Deb Ruth is a Senior clinician and Social Worker specialising in child protection, trauma,
mental health and nervous system regulation. Deb has a keen interest in the neuroscience
of mental health, especially the effects of the nervous system and is married to her soulmate
Fletcher of 20 years, two adult sons and has lived in WA for four years after relocating
from New Zealand. At the moment Deb is contracted senior therapist for South West wellbeing
and in the midst of writing corporate trainings around mental health and the nervous system.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure. So today we're talking all about habits in the brain. So how did you
get started? Like was it something that you were always passionate about or was it something
that you fell into?
It kind of was something I fell into. I was always really interested in how people decided
things, how they got to the point they were in their lives once they were adults. So I
was kind of a mature student when I started social work in my early thirties and the first
placement I got as a social worker was under a manager who'd actually written a lot of
government programmes around trauma and children specifically. So that's really where I got
into the neuroscience of children from, especially from the ages of zero to three and the impacts
of experiences around those ages that have on them as adults.
How fascinating. And I think it's so important at that age that we are able to look at it
and then learn from it as well so that when we are adults we can kind of see the different
perspectives and what they can offer us.
That's right. Yeah. Yeah, Carol.
Oh, sorry. I was just going to say, so how do habits form in the brain or what part of
the brain is it that form habits?
That's probably the biggest complex question because there's so many parts.
I like to start.
There's so many parts that, yeah, and I want it really from my perspective, what it comes
down to is as babies and young children, our brain develops from the bottom up. So when
we're first in neutral, our base brain or the limbic system is very alive, which is
your, everything to do with your heartbeat and your temperature and that's where fight,
flight and freeze come from. But as you grow in those first three years, all the levels
of the brain are depending on the experiences that you have with your caregivers. That's
how they all link together. So the health of all the neurotransmitters, neural pathways,
your sort of dopamine uptake is all sort of categorized around those experiences, probably
mostly first three years, but then the bigger picture for seven years.
So that's why adults-
Oh, sorry. It sounds like a lot of our habits then are based on external factors.
A huge amount as well, like there's external and then there's of course biology. There
is the inherited types of conditions like neuro conditions that can happen. There's
lots and lots of studies around the mental health conditions such as schizophrenia and
bipolar and ADHD because they're all involved in the workings of habit forming parts of
the brain. I think that's why it's so complex because our brains are not cookie cutters.
Like sort of can be studied as a cookie cutter, but they really aren't, especially when you
have adverse childhood experiences versus whatever healthy, normal experiences that
you get. For instance, the amount of eye contact and facial contact you get with your parents
in your first three years actually awakens lots of neurotransmitters and pathways. So
if you have neglect in that way, then those neurotransmitters don't actually come online.
So then that would play a really big role with that next generation that a lot of them
are in childcare because we've got two parent families working.
Yes, huge. There was a study done by one of our New Zealand neuroscientists and neuro
clinicians. He was a neuroscientist and there was a longitudinal study around the eldest
girl in the family. Around about 60 something percent of the eldest girls ended up having
a higher qualification tertiary and earning more because the eldest child got a lot more
of the attention because a lot more one on one attention, lots more neurotransmitters,
lots more neural pathways, lots more healthy sort of reactions in that way. So that was
pretty incredible to read actually.
And so can you explain the concept of neural pathways and how they relate to habit forming?
So that's a really easy way that I love to talk to clients about is that it's like a
lot of us at WA are familiar with four wheel driving and it's very similar to a four wheel
drive track. So a lot of those habit forming things we learn as children, biologically
and as humans is around sort of the dopamine effects of different things. So for instance,
if you are learning as a child that you're not going to be touching something hot, there's
going to be a negative effect. So that kind of forces our choosing to be something that's
not negative if you get what I mean. So that's forming a habit of kind of a negative kind
of result from touching something you're not supposed to. But as we grow up, the neural
pathways through life, people that we see, watch, people that we hang around, the culture
that we're in, form the neural pathways like four wheel drive tracks. So you're going along
a four wheel drive track and it's kind of an easy-ish, but if you try and go off it,
it's very hard.
Oh, that's such a great example.
Yeah. So that's around the same thing with habits. Our brain is very clever at conserving
energy. So things like habit formings that we do when we're young, like which foot do
you put first in your pair of pants? That's a habit. And we don't actually realize that
our brain doesn't even think about it.
