Welcome to the Interior Design Podcast. I'm Hailey Roy, a commercial interior designer
with a passion for creating beautiful functional spaces. Over the years, I've worked on a variety
of projects and I've accumulated a wealth of knowledge which I'm excited to share with you.
I started this podcast because I believe in the power of interior design,
so much of what we need to know as designers you won't learn in the classroom.
Whether you're an aspiring designer, tackling your home project, or a seasoned pro,
this podcast is for you. Season two is here and I couldn't be more thrilled to kick things off
with some fresh energy and exciting changes. This season I'm joined by not one but two
incredible co-hosts, Hannah Denny and Scarlett Mallett. Together we're diving deeper into the
world of design to bring you more perspectives, lively debates and all the tips and tricks you
need to thrive. We're here to offer practical advice, discuss the latest trends and give you
unfiltered real world insights, expect honest conversations, a bit of humour and maybe even
the occasional strong opinion and language. Remember if it's not fun, we're not doing it
and if you're a sound editor looking for a fun collaboration, let us know. We'd love to have
you on board. Thanks for tuning in to season two of the Interior Design podcast.
Welcome to the Interior Design podcast. Today we are hosted by Platform Events
at the O2 Intercontinental Hotel and it is the Interior Design and Architecture Summit at the
moment and we've been doing some speed dating with suppliers, 20 minute meetings with Platform
Events which we do every year and thoroughly enjoy. Yeah, I mean sometimes you get carried away
because you want to speak to so many people but that is what the evening is for. Yeah, we had a
lovely night last night and we had a nice dinner and you really get a lot of opportunities
being at this event which I love. We do it most years so we highly. Yeah and behind us is the Thames
and we are joined by the amazing Richard Evans from Karni Sweeney. Did I say that right? You did
too. Yeah, hello. Thank you very much for helping me. I'd like to just introduce Richard by saying
that I met him on a job that we were doing together and one of the reasons that I invited him on the
podcast was because he was extremely eloquent in the way that he spoke to the client and explained
things in such a way that I thought that everybody who listens to the podcast would benefit it. So
we're talking about UK planning and yeah, let you introduce yourself. Thank you very much. So I'm
a qualified town planner. I'm a member of the Royal Town Planning Institute, the RTPI but anybody can
call themselves a planner through the decision making process. So I have been practicing for 25
years and it's an important distinction as you often hear people being referred to as the planners
made a decision to approve or refuse this. It's not just the actual qualified planners,
town planners who are called planners and planning committee members who have no perhaps
qualification whatsoever other than a bit of training to be on the committee. They are planners
and they make that decision. So I have 12 years experience at local authority. Following that,
I worked for a property developer for four years. So I gained a commercial awareness
and time imperative and appreciation for the implications for any bureaucratic delays on
program and delivery. But I have been working as a planning consultant for the last nine years,
advising private clients and navigate their way through the planning process and this can
include from site acquisition, formulation of design concepts, formulation of the planning
applications. This involves including liaison with council planners and other stakeholders
in advance of the submission. We do a lot of post-approval work as designs can change. Once
the builders get on site and the client gets on site and really gets to grips with what can
actually be achieved, it's not always what they have planning permission for. So a lot of design
changes occur which will need to go back to planning. We guide the clients on how to best
minimize any delays through that process. So I deal with a broad range of planning applications and
in two weeks I have a plan application going forward to committee for 1900 homes and a development
includes buildings up to 33 stories in height. But by contrast earlier this week I submitted
the plan application that included primarily for a new door in the shopfront in a conservation area.
So it's a broad range of planning application work that we do.
And you all seem to be a DJ, didn't you? No. No, no. The reason that he's just to explain,
if you can see it on YouTube, he's wearing like his headphones without being on one of his ears.
I'm just used to listening to the music through one ear and in the headphones and
what's going on the speakers here that I'm not. I've never been a professional DJ anyway, Shapo.
Bedroom DJ. Oh, bedroom DJ. Sorry, I've outed you then. I'm available for bookings.
So what made you go into planning in the first place? Oh, that's a very good question.
I always appreciated and loved the makeup of towns, how they evolved in certain areas, why
certain areas were what they did, what they did. Maybe they residential and the
intensification in residential areas and how they interacted with the commercial areas and
routes through the people taken to the human interaction. Planning covers social, economic
and the physical as the three tenants of planning. We all interlinked. So you can,
it's an assessment of what influences what, but I was always fascinated by towns. So we're discussing
here, we're a country boy, I was brought up in a house in the field on the side of a valley
in Wales and my father was a farmer. I thought it was a curse. I just wanted to live in towns and
cities and see how they evolved because there's so much action going on there. And I'm interested
in politics as well and they're very much interlinked and planning in the environment
with the obvious choice and I've never regretted it. Although if I was a professional DJ, I would
have obviously been happy with that route. So being in the countryside and on the farm with
your family, you were always interested in sightseeing within the bigger towns. Very much so.
When we had an annual trip to come and see my auntie and uncle and my cousins in London,
and I always look forward to that and really enjoyed that. And so it's all in. But town planning
affects the countryside just as much as the towns as well. And I've been a planning officer in rural
authorities in green belts countryside, so with agricultural buildings, etc. as well. So it applies
everywhere. It's not prejudice where it intervenes and causes bureaucracy.
So you say that it applies everywhere, but would you say you get more work with the cities rather
than the countryside? We deal with broad range of queries. I've just attended the Peel hearing this
week for an alleged development within the green belt, within the countryside outside the town.
It's on the boundary and close proximity to the town. But we do a broad range of work. A lot of
inquiries will come from people who are looking to develop in the countryside. And that's becoming
more and more prevalent and will do going forward with changes to national planning policy on potential
new towns and developments in the green belt in the countryside as well on the periphery of towns
where the opportunities are to deliver more housing and more commercial developments. So we deal a lot
of queries in the countryside as well, not just urban areas, but based in London. We do a lot of work
within London as well. Yeah. So in the context of interior design, how would you define planning?
