Welcome back to the Interior Design Podcast.
I'm your host, Hayley Roy, and today's episode
is coming to you from the stunning Solus showroom
at Clerkenwell Design Week. A big thank you to
Joe Burley from Solus for making this recording
possible. We're so grateful to be surrounded
by such inspiring materials and brilliant design
energy. Our guest today is someone who is truly
changing the way we think about interiors. TEDx
speaker and founder of Smart Style Interiors,
Phoebe Oldry. Phoebe, welcome. Oh, thank you
so much. That's very kind of you to say that
about me. Phoebe, before we dive in, I'd like
to share with our community something that you've
taught me that I learned from you. Did you know
that studies have shown cluttered environments
can raise cortisol levels and even mimic PTSD
symptoms? It's a powerful reminder of how our
homes impact our mental health and your work
speaks directly to that, doesn't it? Yeah, I
found that fact when I read it really blew my
mind because... Clutter, we always think of it
as a small thing. And I knew firsthand that I'd
seen the effect of clutter on mental health as
my mother, near the end of her life, had become
a bit of a hoarder. And the effect that basically
the symbiotic relationship between the fact that
as her mental health deteriorated, the ability
to stay on top of her home and her stuff and
what possessions meant, and then... That in itself
exacerbated the problem of mental health. So
there was one point of it which was there was
an element of a personal take on it. There's
a lot of blog posts and magazine articles out
there which always just go, oh, studies say.
And I went, well, what is this study of which
you speak? And so I went and looked it up. And
I've got the name here. So it was done by UCLA.
And they actually have a department called the
Center of Everyday Lives of Families, which is
a bizarre. department for a university to have
and they basically studied 32 families based
in the LA area and they went and looked at all
aspects of their life within their home and there
was many things that came up on it one of it
was like how we'd use kitchens differently and
how spaces are used but part of that study was
they looked at how people reacted to clutter
in their homes and what they would do is they'd
follow these people around where they talked
about their home and they would actually take
a swab from inside their mouth that they discussed
it and they would see literally the spike in
cortisol in these people when they sort of said
oh no don't look at that pile of laundry or don't
you know don't look at bob's garage And when
you see the photos in a book, because it was
released as a book called Life at Home in the
21st Century, they are overwhelming, the amount
of stuff these houses have, garages up high.
And interestingly, they said it was more that
women actually had a higher spike in their cortisol
due to these piles of clutter. I think sometimes
we underestimate what clutter is or how an effect
it can have because it seems so trivial and it
seems like we're all into the home edit and does
clutter mean we need our cereal boxed and packaged
with individual labels on it? But it means we
just need spaces that work better for people.
And looking at it on a design level, you can
approach it from many different levels. But managing
to make sure people's homes are clutter -free.
makes a huge difference to how people can live
in their home, how people mentally feel in their
home. Yeah, huge. I'm obsessively tidy and very
messy at the same time, so I create the mess.
If it's my mess, it's fine, but if it's somebody
else's mess, ooh! Yeah, and it's... Isn't that
weird? It is really weird. I find I sometimes...
It's terrible to say, but if I go round to some
homes and they're overly full of stuff... it
is that hard thing is when you begin to know
what difference it can make you'll be like oh
god I want to tell you just for them just for
them and you're going no no don't that's weird.
Okay so let's start with the common frustrations
that we all face. Homes that look great on Pinterest
or Instagram but don't actually work day -to
-day life. What do you think are the most common
design mistakes people make when trying to balance
style and function? Well it matters where about
when we say people whether we're talking about
designers approaching a design but with regular
people I think it's normally an easy one to answer
I think people don't see the connection between
how a home works and what a home looks like and
it's often they don't see the power of what design
is or that designs for them and so I call it
pretty awful design where it looks great but
it doesn't function and they've forgotten to
look at themselves first who they are how they
like to work you know do they like cooking do
they like this do they like the other they've
forgotten to look at really putting function
first and but they've gone straight in for the
pretty and then they've got a table which they
love, but it's too big for the space, and you
can't pull the chairs back. And I think that's
the thing of seeing it disjointed, that the function
and aesthetics, that is design. That is, you
know, every designer, that's the two marriages
we look for. But a lot of laymen kind of go,
well, design is the pretty bit. It's the piece
of art. and they forget that actually design
is the function as well. 100%, 100%. We always,
I do a lot of commercial design. When we're designing
something like a restaurant or a bar or something
like that, the flow and where people are going
is so important. I quite often sit with a pencil
and just draw. That's where the waitresses are
going to go. And that's where the customers are
going to go. And there's the reach of the toilets.
