Welcome to the Interior Design Podcast. I'm Hayley
Roy, a commercial interior designer with a passion
for creating beautiful functional spaces. Over
the years, I've worked on a variety of projects
and have accumulated a wealth of knowledge, which
I'm excited to share with you. I started this
podcast because I believe in the power of interior
design. So much of what we need to know as designers,
you won't learn in a classroom. Whether you're
an aspiring designer, tackling your home project,
or a seasoned pro, this podcast is for you. Season
two is here, and I couldn't be more thrilled
to kick things off with some fresh energy and
exciting changes. This season, I'm joined by
not one, but two incredible co -hosts, Hannah
Denny and Scarlett Mallett. Together, we're diving
deeper into the world of design to bring you
more perspectives, lively debates, and all the
tips and tricks you need to thrive. We're here
to offer practical advice, discuss the latest
trends and give you unfiltered, real -world insights.
Expect honest conversations, a bit of humour
and maybe even the occasional strong opinion
and language. Remember, if it's not fun, we're
not doing it. And if you're a sound editor looking
for a fun collaboration, let us know. We'd love
to have you on board. Thanks for tuning in to
season two of the Interior Design Podcast. Hello
and welcome to the Grieve Then Achieve and the
Interior Design Podcast. We are collaborating.
Oh my God, I'm so excited. This is cat nuts.
Kate. Nuds. I call you Kat. I know. It doesn't
matter. It's actually Catherine, but that's far
too long. No one ever calls me that. This is
Catherine. She's in trouble now. Catherine. This
is Catherine. And Catherine is a grief counsellor.
Well, you're about to be, aren't you? Yes. You're
about to graduate. Yeah. So I'm a grief coach
at the moment, but soon to be a integrative counsellor.
But I will be solely focusing on bereavement
and loss. So Kate and I. Kat, I don't know what
to call you now. Kat and I met at college when
we were 17, 18. I think I was 17, you were 18.
Yes, I swear. And we were both older, weren't
we? I've deferred a year and you've deferred
two years. Yeah. And we went and did a media
studies course. We did. We were doing this. I
know, right? 20 odd years ago. I know. And I
think that's one of the reasons why we've both
now got podcasts because we've got, we had that
experience and now we're kind of like, we're
going back to that. Yeah. And I think it's like,
it's so cool. I was so excited about kind of
getting together with you to do it because it's
like, oh my God, I feel like we're back. We've
gone 20 years back. We're 17 again. Yeah, I don't
think I want to be 17 again. But I mean, I never
did anything with the media studies, but now
I feel like, you know, it wasn't a complete waste
of two years. So what we're going to do today
is we're going to talk about grieving meets home
decor interior design. I've learned a whole load
of things from Kate. Tell us how you got into
being a grief coach counsellor. Yes, well, yes,
I was a recruiter for many, many years, so quite
a different background. But then my mum had cancer
and I watched her die, basically. And I had just
the worst grief experience. It was so unexpected.
I was absolutely battered by grief. It was like
a tidal wave and it changed every part of me.
It changed what I wanted to do for a living.
It knocked my confidence. It literally changed
me. And the doctor, I went to the doctor about
it because I just I thought there was something
wrong with me because it was it was sort of continuing.
You know, I thought we had her funeral and then
I just expected everything to be fine again.
And I thought I'd go back to work. And but that
didn't happen. And so I went to the doctor and
they gave me antidepressants. And I just wish
they'd said to me, Kate, you're grieving. And
I had these antidepressants and it wasn't what
I wanted. I didn't really want to go down that
route. Did you take them? No. I was going to
and then, oh, I was humming and hawing about
it and I didn't know what to do. And then I started
to look into grief. And I just started to think,
like, what am I going through? I think I started
to Google bereavement and grief. And then all
these symptoms came up and I was like, wow, why
is no one talking about this? Like, it changed
every part of me. I watched other members of
the family kind of all went back to work and
they sort of got on with their lives. And I was
like, why am I different? What's happening to
me? And then I realised, doing more and more
grief work and reading more books and talking
to more and more people about their own grieving
experiences, that it's just so different for
everybody. And I was just like, but this is going
to happen to everybody, right? We're all going
to have some sort of loss in our lives. And there's
so much loss. There's pet loss, baby loss, divorce,
health loss, finances. But we don't talk about
the grieving process that we then go through.