The geeky bit. I think it's important to lay out. So development is what we refer to. And development
is defined in the Town and Country Planning Act. So development requires Planning Commission. I'll
read out to you at the section 55 if you're making notes of the Act. And that states that
development is defined as the carrying out of building, engineering, mining or other operations
in, on or under land, or the making of any material change in the use of any buildings
or other land. So that sets out in statute the position. The Act also goes on to identify that
certain operations or uses of land are not classes development, which is very important. And these
comprise primarily of the carrying out for the maintenance improvements or alteration,
otherwise of any building of works, which in fact don't need the interior of a building,
or do not material effect the external appearance of the building. There are other exemptions that
apply as well, such as incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling house, that can range from working
from home in your office, and you comply with certain criteria, or even the keeping of animals
in your back garden, such as keeping horses or hens, for example. So there's lots of definitions
there. So if I want some chickens, I'm going to need to apply for Planning Commission for them.
No, providing that they are in connection with the enjoyment of your dwelling. If you're operating a
commercial business there, for those who are in connection with those hens, that's when the
tipping point would be that assessments are change of use, would occur. So if you had eggs, and you
had too many eggs, and you sold them for a pound out the front, at that point they become a business.
It would be a matter of fact and degree, which is a key phrase in town planning, an assessment would
be made. Okay, what are the characteristics of that? If you are setting a stall up, and if you're
employing someone, and if you're getting deliveries and a van, turning up picking things, picking up
eggs and dropping off egg boxes on a regular basis, and you've got lots of people travelling
within their cars and coming and causing a noise and disturbance and parking everywhere,
there would be characteristic of a business taking place, because it has an impact on your
neighbours and on the parking lot locale and highway safety and all these issues that wouldn't
need to be considered under a planning application. If you're doing it once in one hour, and you're
you know, you're not employing anybody, that would be ancillary. I would suggest.
What does ancillary mean? Oh, god.
Thank you very much for putting me on the spot there. That's a very good question.
That's something which isn't defined as being a significant difference to what you would normally
anticipate or expect to take place at the primary use. In itself, it can be quite a large use. For
example, the hotel is a good case in point, it might have a restaurant, the members of the public
can visit, but proportionately, it's not a significant component of the use. It doesn't
change the balance significantly. Majority of people will be coming from the hotel for purposes of
the use in connection with staying at the hotel and the deliveries associated with that and
making it members of the public coming and visiting. We're not guests, but it would be seen proportionately
part of the wider use, I would suggest. So it would be for me to own a hotel or get one with an
external restaurant. So that would be an ancillary use in connection with the main use.
It's quite interesting to think that so many people do that.
Working from home is the classic and best example. Particularly now, obviously,
in the face of the pandemic, people work from home, they'll set up a desk there,
that's ancillary, so I think it's the most classic example of an ancillary activity that
if you were employing people who were coming and having to park their cars there, for example,
if you were getting deliveries, you were having collections, and if you were having
members of the public or customers visiting, the balance shifts, balance changes there.
You would become mixed use, because you're still living there. Oh, I used to do that.
I didn't know that you needed planning for that. Oh, no. Sorry. Just hold everyone. Sorry, universe.
I don't think I'm going to do anymore. If you've used, if you've seen the news.
Mixed forever in my house. Yeah, you've seen the news. So that's a really,
a better example than the egg salad. So why is planning permission and understanding the
regulations so crucial for interior designers? It's, it really is critical. You have implications,
what it may mean on programme and delivery. The worst case scenario is carrying out work,
which requires planning permission. You'll have an enforcement officer potentially knocking on the
door, following receipt of a complaint of something so obvious that they've observed
for themselves. And that's going to, you know, any such intervention is going to be problematic
for the operator or the owner of the site anyway. But it's best legally to get all your papers in
order, because you never know when that's going to cause a problem, be it in financing, an operator,
financing, an operation as a future data or if you were looking to sell or dispose of anything.
If it's found that to be appropriate planning permission isn't in place, that is going to
have ramifications on the value, obviously on the undilays. But whilst works are taking place,
obviously there's an investment there, which hasn't been authorised potentially. So it is
critical that the appropriate consents are put in place and everyone's comfortable with that.
So when I go into a property, I would check the planning on that property.
So we would always recommend you take a look at councils website. They are a great resource.
Each planning authority will have their planning section on their website, where you can take a
look at the planning history of the site. It's one of the first things that we do, if anyone
makes an inquiry about a particular site and suggests they want to do something there,
you take a look at the planning history and you'd also take a look at the planning policy.
You've got to assess whether planning commission is required, whether it is development.
When you are doing that, you should take a look at the planning history of the property because
the planning commission may be in place originally, but on historical planning permissions, there may
well be conditions as well. So you need to burrow a little bit deeper into the decision notice,
take a look at the conditions. There might be a restricted condition on there.
That's ordinarily what you may wish to carry out would be perfectly acceptable,
but you may look to do. There may be a restricted condition on there that prevents that. So I'd
always take a look at the planning decision and get in full receipt of the facts of what's going
on there. But you need to establish whether planning commission is required, first of all.
It's not just planning permission on the development, if a property is listed, it's
thoroughly listed and you can check the Historic England website. They keep the list of all the
buildings which are listed and it's grading. The reason why it's listed as well can be for its
architectural quality or for its historic value. It's such an important area to take a look at
and see confirmation of. So the local planning authorities website is the key resource you
would take. Where would you use the planning portal? Because there's a portal that covers the whole
country, isn't there? That's right. You would need to use the planning portal to submit planning
applications and list the consent applications. So the information isn't actually there, is it?
No. Because I always go on the planning portal and then I end up, and then it takes me to the
local authority. That's right. So you just punch in the local authority planning policy or planning
application search and you will find that information there. So local planning authorities
should have an adopted plan. We should talk about the development plan and that's made up of the
local authorities plan itself. But also there's the national planning policy framework as well.
And in London, we have the strategic London plan, which has further policies as well. We would always
take a look at the local authorities website for their local plan, which may, depending on when it
was adopted, may comprise a few different documents and there will be a policies map on there as well.
So you can physically take a look at your site and you can take a look at if there are any
designations on it. So it may be in the conservation area, it might be in town centres, you have the
town centres are defined as well, which has a link to applicable policies. There may be primary
shopping frontages, secondary shopping frontages, and those can affect the types of use that the
local authority would accept there as well. And the importance of that street within the town centre
and the commercial centre has. So there's all myriads of policies will be designated on there,
such as green belts as well. So how would you say planning affects interior design projects?