Do you know what I mean? And just making sure
that you've got enough room. Because you get
pinch points, don't you? I read a lot about habit
and how flow spaces flow. is also about the habit
that you want people to get from A to B to C
quicker. So if you're a restaurant, I'm sure
it's this, so we can get a hot meal out quicker,
you've got happier clientele. So if they're having
to dodge and weave their way through, you're
slowing that down. So it's known as the friction
point. So you're always trying to iron out the
friction point. But when people are just looking
at it on the pretty side of it, they're not looking
at the friction point first and then selecting
the right pieces to go in. Yeah, absolutely.
And how have you seen that? imbalance affect
people emotionally i think if your space doesn't
work you're always frustrated by it i think that's
that's just a basic and you can sort of see it
i mean i think this was very much at the beginning
of the ted talks i equated it to a pebble in
your shoe that we know when things annoy you
and they kind of you trip over the carpet or
you every time you go past the coffee table you
scrunch your leg on it you know that is bad design
that is something which leads to a frustration
you're not comfortable it's annoying and almost
pinging back to the cluster thing it's if you
have to move three items to get into the cupboard
to put something away shockingly enough things
don't get put away so I think it's that where
just forgetting there is a working space. Your
home is a beautiful place to be, but it is underneath
all that needs to be a working space. There needs
to be enough space as well, doesn't there? While
you were saying that, I was just thinking, don't
put these certain glasses away in my cupboard
because they're too tall for the cupboard. These
two glasses are really frustrating. I call them
clutter bunnies, where things just don't quite
have a home. They're transitory. ready to be
thrown out so newspapers people are reading magazines
which are in play you know it's the little pile
of paperwork which is on the side of the kitchen
they're the little clutter bunnies but I think
the first part of design which is almost means
I'm backtracking is people forget to look at
themselves I think they look they look at design
as an outwardly thing and they forget to look
at who they are how they work what how they function,
what lifestyle they want. It's not just about
what lifestyle they want to live. I think sometimes
people see design as aspirational and it should
help us to live a little better in our home.
But sometimes people forget just how they live
and then they forget to design it in. So let's
say you're a family with two kids coming back
from school and I'm going to pick primary school
age just to run the scenario. They've got scooters
and they've got backpacks and they've got all
the paraphernalia they come in and that stuff
needs to be in and out every single day and so
what happens we don't design homes that accommodate
that or an easy process and so it's in the hallway
and then we go oh every day i come in the hallway
is such a mess it's all this took i need to sort
it out and it's just not looked lifestyle first
then looked at the function of how to make that
lifestyle work and then added well we'll have
a beautiful cupboard but the doors are easy to
things we just slide it in we don't think about
it and then we can slide it in and out so it's
like a process and it's looking at yourself first
I suppose it changes over time as well, doesn't
it? Especially if you've got kids. They grow
up, don't they? They don't have the scooters
anymore. I think that's the element of flexibility
of something. If you design a cupboard so it
can fit the scooters in, don't put a fixed shelf
in because then you might want to take it out
and have two rows of hanging coats or you might
suddenly, you know, life does change. And the
more permanent a piece of furniture, the more
flexible it has to be. So it needs to accommodate
now. and be able to grow with the future, but
it still starts with going, who am I now? Because
sometimes people go, well, we won't have scooters
in five years' time. You go, well, in five years'
time, you may have all died falling over the
scooters, so you might not get there if we don't
think about them now. Brilliant. So I'd like
to explore your philosophy a little bit, if that's
okay. It really stands out for me in this industry,
holistic. centered about around well -being and
I absolutely love that I love you know when you
go into a in somewhere and have a treatment so
like you had a massage then you go into somewhere
holistic they look at you as a whole person instead
of going into the doctors and say I've got a
sore knee and they don't look at why you've got
a sore knee they just give you some some tablet
yeah It's a bit like that, isn't it? And it's
about that kind of... And I love that. The context
of that in interior design really fascinates
me in your theory on it. It was a big move to
do it. One is I myself had to look at what holistic
means because... And really... Open a dictionary
and look it up. And it just means everything's
connected. Because I think holistic at the same
time is also used for, you know, like, oh, it's
all holistic. And, like, we're all having a gong
bath. A bit woo -woo. Yeah, and that's the whole
thing is that people then go, it's all a bit
woo -woo. But in actual fact, holistic means
everything's connected. And so the idea that
we are connected to our spaces on many different
levels and how our space affects us is the approach
I began to look at. I think I've been in the
industry for a while. period of time and was
getting to that point where something felt off
for me personally that I felt that I wasn't delivering
design that kind of fulfilled something else
and I couldn't put my finger on what it was and
the first stage of it was I ended up going to
the BIID conference and they had a guy who designed
offices stand up and talk about the difference
of how you could design an office and it would
create community and it would create staff retention
and it would create you know and therefore leading
into that would be brand and all the rest of
it and you go wow what a different way of looking
at it because I myself had been like, oh, well,
you know, what's coming up the line? What's trendy?
