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Hello and welcome to the first episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm your host,

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Jinni, and I'm really excited to introduce my guest for today, Nicholas Wiechmann. He's been

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route setting for over 20 years at commercial gyms and competitions, and he's one of the first

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to integrate tricky parkour style moves into climbing. In this episode, we'll get into what

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it's like setting for World Cup level climbers, how the IFSC chooses holds and setters,

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different competition formats, and how to improve the future of competition climbing.

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So whether you think parkour style movement is real climbing or not, hear him out for what he

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has to say and let us know in the comments how you feel about it. Hope you enjoy this conversation

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with Niki. Awesome. Well, yeah, thank you for joining me. How are you doing today?

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Good. I just came from having a climb at friend's gym and it's good. Weather's lovely. I'm good.

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Where are you right now? I'm in Marburg, which is like to the

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north of Frankfurt in the middle of Germany, straight in the middle of Germany. And yeah,

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my mother's living here in a rural village. There's like 200 people living here in the middle of

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nowhere, fields and a dog and sheep and cows and everything. So it's quite lovely. How's the

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climbing gym there if it's so rural? So the city, like where the climbing gym is in like,

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it's like 20 minutes by car. And it's like the city has like 70,000 citizens and inhabitants.

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And the gym is quite small, like 400 square meters inside and outside wall, maybe 100 square

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meters or a little bit more. And it's super good. It's like really like one of the best like

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distinctive setting. I know it's like friends from Berlin who moved down here. And the head setter

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Lucas has a really good style and character and setting. I love it. And it's like a nice little

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community and just building up since last year when they opened. Oh, okay. Cool. Well, yeah,

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I think that kind of brings us right into it. Since you are a setter and you have a lot of

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strong opinions about setting, I believe, probably. So just starting out, how did you get into

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climbing and specifically route setting? So my father is one of the early sport climbing

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generations. Like he started climbing in the 70s, which was still like with like technical

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eight climbing and then like his generation and friends of his like they developed like this

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red point and all these like new ethics. And so he's been climbing for a long time. And he opened

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one of Germany's first commercial climbing gyms in 1999, which is still running and my hometown,

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Kassel. And they started a ballering competition. I think back then in Germany, there were like three

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bouldering competitions. And I think they started the third one. And they had an annual competition

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every first weekend of November. And as a kid, I think, yeah, so it was 1999. So I was 11. Since I

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was 12, I always like had to help like stripping the walls beforehand. And at some point, I was

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allowed to stay on Monday and skip school and reset the whole gym or help like the setters.

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And so I started setting up some point and started helping with the competition setting there and

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setting commercially. I was 14, 15, something like this. And I did it more and more. And at some

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point, I got invited to set like local regional comps for the regional like state federation.

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And I got more and more invitations to other gyms and traveled around from gym to gym setting

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commercially and comps. And then it didn't make sense for me to go to university like I tried to

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go to university. But I was a little bit lost because there was too many people. I didn't know

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what I wanted to do with it. And at the same time, I earned money with being a freelance root setter.

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And I never stopped. So you sort of grew up in the community. Yeah, pretty privileged like there

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was always climbing around me. And I wasn't pushed into anything. And I stopped climbing a few times

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as well because I kind of hated it always being surrounded by climbers. I've never seen a hotel

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from the inside until I was 18 and could afford it on my own. Always like dirtbag like camping,

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sleeping in cabins, like always going on climbing holidays. And like it may sound like a dream,

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but if you're forced to do it, it was like and because my father like he developed

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areas and did a lot of first ascents and it was a kind of like, yeah, well known in the northern

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Germany part. It was always like, not like having my parents to climb. There was always like people

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around my parents and like, what about this route? What about this area? So I didn't enjoy it at all

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as a kid. But it was quite cool that my parents never really pushed me when I was older either.

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They were like, if you want to climb competitions, yeah, there's a train ticket. That's how the train

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tickets work. You go there by yourself or like just organize it with some of your friends. I'm

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not interested to drive you to take part in any climbing competitions, which I think was a pretty

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healthy habit. Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. I've always kind of wondered what it's like for people

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who grew up surrounded by that. If it sort of, I guess, changes how they interact with the sport.

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I think a lot of people who discover it later in life kind of just love it immediately and they're

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all in and they, I don't know, kind of develop a different relationship with it.

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Totally, totally. I always ask myself like, if I would have started climbing later, if I would have

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continued or liked it at all, what I knew from early on and what my mother also always told me,

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because she met a lot of these famous people and they're all pretty normal people up to sociopaths.

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If you want to do something on an elitist performance level, they are like, yeah,

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so yeah, social-wise, not the best people to be around with. A lot of them are not decent

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human beings or have something that's not that cool. That's still the case in competition climbing.

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That's what I liked about it. I always knew that all these people who are climbing at a

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blah, blah, blah limit, they're just human beings and a lot of them are like proper assholes.

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Okay. Exciting. I won't ask you who specifically is an asshole, but maybe one day I'll find out.

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Maybe you can tell me offline. You said that occasionally you hated climbing and you took these

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breaks. I guess what changed for you eventually that made you love it again?

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I found the cool thing about climbing is that you can do whatever you want. A lot of people think

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you have to do this, you have to do this, and climbing works like this. But climbing, equal

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slash route setting, it's a pretty young sport, so you can do whatever you want. If you just want to

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do slab climbing, you just go slab climbing. If you don't like pockets, don't climb on pockets.

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If you just like top roping, for example, I had a nasty fall when I was 15 and I was pretty badly

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traumatized, but no one actually helped me to deal with the trauma. But from the age of 15 to,

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I don't know, 21, I just top roped. I'm pretty good at top roping, the steepest stuff ever.

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I found paths in climbing which I like, and especially route setting. The performance

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climbing wasn't something for me. I cannot deal with the pressure. I hate walking around three

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days through the forest because I have to save my skin just for a really good goal. What do you

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gain from climbing at your limit? You know that you can do it. Maybe there's a next limit, but you

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become pretty alone, pretty focused on just one stupid thing, climbing up a rock or plastic stuff.

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Sometimes I'm jealous of people who can do this, but there's so much more in climbing,

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so much more movement, and so much more stuff you can discover if you just take the pressure off

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and just enjoy moving. The way you move, what you can do, there are so many endless possibilities.

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So I think finding out that I can be in climbing the way I want to and that I can climb just the

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stuff to have fun is sometimes weird to other people, but it was definitely healthy for me.

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No, it's great to just have fun in climbing. I think a lot of people wish they could just do

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that. I know you have your nickname, Tricky Nicky. What was your journey into getting that nickname?

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Difficult to say. My vision was always to offer bouldering and climbing routes. I stopped

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saying routes a while ago, like over 10 years ago. Just focus on bouldering because it's more social

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and you can spend more time with it. My goal was always not to push people or to encourage people

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to get stronger. A lot of times it was like, okay, I cannot do this boulder problem. What do I need

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to do to solve this move? I need to get stronger, fitter, in a better physical shape. Because most

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of our customers are recreational weekend warriors, whatever you might call them, and just people who

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want to have fun and who don't want to train on a physical side. My goal was always to be able to

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create easy to difficult problems, up to difficult problems, which are just tricky. So you need to

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solve more your positioning. You need to work out how something works. Just change your body position

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slightly or use momentum. People were forced to engage themselves with the boulder problem and

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maybe get in social interaction with other people. To create tricky problems instead of

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only physical problems. A lot of people think I'm not setting physical stuff at all, which isn't

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true. But this is just Pandora's box once you open it. It came together with a little bit of

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the parkour movement. For me it was always mixing a lot of different styles. When I went to the

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Peak District, I think it was 2014 or 2015, there were a lot of bouldering problems opened up by

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Johnny Dawes. While I don't have any climbing heroes, Johnny Dawes is pretty cool. Because he

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did a lot of like, you hop from this little boulder onto this little stone, then you jump to this

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sloper on the crack. This was kind of like an established boulder problem. Why shouldn't you

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jump around or run around over volumes and holes? Because it's a use your momentum. And a lot of

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people were like back then, oh, that's not climbing. But whatever, you can do whatever you want as long

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as it's climbing holes. You can put all that stuff on the wall, like buckets, dog, all that stuff,

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and just create movement riddles or situations for people to enjoy. That's more or less how I got to

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this nickname. Thanks for mentioning the name of the podcast. Johnny Dawes, was it? Is that

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a setter that you feel like you were inspired by then? No, Johnny Dawes is an outdoor climber from

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the Peak District from Great Britain. He was the first one. He was the first one, I think,

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who climbed E8 and E9. He had a really beautiful dancing climbing style. So everyone who is into

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climbing movies, there's actually just, in my opinion, one climbing movie you should watch,

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which is called Stone Monkeys. And this is the only thing you ever need to see about climbing.

