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Hi, I'm Quinn Carnegie. Welcome to Manifestation, Motivation and Passion. If you're looking to

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transform by delving into brain science, sacred inner wisdom and want to heal and feel great

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about your life and live in your powerful loving center, or springing affluence into your world,

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then tune in and let's evolve together. Lisa is a rock star life and business analyst,

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speaker and host of Epiphanish podcast and is also an established author, trainer and mental

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health advocate. Thank you, Lisa, for joining us today. Thank you for having me, Quinn. Lovely to

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be here. Thank you. Now, you've got quite a resume going on there. Can you tell us a little bit about

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how you got into it? Yeah, I can. So I spent essentially from 2005 to 2015. So that

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decade or so in the healthcare space as an ambulance paramedic. I was in healthcare prior

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to that in different roles. So really, you know, around 20 years or so in the healthcare space,

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I left ambulance with PTSD, anxiety and depression as per my psychiatric diagnosis, and

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because shortly fell into a hole and spent 18 months getting myself out of said hole.

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And, you know, I guess at that point of diagnosis, I was basically told by the medical fraternity,

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which I considered myself part of, you know, I went to uni to be an ambulance paramedic,

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I studied anatomy, like, you know, my background is quite, you know, I guess, like, the Western

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world mainstream medical, I come from a medical family, I've got doctors in the family. So that

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was my comfort space. And when I went to them for, okay, well, what do I do about this problem that

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I currently have now, I essentially got, we will try and get your medication balance correct,

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try and avoid your triggers, which was everything, life, the world, and, you know, cross your fingers

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and hope for the best. And I was put on a disability pension at 34 years of age, I had a

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two year old and a 12 and 14 year old step kids at that point. That's a lot. Yeah. So,

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oh, sorry, I was just going to say, so did you think you had PTSD or what did that?

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Before the diagnosis? Yeah. Yeah. No. I knew I was really angry, which was my primary symptom was

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rage. I knew I was really angry. And as far as I was concerned, everyone in the world was an

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asshole. That was my, that was my take on it. I've spoken about this before, it's a bit like being

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Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, right? So when she's whizzing around in the house in a tornado and she,

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and everyone goes, Oh no, there's a girl in a tornado. That's what it looks like from outside.

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As far as Dorothy's concerned, she's like, Oh, it's windy today. Right? What a great example.

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Like she's in it, right? When you're in it, your perception of what is happening is quite different.

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You just, it's one foot in front of the other. I've got to go to work to make money to buy

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groceries. So I'm going to put one foot in front of the other and I get up and I go to work and,

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you know, and you just do the do. So when you're in the middle of the storm, it's, it's kind of

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like, it's harder to recognize what's going on. And I, that's part of my issue with the reactive

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mental health care system we have at the moment, which relies on the individual having the awareness

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that they need to seek help. Like I was the last person to know that I was as unwell as I was.

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And when I came out of the PTSD closet, as I call it, and I came out and I said, listen, you know,

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I think, I think maybe I've got a problem. You know, I'm really, really, really, really,

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really angry all the time. And, and, you know, I've got a short temper and everything's annoying and

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I'm super irritable and you know, all the things, you know, I'm not sleeping and I'm having

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flashbacks. And, and when I, when I said that to my husband, he said, yeah, no shit. You've been

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awful to live with for two years. What do you mean? Right. Like I was the last one to my own PTSD

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party. Uh, I didn't realize how bad the situation was, how unwell I was because I felt like I

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didn't have a choice. Like I was just living day by day and you know, doing the things that had to

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be done. For others out there that maybe in a similar situation to that, are you comfortable

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and you don't have to go into this if you don't want to, but are you comfortable saying like,

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what, what did that look like on a day to day basis? Oh God, it's, um, so this is sort of

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2013, like 10 years ago now. So it's a little, it's a little cloudy, but, um, you know, at this

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point now, 10 years in the future, 10 years down the line in terms of, you know, healed and all of