What's happening? How can we make a space look
nice? And I was like, oh, that's really interesting.
And then the next person who spoke was Professor
Hilary Dalk, who spoke about colour and how it
affects people, but, you know, really on a psychological
level. And I left from the conference really
buzzing from this. And I'd then nerdily read
on the side, go, oh, okay, this is kind of interesting,
but thought... still couldn't see how it connected
into how I could work. And we'd then talk like
a nerd in the pub about it and people would be
like, oh my goodness me. And then I put myself,
in Tunbridge Wells we have a franchise for TEDx
and it was coming up and I put myself forward
and said, I'd like to do this. This is what I'd
like to speak to. It really excites me, this
other aspect of design because I think we get
underestimated as interior designers. And we're
seen as purely the pretty. And people see the
sub -function of an architect, but they don't
always see really the wealth of what we can bring.
And it's easy for me to fall into that trap of
forgetting what wealth we can bring as well.
So I wanted to really talk about it in a public
space and say, look, we do more. We can bring
more to the party than you think we're about.
Then they went, yeah, of course, we'd love to
hear you speak. And I went, oh, man alive. I
better really make sure that what I've been talking
about is properly researched and understood and
supported with, you know, stuff underneath. And
so I went knee deep, wrote the whole thing, really
looked at a lot of things. And the more I read
and continue to read now, the more fascinated
I am by it. But what I wanted to do was look
to how we can quickly define this because it
can be such a huge topic and there's so many
things that can plug into it. I ended up looking
at it on three different levels. And one of them
is function. Every designer is looking at a space
functioning really well. The other one is aesthetics.
It's, you know, let's not, you know, throw the
baby out with the bathwater while we're trying
to prove that we're more than that. We are also
that. And then the third element is how a space
feels. And each one of these loops back into
the other. So there's sometimes how a space function
is how it feels. What a space looks like is how
it functions as well. That each one kind of crosses
across. But the easy way of looking at it in
three different areas. And that's how I structured
also the TED Talk to talk about it. And then
I put my heart on my sleeve and structured my
business to... sort of say this is very much
what I stand for and what I do and it made a
big difference to me generally because I felt
that what I could deliver went beyond whether
or not we were putting up the latest tile but
actually in fact creating homes people really
wanted to be in and I always say it's one of
the most meaningful things for me is when people
talk about their homes when they talk about coming
back from a holiday and they go I walk into my
home and I felt It was a lovely space to be in.
I felt welcomed. I felt, you know, safe and secure.
And it was a haven. And all those words we should
have about our home. And you can't put that on
a photograph. But I kind of remember it. And
it means a lot to me when they say it. How has
your business changed since you have made that
shift? It changed a lot, actually. Yeah. So it
was 2017. And I was in the middle of sort of
rebranding something. Yet again, it was a lot
of things feeling off. And I felt that I wasn't
running something which was quite right for me.
And interestingly, at that point, I was still
seeing them as divided. I was still saying, well,
I'm going to do the TED Talk because it's just
my secret passion. But I'm going to keep my interior
design business as it is because that's a safe
pair of trousers, so to speak. And I was working
with somebody who was trying to help me define
the brand. And I sort of went, oh, I'll send
you the TED talk, but I've written it this far.
And, you know, just because you might be interested.