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It's mid-end 80s England, and it's great. It shows a little bit about lifestyle and climbing culture

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back then. Gotcha. Okay, I'll put that in the show notes. You can tell I'm not really familiar with

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outdoor climbing. I never liked that much. That's all right. That's cool. That's actually what I

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liked here. When I read a little bit about what you posted, it was like, yeah, there should be

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people who are proud of not being into outdoor climbing, because why not? And I guess, what was

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it for you? Did you have many discussions with other people about that? No, I mean, people hate

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me for not liking outdoor climbing. But I think for me, I never really liked it because I actually

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don't like being outside. I'm just like an indoor person. There's just too many elements outside,

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whether it's too hot, too cold, too wet, whatever. And I do like the tricky parkour style movement

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more. I think it is a lot of fun to play around on. So yeah, I've definitely more preferred the

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competition route. I try to call myself a competition climber so that people have some respect for me

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instead of just being an indoor plastic climber. But that's kind of odd, right? That people are

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kind of gatekeeping, are arrogant, are like, this is not real climbing, what you're doing. I had to

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deal with this a little bit. And I think you should be pretty proud of yourself being like, yeah,

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like I admire it being like, yeah, outdoors, nothing for me, weather, whatever. And indoors

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is a good place. Like there are good places in Norway where you can have fun and socialize.

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Yeah, yeah, I'm a lot happier this way. So like, what is your response, especially as a route setter,

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route setters get a lot of hate online for the new setting. People are always saying that in like

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YouTube comments for competitions, they're always saying that it's not real climbing and maybe it's

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like too height dependent, too new school, too many like dangerous moves. What's your response to

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that? I mean, hot takes. I think there are always two sides to it, or not two aspects, two things

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about it. On the one hand, like people who sign up for a competition, they sign up to climb like

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that stuff. So they don't ever know like what's coming. And for route setters, it's always a

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little bit nicer or a little bit easier with coordination dependent stuff to create a ranking

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and split a field. Because like judging and guessing, estimating like how strong people,

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climbers are physically is super, super difficult. But if you set something

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really like wobbly and uncomfortable and something where you need to commit, it's just a little bit

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easier to guess that a lot of climbers might need more attempts. When it comes to all these like

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short calling, like this is not real climbing, like who's to say what is real climbing? I'm like

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really sick of people being like so adamant and so arrogant about like, this is not really climbing

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anymore. Yes, this is not outdoor climbing because it's indoor. It's like totally different spots.

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And a lot of people don't get it. It's nowadays like two different spots in my opinion. That's

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called climbing. That's two entirely different disciplines. You don't go indoors nowadays,

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mainly to be fit for outside outdoors. You can do this. But a lot of gyms just offer and cater to

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many different people and target groups and want to cater to different needs. So I don't know whether

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it's still an unpopular opinion, but people can fight me online, offline. I'm always there to fight

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and discuss about the realness of climbing because this is like pretty arrogant and gatekeeping wise

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to tell people this is not real climbing. Comp climbing in IFSC comps has this style nowadays.

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There are other competitions which go to a different direction. And yeah, was it an answer? I don't

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really know. Yeah, I think that covers it. I'll leave your info below if anyone wants to fight you

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on it. And maybe you'll get some good messages about that. Yeah, so you say that setting wobbly

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stuff, stuff that might be low percentage works well for competitions with high level athletes.

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At some point, they must have practiced all those moves so many times that it's not surprising for

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them anymore. I mean, is that the case? Or is there always some way to make it something new they

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haven't dealt with before? You might think so, right? Like, yeah, yeah, it's a good question.

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Like, I never thought about it like this way, because once you're in it, no, it doesn't seem

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like that. They always try to prepare by like every single move, like even if it's just in

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reiteration. So maybe let's start from the start. In climbing, there's essentially just two things

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you can do, in my opinion, pushing and pulling. And you have the three dimensions, like horizontal,

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vertical, and the depth of a wall, or like things hold volumes attached to a wall. And even though

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it's basically like push and pull into different directions, it's always a new reiteration of a

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move, like a slight like a mutation, a permutation of a palm push over and of a jump and whatsoever.

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And you should never like, I think you always have to account for the comp environment,

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being nervous, sometimes seeing or knowing or not knowing the boulder problems, their own weakness,

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the order of a round. If you start with a slap, creates an entirely different feeling than when

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a round finishes with a slap, for example. So there are a lot of mind games. And I think what

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we did a lot of times, like that was 2013 and 14 with the German team, for example, we set training

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camps where our goal was to put them into uncomfortable positions, just like mentally wise.

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So they learn to deal how to behave in a, or like decision making in a situation where they don't

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know what to do about it. And I think I forgot the question again. I don't think we will see

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like so much new anymore, but at the same time, all the moves in a competition are always like

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new mixes of already existing like moves in theory, but like the comp environment always

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changes everything up. So they cannot climb the same move again, which they already trained in

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in training. Yeah, I was just thinking that because after watching a few World Cups, you start to

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notice that a lot of the climbers moves that seem like they would have been uncomfortable at one

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point, they just kind of breeze through it since they've done that same exact kind of move so many

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times before. Good climbers, right? Or good competitors. And what I'm always more amazed of,

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or amazed by, amazed of like, what amazes me is like, sorry, I'm not a native. Anyway, it's like

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that a lot of climbers are not really improving on slab climbing, for example. And slab climbing is

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pretty easy to train. It's just like, do it again, do it again, do it again, push your heel down,

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trust, trust, trust, commit, trust. It's nothing, not that much physical in general, like other

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problems. So you can always try it, try it, try it. And especially if you're tired, when you're in a

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good headspace, when you're in a bad headspace, always go to the slab and do some exercises. And

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that's what amazes me more, because a lot of physical climbers apparently don't want to spend

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time dealing with the weaknesses, in my opinion. And that's...

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Yeah, that trust is hard.

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But when you say, for example, that a lot of climbing competitions, because that would be a

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question for me, why other people watch climbing competition, like I'm... Yeah, I'm not over it,

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but I'm really bored of the COM format and the IFSC COM format nowadays. And that like, what makes

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it like interesting for you, if you say like, the moves are repetitive, like, what's so exciting

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to watch it then? Well, I don't... I think for me, I don't find the moves repetitive, like I still

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love seeing them. And I think they're still interesting to see. I just wonder for the

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competitors if they're repetitive. Actually, this year, I feel it's a bit... it's been a bit

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repetitive with all the Lachey moves, like the swing and jump onto something. But I still like

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seeing it. I mean, some people are a lot flowier than others, and it's interesting to see the

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difference. Man, now you've got me questioning why I like watching them. It's still fairly new to me.

