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Welcome to the Interior Design Podcast. I'm Hailey Roy, a commercial interior designer

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with a passion for creating beautiful functional spaces. Over the years, I've worked on a variety

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of projects and I've accumulated a wealth of knowledge which I'm excited to share with you.

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I started this podcast because I believe in the power of interior design,

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so much of what we need to know as designers you won't learn in the classroom.

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Whether you're an aspiring designer, tackling your home project, or a seasoned pro,

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this podcast is for you. Season two is here and I couldn't be more thrilled to kick things off

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with some fresh energy and exciting changes. This season I'm joined by not one but two

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incredible co-hosts, Hannah Denny and Scarlett Mallett. Together we're diving deeper into the

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world of design to bring you more perspectives, lively debates and all the tips and tricks you

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need to thrive. We're here to offer practical advice, discuss the latest trends and give you

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unfiltered real world insights, expect honest conversations, a bit of humour and maybe even

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the occasional strong opinion and language. Remember if it's not fun, we're not doing it

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and if you're a sound editor looking for a fun collaboration, let us know. We'd love to have

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you on board. Thanks for tuning in to season two of the Interior Design podcast.

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Welcome to the Interior Design podcast. Today we are hosted by Platform Events

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at the O2 Intercontinental Hotel and it is the Interior Design and Architecture Summit at the

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moment and we've been doing some speed dating with suppliers, 20 minute meetings with Platform

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Events which we do every year and thoroughly enjoy. Yeah, I mean sometimes you get carried away

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because you want to speak to so many people but that is what the evening is for. Yeah, we had a

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lovely night last night and we had a nice dinner and you really get a lot of opportunities

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being at this event which I love. We do it most years so we highly. Yeah and behind us is the Thames

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and we are joined by the amazing Richard Evans from Karni Sweeney. Did I say that right? You did

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too. Yeah, hello. Thank you very much for helping me. I'd like to just introduce Richard by saying

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that I met him on a job that we were doing together and one of the reasons that I invited him on the

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podcast was because he was extremely eloquent in the way that he spoke to the client and explained

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things in such a way that I thought that everybody who listens to the podcast would benefit it. So

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we're talking about UK planning and yeah, let you introduce yourself. Thank you very much. So I'm

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a qualified town planner. I'm a member of the Royal Town Planning Institute, the RTPI but anybody can

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call themselves a planner through the decision making process. So I have been practicing for 25

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years and it's an important distinction as you often hear people being referred to as the planners

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made a decision to approve or refuse this. It's not just the actual qualified planners,

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town planners who are called planners and planning committee members who have no perhaps

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qualification whatsoever other than a bit of training to be on the committee. They are planners

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and they make that decision. So I have 12 years experience at local authority. Following that,

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I worked for a property developer for four years. So I gained a commercial awareness

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and time imperative and appreciation for the implications for any bureaucratic delays on

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program and delivery. But I have been working as a planning consultant for the last nine years,

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advising private clients and navigate their way through the planning process and this can

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include from site acquisition, formulation of design concepts, formulation of the planning

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applications. This involves including liaison with council planners and other stakeholders

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in advance of the submission. We do a lot of post-approval work as designs can change. Once

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the builders get on site and the client gets on site and really gets to grips with what can

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actually be achieved, it's not always what they have planning permission for. So a lot of design

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changes occur which will need to go back to planning. We guide the clients on how to best

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minimize any delays through that process. So I deal with a broad range of planning applications and

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in two weeks I have a plan application going forward to committee for 1900 homes and a development

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includes buildings up to 33 stories in height. But by contrast earlier this week I submitted

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the plan application that included primarily for a new door in the shopfront in a conservation area.

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So it's a broad range of planning application work that we do.

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And you all seem to be a DJ, didn't you? No. No, no. The reason that he's just to explain,

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if you can see it on YouTube, he's wearing like his headphones without being on one of his ears.

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I'm just used to listening to the music through one ear and in the headphones and

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what's going on the speakers here that I'm not. I've never been a professional DJ anyway, Shapo.

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Bedroom DJ. Oh, bedroom DJ. Sorry, I've outed you then. I'm available for bookings.

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So what made you go into planning in the first place? Oh, that's a very good question.

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I always appreciated and loved the makeup of towns, how they evolved in certain areas, why

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certain areas were what they did, what they did. Maybe they residential and the

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intensification in residential areas and how they interacted with the commercial areas and

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routes through the people taken to the human interaction. Planning covers social, economic

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and the physical as the three tenants of planning. We all interlinked. So you can,

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it's an assessment of what influences what, but I was always fascinated by towns. So we're discussing

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here, we're a country boy, I was brought up in a house in the field on the side of a valley

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in Wales and my father was a farmer. I thought it was a curse. I just wanted to live in towns and

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cities and see how they evolved because there's so much action going on there. And I'm interested

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in politics as well and they're very much interlinked and planning in the environment

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with the obvious choice and I've never regretted it. Although if I was a professional DJ, I would

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have obviously been happy with that route. So being in the countryside and on the farm with

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your family, you were always interested in sightseeing within the bigger towns. Very much so.

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When we had an annual trip to come and see my auntie and uncle and my cousins in London,

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and I always look forward to that and really enjoyed that. And so it's all in. But town planning

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affects the countryside just as much as the towns as well. And I've been a planning officer in rural

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authorities in green belts countryside, so with agricultural buildings, etc. as well. So it applies

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everywhere. It's not prejudice where it intervenes and causes bureaucracy.

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So you say that it applies everywhere, but would you say you get more work with the cities rather

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than the countryside? We deal with broad range of queries. I've just attended the Peel hearing this

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week for an alleged development within the green belt, within the countryside outside the town.

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It's on the boundary and close proximity to the town. But we do a broad range of work. A lot of

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inquiries will come from people who are looking to develop in the countryside. And that's becoming

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more and more prevalent and will do going forward with changes to national planning policy on potential

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new towns and developments in the green belt in the countryside as well on the periphery of towns

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where the opportunities are to deliver more housing and more commercial developments. So we deal a lot

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of queries in the countryside as well, not just urban areas, but based in London. We do a lot of work

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within London as well. Yeah. So in the context of interior design, how would you define planning?

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The geeky bit. I think it's important to lay out. So development is what we refer to. And development

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is defined in the Town and Country Planning Act. So development requires Planning Commission. I'll

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read out to you at the section 55 if you're making notes of the Act. And that states that

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development is defined as the carrying out of building, engineering, mining or other operations

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in, on or under land, or the making of any material change in the use of any buildings

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or other land. So that sets out in statute the position. The Act also goes on to identify that

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certain operations or uses of land are not classes development, which is very important. And these

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comprise primarily of the carrying out for the maintenance improvements or alteration,

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otherwise of any building of works, which in fact don't need the interior of a building,

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or do not material effect the external appearance of the building. There are other exemptions that

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apply as well, such as incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling house, that can range from working

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from home in your office, and you comply with certain criteria, or even the keeping of animals

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in your back garden, such as keeping horses or hens, for example. So there's lots of definitions

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there. So if I want some chickens, I'm going to need to apply for Planning Commission for them.

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No, providing that they are in connection with the enjoyment of your dwelling. If you're operating a

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commercial business there, for those who are in connection with those hens, that's when the

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tipping point would be that assessments are change of use, would occur. So if you had eggs, and you

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had too many eggs, and you sold them for a pound out the front, at that point they become a business.