And I was like, no, no, I've got to do something
about this. I just never wanted anybody to feel
the way I felt. It was so unexpected. The grief
was so unexpected. I just didn't equate it to
grief, which sounds bizarre. But it was only
when I started to kind of really learn about
grief, I just thought, I need to do something
about this. I was already career coaching, so
I did quite a lot of education around grief and
then moved over into grief coaching. But I think
grief coaching is quite different, very different
from counselling. And actually people, when they're
first bereaved or going through a loss, they
potentially need more counselling. and then perhaps
further down the line, and with some counselling
when they're in a different space, then coaching.
So I would like to be able to take people on
a whole journey with me so that when they need
counselling, they can have me as their counsellor,
but also when they're ready for coaching, we
can do coaching as well. So it's a very long
-winded reply, but it's been such a journey.
I've seen you go through it, and it's actually
so nice that you're helping other people, and
you're so enjoying it, aren't you? It sounds
weird, I know, but... I feel so privileged to
have people sit in front of me and tell me about
their grief journeys. And it might be from, you
know, a month ago, it might be from 10, 20 years
ago. But it's such a privilege to sit with someone
who is grieving and to walk that journey with
them. It just, I am so... I feel so lucky to
have found this, even though it was through quite
tragic circumstances. I feel like something good
came out of something that was pretty horrendous.
How did you get into interior design? I think
my interior design journey started when I worked
on yachts. I worked on super yachts when I was
younger and I used to help, not necessarily interior
decorate, but I used to arrange flowers and arrange
table dressings and things like that. And I got
to know... the owners of the yacht and i got
to know their taste and i watched them design
certain elements of the yacht and i think that
really inspired me and i was i was doing a lot
of cleaning which i love i love cleaning um i
was kind of like just really you know dressing
everything you know um i suppose styling really
yeah we were doing a lot of flower arranging
things like that and and i i just loved it and
i came back to the uk um after three years traveling
and then went to i went to work for my dad and
my dad owned a commercial interior fit out company
so it's sort of almost i mean i'd come from like
a six star and i'm kind of like how to lower
my standards a little bit um and less sunshine
i suppose as well um and so we were selling furniture
sort of you know a lot of low -end products but
I was meeting clients I was helping space plan
I was helping doing mood boards and things like
that so I was kind of doing that kind of thing
I loved it and towards the end when I worked
for dad I knew that I wanted to have my own business.
I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but
I knew that I loved interior design and I'd done
interior design courses. So I thought, well,
it was kind of the natural progression and I
ended up sort of project managing as well because
I'd been a managing director before. It was kind
of like a natural thing for me to do that as
well because I like making things happen and
I'm a bit of a control freak. So yeah, so then
after our business shrunk in COVID, I was kind
of like missing... I was missing teaching people
because I had a much bigger team before. And
then my son got diagnosed with ADHD. And I found
this podcast called The Adult's ADHD Podcast,
which I absolutely binged listened to. And I
loved them because they were so real and so normal
in my eyes anyway, because I think I've got ADHD
too. Well, I know I have. I listened to this
and what I got from each episode was education.
I learned something from every episode. I learned
something really, really good that I could take
away and use in my everyday life. And I was like,
oh my God. And after I'd sort of binge listened
to this, got diagnosed with ADHD and decided
that I needed to maybe focus on my interior design
career again outside of my workplace or like
on the road, I decided that I wanted to find
an interior design podcast that was going to
teach me like this other one. could i find it
no so then i i thought well okay let's do it
and obviously the media studies train well i
only lasted three months in my media studies
course but you and you did the whole course i
managed two whole years yeah yeah but i loved
that like that whole kind of we were kind of
microphones in hand and yeah we were we had a
little tape recorder that we used to carry around
I mean this is all a little bit more technical
than what we had but yeah it was it was fun it
was interviewing people and it was learning about
people and it was being educated by other people
I think that was my that's why I loved it so
much because it was listening to people's lived
experiences you know full circle 20 years later
that's what I do it just happens to be from a
grief perspective but I remember you telling
me about that podcast like every episode you
would call me blah you need to listen to this
because they're talking about this and they're
talking might listen to it. I don't know if I
ever did. But I know you loved it. You were obsessed.