For example, if you go again, commercial versus residential, you need to satisfy all the planning
policies. They have the same means to an end. Obviously commercial clients and instructions
will have a tight timeframe and they'll have funding behind them. And they'll have an opening date
by which the purpose of that existence kicks in and they get the return on the money, so
on the investment. So planning can delay program. And that's a key aspect there. I think it's
imperative that at an early stage, the clients, be they commercial or residential, they're given full
receipt of the position when planning comes into play. So they're aware what they're letting
themselves in for, what the requirements are going to be, so they can assess risks themselves.
We take our instructions from clients and they're decision makers. They'll be informed by our advice
and our guidance, but to give, to properly research what are the implications for anything. It's
imperative because they're interwoven and they're not just controlled by planning, which is secondary
legislation, but you have other influences as well. You have secured by design, you have the fire
safety regulations, you have wheelchair accessibility requirements. It's now part M of the building
regulations. It used to be DDA, the Disabled Disciplinary Act. So there's all those things
at play which will come into effect. I'm sure you guys are fully aware of the ramifications for those.
You're planning as well. You'll bring it to the fore when applications are being scrutinized at
planning application stage. So there may be the need for you to include specialist consultants
as well who can advise on these things. Daylight sunlight, for example, can affect new schemes,
new house bills, etc. For example, where the target standards that are required to meet
daylight sunlight standards. So they'll affect layout interior of rooms, proximity to the windows,
and you may come up with solutions to insert a high-level window or even a skyline to address that.
But there are daylight sunlight specialists and that can advise as well. Daylight sunlight
is that's a measure of what the reasonably expected levels of internal daylight within a room.
And is there standards that you have to meet? So BRI sets out guidelines and new guidelines
were published two years ago. They are guidelines, so they're not absolutely
prescriptive that you must meet those. The planning process is a process of judging the
planning balance. So going back to the local plan, come for a moment, the development plan,
the aspiration, the requirements is that you meet the planning, the local plan as a whole.
But there are priorities within the local plan. So not all policies will always be met all of the
time. We don't live in that world. Planning officers when you speak with them will always
aspire and seek to push you and drive you to each of those. That's their job. But the planning
balance at the end of the day needs to be derived. What are the important things?
What are the restrictions on the site? What are the benefits? What's the justification
for what you're proposing? Something may be in conflict with policy, but it may be over an
overriding benefit and other primary policies are being met. So the planning process always pursue
those as the primary objective. So they come in when we're dealing with daylight sunlight.
So the policy will be in there to be clear that daylight sunlight must be met. BRI
guidelines will be the go-to, benchmark, but then different levels of daylight and levels of
sunlight as well, which are two different things are targeted and they are targets prescribed for
different rooms within residential properties. And also the impact on overshadowing is on the
neighbouring properties by a new construction as well. So typically those will be assessed on
large developments, not all units as we call them or homes or rooms will always meet all the targets
all the time. That's impossible, but a large proportion of them should do and there should be
justification why. Then the balance is struck then. Why do we have that in place daylight
sunlight? Is it something to do with mental health? Well, for planning terms it will be immunity.
That is the catch-all phrase that covers a lot of different aspects. Immunity is your enjoyment,
essentially the quality of that place. So immunity can apply to visual immunity.
So a new build or installing a new shopfront will have implications on the townscape and the street
scene, the character of an area and that will be assessed. And if a planning officer in their
planning speak in the assessments, I'm not happy with that. They will advise that it's
injurious to the enjoyment of the visual immunity of a location. So
immunity can also apply to individuals' enjoyment of their dwelling house. It's a
carefully crafted phrase that can catch a few different aspects, considerations as well.
And it's not a science, it is an art, it's on judgments, planning judgments and balance.
So it's interesting you saying that we worked on a project at the start of the year and it was
planning for a window. It's really important to know that planning can take so long. One thing
that I can say that I've definitely learned, get that planning done as soon as possible.
And what we really had to take into consideration, like you were saying, was about the natural light.
Well, it's a natural light way to make sure about the window, how much you could open it because
facing it, there were people's apartments. You really have to take so much into account
with planning. Like it already sounds complicated. A lot goes into it and there's so many things you
need to take into account. But one thing that I have definitely learned is get started on doing
your planning as soon as possible. That is one thing that I really have learned within this
industry and I highly probably agree with him. So can you? Absolutely. Absolutely. And you touched
on a classic example that I may achieve, improve daylight sunlight and sunlight, but you're going
to look into someone's, which would mean that it would be unacceptable. But there's then mitigation
that you can have as you said. There's things that you can do. Limit the opening of that window,
obscure glazing. Yeah, it needs to be a certain level. But then the aesthetic with design of that
window. Now it appears in the street scene and the context of the building. Yeah. Again,
our importance. Yeah, you've got to make sure that the planning doesn't implicate the design,
but also the design doesn't implicate the planning getting approved. And so there's so much to
consider. Absolutely. Absolutely. The sooner you have an understanding of what the implications are,
what the brief is, what the aspiration is, and how the appropriate people in the room
to advise and guide you on that design evolution, that design inception stage. And it's important
that the clients aware of that as well, the journey that they may have to go on. Clients naturally
don't want to hear about any problems. They want to accelerate the processing,
get the operational activity underway, but to accelerate too quickly, then you're going to
trip yourself up and it will become worse further down the line. That's the issue. And
the frustration kick in then because of the design implications, program, delivery and cost, the budget
as well. And once people, clients have a fixed view on cost, they don't want to hear about any
more problems or additional costs, any burdens that just leads to further stress and the
relationship. So it's really to forward plan as much as possible, get cracking with what will be
required. So if you need to submit a planning application, you need to go on the council's
website, take a look at the policies and appreciate what the policies may be. But also take a look
at the validation checklist and that list, what types of reports and assessments are required
for a planning application. Those can be prepared and you get those experts involved in the process
at the early stage to give you their brief and their requirements. So you're presenting a list
of deliverables as early as possible, what needs to be covered, or what they need to cover as well,
what they need to include. And there can be so many that are interwoven and interdependent as well.
