WEBVTT 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:11.800 Welcome back to the Interior Design Podcast. 00:00:12.179 --> 00:00:14.699 I'm your host, Hayley Roy, and today's episode 00:00:14.699 --> 00:00:17.879 is coming to you from the stunning Solus showroom 00:00:17.879 --> 00:00:21.440 at Clerkenwell Design Week. A big thank you to 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:23.440 Joe Burley from Solus for making this recording 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:26.120 possible. We're so grateful to be surrounded 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:28.980 by such inspiring materials and brilliant design 00:00:28.980 --> 00:00:32.359 energy. Our guest today is someone who is truly 00:00:32.359 --> 00:00:35.979 changing the way we think about interiors. TEDx 00:00:35.979 --> 00:00:38.159 speaker and founder of Smart Style Interiors, 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:41.140 Phoebe Oldry. Phoebe, welcome. Oh, thank you 00:00:41.140 --> 00:00:43.280 so much. That's very kind of you to say that 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:47.939 about me. Phoebe, before we dive in, I'd like 00:00:47.939 --> 00:00:49.500 to share with our community something that you've 00:00:49.500 --> 00:00:53.380 taught me that I learned from you. Did you know 00:00:53.380 --> 00:00:55.600 that studies have shown cluttered environments 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:59.060 can raise cortisol levels and even mimic PTSD 00:00:59.060 --> 00:01:02.619 symptoms? It's a powerful reminder of how our 00:01:02.619 --> 00:01:04.920 homes impact our mental health and your work 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:07.879 speaks directly to that, doesn't it? Yeah, I 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:12.640 found that fact when I read it really blew my 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:16.489 mind because... Clutter, we always think of it 00:01:16.489 --> 00:01:21.590 as a small thing. And I knew firsthand that I'd 00:01:21.590 --> 00:01:24.870 seen the effect of clutter on mental health as 00:01:24.870 --> 00:01:26.689 my mother, near the end of her life, had become 00:01:26.689 --> 00:01:31.430 a bit of a hoarder. And the effect that basically 00:01:31.430 --> 00:01:35.370 the symbiotic relationship between the fact that 00:01:35.370 --> 00:01:38.010 as her mental health deteriorated, the ability 00:01:38.010 --> 00:01:40.049 to stay on top of her home and her stuff and 00:01:40.049 --> 00:01:43.420 what possessions meant, and then... That in itself 00:01:43.420 --> 00:01:45.739 exacerbated the problem of mental health. So 00:01:45.739 --> 00:01:47.340 there was one point of it which was there was 00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:49.640 an element of a personal take on it. There's 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:51.519 a lot of blog posts and magazine articles out 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:53.400 there which always just go, oh, studies say. 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:56.299 And I went, well, what is this study of which 00:01:56.299 --> 00:01:59.400 you speak? And so I went and looked it up. And 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:01.780 I've got the name here. So it was done by UCLA. 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:05.519 And they actually have a department called the 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:09.659 Center of Everyday Lives of Families, which is 00:02:09.659 --> 00:02:12.560 a bizarre. department for a university to have 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:17.060 and they basically studied 32 families based 00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:20.360 in the LA area and they went and looked at all 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.620 aspects of their life within their home and there 00:02:23.620 --> 00:02:26.199 was many things that came up on it one of it 00:02:26.199 --> 00:02:29.259 was like how we'd use kitchens differently and 00:02:29.259 --> 00:02:33.460 how spaces are used but part of that study was 00:02:33.460 --> 00:02:37.680 they looked at how people reacted to clutter 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:39.800 in their homes and what they would do is they'd 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:41.219 follow these people around where they talked 00:02:41.219 --> 00:02:43.520 about their home and they would actually take 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.599 a swab from inside their mouth that they discussed 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:50.280 it and they would see literally the spike in 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:52.680 cortisol in these people when they sort of said 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:57.180 oh no don't look at that pile of laundry or don't 00:02:57.180 --> 00:03:00.259 you know don't look at bob's garage And when 00:03:00.259 --> 00:03:02.180 you see the photos in a book, because it was 00:03:02.180 --> 00:03:05.020 released as a book called Life at Home in the 00:03:05.020 --> 00:03:08.219 21st Century, they are overwhelming, the amount 00:03:08.219 --> 00:03:11.580 of stuff these houses have, garages up high. 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:14.400 And interestingly, they said it was more that 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.740 women actually had a higher spike in their cortisol 00:03:17.740 --> 00:03:24.360 due to these piles of clutter. I think sometimes 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.000 we underestimate what clutter is or how an effect 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:29.639 it can have because it seems so trivial and it 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:32.379 seems like we're all into the home edit and does 00:03:32.379 --> 00:03:35.620 clutter mean we need our cereal boxed and packaged 00:03:35.620 --> 00:03:38.659 with individual labels on it? But it means we 00:03:38.659 --> 00:03:41.039 just need spaces that work better for people. 00:03:41.219 --> 00:03:44.919 And looking at it on a design level, you can 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:47.360 approach it from many different levels. But managing 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:51.759 to make sure people's homes are clutter -free. 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:55.379 makes a huge difference to how people can live 00:03:55.379 --> 00:03:58.159 in their home, how people mentally feel in their 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:03.719 home. Yeah, huge. I'm obsessively tidy and very 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:06.000 messy at the same time, so I create the mess. 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:08.219 If it's my mess, it's fine, but if it's somebody 00:04:08.219 --> 00:04:10.860 else's mess, ooh! Yeah, and it's... Isn't that 00:04:10.860 --> 00:04:13.080 weird? It is really weird. I find I sometimes... 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:15.580 It's terrible to say, but if I go round to some 00:04:15.580 --> 00:04:19.420 homes and they're overly full of stuff... it 00:04:19.420 --> 00:04:21.800 is that hard thing is when you begin to know 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:23.420 what difference it can make you'll be like oh 00:04:23.420 --> 00:04:25.120 god I want to tell you just for them just for 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:26.819 them and you're going no no don't that's weird. 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:32.779 Okay so let's start with the common frustrations 00:04:32.779 --> 00:04:36.120 that we all face. Homes that look great on Pinterest 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:38.959 or Instagram but don't actually work day -to 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:41.420 -day life. What do you think are the most common 00:04:41.420 --> 00:04:43.560 design mistakes people make when trying to balance 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:47.040 style and function? Well it matters where about 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:50.310 when we say people whether we're talking about 00:04:50.310 --> 00:04:54.209 designers approaching a design but with regular 00:04:54.209 --> 00:04:56.649 people I think it's normally an easy one to answer 00:04:56.649 --> 00:04:59.009 I think people don't see the connection between 00:04:59.009 --> 00:05:02.009 how a home works and what a home looks like and 00:05:02.009 --> 00:05:04.589 it's often they don't see the power of what design 00:05:04.589 --> 00:05:08.689 is or that designs for them and so I call it 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:14.300 pretty awful design where it looks great but 00:05:14.300 --> 00:05:16.899 it doesn't function and they've forgotten to 00:05:16.899 --> 00:05:19.180 look at themselves first who they are how they 00:05:19.180 --> 00:05:21.680 like to work you know do they like cooking do 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:23.560 they like this do they like the other they've 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:25.600 forgotten to look at really putting function 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:29.040 first and but they've gone straight in for the 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:32.379 pretty and then they've got a table which they 00:05:32.379 --> 00:05:34.879 love, but it's too big for the space, and you 00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:37.300 can't pull the chairs back. And I think that's 00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:40.800 the thing of seeing it disjointed, that the function 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:45.060 and aesthetics, that is design. That is, you 00:05:45.060 --> 00:05:48.360 know, every designer, that's the two marriages 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:52.500 we look for. But a lot of laymen kind of go, 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.560 well, design is the pretty bit. It's the piece 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:58.120 of art. and they forget that actually design 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:02.220 is the function as well. 100%, 100%. We always, 00:06:02.379 --> 00:06:06.170 I do a lot of commercial design. When we're designing 00:06:06.170 --> 00:06:08.250 something like a restaurant or a bar or something 00:06:08.250 --> 00:06:11.129 like that, the flow and where people are going 00:06:11.129 --> 00:06:14.110 is so important. I quite often sit with a pencil 00:06:14.110 --> 00:06:17.110 and just draw. That's where the waitresses are 00:06:17.110 --> 00:06:20.410 going to go. And that's where the customers are 00:06:20.410 --> 00:06:22.689 going to go. And there's the reach of the toilets. 