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I think that's probably part of it.

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Yeah, it amazes me always, like, what do people want to see in climbing competitions? Because

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when I think about good competitions, or just like good sports for me, and I'm watching like a lot of

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sports, I'm watching tennis, cycling, footy, soccer for all the Americans out there, not like football.

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Yeah, like Olympic games, track and field, like I just enjoy a lot of. And I think it's

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just enjoy a lot of sports, but a lot of sports have a rivalry, or you have like a home court

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advantage, or like something changes. But IFSC comes, whether it's in Seoul or

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Vail or Germany, the wall is slightly different, but the holes are also always like different,

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but different. Then they're like the team is different, same, same, but different.

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So it's not that USA, IFSC World Cup feels entirely different to the World Cup or the

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World Championship in Bern. That's something you just see different moves, because like the

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setters create something new, and there's like a different weight on the whole event. Because

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sometimes the World Championship is not really important to become a World Champion, because

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everyone will forget who's becoming the World Champion this July and August, because it's

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just about like getting to the Olympic Games. So everyone will forget that. And I'm like,

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yeah, I'm curious. Yeah, I'm just curious in general, what people,

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do they have like favorite climbers, or like favorite vaults? Like is it like, oh, the

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Salt Lake World Cup is always the best World Cup? I don't know.

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I mean, do you not feel like there's like any rivalry going on in climbing World Cups? No,

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you can never say like Adam versus Jakob, because it's never, in my opinion, not there.

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There hasn't been like any rivalry in climbing like this, where like two people are at the peak

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and always fighting, maybe in the early 90s, like Le Grand versus the other French guys.

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But it's so much depends always on the route setting. While it's like so volatile, the right

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word, like it's a little bit like gambling. Like it's never like, sure, you know.

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I love gambling though.

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Gamble yourself, gambling yourself because it's addicting, like you bet on something. But there

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are no betting systems on climbing. That would be great, right? I'd love to bet on climbing.

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My god.

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Okay, so I'm curious, what do you think about climbing?

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Okay, yeah. Oh yeah, maybe we should start that. Yeah, something addictive like that.

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That'd be great for the community.

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But the density is so high, like in the semi-finals, like first to get into the semi-finals

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and then the semi-finals itself, to get into the finals. It's like never like this,

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the six same competitors, or like four competitors making it into the finals. It's like

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really, really difficult to retell and rewrite a story. Like which climber just had an unlucky

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slip two weeks ago in the finals and maybe now they are really close. It's like really

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similar boulder problem two weeks ago. And now it's just about not slipping again, you know,

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like this learning curve, same situation. I cannot think of anything like, and I don't know since when

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you watch bouldering or climbing competitions, but please tell me the most impressive climbing

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moment you ever had in a competition. That's hard to think of. There's just,

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maybe it's like the amount, there's just so many moments that felt amazing in the moment,

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but maybe I just don't think hard enough about it.

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I'll have to think about that.

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That's something what I'm thinking about a lot because like in other sports, they're like games,

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there are moments where like a competition also turned, like you don't, and in computer gaming,

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you call it like a comeback mechanic. Like if you're down like after two boulders, for example,

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you get in computer games, like there's always like, for example, for all the, most of people

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played Mario Kart, I guess like on Nintendo. And if you're like in the last position, you get this

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blue shell, which always hits like the further you're back, the better your items are. So you can

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maybe make it back to the front and get back into the game. But like climbing like this, okay,

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we got like two people leading after the first two boulders, but that those two people are not

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able to climb boulder three and four and fall completely back while someone from the back goes

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to the front. Almost never happens. It's a little bit like maybe some twists at the front.

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But it's like I'm missing the spice a little bit. And this could be because I'm like

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watching it like for decades now, but yeah, I'm always, yeah, always looking like for something

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else a little bit.

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The one I can think of that happened most recently, which is probably why I can think of

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it is I already forget where this took place, but it was like Toby Roberts on like men's foreign

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finals. I think that was the most most recent one.

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Yeah, that was in Brixen. Yeah, a few weeks ago.

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Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. You were there for it. Yeah. That was a good moment, right?

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Yeah, that was a good moment. And we had to, it's another thing like the whole crew created this

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moment this year and last year, same crew created a similar moment in the male final when I think

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Yannick Flohe topped something. So it was also pretty hard and like in the last seconds or last

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attempt. But it's really difficult to create a final like this, which is unforgettable.

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And yeah.

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Well, I mean, if every moment is unforgettable, then everything becomes forgettable, doesn't it?

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Okay, you beat me there.

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I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Well, okay. Anyway, we got derailed. Let's move on to like the World

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Cup stuff since we're sort of on that. And I know you're not like a like an official IFSC

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setter. But yeah, I saw your video on setting a qualifier boulder at the World Cup in Brixen

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2022. And yeah, this was covered a bit in the Q&A video that was on your channel that I'll

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link in the show notes, people can check it out. But to give people some background here,

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just because I think a lot of people don't really know how anything in the IFSC works,

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there's not much information out there about it. How do setters get chosen for the World

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Cup? I think you said that there are only six. And is there a group of setters that does every

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single World Cup?

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So like for a specific World Cup now? Or how do you become an IFSC setter? Or how do you?

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Yeah, like in general, how like, I guess, how do they choose who gets to set for the competition?

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Okay, let's do it this way. Like there's a pool of licensed IFSC setters. And

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this how you become how you become an IFSC setter, how you get a license is not a clear process.

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And people should be aware of, I think, I don't know what happens now with me, whether the IFSC

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listens to this, but they should be aware of that the IFSC is a sport union like the IOC,

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like the FIFA. So it's pretty, it's a circle joke. So it's not an open thingy and not like really

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like, how do you like not trans visible, like the process is how to get where and how to get to

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something. It's not pretty obvious. And I think it's a very, very, very, very, very, very, very

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obvious. And like, how do you know, how do you get to something? It's not pretty obvious. And

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there's a lot of like, who do you know? And yeah, so it's not a fair process, in my opinion,

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to become an IFSC setter. For each Boulder World Cup and Lead World Cup, though, there is one IFSC

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chief out of these IFSC setters. Some have a chiefing license, some do not. And the chief

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is, how do those three get appointed? That's a really good question. Even some IFSC setters

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cannot answer. Some IFSC setters last year, for example, told me, okay, they got a Google sheet

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with a lot of competitions, and they could apply like for three or whatsoever. And they had to do

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this in the next 48 hours. And other people said they don't know. Maybe there's a better

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process progress nowadays, how to pick and where they want to set for. Sometimes the IFSC, for

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example, last year in Brixen, we had one of the IFSC setters who was setting in Brixen. And then

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the week afterwards was the Lead World Cup and Boulder World Cup in Innsbruck. And he was

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written or like appointed officially for both of these World Cups, like in the event sheet,

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he was on both of these World Cups. And on Sunday, no, on Monday after the finals,

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a friend of mine took me from Brixen to Innsbruck, and we took him with us. And we were like,

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yeah, when do we start setting here? And he's like, wait, what? I'm not setting Innsbruck.

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So the process is a little bit like, yeah, out there. But as mentioned before, each World

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Cup has three appointed IFSC setters. This year and last year already, some of the IFSC World Cups

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have a fourth IFSC setter, which is not an official IFSC license setter, but a setter coming

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through the diversity program. The IFSC apparently has a diversity program where people

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of not that developed countries and underrepresented groups get chosen to attend other

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World Cups and European Cups to get more experience. And hopefully with this experience,

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improve their home federation and organization. This is no path to become an

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licensed IFSC setter though. So a lot of these people from the diversity program,

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they don't know what happens. Some people get chosen to continue, some not. It's also not a

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pretty understandable process, but setter number four this year in Brixen was Anna, and she came

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through the diversity program. And then the home nation, the hometown federation, home country

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federation can appoint up to three setters. So in Brixen, for example, three Italian setters.

