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But yet, I'm so torn here because you're now asking me to choose between my career and

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my responsibilities as a parent.

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It's a tough old game. And there's a lot of societal expectations and trying to free yourself

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from those. Live and let live, try and be kind where you can and deep breaths.

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Deep breaths.

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Yeah.

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Literally, I actually want a medal.

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So if you've got individual toilets that have walls to the floor, you can have neutral and

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a space to wash your hands. You can have gender neutral. But if you're talking cubicles with

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a space underneath, they're saying that you can't have a gender neutral toilet with the

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gaps underneath.

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I see.

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Shared.

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I see. I think if you're an aspiring interior designer or you're thinking that that might

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be something that you want to kind of look to do professionally, my advice would definitely

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be.

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Welcome to the Interior Design Podcast. I'm Hayley Roy. I'm a commercial interior designer

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with a passion for creating beautiful functional spaces. And I'm Cheryl Sutton, an interior

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designer and architectural designer. Hayley and I have worked together on various projects

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over the years and have plenty of insights to share with you guys.

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On many episodes, Cheryl and I team up to bring you engaging and lively discussions.

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Our differing views often lead to interesting debates, giving you two sides of many topics

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we cover. While Cheryl won't be on every episode, when she does join in, it's always insightful.

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Thanks.

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We started this podcast because we feel strongly about interior design and the importance of

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educating designers. A lot of what you will hear from us, you won't learn in a course.

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And as designers, there's so much we need to do to do our jobs well. And we want to

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give you a forum where you can access the information you need wherever you are.

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Whether you're an aspiring designer, someone designing your own home, or a seasoned professional

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working in residential or commercial design, this podcast is here to help you improve and

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thrive. We're not about ego stroking interviews, although I will be stroking some egos today

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with big names. Instead, we focus on practical advice that you can apply directly to your

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work. You'll learn about different products, their applications and sustainability practices.

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Our goal is to equip you with the knowledge you need to excel in your projects. And remember,

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if it's not fun, you're not doing it. So expect a bit of humor and a few expletives along

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the way. Sorry, not sorry.

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Now a quick note on production. We are interior designers and not sound producers. I am handling

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the editing myself, so please be patient with any technical glitches. I am improving my

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production skills as the podcast progresses and I appreciate your understanding.

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However, if there are any editors out there that would like to volunteer their skills

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in return for a quick shout out, please feel free to reach out.

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Thanks for tuning into the interior design podcast. Let's dive in and start this journey

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of learning. Let's go. Let's do this.

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Hayley and I have literally, we've been trying to get this podcast together for a while.

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The idea of how architecture and interior design are so important together. And I don't

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know. It's just something that's always been like an itch that's needed scratching for

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me. And I'm like, oh, Pippa's in today. Amazing. Can't wait to get into it and yeah, kind of

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throw some ideas around.

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Yeah. And I think it's an opportunity as well for me to learn from you guys. So I've got

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a couple of questions for you guys too. So yeah.

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Oh God. No, no, no. No pressure.

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Shall we introduce you? So this is Pippa. Pippa is from NJ Architects in Ipswich. She

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is an architect. I am an architect. Yeah. And would you like to introduce yourself?

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Yeah, of course I can say a bit more. So yeah, I'm an architect. I've been qualified for

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I think 12 years now, which seems bananas. Wow. I know. And I studied on the South coast.

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I've worked in Brighton. I've worked in Guildford. I've worked in London and then I've settled

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in Ipswich in Suffolk, which is where I came from. And I've ended up back there. And I

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think throughout my studies and when I was doing my first placement, I was like, I never

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want to go back there, but I just feel so content. It is the right place to be. So yeah.

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And I now work in my dad's practice. And yeah, it's lovely. It's really, yeah, it's really

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nice.

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Pippa, what's your approach to integrating interior design into architecture?

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Okay. That's a really good question. So we can either get on board with the client directly

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contacting us and then interiors will be something that we talk about, or perhaps an interior

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designer thinks, do you know what? This space actually needs more kind of push and pull

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of the actual kind of structural spaces. So we would then come on board alongside the

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interior designer. The more traditional route is the first route and we would then get an

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interior designer on board perhaps once outline designs achieved. But I find in terms of developing

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a working relationship, I prefer the other way, because actually we can learn so much

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from interior designers. And I think it's quite easy. You know, you guys have mentioned

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ego. I think it's quite easy within the role of architect to think that because we sometimes

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take the role as project manager, that we are therefore in like, have chargership. And

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actually, there is so much that we can learn and so much knowledge that we guys can share

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together about light, wayfinding, the best spot for a certain piece of furniture, sight

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lines through spaces, that actually working together earlier on in the project is really

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cool. Do you not find though that that process is very much more kind of few and far between

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that a lot that it tends to be that a client will instruct and appoint an architect to

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take the project from concept through to delivery and completion, however that may be. And then

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once you've got a building or a structure or the changes have been made in line with

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what the architect has proposed, then the interior designer is pulled in and then a

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separate conversation is being had then. And it's just, I think it's quite frustrating.

