll feel much better if I can get an hour session in.
And then everyone is happy, if you're happy.
Yeah, did you do any climbing or training while pregnant?
Because I've seen some people do it,
and it looks a little terrifying.
But I have seen it happen.
Yeah, I had a lot of complications
with a couple of pregnancies.
So that last kind of pregnancy with Remy, I was just like,
no, I'm not going to do anything.
I was recommended to just rest.
So I just did that.
So I didn't climb for, yeah, nine to 10 months.
I think I started climbing about six or seven weeks
after having Remy.
That's pretty fast.
Yeah, I had a cesarean as well, so I just had to take it.
So for a couple of months, I just climbed super easy,
enjoyed being at the gym, doing a few laps.
And yeah.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
Wait, I think I heard that I've heard a lot of horror stories
about pregnancy in general.
So maybe that's where my concerns come from.
Yes, yeah.
But yeah.
But I heard that if you have a C-section,
then it cuts through all of your muscles as well.
And so you can't even use your core.
I've heard people can't even pick up their babies
or hold their babies because their core is too weak.
Yeah, it depends on the incident for sure.
You do lose core.
I found coming back, the core was the last thing to engage.
Yeah.
Even just climbing and lifting your foot up to the next hole
was hard work.
Yeah.
But I just did lots of super easy climbing and enjoyed it.
And it came back.
Yeah.
But I reckon it would be one of my weaknesses.
It's healed now.
It'd be cool.
Yeah.
But I mean, you were still able to start climbing six weeks
after?
Yeah.
Just you had to be like, OK, I can't do anything hard.
Just got to go easy.
And if you're willing to do that,
then the process is quite good.
How long do you feel like it took you to get back
into pre-pregnancy shape?
I reckon a year.
Yeah.
Because your baby is really little
and you may not get climbing one week or things happen.
And so I think probably the inconsistency
of climbing that first year is probably the major factor
to getting back into it.
Yeah.
I mean, actually, a year's not bad at all.
I kind of, I mean, clearly, I've had a very,
I've heard a lot of nightmare stories.
Yeah.
And having a supportive partner is probably
the next major thing that helps you get back
into your climbing, sharing the load
and having support around helps.
Yeah.
Having a plan.
Yeah, a little bit less scared.
Yeah, you'll be right.
Yeah, so moving on, you had also mentioned to me
that you own a gym, which I'm super jealous of
because that's something that I always
was really something that I dreamed of a couple of years
back and then I took a look into the finances of it all
and I'm like, I don't have the money for that.
So yeah, if you don't mind, I would
love to live through you and learn about what that's
like to own a gym.
Yeah, yeah, tell me a bit about it.
I've worked in a climbing gym basically my whole life.
So I've grown up in a gym.
I got the opportunity to manage Villa Wood from the start.
So I was managing the gym for like about five years
when me and my husband were like, oh, maybe we
should look into opening a new gym.
It was kind of the start of the phase of a lot of bouldering
gyms popping up or a couple had.
And then it was like the owners of Villa Wood were like, well,
why don't you just buy in and get some shares in here?
Like you're running the place, you know how it works.
And I was like, yeah, that makes sense.
So yeah, we bought like bought into like half the gym.
And that's been it ever since.
I think we've owned it for six years now.
We're going on to 13 years being open.
So I've been there a while now.
And since you also set for like world champs
and big national level competitions,
do you also tend to set more comp style stuff in your gym?
Yeah, so we host a lot of national and state events
at Villa Wood.
So we try, so we have the lead walls to set comp style routes.
And a lot of the Sydney climbers know
that if you go to Villa Wood, you're
going to get like X, Y, and Z on these walls.
You're going to get some hard comp routes to train on.
So with my set team, we set comp hard lead routes all the time.
But then we also have to think about the general public.
So we set a lot of commercial style routes as well.
Yeah, it's I think hard to get the right balance.
I don't know what it's like in Australia.
But as far as I've seen in the US, lots of gyms around me,
people will complain about there being too much comp
style in the gyms.
OK.
Yeah, is that like a similar experience in Australia?
I think it would be the opposite, actually.
Yeah, not enough gyms are setting harder comp style routes.
Yeah, they're definitely marketed towards the beginner
kind of commercial set.
There would be a few gyms that definitely have
set a few comp style routes.
And the difficulty has to be hard as well.
It has to be a certain level for the top guys to be like,
oh, yeah, I'm going to go to this gym
because I know I'm going to get this to train on.
But yeah, I think the gyms need to, you know,
I think the harder you set, the harder your climbers are going
to move up the ladder.
And there's going to be more people at that elite level.
I guess there's a difference between hard sets,
not comp style versus comp style.
I think here people want to see, I don't know,
just hard pulling or really small holds
or something like that rather than tricky comp style climbs.
But yeah, there's always a lot of uproar about that here.
Yeah, yeah.
So there's a lot of difference between setting hard
and setting comp style hard for sure.