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I also know that some federations like the USA, for example, they invited some French guys,

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or a French guy, at some point, even though this French guy, for example, didn't have an IFSC

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license. So to get appointed by the hometown home federation, you don't even need to have an IFSC

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license. Well, at the same time, in my opinion, IFSC license is not a quality passport license

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whatsoever. I know some IFSC setters, well, I'm like, yeah, okay, maybe not. Well, I was like,

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I like highly qualified and educated and experienced. Yeah. So it's very interesting

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to see. So it's very, it's a very unofficial and, I guess, kind of networking process? Like,

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yeah, there's a lot of networking, maybe the process is a little bit more obvious or official

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nowadays in 2023 to get to the World Cups. But like to get, for example, also like appointed by

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a national federation to be there at the World Cup is a lot of work, a lot of like politics.

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And I know, for example, some IFSC setters sometimes take some of their prodigies, like some of their

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friends or like pupils or scholars with apprentices to some of the World Cups to give them more

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experience, which is nice, but it's not an obvious, like, open process to learn for everyone.

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So how did you network your way into setting one of the qualifier folders?

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Yeah, that's a really good question. So I have a gym, I used to have another gym, and at some point,

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I started video formats like Boulder of the Week, just to showcase that climbing is cool,

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and that route setting is also cool. And I did different formats, and just to show ballering

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and route setting more and more. The IFSC coverage of the streams was never something I'm really into.

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And watching it for two hours, and then just boom, cut, fade to black, that's it. And there used to

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be like competitions where there was like an appeal, for example, because someone stepped on

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a ball or whatsoever. I think I remember something, Adam Ondra stepped onto a ball, I think there was

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like a World Championships, a really important thing to get to the world, to get through the

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Olympic Games, then the stream cut to black, no one knew the results. And then I think he had to

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start again at the other world qualifier event at Toulouse. Was it Adam Ondra? But something like

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this. So the after show, the after event coverage just sucks. Yeah, let's put it like this, it sucks.

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Like there's a World Cup, stream, boom, and, but you don't have an expert, you don't have any

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athletes, you don't have like a feedback, like any like review. So I started these World Cup

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reports. That's like what the most people honestly watch on my YouTube channel. So I'm taking

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the stream and analyze like why climb by A climbed something while climb by B failed,

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because I think this was missing in our sports. And at some point, I started working on top of it

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on top of it for climbing holes. Brand climb holes.com they have six brands in our portfolio.

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And some of those brands are IFC brands. And I'm working for this brand to showcase like how our

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holes work, what you can do with it. And at some point, like some of our distributors, for example,

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in Brixton, high five, or is that Italian distributor, they are the sole whole sponsor for

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the World Cup. So if people don't know, like the IFC doesn't own any hold, they don't own

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any climbing wall, they go to a city to a federation and the federation's all that's

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for this way, the federation applies to be able to host a World Cup, then the federation

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gives a venue whatsoever. And the venue has to host the World Cup. And they have to bring

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only IFC licensed hold brands and companies. And these gyms usually don't have enough budget for

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this or like the hold storage and space is not enough to set a World Cup. And the budget is

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around 100,000 euros for a bouldering World Cup. Of course, it depends on the hold sponsor. But in

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Brixton, for example, the material to be able to set these 36 boulder problems, yeah, 36 boulder

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problems was material worth of 100,000 euros. And how do I get there? Like I essentially

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approached some, I think in 2019, I just went to ARCO to the Youth World Champs because I was

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because I wanted to talk to the IFC, but I can do my reports like with together with them.

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And then I just filmed the setters and a little at night when they had their resetting sessions.

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And I filmed interviews with the setters and with Jackie and other people. And then I showed like

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tweaking, resetting how the comp turned out. And people liked it. So I found a new format. And for

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competitions, which we sponsor, I can go or sometimes I go StudioBloc, for example, this year

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and then 2020. And Brixton last year, Brixton this year, there will be like five YouTube episodes

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about like five different boulders and the five different setters of Brixton, how they set their boulder

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and how the boulder turned out. And in September, I will go to Koper in Slovenia and try to do the same

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for a lead climbing World Cup. And because I'm a setter, I'm hanging around like the whole week

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with the setting team. And a lot of them know me and I don't try to get into their way. But

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yeah, I'm a setter. So sometimes it's still like really like, ah, yeah, I want to do something as

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well. And if like, if there's some possibility, then I hop onto the drill as well. And that's how

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I got to Brixton. Okay, exciting. Yeah, I wanted to go back to when you were talking about the holds

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a bit. So you said the like this one company supplies all the holds that they use in the World

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Cup? Only at the Brixton World Cup. Yes. So the whole distributor, so a whole distributor is someone

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who just sells your holds. And usually like whole distributors only work in one country.

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Sometimes they work like in Italy, in Austria, or like being in Lux, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg,

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which is like the same area. But a whole distributor usually has like a contract with,

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I don't know, like different amount of, for example, six brands, and then they sell only

378
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:27,680
these six brands to customers and to gyms. And in this case, like the whole distributor needs to have

379
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:37,520
IFSC licensed brands, which are eligible, like allowed to be set with in the competitions.

380
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:45,040
Are they ever gonna, I guess, use like those super niche kind of holds that are coming out,

381
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:51,360
like the like the spinning ones, stuff like that? I think the spinny ones, I think there's like 360,

382
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:57,120
I think what you're talking about 360, they have a wheel, like a wheel. Yeah. My pronunciation is

383
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:05,280
wrong. Doesn't matter. And they are a licensed IFSC brand. I think you always have to pick,

384
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:12,000
you have to apply for all the holds. Or like you have to pick like certain holds of your portfolio.

385
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:17,360
And the spinning thing, I think it's a safety risk. So we will never see it. They used to be,

386
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:25,200
they used to be, ah, when was that? I can remember, I think 2011 or 2012, we had at one of the German

387
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:36,800
cups, we had like a free hanging volume on ropes. And they, it's just safety issues. And yeah, so

388
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:42,640
they got rid of it. It's also like, it's safety issues and more difficult to judge. So they got

389
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:51,920
rid of it. And I don't think they will ever get it back onto the IFSC stage. Yeah, that reminds me

390
00:42:51,920 --> 00:43:00,560
of one of the questions from the discord. Is there any IFSC setting rule that you wish didn't exist,

391
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:08,240
or that prevents you from setting something that you would want to set? There used to be, I think

392
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:14,240
it was also around 2012, 2013, there used to be more running starts. So what we see nowadays is

393
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:21,600
like the starting position has four tapes. So it's like always like four points, four limbs to those

394
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:28,640
parts. While for example, back then, it used to also be possible to, it was possible to have like

395
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:35,920
two tapes and a square or a huge rectangle to tape off a surface. So you could, for example, run onto

396
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:42,480
a volume, so two feet on the volume, and your hands just touching the wall. And you just touch this

397
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:51,600
space. And there used to be more like running jumps like from the floor. And I think there was like

398
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:57,600
also four tapes, but different kind of taping. So you were allowed to use the volumes before the tapes,

399
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:03,840
stuff like this. Yeah, I kind of miss this a little bit, because like action straight from the ground.

400
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:12,160
But otherwise, yeah, no, no, not that much. Yeah, I wish we could do more stuff with fire, but like,

401
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:17,440
yeah, I don't know. Jump through the burning ring of fire, like I'm still trying to find like the gym,

402
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:24,240
which allows me to do this. Yeah, I think it would be pretty cool. Yeah, maybe, maybe bring that up.