00:06:23.410 --> 00:06:25.829 Do you know what I mean? And just making sure 00:06:25.829 --> 00:06:28.889 that you've got enough room. Because you get 00:06:28.889 --> 00:06:31.389 pinch points, don't you? I read a lot about habit 00:06:31.389 --> 00:06:35.889 and how flow spaces flow. is also about the habit 00:06:35.889 --> 00:06:37.810 that you want people to get from A to B to C 00:06:37.810 --> 00:06:39.870 quicker. So if you're a restaurant, I'm sure 00:06:39.870 --> 00:06:42.529 it's this, so we can get a hot meal out quicker, 00:06:42.689 --> 00:06:44.970 you've got happier clientele. So if they're having 00:06:44.970 --> 00:06:47.649 to dodge and weave their way through, you're 00:06:47.649 --> 00:06:49.370 slowing that down. So it's known as the friction 00:06:49.370 --> 00:06:51.689 point. So you're always trying to iron out the 00:06:51.689 --> 00:06:54.129 friction point. But when people are just looking 00:06:54.129 --> 00:06:56.689 at it on the pretty side of it, they're not looking 00:06:56.689 --> 00:06:59.550 at the friction point first and then selecting 00:06:59.550 --> 00:07:02.110 the right pieces to go in. Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:02.750 --> 00:07:05.319 And how have you seen that? imbalance affect 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:08.399 people emotionally i think if your space doesn't 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.560 work you're always frustrated by it i think that's 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:15.600 that's just a basic and you can sort of see it 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:17.480 i mean i think this was very much at the beginning 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:19.740 of the ted talks i equated it to a pebble in 00:07:19.740 --> 00:07:23.490 your shoe that we know when things annoy you 00:07:23.490 --> 00:07:26.410 and they kind of you trip over the carpet or 00:07:26.410 --> 00:07:29.209 you every time you go past the coffee table you 00:07:29.209 --> 00:07:33.149 scrunch your leg on it you know that is bad design 00:07:33.149 --> 00:07:35.810 that is something which leads to a frustration 00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:40.069 you're not comfortable it's annoying and almost 00:07:40.069 --> 00:07:42.310 pinging back to the cluster thing it's if you 00:07:42.310 --> 00:07:44.949 have to move three items to get into the cupboard 00:07:44.949 --> 00:07:47.829 to put something away shockingly enough things 00:07:47.829 --> 00:07:53.209 don't get put away so I think it's that where 00:07:53.209 --> 00:07:55.709 just forgetting there is a working space. Your 00:07:55.709 --> 00:07:59.350 home is a beautiful place to be, but it is underneath 00:07:59.350 --> 00:08:01.810 all that needs to be a working space. There needs 00:08:01.810 --> 00:08:04.850 to be enough space as well, doesn't there? While 00:08:04.850 --> 00:08:07.750 you were saying that, I was just thinking, don't 00:08:07.750 --> 00:08:10.350 put these certain glasses away in my cupboard 00:08:10.350 --> 00:08:12.410 because they're too tall for the cupboard. These 00:08:12.410 --> 00:08:15.449 two glasses are really frustrating. I call them 00:08:15.449 --> 00:08:18.050 clutter bunnies, where things just don't quite 00:08:18.050 --> 00:08:21.050 have a home. They're transitory. ready to be 00:08:21.050 --> 00:08:23.470 thrown out so newspapers people are reading magazines 00:08:23.470 --> 00:08:26.029 which are in play you know it's the little pile 00:08:26.029 --> 00:08:27.970 of paperwork which is on the side of the kitchen 00:08:27.970 --> 00:08:30.550 they're the little clutter bunnies but I think 00:08:30.550 --> 00:08:33.049 the first part of design which is almost means 00:08:33.049 --> 00:08:35.649 I'm backtracking is people forget to look at 00:08:35.649 --> 00:08:39.750 themselves I think they look they look at design 00:08:39.750 --> 00:08:42.970 as an outwardly thing and they forget to look 00:08:42.970 --> 00:08:48.419 at who they are how they work what how they function, 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:51.759 what lifestyle they want. It's not just about 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:53.779 what lifestyle they want to live. I think sometimes 00:08:53.779 --> 00:08:56.559 people see design as aspirational and it should 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:59.000 help us to live a little better in our home. 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:01.899 But sometimes people forget just how they live 00:09:01.899 --> 00:09:05.620 and then they forget to design it in. So let's 00:09:05.620 --> 00:09:08.779 say you're a family with two kids coming back 00:09:08.779 --> 00:09:11.820 from school and I'm going to pick primary school 00:09:11.820 --> 00:09:15.259 age just to run the scenario. They've got scooters 00:09:15.259 --> 00:09:18.899 and they've got backpacks and they've got all 00:09:18.899 --> 00:09:21.059 the paraphernalia they come in and that stuff 00:09:21.059 --> 00:09:24.840 needs to be in and out every single day and so 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.720 what happens we don't design homes that accommodate 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:33.460 that or an easy process and so it's in the hallway 00:09:33.460 --> 00:09:36.220 and then we go oh every day i come in the hallway 00:09:36.220 --> 00:09:38.379 is such a mess it's all this took i need to sort 00:09:38.379 --> 00:09:42.480 it out and it's just not looked lifestyle first 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:46.000 then looked at the function of how to make that 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.399 lifestyle work and then added well we'll have 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:50.220 a beautiful cupboard but the doors are easy to 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:52.039 things we just slide it in we don't think about 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:53.919 it and then we can slide it in and out so it's 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:56.840 like a process and it's looking at yourself first 00:09:57.529 --> 00:09:59.590 I suppose it changes over time as well, doesn't 00:09:59.590 --> 00:10:01.389 it? Especially if you've got kids. They grow 00:10:01.389 --> 00:10:02.870 up, don't they? They don't have the scooters 00:10:02.870 --> 00:10:04.529 anymore. I think that's the element of flexibility 00:10:04.529 --> 00:10:07.830 of something. If you design a cupboard so it 00:10:07.830 --> 00:10:11.009 can fit the scooters in, don't put a fixed shelf 00:10:11.009 --> 00:10:13.309 in because then you might want to take it out 00:10:13.309 --> 00:10:16.029 and have two rows of hanging coats or you might 00:10:16.029 --> 00:10:20.029 suddenly, you know, life does change. And the 00:10:20.029 --> 00:10:22.529 more permanent a piece of furniture, the more 00:10:22.529 --> 00:10:25.090 flexible it has to be. So it needs to accommodate 00:10:25.090 --> 00:10:29.299 now. and be able to grow with the future, but 00:10:29.299 --> 00:10:32.100 it still starts with going, who am I now? Because 00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:34.460 sometimes people go, well, we won't have scooters 00:10:34.460 --> 00:10:36.299 in five years' time. You go, well, in five years' 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:38.480 time, you may have all died falling over the 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.220 scooters, so you might not get there if we don't 00:10:41.220 --> 00:10:45.960 think about them now. Brilliant. So I'd like 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:48.019 to explore your philosophy a little bit, if that's 00:10:48.019 --> 00:10:53.299 okay. It really stands out for me in this industry, 00:10:53.419 --> 00:10:57.779 holistic. centered about around well -being and 00:10:57.779 --> 00:11:00.860 I absolutely love that I love you know when you 00:11:00.860 --> 00:11:06.799 go into a in somewhere and have a treatment so 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:08.759 like you had a massage then you go into somewhere 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:11.240 holistic they look at you as a whole person instead 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:13.379 of going into the doctors and say I've got a 00:11:13.379 --> 00:11:15.740 sore knee and they don't look at why you've got 00:11:15.740 --> 00:11:17.700 a sore knee they just give you some some tablet 00:11:17.700 --> 00:11:20.879 yeah It's a bit like that, isn't it? And it's 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:25.759 about that kind of... And I love that. The context 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:27.740 of that in interior design really fascinates 00:11:27.740 --> 00:11:29.919 me in your theory on it. It was a big move to 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:34.220 do it. One is I myself had to look at what holistic 00:11:34.220 --> 00:11:38.419 means because... And really... Open a dictionary 00:11:38.419 --> 00:11:40.240 and look it up. And it just means everything's 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:43.399 connected. Because I think holistic at the same 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:45.299 time is also used for, you know, like, oh, it's 00:11:45.299 --> 00:11:47.840 all holistic. And, like, we're all having a gong 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:49.860 bath. A bit woo -woo. Yeah, and that's the whole 00:11:49.860 --> 00:11:51.320 thing is that people then go, it's all a bit 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:52.840 woo -woo. But in actual