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that, it's almost like thinking back is almost like it happened to somebody else. Like it's,

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it's very, it's so weird to think that that was actually my experience. I can tell you that,

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uh, I essentially had no, no patience, zero patience. Um, so I was very easily irritated

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and, and set off and you know, it's been referred to by many as, as the family walking on eggshells

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around you. That was absolutely the circumstance in, in our home is that everyone was very afraid

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to make a noise or say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing or, you know, whatever that was going

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to set mom off. But it's, it's, it's next level tricky because they don't know what's going to set

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me off. And I don't know what's going to see, you know, like we're all playing, we're playing a game

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and nobody knows the rules, right? But we're trying to keep within the rules. So I was very quick to

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anger. I was having what I called, uh, visitors. So for example, I was walking down the, you know,

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supermarket aisle, the fridge with butter and cheese and all that stuff is in the fridge.

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And I would get visions almost of, um, you know, like, you know, like, you know,

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um, people that have passed in traumatic circumstances from, from my career. And I would,

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I called them visitors and I would be like, not now. Now's not a good time. Like I'm just here to

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buy cheese, right? Like I just, and I kind of, yeah, I mean, in terms of the DSM diagnosis,

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they're flashbacks, right? Um, I had, I had those, I don't, I never remembered any nightmares.

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I possibly did have them, but didn't recall them in the morning. I certainly had terrible sleep,

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uh, broken sleep and, and, you know, couldn't fall asleep, couldn't stay asleep,

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woke up tired every day. And I think what's important to also mention is that PTSD

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doesn't, and, and mental health in general actually doesn't just live between your ears.

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It is a full body, full human experience.

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Oh, absolutely. Especially like when you've got, you know, like you're saying,

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everyday triggers. Oh, well, you know, it made me laugh and they're like, avoid your triggers.

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And I'm like, well, you know, when you've been to a car accident, driving on any road is a trigger.

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When you go to, you know, a cardiac arrest at a shopping center, going and doing the groceries is

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a trigger. Like, because we're not coming from a frontline perspective, right? We work in the

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community. We work in, uh, you know, schools and shopping centers and on the side of the road and

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like in the same place that we live as opposed to, for example, um, and I'm, and I'm not,

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I'm not comparing it to minimize either of them. I just, um, I'm trying to demonstrate the

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difference in triggers, so to speak. So for a soldier whose triggers are related to an overseas

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deployment, the triggers are different. Now your nervous system doesn't know the difference. Like,

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so, you know, you'd still absolutely be able to be triggered, but I know someone, uh, who's an

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Afghanistan veteran and the mountains, any sort of mountainscape takes him right back to Afghanistan.

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And his wife and him actually opened a yoga center and a healing center. And she had a picture on the

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wall, a painting that had waves like ocean waves, but the shape of the waves were quite mountainous.

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And he actually had to get her to change the photo on the wall, the picture, uh, because for him,

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it just took him straight back to the mountains of Afghanistan. The triggers, the, or the, or the

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things that I was attempting to avoid were Woolworths or the kids' school, or like the

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road that I drove up and down, because when you live and work in the same community, you know,

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I think these, you know, moments and places are essentially unavoidable, which is why I thought

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it was so ridiculous to suggest like avoid your triggers. I was like, okay, well, I'll just

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stay in my house. Like where, what, yeah. Okay. How do you, how do you do that and still

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live a life and function as a, as a human being and parent and, and go and, you know, like it was

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just, so that for me was not a viable option. I tried the couch for about three, three and a half

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months. I sat on the couch and I watched everything that there was on Netflix, I think. And I thought,

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okay, well, this is, this is not sustainable. I don't want to be, you know, like I said, I was 34

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and the idea of getting to 68, you know, another 34 years, sitting on the couch, being this, you

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know, shell of a human, taking my meds and trying to avoid my triggers and my kids kissing me on the

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cheek to, you know, go to school and me really not being present and engaged in my life. That was

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not an option. I was like, okay, we need a plan B. And the medical model didn't have a plan B. So I

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had to look elsewhere. And so you found NLP, neuro-linguistic programming. Can you tell me a

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little bit about what that is and when it should be used? I'll do my best. So NLP, as you said,

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neuro-linguistic programming. So neuro being mind, linguistic being language and programming,

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essentially being the structures and systems and rules that we have in our minds for our lives.