403
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:31,920
And we'll see if anyone is willing to do that. It'd be great to see. Okay, back to more of a

404
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:37,280
basic question. I'm not sure if this is something, this is probably something routes that is good a

405
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:44,080
lot, but I think a lot of people aren't aware. When you're setting for climbers who climb the

406
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:52,560
hardest, like at a World Cup level, what's the for running process like for boulders that are,

407
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,520
or I mean, boulders, routes, whatever that are harder than you can do yourself?

408
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:04,320
And yeah, you were also like sick at Brickson last year. So I'm sure that makes it much worse.

409
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,880
Yeah. So in general, it's always a team effort. So they put like,

410
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,640
yeah, I don't want to make any advertisement, but I'm doing it now. So if you actually want to see

411
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,960
it, like get really, really deep into it, like how they set a boulder, check out my channel,

412
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,760
because it's like, you can see it for one hour, how they just set one hour.

413
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:28,720
But in general, it's a team effort. So the whole round has like different styles and

414
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:34,720
characteristic curves. And the team sits together, or the chief says, okay, this is physical,

415
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:41,520
this is technical, this is coordination, this is freestyle. And then you either pick something you

416
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:50,400
feel good with, or you get something pointed to set something. And then you set it and then you

417
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:56,880
set it. And in general, at the World Cup so far, I've been to every single move has been done,

418
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:07,040
but they never climb or almost never climb a boulder problem from the bottom to the top in one

419
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:14,880
go. They have so much experience. And it's also experience guessing, like how much like the second

420
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:20,400
part, how difficult it is in combination with the first part, which you tested in the morning and

421
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:27,040
tweaked slightly afterwards. And then you just go on and test the upper part. And how you in

422
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:33,040
general do this, it's a lot of experience watching stronger climbers. And at some point, some of the

423
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:40,400
team step back, don't test everything anymore. Maybe they test the next day. And it always comes

424
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,160
down, sometimes like to two really strong people, but the rest of the team watching, analyzing,

425
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:52,320
helping those testers and setters all together, like thinking about solutions.

426
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:59,360
So it's sort of like, as long as you guys can do each move in isolation, it's okay, maybe.

427
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:06,320
Yeah, I haven't been to a World Cup where they say, okay, this move hasn't been done,

428
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:11,840
but I'm pretty sure that climbers can do it. But I myself have done it many times.

429
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,480
I love a little bit of a gamble, but like not on a World Cup stage.

430
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:23,200
Yeah. And so do you sort of study the pro climbers to know what kind of moves they're

431
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,200
comfortable with, what kind of moves they're not?

432
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:32,240
It depends on like what kind of setter you are. Let's put it this way. In a qualification round,

433
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:40,960
you see, I think, 90 bowlers in the male category or 100 men, and I think it was 60 women or 70,

434
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:47,520
something like this. So you already see them. And the setting team can always compare the

435
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:54,240
qualification round to the semi-final round to the final round, depending, talking about the

436
00:47:54,240 --> 00:48:01,840
difficulty. So sometimes on a qualification round, they set one of the best players in the

437
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,880
world. They set one bowler which they think has like the same difficulty as one of the semi-final

438
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:12,160
bowlers, just to be able to compare. And then some of the styles or some of the sections,

439
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:19,040
parts of the bowlers kind of like ask a question of the climber, how strong are you? How flexible

440
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:27,280
are you? How good are you at reading a sequence? How confident are you to jump out of an uncomfortable

441
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:34,800
position? And these can be answers for the root setters like in which shape or in which state of

442
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:40,800
mind climbers are. And then according to this performance on a qualification round, for example,

443
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:47,600
they can tweak the semi-final accordingly. And then the semi-final, it's only 20 more climbers.

444
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:53,360
It's pretty, pretty, pretty difficult. So they ask again the questions of physical technique,

445
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:58,240
how to read bowler problems, how to perform under pressure. And then for the finals,

446
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:04,800
after the semi-finals, the semi-finals get stripped, everyone goes out of the stadium or the

447
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:12,160
venue. And then if there's a curtain, like the setting team can start resetting the finals

448
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:19,040
earlier. If there's no curtain, then there's like an isolation time where all the finals have to be

449
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:26,320
in isolation and are not allowed to take a look at the wall anymore. So the setting team usually

450
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:33,440
has like a few hours to test and tweak the final climbs again if they want to. So they know, for

451
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,920
example, what happened on the semi-finals and in the qualification bowlers. And then they are like,

452
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:44,160
OK, Jongwon climbed this physical bowler really easy, and he's in the finals. So our physical

453
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:51,120
bowler in the finals has the brief that only one climber should reach the top. Then we make it a

454
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:55,920
little bit more difficult. This could be an example of how they go about the difficulties

455
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:02,800
and how they watch climbers. Sounds stressful. Yeah, it's super stressful. And it's connected

456
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:10,400
with a lot of emotions because it's not a science. Like I said, like it's educated or experienced

457
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:17,840
guessing. Like you never know how strong a climber really is. You never know what they can really do

458
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:24,320
and you never know really how the conditions are because like finals start, they start setting

459
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:31,360
finals on Sunday. Then they test and tweak until Monday noon. Then Monday afternoon, they start

460
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:38,880
setting semi-finals. Then Tuesday testing and tweaking semi-finals. Then Tuesday evening

461
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:43,440
stripping the semi-finals. Then on Wednesday, they start setting qualification group one,

462
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:51,600
or like one gender qualification group. Test, tweak, strip. On Thursday, they set the other

463
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:56,480
qualification group. While you have like a quiet, great time at the venue on Sunday, Monday, and

464
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:01,360
Tuesday, on Wednesday, there's already like people from the IFSC putting cameras onto the wall

465
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:07,760
and mounting stuff. Like the venue, like all the video screens go up and stuff like this. So like

466
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:13,600
there's a lot of pressure, a lot of people around you and every day like you deteriorate with skin

467
00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:21,200
and power all over the week. And yeah, so there are a lot of like factors coming together,

468
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:27,600
especially for an outdoor venue. Like sometimes it's sunny, humid, wind, it's changing all the time.

469
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:33,760
So yeah, a lot of pressure. Yeah, there's a lot of issues with outdoor venues. It's like the worst

470
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:42,320
of outdoor climbing, but put into indoor climbing as well. But anyway, yeah, that sort of leads into

471
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:48,800
another one of the discord questions. When there's a lot of differences in between styles of the

472
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:55,280
climbers, or for example, there's like one climber who's way stronger than everyone else, like if

473
00:51:55,280 --> 00:52:00,880
Yanya is going to be competing, or if a climber has practiced a certain move a thousand times,

474
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:07,680
how do you set to account for things like that? In general, there's a guideline, which is kind of

475
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:14,160
like too broad to, not to define, but on the other hand, it's really difficult to define it.

476
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:20,000
You try, or the setting team always tries to ask as many different questions of each climber as

477
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:28,480
possible. So they set a very diverse round all over each round, but they try to. And you gotta

478
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:36,800
imagine it's five boulders in qualification, four boulders in semifinals and four boulders in finals.

479
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:44,320
And each boulder is also split into two parts, like to the zone and after the zone to the top.

