1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,600 Welcome to Manifestation, Motivation and Passion. If you're looking to transform your life, 2 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:16,880 this is the podcast for you. It's all about improving yourself on the inside to see transformation 3 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:24,240 on the outside. I look at how to find and improve motivation and manifest lasting changes. 4 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:30,960 Thank you so much for joining me today. This evening we have Leisha Monson joining us, 5 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:36,800 who has a Masters in Psychotherapy and Counselling and postgraduate degree in Psychology and 6 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:43,440 extensive experience with teaching sexuality and gender. Welcome, thank you for chatting 7 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:50,320 with us this evening. Thank you for having me. No problem. So jumping straight into it, 8 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:55,680 on your website you mention language matters and gender basics for adults. What do you 9 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,360 mean by that? So when we're talking about gender, what I'm finding when I'm talking 10 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:04,200 to adults, particularly parents and school teachers, is that there's a lot of confusion 11 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:10,960 about what gender is and so a lot of confusion about the correct words to use, what pronouns 12 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:16,960 to use when talking to young people. And I think when it comes to gender and diversity 13 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:22,680 and sexuality, it's one of the areas where young people are possibly more educated than 14 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:28,680 their parents in because of the internet and because of the, I guess, the things that they're 15 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,200 involved in, that they have more knowledge than their parents and their teachers think. 16 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:38,720 So one of the workshops that I do is about just language of diversity and just describes 17 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:45,680 all of the terms of gender, what does transgender mean, what does non-binary mean and all of 18 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:50,360 that stuff. So when I say language matters, it's really important for young people, for 19 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,440 instance, that might be trans or that they are, the pronouns are being used correctly. 20 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,440 So it talks about the importance of language, the importance of using inclusive language 21 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:08,160 and how, I talk about the effect that that has on young people and how easy it is really 22 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,200 to make a big difference in young people's life by using the correct language. And like 23 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,360 I said, a lot of older people are confused about that. So it's just, it's a workshop 24 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,760 covering the basics of that information. 25 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,560 And so you mentioned pronouns. Can you talk a little bit more about that? 26 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,880 Well, pronouns are just, you know, that we all use pronouns. So it's he, she, they, and 27 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:34,400 people get very confused about how can we possibly use, for instance, the term they 28 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,880 for a singular person. So people are confused about that and they're uncomfortable and they're, 29 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,520 you know, young people or anyone really doesn't have to be a young person, but a lot of the 30 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:49,640 work I do is with young people. So they may not identify as male or female. They may identify 31 00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:57,520 as non-binary. So they may prefer a pronoun that is they, that is neither he or she. So 32 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,160 it's about just how to use that pronoun. You know, you can't use it for one person, but 33 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:09,240 the fact is you can. And it's just about educating people on that. You know, so rather than say 34 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:14,400 went to the shop, you would say they went to the shop, something like that. Just getting 35 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:20,480 people familiar with the correct pronouns to use for people that may be trans or non-binary 36 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,040 and also talk about how important that is and the impact that has on a person's sense 37 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,640 of self and wellbeing as well. 38 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:32,800 Now I guess too, it's about having a really open conversation with that person to know 39 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,040 what they are comfortable with as well. 40 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:40,200 Absolutely. I think that's a great point to make too, that we can't assume that by the 41 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:45,880 way that somebody looks what their pronoun is going to be, or if there's uncertainty, 42 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,640 yet the best way for it is to ask to have that open conversation. Do you have a preferred 43 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:55,400 pronoun? I just noticed Instagram actually has just come up with a section on the bio 44 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:00,240 for pronouns where people can put their pronouns on their profile. 45 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,120 Oh wow. That's definitely moving with the times. That's good to say. 46 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:10,240 Yes. I was just going to say too, it's a really great move forward to normalise that, also 47 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,560 to normalise that for everyone, not just people that are trans or non-binary, for everyone 48 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:21,640 to normalise putting our pronouns out there. So for instance, me, I identify as female, 49 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:27,080 you know, my gender expression is that I look like a female, but for me then it might be 50 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,640 obvious to some people that they would refer to me as she or her. I think it's a great 51 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:37,440 thing for people that may appear obvious, also to have the pronouns in their bio or 52 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,440 things like that too. So that it's normalising that it's a question that we ask everyone 53 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,360 or that we just don't assume, but not to make assumptions. 54 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:50,640 Yeah, absolutely. And I think I saw something on your website that you also deal with pregnancy 55 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:51,640 related issues. 