fact, holistic means 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:56.580 everything's connected. And so the idea that 00:11:56.580 --> 00:11:59.519 we are connected to our spaces on many different 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:04.039 levels and how our space affects us is the approach 00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:06.220 I began to look at. I think I've been in the 00:12:06.220 --> 00:12:09.159 industry for a while. period of time and was 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:12.360 getting to that point where something felt off 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:15.039 for me personally that I felt that I wasn't delivering 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:19.899 design that kind of fulfilled something else 00:12:19.899 --> 00:12:22.840 and I couldn't put my finger on what it was and 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:24.879 the first stage of it was I ended up going to 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:31.259 the BIID conference and they had a guy who designed 00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:33.659 offices stand up and talk about the difference 00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:36.659 of how you could design an office and it would 00:12:36.659 --> 00:12:41.039 create community and it would create staff retention 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:44.379 and it would create you know and therefore leading 00:12:44.379 --> 00:12:47.279 into that would be brand and all the rest of 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:48.940 it and you go wow what a different way of looking 00:12:48.940 --> 00:12:52.440 at it because I myself had been like, oh, well, 00:12:52.659 --> 00:12:55.179 you know, what's coming up the line? What's trendy? 00:12:55.460 --> 00:12:57.259 What's happening? How can we make a space look 00:12:57.259 --> 00:12:59.299 nice? And I was like, oh, that's really interesting. 00:12:59.460 --> 00:13:02.539 And then the next person who spoke was Professor 00:13:02.539 --> 00:13:05.379 Hilary Dalk, who spoke about colour and how it 00:13:05.379 --> 00:13:08.419 affects people, but, you know, really on a psychological 00:13:08.419 --> 00:13:11.059 level. And I left from the conference really 00:13:11.059 --> 00:13:14.399 buzzing from this. And I'd then nerdily read 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:16.960 on the side, go, oh, okay, this is kind of interesting, 00:13:17.019 --> 00:13:19.940 but thought... still couldn't see how it connected 00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:23.820 into how I could work. And we'd then talk like 00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:25.940 a nerd in the pub about it and people would be 00:13:25.940 --> 00:13:28.440 like, oh my goodness me. And then I put myself, 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:31.379 in Tunbridge Wells we have a franchise for TEDx 00:13:31.379 --> 00:13:34.519 and it was coming up and I put myself forward 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:37.820 and said, I'd like to do this. This is what I'd 00:13:37.820 --> 00:13:39.700 like to speak to. It really excites me, this 00:13:39.700 --> 00:13:43.059 other aspect of design because I think we get 00:13:43.059 --> 00:13:47.850 underestimated as interior designers. And we're 00:13:47.850 --> 00:13:51.789 seen as purely the pretty. And people see the 00:13:51.789 --> 00:13:54.309 sub -function of an architect, but they don't 00:13:54.309 --> 00:13:57.009 always see really the wealth of what we can bring. 00:13:57.970 --> 00:14:02.409 And it's easy for me to fall into that trap of 00:14:02.409 --> 00:14:04.370 forgetting what wealth we can bring as well. 00:14:05.110 --> 00:14:07.309 So I wanted to really talk about it in a public 00:14:07.309 --> 00:14:10.289 space and say, look, we do more. We can bring 00:14:10.289 --> 00:14:13.029 more to the party than you think we're about. 00:14:15.340 --> 00:14:16.919 Then they went, yeah, of course, we'd love to 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:19.519 hear you speak. And I went, oh, man alive. I 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.960 better really make sure that what I've been talking 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:25.820 about is properly researched and understood and 00:14:25.820 --> 00:14:28.500 supported with, you know, stuff underneath. And 00:14:28.500 --> 00:14:31.740 so I went knee deep, wrote the whole thing, really 00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:33.419 looked at a lot of things. And the more I read 00:14:33.419 --> 00:14:35.740 and continue to read now, the more fascinated 00:14:35.740 --> 00:14:39.019 I am by it. But what I wanted to do was look 00:14:39.019 --> 00:14:41.840 to how we can quickly define this because it 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:44.700 can be such a huge topic and there's so many 00:14:44.700 --> 00:14:47.059 things that can plug into it. I ended up looking 00:14:47.059 --> 00:14:50.899 at it on three different levels. And one of them 00:14:50.899 --> 00:14:54.419 is function. Every designer is looking at a space 00:14:54.419 --> 00:14:57.299 functioning really well. The other one is aesthetics. 00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:00.940 It's, you know, let's not, you know, throw the 00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:02.539 baby out with the bathwater while we're trying 00:15:02.539 --> 00:15:04.580 to prove that we're more than that. We are also 00:15:04.580 --> 00:15:07.720 that. And then the third element is how a space 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:12.240 feels. And each one of these loops back into 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:15.220 the other. So there's sometimes how a space function 00:15:15.220 --> 00:15:18.659 is how it feels. What a space looks like is how 00:15:18.659 --> 00:15:22.360 it functions as well. That each one kind of crosses 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:23.980 across. But the easy way of looking at it in 00:15:23.980 --> 00:15:26.860 three different areas. And that's how I structured 00:15:26.860 --> 00:15:30.000 also the TED Talk to talk about it. And then 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:32.039 I put my heart on my sleeve and structured my 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:34.950 business to... sort of say this is very much 00:15:34.950 --> 00:15:39.090 what I stand for and what I do and it made a 00:15:39.090 --> 00:15:41.029 big difference to me generally because I felt 00:15:41.029 --> 00:15:44.450 that what I could deliver went beyond whether 00:15:44.450 --> 00:15:47.230 or not we were putting up the latest tile but 00:15:47.230 --> 00:15:49.009 actually in fact creating homes people really 00:15:49.009 --> 00:15:52.529 wanted to be in and I always say it's one of 00:15:52.529 --> 00:15:54.750 the most meaningful things for me is when people 00:15:54.750 --> 00:15:57.649 talk about their homes when they talk about coming 00:15:57.649 --> 00:15:59.710 back from a holiday and they go I walk into my 00:15:59.710 --> 00:16:02.429 home and I felt It was a lovely space to be in. 00:16:02.529 --> 00:16:05.470 I felt welcomed. I felt, you know, safe and secure. 00:16:05.549 --> 00:16:07.629 And it was a haven. And all those words we should 00:16:07.629 --> 00:16:09.889 have about our home. And you can't put that on 00:16:09.889 --> 00:16:14.809 a photograph. But I kind of remember it. And 00:16:14.809 --> 00:16:17.190 it means a lot to me when they say it. How has 00:16:17.190 --> 00:16:20.009 your business changed since you have made that 00:16:20.009 --> 00:16:24.110 shift? It changed a lot, actually. Yeah. So it 00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:29.840 was 2017. And I was in the middle of sort of 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:31.919 rebranding something. Yet again, it was a lot 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.480 of things feeling off. And I felt that I wasn't 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:36.039 running something which was quite right for me. 00:16:36.620 --> 00:16:39.220 And interestingly, at that point, I was still 00:16:39.220 --> 00:16:41.299 seeing them as divided. I was still saying, well, 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:43.039 I'm going to do the TED Talk because it's just 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:46.740 my secret passion. But I'm going to keep my interior 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:48.759 design business as it is because that's a safe 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:53.419 pair of trousers, so to speak. And I was working 00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:55.600 with somebody who was trying to help me define 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:59.179 the brand. And I sort of went, oh, I'll send 00:16:59.179 --> 00:17:00.679 you the TED talk, but I've written it this far. 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:02.240 And, you know, just because you might be interested. 