480
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:51,280
And in each boulder, if possible, you try to have like different styles sometimes, or sometimes you

481
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:56,400
mix dynamic to the zone and another kind of dynamic to the top. But like they try to create

482
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:03,200
a different mix already. This also heavily depends, of course, on the wall shapes. In Brixen,

483
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:10,560
for example, for the finals and semifinal walls, it's not allowed to use the side panels. So like

484
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:17,680
the whole frontal wall, every panel is overhanging. So it's pretty, pretty difficult to create

485
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:27,200
non-physical tricky slab, for example. So there are different demands, different goals, different

486
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:35,520
ways how to create a good mix. If you have someone in the finals who's always way better than the

487
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:43,200
others, Janja for example, then they try still to create like four boulders, which split the field

488
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:48,480
somehow. It's not like, okay, this boulder is only for Janja, because that would mean that the other

489
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:56,080
three boulders are only there to split the other three athletes. And what they did really well,

490
00:53:56,080 --> 00:54:03,120
for example, this year, there was one slab in Prague where Janja didn't win, or Janja won, I think.

491
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:08,800
Janja didn't climb. So maybe it's due to a foot injury.

492
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:15,600
Possibly, yeah. Yeah. But I don't think, for example, at Studio Bloc 2020, when Janja was competing,

493
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:21,600
it was not about like, okay, this boulder is only for Janja. We were always thinking that all the

494
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:28,160
boulders are possible for everyone, like for all the competitors. Yeah. But maybe for listeners, or

495
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:39,360
like for the listeners out there, like Janja and Natalia Grossman, they apparently, or like I heard

496
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:44,080
many stories that they are when it comes to some boulder problems, which are not length dependent,

497
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:48,640
that they are able to climb for the guys. So it would be really cool to have a competition at some

498
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:53,440
point, or we see them competing all in one category.

499
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:59,760
Yeah, so many people want to see that. That would be amazing. And that's sort of a rivalry, isn't it?

500
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,560
Janja and Natalia a little bit.

501
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:10,160
Could be. I don't know. I don't know how many times they really competed in the peak performance

502
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,680
against each other. But yeah, could be.

503
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:19,680
Yeah, they actually haven't. I think a lot of people were hoping for this year, since people

504
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:23,840
heard Janja was going to be coming back to bouldering competitions.

505
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,320
Maybe we will see something at the World Champs. Sorry to interrupt you.

506
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:35,120
Oh, no, no. Yeah, I think like, both of them have sort of had issues and they're not really competing

507
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:47,600
in their in their primes. So, but yeah, anyway, let's talk about the future of route safety.

508
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:58,400
The future of route setting. What, so there are kind of like trends in route setting in a way.

509
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:03,840
What do you think is like the current trend and what do you think is next?

510
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,920
Are we talking about competition setting now? More like route setting?

511
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:13,120
I was thinking competitions, but I don't know, is there a huge difference?

512
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,880
Yeah, I think there's a huge difference between competition and commercial setting.

513
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:24,320
People have to have to should be aware that in competition setting, it's a high pressure

514
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:31,440
environment, time limited wise and only constrained limited amount of holes to create a result.

515
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:36,320
So sometimes there's a lot of like gibbing, bricolage, a lot of like plastic gets screwed onto

516
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:42,560
plastic, which is never in a commercial environment, the best thing to do.

517
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:47,920
On a competition, there's only like a few amount, like a limited amount of people climbing on

518
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:52,400
something like this in a commercial environment. I would be like, if you really want to put this

519
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:59,360
plastic on this plastic on this plastic on this plastic, it's something I would consider.

520
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,680
I would think about a lot. Let's put this by so there is like a big difference

521
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,640
between competition and commercial setting because you can set like more dangerous,

522
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:15,200
more risky moves for people on higher performance scale.

523
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:20,000
And the future, maybe more of the slippery dual techs. I don't know.

524
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:26,480
Honestly, I don't think there's so much innovation anymore since the last six, seven years.

525
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,840
The dual techs was the last real innovation, but on the other hand, like there's just like

526
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:39,520
more directional, bigger holes. There's a lot of nonsense holes on the wall,

527
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:45,600
which take a lot of space. But now I think we need to see something,

528
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,800
some changes in the competition formats to make it a little bit more exciting, in my opinion.

529
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:56,080
Interesting. So no like movement trends that you can think of?

530
00:57:56,080 --> 00:58:04,400
No, it always seems like there's something new, but it's just like small reiterations,

531
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:12,560
in my opinion. So it's not. Now, some setters try to go more into this or that direction,

532
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:17,440
but then it heavily depends on the setters. And if someone said something, then a lot of this stuff

533
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:24,560
gets not copied, but like repeated in a different way. Like you mentioned, like the laches,

534
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:31,040
I call them a swingerling, where you like swing forth and back. It's an easy way to get like a

535
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:41,680
final round going to create like some action and also split a field. But I think there's not that

536
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:49,200
much more evolution in climbing moves itself happening, because the question is like you have

537
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:55,680
to set it. It takes a long time to set something super fancy, fancy. And then the climbers have to

538
00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:02,160
solve it in four respectively, like five minutes. They have to find the solution and then still like

539
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:06,880
execute it and do it. And then at the same time, you want to create a ranking with it,

540
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,640
that not only one climber can do it, but maybe two climbers in different attempts.

541
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,800
Yeah, yeah, I've been a little bit pivoting here, I think.

542
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:23,600
That's good. I think, yeah, it's hard to even imagine what other movement there would be out

543
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:31,600
there. I mean, I feel like everything has been tried or done. I think recently people have been

544
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:37,760
trying to set a lot of like 360 moves. But it's kind of hard to force that maybe.

545
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:44,240
Yeah, and it's like, it comes and goes in waves, I think like these 360 moves are like usually a

546
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:51,600
campus to a pocket, then turn 180, go to the next one and turn 180 again. Is this a 360? But

547
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:58,080
like we have this many, many times. And it's okay to have something like many, many times.

548
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:03,920
I love a good reiteration or repetition of a good move mixed with something else. But it comes and

549
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:10,640
goes in waves, I think. And a lot of people like set us when they see something, they try to

550
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:15,600
they try to recreate it to understand how the move works. And that's, that's cool. That's fair.

551
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:24,320
Yeah, I in terms of 360 moves, there's been a couple recently, where you're like pivoting

552
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:30,320
on a foot and trying to go around. But I think what happens is a lot of people, especially since

553
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:38,000
it's new, and they're not familiar with the time crunch, they try to just break it. But that's been

554
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:44,960
sort of exciting. Do you think people will get tired of these like trendy moves and people want

555
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:51,120
to move on to the next thing too fast? Or? I know that a lot of competitors get tired of it. A lot

556
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:59,120
of competitors ask for power, pure power problems, where they can show their strength. And a few,

557
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:06,880
a few competitors don't like the problem solving aspect that much, because it doesn't feel like

558
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:12,480
they can. I don't know, like, I don't want to speak for them. I just know that a few are complaining

559
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:20,560
that they are not enough power problems. But it's difficult, like I said, like, there are no rules,

560
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:25,520
what is the power problem? What is like this coordination problem? And the foot spinning move,

561
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:30,320
it works like if you try to set it at your own gym, it always works better in a corner.

562
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:36,560
And because like there are not that many corners on the comp climbing wall, it's pretty cool that

563
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:44,720
they can pull it off with these dual text volumes where you can only step blindly into it. And yeah,

564
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:51,200
competitors breaking a thing. I think it's their goal to find a way to the top. So it's totally

565
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:57,920
fine if they try to break something, as long as it's like cool show. And it's not way, way easier,

566
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:04,320
but just like same, same, but different. Cool. For me, it's cool to see this, because it's also

567
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,800
way of problem solving and being like flexible, being like, yeah, I cannot do this. Maybe I

568
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:18,720
find another solution. And yeah, I like this. Yeah, people love beta breaks. And so in terms of

569
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:27,680
the future, you mentioned climbing formats a bit different formats of competitions. Is there a format

570
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:35,440
that you like the most in terms of watching or setting? And you also recently set for,

571
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:43,760
it was called like set and send competition. Yeah. Yeah. Is that like a different format that you

572
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:49,440
liked or yeah, what's one you like the most? So I think my favorite format of all times is called

573
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:55,840
hard moves. We had it in Germany, I think 2010, 11, 13, and 16. 16 was the last

574
01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:03,200
reiteration and we will never do it again. But it was like 2016 was like, I think 26

575
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:09,280
participating gyms or maybe more or across Europe. And you competed for your own gym.