I loved it. But it was just because they were
so real. And I think that was one of the things
I wanted to do with the interior design podcast
is not make it, you know, a lot of the interior
design podcasts that I've listened to are really
good, but they tend to be very kind of interviewing
or like, oh, this is a project that you've done
or like talk about someone's career, which is
great. But I really wanted to teach people about
interior design, you know, so I wanted to teach
people about time. and about fabric specification
and how to do this and you know like and and
i i we've got a podcast coming up soon about
cdm which i feel really strongly about because
a lot of residential interior designers in the
uk don't know that they need to follow the cdm
regulations which is construction design management
it's all very boring geeky stuff which interior
designers don't really want to do but it's the
law and a lot of interior designers that i've
met who are in resi don't know that and it's
that kind of thing like I've got so much in my
brain that I know I want to be able to share
that and I also want to be able to learn so every
guest that I come in I mean I've listened to
your podcast as well and it's so lovely because
you know you've got these people who are sharing
their experiences and you know I'm like sitting
there I haven't lost either of my parents and
some people are talking about losing their parents
and I think there's this thing with your podcast
where People are being really, really honest
and open and actually talking about how they
feel about losing somebody. And I'm like, oh,
my God, I'm going to have to go through this.
But actually, knowing some of the things that
I've heard on your podcast, I kind of feel a
little bit more, not that I'm going to ever be
prepared to lose my parents, but I feel a little
bit like, oh, OK, that's what's going to happen.
So I know what's going to happen. That was my
problem with it. I just wasn't prepared for grief
because I didn't really understand the grieving
process and what I would go through. And I didn't
realize it would affect my body, my mind, every
part of me. just being able to have these conversations
with people. And, you know, we are quite open
and we're all very vulnerable, but that's the
point of the podcast. And I always make sure
that the opening part of the podcast is that
if you're not, you know, happy to talk about
death and dying, then please don't listen because
we do talk about it. But there's, you know, there's
suicide. There's, I think I've said there's baby
loss. There's, you know, parents dying. There's
also losing parents to dementia. So you've got
the anticipatory grief where you're losing them.
before you actually physically lose them as well.
And there's just so many conversations that just,
you know, other people out there are going to
go through this. And if we're not talking about
it, you feel like an island. You just feel like
you're the only person and that you just don't
really understand what's going on. So there is
that education piece to try and help people know
that they're not alone, I think, really. And
we're not, you know, we're all going through
the same shit, aren't we, really? I mean, people
just, I mean, I think... now compared to when
we were young people talk about things a lot
more we were talking about this earlier when
we like when we were young be like you know children
should be seen and not heard and now now my son's
got a little pillow with all his emotions on
it you know we were encouraging him to talk about
what emotion it is he's feeling and things like
that which is lovely hooray um we were also saying
that that makes everyone woke So, like, what
do we want? Do we want work? Or do we want, like,
to be heard? What do we want? Yeah. But, no,
I think that's the thing as well. Understanding
your feelings. You don't necessarily always have
to talk about them if you don't want to. But
understanding what you're feeling and sitting
with it. And that's part of what we talk about
a lot in grief. It's quite alien for us to sit
in sadness or anger or whatever's coming up.
But, actually, sometimes you've got to do that.
And it's quite hard. Yeah, that was one of the
things that I learned when I had some counselling
a few years ago. I was talking about, so my son's
father was very absent when he was younger. And
I always struggled with the idea of how am I
going to help him not get hurt by this? And I
remember my counsellor saying, you can't. He's
going to be hurt by this, but you just need to
sit with him in his pain and be there for him.
And then... you know that's the only thing you
can do and i suppose that's the same with grief
yeah you just have to sit in it you have to recognize
it sit in it feel it feel it but there's some
you know there's there's there's some things
that we can do to be more resilient um But it's,
you know, I ate my feelings. I didn't recognise
my feelings. I didn't know what they were. I
didn't understand them. And I just ate and drank
my way through. And that was my coping mechanism.
And it didn't necessarily work. But we all have
our own different coping mechanisms. But the
fact that we're sitting here talking today about
it, how different is that? I mean, it's just
brilliant. It's amazing. It is. So we've got
cosy blankets. Yes, we have. And we've got green.
And we're going to talk about grief and we're
also going to be talking about how we can make
ourselves feel better by the things that we surround
ourselves at home. Yes. So one of the things
I wanted to ask you about before we start talking
about interior design, because obviously that's
what I want to talk about. This is a world so
different. You talk about interior design. I
shut down. I buy new builds. So I have white
walls. I don't have to think about it. We could
not be more different. And yet we've been friends
for 20 odd years. I know, right? It's rad, isn't
it? But I think there's something that you said
to me earlier about the five stages of grief.
I feel like... there's this, not stigma, but
there's this thing out there about the five stages
of grief and actually it's not grief, is it?