And liaison between those consultants. So with a planning application, you want to get that as
future proof as possible. Yeah, I have a question. Some interior designers are
applying for planning and I have had some pub group clients expect that as part of our
read and I've stopped doing it now. I've stopped applying for planning permission basically because
I'd much rather ring Richard and say help. The reason for it is that I took on an advertising
consent planning application in Westminster. Oh yeah. Right outside of Leicester Square.
And actually the client has stopped paying me to do it. And I don't think they've actually got
planning. I don't think they've done it. And I ended up calling a friend of mine before I met you,
Richard, a guy called Robert Pomeroy, who's alone. And he gave me loads of advice and told me what
to do because I was just like Westminster Councilor just chucking out everything I was giving them.
And then I went back to the client and said, you need to pay me to do more drawings because the
council need all these other drawings and they didn't want to pay anymore. So it kind of it just
died of death really. But that's going to have an implication on you as well, isn't it? In a sense,
I feel like if by them not paying you, it's made an implication because you're trying to help them
with the planning and they're stopping that. So it's well, it's the client's choice, isn't it?
Would you be responsible for informing the council? The council will leave the onus on
the landowner. So it's not, it's not, if he doesn't want, if they don't want to pay me to do it,
would it not implicate the designer because they've been appointed for it? No, no. The local
authority, they may seek to get in contact with you if they can't get in contact with the landowner
or the management company in the first place, the clients. But if they see something potentially
unauthorized and Westminster's one of the largest authorities because of the amount of commercial
applications they get for the signage and the like, it's a very difficult task to keep up with
everything. But they have one of the largest enforcement teams as well, historically. But
yes, they would take that up with the operator. So the client, they can't just turn around and go,
well, we've put our designer in charge when realistically behind the scenes, it's nice.
Well, I've got a paper chain as well to say this is what it's to get planning permission,
I need more drawings. As you have it provided. And I need you to pay me to do the drawings. So
therefore you need to pay me to do this. Or, you know, I don't know what they've done,
they might have gone to a planning consultant. But yeah, so that sort of just went away in the
end. But I spent so much time on that. But what happened was there was the existing fascia
when we took over had not got planning permission either. So what was in the planning
was the previous person. But they wanted drawings of, they kind of wanted the history. So they
wanted me to draw up what was existing. So photographs and things like that weren't enough,
they wanted me to draw all of that up. And then they wanted me the further changes. So it was
like almost like a three face. And that was the problem, because it hadn't got planning previously.
And that, and I think that's why the client just went, well, the guy before me didn't get any
planning, and he didn't get told off. So it's like, I'll ask for forgiveness, not permission,
you know, and that's what they ended up doing. You can see why a lot of commercial operators
will say, well, if we hadn't told the planners in the first place, we'd have just gone ahead
and done it and no one would say anything. Anyway, lots of that goes on. That's planning a risk for
years. And that's a commercial decision by clients. I've double-priced the snow. We're talking about
that as explained to the clients why we're submitting these drawings and what needs to be done.
Because the original historical use would be the lawful, sorry, the historic shopfront would be
the lawful shopfront. But in context to what is you're proposing, you will need to provide
a drawing of what's there at the moment, whether or not it's lawful or not is, you know, is the
question. It's what you're proposing will be judged on its merits against what the lawful
shopfront is and whether it's an improvement on that. A lot of the time, something in its own right
may not satisfy the local design officer. And in addition to local planning policy,
it's always on Council's websites for supplementary planning guidance, which are not adopted policy,
but they'll give you an indication of precisely what the accounts are looking for. And they often
have them on historic shopfronts, for example, or design guidelines. This is a very important field
for you to research. But they will assess what you're proposing against what the fallback position
is of what has been there and what is lawful. And you may achieve an improvement on that. So
they will take that, they'll plan and negotiate changes to it. And that's where that relationship
and that conversation with the planners comes into it. But if you can demonstrate an improvement,
you're in a strong position. If you can't achieve planning policy, they've idealized you of what
the shopfront, for example, or the facia sign should look like. So Richard, for people that
aren't aware, what are the implications for if you do not get planning permission and you just
carry on with what you wanted to submit? So each planning department will have an enforcement team
and they will do the important investigations. And they're a busy team. There's a lot of people
who do things innocurously, a lot of the time, as naivety, who are carrying out work which they
haven't got planning permission for. So that often relies upon members of the public or councillors
to issue a complaint and an officer will come out on site and investigate that and assess.
Do you need planning permission for what you're doing? And should you submit a planning application?
Sometimes they deduce it's not actually expedient to pursue enforcement action. But they do have it
within their gift to and their powers to issue enforcement notices ultimately, which is essentially
binding notice requiring you to get down to doing potentially return the site back to its former
use or its physical appearance. They can't be too prescriptive in returning some elements sometimes,
but that's a legal debate. But essentially, yes, they can insist that you stop what you're doing
and restore a building, particularly if something is listed, which has a higher degree of importance
and most definitely. But enforcement and powers do exist. It's unlawful. It's not illegal. So the
police won't come down and take you away and you will be prosecuted by the police or the Crown
Prosecution Service. But the council does have the powers to pursue enforcement action. They can
issue a stop notice. That means you must forthwith stop what you're doing and wait until
an important issue and notices issues and then you go through that process. They cannot also issue
a fact finding questionnaires, they're known as planning, contravention notices. They're often
used to establish who is the landowner and who is the developer. Those two people are the people
who usually are pinned on, not the consultants who are involved in this process. So you are not
doing anything significant unless it's a listed building and then everybody is on the gang plank
them. But if you do receive enforcement's investigation, it is a serious affair and it's
something you wish to be avoiding as much as possible. That does occur. You'd always seek to
be as collaborative with the council as possible. Fain ignorance if need be, but always say, well,
we want to do the right thing here. The only thing is on the clients at the end of the day.
They're issuing the instructions. And if something people don't feel comfortable with,
obviously you make a commercial decision on your involvement in that project, don't you?
I have a question. You don't just work with one council, do you?
No, not at all. Anywhere.
You work with lots of different councils. Is it useful to know people in the planning
office because you obviously work in the planning office and then come to the dark side?
Relationship building is key. Lots of the queries that we will have and inquiries from
prospective clients will be, do we have experience in a particular authority? It's not just to know
how they react or what they want or what are the must-haves there or the deal breakers or the
things that they can negotiate on, it's how they operate. Can you pick the phone up to someone?