That's just hard wise.
Because it's conserving, yeah, it's conserving energy. So the more you try and put towards
forming a new habit, the more energy it's going to take for our brain. Our brain doesn't
like that. It'll always try and go back, hence the four wheel drive track. So when I'm sort
of talking to clients around new habits to do with their, a lot of the clients that I
see are very, very activated nervous systems. And a lot of our nervous systems are actually
habitually in high alert. And it's the new habits of trialing little, little things that
create a peaceful or a dopamine effect.
So when we're in that, oh sorry to interrupt, when we're in that high state that you mentioned,
is it possible to form new habits or do we need to alter those levels first so that we're
able to then be at a more neutral level before we can form new habits?
I believe that you do. Usually like if you think of addictions and I work in a support
some people in rehab at the moment. So I go in once a week to talk with them. And the
only reason that they are changing their habits because they hit rock bottom and they hit
a place where there was almost a dorsal vagal kind of response, which means it's very low
energy, very low. They have no activation. It's very like hypo activated.
So how, what are some things that you can do? And I'm sort of going a little bit off topic
here, but what are some things that you can do to improve that so that then you're able
to then work on those new habits?
Really it comes down to connection with people who are safe. It's really comes down to if
the nervous system feels safe enough to actually choose something. So if you're not feeling
safe enough, like deep down, your nervous system won't choose it. It'll run, it will
go from it.
I think that can be really hard when you've been in that trauma situation to kind of work
out in your own mind who is that safe person that you can trust to then get that connection.
Exactly. When I do work with the ones at the rehab and it is a little bit different than
working with my private clients because a lot of my private clients, their nervous systems
are very activated. So they're coming in very highly emotional. And then when I'm working
with the ones in the rehab who have already decided to stop and to abstain, it's a lot
easier for them to actually try some of the things, some of the strategies we talk about.
Some of them are very simple, like lying on grass and going out under a tree, connecting
with the soil and really slowing down their mornings. It's been a big key. Then the ones
I have privately who are unable to stop because they're still trying to function in life.
So yeah, complex.
It is. And I guess on that note, so then how do our brains work out the difference between
the good habits and the bad habits? When you're talking about like drug addiction or alcohol
or other addictions.
Yeah. Addictions are really, again, very complex. There is a lot of material evidence out there
around adverse experiences in childhood, correlating to addictions and childhood trauma and all
that sort of thing. But to notice the difference between bad or good habits when you're in
that space is something the brain is all it's doing is searching very hard for safety. In
any way, shape or form, that's what it's wanting to do. So the choosing is based on what is
going to feel safe right at this moment. So a habit of meth use or cocaine or heroin or
any of those higher end drugs, there's a very quick fix to what they perceive as safety.
Very quick one. And then the calm down is like, oh.
Yeah. But even if you know that there are potential overdoses, I guess if you are so
used to being in that pattern, then it is safe for you. Yeah, that's a really tricky
one. And so how does the brain then adapt to changes in routine?
That's a big, that's again the comes back to the four wheel drive analogy. It's really
tough to adapt to change. It's actual using, your brain uses a lot of energy in that space
because it's forward thinking. It is using a lot of that prefrontal cortex executive
function. And if that has been not so much damage, but if it's been the development of
that had been marred by anything, biological or external, it can be very, very hard to
change your habits. And that's where a lot of, I suppose, relapse comes in or even just
like normal overeating or under eating or being addicted to exercise. Yeah. It all comes
in there. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You mentioned dopamine before. So what impact does that have? Like a neurotransmitter have
on habit forming? Pretty big, actually. It's, dopamine is involved
in, I think, pretty much everywhere in the brain. But if there's a place that it's inhibited
or it's unable to transmute, that's where you get lots of, so for instance, if it's
unable to transmute properly, you do get, that's what they find in ADHD and schizophrenia
and other kinds of quite severe mental health. But I suppose the dopamine part of it is,
they say it's a pleasure, it's a pleasure hormone or a pleasure neurotransmitter, but
it's more around like, just trying to think what I was thinking about before. It's more
around the motivation. Is it a positive motivation or a negative motivation? So for instance,
very, I don't know if you have heard of the cold plungers that people are getting into
now? Yeah. So that's a lot of mental energy to get to that point, but the cold plungers
almost resets dopamine and serotonin. And so people get addicted to it because of the
rush of dopamine that comes in afterwards. So it's almost like, and that's where the
drugs come in as a whole. If you have a huge amount of rush of dopamine, which is unnatural,
that's where you get the addiction type behaviors. But if you have that, one way they're doing
through the Wim Hof sort of strategies that they teach is that it's a dopamine rush that's
natural, it's naturally created by your own body. And that's where they're saying the
health benefits and mental clarity and motivation and get a better feelings of, I don't know,
health and vitality. So there's a bit of science going on there. I think a lot of research
happening around that now. So is it then that you need to do to get the dopamine level to
get the motivation to continue doing? Is that the way I'm understanding it?