576
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:19,760
So you try to qualify each gym at like 60 or 100 boulder problems. And you try to climb as many as

577
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:27,360
possible top or nothing. That's how you get a point. So maximum 100 points and the top 10 competitors

578
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:35,280
of each gym qualify for that gym, seven guys and three women. And then it was called the then there

579
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:42,000
was a battle motors. For example, out of these 26 gyms, only 10 moved to the final climbing gym

580
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:48,800
where there was like with their teams. And to get there, for example, four gyms or six gyms out of

581
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:58,240
the area around Cologne battled on a battle day in 30 boulder problems as a team again. And then it

582
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:03,760
was like really important that you if you were the strongest climber and you could climb potentially

583
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:11,520
all 30 or 40 or whatever all all boulder problems, is it worth that you climb all 30 boulder problems

584
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:17,440
and are climbing all the time on your own? Or is it worth that you maybe only climb 28, but instead

585
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:22,080
of spending time for two more boulder problems, spend all the time with the teammates and try to

586
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:29,120
push and give beta and encourage and brush so the whole team gets more points? Then once you made it

587
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:35,840
through this battle, only three out of six moved into the next battle. We had like one final

588
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:41,600
location in Wuppertal where I think was 10 gyms. Now must have been more gyms even more because

589
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:49,600
the gym was packed with like 400 people for sure. Anyway out of these another battle one day, like

590
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:58,640
five hours, only six gyms moved into the super final which was in a pool like an indoor swimming

591
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:08,240
what do you call it like an indoor spa like with a pool. What do you call it? Yeah and so the walls

592
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:17,760
were built above water seven meters high and we had then in the finals every team puts six climbers

593
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:24,720
into the final two women four guys and there are six boulders to climb and everyone climbs only once

594
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:31,760
so the team in a team effort has to sit down and appoint each respectively climber and the sixth

595
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:38,880
boulder was hidden so it was like five yeah and then you climb only you get points the higher you go

596
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,520
and it was like really climbing in a team and shearing for a team and this is like something

597
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:50,320
really similar to what I mentioned in the beginning. Popular sports are to grow climbing into mass

598
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:56,240
popularity in my opinion you need to have something you can identify with as a fan whether it's a

599
01:05:56,240 --> 01:06:06,000
climber a rivalry or a team but if you try to qualify for your hometown gym as a whole team gym

600
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:10,400
you've been through like six weeks sessioning together then you went to the battle day battled

601
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:15,760
other gyms then you went to the final day and you climbed together the finals like the the atmosphere

602
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:22,320
is way better than any World Cup way better than any World Cup because your identification it's like

603
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:26,960
it's crazy like you're winning for your city for you for your gym I think this is pretty cool

604
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:33,440
and we've done this a little bit on in March we did this in a gym in the Netherlands that people

605
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:41,280
qualified in open category and amateur slash recreational category and then a lot of people

606
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:48,720
were waiting for the normal like usual format okay the six strongest dudes and the six strongest

607
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:54,240
women climbing against each other but then we people didn't know then we just packed like

608
01:06:55,280 --> 01:07:04,400
the best guy with the worst guy and like best so we created like four equal teams according to the

609
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:11,520
qualification or did we have five teams whatsoever and they climbed in the same format in the final

610
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:16,960
so they had to appoint one climber for each border problem and I think that was pretty cool

611
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:24,960
yeah this is probably not the future for the IFSC because the IFSC just goes Olympic into the IOC

612
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:34,960
and this is not feasible to to explain to sell to to we people should always be aware of that the

613
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:42,880
IFSC was founded for the clear goal to make climbing Olympic oh really yeah this there is

614
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:49,280
an interview on my channel I can give you the link with my I did with Marcos Golares on our

615
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:58,480
interview where he clearly explains how climbing became an Olympic sport and it also if you think

616
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:03,680
a little bit about it like you will it will show you like where climbing will go easier to understand

617
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:09,680
and whatsoever which is fine climbing is still like a really young sport but people should be

618
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:17,680
aware of or what I'd like to share is like that nothing is set in stone like you can do any

619
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:23,200
climbing competition you want by climbing so young do with it what you want try new formats

620
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:27,120
go out there and experiment just because you see something on the stream doesn't mean like

621
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:31,120
that's the best for our sport for our community or especially for your local community

622
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:38,400
um there are so much stuff you can do there are so many rules unwritten so much fun you can have

623
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:45,520
especially with fun local comps just in my gym we do 30 qualification blocks and then

624
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:52,960
three final blocks for each category and only three tries for each boarder finals quicker faster

625
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:59,600
over sometimes it works sometimes not and I think that's what people should be know about the

626
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:06,160
the comps in general and comp future I think it will be a little bit easier to understand maybe

627
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:12,240
they put like numbers at some point next to the holes so it's more obvious to see who climbs

628
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:19,520
which and what and they should also be aware of that the combined format was like something

629
01:09:20,480 --> 01:09:26,480
what just needed to be done to include climbing in the olympic games and that there were like

630
01:09:26,480 --> 01:09:33,360
many crazy ideas beforehand I think there used to be competitions which had a shootout motors

631
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:39,200
and at my home town gym we used to do this uh six finalists start in boulder number one four

632
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:45,280
finalists go to boulder number two and then only two go to the last it's yeah it's highly unfair

633
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:49,200
because if you don't like the jump in boulder number one you won't maybe not make it to the

634
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:56,400
physical boulder yada yada but it's really spectacular and that's what as far as I know

635
01:09:56,400 --> 01:10:03,760
the ifsc or the president planned for the first combined format he was like okay first we will

636
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:11,440
do speed then bouldering and then lead because lead is his special like his favorite discipline

637
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:17,840
but like the best lead climbers would have never arrived in the lead shootout because like from 20

638
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:22,480
to 12 to six finalists first all the speed climbers kick all the slow lead climbers out

639
01:10:22,480 --> 01:10:26,560
then the boulderers climb the rest of the lead climbers out then you have only boulderers and

640
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:32,000
speed climbers in the finals on lead so this would have I think that was the proposal as far as I

641
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:37,360
know and then like all and then all the federations stepped in and were like no no no we need to

642
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:44,000
develop a different format and then they developed this different format like in a few days in 2017

643
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:52,240
which later then used in 2018 again at the world championship in sprook yeah so the sport is

644
01:10:53,440 --> 01:10:58,480
pretty young there will be more changes and especially if you're not bound to the ifsc

645
01:10:58,480 --> 01:11:04,640
I'm happy to see new components and new ideas there's always something you can do yeah definitely

646
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:11,680
send me that video that sounds really interesting um I'll put everything in the show notes um and

647
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:21,040
it would also yeah I I hadn't ever thought about this team based approach uh with like different

648
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:26,160
cities and stuff that would be really interesting to see but I guess Japan would just blow everyone

649
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:35,200
out of the water so pretty much don't have a good time against team b pump but when it comes to

650
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:41,840
when it comes to like my idea would be that for example you have a world cup in the united states

651
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:47,840
you have a world cup in france you have a world cup in italy uh whatsoever around the world but

652
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:54,720
that each world cup feels a little bit more it feels different for example in the united states

653
01:11:54,720 --> 01:12:00,880
it's uh maybe it's an exaggeration but like a lot of the american set-ups like to be a little bit

654
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:07,600
more physical and with deep big pinches and it would make sense in my my opinion if to make it