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:05.180 And she wrote back to me and went, why on earth 00:17:05.180 --> 00:17:06.900 is this not what you're leading with? This is 00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:10.619 everything you stand for. And I think I was very 00:17:10.619 --> 00:17:13.119 scared because to sometimes come out with a different 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.559 concept, you do wonder if you limit yourself 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:17.880 or you've shut people out. And then it went, 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.480 actually, I want to get up every day and run 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:23.039 this business. that's where my passion lies this 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.099 is where I feel I can make a difference and so 00:17:26.099 --> 00:17:29.859 all a lot of it made a big change in 2017 and 00:17:29.859 --> 00:17:33.299 you know the new website came out and all the 00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:36.279 branding but this big message behind it and at 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:38.259 that stage I was blogging so it was really good 00:17:38.259 --> 00:17:40.279 because I could really look deep into a subject 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:43.740 and write about it and share my feelings and 00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:46.599 opinions about it and it's interwoven into my 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:49.380 work and what I like to feel is that people hire 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:52.660 me as an interior designer But we'll look at 00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:55.500 the space in different ways and look at how they 00:17:55.500 --> 00:17:58.180 work in a space to try and deliver it on these 00:17:58.180 --> 00:18:00.440 multiple levels. It's all about asking the right 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.180 questions, isn't it? And I think the other big 00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:05.059 thing which I did is I slowed my process down 00:18:05.059 --> 00:18:08.079 a lot. So it starts with quite a hefty questionnaire, 00:18:08.140 --> 00:18:10.220 which everybody hates. You can see it on their 00:18:10.220 --> 00:18:13.539 face. You're going, I need to know. And then 00:18:13.539 --> 00:18:16.799 drilling down into that, but also slowing down 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.519 the process so you've got more room to maneuver 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:24.619 and more room to kind of, I think, step them 00:18:24.619 --> 00:18:27.339 through the design as you're building it. And 00:18:27.339 --> 00:18:32.339 the reason for that is that we can make alterations 00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:35.599 quicker earlier on. And I always say I listen 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:38.380 for the noises as well as what the feedback is 00:18:38.380 --> 00:18:40.660 because then I go, okay, what's the feedback? 00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:44.180 They go, oh, yeah, it's... Great. And you're 00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:47.240 like, OK, that's not a good noise. And I said, 00:18:47.299 --> 00:18:48.660 I'm not going to be insulted. Let's talk through 00:18:48.660 --> 00:18:50.519 it. Oh, maybe that's not a color for me. Maybe 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:53.000 this is it. Or, you know, and so therefore you're 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.180 moving it. But also getting to know people because 00:18:56.180 --> 00:18:58.000 people won't talk about their sleep patterns, 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:01.720 possibly straight out the gate. But you may learn 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:03.259 more about it when you're designing a bedroom. 00:19:04.270 --> 00:19:06.630 And about, you know, if they're a couple, you 00:19:06.630 --> 00:19:08.529 know, which one sleeps better? You know, which 00:19:08.529 --> 00:19:10.289 one's out like a light? Which one's, you know, 00:19:10.309 --> 00:19:13.650 awake at five o 'clock in the morning? And so 00:19:13.650 --> 00:19:16.309 you begin to know more those rhythms. They sort 00:19:16.309 --> 00:19:18.609 of come out in the design process as well. It's 00:19:18.609 --> 00:19:20.210 about building that relationship, isn't it? And 00:19:20.210 --> 00:19:22.190 the rapport. All of us have this thing within 00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:24.089 design. You have to ask quite personal questions. 00:19:24.789 --> 00:19:29.019 And it can feel quite intrusive because... But 00:19:29.019 --> 00:19:31.299 at the same time, you have to ask them because 00:19:31.299 --> 00:19:33.839 it's designing things correctly for the way, 00:19:33.859 --> 00:19:36.359 you know, there's a lot of generic psychology 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:39.000 I can understand, but it's actually then pinpointing 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.960 it down to them themselves. It's all about them, 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:46.420 isn't it? Yeah. It's so important. You place 00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:49.099 a strong emphasis on designing how people feel 00:19:49.099 --> 00:19:51.799 in a space. How do you uncover those emotional 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:54.789 needs in your clients? and translate them into 00:19:54.789 --> 00:19:58.210 a physical environment? It's very tricky because 00:19:58.210 --> 00:20:01.609 one is how can you say what a space feels like? 00:20:03.130 --> 00:20:05.069 I mean, we've all experienced it when we walk 00:20:05.069 --> 00:20:07.170 into, let's say, a restaurant and you go, oh, 00:20:07.190 --> 00:20:10.190 I don't feel comfortable here. But you couldn't 00:20:10.190 --> 00:20:14.250 always tell yourself why. So one with clients 00:20:14.250 --> 00:20:17.230 is it's about, as I just said, having a very 00:20:17.230 --> 00:20:20.549 large questionnaire and then going through it. 00:20:20.859 --> 00:20:22.319 you know, over them anything which sort of pops 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:25.500 up, asking questions. Even from the time I bid 00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:28.740 on a job, I will ask a sentence at the end and 00:20:28.740 --> 00:20:31.000 go, like, when we finish this job, how do you 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.880 want your home to feel? I always find it really 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.519 telling what their answer is because some people, 00:20:36.700 --> 00:20:39.019 a lot of the classics are, you know, I want it 00:20:39.019 --> 00:20:41.160 to feel warm, I want it to feel welcoming, I 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:44.420 want it to feel joyful. The ones which are always 00:20:44.420 --> 00:20:46.339 a bit alarm bells for me is I want it to have 00:20:46.339 --> 00:20:48.400 wow factor when other people walk in the house, 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:51.690 I want them to be blown away by it. One person 00:20:51.690 --> 00:20:53.849 is talking about how they want to feel in their 00:20:53.849 --> 00:20:55.769 home and the other person is wanting to impress 00:20:55.769 --> 00:20:59.930 other people. And there isn't to say that that 00:20:59.930 --> 00:21:03.349 is a bad thing. It's just not what holistic interior 00:21:03.349 --> 00:21:06.130 design is about. I can't design for the stranger, 00:21:06.269 --> 00:21:08.869 you know, Mabel next door who might pop over 00:21:08.869 --> 00:21:11.029 for tea and decide she does or doesn't like your 00:21:11.029 --> 00:21:14.420 tiling. I can decide to make a warm, happy, joyful 00:21:14.420 --> 00:21:19.359 home. And it's that first sentence and then building 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:21.880 on that, you know, taking a lot of the questionnaire. 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:25.299 I think the other thing is looking at it on two 00:21:25.299 --> 00:21:29.180 levels. One is that having a knowledge as much 00:21:29.180 --> 00:21:32.240 as humanly possible about things generically. 00:21:32.849 --> 00:21:35.930 So, you know, say with colour psychology, we 00:21:35.930 --> 00:21:37.529 all have an element of, you know, where we kind 00:21:37.529 --> 00:21:40.829 of know enough about it. Proximetrics is another 00:21:40.829 --> 00:21:43.210 really interesting about how close or how far 00:21:43.210 --> 00:21:45.210 people want to be. There's a great one which 00:21:45.210 --> 00:21:47.710 I love, which is called Prospect Refuge, which 00:21:47.710 --> 00:21:49.690 is how you feel in a space that you need to feel 00:21:49.690 --> 00:21:51.990 protected from the back. But like you've got 00:21:51.990 --> 00:21:55.890 a whole view ahead, which is why booths and restaurants, 00:21:56.049 --> 00:21:59.569 everyone loves them. Those are generic ways of 00:21:59.569 --> 00:22:02.130 looking. So always looking to make sure... What 00:22:02.130 --> 00:22:04.109 do you call that? It's called prospect refuge. 00:22:04.869 --> 00:22:07.410 Prospect refuge. So you're always prospecting. 00:22:07.410 --> 00:22:09.670 So you've got as wide a view as humanly possible. 00:22:10.390 --> 00:22:13.549 And therefore you can see danger coming. You 00:22:13.549 --> 00:22:15.809 can see if the lion's about to get you or whatever. 00:22:16.009 --> 00:22:18.450 But refuge is you'll protect it. So a lot of 00:22:18.450 --> 00:22:21.150 the time we feel uncomfortable if our backs are 00:22:21.150 --> 00:22:26.910 exposed. And so... that will dictate how you 00:22:26.910 --> 00:22:29.849 sit in a room. So if you have a sofa, let's say 00:22:29.849 --> 00:22:33.769 a corner sofa, you can almost plot exactly how 00:22:33.769 --> 00:22:35.970 people will sit on that sofa. You can go, right, 00:22:36.049 --> 00:22:37.990 that's the first seat that will go, that's seat 00:22:37.990 --> 00:22:39.509 number two, that's seat number three, and then 00:22:39.509 --> 00:22:40.690 people will start feeling more uncomfortable 00:22:40.690 --> 00:22:43.009 there and more uncomfortable there. So if you're 00:22:43.009 --> 00:22:45.289 looking at these in general, you can begin to 00:22:45.289 --> 00:22:47.130 look at that more like we're probably going to 00:22:47.130 --> 00:22:50.450 look generally how we lay a space out, taking 00:22:50.450 --> 00:22:52.730 into account that. There's going to be certain 00:22:52.730 --> 00:22:55.049 colours, colour psychology -wise, that I'm not 00:22:55.049 --> 00:22:59.329 going to favour in certain rooms. If somebody 00:22:59.329 --> 00:23:01.470 says, I want my bedroom to be relaxing, I'm probably 00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:04.009 not going to paint it bright red because that's 00:23:04.009 --> 00:23:06.089 going to have the opposite effect on people. 00:23:08.470 --> 00:23:11.650 Interestingly... Did you use Matthew Walker's 00:23:11.650 --> 00:23:16.269 book on sleep? No, not heard of that. So it became, 00:23:16.450 --> 00:23:22.690 bizarrely, quite the bestseller. But his book 00:23:22.690 --> 00:23:25.829 on sleep talks about what people physically and 00:23:25.829 --> 00:23:27.329 the circadian rhythm, what they need to go through 00:23:27.329 --> 00:23:30.430 to have a good night's sleep. So by understanding 00:23:30.430 --> 00:23:32.569 that, we're going to roll that out in a bedroom. 