Can you tell us, can you tell our listeners about
it? When I first started, you know, like what
is wrong with me, sort of started looking at
grief, it's one of the first things that comes
up, the five stages of grief. And I started to
look into it and I was like, oh, okay, but I'm
not really angry. I can't really be angry that
she's died and I can't be in denial because I,
you know. I was there. I was part of it. What
are the five stages of grief that people always
hear about? So you've got, I can't remember the
exact order, but there's denial, there's bargaining,
anger, and the final one is acceptance. There's
another one in there. But the five stages of
grief, I think, originally came from Elizabeth
Kubler -Ross. who was in palliative care, I believe,
and the stages were actually the stages that
somebody who was dying would go through, which,
once I learned this, it made much more sense
to me because you would want to try and bargain
your way out of it. Of course you would, and
perhaps you would potentially be trying to deny
it as well and eventually get to acceptance.
So I think the five stages can be quite helpful,
but actually also not because I read them as
if, like, well, if I'm not angry, then... Does
that mean I'm not grieving properly or should
I be bargaining? And I found it all a bit confusing.
These are the absolute things you're going to
go through and it's going to be almost in quite
a linear process. But of course, as we know with
grief, nothing is linear. So you can have all
these emotions in a minute, let alone anything
else. So it was quite interesting to read about,
but it does make more sense for those that are
dying that perhaps would go through those stages.
So what could you expect then? Is it sort of
like opening Pandora's box? Yeah, literally,
literally, because... That was the right thing
to say there. Pandora's box is supposed to be
good. It's not Pandora's box, is it? Well, you
just open up, you're going into a chasm. I mean,
you can have... any emotion and like I say that
every emotion can come within seconds I mean
you know I am three years down the line and I
was in WH Smith the other day and I thought oh
I'll get mum that crossword book no you won't
Kate and and it's it's it's things like that
that you can't you don't expect like I was you
know doing my day going about my day nipping
into WH Smith for something and then I'm in floods
of tears. And I think that is almost the problem
with grief and the bit that we don't really talk
about is the emotions come so unexpectedly. It
might be a sound, a smell, a memory. The emotions
that you have come out of nowhere. And how do
you navigate that? How do you cope with that?
Because it's really quite... I didn't particularly
want to be in AA Smith in tears, so I wasn't
expecting to be. And that's the thing about grief.
But it's also taking the pressure off yourself
and going, do you know what? It's okay. I'm grieving.
I'm going to be grieving forever. Unfortunately,
she's gone forever, and therefore I'm going to
be grieving forever. And it's that acceptance.
It's going, it doesn't matter. Yes, you are.
And I've been through counselling. I've had some
great therapy, which has really helped me. I'm
a big advocate for therapy, as we know. But it
helped. But it's also just taking that pressure
off your shoulders and going, do you know what,
you're grieving, and that's okay. And I think
a lot of people, we were talking about this,
about what can you do at home, and if you are
grieving, one of the things that a lot of people
are doing is being quite insular, is what you
said, isn't it? And I'm like, well, okay, if
you're grieving about something and you're upset
about something, and the most... and you're stuck
at home, I think the best thing you can do is
get really cosy. Yes. And get, like... Yes, definitely.
Get some cosy blankets. Yeah. Make sure you've
got lots of oxygen in the air. Yeah. And some
real plants. Yeah. You know, look after yourself
and, like, surround yourself with things that
you love and that... And tactile. It's that...
It's the soft... This blanket is amazing, isn't
it? Yeah, it is. It's so soft. It's that metaphorical
hug. because you might be grieving on your own
you might not have anybody around you but if
you can have that that sort of that that softness
and that coziness and and you know we do I certainly
sat on the sofa and cried a lot and you get very
dehydrated because you are in tears the whole
time and you don't think that you're necessarily
dehydrated but you need to keep your water intake
up um but also I just you know I wanted something
around me that was soft and warm and and was
that hug that i wasn't getting from you know
from a person but i was trying to get it in other
ways yes i'm like really um because i've got
adhd i've i've learned this in my 40s i'm quite
sensory sensitive so I really like being comfortable
so quite often I'll get dressed about four times
in the morning my husband goes mad because I'm
like I'm not just not comfortable I need to be
comfortable so I can imagine like well I mean
I've not lost a parent but I've grieved a relationship
and you know there's there's this this thing
where for me I i always have like really cozy
sofas i like to have a cozy sofa with lots of
cushions and lots of blankets and like just getting
under a blanket and being really warm and wearing
really really cozy clothes um and just watching
your favorite movie and like just sitting and
or even just sitting in front of the fire you
know just being warm and cozy i think is really
important yeah it is And plants are really important.
Why do we buy flowers that die for somebody who
is grieving? I've never really understood that.