And with a lot of boulder gyms around,
that there is a lot more comp style problems being set.
And some people just want boulders
you can train on and get strong on.
So yeah, it's a fine line.
We have a lot of boulder gyms in Sydney.
So we tend to set more of that hard style training
focus at Villa Wood because I know it's different
and people come to train strength basically at Villa
Wood.
And then we have our big lead wars
that we have all these kind of hard, hard climbs
to train on.
You could be doing laps or on site practice or yeah.
Do you also do any setting for like para climbers in the area?
We do a few different workshops for them
where we'll focus on setting for a couple of different classes
if we know there's a couple of climbers around.
And they'll generally just get in contact with me
and be like, hey, I'm coming out for a weekend.
Yeah, but I've done it in the past
where I've set a wall for different classes.
Yeah, it's hard to do all the time.
And generally, like para climbers
will just jump on normal able-bodied climbers routes
and just give it a go because it will be weaknesses
that they need to train.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I guess like when they go outside and climb,
it's not really set specifically with them in mind either.
No, you have to work out a way to do it with your disability.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Very cool.
I hope one day I can figure out how to get into the gym scene
on my own gym, have some kind of vision.
Yeah, get a few people involved.
It's always easy.
Yeah, I would love to have a very comp-focused gym.
I've seen one of the gyms in, I think, Hawaii.
They set a different showcase comp-style boulder
every week or so.
And I think something like that would be really cool.
Yeah, I think a few gyms do that for sure.
They'll have their king line for the week
where that one wall has just this one beautiful looking boulder.
And then it might get filled in later.
Right, yeah.
Do you guys do that or no?
Yeah, we tend to do that as well.
Yeah, and it gives the setters a day to have a play
and kind of play with those different style boulder problems
or lead routes, which are the same.
Cool.
So I think now's a good time we can just
get into some of the Discord questions.
These are ones submitted by people in the community who
had questions for you.
And it's just kind of like a grab bag
of all of your experience.
So the first one, have you ever felt
like people have a conscious or unconscious bias against you
or doubt your skills because you're a female setter?
Yeah, what needs to happen to get more women
sitting at the top level?
Yeah, I think always it plays on your mind
that you're like, maybe I'm not good enough or maybe,
you know, that's always, I think, as anyone knows,
that it's always you're a bit debating in your head.
There's also been a couple of situations
where you've been sitting and it's like a move's gotten
changed, even though you couldn't do it
or something like that.
And yeah, and like the second part of the question,
to get more females involved, was it?
Yeah.
Yeah, like I think there's a really good movement happening
in Australia at the moment with having more workshops
available and more sessions about chatting
with different women in the industry.
And I think it's moving forward for us in Australia.
I know earlier you mentioned that, I guess, to like move up,
you would kind of, someone would be there to like,
I guess, watch your sets or judge your sets.
I forget the term you used.
Assessment.
Yeah, assessment.
Yeah.
So is that like a very stressful process,
like having someone judge it while you're setting?
No, I think we're pretty casual, I think, in Australia.
So pretty well anyone that is getting assessed passes,
I would say.
Yeah, I don't think we've failed many people.
Because I think when we're selecting people,
too, we're selecting people who we think are good enough
to be on the team.
So they're generally going to pass.
OK, that's good to know.
Next one, do you often get writer's block when setting?
And what's your process to find inspiration
if it doesn't come naturally?
Yeah, you definitely have days where you're kind of looking
at the holds and you're thinking, I'm blank.
I don't know what to do.
But I think the best thing is to just put some holds
on the wall, move them around, and talk to your team.
If you've got a few team members that are sitting with you
like on the same wall or whatever,
you've got to ask the questions.
And you've got to have really good team dynamics
to be able to ask and be like, hey, I'm
a bit stuck on this move.
Do you think I need to change the hold or put a volume on?
Or I think we all learn by talking and being a team.
Yeah, do you feel like when you get a new hold set,
do you kind of get into this thing
where you only want to set with the newer holds?
Because I kind of imagine it like putting together
outfits with different clothes.
You get a new shirt or something,
and all you can think about is wearing that new shirt.
Yeah.
I think so, yeah.
If you're out the back looking for some holds to put up next
and you're like, oh, they're the new ones.
I want to sit with them.
They're shiny.
They're bright.
Of course, yeah.
But then you're like, oh, but maybe I
could sit with these old classics because I know them
and I know how they work.
And yeah, so it fixes up with what you want to do, yeah.
Next one.
As a setter and as a gym owner, how often
do you think gym routes or boulders should be reset?
Does it depend on the type or style or grade
or the demographics of the gym users?
Yeah, I think it depends on how many people are coming
through the gym and how dirty the holds are getting.
And there's a lot of factors.
As the size of the gym, so with Thillawood,
we're quite a large gym.
We have top rows.
We have lead.
We have boulder.
So getting around the whole gym in terms of top ropes and leads
could take us six months.