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It's old. It's not as new as people think. It's been around, essentially was born out of the

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positive psychology movement, roughly, you know, late sixties, seventies. So even though I don't

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feel like that was long ago, that was really long ago, sort of 60, 70 years ago. So it's not a new

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thing. My perspective is that NLP is a framework of philosophies and processes together that allow

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for new ways of thinking. And, you know, we're all programmed to some extent where we're programmed

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by our childhood experiences, the way that we were raised, the values instilled in us by our parents,

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you know, all those influences in childhood and teenage years and our experiences as an adult and

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so on and so forth. All of that is so-called, you know, inverted commas programming. So what we're

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doing with NLP is being able to look at those things and the way we think and how we perceive

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the world and what we believe and all that stuff and, and sort of take a step back from it rather

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than just living it, take a step back and be objective about it and become the observer of

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those things. And then from that point, you can pick and choose what is useful for you, what you'd

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like to keep in terms of that programming. So like I said, you know, beliefs and experiences and

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stories and values and all of that, what's useful, what's helping you, what's valuable,

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what do you want to hold onto and keep and what in that mix of things is unhelpful or

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unresourceful? What would you like to change? So for example, if you're running a business,

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like myself, right? So you're running a small business and you want to be successful and we

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want to make money and we want to pay the bills and all the things, right? But if I've got a belief

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that says money is the root of all evil and all rich people are dickheads, I'm going to inherently

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sabotage my own success and wealth creation because I don't want to be one of those rich people,

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right? If that's what I think rich people are, then I'm going to quite subconsciously

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obstruct my own success because I don't want to be that, right? So I will be on the face of it,

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you know, working really hard, doing all the things, you know, all the stuff that's involved

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in a business. And at the same time, you know, really working against myself in ways that I

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probably don't even imagine. And I'm not consciously aware of because at a deep, deep level,

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I think that people that are super wealthy are really selfish and I want to be selfish, right?

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So when you have a belief or programming that's actually inhibiting you from reaching your goals

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or making progress in any direction, you may not be aware of it. And NLP is a way to identify those

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things and then reprogram them, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I feel like that kind of leads

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on to what I was going to ask next, which was how can NLP be used to detect trauma through

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text or speech? So when you're giving that example, how is it used to... In terms of trauma

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specifically? Well, it doesn't have to be, but yeah, let's run with trauma. So because of the

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the L in NLP, the linguistics, there's a lot of clues in language that a seasoned NLP practitioner

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or master practitioner can, as you said, detect in language. So our way of communicating often

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reveals what is going on at a subconscious level. For example, a non-trauma example,

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there are people that frequently use the word sorry. You might know one of these sorry people.

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Oh, yeah. No, sorry about that. Sorry for this. Sorry. Oh, they bump. Like if you bump into them,

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they'll say sorry. They say, oh, sorry. And you're like, I hit you. It's my sorry. Like, you know,

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like, and it's a bit of a default statement for them. Right. So they're sorry about everything.

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They're sorry for everybody. There's a lot of sorry. You're going to notice this now after you

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listen to this, you're going to be walking around going, that's one of those sorry people.