Have you got that direct line with someone to have those conversations? And it goes back to
relationship building at the end of the day. If you've got experience with people, that really
benefits the level of those conversations you can have. I'm a great believer in meeting people
face to face wherever possible. Meetings via teams have been brilliant and do speed up
process and enable people to have that conversation on some elements. But nothing can beat meeting,
you build up that relationship with them. People may appear a bit standoffish initially,
but if you were involved in a series of workshops, design workshops or
pre-application inquiries with an officer, you have that opportunity to have those conversations
at the side of the meeting, I think, and just develop a rapport so you can gain a sense of
the importance of some elements of what they're discussing. So obviously, where we have history
of doing replan applications in certain areas in London or in different councils, and you have that
background knowledge of how they operate and what their reaction will be. So in the conversation,
when hopefully you have a bit more of a direct track to them, you can sound amount about certain
aspects because a lot of innuendo is given in advice. It can be subtle, there's nuances,
I used to do that when I was a planning officer. I think you were saying the word innuendo in a
different way to all what I understand. I was going to say, I think about that differently.
And we were talking about earlier, weren't we, Richard? I feel like it makes the work and job
easier to complete. The idea of the world is when you're working with people you get on with,
you're on the same page, you've all got the same approach and understanding and appreciation,
respect for each other's roles in that process, in building that team, a bit of a cliche, but
it's all about the delivery, isn't it? A successful outcome at the end of the day,
not to be that ambulance chaser. So you've got the respect of the clients and you're giving them
advice, you're giving them heads up, you're identifying those risks as early on as possible,
letting them know what they're letting themselves in for. A, B and C, these things might cost money,
just letting you know how far are you willing to go down that route, what are the commercial
imperatives that you have, are you listening to everything else that the specialists and consultants
are saying? You want people who've got your back, don't you? And you want to show people
you've got their back as well, not dropping them in it, because we're all in it for the same purpose,
but there's a delivery and aspiration, a great job satisfaction, that's derived from those successful
outcomes and hopefully generates repeat work because in the future date, those other consultants
that you've worked with or the other client you've worked with will make a recommendation
to people who they work with and say, yep, that person knows how to get a successful outcome
within that authority, within that barrier. I think people really respect when you tell them
the truth, when you give them that feedback, work with them, they need. So what advice, Richard,
would you give designers on navigating the complexities of planning permission?
Well, as I said, it's the research established if planning permission is required, if just
the builder consensus requires, that's as nearly stage as possible, because that's going to affect
delivery and program, isn't it? And even if you think planning permission isn't required,
I mentioned before, do your planning history search on that website, take a look at the planning
decision notices, there may be a planning application that is required and you think this is
going to go straightforward, this should be fine. They may have had planning permission
refused three years ago or recently on the site, there may be something in that triggers the alarm
bells. A lot of the time on the council's website, there'll be the office's report,
that is their explanation of the proposals, setting out the planning policy, what the context is,
what the material considerations are, what the consultation responses are. There may be
an application which you would think is pretty straightforward, may have generated
great deal of local objections, it might be particularly contentious, you might be revisiting
something again, that the local residents may well have felt that they've punctured, they've felt
that the PIXFROX have been out, they've served their purpose and they've been put away again.
Don't darken our door with that idea again. And revisiting again, to send down information
in the office's report if it's published. And some application may have been to committee as well,
so there's a whole host of information and background research that you can do there.
Speak to the planners if it's possible, there's duty planners, they should be accessible,
they may not be very experienced, the duty planners, but you would hope that you can have a
conversation with them just to send something out. Now they may direct you to submitting a
pre-application inquiry, which will cost money, lead to delay, but it is a valid process,
depends on the woman's instruction and the client, they want to do things properly and have
got a bit of time, you can get bogged down in bureaucracy and delays, but you can go down
that route as well of putting a pre-application inquiry. You all get out of those inquiries
as questions with the council, what you put into it, what information you're supplying,
and what are the questions you're putting to them. So what's a pre-application?
So before you submit a planning application, you can put something in writing to the council
to give you an informal response. Like I'm looking at doing this kind of thing. Precisely.
Do I need planning permission a lot of the time? They'll tell you. No, you don't need
planning permission for that. It won't be a legally binding response, it's the informal,
all the caveats will be on there, the disclaimers, informal opinion of an officer,
because until you see a decision notice in black and white, nothing is guaranteed in
town planning, and even after the decision is given, people have a six weeks window to challenge
the process. What's it mean, leave money to challenge it? But it has to be on process,
the protocols and procedures, and the law hasn't been invited by the delivery of that decision
and that assessment. But you can submit a pre-application inquiry, there's a fee with it,
you can include drawings, you can provide some reports as well to support the proposal.
The local authority then may come back to you and say, oh, there's a lot here. We want to
enter into an agreement, then there's a planning performance agreement. Avoid those if you can,
because they cost more money and need to more delays. It's a revenue earning process, local
authority. But they do serve an important process, providing them to speak with the planners informally.
They can give you a list of what you required to submit a planning application as well,
what the policies should be, which is very useful, although you should always do your own
research as well. They can give you a background, they might tell you, people have been implying
for this for the last 10 years, you've got no chance whatsoever. The neighbours find this
type of development very particularly contentious. They can give you an inside track on that
knowledge basis as well. So we do serve a purpose, but they're not legally binding.
And they'll always say the planning application process is the formal question and answer process
and a decision notice is the formal response of the planning authority. What would you say are
some challenges that designers face when the authorities? It's been able to speak to them,
to understand what they're doing and their communication. Local authorities are under
resource, it's well publicised, has been the case for many years. The industry wants planning
departments to be resourced so they can access them and provide well-rounded quality responses
in good time, delay and uncertainty, lead to different costs, which is just the worst thing
for a client, isn't it? So the challenges are understanding their circumstances. There are
good and bad planning officers in good and bad local authorities. But if you have that line
of communication wisdom, don't pick your battles, pick your opportunities, ask the questions for
you, demand us to respond because they're very busy with lots of things. But it's having that
accessibility to the officers, I think is a key component in going on the journey to achieve
the successful outcome. Can I ask a question about listed? So you've got grade one, grade two,
grade two star? Grade two star, yes. Is that it? Those are the statutory designations. What do they
mean exactly? They're the ranking of importance and grade one would be the highest importance.
