1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,360 Deb Ruth is a Senior clinician and Social Worker specialising in child protection, trauma, 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:11,600 mental health and nervous system regulation. Deb has a keen interest in the neuroscience 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:18,160 of mental health, especially the effects of the nervous system and is married to her soulmate 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:25,060 Fletcher of 20 years, two adult sons and has lived in WA for four years after relocating 5 00:00:25,060 --> 00:00:32,680 from New Zealand. At the moment Deb is contracted senior therapist for South West wellbeing 6 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:37,660 and in the midst of writing corporate trainings around mental health and the nervous system. 7 00:00:37,660 --> 00:00:39,640 Thank you so much for joining me today. 8 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,640 Thank you for having me. 9 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:49,520 It's a pleasure. So today we're talking all about habits in the brain. So how did you 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,080 get started? Like was it something that you were always passionate about or was it something 11 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,320 that you fell into? 12 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:03,920 It kind of was something I fell into. I was always really interested in how people decided 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,400 things, how they got to the point they were in their lives once they were adults. So I 14 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:16,520 was kind of a mature student when I started social work in my early thirties and the first 15 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,640 placement I got as a social worker was under a manager who'd actually written a lot of 16 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:28,880 government programmes around trauma and children specifically. So that's really where I got 17 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:37,560 into the neuroscience of children from, especially from the ages of zero to three and the impacts 18 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:43,680 of experiences around those ages that have on them as adults. 19 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:49,880 How fascinating. And I think it's so important at that age that we are able to look at it 20 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:55,720 and then learn from it as well so that when we are adults we can kind of see the different 21 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,240 perspectives and what they can offer us. 22 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,240 That's right. Yeah. Yeah, Carol. 23 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:06,520 Oh, sorry. I was just going to say, so how do habits form in the brain or what part of 24 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,280 the brain is it that form habits? 25 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,600 That's probably the biggest complex question because there's so many parts. 26 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:13,600 I like to start. 27 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:19,080 There's so many parts that, yeah, and I want it really from my perspective, what it comes 28 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:25,480 down to is as babies and young children, our brain develops from the bottom up. So when 29 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,080 we're first in neutral, our base brain or the limbic system is very alive, which is 30 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,520 your, everything to do with your heartbeat and your temperature and that's where fight, 31 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:40,120 flight and freeze come from. But as you grow in those first three years, all the levels 32 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:46,280 of the brain are depending on the experiences that you have with your caregivers. That's 33 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:53,240 how they all link together. So the health of all the neurotransmitters, neural pathways, 34 00:02:53,240 --> 00:03:00,360 your sort of dopamine uptake is all sort of categorized around those experiences, probably 35 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,480 mostly first three years, but then the bigger picture for seven years. 36 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:05,480 So that's why adults- 37 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:11,320 Oh, sorry. It sounds like a lot of our habits then are based on external factors. 38 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:16,520 A huge amount as well, like there's external and then there's of course biology. There 39 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:23,040 is the inherited types of conditions like neuro conditions that can happen. There's 40 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:28,400 lots and lots of studies around the mental health conditions such as schizophrenia and 41 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:35,720 bipolar and ADHD because they're all involved in the workings of habit forming parts of 42 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:42,440 the brain. I think that's why it's so complex because our brains are not cookie cutters. 43 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:47,880 Like sort of can be studied as a cookie cutter, but they really aren't, especially when you 44 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:55,160 have adverse childhood experiences versus whatever healthy, normal experiences that 45 00:03:55,160 --> 00:04:01,960 you get. For instance, the amount of eye contact and facial contact you get with your parents 46 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:07,360 in your first three years actually awakens lots of neurotransmitters and pathways. So 47 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:13,560 if you have neglect in that way, then those neurotransmitters don't actually come online. 48 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:20,360 So then that would play a really big role with that next generation that a lot of them 49 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,960 are in childcare because we've got two parent families working. 50 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:33,400 Yes, huge. There was a study done by one of our New Zealand neuroscientists and neuro 51 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:39,440 clinicians. He was a neuroscientist and there was a longitudinal study around the eldest 52 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:49,640 girl in the family. Around about 60 something percent of the eldest girls ended up having 53 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:57,760 a higher qualification tertiary and earning more because the eldest child got a lot more 54 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:03,480 of the attention because a lot more one on one attention, lots more neurotransmitters, 55 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:09,000 lots more neural pathways, lots more healthy sort of reactions in that way. So that was 56 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,000 pretty incredible to read actually. 57 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:19,160 And so can you explain the concept of neural pathways and how they relate to habit forming? 