It again goes back to the complexity of safety of feelings of. So the feelings that you get
from safety come from your autonomic nervous system, which is directly resulted from the
health of your neurotransmitters, the health of your dopamine and serotonin uptake. And
it can be diet, it can be environment, it can be external stresses. So it's really one
of those complex questions, I think.
And so if you're, say, homeless or you have addictions where you probably have a harder
time then getting those nutrients and getting the food that you need, then I imagine then
it would be even harder to get yourself on the right path to change those habits because
your body's not getting the nutrients to feed your brain.
Yeah, that's pretty much a very big part of it. I used to run a community hub in my hometown
in New Zealand. And one of our main, our real main ethos was around connecting with our
chronic homeless community because it was so big over there. It's been big over there
for about 10 years.
Really?
Yeah, it's huge. It's like when I moved over here, there was nothing compared to home.
But we used to really provide a safe, well, this is what we try to do, provide a safe
place that they could come without judgment. So we had showers and we had clothes and we
would sit there and have cuppers with them and just really make an effort for them to
be supported in the space. And it took about, I was there for three years, and I'd say
a good majority of them really felt safe. And they would ask their mental health nurses
because a lot of them had injections for different mental health conditions. They would come
into our space because that's where they felt safe. But some of the different decisions
they would make around their money started changing because we started supporting them
with food and it wasn't so much giving them a handout, it was a hand up. So we would charge
them $10 for a week for a whole like a parcel of food that they wanted to choose. And they
would start prioritizing $10 a week, whereas before it would go to alcohol.
Yeah.
So it all came about through connection.
Yeah. And it sounds like it took quite a period of time though to get those results.
Yes, a very long time because they are in themselves, they are a family.
Yes.
And so we had chronic homeless and situational homeless over there around what we're seeing
here now, the rental crisis. But our chronic homeless, we would get them to a point where
we would secure some housing or some kind of option, but it would only last a very small
amount of time because they were alone and lonely and they crave the connection, habit
connection of their own friends and the people they felt comfortable with. So the choosing
of being in a home rather than being with people they trusted was a bigger motivation.
And I'm going off on a slightly different track here, but I know that when I used to
work with homeless kids with mental illness and drug and alcohol issues, and we had mandalas
and we'd have coloring in pencils there and it was not to minimize in a childlike way
their age or anything along those lines, but it's because that repetitive action of coloring
in can help to alleviate stress in the brain.
So it sure does.
I'm really interested, you've mentioned connection, but also about mindfulness and meditation
and what ways that can affect the neural circuits related to habits.
From my own, I suppose, view or just watching some of my clients for the last few years
is that that type of meditation and it's really a slowing down and relaxing of the nervous
system. And that allows a lot more positive chemicals to flow. Because if you think about
rushing, think about being in a kind of high alert arena that a lot of our homeless community
are in most of the time. There's no real space in that nervous system for peace and calm.
So there's a rush going on in the brain and the cortisol that comes in to keep you on
high alert prevents some of the other chemicals coming in that can help with almost, I'm trying
to say, choosing things that are better for you really, mindful choosing I suppose, mindful
actions. So if you're able to create a bit of slow down or a bit of safety and peace,
especially with the repetitive stuff, that can really calm down the nervous system. That's
all this big cycle, determining whether we feel safe or not. Not even like, we don't
even have to say, oh, I feel safe, our actual nervous system, feeling safe or not. Does
that make sense?
Absolutely. I think it's quite a big area as far as trying to get that nervous system
to slow down and go back to that neutral zone.