56 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:57,880 Yeah. So one part of my business is that I do education. So I do education work at school, 57 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:03,240 parents, corporate, and I also do individual therapy and couples therapy. So most of my 58 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,960 clients are women. So I do a lot of work in the area of women's health and relationship 59 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:13,720 and also sexuality. So women's health stuff I do is a lot to do with pregnancy, high risk 60 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,680 pregnancy particularly, or just the challenges that people have trying to get pregnant during 61 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,680 pregnancies and even the transition after pregnancy as well. 62 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,880 Okay. And something that's got me really fired up this week, we had the Craig McLaughlin 63 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:35,080 interview where he said, in this post Weinstein hashtag me too world, I can't win. Now that 64 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:41,280 to me is pissing off everybody that has either been sexually abused or raped in the film 65 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:45,880 and television industry. You've got other things going on in the media as well at the 66 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:52,240 moment with the Brittany Higgins. We've got Weinstein recently and Epstein. Something 67 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:57,640 that I have personal experience with, for me, I feel if we start linking all the dots, 68 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:04,440 then we will have perhaps an even bigger outpouring of people that have been drugged and sexually 69 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:10,920 abused or raped. So when we're talking about consent, I know that there is a focus on the 70 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:17,160 young people, but what can we do for those people that are of an older generation that 71 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,080 perhaps just aren't getting it yet? 72 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:26,000 Yeah, I think it is. I mean, I haven't watched the Craig McLaughlin interview myself, but 73 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,560 I have read some commentary on it. And I think that a lot of people are feeling a similar 74 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,640 way to you, what you're saying that's been quite triggering for them, that his commentary 75 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:40,400 was quite dismissive. And when we hear people saying things like, I can't win in this post 76 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:46,000 Me Too movement, it really does dismiss the seriousness of the nature of sexual assault. 77 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:52,320 And the only people really that are losing in the post Me Too world are people that are 78 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:58,720 sexually assaulted by other people, which is good. This is a good thing. And for people 79 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:04,200 that aren't particularly concerned with their behavior has been of an abusive nature, I 80 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,640 don't think those people are particularly worried. But yeah, I think through the idea, 81 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:15,320 there's been a lot of conversation about consent. And while I do a lot of work for 82 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,560 talking about consent with young people, the education that I actually do is talking about 83 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:24,780 consent with adults, older people, because it is about challenging these ideas of consent. 84 00:07:24,780 --> 00:07:29,880 What is it that we're talking about when we're talking about consent? And consent is very 85 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:35,100 simple. People are making it very complicated. You know, we all have to remember that we're 86 00:07:35,100 --> 00:07:39,680 not lawyers. When it comes to consent, there are people that are specific that do that 87 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,880 job. But when we're thinking about consent, I think we really just need to get down to 88 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:49,800 the basics of human interaction. I don't think that it is really true or fair to say 89 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,320 that men are particularly confused about consent. I don't think there's anything particularly 90 00:07:54,320 --> 00:08:01,080 confusing about it. I think that it's quite clear that you don't, you know, have sex 91 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,680 with someone that doesn't want to have sex with you, or that you don't touch somebody 92 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,520 that doesn't want to be touched. So the basics of consent are about respect and human 93 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:16,160 decency. We get into some complex situations about consent when we start to get into, 94 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,720 you know, what we would call the nitty-gritty of that stuff. And there are some basics that 95 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,400 we talk about with consent, which are, you know, there are some situations which may 96 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,040 be called gray areas. But really, when we're talking about consent, what we really want 97 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:33,640 to be the message to be is that what we're looking for is an agreement between two people, 98 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:39,840 an enthusiastic agreement between two people that consent to engaging in sexual relationship 99 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,480 with each other. And, you know, that can't happen if one person is passed out, if one 100 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,120 person is drugged, if one person is significantly younger than the other person. That can't 101 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:53,320 exist. So I think when we have this idea of it being so confusing, I think that really 102 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,960 speaks to, particularly with the older generation, like you're referring to, it speaks to the 103 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:03,680 entitlement and the power differential of particularly, I want to say, older, you know, 104 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:07,960 white older men perhaps that have gotten away with things for quite a long time or at a 105 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,840 time where it was different with sexual harassment in the workplace. 106 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:19,000 I think you just touched on a key point is times when it was different. And a time going 107 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:25,160 back, you know, a couple of generations where grandmother's era, you were seen and not heard. 108 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:32,040 It was a very patriarchal. Well, I still believe it still is, but a very patriarchal society 109 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:38,520 built by men for men. So it's trying to target that kind of perhaps generation. And look, 110 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,320 I'm aware that it happens, you know, across the board. 111 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:47,120 And education is the key. I think it's about bringing these discussions into light. And, 112 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,800 you know, when someone says, I can't win, I mean, what is it? What is it that you're 113 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,480 trying to win? You know, are you now going to be held accountable for your actions? 114 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,800 Absolutely. May you now need to consider whether or not a woman wants to be touched or whistled 115 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:03,760 at or approached or have comments made about her appearance? Yeah, actually, you will. 116 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:08,560 Will I need to adjust my behavior? Absolutely. Probably. If you are used to someone that's 117 00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:13,240 particularly not being held accountable for your actions, which can often happen for men 118 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:19,240 in powerful positions. Yeah, you're going to have to adjust. That's absolutely right. 