And she wrote back to me and went, why on earth
is this not what you're leading with? This is
everything you stand for. And I think I was very
scared because to sometimes come out with a different
concept, you do wonder if you limit yourself
or you've shut people out. And then it went,
actually, I want to get up every day and run
this business. that's where my passion lies this
is where I feel I can make a difference and so
all a lot of it made a big change in 2017 and
you know the new website came out and all the
branding but this big message behind it and at
that stage I was blogging so it was really good
because I could really look deep into a subject
and write about it and share my feelings and
opinions about it and it's interwoven into my
work and what I like to feel is that people hire
me as an interior designer But we'll look at
the space in different ways and look at how they
work in a space to try and deliver it on these
multiple levels. It's all about asking the right
questions, isn't it? And I think the other big
thing which I did is I slowed my process down
a lot. So it starts with quite a hefty questionnaire,
which everybody hates. You can see it on their
face. You're going, I need to know. And then
drilling down into that, but also slowing down
the process so you've got more room to maneuver
and more room to kind of, I think, step them
through the design as you're building it. And
the reason for that is that we can make alterations
quicker earlier on. And I always say I listen
for the noises as well as what the feedback is
because then I go, okay, what's the feedback?
They go, oh, yeah, it's... Great. And you're
like, OK, that's not a good noise. And I said,
I'm not going to be insulted. Let's talk through
it. Oh, maybe that's not a color for me. Maybe
this is it. Or, you know, and so therefore you're
moving it. But also getting to know people because
people won't talk about their sleep patterns,
possibly straight out the gate. But you may learn
more about it when you're designing a bedroom.
And about, you know, if they're a couple, you
know, which one sleeps better? You know, which
one's out like a light? Which one's, you know,
awake at five o 'clock in the morning? And so
you begin to know more those rhythms. They sort
of come out in the design process as well. It's
about building that relationship, isn't it? And
the rapport. All of us have this thing within
design. You have to ask quite personal questions.
And it can feel quite intrusive because... But
at the same time, you have to ask them because
it's designing things correctly for the way,
you know, there's a lot of generic psychology
I can understand, but it's actually then pinpointing
it down to them themselves. It's all about them,
isn't it? Yeah. It's so important. You place
a strong emphasis on designing how people feel
in a space. How do you uncover those emotional
needs in your clients? and translate them into
a physical environment? It's very tricky because
one is how can you say what a space feels like?
I mean, we've all experienced it when we walk
into, let's say, a restaurant and you go, oh,
I don't feel comfortable here. But you couldn't
always tell yourself why. So one with clients
is it's about, as I just said, having a very
large questionnaire and then going through it.
you know, over them anything which sort of pops
up, asking questions. Even from the time I bid
on a job, I will ask a sentence at the end and
go, like, when we finish this job, how do you
want your home to feel? I always find it really
telling what their answer is because some people,
a lot of the classics are, you know, I want it
to feel warm, I want it to feel welcoming, I
want it to feel joyful. The ones which are always
a bit alarm bells for me is I want it to have
wow factor when other people walk in the house,
I want them to be blown away by it. One person
is talking about how they want to feel in their
home and the other person is wanting to impress
other people. And there isn't to say that that
is a bad thing. It's just not what holistic interior
design is about. I can't design for the stranger,
you know, Mabel next door who might pop over
for tea and decide she does or doesn't like your
tiling. I can decide to make a warm, happy, joyful
home. And it's that first sentence and then building
on that, you know, taking a lot of the questionnaire.
I think the other thing is looking at it on two
levels. One is that having a knowledge as much
as humanly possible about things generically.
So, you know, say with colour psychology, we
all have an element of, you know, where we kind
of know enough about it. Proximetrics is another
really interesting about how close or how far
people want to be. There's a great one which
I love, which is called Prospect Refuge, which
is how you feel in a space that you need to feel
protected from the back. But like you've got
a whole view ahead, which is why booths and restaurants,
everyone loves them. Those are generic ways of
looking. So always looking to make sure... What
do you call that? It's called prospect refuge.
Prospect refuge. So you're always prospecting.
So you've got as wide a view as humanly possible.
And therefore you can see danger coming. You
can see if the lion's about to get you or whatever.
But refuge is you'll protect it. So a lot of
the time we feel uncomfortable if our backs are
exposed. And so... that will dictate how you
sit in a room. So if you have a sofa, let's say
a corner sofa, you can almost plot exactly how
people will sit on that sofa. You can go, right,
that's the first seat that will go, that's seat
number two, that's seat number three, and then
people will start feeling more uncomfortable
there and more uncomfortable there. So if you're
looking at these in general, you can begin to
look at that more like we're probably going to
look generally how we lay a space out, taking
into account that. There's going to be certain
colours, colour psychology -wise, that I'm not
going to favour in certain rooms. If somebody
says, I want my bedroom to be relaxing, I'm probably
not going to paint it bright red because that's
going to have the opposite effect on people.