Here, have some flowers and in seven days' time
they're going to be dead. That is not nice. But
it's just something that we all do. Did you think
about that when someone bought you flowers? Yeah,
it sort of came from that and then obviously
doing a lot around grief and I just thought,
this is ridiculous. Because I wanted to give
somebody something and in the end I gave them
a plant because... I wanted them to keep, you
know, to have something long term. And I went
to get flowers and I thought, hang on a minute,
they're going to die. A, they don't want to look
after them because grief is overwhelming. The
last thing you want to do is be worrying about
whether you've changed the water in your flowers
or whatever. And then they're going to die. And
it's like, hang on a minute. But if you do want
to buy someone flowers and they're grieving,
you can buy dried flowers. Dried flowers last
forever. I've got a little video actually that
I've... Not put up yet, but I did some arranging
of dried flowers the other day and videoed it.
But yeah, that's the perfect example of what
you can do. I mean, plants create oxygen, but
if you do want flowers, if you want to just brighten
someone's day... And they, you know, put it in
a vase. Then dried flowers are amazing. They
are. And I met somebody that was, I met her at
a networking meeting and she does artificial
flower arrangements. And as soon as she said
artificial flowers, I was taken back to the 80s.
Like those, you know, fireplace replacement,
artificial flowers, just collect dust. And when
she said about it, she obviously saw my face
and she went, no, everyone does the same. And
then she bought them out. And I was like, that.
they're artificial i couldn't believe it it was
a lily and it was i would not have known it was
artificial this is a bit of eucalyptus you would
you would never know unless you get up close
to it but yeah amazing so that's that's something
that you could to give that that isn't necessarily
then going to die yeah in a week's time i love
that i've never thought about that it's a weird
thing isn't it it's a very bizarre concept so
um if you have lost someone and you're grieving
them there's especially if someone's got older
or if they got sick there'll be a period of time
where they wouldn't look themselves as you knew
them so there'll be a period of time where you'll
remember them in that way because they weren't
well and i think it would be a really good thing
to have pictures of that person around you lots
of them if you want to of the good times that
you've had and the really amazing the most amazing
parts of their life that you remember spending
with them and having those next to your bed or
you know if you want to say good night you know
if you've lost your partner you'd probably want
to do that um If you've lost your mum, you might
want to have it in your living room or in your
kitchen. Wherever you would have normally phoned
your mum, I would phone my mum in the kitchen
and go, Mum, how do I make a cake? What do I
do? That's generally what I'm doing in the kitchen.
So if I lost my mum, I think there would be a
really prominent place in my kitchen for her.
Do you know what I mean? So I think there's...
If you have... If you're not used to putting
pictures on the walls, you can do anything. You
can go to Tesco's and you can print out a canvas.
or your most favourite supermarket if you're
in the US I don't think they have Tesco's but
in the supermarkets in the UK you can actually
order stuff online and you can order a canvas
for not a lot of money or you can print out a
photograph and put it in your favourite frame
or like what would say we're going with my mum
sorry mum I really don't want you to die yet
no no please don't but you know say we go with
my mum my mum really loves crafting for example
so I might make a little crafty page for her
and put it in a frame and put a photograph of
her in the middle of it you know so it would
be like a tribute to that person and yeah it's
a memorial place as well exactly and then flowers
that they love and things like that you know
obviously not ones that are going to die um but
you know if you if you know i love eucalyptus
when i'm dead everyone can remember me from eucalyptus
i've always got eucalyptus in there so you know
it's that kind of um association like those things
that you remember them for have it around you
yeah yeah make the cake that she gave you the
recipe of that that's the thing and that there's
we talk a lot about that in grief about how you
can almost memorialize that person and they haven't
gone because you're using their yorkshire pudding
recipe or you're using their cake recipe and
so they're always with you in some form they
might not be physically with you but they are
with you um but that is one tip you were talking
about photos take photos of everything I wasn't
a big, I didn't really take photos, but they're
all you've got at the end. And now I take photos
of everything because it's all you've got. And
if you haven't got photos, and sometimes they
trigger quite sad memories, but a lot of the
time they can trigger some really lovely memories
that you've completely forgotten about. So, yes,
absolutely take photos. And you can get those
tiles, can't you? You can make... Mixed tiles.