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It would be a matter of fact and degree, which is a key phrase in town planning, an assessment would

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be made. Okay, what are the characteristics of that? If you are setting a stall up, and if you're

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employing someone, and if you're getting deliveries and a van, turning up picking things, picking up

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eggs and dropping off egg boxes on a regular basis, and you've got lots of people travelling

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within their cars and coming and causing a noise and disturbance and parking everywhere,

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there would be characteristic of a business taking place, because it has an impact on your

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neighbours and on the parking lot locale and highway safety and all these issues that wouldn't

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need to be considered under a planning application. If you're doing it once in one hour, and you're

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you know, you're not employing anybody, that would be ancillary. I would suggest.

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What does ancillary mean? Oh, god.

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Thank you very much for putting me on the spot there. That's a very good question.

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That's something which isn't defined as being a significant difference to what you would normally

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anticipate or expect to take place at the primary use. In itself, it can be quite a large use. For

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example, the hotel is a good case in point, it might have a restaurant, the members of the public

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can visit, but proportionately, it's not a significant component of the use. It doesn't

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change the balance significantly. Majority of people will be coming from the hotel for purposes of

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the use in connection with staying at the hotel and the deliveries associated with that and

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making it members of the public coming and visiting. We're not guests, but it would be seen proportionately

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part of the wider use, I would suggest. So it would be for me to own a hotel or get one with an

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external restaurant. So that would be an ancillary use in connection with the main use.

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It's quite interesting to think that so many people do that.

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Working from home is the classic and best example. Particularly now, obviously,

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in the face of the pandemic, people work from home, they'll set up a desk there,

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that's ancillary, so I think it's the most classic example of an ancillary activity that

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if you were employing people who were coming and having to park their cars there, for example,

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if you were getting deliveries, you were having collections, and if you were having

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members of the public or customers visiting, the balance shifts, balance changes there.

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You would become mixed use, because you're still living there. Oh, I used to do that.

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I didn't know that you needed planning for that. Oh, no. Sorry. Just hold everyone. Sorry, universe.

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I don't think I'm going to do anymore. If you've used, if you've seen the news.

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Mixed forever in my house. Yeah, you've seen the news. So that's a really,

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a better example than the egg salad. So why is planning permission and understanding the

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regulations so crucial for interior designers? It's, it really is critical. You have implications,

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what it may mean on programme and delivery. The worst case scenario is carrying out work,

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which requires planning permission. You'll have an enforcement officer potentially knocking on the

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door, following receipt of a complaint of something so obvious that they've observed

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for themselves. And that's going to, you know, any such intervention is going to be problematic

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for the operator or the owner of the site anyway. But it's best legally to get all your papers in

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order, because you never know when that's going to cause a problem, be it in financing, an operator,

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financing, an operation as a future data or if you were looking to sell or dispose of anything.

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If it's found that to be appropriate planning permission isn't in place, that is going to

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have ramifications on the value, obviously on the undilays. But whilst works are taking place,

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obviously there's an investment there, which hasn't been authorised potentially. So it is

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critical that the appropriate consents are put in place and everyone's comfortable with that.

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So when I go into a property, I would check the planning on that property.

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So we would always recommend you take a look at councils website. They are a great resource.

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Each planning authority will have their planning section on their website, where you can take a

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look at the planning history of the site. It's one of the first things that we do, if anyone

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makes an inquiry about a particular site and suggests they want to do something there,

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you take a look at the planning history and you'd also take a look at the planning policy.

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You've got to assess whether planning commission is required, whether it is development.

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When you are doing that, you should take a look at the planning history of the property because

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the planning commission may be in place originally, but on historical planning permissions, there may

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well be conditions as well. So you need to burrow a little bit deeper into the decision notice,

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take a look at the conditions. There might be a restricted condition on there.

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That's ordinarily what you may wish to carry out would be perfectly acceptable,

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but you may look to do. There may be a restricted condition on there that prevents that. So I'd

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always take a look at the planning decision and get in full receipt of the facts of what's going

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on there. But you need to establish whether planning commission is required, first of all.

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It's not just planning permission on the development, if a property is listed, it's

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thoroughly listed and you can check the Historic England website. They keep the list of all the

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buildings which are listed and it's grading. The reason why it's listed as well can be for its

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architectural quality or for its historic value. It's such an important area to take a look at

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and see confirmation of. So the local planning authorities website is the key resource you

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would take. Where would you use the planning portal? Because there's a portal that covers the whole

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country, isn't there? That's right. You would need to use the planning portal to submit planning

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applications and list the consent applications. So the information isn't actually there, is it?

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No. Because I always go on the planning portal and then I end up, and then it takes me to the

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local authority. That's right. So you just punch in the local authority planning policy or planning

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application search and you will find that information there. So local planning authorities

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should have an adopted plan. We should talk about the development plan and that's made up of the

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local authorities plan itself. But also there's the national planning policy framework as well.

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And in London, we have the strategic London plan, which has further policies as well. We would always

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take a look at the local authorities website for their local plan, which may, depending on when it

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was adopted, may comprise a few different documents and there will be a policies map on there as well.

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So you can physically take a look at your site and you can take a look at if there are any

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designations on it. So it may be in the conservation area, it might be in town centres, you have the

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town centres are defined as well, which has a link to applicable policies. There may be primary

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shopping frontages, secondary shopping frontages, and those can affect the types of use that the

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local authority would accept there as well. And the importance of that street within the town centre

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and the commercial centre has. So there's all myriads of policies will be designated on there,

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such as green belts as well. So how would you say planning affects interior design projects?

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For example, if you go again, commercial versus residential, you need to satisfy all the planning

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policies. They have the same means to an end. Obviously commercial clients and instructions

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will have a tight timeframe and they'll have funding behind them. And they'll have an opening date

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by which the purpose of that existence kicks in and they get the return on the money, so

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on the investment. So planning can delay program. And that's a key aspect there. I think it's

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imperative that at an early stage, the clients, be they commercial or residential, they're given full

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receipt of the position when planning comes into play. So they're aware what they're letting

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themselves in for, what the requirements are going to be, so they can assess risks themselves.

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We take our instructions from clients and they're decision makers. They'll be informed by our advice

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and our guidance, but to give, to properly research what are the implications for anything. It's

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imperative because they're interwoven and they're not just controlled by planning, which is secondary

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legislation, but you have other influences as well. You have secured by design, you have the fire

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safety regulations, you have wheelchair accessibility requirements. It's now part M of the building

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regulations. It used to be DDA, the Disabled Disciplinary Act. So there's all those things

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at play which will come into effect. I'm sure you guys are fully aware of the ramifications for those.

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You're planning as well. You'll bring it to the fore when applications are being scrutinized at

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planning application stage. So there may be the need for you to include specialist consultants

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as well who can advise on these things. Daylight sunlight, for example, can affect new schemes,

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new house bills, etc. For example, where the target standards that are required to meet

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daylight sunlight standards. So they'll affect layout interior of rooms, proximity to the windows,

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and you may come up with solutions to insert a high-level window or even a skyline to address that.

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But there are daylight sunlight specialists and that can advise as well. Daylight sunlight

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is that's a measure of what the reasonably expected levels of internal daylight within a room.

