Welcome to Manifestation, Motivation and Passion. If you're looking to transform your life,
this is the podcast for you. It's all about improving yourself on the inside to see transformation
on the outside. I look at how to find and improve motivation and manifest lasting changes.
Thank you so much for joining me today. This evening we have Leisha Monson joining us,
who has a Masters in Psychotherapy and Counselling and postgraduate degree in Psychology and
extensive experience with teaching sexuality and gender. Welcome, thank you for chatting
with us this evening. Thank you for having me. No problem. So jumping straight into it,
on your website you mention language matters and gender basics for adults. What do you
mean by that? So when we're talking about gender, what I'm finding when I'm talking
to adults, particularly parents and school teachers, is that there's a lot of confusion
about what gender is and so a lot of confusion about the correct words to use, what pronouns
to use when talking to young people. And I think when it comes to gender and diversity
and sexuality, it's one of the areas where young people are possibly more educated than
their parents in because of the internet and because of the, I guess, the things that they're
involved in, that they have more knowledge than their parents and their teachers think.
So one of the workshops that I do is about just language of diversity and just describes
all of the terms of gender, what does transgender mean, what does non-binary mean and all of
that stuff. So when I say language matters, it's really important for young people, for
instance, that might be trans or that they are, the pronouns are being used correctly.
So it talks about the importance of language, the importance of using inclusive language
and how, I talk about the effect that that has on young people and how easy it is really
to make a big difference in young people's life by using the correct language. And like
I said, a lot of older people are confused about that. So it's just, it's a workshop
covering the basics of that information.
And so you mentioned pronouns. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Well, pronouns are just, you know, that we all use pronouns. So it's he, she, they, and
people get very confused about how can we possibly use, for instance, the term they
for a singular person. So people are confused about that and they're uncomfortable and they're,
you know, young people or anyone really doesn't have to be a young person, but a lot of the
work I do is with young people. So they may not identify as male or female. They may identify
as non-binary. So they may prefer a pronoun that is they, that is neither he or she. So
it's about just how to use that pronoun. You know, you can't use it for one person, but
the fact is you can. And it's just about educating people on that. You know, so rather than say
went to the shop, you would say they went to the shop, something like that. Just getting
people familiar with the correct pronouns to use for people that may be trans or non-binary
and also talk about how important that is and the impact that has on a person's sense
of self and wellbeing as well.
Now I guess too, it's about having a really open conversation with that person to know
what they are comfortable with as well.
Absolutely. I think that's a great point to make too, that we can't assume that by the
way that somebody looks what their pronoun is going to be, or if there's uncertainty,
yet the best way for it is to ask to have that open conversation. Do you have a preferred
pronoun? I just noticed Instagram actually has just come up with a section on the bio
for pronouns where people can put their pronouns on their profile.
Oh wow. That's definitely moving with the times. That's good to say.
Yes. I was just going to say too, it's a really great move forward to normalise that, also
to normalise that for everyone, not just people that are trans or non-binary, for everyone
to normalise putting our pronouns out there. So for instance, me, I identify as female,
you know, my gender expression is that I look like a female, but for me then it might be
obvious to some people that they would refer to me as she or her. I think it's a great
thing for people that may appear obvious, also to have the pronouns in their bio or
things like that too. So that it's normalising that it's a question that we ask everyone
or that we just don't assume, but not to make assumptions.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think I saw something on your website that you also deal with pregnancy
related issues.
Yeah. So one part of my business is that I do education. So I do education work at school,
parents, corporate, and I also do individual therapy and couples therapy. So most of my
clients are women. So I do a lot of work in the area of women's health and relationship
and also sexuality. So women's health stuff I do is a lot to do with pregnancy, high risk
pregnancy particularly, or just the challenges that people have trying to get pregnant during
pregnancies and even the transition after pregnancy as well.
Okay. And something that's got me really fired up this week, we had the Craig McLaughlin
interview where he said, in this post Weinstein hashtag me too world, I can't win. Now that
to me is pissing off everybody that has either been sexually abused or raped in the film
and television industry. You've got other things going on in the media as well at the
moment with the Brittany Higgins. We've got Weinstein recently and Epstein. Something
that I have personal experience with, for me, I feel if we start linking all the dots,
then we will have perhaps an even bigger outpouring of people that have been drugged and sexually
abused or raped. So when we're talking about consent, I know that there is a focus on the
young people, but what can we do for those people that are of an older generation that
perhaps just aren't getting it yet?
Yeah, I think it is. I mean, I haven't watched the Craig McLaughlin interview myself, but
I have read some commentary on it. And I think that a lot of people are feeling a similar
way to you, what you're saying that's been quite triggering for them, that his commentary
was quite dismissive. And when we hear people saying things like, I can't win in this post
Me Too movement, it really does dismiss the seriousness of the nature of sexual assault.
And the only people really that are losing in the post Me Too world are people that are
sexually assaulted by other people, which is good. This is a good thing. And for people
that aren't particularly concerned with their behavior has been of an abusive nature, I
don't think those people are particularly worried. But yeah, I think through the idea,
there's been a lot of conversation about consent. And while I do a lot of work for
talking about consent with young people, the education that I actually do is talking about
consent with adults, older people, because it is about challenging these ideas of consent.