Interestingly... Did you use Matthew Walker's
book on sleep? No, not heard of that. So it became,
bizarrely, quite the bestseller. But his book
on sleep talks about what people physically and
the circadian rhythm, what they need to go through
to have a good night's sleep. So by understanding
that, we're going to roll that out in a bedroom.
And it's more like you want your temperature
to drop a little bit. So having a dark blue in
there isn't a bad thing. Where loads of people
go, I don't, it's kind of cold. You're like,
I wouldn't dismiss it. So some of it's generic.
And then it gets into getting into the really
personal. So if we get on with the sleep again,
if somebody, you've got a comment of ask, how
do you sleep? And some people don't sleep very
well. So then you've got to look at things like
you would as any designer. Do we need blackout
lining? Do we need this? Do we need the other?
Often I say to people, can we try and get your
phone out of the room? But I haven't got control
of that. That is their decision to do as they
wish. But if we can kind of say, get an alarm
clock, that's going to do you better. The big
thing, working with another client and also being
a lady of a particular age, the effect of menopause.
So if somebody is getting hot, but they may be
cold to begin with, do we need to layer more
the bed? these are the kind of things where you
can get into the personal side. So you start
with the big knowledge and get down to the personal.
But it's hard when you have to ask a woman, your
client, you know, do you struggle with sleep?
Is there any reason for that? You know, but some
people are very happy to discuss it and you've
got to roll with it. Yeah. Yeah. It's really
fascinating. Yeah. I mean, I don't sleep well
at all. So I've read a lot about sleep. So I'm
definitely going to read that. Oh, he does. And
also he pops up a lot on, interviews and things
like that because obviously i think his book
went everyone went mad for his book so he pops
up a lot on podcasts so if you want to go for
the quick quick starter session just tune into
one of them i will how do you design for wellness
what are the non -negotiables in a space that
truly supports mental and emotional well -being
for you okay um with the wellness it's such a
huge topic The first time I started to look at
it, actually, I found there was a place in the
US called the Well Building Institute. And they
divide it by seven different areas which they
look at. And luckily, I've written them down
so I don't lose them. So there's air, water,
nourishment, light, fitness, comfort and mind.
Now, I think there's other things that plug into
that as well. I think sleep, habit, lifestyle
is a huge thing, and posture and support. I mean,
that could come under comfort, but if we're designing
the layout of a room and the TV sight lines are
off, are people watching it? at an angle? Are
they scrunched up? Are they runkeled up? Are
bar stools too high? There's ways of looking
at comfort where in actual fact we're physically
supporting people properly with the furniture
we're putting them in. It can be trickier because
you can pick a sofa and you send them to the
sofa showroom and they'll sit on it in a very
formal way in the showroom and it turns out they
sit like they're nesting in their own home. So
they haven't always tested it to the fullness
of the extent. But anyway, those are the seven
which the Well Institute sort of talks about.
Some of these are harder as an interior designer
to completely cover, but we do it the best you
possibly can. So let's say air. The best thing
for air is where you live. So if you're in a
city, your air quality coming in your window
is going to not be as good as your air quality
coming in if you're living in the middle of a
field. I can't control that. An architect may
be able to control how, when they build the building,
how ventilation and everything works so there's
more air coming through. On the other side of
it, I can't control... If a client loves a scented
candle or a Glade plug -in, or they use domestic
household sprays which have more VOCs in it,
I can't control that. But what can I control
in that factor? I can control what VOCs are in
the paint we put in. I can control whether or
not a lot of furniture... When it gets delivered,
it's got a period which is called gassing off,
which I just find very juvenile -y funny, which
is that you get that kind of the new car smell,
which is basically all the formaldehyde and all
the chemicals, you know, coming into the air.
You know, how can we... Minimize that. New furniture
is going to have that more than reupholstered
old furniture. So there's those sort of things
where you're trying to look at it as a designer.
How can I do it? I think some of these are key.
Nourishment. How do we design a kitchen that
cooking really is at the heart of it? Because
people can make a good meal. They're not ordering
delivery. So fitness is another one which I find
really intriguing. Because a lot of the time
we're trying to minimise how much people move
to have to do something. But then the question
is, do we actually need to change that so that
people are moving more? And that's a really hard
balance to make. Have you heard the thing about
doctors? So when you go to the doctor, some doctors
ring the little buzzer on their desk and go...