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I am guilty of doing that on the odd occasion. Yeah. Oh, look. And if you're sorry because,

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you know, you are apologizing for an action or a behavior or, you know, there's nothing wrong with

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saying sorry when you're genuinely sorry, but there are people with certain patterns that

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there's a distinct overuse. And what I, you know, as I said now with 10 years of experience,

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what I understand that to be or can be, obviously everyone's different, but often is reflective of

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self-worth issues. And they're actually sorry for existing. That's why they say sorry for everything,

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because they have some deep stuff going on about their place in the world and being deserving of

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their place in the world. And that can come from, you know, a whole bunch of reasons that people get

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to that point. They may have been through a family violence situation. They may have had a, you know,

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a childhood experience that was very minimizing and demeaning of their value. Right. So there's

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lots of reasons that people can come to this. And I would never want to predict, you know, what causes

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that. And part of what I do is work and investigate to find that root cause. But the language, coming

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back to the point, is identifying or conveying information and clues. So sometimes I think of

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myself as like a linguistic detective about what's really going on underneath. So in the context of

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trauma, there are ways that people will speak about themselves, words that they may use. It's

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generally rather than specific words. It's an overall way of communicating that can indicate to

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me that they've been through something significant. And I say significant because trauma is,

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it's a big bucket with lots of stuff in it. Right. If you're three years old and you drop your lollipop

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in a puddle when you're three, that's trauma. Right. That's traumatic. You're like, I dropped my ice

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cream. I dropped my lollipop. Like that's, you know, people ask me, well, what is trauma? I'm like,

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basically, if, if it, if you think it was traumatic, it's trauma. Like that's, you know, there's no

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competition in trauma. I do tend to see that in, in some spaces where people are, you know, there's a

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bit of comparison artists and it can go both ways. Like, it doesn't need to be like that. No. And

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it's, it's really, it's, nobody benefits from that. Like it's bad for everybody to either minimize

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your own traumatic experience or, you know, experience of something, uh, because it wasn't as

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bad as, you know, something catastrophic. It's not good for you, for you as a person to, to diminish

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your own experience. That doesn't help you. It doesn't help you move on. It doesn't help you

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acknowledge it. It doesn't help you heal. And conversely, to have someone say, Oh, well, you

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know, what you went through, isn't that bad. At least you didn't have, you know, X and they sort

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of name something dramatic. Like it doesn't help anybody to be in that comparison space. The fact

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is if someone experienced something traumatic, whether it's dropping a lollipop in a puddle or

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losing mates, uh, on a, on a, you know, uh, military exercise, you know, like a deployment,

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it's all trauma. And the truth is that your body and your nervous system and your amygdala and

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all of that really doesn't know the difference. It responds the same way. So, you know, our nervous

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system doesn't know the difference between running from a saber tooth tiger to your boss yelling at

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you because your thing that you needed to hand in is late. You know, your project isn't done.

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Your nervous system doesn't know the difference. It responds the same way.

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And so I guess from there, are there any sort of ethical considerations that need to be taken

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into account when practicing NLP, like for someone that's looking for an NLP practitioner?

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Yeah, lots. So I think I like an NLP or really any other modality, you know, whether it's hypnosis or

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Reiki or whatever it is, it's, it's a tool in a toolkit, uh, in the same way a tradie has,

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you know, a hammer and a spanner and you know, their tools. I can hand a hammer to one person

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and they can build a house with it or use it to contribute to building a house. They probably

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need more or I can hand a hammer to somebody else and they'll knock somebody else's block off.

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So, but it's not the hammer's fault, right? So tools are tools that are used to build a

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house. So tools are about how they utilized what intention you have when utilizing them.

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NLP copped a bad rap, you know, in the eighties and nineties a little bit because people were

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using it predominantly in sales. So, you know, car salesmen and real estate, you know, a lot of them

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got, uh, you know, went and did a short course in, in NLP to utilize language with the intention

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of manipulating people to make purchases, right? Again, it's not the hammer's fault, right?

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Correct. Yeah.

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So I would, I would implore any NLP practitioner at any level. So there's this practitioner level,

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there's master practitioner, and then there's a trainer level, regardless of your, you know,

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your level of training or your experience with NLP as a, as a practitioner, I would implore you to

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always return to, uh, the intention and really stay conscious of what it is that you're trying

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to achieve and, uh, do one of the things that we teach in NLP training is an ecology check.