Mixed tiles, yeah. You can do all sorts of things
now to have memories on the wall or on the mantelpiece
or on the table or whatever. Do you know, my
ex -husband did something for his mum, which
I thought was amazing, where he... I don't know
where he got it from, but it was a big canvas
and he got photographs of his mum, for his mum,
and printed out lots and lots and lots of...
all the photographs that he'd ever taken and
he used to take a lot so I think it was like
this massive canvas just with all her face on
it and she loved it so much it was so many memories
and you could just sit there watching it for
hours and go oh my god I remember that and oh
my god I remember that one and you know it's
so lovely doing something like that and I think
just generally in your house like having those
memories is so important I mean I'm terrible
I've got photographs of everything like I take
so many photographs I grew up in a photo processing
lab my parents owned when I was younger so I
used to take loads of photographs before digital
photographs and um but actually print out the
photographs that you've got off your phone so
many people just take stuff and they don't and
they put it on Facebook they don't put it in
their house and I think when you've actually
got a tangible photo in a frame it means more
than it does when it's online yeah you don't
look at it as much do you if you're you know
I've got goodness knows how many photos in my
in my But I don't flick back through them. But
if it's printed off, you will see it and you'll
see it every day. And when you've had quite a
traumatic death, often those memories are with
you all the time. And it's trying to replace
those traumatic memories with the better memories
that you had before that trauma, really. Yeah.
So you were talking about something earlier that
was quite important, I think, when you're grieving.
that room that meant that reminds you of that
person can you explain yeah i was saying something
that we don't really ever talk about is um especially
if you've had somebody die at home there's that
room where they died it was the last place you
saw them and it it's in its it can be a really
emotional room and it's at what point do you
decide to do something with that room do you
change it Do you keep it the same? Do you make
that room completely different? Do you try and
keep it similar? It's a really interesting question.
Of course, there's no right or wrong answer because
everybody's individual and it's completely up
to them. But it's something that we don't ever
really talk about, the design. What do you do
when you've got a room that's the last place
someone was in? Yeah. I mean, Chris, my husband,
his mum died in there. downstairs room um obviously
she couldn't get upstairs when she was she was
really sick and that used to be her sewing room
she used to be a seamstress and you know that
room is never really changed in their house and
i think that happens a lot and but it's it's
whether or not you want to make it a shrine to
that person and it might be that actually rather
than keeping it as it was it might be you paint
that room in all their favorite colors and you
put pictures of them up in that room and you've
got a little cozy sofa that you can sit and just
think about them or write about them or you know
write down memories of who they were and you
know that now that they're fresh because you
know memories fade don't they and um But yeah,
you can keep it. Especially, we were talking
about this earlier, some people lose their kids.
A children's room, I don't know, oh my God, I
can't even imagine what that's like. But actually
having that child's room, I couldn't, I don't
know if I could change it. You just can't. You'd
just shut the door, wouldn't you? And just be
like, okay, we're just going to deal with that
next time. And that's the thing, and when is
next time? You just kick that down the road.
But then I suppose, Actually, you might get to
a stage where you're feeling a little bit more
okay about it and then you can tidy it. And you
can go in there to remember. So you'd use it
as its own memorial. But it's a topic that we
don't really talk about. And of course, sometimes
people have very complex relationships with people
and sometimes that relationship isn't always
that great. So you've got that aspect as well
when you haven't got a great relationship with
someone. What do you do with that? And they die
at home and then you're dealing with all of that
grief for that complex relationship. And then
do you change that room? Do you change it to
something completely different? There's just
so much to consider around grief and that's why
these types of conversations are so important.
There's absolutely no right or wrong. Everybody
is so, so different. No one's talking about it.
Let's talk about it because it might happen to
you, to me. We don't know what's going to happen
next. And it's a consideration, something we
hopefully don't ever have to talk about, what
you do with that room, but we might. I struggle
to go into the room at my parents' house where
my mum died. I really struggle. Is it their bedroom?
It was a, no, it was a downstairs, it was turned
into a bedroom. So we had a hospice at home.
So we had the carers come in and we did, they
did what they call a virtual hospice, especially
it was over COVID time as well. So they didn't
want us in and out of the hospice. And it was
great for us because it meant that we were together
at home with my mum. But I, yeah, I struggled
to go in there. in that room now and it's it's
not really changed it's you know everything is
still the same the hairbrush is still on the
side my dad hasn't hasn't really touched it at
all and that's his way of coping I think it would
be something that you don't have to deal with
that you just leave because actually that's going
to upset you yeah And I know people struggle
with moving as well because that's another change.
So this might be further down the line, but some
people might not even be able to afford to stay
in the same house because they've lost a financial
partner. And so then they have to move. And so
they're leaving all those memories behind. And
that's another loss. You're grieving the loss
and then you're grieving again because you're
having to move home, possibly not through choice
or maybe through choice, but you're still leaving.