Miss Roy, can you please come to the surgery
down the hallway? And you do the walking to them.
And then there's the other doctors who get up
and come to the waiting room and go, Miss Roy,
please follow me. What they found was the doctors
who were getting up, so you're having to do that
every five, ten minutes, get up, you're just
taking a few steps down the hallway and then
you're coming back again, were in better shape
than the ones who were just ringing the bell
at their desk. Because sedatory is like the new
smoking, as we've all heard. And that's where
it's all you've designed an element of movement
and fitness into a workspace. Next question is,
how do we do that within a home? And will the
client be resilient to it? Yeah, because often
they don't want what they would see as a friction
point. So you've got to look at that balance.
So it's fascinating, isn't it? And the other
thing, the problem with it is that. you can't
always get it right can you it's like the client
might say to you I want to move more but then
you make them move more and they don't like it
you know you don't know if they're actually going
to live it and accept it I suppose you have to
go through go through it with them in quite a
lot of depth to make sure that they are on board
with it it's that weird thing is you know it's
I think This is where I see things like habit
come in as well. There's so many great things
to read about habit. But if people are wanting
to, you know, get fit more, you make it easier
for them to get their wellies on to get out the
front door. You know, this is where the personal
comes in because it's about how that person's
functions and just they're going. okay, I'm having
to get to know you and I'm having to get to know
you down to the finite thing that you will probably
maybe do something a little bit more than less,
but I will never know whether this does or doesn't
work because you're unlikely to phone and say,
I'm walking more. Your TED Talk left a really
impression on me. Especially your quote, interior
design isn't about impressing strangers. It's
about creating a space that feeds your soul every
day. And I'm like, I've got goosebumps just saying
that now. Can you tell us the story behind the
idea and what inspired you? How did it shape
your approach going forward? I think we've kind
of covered a little bit of that, haven't we?
I think it's about... people -centric design,
which all design should be. That's the very key
of what ergonomics is. But we've taken people
out of it. And that was the thing for me, was
that it was about impressing people. It was about
having it look pretty. It was about this sort
of side of it. And I was 100 % in that camp because
I felt that that has been what I've been told
to do. And I began to see it differently. And
I began to see that, It's almost peddling it
back. If you buy a hamster, we look to how we
can make them happy in their cages. Why do we
not do this for ourselves? We live in these houses
and they are our homes and that means so much
to us. And we talk about there being a haven
and somewhere safer for us to be and a loving
place. That is what we should be aiming to create.
And that is very much what I want to create,
is that people feel at their best when they're
in those doors, living in those spaces. I think
it really relates, because I do a lot more commercial
than residential. But for me, the holistic thing
is just something I naturally do because I look
at brand. So I'm always going back to the brand.
What's the brand? What's the story? and keep
tagging that back. So everything that I do is
kind of related. But I really loved listening
to your talk because, and I love this theory,
because it is how you do it in Resi. It's how
you do that. Everything comes back to the brand.
In Resi, everything comes back to the person.
Who are they? What are they doing? And I think,
interestingly, in commercial, and that is where
we're talking in commercial, psychology has been
used on us for years. but like in a bad way.
So, you know, within shops, they understood how
a person works to their best within a shop. And
they would know that if you had things folded
up and you touch something, apparently you make
more of a personal connection to it. So therefore
you're more likely to go, well, yes, I do love
this sweater. And you go to the till. How you
design a changing room, how you design the flow,
how you do this. A lot of this has been used
in commercial environments since the year dot.
You know, it's not a coincidence that the bakery
oil smells of bread. And all the bread's in a
package. It's pumped in. You know, these things
have been used for a long, long time to actually
press our little psychological buttons to have
us form a particular behavior. And that's what
I quite liked on doing is I'm picking it like
dark magic and then going, how could we use it
for good? I still think there's a long way, you
know, with certain commercial areas. I'm fascinated
with them. I just don't happen to do as many.
I think the office is the most underutilized
area and where we could make a huge difference
to people's lives with how we design them and
how approaching them in a holistic approach.