You have agent monuments as well, which are a whole further designation, but in reverse order,
grade two star, grade two and grade one. The substance is made by the Secretary of State
in collaboration with Historic England and the Secretary of State will decide ultimately if a
building is listed and what grade it should be. So listed buildings are listed if they are deemed
to have any architectural or historic value. She would need planning permission for works
as defined by the Town and Country Planning Act, section 55. Buildings are listed under planning
legislation, but that's under a separate fact. So you may need listed building consent to carry out
any works of the fabric of that building. That also applies internally. So it is distinct from
development and planning applications. So you may need to apply for listed building consent
on works where you don't need planning permission, removing staircases, fireplaces,
all creating openings, knocking about the fabric of a listed building internally.
What you recall from section 55, carrying out those works, it's not development in its own
right. It's not the required planning permission, but it may require listed building consent.
Most likely it will require listed building consent. So the two distinct things which will
go hand in hand are very important considerations to be aware of as early as possible.
And that's where Historic England get involved, isn't it?
The local authority will normally deal with listed building consent applications themselves,
and they will consult with Historic England, and Historic England will often say they're not interested.
It has to be of significant importance. It depends on the degree of importance of the building
and the extent of assessments and what the intervention may be. They are more concerned
over perhaps the high-grade listing. Building is Grade 1, high degree of importance they'll get
involved in. I've been involved in conversion of a Grade 1 listed hospital in the past for
residential, and Historic England were part of the consultation process on that pre-academy
stage. Clients will want to involve them if it's something as important as liaison with them.
I did a project a few years ago in Wittom. It's called Aka restaurant, and it's a really nice,
really really nice Asian fusion restaurant. Quite popular as well, isn't it?
It's really popular. And that was a listed building. So we got an architect involved to
help us with the planning on that. And it was really interesting because it was the fireplaces.
There was about four fireplaces in this place, and they were beautiful old fireplaces, but one of
them was right in the way. So we wanted to cover it up and put a bar in front of it. And they let
us do it, but we had to keep the fireplaces integrity and cover it. And that was really
interesting because we had a Historic England consultant or who? Officer? Officer. Come. And
there was a lot of research done for the building, so the fabric of the building and the history of
the building. It's really interesting when you dive into some. Absolutely. On a scheme for the
conversion of a former hotel, it's a vacant hotel, but it's grade two listed. It's been vacant for a
while, and the client wants to convert it to residential apartments. So it's going to require
a bit of knocking up the layouts and the original room sizes are seen as important to the historic
value of the property as well. And it has its historic architectural features that need to be
protected as much as possible. But due to the nature of the fire regulations,
means of access and staircases need to be installed and need to be compartmentalized.
You can't have open staircases. So the location of those staircases
ought to be within the middle of the room because the implications for the original joists,
the conversations being had about moving away from in front of the fireplace to better reveal
that feature, part and components of the context of that fabric of that listed building, the
enjoyment of that listed building, and moving that staircase, which will still need to be
compartmentalized unless a secondary access means escape can be provided. But move that away,
and the officers are mindful potentially to accepting that the historic joists fabric of the
building, they may need to be cut away. But if that means that the scheme can be delivered to help
preserve and secure the occupancy of this listed building, yet risk they're willing to make that
balance. Okay, that design intervention will be more acceptable than putting a staircase in the
middle of the room, which willing to fare with the appreciation of the historic fireplace. So
that's an example of those negotiations and the importance within the fabric of a listed building.
It's really interesting, isn't it? Because you do one of the things, well, I love history. So
always sort of loved it at school. And when you learn about the history of the building,
it is so nice. It's so it actually helps for me helps the interior design process as well.
Because if I understand the history of the building, it then enables me to design around it
as well and like design with a mind. Absolutely. And that is something the narrative around why
you've come along by that certain design is something which is part of the story, the sales
pitch, if you like, within a planning application. Do you have justifications for schemes and the
planning balance and what's important and what you're going to deliver, what the public benefits
are? Part of that is selling the story, the narrative to the planners, to the conservation
officers. And they really do enjoy and appreciate that narrative about the historical context.
Because buildings have evolved. Listen, buildings may have been listed and then been added onto
at certain points in time by building elements online, which would be listed. And they can be
given quite significant contrast. The use of the word pastiche is something which is used often
as justification to avoid some designs that seek to mimic without going the full extent
of the original buildings. And contrasting a design to the historic building can be
successful, but it has to be architecturally acceptable and comply with certain principles.
And it's a key point in time of what we did in the 21st century. And it has to be providing
its good quality design. It can be acceptable and justified. But it's that history, that story,
telling. So that's important components as well. So I can understand all you say there,
what that means and how you bring forward designs as well.
It's so important that the architecture of the building and the interior design of the building
needs to be joined, in my opinion. I mean, not everyone agrees with that. But I think that
the way you design is really, really important. It does have implications to the building and you
need to make sure the design is cohesive with that. It just makes it feel more authentic.
Yeah, it makes you feel like you're in the right place. Yeah, absolutely. It all talks to it.
Yeah, it feels like a character. It's genuine. Yeah, it's having the actual
historic characteristics of the building come alive. And that is what makes the building itself.
It's really exciting when those are incorporated in the scheme. In buildings that are repurposed,
and their use may have evolved over time. This is often the case. Residential conversions being
a great example. But in those historic buildings, we're taking those features
of what may have been an industrial use previously. But buildings are repurposed. It's really
exciting the way that designers do that, I find. It's really exciting coming with innovative designs
that respect the history of the context. But then it looks to the future as well.
Have you got any strategies for managing clients? We always like tips on managing clients.
So, for example, if they've got a listed building and you know that it's going to be a delay
more than they expected, and potentially more cost, how would you manage that?
You've got any tips? Try and be as honest with them as early as possible and forewarn them in advance.