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And is there standards that you have to meet? So BRI sets out guidelines and new guidelines

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were published two years ago. They are guidelines, so they're not absolutely

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prescriptive that you must meet those. The planning process is a process of judging the

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planning balance. So going back to the local plan, come for a moment, the development plan,

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the aspiration, the requirements is that you meet the planning, the local plan as a whole.

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But there are priorities within the local plan. So not all policies will always be met all of the

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time. We don't live in that world. Planning officers when you speak with them will always

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aspire and seek to push you and drive you to each of those. That's their job. But the planning

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balance at the end of the day needs to be derived. What are the important things?

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What are the restrictions on the site? What are the benefits? What's the justification

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for what you're proposing? Something may be in conflict with policy, but it may be over an

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overriding benefit and other primary policies are being met. So the planning process always pursue

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those as the primary objective. So they come in when we're dealing with daylight sunlight.

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So the policy will be in there to be clear that daylight sunlight must be met. BRI

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guidelines will be the go-to, benchmark, but then different levels of daylight and levels of

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sunlight as well, which are two different things are targeted and they are targets prescribed for

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different rooms within residential properties. And also the impact on overshadowing is on the

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neighbouring properties by a new construction as well. So typically those will be assessed on

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large developments, not all units as we call them or homes or rooms will always meet all the targets

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all the time. That's impossible, but a large proportion of them should do and there should be

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justification why. Then the balance is struck then. Why do we have that in place daylight

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sunlight? Is it something to do with mental health? Well, for planning terms it will be immunity.

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That is the catch-all phrase that covers a lot of different aspects. Immunity is your enjoyment,

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essentially the quality of that place. So immunity can apply to visual immunity.

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So a new build or installing a new shopfront will have implications on the townscape and the street

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scene, the character of an area and that will be assessed. And if a planning officer in their

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planning speak in the assessments, I'm not happy with that. They will advise that it's

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injurious to the enjoyment of the visual immunity of a location. So

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immunity can also apply to individuals' enjoyment of their dwelling house. It's a

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carefully crafted phrase that can catch a few different aspects, considerations as well.

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And it's not a science, it is an art, it's on judgments, planning judgments and balance.

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So it's interesting you saying that we worked on a project at the start of the year and it was

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planning for a window. It's really important to know that planning can take so long. One thing

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that I can say that I've definitely learned, get that planning done as soon as possible.

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And what we really had to take into consideration, like you were saying, was about the natural light.

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Well, it's a natural light way to make sure about the window, how much you could open it because

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facing it, there were people's apartments. You really have to take so much into account

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with planning. Like it already sounds complicated. A lot goes into it and there's so many things you

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need to take into account. But one thing that I have definitely learned is get started on doing

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your planning as soon as possible. That is one thing that I really have learned within this

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industry and I highly probably agree with him. So can you? Absolutely. Absolutely. And you touched

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on a classic example that I may achieve, improve daylight sunlight and sunlight, but you're going

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to look into someone's, which would mean that it would be unacceptable. But there's then mitigation

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that you can have as you said. There's things that you can do. Limit the opening of that window,

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obscure glazing. Yeah, it needs to be a certain level. But then the aesthetic with design of that

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window. Now it appears in the street scene and the context of the building. Yeah. Again,

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our importance. Yeah, you've got to make sure that the planning doesn't implicate the design,

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but also the design doesn't implicate the planning getting approved. And so there's so much to

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consider. Absolutely. Absolutely. The sooner you have an understanding of what the implications are,

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what the brief is, what the aspiration is, and how the appropriate people in the room

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to advise and guide you on that design evolution, that design inception stage. And it's important

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that the clients aware of that as well, the journey that they may have to go on. Clients naturally

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don't want to hear about any problems. They want to accelerate the processing,

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get the operational activity underway, but to accelerate too quickly, then you're going to

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trip yourself up and it will become worse further down the line. That's the issue. And

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the frustration kick in then because of the design implications, program, delivery and cost, the budget

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as well. And once people, clients have a fixed view on cost, they don't want to hear about any

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more problems or additional costs, any burdens that just leads to further stress and the

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relationship. So it's really to forward plan as much as possible, get cracking with what will be

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required. So if you need to submit a planning application, you need to go on the council's

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website, take a look at the policies and appreciate what the policies may be. But also take a look

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at the validation checklist and that list, what types of reports and assessments are required

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for a planning application. Those can be prepared and you get those experts involved in the process

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at the early stage to give you their brief and their requirements. So you're presenting a list

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of deliverables as early as possible, what needs to be covered, or what they need to cover as well,

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what they need to include. And there can be so many that are interwoven and interdependent as well.

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And liaison between those consultants. So with a planning application, you want to get that as

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future proof as possible. Yeah, I have a question. Some interior designers are

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applying for planning and I have had some pub group clients expect that as part of our

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read and I've stopped doing it now. I've stopped applying for planning permission basically because

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I'd much rather ring Richard and say help. The reason for it is that I took on an advertising

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consent planning application in Westminster. Oh yeah. Right outside of Leicester Square.

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And actually the client has stopped paying me to do it. And I don't think they've actually got

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planning. I don't think they've done it. And I ended up calling a friend of mine before I met you,

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Richard, a guy called Robert Pomeroy, who's alone. And he gave me loads of advice and told me what

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to do because I was just like Westminster Councilor just chucking out everything I was giving them.

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And then I went back to the client and said, you need to pay me to do more drawings because the

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council need all these other drawings and they didn't want to pay anymore. So it kind of it just

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died of death really. But that's going to have an implication on you as well, isn't it? In a sense,

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I feel like if by them not paying you, it's made an implication because you're trying to help them

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with the planning and they're stopping that. So it's well, it's the client's choice, isn't it?

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Would you be responsible for informing the council? The council will leave the onus on

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the landowner. So it's not, it's not, if he doesn't want, if they don't want to pay me to do it,

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would it not implicate the designer because they've been appointed for it? No, no. The local

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authority, they may seek to get in contact with you if they can't get in contact with the landowner

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or the management company in the first place, the clients. But if they see something potentially

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unauthorized and Westminster's one of the largest authorities because of the amount of commercial

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applications they get for the signage and the like, it's a very difficult task to keep up with

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everything. But they have one of the largest enforcement teams as well, historically. But

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yes, they would take that up with the operator. So the client, they can't just turn around and go,

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well, we've put our designer in charge when realistically behind the scenes, it's nice.

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Well, I've got a paper chain as well to say this is what it's to get planning permission,

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I need more drawings. As you have it provided. And I need you to pay me to do the drawings. So

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therefore you need to pay me to do this. Or, you know, I don't know what they've done,

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they might have gone to a planning consultant. But yeah, so that sort of just went away in the

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end. But I spent so much time on that. But what happened was there was the existing fascia

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when we took over had not got planning permission either. So what was in the planning

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was the previous person. But they wanted drawings of, they kind of wanted the history. So they

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wanted me to draw up what was existing. So photographs and things like that weren't enough,

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they wanted me to draw all of that up. And then they wanted me the further changes. So it was

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like almost like a three face. And that was the problem, because it hadn't got planning previously.