58 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:26,800 So that's a really easy way that I love to talk to clients about is that it's like a 59 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:32,240 lot of us at WA are familiar with four wheel driving and it's very similar to a four wheel 60 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:38,680 drive track. So a lot of those habit forming things we learn as children, biologically 61 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:48,400 and as humans is around sort of the dopamine effects of different things. So for instance, 62 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,440 if you are learning as a child that you're not going to be touching something hot, there's 63 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:59,720 going to be a negative effect. So that kind of forces our choosing to be something that's 64 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:07,040 not negative if you get what I mean. So that's forming a habit of kind of a negative kind 65 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:15,080 of result from touching something you're not supposed to. But as we grow up, the neural 66 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:20,680 pathways through life, people that we see, watch, people that we hang around, the culture 67 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:26,400 that we're in, form the neural pathways like four wheel drive tracks. So you're going along 68 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:31,000 a four wheel drive track and it's kind of an easy-ish, but if you try and go off it, 69 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,000 it's very hard. 70 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,800 Oh, that's such a great example. 71 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:41,480 Yeah. So that's around the same thing with habits. Our brain is very clever at conserving 72 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:47,440 energy. So things like habit formings that we do when we're young, like which foot do 73 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:53,920 you put first in your pair of pants? That's a habit. And we don't actually realize that 74 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,280 our brain doesn't even think about it. 75 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:57,280 That's just hard wise. 76 00:06:57,280 --> 00:07:02,900 Because it's conserving, yeah, it's conserving energy. So the more you try and put towards 77 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:07,800 forming a new habit, the more energy it's going to take for our brain. Our brain doesn't 78 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:14,360 like that. It'll always try and go back, hence the four wheel drive track. So when I'm sort 79 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:19,480 of talking to clients around new habits to do with their, a lot of the clients that I 80 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:25,560 see are very, very activated nervous systems. And a lot of our nervous systems are actually 81 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:32,560 habitually in high alert. And it's the new habits of trialing little, little things that 82 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,840 create a peaceful or a dopamine effect. 83 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,960 So when we're in that, oh sorry to interrupt, when we're in that high state that you mentioned, 84 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:47,880 is it possible to form new habits or do we need to alter those levels first so that we're 85 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:53,240 able to then be at a more neutral level before we can form new habits? 86 00:07:53,240 --> 00:08:01,160 I believe that you do. Usually like if you think of addictions and I work in a support 87 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:07,680 some people in rehab at the moment. So I go in once a week to talk with them. And the 88 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,080 only reason that they are changing their habits because they hit rock bottom and they hit 89 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:17,600 a place where there was almost a dorsal vagal kind of response, which means it's very low 90 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:23,920 energy, very low. They have no activation. It's very like hypo activated. 91 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,800 So how, what are some things that you can do? And I'm sort of going a little bit off topic 92 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:34,240 here, but what are some things that you can do to improve that so that then you're able 93 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,880 to then work on those new habits? 94 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:43,400 Really it comes down to connection with people who are safe. It's really comes down to if 95 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,560 the nervous system feels safe enough to actually choose something. So if you're not feeling 96 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:53,400 safe enough, like deep down, your nervous system won't choose it. It'll run, it will 97 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,240 go from it. 98 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,360 I think that can be really hard when you've been in that trauma situation to kind of work 99 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:07,120 out in your own mind who is that safe person that you can trust to then get that connection. 100 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:13,040 Exactly. When I do work with the ones at the rehab and it is a little bit different than 101 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,760 working with my private clients because a lot of my private clients, their nervous systems 102 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,740 are very activated. So they're coming in very highly emotional. And then when I'm working 103 00:09:22,740 --> 00:09:31,120 with the ones in the rehab who have already decided to stop and to abstain, it's a lot 104 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:37,200 easier for them to actually try some of the things, some of the strategies we talk about. 105 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,200 Some of them are very simple, like lying on grass and going out under a tree, connecting 106 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:50,840 with the soil and really slowing down their mornings. It's been a big key. Then the ones 107 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,800 I have privately who are unable to stop because they're still trying to function in life. 108 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,520 So yeah, complex. 109 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:06,560 It is. And I guess on that note, so then how do our brains work out the difference between 110 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:12,120 the good habits and the bad habits? When you're talking about like drug addiction or alcohol 111 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,440 or other addictions. 112 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:22,440 Yeah. Addictions are really, again, very complex. There is a lot of material evidence out there 113 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:30,600 around adverse experiences in childhood, correlating to addictions and childhood trauma and all 114 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:36,080 that sort of thing. But to notice the difference between bad or good habits when you're in 115 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:43,760 that space is something the brain is all it's doing is searching very hard for safety. In 116 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:49,440 any way, shape or form, that's what it's wanting to do. So the choosing is based on what is 117 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:56,680 going to feel safe right at this moment. So a habit of meth use or cocaine or heroin or 118 00:10:56,680 --> 00:11:04,320 any of those higher end drugs, there's a very quick fix to what they perceive as safety. 