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I find it as a designer quite frustrating that process because like you've said, like

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picking up all you just mentioned, Pippa, there's so many areas and opportunities where

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if you were involved through the design process, it's not about dictating to an architect what

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should or shouldn't be done, but it's a collaborative approach, isn't it?

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Definitely. Definitely. Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And, you know, things like wall

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thicknesses, actually it's really good to know what the final finish is going to be

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and floor thicknesses and things like that. Cause a couple of mil here or a hundred mil

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there, it does make a difference to then the finished product that you want to deliver.

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Oh, definitely. So I've got a good example actually, where I worked with a football club

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a few years ago and the architect had put all of the drawings together as a brand new

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building and they'd allowed a certain amount of space for the kitchen, but they hadn't

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actually figured out what kind of food they were going to serve or how they were going

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to serve. And they got me on board after this had all been done. And we ended up having

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to reconfigure quite a lot of the interior walls because we needed a bigger kitchen because

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the client wanted to serve 150 people and they put like a tiny kitchen in and actually

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knowing that's the sort of thing that I would look at as an interior designer. And like

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I would actually go out to a company, a kitchen design company as well and kind of go, right,

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this is the space for the kitchen. And this is what I did in the project. I went, this

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is the space of the kitchen. I don't think this is big enough. Can you have a look at

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this for me? And they looked at it and went, no, you need X, you need a lot more space

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for it. So we made it bigger. But if we were involved at the beginning of the project,

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that would never have happened. And you're not having to redo things. So actually collaboration

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from the beginning is absolutely my preferred way of working. And I think, you know, from

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a commercial point of view, more so probably than domestic, those issues that come up can

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be expensive really to change. You know, you're talking about making structural changes to

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something that doesn't work, that could have been avoided if the channels of communication

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between each part of the design team were open from the beginning.

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Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think an interesting topic is value engineering. And

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unfortunately, it can often be the finishes where people think that's an easy place to

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save money, or size of windows, or number of openings, or systems that are used within

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the building. And that's such a shame, because actually, there's a quote that architects

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is like the invisible art, like you shouldn't really, unless it's like a real wow space,

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the bits that you touch is actually that's the interior design aspect. So it's yeah,

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having you guys on board early on, I think it is just really beneficial, really, really

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beneficial.

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Do you feel like we're ganging up on you? Because we're two interior designers and an

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architect.

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Not actually though, because Cheryl was kind of well, like, you should be sitting in the

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middle of it, because you're in between. Yeah, yeah. What people do and what I do. Yeah,

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kind of, kind of in your training. Yeah, so Cheryl sits beautifully between Hayley and

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I, although she is opposite me. Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Whilst my kind of choice

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of career has brought me to design, more so to design. I think having the education, doing

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my part one was a huge, you know, and I invested like six years of my life into that, doing

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it part time. Having a child in between as well, like an idiot.

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We need so much respect for you. We need to really talk about children. We're going to

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talk about children later.

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But I'm glad that I've got that kind of under my belt, because I think that that is one

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of my strengths as a designer personally for me. You know, and I will really, oh my God,

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I dig my heels in on so many projects where I'm just like, no, you're not doing that.

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It's not happening. It's not happening because I've got my architecture head on and I'm aware

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of like a building and what it stands for and what we should be doing with it. Like

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I have such a strong opinion on it, rightly or wrongly.

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I think that's a real tool in your belt is that you do have empathy for both sides of

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the coin, thanks to your original training. And I think it's so brave that you were like,

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no, part one and now I'm going to go and do something else. Yeah. I've got so much respect

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for you for doing that. I think that's really, really cool. Thanks. Thank you. But you're

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so creative. It's almost like you either need to be building some wacky building and creating

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something crazy as an architect or doing interior design. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows?

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I mean, I think it was only like literally last week or the week before Haley that I

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was applying to be a full time firefighter. I mean, like literally.