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:34.579 And it's more like you want your temperature 00:23:34.579 --> 00:23:37.339 to drop a little bit. So having a dark blue in 00:23:37.339 --> 00:23:39.240 there isn't a bad thing. Where loads of people 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:40.839 go, I don't, it's kind of cold. You're like, 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.200 I wouldn't dismiss it. So some of it's generic. 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:47.680 And then it gets into getting into the really 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.799 personal. So if we get on with the sleep again, 00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:52.740 if somebody, you've got a comment of ask, how 00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:57.339 do you sleep? And some people don't sleep very 00:23:57.339 --> 00:23:59.319 well. So then you've got to look at things like 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:01.680 you would as any designer. Do we need blackout 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:04.339 lining? Do we need this? Do we need the other? 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.180 Often I say to people, can we try and get your 00:24:07.180 --> 00:24:09.319 phone out of the room? But I haven't got control 00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:13.099 of that. That is their decision to do as they 00:24:13.099 --> 00:24:15.279 wish. But if we can kind of say, get an alarm 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.500 clock, that's going to do you better. The big 00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:21.660 thing, working with another client and also being 00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:25.099 a lady of a particular age, the effect of menopause. 00:24:25.259 --> 00:24:28.000 So if somebody is getting hot, but they may be 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:30.240 cold to begin with, do we need to layer more 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.539 the bed? these are the kind of things where you 00:24:32.539 --> 00:24:35.299 can get into the personal side. So you start 00:24:35.299 --> 00:24:37.440 with the big knowledge and get down to the personal. 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:39.920 But it's hard when you have to ask a woman, your 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.680 client, you know, do you struggle with sleep? 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:45.920 Is there any reason for that? You know, but some 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:47.920 people are very happy to discuss it and you've 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:50.400 got to roll with it. Yeah. Yeah. It's really 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:53.059 fascinating. Yeah. I mean, I don't sleep well 00:24:53.059 --> 00:24:55.299 at all. So I've read a lot about sleep. So I'm 00:24:55.299 --> 00:24:57.500 definitely going to read that. Oh, he does. And 00:24:57.500 --> 00:25:01.130 also he pops up a lot on, interviews and things 00:25:01.130 --> 00:25:02.490 like that because obviously i think his book 00:25:02.490 --> 00:25:04.630 went everyone went mad for his book so he pops 00:25:04.630 --> 00:25:06.910 up a lot on podcasts so if you want to go for 00:25:06.910 --> 00:25:09.769 the quick quick starter session just tune into 00:25:09.769 --> 00:25:13.450 one of them i will how do you design for wellness 00:25:13.450 --> 00:25:15.930 what are the non -negotiables in a space that 00:25:15.930 --> 00:25:18.690 truly supports mental and emotional well -being 00:25:18.690 --> 00:25:23.809 for you okay um with the wellness it's such a 00:25:23.809 --> 00:25:27.000 huge topic The first time I started to look at 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.559 it, actually, I found there was a place in the 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:34.119 US called the Well Building Institute. And they 00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:36.619 divide it by seven different areas which they 00:25:36.619 --> 00:25:39.200 look at. And luckily, I've written them down 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.339 so I don't lose them. So there's air, water, 00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:50.579 nourishment, light, fitness, comfort and mind. 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:54.559 Now, I think there's other things that plug into 00:25:54.559 --> 00:26:00.599 that as well. I think sleep, habit, lifestyle 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:04.960 is a huge thing, and posture and support. I mean, 00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:08.440 that could come under comfort, but if we're designing 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:13.640 the layout of a room and the TV sight lines are 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:16.960 off, are people watching it? at an angle? Are 00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:19.539 they scrunched up? Are they runkeled up? Are 00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:23.279 bar stools too high? There's ways of looking 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:26.299 at comfort where in actual fact we're physically 00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:28.380 supporting people properly with the furniture 00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:31.700 we're putting them in. It can be trickier because 00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:33.759 you can pick a sofa and you send them to the 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:38.160 sofa showroom and they'll sit on it in a very 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.259 formal way in the showroom and it turns out they 00:26:41.259 --> 00:26:44.970 sit like they're nesting in their own home. So 00:26:44.970 --> 00:26:47.589 they haven't always tested it to the fullness 00:26:47.589 --> 00:26:51.009 of the extent. But anyway, those are the seven 00:26:51.009 --> 00:26:53.750 which the Well Institute sort of talks about. 00:26:53.990 --> 00:26:56.470 Some of these are harder as an interior designer 00:26:56.470 --> 00:26:58.829 to completely cover, but we do it the best you 00:26:58.829 --> 00:27:03.569 possibly can. So let's say air. The best thing 00:27:03.569 --> 00:27:07.119 for air is where you live. So if you're in a 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:09.000 city, your air quality coming in your window 00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:11.960 is going to not be as good as your air quality 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:13.599 coming in if you're living in the middle of a 00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:18.579 field. I can't control that. An architect may 00:27:18.579 --> 00:27:22.299 be able to control how, when they build the building, 00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:24.539 how ventilation and everything works so there's 00:27:24.539 --> 00:27:27.420 more air coming through. On the other side of 00:27:27.420 --> 00:27:31.529 it, I can't control... If a client loves a scented 00:27:31.529 --> 00:27:36.109 candle or a Glade plug -in, or they use domestic 00:27:36.109 --> 00:27:39.529 household sprays which have more VOCs in it, 00:27:39.630 --> 00:27:42.470 I can't control that. But what can I control 00:27:42.470 --> 00:27:45.509 in that factor? I can control what VOCs are in 00:27:45.509 --> 00:27:48.109 the paint we put in. I can control whether or 00:27:48.109 --> 00:27:51.779 not a lot of furniture... When it gets delivered, 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.440 it's got a period which is called gassing off, 00:27:54.619 --> 00:27:58.839 which I just find very juvenile -y funny, which 00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:01.140 is that you get that kind of the new car smell, 00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:03.799 which is basically all the formaldehyde and all 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:06.220 the chemicals, you know, coming into the air. 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:12.519 You know, how can we... Minimize that. New furniture 00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:14.839 is going to have that more than reupholstered 00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:18.160 old furniture. So there's those sort of things 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:20.019 where you're trying to look at it as a designer. 00:28:20.140 --> 00:28:23.619 How can I do it? I think some of these are key. 00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:26.200 Nourishment. How do we design a kitchen that 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:28.880 cooking really is at the heart of it? Because 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.460 people can make a good meal. They're not ordering 00:28:31.460 --> 00:28:36.180 delivery. So fitness is another one which I find 00:28:36.180 --> 00:28:40.200 really intriguing. Because a lot of the time 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:42.519 we're trying to minimise how much people move 00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.779 to have to do something. But then the question 00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:49.579 is, do we actually need to change that so that 00:28:49.579 --> 00:28:53.299 people are moving more? And that's a really hard 00:28:53.299 --> 00:28:58.180 balance to make. Have you heard the thing about 00:28:58.180 --> 00:29:03.579 doctors? So when you go to the doctor, some doctors 00:29:03.579 --> 00:29:06.440 ring the little buzzer on their desk and go... 00:29:07.150 --> 00:29:09.190 Miss Roy, can you please come to the surgery 00:29:09.190 --> 00:29:11.730 down the hallway? And you do the walking to them. 00:29:12.869 --> 00:29:14.829 And then there's the other doctors who get up 00:29:14.829 --> 00:29:16.809 and come to the waiting room and go, Miss Roy, 00:29:16.890 --> 00:29:20.930 please follow me. What they found was the doctors 00:29:20.930 --> 00:29:22.730 who were getting up, so you're having to do that 00:29:22.730 --> 00:29:24.650 every five, ten minutes, get up, you're just 00:29:24.650 --> 00:29:26.450 taking a few steps down the hallway and then 00:29:26.450 --> 00:29:29.450 you're coming back again, were in better shape 00:29:29.450 --> 00:29:30.930 than the ones who were just ringing the bell 00:29:30.930 --> 00:29:33.349 at their desk. Because sedatory is like the new 00:29:33.349 --> 00:29:37.619 smoking, as we've all heard. And that's where 00:29:37.619 --> 00:29:40.880 it's all you've designed an element of movement 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.599 and fitness into a workspace. Next question is, 00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:48.119 how do we do that within a home? And will the 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.000 client be resilient to it? Yeah, because often 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.880 they don't want what they would see as a friction 00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:56.579 point. So you've got to look at that balance. 