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And that, and I think that's why the client just went, well, the guy before me didn't get any

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planning, and he didn't get told off. So it's like, I'll ask for forgiveness, not permission,

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you know, and that's what they ended up doing. You can see why a lot of commercial operators

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will say, well, if we hadn't told the planners in the first place, we'd have just gone ahead

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and done it and no one would say anything. Anyway, lots of that goes on. That's planning a risk for

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years. And that's a commercial decision by clients. I've double-priced the snow. We're talking about

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that as explained to the clients why we're submitting these drawings and what needs to be done.

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Because the original historical use would be the lawful, sorry, the historic shopfront would be

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the lawful shopfront. But in context to what is you're proposing, you will need to provide

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a drawing of what's there at the moment, whether or not it's lawful or not is, you know, is the

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question. It's what you're proposing will be judged on its merits against what the lawful

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shopfront is and whether it's an improvement on that. A lot of the time, something in its own right

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may not satisfy the local design officer. And in addition to local planning policy,

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it's always on Council's websites for supplementary planning guidance, which are not adopted policy,

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but they'll give you an indication of precisely what the accounts are looking for. And they often

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have them on historic shopfronts, for example, or design guidelines. This is a very important field

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for you to research. But they will assess what you're proposing against what the fallback position

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is of what has been there and what is lawful. And you may achieve an improvement on that. So

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they will take that, they'll plan and negotiate changes to it. And that's where that relationship

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and that conversation with the planners comes into it. But if you can demonstrate an improvement,

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you're in a strong position. If you can't achieve planning policy, they've idealized you of what

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the shopfront, for example, or the facia sign should look like. So Richard, for people that

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aren't aware, what are the implications for if you do not get planning permission and you just

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carry on with what you wanted to submit? So each planning department will have an enforcement team

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and they will do the important investigations. And they're a busy team. There's a lot of people

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who do things innocurously, a lot of the time, as naivety, who are carrying out work which they

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haven't got planning permission for. So that often relies upon members of the public or councillors

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to issue a complaint and an officer will come out on site and investigate that and assess.

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Do you need planning permission for what you're doing? And should you submit a planning application?

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Sometimes they deduce it's not actually expedient to pursue enforcement action. But they do have it

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within their gift to and their powers to issue enforcement notices ultimately, which is essentially

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binding notice requiring you to get down to doing potentially return the site back to its former

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use or its physical appearance. They can't be too prescriptive in returning some elements sometimes,

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but that's a legal debate. But essentially, yes, they can insist that you stop what you're doing

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and restore a building, particularly if something is listed, which has a higher degree of importance

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and most definitely. But enforcement and powers do exist. It's unlawful. It's not illegal. So the

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police won't come down and take you away and you will be prosecuted by the police or the Crown

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Prosecution Service. But the council does have the powers to pursue enforcement action. They can

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issue a stop notice. That means you must forthwith stop what you're doing and wait until

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an important issue and notices issues and then you go through that process. They cannot also issue

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a fact finding questionnaires, they're known as planning, contravention notices. They're often

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used to establish who is the landowner and who is the developer. Those two people are the people

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who usually are pinned on, not the consultants who are involved in this process. So you are not

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doing anything significant unless it's a listed building and then everybody is on the gang plank

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them. But if you do receive enforcement's investigation, it is a serious affair and it's

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something you wish to be avoiding as much as possible. That does occur. You'd always seek to

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be as collaborative with the council as possible. Fain ignorance if need be, but always say, well,

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we want to do the right thing here. The only thing is on the clients at the end of the day.

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They're issuing the instructions. And if something people don't feel comfortable with,

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obviously you make a commercial decision on your involvement in that project, don't you?

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I have a question. You don't just work with one council, do you?

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No, not at all. Anywhere.

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You work with lots of different councils. Is it useful to know people in the planning

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office because you obviously work in the planning office and then come to the dark side?

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Relationship building is key. Lots of the queries that we will have and inquiries from

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prospective clients will be, do we have experience in a particular authority? It's not just to know

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how they react or what they want or what are the must-haves there or the deal breakers or the

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things that they can negotiate on, it's how they operate. Can you pick the phone up to someone?

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Have you got that direct line with someone to have those conversations? And it goes back to

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relationship building at the end of the day. If you've got experience with people, that really

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benefits the level of those conversations you can have. I'm a great believer in meeting people

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face to face wherever possible. Meetings via teams have been brilliant and do speed up

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process and enable people to have that conversation on some elements. But nothing can beat meeting,

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you build up that relationship with them. People may appear a bit standoffish initially,

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but if you were involved in a series of workshops, design workshops or

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pre-application inquiries with an officer, you have that opportunity to have those conversations

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at the side of the meeting, I think, and just develop a rapport so you can gain a sense of

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the importance of some elements of what they're discussing. So obviously, where we have history

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of doing replan applications in certain areas in London or in different councils, and you have that

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background knowledge of how they operate and what their reaction will be. So in the conversation,

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when hopefully you have a bit more of a direct track to them, you can sound amount about certain

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aspects because a lot of innuendo is given in advice. It can be subtle, there's nuances,

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I used to do that when I was a planning officer. I think you were saying the word innuendo in a

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different way to all what I understand. I was going to say, I think about that differently.

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And we were talking about earlier, weren't we, Richard? I feel like it makes the work and job

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easier to complete. The idea of the world is when you're working with people you get on with,

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you're on the same page, you've all got the same approach and understanding and appreciation,

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respect for each other's roles in that process, in building that team, a bit of a cliche, but

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it's all about the delivery, isn't it? A successful outcome at the end of the day,

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not to be that ambulance chaser. So you've got the respect of the clients and you're giving them

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advice, you're giving them heads up, you're identifying those risks as early on as possible,

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letting them know what they're letting themselves in for. A, B and C, these things might cost money,

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just letting you know how far are you willing to go down that route, what are the commercial

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imperatives that you have, are you listening to everything else that the specialists and consultants

393
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,280
are saying? You want people who've got your back, don't you? And you want to show people

394
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,680
you've got their back as well, not dropping them in it, because we're all in it for the same purpose,

395
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:20,320
but there's a delivery and aspiration, a great job satisfaction, that's derived from those successful

396
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:25,760
outcomes and hopefully generates repeat work because in the future date, those other consultants

397
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,040
that you've worked with or the other client you've worked with will make a recommendation

398
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:34,400
to people who they work with and say, yep, that person knows how to get a successful outcome

399
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,080
within that authority, within that barrier. I think people really respect when you tell them

400
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:46,880
the truth, when you give them that feedback, work with them, they need. So what advice, Richard,

401
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:52,320
would you give designers on navigating the complexities of planning permission?

402
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:57,120
Well, as I said, it's the research established if planning permission is required, if just

403
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,360
the builder consensus requires, that's as nearly stage as possible, because that's going to affect

404
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,200
delivery and program, isn't it? And even if you think planning permission isn't required,

405
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,760
I mentioned before, do your planning history search on that website, take a look at the planning

406
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,640
decision notices, there may be a planning application that is required and you think this is

407
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,200
going to go straightforward, this should be fine. They may have had planning permission

408
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,640
refused three years ago or recently on the site, there may be something in that triggers the alarm

409
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:29,280
bells. A lot of the time on the council's website, there'll be the office's report,

410
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:36,080
that is their explanation of the proposals, setting out the planning policy, what the context is,

411
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:42,240
what the material considerations are, what the consultation responses are. There may be

412
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,240
an application which you would think is pretty straightforward, may have generated

413
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,120
great deal of local objections, it might be particularly contentious, you might be revisiting

414
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:59,600
something again, that the local residents may well have felt that they've punctured, they've felt

415
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,440
that the PIXFROX have been out, they've served their purpose and they've been put away again.