119 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,160 So yeah, education is key. Discussions are key. 120 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,520 You mentioned before like a strong yes, but it doesn't always need to be verbal like 121 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:35,560 it can be implied. So if you were, I guess, flirting with someone and perhaps it had evolved 122 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:38,880 to kissing, could that be taken as implied consent? 123 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,200 Yeah, I mean, if consent is, I think rather than using the word implied, but one person 124 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,440 can imply something that obviously, you know, from someone else's behavior may not exist 125 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:52,880 in the confusion there. So what we'd want to go for is enthusiastic and obvious consent. 126 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:58,520 Which doesn't need to, you know, be expressed in the words. I think, for instance, if two 127 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:04,320 people are involved in the actions that are progressing the interactions, then yes, they're 128 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,240 obvious. If it's one person is frozen and doing nothing and the other person is evolving 129 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:13,680 it, then that's different. So if you've got two people actively involved in obvious ways 130 00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:19,920 of progression of an activity, yeah, absolutely, that would be considered consent by both people. 131 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:25,640 And so I know a lot of it is around education, but what about for those who have already 132 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:31,200 been in the position of, okay, well, this didn't work for me the way that I would have 133 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:37,600 liked. How can I, you know, is there something on a personal level that people can do to, 134 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,080 I don't know, I guess, protect themselves more? 135 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:46,160 Do you mean after perhaps after an assault or do you think that is a triggering, a triggering 136 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:47,160 old wound? 137 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:52,680 Well, just, I guess, I don't mean so much as a trigger, although it could be that too, 138 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:58,200 but you know, when you talk with clients, do you have people that you think, okay, well, 139 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,680 perhaps you were too silent, perhaps you, you know, could have been more vocal about 140 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:03,680 saying no. 141 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:07,360 Look, it's really complicated. I think that you get something really important that, you 142 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:12,440 know, the effects of a sexual assault are really basic and ongoing. And I think it's 143 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,400 really natural for people that have been in that position, I have been taken advantage 144 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:21,520 of to assume that they've done something wrong. You'll just assume it's a natural status 145 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,400 for a lot of women, obviously, to say, oh, I should have done this and I should have 146 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:30,120 done that. But we very much would move away from that victim blaming type or from that 147 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:36,520 sub blaming type of narrative, which exists and is actually really damaging. I think what 148 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:41,240 the process would be, and of course, that type of thinking and the assault itself or 149 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,960 being taken advantage of can absolutely affect all interactions moving forward and it can 150 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,480 blur boundaries and can make it really hard for people to trust themselves in relationships 151 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,040 and you know, the effects can go on and on. So what I would work with people in doing 152 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:01,840 is to really help them to clarify that situation and to really put back their power in it and 153 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:07,680 to understand what actually happened and to work with it and with the narrative than one 154 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:16,320 where you were to blame in any way. Also, if it is a situation where it may not have 155 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:22,080 been a sexual assault but you just perhaps were in a sexual encounter that you perhaps 156 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,840 didn't really want to be in but it wasn't such an assault but you just didn't feel good 157 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:31,920 about it, then absolutely we could work on ways for people to be more assertive and the 158 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:37,240 training I do in consent as well as how to negotiate that, what it's like, what are ways 159 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,440 that I can use my voice, what are the different things that I can say or do and how do I ask 160 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:47,760 for it with my voice. How do I check in with partners, that's what I do when I work with 161 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,040 young people or anyone that's in the same place. Here are some phrases that you can 162 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:56,400 use to check in with the other person, like is this okay with you, should we keep going, 163 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:02,400 would you like me to stop, things like that. So there's two sides to that, it's about 164 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,600 helping someone find their power again and also if it's just being more assertive in 165 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,360 a relationship that if that's what they want to be doing and how to voice their concerns 166 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,440 or to voice their desires even, that's absolutely something I would work with someone to do. 167 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,520 Well thank you, you've certainly given us a lot to think about. If people are wanting 168 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,560 to get in contact with you, how would they do so? 169 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:32,960 Yeah, so you can look at my website on www.leashamonth.com or just check out the website and my email 170 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,960 and contact phone number on there and yeah, we'd love to hear from people. 171 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:45,520 I'm Quinn Carnegie and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Manifestation, Motivation 172 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:51,640 and Passion. I'm so thrilled you chose to spend time listening and would be even more 173 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:57,240 grateful if you left a positive review. And if you found value, no doubt your family and 174 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:25,240 friends will too. I'd love it if you share it with them. Thanks again.