Hugely. I've got lots of very, not high end clients, but clients that are in high pressure
work environments. Not so much corporate, but just like a lot of mining clients here.
I've got clients who are supervising in the mining industry and the amount of pressure
that comes on that type of role, safety wise, and you're looking after a lot of people's
lives or you've got a lot of people relying on your skill. That in itself activates the
nervous system in a way that's productive. But if you have that all the time for years,
I've got several of them like that now, they're finding they can't find joy in anything because
they're so fried and their nervous system is so used to running very, very quickly.
We're seeing a lot of that.
What would be maybe the top five things that you would, connection included, give to your
clients as sort of little homework, I guess, to help change those habits and to start forming
new habits?
The top five things, one of them would be the ones that aren't at the point of breaking
down. I sort of talk to them about what their interests are, what things that really float
their, what they really find joy out of. A lot of them are different. One of them is
a keen mountain biker. And I'll tell you, okay, we, and he hadn't done it for so long.
So we chatted about, okay, this is one of your missions for the week is to get out twice,
put on music in your head and your ears, be on the mountain, why you just have to have
one on and then come back and I want you to tell me exactly what you noticed in your body
afterwards. And I was actually, instead of doing it mindlessly, you're doing it mindfully.
So it's real mindful slowing down. You're actually noticing what your body's doing.
Are you breathing slower? Are you finding your thoughts are more calmer? That sort of
thing.
The other thing I do is a nervous system protocol, which is for my ones that are really so strung
out and they can't even think. And it's usually in conjunction with support from family members.
It is most definitely time off their work. This is for my heart like real acute. And
it's an actual new, it's an actual reset. So it's allowing the nervous system enough
time to come down enough so we can work on maintaining a little bit more calm.
And then you're getting that connection with family as well. So it's a bonus. Yep.
I usually bring family in. A lot of mine have actually been older teenagers and that's very
common because of the structure of the brain that's happening in those years. And having
that buy in from a family, it causes a bit of relax for the teen to be able to actually
do what they need to do to bring their nervous system back down again.
Yes, it's quite a, and it comes again, comes back to what is their motivation to actually,
I usually ask them, what are your goals here? Because if your goal is for me to fix this
arena, then I'm not going to be able to do that until your nervous system is supported
and you actually do the work. So I do get to that point with them. I can send them away
with strategies, but if they are unable to choose them, and that usually comes back again
to what we're talking about, and what's their motivation. And a lot of them are so strung
out they do trial of few things. I don't give them too many things.
No, but there needs to be an accountability in there as well.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Because they just come for an hour a week or an hour every two weeks. But I'm really
impressed with the strength of some people and what they've come through.
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
I had one young girl who had a lot of stuff going on for her, lots, and some biological
and some not, but she trialed one thing. And it was basically just, so we had a nervous
system protocol for her and for her family to support. And it was, she's a type of nervous
system that just needs peace and space from people. Because she's very, very sensitive
to everyone else's. And it was basically just swimming in her pool with no one interrupting
as long as she needed. And she came back and said how much her brain slowed down because
she wasn't worried about people interrupting or asking her things or she just could just
be. And that was really important for her. So I was really proud of her doing that because
it's huge.
Oh, and that's incredible. And I think some people are people persons and some people
aren't.
Yeah, some people aren't. That's right.
That's important. We are coming to the end. It comes around really quickly. Is there anything
else that you would like to add in relation to habit forming?
I think habit forming is probably the, it's one of the top things that everybody struggles
with. It's habit forming and it's breaking them. So I think having an understanding and
actually bringing yourself to a point where what do I want? What do I want with my life
actually being honest about that? And even seeking support on how to get there. Because
it can really help with just getting a few little tweaks. It does go a long way.
Okay, well, how can people reach out to you if they'd like to find out more?
So I am contracting through Southwest Wellbeing Center in Bunbury. That is the perfect place
to get hold of me. I'm just going to grab up the actual contact. I'm sorry, I should
have got that.
That's okay. Is there a Facebook page for the?
Yeah. Yes, there is a Facebook page for Southwest Wellbeing Center at the moment as well as
a website. But we're on 0897919955. And a lot of us there have lots of experience in
that arena.
Well fantastic. Thank you, Deb Nicholls.
No worries.
And I look forward to having you again sometime.
Thank you so much.