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So ecology check means, is it good for, is it good for you as in the client, is it good for those

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around you and is it good for the greater good? And so keeping that in mind, uh, when utilizing

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these tools and in terms of somebody who is seeking to work with, uh, and potentially looking

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outside of that sort of psychology box for some support around trauma or mental health, and they're

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considering working with someone who is trained in NLP. I would look at a few things, uh, where

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did they do their training and is it a reputable, you know, training provider? Are they accredited

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with any third party, um, go advisory bodies or governing bodies? So in Australia, we've got the

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NLPAA, so the NLP Association of Australia. In the U S there's the ABNLP, the American board of NLP,

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and there's, uh, so international, you know, bodies that provide ongoing trainings and upskilling.

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And, you know, um, there's a level of, I think, integrity that has to be maintained to continue

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to be registered with those bodies. So that's something to have a look at, uh, ask them some

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questions like how long was their NLP training? They done a weekend? Have they done, you know,

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a week? Have they done months? Have they, you know, and how long have they been utilizing it?

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Like all the things that you would potentially ask, you know, a mechanic about your car, you know,

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how long have you been a mechanic? Did you go to, you know, TAFE for that? Like, you know, how to,

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oh, I just, my dad showed me a few things in the back shed. Um, okay. So if they're the NLP

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equivalent of like, you know, oh, I read a book on it, so now I think I can do it.

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Okay. I might go and talk to a couple of other NLP practitioners, do your due diligence and,

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and ask for, uh, you know, testimonials or referrals or, you know, can I speak to someone

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that you've already worked with that got a good result? Maybe if they don't have those freely

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available and if it's, if you give it a go and they're not the right fit, uh, again, it's not

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the hammer. It's feel free to go and seek out a second or third or fourth opinion. And the,

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and I always give an example of lollies. There are, you know, sometimes you have to try several to

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find one that you really like. Yeah. I usually talk about Brussels sprouts and mushrooms, right?

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Sometimes you're not to realise that it's not for you, but you've, but you've got to try it,

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right? You, as soon as you go, you give it a go and you go, Ooh, no, that's not for me.

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That's not for me. You've got to taste it to find out. Right. Well, we're almost at the end of our

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time. So do you have any social media links or websites that you'd like to tell us about any

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packages that you run? Yeah, sure. Thanks, Quinn. Yeah. So look, the quickest way, easiest way to

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find me is to either just, you know, Google Lisa Westgate, search me on Spotify and YouTube.

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The Epiphanish podcast is on YouTube. If you're a visual person and you'd like to, uh, look at me,

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uh, alternatively, you can listen to it, uh, audio only on all the usual podcast places, Spotify and

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Apple podcasts and all that. The website is just Lisa Westgate.com. So, uh, and there's links to

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website, uh, to the podcast and courses is a course at the moment about language, as you might have

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guessed, I'm a bit of a language buff. So there's a course on, uh, mining your language and some

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words that you may consider releasing from your vocabulary and some words you might want to adopt

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instead. So the website is a good place to, uh, to check out Lisa Westgate.com, uh, and feel free

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to stalk me on socials, uh, and send me a DM and connect. I do work with, with individuals. I, I,

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I do sessions with people and I also have a business to business offering for people that are, um,

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running a business and they're looking for some, some clarity and, uh, consistency in their

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communications in their business as well, because I am a scatterbrained neurodivergent woman and I

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like to keep busy. So I have a few hats on. Perfect. Oh, well, thank you so much for joining us.

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If anyone wants to check out Lisa Westgate.com and, um, thank you again. It's been a real pleasure.

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I'm Quinn Carnegie and I hope you enjoy this week's episode of Manifestation, Motivation and

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Passion. I'm so thrilled you chose to spend time listening and would be even more grateful if you

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left a positive review and if you found value, no doubt your family and friends will too. I'd love

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it if you share it with them. Thanks again.