These are the issues that can potentially arise and the implications on cost and delivery,
involving people. So, it goes back to that research, that list in the first place and yet
informing them. We've all had clients who can be hands-on and good and bad ways. But I don't mind
that. As long as you can talk them through it and they're involved in the process,
it's the clients that perhaps were hands-on are the ones which I find most difficult because
you're trying to bring them in the tense a lot of the time to think about it. They may be brilliant
to certain aspects commercially. Planning won't be the thing that ticks their box. It's just a
delay in process but it's involving them in that thought process so that they are involved
getting their decisions because there's only so many decisions that you can make. You can have
instructions from people on how to proceed. It's making them listen to the other consultants as
well. No one wants to have unnecessary consultants in the process. People submit planning applications
a lot of the time who aren't planning consultants because of the costs that we bring. It's a fact,
it's a reality. Sometimes we aren't required. People can go ahead and do things and it's been
an unnecessary cost if they've involved us and other consultants as well. You're always
mindful of the commercial implications and clients don't want to hear you continue saying,
well, you need to spend this amount of money on that consultant. They may need another report for
the council. But making them aware that they're going into an uncontrollable process, going
into planning, it's the decision maker, the council, who lead that process as frustrating as it is.
And not all councils are the same. Proheres are councillors as well. Some councillors aren't too
bothered about having to provide certain reports and certain areas. But it's just making them aware
of the implications, really, about the cost and delay. Getting things sorted as soon as possible
will speed up the process later down the line.
Are there any common misconceptions about planning within the interior design industry?
Well, I can only presume that there are. Talking as an ex-authority officer and dealing with
responses of people as soon as you tell them that you're a town planner, obviously,
people think that they're overly bureaucratic. They are slow, don't appreciate commercial
sensitivities and even corrupt to a certain degree. I would always say that local authority
officers are not corrupt. You may perceive that they may be inept. I don't want to really use
that word because lots of my... What does inept mean? You're teaching me some fine words today.
What does inept mean? Well, not... Be going right in my dictionary.
Not necessarily on the brief entirely. I don't want to really use that because I have lots of
good friends who are still local authority officers. I was a local authority officer for 12 years and
I used to defend to the health local authorities and I will do. Yeah, good and bad local authorities,
as I mentioned. The perceptions are you're going to a black hole. If you can do your research,
you'll have to take that relationship and get some form of relationship with those officers,
then you can hopefully show the officers that you have got good intentions, not to over egg
certain elements. Don't waste their time. Don't bombard them with emails. Don't tell them their job.
Don't tell them what to do. You will go to the bottom of the pile very easily. They'll be a big
pile of things that they need to do. It sounds like you've got some experience within that.
A little bit of experience. When you were a local authority, when you had a phone on your desk and
the phone went before mobile phones, the authority who was calling and yours, I enjoyed answering that
phone. You didn't know who it was going to be. It could count so that he was really going to put
you on the spot about a certain application and you had to have your wits about you provided a
straight responses. Could be a neighbouring consultee or could be a resident. It could be very
challenging. It's funny, the smaller the scale of application, such as an extension to someone's
house, more personal they are. Those can be the most emotional and emotionally challenging for
people as well. It's appreciating people's circumstances. I had a lot of tears on the phone
coming down for me, which is, I don't want to say just the job, but it's a firing application.
I've got to be divorced, separate myself from the emotions when you're a local authority officer as
well. They won't be emotional about it. They've got a lot to deal with. The challenges are the
next email these days and getting council officers to respond to your emails as well can be very
difficult because you don't have the contact numbers anymore. You don't have the phone on the
desk, you're working from home, you don't have council mobile phone numbers. Contact details
aren't available anymore on their email addresses back in the day. I've noticed that
quite a lot and not just with planning, with so many people, I go to call them and I'm like,
they don't have their phone number on the email. I feel like everybody should be made to put their
phone number on there. That's the thing we do. We get so many calls. It can be a real challenge
to engage with them effectively. I've heard a lot about biodiversity net gain, is it?
Yes, that's right. What does that mean? There's new environmental legislation that came into
force earlier on this year and it's a basic requirement that all development sites or planning
applications have got to assess what the existing biodiversity value of a site is. If there is
biodiversity on the site, you are required to improve on that value by 10%. What does biodiversity
value? Is that like plants? Yes, effectively plants, insects, animals, flora and fauna.
So, an ecologist are best placed to provide the advice on it and they ultimately would need to
conduct a survey of what the existing ecological value, if you wish, the biodiversity value of
that site is. Obviously, the larger the site, the more the site includes existing and escaping,
the more likelihood that it will have a higher degree of biodiversity. If you're in the countryside
and you're looking to carry out works in a planning application, that includes the red
outline of the planning application site, includes countryside or even in the town centre,
they can be what's known as open mosaic sites where derelict sites or ground, they will have a high
biodiversity. They're a thriving home to insects and wildlife. So, it's the aspiration to address
the reduction in biodiversity in the environment, to use development then to increase that biodiversity,
to put something back to the aspiration of a target is a minimum of 10%.
Do you add 10%? So, what happens if you want to build on a field then?
You're going to have to really work hard. Innovative designs, this is where
landscapers and ecologists are becoming a lot in a lot of teams, one and the same.
So, it's part of that design process and we're advising clients that it's going to inform the
design at inception. How are you going to include significant areas of gaping and what is the
design of that soft landscaping? Because certain species will have a higher value than others,
be they in flora and fauna. So, this is where the input of an ecologist is required
at an early stage to provide that advice. It's indicative of unfortunately how planning has become
over the last couple of decades, so much more money is required on consultants to provide more
detailed recommendations and assessments at an early stage, at design stage, but historically,
they would be covered under condition, but they go to the core of the principle these days of
whether the scheme is acceptable or not, not in what it's an add-on that can be covered by a condition
to submit at the future stage. So, just touching on conditions to advise you about, conditions can
lead to delays. You'll get your planning commission, but then there will be conditions attached
that you will need to comply with and a condition application is a formal application which
in theory takes eight weeks to determine, that's the target date, because it will lead in time
to collate the information that's required to submit that application as well. So, where you can
include that information at the planning application stage as much as possible, you can
avoid hopefully then too many conditions being attached. It's inevitable that you'll get conditions
on that require you to submit information that can be the prior to commencement of the scheme,
which is the worst case scenario, prior to the carrying out of that particular element of the
works. That's occupancy, for example, but you will need to secure those conditions before
the scheme ultimately can be signed off. So, those are important aspects that to be aware of,
and that's where you're alive to what the consultation responses are that come in during
a course of a planning application, what the policy requirements are as well.