416
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,560
Don't darken our door with that idea again. And revisiting again, to send down information

417
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:15,440
in the office's report if it's published. And some application may have been to committee as well,

418
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:20,480
so there's a whole host of information and background research that you can do there.

419
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:25,200
Speak to the planners if it's possible, there's duty planners, they should be accessible,

420
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:31,200
they may not be very experienced, the duty planners, but you would hope that you can have a

421
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,920
conversation with them just to send something out. Now they may direct you to submitting a

422
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:42,240
pre-application inquiry, which will cost money, lead to delay, but it is a valid process,

423
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,640
depends on the woman's instruction and the client, they want to do things properly and have

424
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:52,560
got a bit of time, you can get bogged down in bureaucracy and delays, but you can go down

425
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:57,920
that route as well of putting a pre-application inquiry. You all get out of those inquiries

426
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,160
as questions with the council, what you put into it, what information you're supplying,

427
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:07,600
and what are the questions you're putting to them. So what's a pre-application?

428
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:13,680
So before you submit a planning application, you can put something in writing to the council

429
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:20,240
to give you an informal response. Like I'm looking at doing this kind of thing. Precisely.

430
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:23,120
Do I need planning permission a lot of the time? They'll tell you. No, you don't need

431
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,720
planning permission for that. It won't be a legally binding response, it's the informal,

432
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,560
all the caveats will be on there, the disclaimers, informal opinion of an officer,

433
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,840
because until you see a decision notice in black and white, nothing is guaranteed in

434
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:39,520
town planning, and even after the decision is given, people have a six weeks window to challenge

435
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:47,680
the process. What's it mean, leave money to challenge it? But it has to be on process,

436
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:52,320
the protocols and procedures, and the law hasn't been invited by the delivery of that decision

437
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,200
and that assessment. But you can submit a pre-application inquiry, there's a fee with it,

438
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:04,560
you can include drawings, you can provide some reports as well to support the proposal.

439
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:10,800
The local authority then may come back to you and say, oh, there's a lot here. We want to

440
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,720
enter into an agreement, then there's a planning performance agreement. Avoid those if you can,

441
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:19,120
because they cost more money and need to more delays. It's a revenue earning process, local

442
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:24,160
authority. But they do serve an important process, providing them to speak with the planners informally.

443
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,360
They can give you a list of what you required to submit a planning application as well,

444
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,760
what the policies should be, which is very useful, although you should always do your own

445
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:38,320
research as well. They can give you a background, they might tell you, people have been implying

446
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:43,200
for this for the last 10 years, you've got no chance whatsoever. The neighbours find this

447
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,560
type of development very particularly contentious. They can give you an inside track on that

448
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,960
knowledge basis as well. So we do serve a purpose, but they're not legally binding.

449
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:58,720
And they'll always say the planning application process is the formal question and answer process

450
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:05,040
and a decision notice is the formal response of the planning authority. What would you say are

451
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:13,120
some challenges that designers face when the authorities? It's been able to speak to them,

452
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,680
to understand what they're doing and their communication. Local authorities are under

453
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:24,080
resource, it's well publicised, has been the case for many years. The industry wants planning

454
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:30,240
departments to be resourced so they can access them and provide well-rounded quality responses

455
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:37,120
in good time, delay and uncertainty, lead to different costs, which is just the worst thing

456
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:44,400
for a client, isn't it? So the challenges are understanding their circumstances. There are

457
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:49,680
good and bad planning officers in good and bad local authorities. But if you have that line

458
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,680
of communication wisdom, don't pick your battles, pick your opportunities, ask the questions for

459
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,320
you, demand us to respond because they're very busy with lots of things. But it's having that

460
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:04,240
accessibility to the officers, I think is a key component in going on the journey to achieve

461
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:12,960
the successful outcome. Can I ask a question about listed? So you've got grade one, grade two,

462
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:19,680
grade two star? Grade two star, yes. Is that it? Those are the statutory designations. What do they

463
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:24,720
mean exactly? They're the ranking of importance and grade one would be the highest importance.

464
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:30,800
You have agent monuments as well, which are a whole further designation, but in reverse order,

465
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:36,320
grade two star, grade two and grade one. The substance is made by the Secretary of State

466
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:43,440
in collaboration with Historic England and the Secretary of State will decide ultimately if a

467
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:49,520
building is listed and what grade it should be. So listed buildings are listed if they are deemed

468
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:57,360
to have any architectural or historic value. She would need planning permission for works

469
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:05,520
as defined by the Town and Country Planning Act, section 55. Buildings are listed under planning

470
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:12,000
legislation, but that's under a separate fact. So you may need listed building consent to carry out

471
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:19,120
any works of the fabric of that building. That also applies internally. So it is distinct from

472
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:24,240
development and planning applications. So you may need to apply for listed building consent

473
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:30,720
on works where you don't need planning permission, removing staircases, fireplaces,

474
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,240
all creating openings, knocking about the fabric of a listed building internally.

475
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:42,000
What you recall from section 55, carrying out those works, it's not development in its own

476
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,920
right. It's not the required planning permission, but it may require listed building consent.

477
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,320
Most likely it will require listed building consent. So the two distinct things which will

478
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:55,840
go hand in hand are very important considerations to be aware of as early as possible.

479
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,160
And that's where Historic England get involved, isn't it?

480
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,520
The local authority will normally deal with listed building consent applications themselves,

481
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:09,760
and they will consult with Historic England, and Historic England will often say they're not interested.

482
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,560
It has to be of significant importance. It depends on the degree of importance of the building

483
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:21,840
and the extent of assessments and what the intervention may be. They are more concerned

484
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:28,960
over perhaps the high-grade listing. Building is Grade 1, high degree of importance they'll get

485
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:35,440
involved in. I've been involved in conversion of a Grade 1 listed hospital in the past for

486
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:41,440
residential, and Historic England were part of the consultation process on that pre-academy

487
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,600
stage. Clients will want to involve them if it's something as important as liaison with them.

488
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:53,760
I did a project a few years ago in Wittom. It's called Aka restaurant, and it's a really nice,

489
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,200
really really nice Asian fusion restaurant. Quite popular as well, isn't it?

490
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:04,320
It's really popular. And that was a listed building. So we got an architect involved to

491
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:11,040
help us with the planning on that. And it was really interesting because it was the fireplaces.

492
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:16,000
There was about four fireplaces in this place, and they were beautiful old fireplaces, but one of

493
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:22,240
them was right in the way. So we wanted to cover it up and put a bar in front of it. And they let

494
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:29,440
us do it, but we had to keep the fireplaces integrity and cover it. And that was really

495
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:35,360
interesting because we had a Historic England consultant or who? Officer? Officer. Come. And

496
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:40,480
there was a lot of research done for the building, so the fabric of the building and the history of

497
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:45,040
the building. It's really interesting when you dive into some. Absolutely. On a scheme for the

498
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,760
conversion of a former hotel, it's a vacant hotel, but it's grade two listed. It's been vacant for a

499
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,720
while, and the client wants to convert it to residential apartments. So it's going to require

500
00:46:54,720 --> 00:47:02,000
a bit of knocking up the layouts and the original room sizes are seen as important to the historic

501
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:07,440
value of the property as well. And it has its historic architectural features that need to be

502
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,000
protected as much as possible. But due to the nature of the fire regulations,

503
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,080
means of access and staircases need to be installed and need to be compartmentalized.