And some of the research behind it, some of it's
terrifying when you read some about how people
are in a... open plan office and how it can push
their mental health to its limits and yet it's
so underutilized with how we can change that
and how we could therefore change people's work
lives and when people at work so much what an
amazing difference that would make Or how would
it change companies' productivity if people actually
wanted to go to an office instead of sitting
at home going, I'm happier here, thanks? I think
COVID has been brilliant for that because a lot
of people have gone home and stayed there because
they don't like going to the office because they
don't like it. And I'm working with quite a few
different companies since COVID. I'm working
with one at the moment in central London where
they can't get their staff back into the office.
So they're having to refurbish and they're having
to create like little pods so people can have
private conversations and and and private offices
and lots of little breakout areas that people
can use because people don't want to sit in the
open plan and have that conversation with whoever
it is they're having yeah having that with and
we have gone very much from having everyone having
their own office haven't we in a lot of places
not necessarily in central london but there's
there's been a massive shift towards the open
plan office. And I kind of like it, but sometimes
I don't. We've got an open plan office. I've
got to get a bit woolly about it, but I think
there's an optimum amount of people we can all
spend time with. So sometimes the higher it gets,
you get an acoustic problem anyway. You get more
and more people, more and more spread out. We're
all much more plugged into devices and music
anyway. There's a slight disconnect there anyway.
But there is this idea that if we start creating
more individual areas, so it's not just the pod,
but even if we're just into a table of eight
instead of a room of 150, and that people can
feel that they... are happy there and they've
got you know some autonomy there and stuff like
that I think there's there's a lot which could
be done but even small offices so you know I'm
in Tunbridge Wells and we recently redid an office
and it was like a two three man office and he
was very much like I want it to be a nice place
to be and he'd already looked at a number of
office designers and then he came to me because
he went I just keep being shown like six desks
in a room And we ended up turning it into more
of a living room. And it has a coffee table that
can turn into, it kind of starts a coffee table.
You can pop into a desk and then it can pop into
a table. So they can have it like a boardroom.
And they go, well, we entertain now. We all spend
more time in the evening. And you're going, yay.
That's how it should be. It should be different.
It's that coming at it from a different angle.
But offices. Do you know what I love about the
holistic? side of of something like a restaurant
I think somewhere like a public space like that
people like to be told people like to understand
the space so if you tell them what to do through
like the flooring this is this is the this is
the gangway yeah and and this is this is where
the chairs and tables go kind of thing and the
floor is different yeah that people love things
like that and they think because it's clear it's
really clear it's clear to the staff it's clear
to all the customers everyone knows where they're
going. And I think that's one of the things that
I really focus on for holistic commercial space
is that kind of telling people what to do, where
to go, having clear signage and making sure that
everyone understands. You can kind of like, almost
with interior design, you can always kind of
like control what happens with the flow of things
and with the flooring or with the lighting and
everything, all kind of. like going in the same
direction yeah and what I love in restaurants
as well which we you know well done is when they
can create the idea that you can have an intimate
space so there's just like two of you at a table
but with the lighting and you can literally have
people sat next to you but you can still feel
like there's just a pair of you um I think that's
genius and I've always find very peculiar I remember
there was um a pub where I used to work and they
had it was a really lovely place to go and then
where all the seating worked And then they just
moved everything around, but they didn't change
the lighting. And suddenly it was so off. You
couldn't put your finger in. It was like nowhere
you really wanted to sit. But it's that thing
of being able to create space you want to sit
in, where you kind of go, here we are. We all
might be around some people. So this is where
Proximetrics comes in, you know. And just they're
going, it's about how I can be with two people
while still surrounded by a lot of people. and
it's the social space and the personal space.
It's really fascinating. This is my nerd thing.
When you go to a restaurant, my husband's there
looking at the menu, and I'm like, right, so
how's this working? What's going on here? How's
this working? You go, this is great. Since you've
done your TED Talk, though, has your message
evolved or deepened in any way? Has it changed?