119 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:09,760 Very quick one. And then the calm down is like, oh. 120 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,920 Yeah. But even if you know that there are potential overdoses, I guess if you are so 121 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:20,880 used to being in that pattern, then it is safe for you. Yeah, that's a really tricky 122 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,880 one. And so how does the brain then adapt to changes in routine? 123 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:32,280 That's a big, that's again the comes back to the four wheel drive analogy. It's really 124 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:38,680 tough to adapt to change. It's actual using, your brain uses a lot of energy in that space 125 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:45,360 because it's forward thinking. It is using a lot of that prefrontal cortex executive 126 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:56,280 function. And if that has been not so much damage, but if it's been the development of 127 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:03,800 that had been marred by anything, biological or external, it can be very, very hard to 128 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:11,120 change your habits. And that's where a lot of, I suppose, relapse comes in or even just 129 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:19,720 like normal overeating or under eating or being addicted to exercise. Yeah. It all comes 130 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:24,920 in there. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 131 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:31,280 You mentioned dopamine before. So what impact does that have? Like a neurotransmitter have 132 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:38,760 on habit forming? Pretty big, actually. It's, dopamine is involved 133 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:45,600 in, I think, pretty much everywhere in the brain. But if there's a place that it's inhibited 134 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:54,400 or it's unable to transmute, that's where you get lots of, so for instance, if it's 135 00:12:54,400 --> 00:13:01,720 unable to transmute properly, you do get, that's what they find in ADHD and schizophrenia 136 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:11,240 and other kinds of quite severe mental health. But I suppose the dopamine part of it is, 137 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,760 they say it's a pleasure, it's a pleasure hormone or a pleasure neurotransmitter, but 138 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:21,240 it's more around like, just trying to think what I was thinking about before. It's more 139 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:27,280 around the motivation. Is it a positive motivation or a negative motivation? So for instance, 140 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:35,080 very, I don't know if you have heard of the cold plungers that people are getting into 141 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:43,360 now? Yeah. So that's a lot of mental energy to get to that point, but the cold plungers 142 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:50,720 almost resets dopamine and serotonin. And so people get addicted to it because of the 143 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:59,480 rush of dopamine that comes in afterwards. So it's almost like, and that's where the 144 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,840 drugs come in as a whole. If you have a huge amount of rush of dopamine, which is unnatural, 145 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:11,680 that's where you get the addiction type behaviors. But if you have that, one way they're doing 146 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:17,960 through the Wim Hof sort of strategies that they teach is that it's a dopamine rush that's 147 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:24,240 natural, it's naturally created by your own body. And that's where they're saying the 148 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:34,320 health benefits and mental clarity and motivation and get a better feelings of, I don't know, 149 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,720 health and vitality. So there's a bit of science going on there. I think a lot of research 150 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:47,760 happening around that now. So is it then that you need to do to get the dopamine level to 151 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:53,200 get the motivation to continue doing? Is that the way I'm understanding it? 152 00:14:53,200 --> 00:15:00,000 It again goes back to the complexity of safety of feelings of. So the feelings that you get 153 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:06,960 from safety come from your autonomic nervous system, which is directly resulted from the 154 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:13,720 health of your neurotransmitters, the health of your dopamine and serotonin uptake. And 155 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:24,880 it can be diet, it can be environment, it can be external stresses. So it's really one 156 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,880 of those complex questions, I think. 157 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:37,680 And so if you're, say, homeless or you have addictions where you probably have a harder 158 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:46,120 time then getting those nutrients and getting the food that you need, then I imagine then 159 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:52,360 it would be even harder to get yourself on the right path to change those habits because 160 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,720 your body's not getting the nutrients to feed your brain. 161 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:06,200 Yeah, that's pretty much a very big part of it. I used to run a community hub in my hometown 162 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:13,840 in New Zealand. And one of our main, our real main ethos was around connecting with our 163 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,960 chronic homeless community because it was so big over there. It's been big over there 164 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:18,960 for about 10 years. 165 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:19,960 Really? 