What is it that we're talking about when we're talking about consent? And consent is very
simple. People are making it very complicated. You know, we all have to remember that we're
not lawyers. When it comes to consent, there are people that are specific that do that
job. But when we're thinking about consent, I think we really just need to get down to
the basics of human interaction. I don't think that it is really true or fair to say
that men are particularly confused about consent. I don't think there's anything particularly
confusing about it. I think that it's quite clear that you don't, you know, have sex
with someone that doesn't want to have sex with you, or that you don't touch somebody
that doesn't want to be touched. So the basics of consent are about respect and human
decency. We get into some complex situations about consent when we start to get into,
you know, what we would call the nitty-gritty of that stuff. And there are some basics that
we talk about with consent, which are, you know, there are some situations which may
be called gray areas. But really, when we're talking about consent, what we really want
to be the message to be is that what we're looking for is an agreement between two people,
an enthusiastic agreement between two people that consent to engaging in sexual relationship
with each other. And, you know, that can't happen if one person is passed out, if one
person is drugged, if one person is significantly younger than the other person. That can't
exist. So I think when we have this idea of it being so confusing, I think that really
speaks to, particularly with the older generation, like you're referring to, it speaks to the
entitlement and the power differential of particularly, I want to say, older, you know,
white older men perhaps that have gotten away with things for quite a long time or at a
time where it was different with sexual harassment in the workplace.
I think you just touched on a key point is times when it was different. And a time going
back, you know, a couple of generations where grandmother's era, you were seen and not heard.
It was a very patriarchal. Well, I still believe it still is, but a very patriarchal society
built by men for men. So it's trying to target that kind of perhaps generation. And look,
I'm aware that it happens, you know, across the board.
And education is the key. I think it's about bringing these discussions into light. And,
you know, when someone says, I can't win, I mean, what is it? What is it that you're
trying to win? You know, are you now going to be held accountable for your actions?
Absolutely. May you now need to consider whether or not a woman wants to be touched or whistled
at or approached or have comments made about her appearance? Yeah, actually, you will.
Will I need to adjust my behavior? Absolutely. Probably. If you are used to someone that's
particularly not being held accountable for your actions, which can often happen for men
in powerful positions. Yeah, you're going to have to adjust. That's absolutely right.
So yeah, education is key. Discussions are key.
You mentioned before like a strong yes, but it doesn't always need to be verbal like
it can be implied. So if you were, I guess, flirting with someone and perhaps it had evolved
to kissing, could that be taken as implied consent?
Yeah, I mean, if consent is, I think rather than using the word implied, but one person
can imply something that obviously, you know, from someone else's behavior may not exist
in the confusion there. So what we'd want to go for is enthusiastic and obvious consent.
Which doesn't need to, you know, be expressed in the words. I think, for instance, if two
people are involved in the actions that are progressing the interactions, then yes, they're
obvious. If it's one person is frozen and doing nothing and the other person is evolving
it, then that's different. So if you've got two people actively involved in obvious ways
of progression of an activity, yeah, absolutely, that would be considered consent by both people.
And so I know a lot of it is around education, but what about for those who have already
been in the position of, okay, well, this didn't work for me the way that I would have
liked. How can I, you know, is there something on a personal level that people can do to,
I don't know, I guess, protect themselves more?
Do you mean after perhaps after an assault or do you think that is a triggering, a triggering
old wound?
Well, just, I guess, I don't mean so much as a trigger, although it could be that too,
but you know, when you talk with clients, do you have people that you think, okay, well,
perhaps you were too silent, perhaps you, you know, could have been more vocal about
saying no.
Look, it's really complicated. I think that you get something really important that, you
know, the effects of a sexual assault are really basic and ongoing. And I think it's
really natural for people that have been in that position, I have been taken advantage
of to assume that they've done something wrong. You'll just assume it's a natural status
for a lot of women, obviously, to say, oh, I should have done this and I should have
done that. But we very much would move away from that victim blaming type or from that
sub blaming type of narrative, which exists and is actually really damaging. I think what
the process would be, and of course, that type of thinking and the assault itself or
being taken advantage of can absolutely affect all interactions moving forward and it can
blur boundaries and can make it really hard for people to trust themselves in relationships
and you know, the effects can go on and on. So what I would work with people in doing
is to really help them to clarify that situation and to really put back their power in it and
to understand what actually happened and to work with it and with the narrative than one
where you were to blame in any way. Also, if it is a situation where it may not have
been a sexual assault but you just perhaps were in a sexual encounter that you perhaps
didn't really want to be in but it wasn't such an assault but you just didn't feel good
about it, then absolutely we could work on ways for people to be more assertive and the
training I do in consent as well as how to negotiate that, what it's like, what are ways
that I can use my voice, what are the different things that I can say or do and how do I ask
for it with my voice. How do I check in with partners, that's what I do when I work with
young people or anyone that's in the same place. Here are some phrases that you can
use to check in with the other person, like is this okay with you, should we keep going,
would you like me to stop, things like that. So there's two sides to that, it's about
helping someone find their power again and also if it's just being more assertive in
a relationship that if that's what they want to be doing and how to voice their concerns
or to voice their desires even, that's absolutely something I would work with someone to do.
Well thank you, you've certainly given us a lot to think about. If people are wanting
to get in contact with you, how would they do so?
Yeah, so you can look at my website on www.leashamonth.com or just check out the website and my email
and contact phone number on there and yeah, we'd love to hear from people.
I'm Quinn Carnegie and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Manifestation, Motivation
and Passion. I'm so thrilled you chose to spend time listening and would be even more
grateful if you left a positive review. And if you found value, no doubt your family and
friends will too. I'd love it if you share it with them. Thanks again.