It was quite a few years ago, wasn't it? Yeah,
yeah. It feels longer and longer ago. Well, it
is longer and longer ago. Every year it passes,
but I think, It so released who I, you know,
what I believed in that I just keep reading more
and more and more. And so therefore more plugs
in to my knowledge and the way I want to approach
things. At the moment, one of the things I've
become... slightly more obsessed with trying
to put the pieces together is about identity
and space and especially when you're working
as an interior designer there's that point of
like where's the crossover between your identity
and your client's identity And normally people
have hired me because they like what I do. And
so therefore already my designs speak to something
they like. So that's a bit easier. But it's then
making sure it feels like their space and their
identity. And it's hard to talk about that in
a holistic way because surely that's what we're
all doing. But yet again, I think it's... that
goes back to the pretty awful design is that
when people are gleaning stuff from magazines
and looking at what's in trend sometimes they
forget to really put their finger on who they
are and what is their identity and therefore
what needs to be in a space to say this is who
I am and this is how I like to represent myself
and this is why it's my home not someone else's
home I think there is some designers though that
have a style isn't there and you go to that designer
because you like their style but I'm and quite
a lot of people in commercial are a bit like
that but I'm definitely in your camp I like latch
on I like kind of go into somebody and I go what's
your business or what's your who are you and
people come to my website and they say all of
your designs are so different like what's your
style I don't think people see that much difference
in my stuff really now it's really interesting
and I think I think it was because I started,
it wasn't that I was looking to have just one
particular house style. It's that certain work
began to pop up on my website and people loved
it. So I kept being hired to do more of that.
And it's the fact that I loved it. So I think
people always go, oh, you like color. I had one
person go, oh, you use a lot of green. And they're
going, well, one, when you're working with biophilic
design or, you know, relaxing spaces, certain
colors come up more than other colors. So it's
a really hard thing, where you don't mean to
have a house start, but suddenly you do. And
you're like, okay, I don't know how we can, you
know, move this sideways, but, you know. I suppose
it's a lot easier for me, because I'm working
with different businesses. So one business might
have a brand that's red, and I'm being very sort
of presumptuous here, because sometimes the interior
design isn't the same colour as a brand, but
quite often it can be very close. Especially
in offices, you want the logo on the wall at
some point. So, yeah, you have to kind of design
around that. So, yeah, but yes, it's fascinating.
Yeah, well, I did a barrister's chambers in London.
And of course, I think now I look at that and
it's much more neutral with this little bit.
I would say that I'm probably sitting in the
classic contemporary band, which is quite good
because sometimes you can shove more contemporary
and you can shove more classic, but I'm never
going to be a minimalist, shiny surface. And
so it was probably shoving a little bit more
classic. It was kind of in the heart of the...
I want to say the legal area now because I can't
remember. And so I would say that looks very
different than a house I did in Tennessee where
it was really colourful and they let me really
go to town. But I still think you can see my
hand in it. I think there's still an approach
and you can almost see it in there. So it's not
that I've deliberately gone, house style. It's
just like, I think you can spot it's my work.
That's good, that's good. Phoebe, your work is
such a beautiful blend of heart and function
and I think it's exactly what the design world
needs right now. For anyone starting a new project,
what's one piece of advice that you might give
them? I've divided this into who I'd be speaking
to. I think with designers, I would say that
if you're looking to take a more holistic approach,
don't panic, you've got the tools. already it's
more that it's coming at it from a different
angle that if you've been taught how to lay out
a space you've been taught how to decorate a
space it's just the understanding that your goal
might be a little bit different so it's that
if you're looking to wellness you're looking
to sleep you're using that same toolbox but you're
just building it a little bit different so I
think that's the thing which almost blew my own
mind is it didn't mean I needed to be a different
designer. It's just you need to weave it through
a bit of a different way. For the layman who's
doing their own design, remember the design bit
of it. And I think that's where I see a lot of
people where sometimes I'm called in retrospectively
after they've sort of done it. and most of them
have forgotten to actually take time out to design.
They've kind of run into the implementation and
then they've got a builder yelling at them, you
know, I need some tiling, Bob's coming tomorrow.
And they're making quick decisions. They're looking
at Pinterest. But they've also created spaces
a bit disjointed. Because they go, we'll just
have a little bit of tiling here. And then we'll
maybe do a shelf over there. And they forget
to see it as a whole. So just take a step back.
Take time. Enjoy the design process. Work it
all out on paper. And just look at it as a space
as a whole instead of a collection of little
Pinterest features. And then it's more cohesive.
And people then feel more cohesive using it.
Amazing. Thank you so much. Oh, well, thank you
so much. If today's conversation resonated with
you, don't forget to follow, share, and leave
us a comment. What's your biggest takeaway from
Phoebe's approach? And if you're here at Clark
and Mel Design Week, come by the Solar Showroom
to see where this episode was recorded and explore
some amazing surfaces. You'll find links to Phoebe's
TED Talk and website in the show notes. Thank
you very much for joining us. Well, thank you.
Thank you.