504
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,800
You can't have open staircases. So the location of those staircases

505
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:27,920
ought to be within the middle of the room because the implications for the original joists,

506
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,280
the conversations being had about moving away from in front of the fireplace to better reveal

507
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:39,440
that feature, part and components of the context of that fabric of that listed building, the

508
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,840
enjoyment of that listed building, and moving that staircase, which will still need to be

509
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:50,000
compartmentalized unless a secondary access means escape can be provided. But move that away,

510
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:56,160
and the officers are mindful potentially to accepting that the historic joists fabric of the

511
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:01,920
building, they may need to be cut away. But if that means that the scheme can be delivered to help

512
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:09,360
preserve and secure the occupancy of this listed building, yet risk they're willing to make that

513
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:16,320
balance. Okay, that design intervention will be more acceptable than putting a staircase in the

514
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:21,680
middle of the room, which willing to fare with the appreciation of the historic fireplace. So

515
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:26,800
that's an example of those negotiations and the importance within the fabric of a listed building.

516
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:33,600
It's really interesting, isn't it? Because you do one of the things, well, I love history. So

517
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:39,280
always sort of loved it at school. And when you learn about the history of the building,

518
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:44,560
it is so nice. It's so it actually helps for me helps the interior design process as well.

519
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:51,200
Because if I understand the history of the building, it then enables me to design around it

520
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:58,640
as well and like design with a mind. Absolutely. And that is something the narrative around why

521
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:03,280
you've come along by that certain design is something which is part of the story, the sales

522
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:09,600
pitch, if you like, within a planning application. Do you have justifications for schemes and the

523
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,880
planning balance and what's important and what you're going to deliver, what the public benefits

524
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:19,360
are? Part of that is selling the story, the narrative to the planners, to the conservation

525
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:25,760
officers. And they really do enjoy and appreciate that narrative about the historical context.

526
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:31,520
Because buildings have evolved. Listen, buildings may have been listed and then been added onto

527
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:37,280
at certain points in time by building elements online, which would be listed. And they can be

528
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:42,160
given quite significant contrast. The use of the word pastiche is something which is used often

529
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:49,920
as justification to avoid some designs that seek to mimic without going the full extent

530
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:58,880
of the original buildings. And contrasting a design to the historic building can be

531
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,040
successful, but it has to be architecturally acceptable and comply with certain principles.

532
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:10,640
And it's a key point in time of what we did in the 21st century. And it has to be providing

533
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:16,320
its good quality design. It can be acceptable and justified. But it's that history, that story,

534
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,120
telling. So that's important components as well. So I can understand all you say there,

535
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,880
what that means and how you bring forward designs as well.

536
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,800
It's so important that the architecture of the building and the interior design of the building

537
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:37,840
needs to be joined, in my opinion. I mean, not everyone agrees with that. But I think that

538
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:45,680
the way you design is really, really important. It does have implications to the building and you

539
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:51,200
need to make sure the design is cohesive with that. It just makes it feel more authentic.

540
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,880
Yeah, it makes you feel like you're in the right place. Yeah, absolutely. It all talks to it.

541
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:59,440
Yeah, it feels like a character. It's genuine. Yeah, it's having the actual

542
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:06,800
historic characteristics of the building come alive. And that is what makes the building itself.

543
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,840
It's really exciting when those are incorporated in the scheme. In buildings that are repurposed,

544
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:17,920
and their use may have evolved over time. This is often the case. Residential conversions being

545
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,360
a great example. But in those historic buildings, we're taking those features

546
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:29,040
of what may have been an industrial use previously. But buildings are repurposed. It's really

547
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:34,640
exciting the way that designers do that, I find. It's really exciting coming with innovative designs

548
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,560
that respect the history of the context. But then it looks to the future as well.

549
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:49,760
Have you got any strategies for managing clients? We always like tips on managing clients.

550
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:58,960
So, for example, if they've got a listed building and you know that it's going to be a delay

551
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:07,760
more than they expected, and potentially more cost, how would you manage that?

552
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:12,960
You've got any tips? Try and be as honest with them as early as possible and forewarn them in advance.

553
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:20,560
These are the issues that can potentially arise and the implications on cost and delivery,

554
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:25,360
involving people. So, it goes back to that research, that list in the first place and yet

555
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:33,040
informing them. We've all had clients who can be hands-on and good and bad ways. But I don't mind

556
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:37,600
that. As long as you can talk them through it and they're involved in the process,

557
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:43,280
it's the clients that perhaps were hands-on are the ones which I find most difficult because

558
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,800
you're trying to bring them in the tense a lot of the time to think about it. They may be brilliant

559
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:54,400
to certain aspects commercially. Planning won't be the thing that ticks their box. It's just a

560
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:59,040
delay in process but it's involving them in that thought process so that they are involved

561
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,720
getting their decisions because there's only so many decisions that you can make. You can have

562
00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:10,240
instructions from people on how to proceed. It's making them listen to the other consultants as

563
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:17,280
well. No one wants to have unnecessary consultants in the process. People submit planning applications

564
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:23,360
a lot of the time who aren't planning consultants because of the costs that we bring. It's a fact,

565
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:28,080
it's a reality. Sometimes we aren't required. People can go ahead and do things and it's been

566
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,800
an unnecessary cost if they've involved us and other consultants as well. You're always

567
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,600
mindful of the commercial implications and clients don't want to hear you continue saying,

568
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,200
well, you need to spend this amount of money on that consultant. They may need another report for

569
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:47,840
the council. But making them aware that they're going into an uncontrollable process, going

570
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:54,960
into planning, it's the decision maker, the council, who lead that process as frustrating as it is.

571
00:53:54,960 --> 00:54:02,960
And not all councils are the same. Proheres are councillors as well. Some councillors aren't too

572
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:09,200
bothered about having to provide certain reports and certain areas. But it's just making them aware

573
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:15,040
of the implications, really, about the cost and delay. Getting things sorted as soon as possible

574
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,160
will speed up the process later down the line.

575
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:25,440
Are there any common misconceptions about planning within the interior design industry?

576
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:34,080
Well, I can only presume that there are. Talking as an ex-authority officer and dealing with

577
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,680
responses of people as soon as you tell them that you're a town planner, obviously,

578
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:43,680
people think that they're overly bureaucratic. They are slow, don't appreciate commercial

579
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:49,760
sensitivities and even corrupt to a certain degree. I would always say that local authority

580
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:57,120
officers are not corrupt. You may perceive that they may be inept. I don't want to really use

581
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,720
that word because lots of my... What does inept mean? You're teaching me some fine words today.

582
00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:03,120
What does inept mean? Well, not... Be going right in my dictionary.