But the boulders, we get around in eight weeks.
So it totally depends on the size of the gym.
But I think you need to be consistently
turning over those problems and routes
to keep people interested and keep them fresh.
And keep your setting team going as well,
keeping them learning and trying new things as well.
Are you setting personally within your gym
or are you more of just an overseer
of what it should look like?
Yeah, I'm on the team as well and guiding the team along.
We set twice a week.
There might be days where I don't set,
but I'm still in there helping them test or guiding them
with what needs to go up or stuff like that.
And then a couple of last questions
from Anita, who is one of the people I just
had on previously, like an RP3 Paraclimber.
I think you know her, right?
Yeah.
OK.
Yeah, she was wondering, do you have anything
to do with the isolation setting at all, I guess,
at the World Champs or the World Cups?
And basically, it would be great to have
a rope added to the future competitions
like they had in Bern if you set for future World Cups.
Yeah, I know that's always been on and off kind of issue.
It just totally depends what the venue has.
And we generally have to just build the wall
with whatever holds we have left.
And there's always a discussion about getting a top rope up
so that the Paraclimbers can warm up.
And we always try and do the best that we can
and chat with the organizers and the IFSC.
And it's their call to see what happens.
So like in isolation, the holds that are put up,
I guess, on a warm up wall are just
like whatever is left over from setting the comp?
Yeah, yeah.
Or if it's a gym, then there might be holds
that we can use from the gym to put up.
And generally, it's like if it's like a World Cup that's
like at an outside venue, then it's
just going to be like a straight slightly overhanging wall
that a lot of people have to try and get on to warm up.
So it's a hard process.
Yeah.
Yeah, you generally want to take your own kind
of jingle board or something to warm up on as well.
Yeah, because I didn't even think about it
until last time when it was mentioned
that at a typical isolation, there's only like a few,
like six people or eight people.
But then at Paraclimbing, it's like tens of, yeah,
a lot of people trying to warm up at once.
Yes, a couple hundred people trying to warm up.
And the timetable is staggered, so there's not
so many people at once.
But it's still hard work trying to warm up.
Yeah, definitely.
And then another question she had
was something you had mentioned earlier
about qualifications and finals happening in one day
at the IFSC World Cups.
I guess, could you first of all explain the current process
and then what it's changing to, and then the pros and cons
of setting in one day versus the other?
Yeah, I haven't generally been too much involved with that.
The IFSC has a committee that they discuss all this with,
so it's not really up to the root setter, of course.
But yeah, the process before was all qualifications in one day
and then finals, so now it's been split.
So there'll be some classes on one day
and then the next classes on another day.
Generally, hopefully, it's good for the setting,
so it means that we can be tweaking those routes overnight.
It means we'll be working at night,
but most of the time we are, that we
can switch up some of the routes and make them
a little bit fairer for the classes.
And we have four or five days to set these in advance,
so we know what we want to do overnight,
so it's not like we're trying to think of it that night.
I think generally it might be a good thing.
It would be good to see it in action and give it a go
and then go from there, how it's going to look.
Is that starting out at the first Para World Cup
of this year?
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure.
I don't know the timetable or anything yet,
but I would say that's the new rule.
Are you scheduled to set for any of those this year?
We haven't been given the schedule yet.
Oh, right.
Yeah.
No setups have been selected for any events.
It's coming up soon.
I know, yeah.
I'm a bit like, oh, I kind of want to know where I'm going
and plan the year.
But I guess there's a lot of people
and there's a lot of events, so trying to organize all that
would be a pretty big job.
That'd be pretty stressful, though.
It's coming up pretty fast.
The Paraclimbing, we've got a few months.
I think it's May.
So yeah, it's the first one.
First one's in Salt Lake.
So yeah, the Salt Lake one's always a fun event.
I've done that one once, and it was really fun.
Yeah, I hope you get selected.
That'll be a lot of fun.
Yeah, yeah, it'll be fun.
And I might be at Salt Lake, so.
Oh, cool.
I mean, it's a lot closer for me,
but I'm hoping to make it out to a few World Cups this year.
The Salt Lake one's really good because it's
bolder in speed and the power of it as well, so you
get to see a lot.
Yeah, it's a big one.
OK.
I think that's all of the questions I had.
Thank you for joining me.
Once again, thanks.
Yeah, anything else that you want to get out there,
shout out?
No, I don't think so.
I think we covered a lot of stuff,
and it was good to have a chat about.
Well, it was nice chatting.
And do you want to let people know where they can find you
or contact you if they have anything else?
Yeah, I'm on Instagram, Carly Climes.
You can send me a message, ask away.
Happy to have a chat anytime.
Awesome.
I'll leave the links in the description.
But yeah, thanks again.
It was amazing to have this talk.
Yeah, no, thank you.
It was fun.
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast.
Don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed.
Otherwise, you are a super fake climber.
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Thanks again for listening.