00:29:57.299 --> 00:30:01.299 So it's fascinating, isn't it? And the other 00:30:01.299 --> 00:30:05.420 thing, the problem with it is that. you can't 00:30:05.420 --> 00:30:07.900 always get it right can you it's like the client 00:30:07.900 --> 00:30:11.099 might say to you I want to move more but then 00:30:11.099 --> 00:30:12.880 you make them move more and they don't like it 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.140 you know you don't know if they're actually going 00:30:15.140 --> 00:30:17.960 to live it and accept it I suppose you have to 00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:21.140 go through go through it with them in quite a 00:30:21.140 --> 00:30:22.819 lot of depth to make sure that they are on board 00:30:22.819 --> 00:30:25.940 with it it's that weird thing is you know it's 00:30:25.940 --> 00:30:28.420 I think This is where I see things like habit 00:30:28.420 --> 00:30:30.799 come in as well. There's so many great things 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:33.160 to read about habit. But if people are wanting 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:37.180 to, you know, get fit more, you make it easier 00:30:37.180 --> 00:30:38.700 for them to get their wellies on to get out the 00:30:38.700 --> 00:30:43.319 front door. You know, this is where the personal 00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:46.299 comes in because it's about how that person's 00:30:46.299 --> 00:30:50.279 functions and just they're going. okay, I'm having 00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:52.720 to get to know you and I'm having to get to know 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:54.640 you down to the finite thing that you will probably 00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.400 maybe do something a little bit more than less, 00:30:57.539 --> 00:31:00.319 but I will never know whether this does or doesn't 00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:02.279 work because you're unlikely to phone and say, 00:31:02.420 --> 00:31:08.740 I'm walking more. Your TED Talk left a really 00:31:08.740 --> 00:31:11.940 impression on me. Especially your quote, interior 00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:14.460 design isn't about impressing strangers. It's 00:31:14.460 --> 00:31:16.839 about creating a space that feeds your soul every 00:31:16.839 --> 00:31:18.779 day. And I'm like, I've got goosebumps just saying 00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:21.900 that now. Can you tell us the story behind the 00:31:21.900 --> 00:31:25.539 idea and what inspired you? How did it shape 00:31:25.539 --> 00:31:27.119 your approach going forward? I think we've kind 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:28.680 of covered a little bit of that, haven't we? 00:31:29.099 --> 00:31:34.390 I think it's about... people -centric design, 00:31:34.650 --> 00:31:38.769 which all design should be. That's the very key 00:31:38.769 --> 00:31:43.509 of what ergonomics is. But we've taken people 00:31:43.509 --> 00:31:46.849 out of it. And that was the thing for me, was 00:31:46.849 --> 00:31:49.250 that it was about impressing people. It was about 00:31:49.250 --> 00:31:51.789 having it look pretty. It was about this sort 00:31:51.789 --> 00:31:54.410 of side of it. And I was 100 % in that camp because 00:31:54.410 --> 00:31:56.150 I felt that that has been what I've been told 00:31:56.150 --> 00:32:00.890 to do. And I began to see it differently. And 00:32:00.890 --> 00:32:06.809 I began to see that, It's almost peddling it 00:32:06.809 --> 00:32:09.910 back. If you buy a hamster, we look to how we 00:32:09.910 --> 00:32:12.950 can make them happy in their cages. Why do we 00:32:12.950 --> 00:32:16.849 not do this for ourselves? We live in these houses 00:32:16.849 --> 00:32:20.269 and they are our homes and that means so much 00:32:20.269 --> 00:32:24.069 to us. And we talk about there being a haven 00:32:24.069 --> 00:32:27.109 and somewhere safer for us to be and a loving 00:32:27.109 --> 00:32:31.619 place. That is what we should be aiming to create. 00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:34.180 And that is very much what I want to create, 00:32:34.380 --> 00:32:41.000 is that people feel at their best when they're 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.900 in those doors, living in those spaces. I think 00:32:44.900 --> 00:32:47.880 it really relates, because I do a lot more commercial 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:51.299 than residential. But for me, the holistic thing 00:32:51.299 --> 00:32:53.380 is just something I naturally do because I look 00:32:53.380 --> 00:32:55.700 at brand. So I'm always going back to the brand. 00:32:55.839 --> 00:32:58.579 What's the brand? What's the story? and keep 00:32:58.579 --> 00:33:02.000 tagging that back. So everything that I do is 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:05.799 kind of related. But I really loved listening 00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:09.000 to your talk because, and I love this theory, 00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:12.579 because it is how you do it in Resi. It's how 00:33:12.579 --> 00:33:15.400 you do that. Everything comes back to the brand. 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:17.960 In Resi, everything comes back to the person. 00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:21.220 Who are they? What are they doing? And I think, 00:33:21.259 --> 00:33:22.779 interestingly, in commercial, and that is where 00:33:22.779 --> 00:33:25.619 we're talking in commercial, psychology has been 00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:28.779 used on us for years. but like in a bad way. 00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:33.799 So, you know, within shops, they understood how 00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:38.299 a person works to their best within a shop. And 00:33:38.299 --> 00:33:40.660 they would know that if you had things folded 00:33:40.660 --> 00:33:43.119 up and you touch something, apparently you make 00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:45.700 more of a personal connection to it. So therefore 00:33:45.700 --> 00:33:47.960 you're more likely to go, well, yes, I do love 00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:50.779 this sweater. And you go to the till. How you 00:33:50.779 --> 00:33:53.039 design a changing room, how you design the flow, 00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:55.920 how you do this. A lot of this has been used 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:59.859 in commercial environments since the year dot. 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:04.440 You know, it's not a coincidence that the bakery 00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:07.259 oil smells of bread. And all the bread's in a 00:34:07.259 --> 00:34:09.920 package. It's pumped in. You know, these things 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:12.159 have been used for a long, long time to actually 00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:14.639 press our little psychological buttons to have 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:20.800 us form a particular behavior. And that's what 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:22.980 I quite liked on doing is I'm picking it like 00:34:22.980 --> 00:34:25.179 dark magic and then going, how could we use it 00:34:25.179 --> 00:34:29.280 for good? I still think there's a long way, you 00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:32.340 know, with certain commercial areas. I'm fascinated 00:34:32.340 --> 00:34:34.820 with them. I just don't happen to do as many. 00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:37.639 I think the office is the most underutilized 00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:40.739 area and where we could make a huge difference 00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:43.159 to people's lives with how we design them and 00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:45.000 how approaching them in a holistic approach. 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:47.920 And some of the research behind it, some of it's 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:50.840 terrifying when you read some about how people 00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:56.829 are in a... open plan office and how it can push 00:34:56.829 --> 00:35:01.570 their mental health to its limits and yet it's 00:35:01.570 --> 00:35:05.090 so underutilized with how we can change that 00:35:05.090 --> 00:35:06.809 and how we could therefore change people's work 00:35:06.809 --> 00:35:09.909 lives and when people at work so much what an 00:35:09.909 --> 00:35:12.280 amazing difference that would make Or how would 00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:14.320 it change companies' productivity if people actually 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.119 wanted to go to an office instead of sitting 00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:19.460 at home going, I'm happier here, thanks? I think 00:35:19.460 --> 00:35:21.679 COVID has been brilliant for that because a lot 00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:23.800 of people have gone home and stayed there because 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:25.679 they don't like going to the office because they 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:28.739 don't like it. And I'm working with quite a few 00:35:28.739 --> 00:35:31.460 different companies since COVID. I'm working 00:35:31.460 --> 00:35:32.980 with one at the moment in central London where 00:35:32.980 --> 00:35:36.139 they can't get their staff back into the office. 