583
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:10,160
Not necessarily on the brief entirely. I don't want to really use that because I have lots of

584
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:15,280
good friends who are still local authority officers. I was a local authority officer for 12 years and

585
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:20,480
I used to defend to the health local authorities and I will do. Yeah, good and bad local authorities,

586
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:26,560
as I mentioned. The perceptions are you're going to a black hole. If you can do your research,

587
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,640
you'll have to take that relationship and get some form of relationship with those officers,

588
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:36,880
then you can hopefully show the officers that you have got good intentions, not to over egg

589
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:44,160
certain elements. Don't waste their time. Don't bombard them with emails. Don't tell them their job.

590
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,560
Don't tell them what to do. You will go to the bottom of the pile very easily. They'll be a big

591
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:54,080
pile of things that they need to do. It sounds like you've got some experience within that.

592
00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:03,120
A little bit of experience. When you were a local authority, when you had a phone on your desk and

593
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:08,800
the phone went before mobile phones, the authority who was calling and yours, I enjoyed answering that

594
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:14,240
phone. You didn't know who it was going to be. It could count so that he was really going to put

595
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:19,920
you on the spot about a certain application and you had to have your wits about you provided a

596
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:26,320
straight responses. Could be a neighbouring consultee or could be a resident. It could be very

597
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:31,680
challenging. It's funny, the smaller the scale of application, such as an extension to someone's

598
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:37,680
house, more personal they are. Those can be the most emotional and emotionally challenging for

599
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:43,440
people as well. It's appreciating people's circumstances. I had a lot of tears on the phone

600
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:49,360
coming down for me, which is, I don't want to say just the job, but it's a firing application.

601
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:54,640
I've got to be divorced, separate myself from the emotions when you're a local authority officer as

602
00:56:54,640 --> 00:57:01,840
well. They won't be emotional about it. They've got a lot to deal with. The challenges are the

603
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:07,680
next email these days and getting council officers to respond to your emails as well can be very

604
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,480
difficult because you don't have the contact numbers anymore. You don't have the phone on the

605
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:15,200
desk, you're working from home, you don't have council mobile phone numbers. Contact details

606
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:20,400
aren't available anymore on their email addresses back in the day. I've noticed that

607
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:26,960
quite a lot and not just with planning, with so many people, I go to call them and I'm like,

608
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:35,200
they don't have their phone number on the email. I feel like everybody should be made to put their

609
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:42,560
phone number on there. That's the thing we do. We get so many calls. It can be a real challenge

610
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:52,000
to engage with them effectively. I've heard a lot about biodiversity net gain, is it?

611
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:58,640
Yes, that's right. What does that mean? There's new environmental legislation that came into

612
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:06,560
force earlier on this year and it's a basic requirement that all development sites or planning

613
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:13,360
applications have got to assess what the existing biodiversity value of a site is. If there is

614
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:21,120
biodiversity on the site, you are required to improve on that value by 10%. What does biodiversity

615
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:28,880
value? Is that like plants? Yes, effectively plants, insects, animals, flora and fauna.

616
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:38,640
So, an ecologist are best placed to provide the advice on it and they ultimately would need to

617
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:45,680
conduct a survey of what the existing ecological value, if you wish, the biodiversity value of

618
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:52,480
that site is. Obviously, the larger the site, the more the site includes existing and escaping,

619
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:58,480
the more likelihood that it will have a higher degree of biodiversity. If you're in the countryside

620
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:02,720
and you're looking to carry out works in a planning application, that includes the red

621
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:10,560
outline of the planning application site, includes countryside or even in the town centre,

622
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:18,000
they can be what's known as open mosaic sites where derelict sites or ground, they will have a high

623
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:28,320
biodiversity. They're a thriving home to insects and wildlife. So, it's the aspiration to address

624
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:34,880
the reduction in biodiversity in the environment, to use development then to increase that biodiversity,

625
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:38,560
to put something back to the aspiration of a target is a minimum of 10%.

626
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:45,040
Do you add 10%? So, what happens if you want to build on a field then?

627
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:54,080
You're going to have to really work hard. Innovative designs, this is where

628
00:59:54,080 --> 01:00:00,400
landscapers and ecologists are becoming a lot in a lot of teams, one and the same.

629
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:07,280
So, it's part of that design process and we're advising clients that it's going to inform the

630
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:16,800
design at inception. How are you going to include significant areas of gaping and what is the

631
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:22,320
design of that soft landscaping? Because certain species will have a higher value than others,

632
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:26,960
be they in flora and fauna. So, this is where the input of an ecologist is required

633
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:34,560
at an early stage to provide that advice. It's indicative of unfortunately how planning has become

634
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:41,040
over the last couple of decades, so much more money is required on consultants to provide more

635
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:47,040
detailed recommendations and assessments at an early stage, at design stage, but historically,

636
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:52,400
they would be covered under condition, but they go to the core of the principle these days of

637
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,800
whether the scheme is acceptable or not, not in what it's an add-on that can be covered by a condition

638
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:03,680
to submit at the future stage. So, just touching on conditions to advise you about, conditions can

639
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:08,480
lead to delays. You'll get your planning commission, but then there will be conditions attached

640
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,600
that you will need to comply with and a condition application is a formal application which

641
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:18,560
in theory takes eight weeks to determine, that's the target date, because it will lead in time

642
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:24,560
to collate the information that's required to submit that application as well. So, where you can

643
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:30,800
include that information at the planning application stage as much as possible, you can

644
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:36,880
avoid hopefully then too many conditions being attached. It's inevitable that you'll get conditions

645
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:42,080
on that require you to submit information that can be the prior to commencement of the scheme,

646
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:46,080
which is the worst case scenario, prior to the carrying out of that particular element of the

647
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:52,560
works. That's occupancy, for example, but you will need to secure those conditions before

648
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:58,640
the scheme ultimately can be signed off. So, those are important aspects that to be aware of,

649
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:03,200
and that's where you're alive to what the consultation responses are that come in during

650
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:07,440
a course of a planning application, what the policy requirements are as well.

651
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:13,440
When you're submitting a planning condition application, you can include as many conditions

652
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:19,520
on that one application as you wish, but our advice would always be submit them separately,

653
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:25,360
because if there's one element of those details that you're submitting, they're unacceptable,

654
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:30,320
the whole application will be refused potentially, and you're back to square one again. So, submit

655
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:37,280
them individually, treat them as blind and clunker, tick them off. So, there may be, depending

656
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,640
on the complexity of the scheme and how many conditions and details you need to submit,

657
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:46,080
but you hope to just narrow it down and limit it then, and you can work on those. It's far

658
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:51,280
more manageable as well. It's not so overwhelming if you've got to try and deal with too many

659
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:55,360
conditions and you've got too many plates spinning. Whilst you're trying to manage the

660
01:02:55,360 --> 01:03:00,480
project and the client's expectations and all these other issues.

661
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:07,520
When we were at this construction networking event, there was a couple of people really

662
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:14,320
moaning about the fact that you need an ecologist now and it's causing a lot more delays. Is

663
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:15,440
that what you're experiencing?

664
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:19,440
Absolutely. There's been a massive spike in demand for ecologists. They're in demand,

665
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:24,000
and so, of course, their costs and fees are going to go up. We're being quoted two, three

666
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:25,600
months leading time.

667
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:26,640
Oh, wow.

668
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:28,240
Absolutely, to provide their reports.

669
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:33,920
If you're looking at a career and you want to be an ecologist, it's probably a good place

670
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:34,720
to be at the moment.