You feel like you're leaving the memory behind.
So it's like another grieving process that you
have to go through. Yeah, I mean, I'm a little
bit... Because I've got ADHD and I've just like
totally outed myself here because I've never
said this on the podcast before. Oh, I feel so
privileged. Thank you. I feel like I can talk
to you. yeah because I have I think one of the
things that I've got which is really really helpful
about my the way my mind works is that I'm like
out of sight out of mind so I think that my initial
way of dealing with grief in any situation is
to just move forward and leave it all behind
it's called denial it's one of the stages I'm
in complete denial for a long time. And then
it just catches me up a few years later. Yeah,
that's the thing with grief. You cannot outrun
it. It'll come and get you at some point and
it will bite you on the backside. Yeah, I agree
with that, definitely. Let's try though. But
that's kind of like my instant reaction is to
like, I would be like painting the walls in the
room and like going, right, move on, come on,
let's go move on. Yeah, and then that would be
my way of coping. And then five years later,
I'd be like, I want the room back the way it
was. Yeah, and that's the thing, you've made
those changes. Yes, I suppose you have to be
mindful about it. So if you have got a room that
you're not sure about, just leave it until you
are very sure. Don't make any rash decisions.
Don't make any, like me, because I'm full of
ADHD, so I would do that. Well, they say don't
make big decisions, don't they, when you're grieving?
But I decided to upend my whole life, change
my career and everything, because for me, I like
change. So although it was a horrendous situation,
it made me change everything. And I say, you
know, some people... Grief can be a catalyst
for growth. It can make you make some huge changes
in your own life. I think it makes you realise
that life is short. I used to know a lady called
Leela and she worked in the interior design industry
in the UK. She was always the life and soul of
the party. And she was only 28. and she she died
in um I don't know what happened I never really
got to the bottom of it I'm not very close to
the family I went to the funeral and there was
a lot of people there um she was so young and
and um I didn't realize how young she was actually
but she the one thing I took from that is like
she was always there like whenever I went networking
in the industry like she was just always there
she was like like my wing woman she was amazing
but then all of a sudden she wasn't there and
she was so young like she was younger than me
so I was going oh shit you know life is short
and you've got to make the most of it and I think
that's one of the reasons why a lot of people
do change yeah because they realize you're not
on this planet for very long are you and you've
got to make the most of it and you know make
and also that's one of the things in with um
with like all the things in your home as well
like you're not here for very long so like why
not make your home really lovely why not make
your surroundings something that you really really
love and and one of the things that i say when
i'm doing a design for somebody is if you don't
love it i don't want you to have it like you
need to love it yeah you're going to live with
this for a long time and i do not want you to
be swearing about me in a few years so you need
to love it you need to like really really connect
with the things that you've got around you and
i think that's for me i i when whenever i have
like a drastic thing happen and a change i always
like to decorate like quick change it and you
know shall we talk about that from a therapy
perspective what is it about the change what
does that mean for you oh i don't know i just
love change i'm like you i love change i love
things to move I don't like standing still. So
I like things to move and to grow. Like I'm constantly
going, oh, I must get new frames for that and
I must do this and all that. And, you know, and
for me, if I've got a picture in a frame that's
faded, like it's a massive issue. Like I'm like,
oh my God, it's got to change. You know, we haven't
got enough hours for this. I love it. Since Kat's
become a counsellor, she's properly counselling
my arse. She's like, how do you feel about why
you think that? And I'm like, oh my God, I love
it. Because you can't counsel your friends. But
I just make you question things. That's all it
is. Why is it that you like change so much? But
no, you love change. I do love change. I do.
I love it. I remember an old boss said to me
once that she said to me that you don't like
change. And I was like, you have absolutely got
me wrong. And I wonder... I should take that
to therapy because I feel like I'm battling against
that all the time. Like, I love change. Change
is, for me, change is growth. But I'm sure there's...
It might be similar to me because you're quite
similar to me. I love it when things change when
I'm in control. But you've got... If someone
else is like, this is going to change and you
don't want to do it, it's like, what? I was going
to get to that about change in general and, you
know, who's making those changes? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Me. They're fine. Those ones are fine.