00:35:36.260 --> 00:35:39.199 So they're having to refurbish and they're having 00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:42.489 to create like little pods so people can have 00:35:42.489 --> 00:35:45.610 private conversations and and and private offices 00:35:45.610 --> 00:35:47.690 and lots of little breakout areas that people 00:35:47.690 --> 00:35:49.829 can use because people don't want to sit in the 00:35:49.829 --> 00:35:52.030 open plan and have that conversation with whoever 00:35:52.030 --> 00:35:54.050 it is they're having yeah having that with and 00:35:54.050 --> 00:35:56.750 we have gone very much from having everyone having 00:35:56.750 --> 00:35:58.829 their own office haven't we in a lot of places 00:35:58.829 --> 00:36:01.510 not necessarily in central london but there's 00:36:01.510 --> 00:36:06.079 there's been a massive shift towards the open 00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:10.739 plan office. And I kind of like it, but sometimes 00:36:10.739 --> 00:36:13.039 I don't. We've got an open plan office. I've 00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:16.400 got to get a bit woolly about it, but I think 00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:19.260 there's an optimum amount of people we can all 00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:22.320 spend time with. So sometimes the higher it gets, 00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:24.599 you get an acoustic problem anyway. You get more 00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:28.829 and more people, more and more spread out. We're 00:36:28.829 --> 00:36:31.570 all much more plugged into devices and music 00:36:31.570 --> 00:36:34.150 anyway. There's a slight disconnect there anyway. 00:36:35.110 --> 00:36:38.150 But there is this idea that if we start creating 00:36:38.150 --> 00:36:42.289 more individual areas, so it's not just the pod, 00:36:42.469 --> 00:36:44.449 but even if we're just into a table of eight 00:36:44.449 --> 00:36:49.150 instead of a room of 150, and that people can 00:36:49.150 --> 00:36:52.079 feel that they... are happy there and they've 00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:54.519 got you know some autonomy there and stuff like 00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:56.579 that I think there's there's a lot which could 00:36:56.579 --> 00:36:59.579 be done but even small offices so you know I'm 00:36:59.579 --> 00:37:01.840 in Tunbridge Wells and we recently redid an office 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.539 and it was like a two three man office and he 00:37:05.539 --> 00:37:07.079 was very much like I want it to be a nice place 00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:09.000 to be and he'd already looked at a number of 00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:12.179 office designers and then he came to me because 00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:14.360 he went I just keep being shown like six desks 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:17.400 in a room And we ended up turning it into more 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:19.400 of a living room. And it has a coffee table that 00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:21.599 can turn into, it kind of starts a coffee table. 00:37:21.659 --> 00:37:23.460 You can pop into a desk and then it can pop into 00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:25.840 a table. So they can have it like a boardroom. 00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:27.619 And they go, well, we entertain now. We all spend 00:37:27.619 --> 00:37:31.360 more time in the evening. And you're going, yay. 00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:34.659 That's how it should be. It should be different. 00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:37.199 It's that coming at it from a different angle. 00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:42.639 But offices. Do you know what I love about the 00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:47.019 holistic? side of of something like a restaurant 00:37:47.019 --> 00:37:49.739 I think somewhere like a public space like that 00:37:49.739 --> 00:37:52.639 people like to be told people like to understand 00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:55.920 the space so if you tell them what to do through 00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:59.119 like the flooring this is this is the this is 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.840 the gangway yeah and and this is this is where 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:03.579 the chairs and tables go kind of thing and the 00:38:03.579 --> 00:38:05.980 floor is different yeah that people love things 00:38:05.980 --> 00:38:08.420 like that and they think because it's clear it's 00:38:08.420 --> 00:38:09.920 really clear it's clear to the staff it's clear 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:12.320 to all the customers everyone knows where they're 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:14.320 going. And I think that's one of the things that 00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:18.679 I really focus on for holistic commercial space 00:38:18.679 --> 00:38:22.179 is that kind of telling people what to do, where 00:38:22.179 --> 00:38:25.159 to go, having clear signage and making sure that 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:28.179 everyone understands. You can kind of like, almost 00:38:28.179 --> 00:38:29.960 with interior design, you can always kind of 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:33.139 like control what happens with the flow of things 00:38:33.139 --> 00:38:36.280 and with the flooring or with the lighting and 00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:39.519 everything, all kind of. like going in the same 00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:41.400 direction yeah and what I love in restaurants 00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:43.760 as well which we you know well done is when they 00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:45.920 can create the idea that you can have an intimate 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:48.599 space so there's just like two of you at a table 00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:51.320 but with the lighting and you can literally have 00:38:51.320 --> 00:38:53.000 people sat next to you but you can still feel 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:56.860 like there's just a pair of you um I think that's 00:38:56.860 --> 00:38:59.719 genius and I've always find very peculiar I remember 00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:02.559 there was um a pub where I used to work and they 00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:04.340 had it was a really lovely place to go and then 00:39:04.340 --> 00:39:07.059 where all the seating worked And then they just 00:39:07.059 --> 00:39:09.739 moved everything around, but they didn't change 00:39:09.739 --> 00:39:13.860 the lighting. And suddenly it was so off. You 00:39:13.860 --> 00:39:15.260 couldn't put your finger in. It was like nowhere 00:39:15.260 --> 00:39:17.380 you really wanted to sit. But it's that thing 00:39:17.380 --> 00:39:19.679 of being able to create space you want to sit 00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:22.380 in, where you kind of go, here we are. We all 00:39:22.380 --> 00:39:24.239 might be around some people. So this is where 00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:28.460 Proximetrics comes in, you know. And just they're 00:39:28.460 --> 00:39:31.039 going, it's about how I can be with two people 00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:34.150 while still surrounded by a lot of people. and 00:39:34.150 --> 00:39:36.530 it's the social space and the personal space. 00:39:37.070 --> 00:39:39.409 It's really fascinating. This is my nerd thing. 00:39:39.449 --> 00:39:40.829 When you go to a restaurant, my husband's there 00:39:40.829 --> 00:39:42.550 looking at the menu, and I'm like, right, so 00:39:42.550 --> 00:39:44.750 how's this working? What's going on here? How's 00:39:44.750 --> 00:39:48.849 this working? You go, this is great. Since you've 00:39:48.849 --> 00:39:52.389 done your TED Talk, though, has your message 00:39:52.389 --> 00:39:54.789 evolved or deepened in any way? Has it changed? 