166 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:28,360 Yeah, it's huge. It's like when I moved over here, there was nothing compared to home. 167 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,920 But we used to really provide a safe, well, this is what we try to do, provide a safe 168 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:38,040 place that they could come without judgment. So we had showers and we had clothes and we 169 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,760 would sit there and have cuppers with them and just really make an effort for them to 170 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:48,520 be supported in the space. And it took about, I was there for three years, and I'd say 171 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:56,160 a good majority of them really felt safe. And they would ask their mental health nurses 172 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:01,400 because a lot of them had injections for different mental health conditions. They would come 173 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:07,280 into our space because that's where they felt safe. But some of the different decisions 174 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:12,160 they would make around their money started changing because we started supporting them 175 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:17,840 with food and it wasn't so much giving them a handout, it was a hand up. So we would charge 176 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:25,520 them $10 for a week for a whole like a parcel of food that they wanted to choose. And they 177 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:30,840 would start prioritizing $10 a week, whereas before it would go to alcohol. 178 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:31,840 Yeah. 179 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,560 So it all came about through connection. 180 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,200 Yeah. And it sounds like it took quite a period of time though to get those results. 181 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:44,920 Yes, a very long time because they are in themselves, they are a family. 182 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:45,920 Yes. 183 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:52,120 And so we had chronic homeless and situational homeless over there around what we're seeing 184 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:59,840 here now, the rental crisis. But our chronic homeless, we would get them to a point where 185 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,000 we would secure some housing or some kind of option, but it would only last a very small 186 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:10,000 amount of time because they were alone and lonely and they crave the connection, habit 187 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:17,440 connection of their own friends and the people they felt comfortable with. So the choosing 188 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:26,360 of being in a home rather than being with people they trusted was a bigger motivation. 189 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:32,160 And I'm going off on a slightly different track here, but I know that when I used to 190 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:38,880 work with homeless kids with mental illness and drug and alcohol issues, and we had mandalas 191 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:52,160 and we'd have coloring in pencils there and it was not to minimize in a childlike way 192 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:59,200 their age or anything along those lines, but it's because that repetitive action of coloring 193 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,560 in can help to alleviate stress in the brain. 194 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,000 So it sure does. 195 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:14,680 I'm really interested, you've mentioned connection, but also about mindfulness and meditation 196 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:23,520 and what ways that can affect the neural circuits related to habits. 197 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:31,640 From my own, I suppose, view or just watching some of my clients for the last few years 198 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:38,880 is that that type of meditation and it's really a slowing down and relaxing of the nervous 199 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:47,600 system. And that allows a lot more positive chemicals to flow. Because if you think about 200 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:58,600 rushing, think about being in a kind of high alert arena that a lot of our homeless community 201 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:07,480 are in most of the time. There's no real space in that nervous system for peace and calm. 202 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:14,080 So there's a rush going on in the brain and the cortisol that comes in to keep you on 203 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:23,840 high alert prevents some of the other chemicals coming in that can help with almost, I'm trying 204 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:31,040 to say, choosing things that are better for you really, mindful choosing I suppose, mindful 205 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:37,800 actions. So if you're able to create a bit of slow down or a bit of safety and peace, 206 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:44,960 especially with the repetitive stuff, that can really calm down the nervous system. That's 207 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:51,760 all this big cycle, determining whether we feel safe or not. Not even like, we don't 208 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:58,040 even have to say, oh, I feel safe, our actual nervous system, feeling safe or not. Does 209 00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:59,040 that make sense? 210 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:09,200 Absolutely. I think it's quite a big area as far as trying to get that nervous system 211 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:14,280 to slow down and go back to that neutral zone. 212 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:22,480 Hugely. I've got lots of very, not high end clients, but clients that are in high pressure 213 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:29,160 work environments. Not so much corporate, but just like a lot of mining clients here. 214 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:37,480 I've got clients who are supervising in the mining industry and the amount of pressure 215 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:44,000 that comes on that type of role, safety wise, and you're looking after a lot of people's 216 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:54,120 lives or you've got a lot of people relying on your skill. That in itself activates the 217 00:21:54,120 --> 00:22:00,200 nervous system in a way that's productive. But if you have that all the time for years, 218 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:07,680 I've got several of them like that now, they're finding they can't find joy in anything because 219 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:14,200 they're so fried and their nervous system is so used to running very, very quickly. 220 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,560 We're seeing a lot of that. 221 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:24,280 What would be maybe the top five things that you would, connection included, give to your 222 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:34,360 clients as sort of little homework, I guess, to help change those habits and to start forming 223 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:35,360 new habits? 224 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:44,160 The top five things, one of them would be the ones that aren't at the point of breaking 225 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,200 down. I sort of talk to them about what their interests are, what things that really float 226 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,320 their, what they really find joy out of. A lot of them are different. One of them is 227 00:22:53,320 --> 00:23:00,680 a keen mountain biker. And I'll tell you, okay, we, and he hadn't done it for so long. 228 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,960 So we chatted about, okay, this is one of your missions for the week is to get out twice, 229 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:11,600 put on music in your head and your ears, be on the mountain, why you just have to have 230 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,360 one on and then come back and I want you to tell me exactly what you noticed in your body 231 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:21,760 afterwards. And I was actually, instead of doing it mindlessly, you're doing it mindfully. 