When you're submitting a planning condition application, you can include as many conditions
on that one application as you wish, but our advice would always be submit them separately,
because if there's one element of those details that you're submitting, they're unacceptable,
the whole application will be refused potentially, and you're back to square one again. So, submit
them individually, treat them as blind and clunker, tick them off. So, there may be, depending
on the complexity of the scheme and how many conditions and details you need to submit,
but you hope to just narrow it down and limit it then, and you can work on those. It's far
more manageable as well. It's not so overwhelming if you've got to try and deal with too many
conditions and you've got too many plates spinning. Whilst you're trying to manage the
project and the client's expectations and all these other issues.
When we were at this construction networking event, there was a couple of people really
moaning about the fact that you need an ecologist now and it's causing a lot more delays. Is
that what you're experiencing?
Absolutely. There's been a massive spike in demand for ecologists. They're in demand,
and so, of course, their costs and fees are going to go up. We're being quoted two, three
months leading time.
Oh, wow.
Absolutely, to provide their reports.
If you're looking at a career and you want to be an ecologist, it's probably a good place
to be at the moment.
At the moment, yes. There's also only particular windows when you can carry out particular
surveys on particular species. Bat roosting surveys, for example, they can only take place
from May to September, I think it is. So, if a local authority says you need to provide a
bat roosting survey with this planning application, we can't determine it now.
It's October. Exactly.
Then you've got to wait till next year.
That's a problem.
So, the forward thinking, forward planning, how you deal with that challenge, how you
negotiate that challenge. Now, as a class example, you try and get that as a condition.
Hopefully, it's not imperative. It doesn't go to the core of the suitability and the
assessments of the suitability of that scheme. These are the things you need to take into
account of. Ecologists, yes, trying to get hold of them and get them to reliably respond
is a challenge because they're in demand. They've got contact with lots of good ecologists,
but they've been very honest in saying there's two, three months' lead in times with these
things, unfortunately. They're overworked at the moment. So, yes, there are those delays.
What the design, go back to the design scheme has got to incorporate
the potential and future proof. Yeah, really, really important.
Is there any advice you would like the people that are listening to
Remembang take from this podcast today?
Yes. Well, there's sustainability and energy, which are very important players as well.
Local authorities will ask for technical information, technical details.
The amount of carbon emissions from development is very much a key material plan of consideration.
Factor those in as well. I know you've had people speaking about that in the past,
and it really does apply to occasions.
Rely upon the resource that you have, involve consultants, get that network of consultants
you can rely upon as well. If you need to involve a scheme designer or an architect, etc.,
there's knowledge, no brains in all honesty. When it comes to fire safety,
secure by design, wheelchair accessibility, those key components as well.
Planning is secondary legislation. Those other matters, and usually primary legislation,
so they come first, but you still need to get your planning permissions in place if needs be.
It's being sensitive and aware of what the requirements are, I think is key.
I think as a designer, I don't think I'm qualified to do planning, even though people have expected
me to, and you don't have to be qualified, but it's such a minefield.
There is so much you need to know.
You think that something's going to be really simple. I've been doing advertising consent
planning, and most of the time it's really easy.
It should be.
Sometimes you get that, and then I got one that was just an nightmare.
When someone on you...
And you just don't know. I think if you would have picked that up, you would have sent it
straight away, but because I've not got the experience that you've got.
It's the experience.
Then that means that the patient's been rejected, and that goes, like you say, that goes on me.
I don't want to be getting rejected by applications.
So I would always now recommend a planning consultant.
That's music's my ears.
It's the pain in the ass, and I'm a designer.
I'm not a planning consultant, so I don't know what.
I do that not very often.
This is a complete cloning of the ass.
A 25-year experience.
There's not going to be ever a perfect process, and there's a big balance, because you've got
the challenges of satisfying all of the people all the time.
There's no possibility.
But it is that balance, because we've got to progress, and we've got to keep on moving
forwards, haven't we?
We've got to provide houses for people.
We've got to support, protect people's immunity at the end of the day, and make a sustainable
environment as much for people, and make it as easy for people to live in as possible
without the world becoming even more difficult.
A sustainable future.
That's a key.
How can our audience get in touch with you, or learn more about Karni Sweeney's work?
Well, I'm going to clear on all the appropriate resources online.
Karni Sweeney's website is accessible.
My contact details are on Karni Sweeney's webpage.
I'm obviously on LinkedIn.
I'm trying to be as active as possible.
If I have downtime on there, it's because I've got lots of work to do.
Which is no bad thing, but it's a valuable resource LinkedIn.
My contact details are on there.
Richard Evans, town planner, Karni Sweeney.
I'll put all of your details in the notes as well, so people can click.
Thank you very much.
We're there to fill out all sorts of queries, hopefully assist people.
If we can identify something which people can deal with themselves,
don't need to burden themselves with our fees or time.
We'll seek to assist people there.
Obviously, everyone's looking to tailor their cloth accordingly, aren't they?
Absolutely.
Yeah, definitely.
Thank you so much, Richard.
You are a wealth of knowledge.
I feel like I am just overstimulated with so much information.
All of my brain is going to explode, but good knowledge.
I've definitely learned a lot of things today, and I'm sure that everyone listening
has learned a lot as well.
I hope so.
It's a never-ending knowledge basis when it comes to town planning.
Every day is a school day.
What I was learning, aren't we, from our experiences and the experiences of others,
the planning doesn't stand still, and that's also perhaps one key takeaway.
It doesn't stand still.
Policy, legislation, case law, it all changes, and it's a moveable feast.
So we've just got to be alive to that and navigate our way through it.
Absolutely.
Thank you very much.
Thank you so much to platform events who have kindly supplied us our lounge to have our podcast in today.
We wanted to just give the watchers group a mention as well because she's given us some
pitching, which are very well on this sofa.
You can only see them if you are watching.
So maybe give us a watch as well.
Yes, but we have been gifted these beautiful cushions.
I would definitely have a look at their website.
They are lovely.
Yeah, very much for joining us, and we'll see you next time.
Bye.