00:39:54.989 --> 00:39:56.829 It was quite a few years ago, wasn't it? Yeah, 00:39:56.949 --> 00:39:59.230 yeah. It feels longer and longer ago. Well, it 00:39:59.230 --> 00:40:00.929 is longer and longer ago. Every year it passes, 00:40:00.989 --> 00:40:06.960 but I think, It so released who I, you know, 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:10.199 what I believed in that I just keep reading more 00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:13.659 and more and more. And so therefore more plugs 00:40:13.659 --> 00:40:17.199 in to my knowledge and the way I want to approach 00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:20.340 things. At the moment, one of the things I've 00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:24.110 become... slightly more obsessed with trying 00:40:24.110 --> 00:40:26.550 to put the pieces together is about identity 00:40:26.550 --> 00:40:29.650 and space and especially when you're working 00:40:29.650 --> 00:40:32.409 as an interior designer there's that point of 00:40:32.409 --> 00:40:35.610 like where's the crossover between your identity 00:40:35.610 --> 00:40:39.360 and your client's identity And normally people 00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:42.340 have hired me because they like what I do. And 00:40:42.340 --> 00:40:45.000 so therefore already my designs speak to something 00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:48.320 they like. So that's a bit easier. But it's then 00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:50.719 making sure it feels like their space and their 00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:54.539 identity. And it's hard to talk about that in 00:40:54.539 --> 00:40:57.260 a holistic way because surely that's what we're 00:40:57.260 --> 00:41:00.469 all doing. But yet again, I think it's... that 00:41:00.469 --> 00:41:02.670 goes back to the pretty awful design is that 00:41:02.670 --> 00:41:04.889 when people are gleaning stuff from magazines 00:41:04.889 --> 00:41:07.489 and looking at what's in trend sometimes they 00:41:07.489 --> 00:41:10.590 forget to really put their finger on who they 00:41:10.590 --> 00:41:13.670 are and what is their identity and therefore 00:41:13.670 --> 00:41:16.409 what needs to be in a space to say this is who 00:41:16.409 --> 00:41:18.570 I am and this is how I like to represent myself 00:41:18.570 --> 00:41:20.929 and this is why it's my home not someone else's 00:41:20.929 --> 00:41:23.789 home I think there is some designers though that 00:41:23.789 --> 00:41:26.250 have a style isn't there and you go to that designer 00:41:26.250 --> 00:41:30.139 because you like their style but I'm and quite 00:41:30.139 --> 00:41:31.699 a lot of people in commercial are a bit like 00:41:31.699 --> 00:41:35.980 that but I'm definitely in your camp I like latch 00:41:35.980 --> 00:41:38.659 on I like kind of go into somebody and I go what's 00:41:38.659 --> 00:41:41.260 your business or what's your who are you and 00:41:41.260 --> 00:41:45.360 people come to my website and they say all of 00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:47.159 your designs are so different like what's your 00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:50.159 style I don't think people see that much difference 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.219 in my stuff really now it's really interesting 00:41:52.219 --> 00:41:56.340 and I think I think it was because I started, 00:41:56.460 --> 00:41:59.000 it wasn't that I was looking to have just one 00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:02.099 particular house style. It's that certain work 00:42:02.099 --> 00:42:05.280 began to pop up on my website and people loved 00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:08.840 it. So I kept being hired to do more of that. 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:11.639 And it's the fact that I loved it. So I think 00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:14.179 people always go, oh, you like color. I had one 00:42:14.179 --> 00:42:16.400 person go, oh, you use a lot of green. And they're 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:18.280 going, well, one, when you're working with biophilic 00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:20.820 design or, you know, relaxing spaces, certain 00:42:20.820 --> 00:42:24.860 colors come up more than other colors. So it's 00:42:24.860 --> 00:42:26.619 a really hard thing, where you don't mean to 00:42:26.619 --> 00:42:29.239 have a house start, but suddenly you do. And 00:42:29.239 --> 00:42:32.239 you're like, okay, I don't know how we can, you 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:35.400 know, move this sideways, but, you know. I suppose 00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:37.480 it's a lot easier for me, because I'm working 00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:39.340 with different businesses. So one business might 00:42:39.340 --> 00:42:42.980 have a brand that's red, and I'm being very sort 00:42:42.980 --> 00:42:45.719 of presumptuous here, because sometimes the interior 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:47.460 design isn't the same colour as a brand, but 00:42:47.460 --> 00:42:51.550 quite often it can be very close. Especially 00:42:51.550 --> 00:42:53.730 in offices, you want the logo on the wall at 00:42:53.730 --> 00:42:57.210 some point. So, yeah, you have to kind of design 00:42:57.210 --> 00:43:00.909 around that. So, yeah, but yes, it's fascinating. 00:43:01.349 --> 00:43:03.889 Yeah, well, I did a barrister's chambers in London. 00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.559 And of course, I think now I look at that and 00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:10.199 it's much more neutral with this little bit. 00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:13.360 I would say that I'm probably sitting in the 00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:16.059 classic contemporary band, which is quite good 00:43:16.059 --> 00:43:17.920 because sometimes you can shove more contemporary 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:20.199 and you can shove more classic, but I'm never 00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:23.619 going to be a minimalist, shiny surface. And 00:43:23.619 --> 00:43:26.460 so it was probably shoving a little bit more 00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:29.300 classic. It was kind of in the heart of the... 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:32.179 I want to say the legal area now because I can't 00:43:32.179 --> 00:43:35.280 remember. And so I would say that looks very 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:39.659 different than a house I did in Tennessee where 00:43:39.659 --> 00:43:42.360 it was really colourful and they let me really 00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:45.820 go to town. But I still think you can see my 00:43:45.820 --> 00:43:47.980 hand in it. I think there's still an approach 00:43:47.980 --> 00:43:50.380 and you can almost see it in there. So it's not 00:43:50.380 --> 00:43:52.559 that I've deliberately gone, house style. It's 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:54.780 just like, I think you can spot it's my work. 00:43:55.880 --> 00:43:59.539 That's good, that's good. Phoebe, your work is 00:43:59.539 --> 00:44:02.380 such a beautiful blend of heart and function 00:44:02.380 --> 00:44:04.539 and I think it's exactly what the design world 00:44:04.539 --> 00:44:07.760 needs right now. For anyone starting a new project, 00:44:07.940 --> 00:44:10.119 what's one piece of advice that you might give 00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:16.179 them? I've divided this into who I'd be speaking 00:44:16.179 --> 00:44:22.460 to. I think with designers, I would say that 00:44:22.460 --> 00:44:24.539 if you're looking to take a more holistic approach, 00:44:24.820 --> 00:44:29.400 don't panic, you've got the tools. already it's 00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:32.260 more that it's coming at it from a different 00:44:32.260 --> 00:44:35.539 angle that if you've been taught how to lay out 00:44:35.539 --> 00:44:38.000 a space you've been taught how to decorate a 00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:41.360 space it's just the understanding that your goal 00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:44.320 might be a little bit different so it's that 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:45.820 if you're looking to wellness you're looking 00:44:45.820 --> 00:44:50.300 to sleep you're using that same toolbox but you're 00:44:50.300 --> 00:44:53.969 just building it a little bit different so I 00:44:53.969 --> 00:44:55.849 think that's the thing which almost blew my own 00:44:55.849 --> 00:44:57.750 mind is it didn't mean I needed to be a different 00:44:57.750 --> 00:44:59.969 designer. It's just you need to weave it through 00:44:59.969 --> 00:45:03.750 a bit of a different way. For the layman who's 00:45:03.750 --> 00:45:07.690 doing their own design, remember the design bit 00:45:07.690 --> 00:45:10.230 of it. And I think that's where I see a lot of 00:45:10.230 --> 00:45:13.349 people where sometimes I'm called in retrospectively 00:45:13.349 --> 00:45:16.579 after they've sort of done it. and most of them 00:45:16.579 --> 00:45:18.719 have forgotten to actually take time out to design. 00:45:18.940 --> 00:45:20.900 They've kind of run into the implementation and 00:45:20.900 --> 00:45:22.960 then they've got a builder yelling at them, you 00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:25.159 know, I need some tiling, Bob's coming tomorrow. 00:45:26.110 --> 00:45:28.269 And they're making quick decisions. They're looking 00:45:28.269 --> 00:45:31.269 at Pinterest. But they've also created spaces 00:45:31.269 --> 00:45:33.130 a bit disjointed. Because they go, we'll just 00:45:33.130 --> 00:45:35.050 have a little bit of tiling here. And then we'll 00:45:35.050 --> 00:45:37.510 maybe do a shelf over there. And they forget 00:45:37.510 --> 00:45:40.250 to see it as a whole. So just take a step back. 00:45:40.269 --> 00:45:43.269 Take time. Enjoy the design process. Work it 00:45:43.269 --> 00:45:45.969 all out on paper. And just look at it as a space 00:45:45.969 --> 00:45:48.389 as a whole instead of a collection of little 00:45:48.389 --> 00:45:52.809 Pinterest features. And then it's more cohesive. 00:45:52.849 --> 00:45:55.289 And people then feel more cohesive using it. 00:45:57.259 --> 00:45:59.420 Amazing. Thank you so much. Oh, well, thank you 00:45:59.420 --> 00:46:02.719 so much. If today's conversation resonated with 00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:04.860 you, don't forget to follow, share, and leave 00:46:04.860 --> 00:46:07.599 us a comment. What's your biggest takeaway from 00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:09.940 Phoebe's approach? And if you're here at Clark 00:46:09.940 --> 00:46:12.099 and Mel Design Week, come by the Solar Showroom 00:46:12.099 --> 00:46:14.380 to see where this episode was recorded and explore 00:46:14.380 --> 00:46:17.360 some amazing surfaces. You'll find links to Phoebe's 00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:20.199 TED Talk and website in the show notes. Thank 00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:21.139 you very much for joining us. Well, thank you. 00:46:28.429 --> 00:46:31.230 Thank you.