232 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:28,400 So it's real mindful slowing down. You're actually noticing what your body's doing. 233 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:35,160 Are you breathing slower? Are you finding your thoughts are more calmer? That sort of 234 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,160 thing. 235 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:43,960 The other thing I do is a nervous system protocol, which is for my ones that are really so strung 236 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:51,000 out and they can't even think. And it's usually in conjunction with support from family members. 237 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:59,840 It is most definitely time off their work. This is for my heart like real acute. And 238 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:05,800 it's an actual new, it's an actual reset. So it's allowing the nervous system enough 239 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:12,760 time to come down enough so we can work on maintaining a little bit more calm. 240 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:19,320 And then you're getting that connection with family as well. So it's a bonus. Yep. 241 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:24,560 I usually bring family in. A lot of mine have actually been older teenagers and that's very 242 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:31,040 common because of the structure of the brain that's happening in those years. And having 243 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:36,880 that buy in from a family, it causes a bit of relax for the teen to be able to actually 244 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,480 do what they need to do to bring their nervous system back down again. 245 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:49,600 Yes, it's quite a, and it comes again, comes back to what is their motivation to actually, 246 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:55,480 I usually ask them, what are your goals here? Because if your goal is for me to fix this 247 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:01,880 arena, then I'm not going to be able to do that until your nervous system is supported 248 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:09,120 and you actually do the work. So I do get to that point with them. I can send them away 249 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:17,520 with strategies, but if they are unable to choose them, and that usually comes back again 250 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:23,280 to what we're talking about, and what's their motivation. And a lot of them are so strung 251 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,680 out they do trial of few things. I don't give them too many things. 252 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,840 No, but there needs to be an accountability in there as well. 253 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:32,840 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 254 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:39,400 Because they just come for an hour a week or an hour every two weeks. But I'm really 255 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,360 impressed with the strength of some people and what they've come through. 256 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:45,360 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 257 00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:54,480 I had one young girl who had a lot of stuff going on for her, lots, and some biological 258 00:25:54,480 --> 00:26:01,480 and some not, but she trialed one thing. And it was basically just, so we had a nervous 259 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:07,840 system protocol for her and for her family to support. And it was, she's a type of nervous 260 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:14,640 system that just needs peace and space from people. Because she's very, very sensitive 261 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:21,080 to everyone else's. And it was basically just swimming in her pool with no one interrupting 262 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:28,040 as long as she needed. And she came back and said how much her brain slowed down because 263 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,680 she wasn't worried about people interrupting or asking her things or she just could just 264 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,000 be. And that was really important for her. So I was really proud of her doing that because 265 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,000 it's huge. 266 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:43,640 Oh, and that's incredible. And I think some people are people persons and some people 267 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:44,640 aren't. 268 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,640 Yeah, some people aren't. That's right. 269 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:53,760 That's important. We are coming to the end. It comes around really quickly. Is there anything 270 00:26:53,760 --> 00:27:00,320 else that you would like to add in relation to habit forming? 271 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:09,440 I think habit forming is probably the, it's one of the top things that everybody struggles 272 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:16,000 with. It's habit forming and it's breaking them. So I think having an understanding and 273 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,520 actually bringing yourself to a point where what do I want? What do I want with my life 274 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:28,560 actually being honest about that? And even seeking support on how to get there. Because 275 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:36,120 it can really help with just getting a few little tweaks. It does go a long way. 276 00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:42,800 Okay, well, how can people reach out to you if they'd like to find out more? 277 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:51,440 So I am contracting through Southwest Wellbeing Center in Bunbury. That is the perfect place 278 00:27:51,440 --> 00:28:00,360 to get hold of me. I'm just going to grab up the actual contact. I'm sorry, I should 279 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:01,360 have got that. 280 00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:04,040 That's okay. Is there a Facebook page for the? 281 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:09,880 Yeah. Yes, there is a Facebook page for Southwest Wellbeing Center at the moment as well as 282 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:19,440 a website. But we're on 0897919955. And a lot of us there have lots of experience in 283 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,200 that arena. 284 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,840 Well fantastic. Thank you, Deb Nicholls. 285 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:25,840 No worries. 286 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,800 And I look forward to having you again sometime. 287 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:50,840 Thank you so much.