671
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:40,640
At the moment, yes. There's also only particular windows when you can carry out particular

672
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:48,320
surveys on particular species. Bat roosting surveys, for example, they can only take place

673
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:53,040
from May to September, I think it is. So, if a local authority says you need to provide a

674
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:57,360
bat roosting survey with this planning application, we can't determine it now.

675
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,080
It's October. Exactly.

676
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:01,600
Then you've got to wait till next year.

677
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:02,160
That's a problem.

678
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:08,080
So, the forward thinking, forward planning, how you deal with that challenge, how you

679
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:12,320
negotiate that challenge. Now, as a class example, you try and get that as a condition.

680
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:17,360
Hopefully, it's not imperative. It doesn't go to the core of the suitability and the

681
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,120
assessments of the suitability of that scheme. These are the things you need to take into

682
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:27,280
account of. Ecologists, yes, trying to get hold of them and get them to reliably respond

683
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:32,240
is a challenge because they're in demand. They've got contact with lots of good ecologists,

684
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:38,240
but they've been very honest in saying there's two, three months' lead in times with these

685
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:44,240
things, unfortunately. They're overworked at the moment. So, yes, there are those delays.

686
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:51,280
What the design, go back to the design scheme has got to incorporate

687
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:56,240
the potential and future proof. Yeah, really, really important.

688
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:04,000
Is there any advice you would like the people that are listening to

689
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:07,440
Remembang take from this podcast today?

690
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:12,080
Yes. Well, there's sustainability and energy, which are very important players as well.

691
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:15,360
Local authorities will ask for technical information, technical details.

692
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:23,280
The amount of carbon emissions from development is very much a key material plan of consideration.

693
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:29,280
Factor those in as well. I know you've had people speaking about that in the past,

694
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,360
and it really does apply to occasions.

695
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:38,080
Rely upon the resource that you have, involve consultants, get that network of consultants

696
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:44,960
you can rely upon as well. If you need to involve a scheme designer or an architect, etc.,

697
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:49,840
there's knowledge, no brains in all honesty. When it comes to fire safety,

698
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:54,480
secure by design, wheelchair accessibility, those key components as well.

699
01:05:55,440 --> 01:06:00,160
Planning is secondary legislation. Those other matters, and usually primary legislation,

700
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:04,320
so they come first, but you still need to get your planning permissions in place if needs be.

701
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:10,800
It's being sensitive and aware of what the requirements are, I think is key.

702
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:17,760
I think as a designer, I don't think I'm qualified to do planning, even though people have expected

703
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:22,640
me to, and you don't have to be qualified, but it's such a minefield.

704
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:24,480
There is so much you need to know.

705
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:28,480
You think that something's going to be really simple. I've been doing advertising consent

706
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:31,600
planning, and most of the time it's really easy.

707
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,200
It should be.

708
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:37,600
Sometimes you get that, and then I got one that was just an nightmare.

709
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:38,400
When someone on you...

710
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:45,600
And you just don't know. I think if you would have picked that up, you would have sent it

711
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:49,040
straight away, but because I've not got the experience that you've got.

712
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:51,200
It's the experience.

713
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:57,840
Then that means that the patient's been rejected, and that goes, like you say, that goes on me.

714
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:02,640
I don't want to be getting rejected by applications.

715
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:08,160
So I would always now recommend a planning consultant.

716
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:08,960
That's music's my ears.

717
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:11,840
It's the pain in the ass, and I'm a designer.

718
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,200
I'm not a planning consultant, so I don't know what.

719
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:16,560
I do that not very often.

720
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:18,000
This is a complete cloning of the ass.

721
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,520
A 25-year experience.

722
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:28,080
There's not going to be ever a perfect process, and there's a big balance, because you've got

723
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:31,680
the challenges of satisfying all of the people all the time.

724
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:32,800
There's no possibility.

725
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:39,120
But it is that balance, because we've got to progress, and we've got to keep on moving

726
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:40,160
forwards, haven't we?

727
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:42,000
We've got to provide houses for people.

728
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:49,440
We've got to support, protect people's immunity at the end of the day, and make a sustainable

729
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:56,800
environment as much for people, and make it as easy for people to live in as possible

730
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:00,240
without the world becoming even more difficult.

731
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:03,040
A sustainable future.

732
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:04,640
That's a key.

733
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:05,680
That's a key.

734
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:11,440
How can our audience get in touch with you, or learn more about Karni Sweeney's work?

735
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:17,440
Well, I'm going to clear on all the appropriate resources online.

736
01:08:17,440 --> 01:08:20,240
Karni Sweeney's website is accessible.

737
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:24,080
My contact details are on Karni Sweeney's webpage.

738
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:25,440
I'm obviously on LinkedIn.

739
01:08:25,440 --> 01:08:27,040
I'm trying to be as active as possible.

740
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:32,480
If I have downtime on there, it's because I've got lots of work to do.

741
01:08:32,480 --> 01:08:36,480
Which is no bad thing, but it's a valuable resource LinkedIn.

742
01:08:36,480 --> 01:08:38,480
My contact details are on there.

743
01:08:38,480 --> 01:08:41,840
Richard Evans, town planner, Karni Sweeney.

744
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:45,840
I'll put all of your details in the notes as well, so people can click.

745
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:47,440
Thank you very much.

746
01:08:47,440 --> 01:08:51,120
We're there to fill out all sorts of queries, hopefully assist people.

747
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:55,840
If we can identify something which people can deal with themselves,

748
01:08:55,840 --> 01:09:02,640
don't need to burden themselves with our fees or time.

749
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:04,640
We'll seek to assist people there.

750
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:09,040
Obviously, everyone's looking to tailor their cloth accordingly, aren't they?

751
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:09,840
Absolutely.

752
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:11,840
Yeah, definitely.

753
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:13,440
Thank you so much, Richard.

754
01:09:13,440 --> 01:09:15,840
You are a wealth of knowledge.

755
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:21,040
I feel like I am just overstimulated with so much information.

756
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:24,240
All of my brain is going to explode, but good knowledge.

757
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:28,640
I've definitely learned a lot of things today, and I'm sure that everyone listening

758
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:30,240
has learned a lot as well.

759
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:31,440
I hope so.

760
01:09:31,440 --> 01:09:35,440
It's a never-ending knowledge basis when it comes to town planning.

761
01:09:35,440 --> 01:09:36,640
Every day is a school day.

762
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:41,040
What I was learning, aren't we, from our experiences and the experiences of others,

763
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:45,040
the planning doesn't stand still, and that's also perhaps one key takeaway.

764
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:46,040
It doesn't stand still.

765
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:52,640
Policy, legislation, case law, it all changes, and it's a moveable feast.

766
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:57,040
So we've just got to be alive to that and navigate our way through it.

767
01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:59,040
Absolutely.

768
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:01,040
Thank you very much.

769
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:09,040
Thank you so much to platform events who have kindly supplied us our lounge to have our podcast in today.

770
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:14,080
We wanted to just give the watchers group a mention as well because she's given us some

771
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:17,040
pitching, which are very well on this sofa.

772
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:21,040
You can only see them if you are watching.

773
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,040
So maybe give us a watch as well.

774
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,040
Yes, but we have been gifted these beautiful cushions.

775
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,040
I would definitely have a look at their website.

776
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:29,040
They are lovely.

777
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:33,040
Yeah, very much for joining us, and we'll see you next time.

778
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:43,040
Bye.