That's why I run my own business. Obviously,
my clients tell me what to do. And I embrace
that. Well, I suppose you educate as well, though,
don't you, with that? Well, I just, I like to
think, I mean, it depends on the client. But,
I mean, I've got a client at the moment who I'm
helping her make informed decisions. So she's
got, like, she's, the client I've got is really
creative. She's amazing. She hasn't got time
to do the interior design. but she wants to be
really really involved so i'm basically saying
to her um you know she's coming to me going i'm
thinking i'm wanting green tiles in the toilet
what do you think and i'm going right yes this
if you do this like this the psychology behind
it is this so if you so for example um i don't
know about green tiles in the toilets but um
furniture so if you have really hard seats it
won't feel very comfortable but it might be something
that you want to create a behavior around so
for example if you don't like guests in your
house hard seats all the way your chair is really
comfortable the others are not they won't stay
very long so like you know in a restaurant if
you if you want in and out i suppose quick turnaround
express do this in in the uk um hard seats and
they they turn the table don't get comfy yeah
they turn the table and things like the noodle
bar in colchester one of the ones that we've
done recently it's on it's on my blog if you
want to see it um and on on all the socials the
um youtube channel as well sorry got you can't
mention youtube um their their furniture is hard
and they were talking about they extended the
restaurant because they bought the property next
to the the restaurant adjacent to it and they
knocked through and they were talking about having
more comfortable seating and i said to them oh
you need to be careful about this because if
you have more comfortable seating people will
stay for longer and the first thing they said
to me was we turn those tables five times every
weekend on it in one day so it's like well if
you want to carry on doing that just know that
the comfortable seats that you've got might not
turn as quick as the other ones you know and
there's a psychology behind that and you know
if you're grieving and you want to be left alone
just get rid of the furniture and get some really
uncomfortable chairs and make your sofa like
a little epiphany of comfort and luxury and just
look after yourself in that make sure you go
A little table, like a little nest of tables
next to you so you can put your bottle of water
or your peppermint tea or whatever it is that
you need to have to keep you hydrated because
that's bad. Yes, it is. It's something you never
think about, but you lose so much through tears.
And actually, again, something I learned through
grief is that the tears are good for you. There's
a chemical in the tears that can... I want to
say... No, I can't remember. There's a particular
chemical that... And if you've been crying for
a while, it can be quite soothing. The tears
are actually, the chemical in the tears is quite
soothing. I need to read up on it more because
I'm not explaining myself very well. But yeah,
it's endorphins. It's almost like an endorphin
that comes from the tears. And we often try and
stop people crying, normally because we can't
handle our own emotions when we see someone else
in sadness or whatever the tears are for. Don't
stop someone. Let them. If someone is sad, let
them cry. People say it, don't they? Don't cry.
Yeah, I know. You're told to squish it down all
the time. Or we touch. And that's, again, a sign
of almost stopping. is it yeah yeah because you're
almost saying like don't do that stop doing that
but actually what about hugging i'm a hugger
you're a hugger not everybody wants to hug either
i love hugging some people can really struggle
with hugs because of their previous experiences
so ask the best thing to do is ask can i hug
you what would you like a hug not can i because
it's not for you It's for them. Do you know what?
One of the things that me and my husband say
to each other is, what do you need? Yes, exactly
that. And I love that because you go... I just
need you to tell me it's all going to be all
right. Or I just need a hug. Or I just need to
be left alone. Or whatever it is, if someone
asks you what do you need, you've then got the
opportunity to think about what you need because
actually you might not know. Well, and with grief,
sometimes you're so overwhelmed you absolutely
don't know. Like, leave me a lasagna on my doormat.
Don't expect me to come to the door. I don't
know what I need. I'm so overwhelmed with everything
that's gone on. I'm processing. I don't have
the capacity. tell you what i need because i
don't know what i need but i know i'm going to
need to eat at some point so please just leave
something for me come around and you know hoover
the lounge do something practical um because
i'm not necessarily going to be able to tell
you what what i need i think that's a thing isn't
it it's a functional thing if you if you're grieving
and you're struggling with grief Like actually
being able to function is going to be a problem.
So actually someone coming into your house and
helping you in some way, like making you dinner
or like hoovering your lounge. Yeah. That's what
you can do. And give someone a blanket, not a
plant that's going to die. Exactly that. A big,
squishy, warm, comfy blanket. I mean, that in
itself, that sounds lovely, doesn't it? And that,
yeah, not a plant, not some flowers. You can
wrap them in and give them a hug even if they
don't want a hug. Exactly that. exactly thank
you so much for coming on onto the i'm going
on to the podcast but actually it's your podcast
too it's our podcast so yeah thank you for listening
to the interior design podcast meets grieve and
achieve podcast and we hope that you've got something
out of this and that you've enjoyed it and that
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