655
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:15,520
feel more american only use american brands kilter e-groups i don't know like more stuff like this

656
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:21,520
just as a majority too so the american climbers always have like a

657
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:29,280
have a pro what does it mean like a benefit benefit like a step advantage advantage yeah sorry

658
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:35,280
advantage that's it but then when you go to france for example you climb on french slabs on french

659
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:40,080
grips i mean it's it's a little bit more delicate so you always know like ah french world cup

660
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:45,840
it's pretty technical then you go to italy where they have like steep limestone roots for example

661
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:51,280
and small pockets and also italian brands so we have this hometown advantage and every world cup

662
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:56,000
feels like super different that would be really nice because take a look at tennis you start

663
01:12:56,000 --> 01:13:02,240
with the australian open it's hardcore then you go to france you play ron o'connor you play on

664
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:08,400
sand on clay where you had rafael nadal who only lost like three games in his whole life like he

665
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:16,000
won 112 games lost only three so that's a advantage and then you know like now i'm going to slovenia

666
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:21,280
and it's not only because it's janja with it's like the whole slovenian team is so used to the

667
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:27,680
their slovenian walls slovenian brands so it's like really really like beating the slovenian

668
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:34,560
in slovenia this would be like something yeah like that's what i'm thinking about

669
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:42,400
would be like cooler for the storytelling and yeah it would be like super interesting but like

670
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:46,880
a lot of other sports have this like tennis again like wimbledon right now in london and

671
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:53,840
in football slash soccer in europe you have like this hometown advantage with the hometown fans

672
01:13:55,520 --> 01:14:01,360
it's just very very different i don't know whether it's like the same in united states but yeah like

673
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:07,040
you have this um nba like you have the best of seven you travel like three times four times back

674
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:13,680
and forth that's just like if the whole town is like in one wipe and you know like there are

675
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:19,760
people coming from the outside trying to win in our town i think that's a pretty different vibe to

676
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:26,400
okay we all go together somewhere and have a good time which is fun and it's nice like it's it's

677
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:31,040
cool to be in a in a world cup hosting town which is small as brixen or like some of the

678
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:37,760
lead world cups like villars there's always climbers everywhere around and it's a nice atmosphere

679
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:43,520
but yeah a little bit more of rivalry or like something like some spark would be would be too

680
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:52,000
bad in my opinion i wonder if that would bring more money into climbing in a way

681
01:14:53,760 --> 01:15:02,560
i think more money into climbing is only possible if climbers have more person personality i think

682
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:11,120
it's pretty it's it's speaking for our sport that the most well-known climber in the world is alex

683
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:16,640
honnold of course he did something pretty crazy but like he's also i think he's on the spectrum

684
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:25,200
right like i oh i have no idea anyway like he's he's he's super funny super like honest and super

685
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:32,800
like out speaking yeah outspoken with his thoughts and it's super charismatic but a lot of these

686
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:39,760
please tell me your favorite charismatic comp climber um i love stasa yeah stasa is good

687
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:42,480
stasa is good okay tell me more

688
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:51,440
who yeah who would you take to put into Oprah Oprah is not on air anymore i know that but

689
01:15:51,440 --> 01:15:59,120
who would you put on air on oprah's couch and they had like two minutes to describe why is climbing

690
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:06,480
so cool or come climbing i don't know yeah it's hard it's on the one hand it's it's the format

691
01:16:06,480 --> 01:16:10,960
which is difficult to explain and on the other hand like which character could go out there

692
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:18,560
and be like climbing is fucking dope and climbing competitions are even more dope so here sponsor me

693
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:25,680
yeah i guess that is hard um i don't think i consume enough sports content to know

694
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:31,680
who that person is for other sports though are there a lot of like famous other sports like

695
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:37,600
like sport like tom brady like all the nba players it's like michael jordan like created like

696
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:45,120
a whole lifestyle bread lifestyle brand but like it's yeah but it sounds like you ask the question

697
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:50,080
like to bring more money into climbing the thing is there's money money in climbing but not like

698
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:56,320
into in competition climbing like the climbing gyms we are doing well we attract more and more

699
01:16:56,320 --> 01:17:02,480
people we get nice people we build nice communities we're trying to make life better for root sellers

700
01:17:02,480 --> 01:17:08,240
which is difficult we should try to get more diversity in we should try to improve diversity

701
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:14,720
in climbing in general in comp climbing there's zero competition in climbing but we should try

702
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:22,800
zero to none it's fucked up like especially for root setting um but like there's money in it like

703
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:32,560
there are people millionaires and climbing due to the climbing gyms and um but there's not that kind

704
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:40,000
of money what we think there could be in climbing competitions yes we don't have rolex or fred perry

705
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:47,920
as a sponsor of stuff like this yeah the sponsors i guess that might be part of it well stuff to

706
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:54,960
think about um i think yeah that's that's everything i wanted to cover um anything else that we didn't

707
01:17:54,960 --> 01:18:01,760
get a chance to talk about that you wanted to bring up no i hope i didn't come uh i didn't

708
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:09,760
sound too negative about comp climbing or like the ifc it's just like that i'd like to use this like

709
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:15,200
to show people that it's not like not everything is set in stone do what you want if you're open

710
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:21,840
like to have suggestions like try them on their own like approach your gym as roots had us as a

711
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:28,000
community come up with ideas like there's so much cool stuff you can do and just because it's streamed

712
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:33,920
online on youtube at the ifc it's not the only thing which is what's happening and climbing

713
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:40,160
and especially tackling problems like diversity and gender problems in climbing and the

714
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:45,360
creation of groups of climbing i'm pretty sure the ifc will not solve these problems we have to do it

715
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:51,440
on our communal commercial area and especially like saving the outdoors or treating teaching

716
01:18:51,440 --> 01:18:58,240
people how to behave outside if people like to go outside i always say stay inside watch twitch play

717
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:06,640
play computer games watch all the other sports it's okay it's also fun but like all this educational

718
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:13,600
stuff and how we behave as a community where do we want to go as a community i think this happens

719
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:20,400
with our climbing gyms we visit on a daily weekly basis and if there's anything we didn't talk about

720
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:24,240
let me know i'm always happy to talk about climbing if it's more about route setting

721
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:30,000
you want to know specific in specific like how route setting works feel free to hit me up or watch

722
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:35,200
my channel yeah would you like to let everyone know where they can find you if they want to learn

723
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:41,760
more about route setting holds just following your journey yeah my name is niklas wichmann but

724
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:48,800
everyone calls me nicky and you can call me find me on instagram uh with schnicklas or beta route

725
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:56,080
setting on youtube awesome all right well thank you again it was so great to talk to you yeah thank

726
01:19:56,080 --> 01:20:02,080
you for the invitation and uh have fun climbing and have fun with this podcast hopefully let me

727
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:05,520
know what you think yeah because like with the podcast it's always a little bit difficult to

728
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:12,320
receive feedback that's my um experience and if there's like anyone out there has like any

729
01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:18,080
thoughts comments concerns like hit it hit me on youtube or whatsoever like write into the comments

730
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:24,800
i'll read usually everything and i'm thankful to get feedback and whether it's negative positive

731
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:30,800
i can just learn with it and then we see what happens yeah same here cool thank you hi if you

732
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:36,240
made it all the way to the end of the podcast here thank you so much for sticking with me and

733
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:43,280
i hope you enjoyed i'm just starting out so please i welcome any constructive feedback or suggestions

734
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:48,800
you can leave them in the comments below if you're watching on youtube or you can leave it through a

735
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:54,080
review or you can reach out through my competition climbing discord server also linked in the

736
01:20:54,080 --> 01:21:13,840
description throughout all of the platforms thanks again for listening