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Why didn't you go into architecture? Why did you stop and work in design?

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Oh, God. Don't ask me that. That's a really horrible question. That's a really tough one

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because I don't want to be rude. No, no, far away. I won't take it personally. I'm sure

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it's about the industry. Yeah. 100%. So I found myself in an environment where I was

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working and I'd completed my part one and I was thinking about doing my part two and

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my part three because I would have loved to have completed it. And I was working in this

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environment and I was just like, this is not what architecture should be. The actual product

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of what is being created here was outstanding and beautiful projects to be involved with

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and challenging and really cool. But the whole feel of the industry was just so stifled.

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I was like, oh my God, I feel like... I remember you sending me a picture because

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you worked at Hark, didn't you? Yeah. Please be careful what you're saying.

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I remember you sending me a picture of this dead plant. And you kind of sending me a picture

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of yourself and going... And it had like a random, like three baubles

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on it that had been there for about 20 years. And I was like, you literally, this needs

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to fuck off. I can't do it. I can't do it. So that's what stopped me from continuing

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because I was like, I need something that my personality is... Yeah. So I've really

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grappled with that over the years because I don't fall into the stereotypical fit of

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an architect. I don't have dark-groomed glasses. I don't wear Ponynex. Well, sometimes. I'm

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quite careful, but it's not my uniform. I like brightly coloured dresses. Yeah. I'm

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quite flamboyant and expressive. And throughout my training, I thought, oh my gosh, I just

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don't fit. And there were so many times when I thought about deviating. And I don't know

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whether it was out of like... On the one hand, I could think, oh, I was so brave that I just

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persevered. Or on the other hand, was it just the easier option to keep going, keep going,

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keep going? I don't have the answer on that. I'm not sure. But it took a lot of determination,

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a lot of perseverance. And at the end of it, thinking about myself as an employee, the

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natural personality traits that I have actually really nice to work alongside. And I have

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really good working relationships with clients and other consultants. So where I'm not kind

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of starched and there is an element of me that loves to follow rules. Thank you so much.

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Because I don't know why, but I just love a rule. So that fits. You're in the right

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job. But also I can kind of lean into my personality and think, okay, I am good enough. As I am,

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I don't have to be like super serious, super straight laced. I remember the first time

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I met you and we actually looked at each other and gravitated to each other because you were

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wearing a dress with dinosaurs on it. And I was wearing my red cowboy boots. And we were

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at Daniel Connell partnerships, St. George's breakfast at the toll booth, which is a really

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posh restaurant in Colchester in Dedham. And we were in a room full of men wearing gray

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suits, weren't we? And it was just me and you. We were in these brightly colored outfits.

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We said we wouldn't do this. You work in a lot of heritage property, don't you? Yes. So my

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We were just like, I need to speak to you. Yeah, absolutely. And then we just clicked.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And the rest they say is history. The rest is history. And Pippa is

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firm specializing in conservation, we have a little toe in commercial, we do quite a lot of residential,

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we do a lot of church projects, be that either like a practicing, it's a church that needs

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a toilet and somewhere to make a cup of tea, or it's a complete conversion and we're making

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it into like an art center. So it's more sensitive. We do a lot of work with existing buildings

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and our kind of spectrum of clients is very varied from a couple that want to do an extension

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and then somebody that wants to extend their restaurant or something. So yeah, it's quite varied, which I like.

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That's part of the job that I really like is that it's always really varied. How do you think interior

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design and architecture complement each other in the design process? I think I would find it easier

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as an interior designer to have the finished product and then you apply the interior design. And

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I think what's really interesting is that you guys actually have to do that off drawings.

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And I think that's a real skill. So how do they complement each other? So I suppose architects

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and interior designers have to visualize the space. I've mentioned earlier like windows.

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That's a really good point. Yeah, definitely. That's where they can really kind of link in

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and speak really well together. And also thinking of like the pathway through a space and wayfinding.

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And I know something that you guys do is branding and feeding that, like knitting that through the

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design process. So architects wouldn't necessarily get on board with that, but it's really interesting

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when that is brought to the table by the interior designer and you kind of think, okay, is there like

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an emblem of the building that could be used or I don't know, something that could,

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that speaks of architecture and interior design at the same time. That's really cool when they

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kind of complement each other. What do you think? I don't know if it's an answer to that question,

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but whilst you were just talking about that Pippa, I was thinking about how, I bet this is

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completely off-paced and you were all like, how on earth has your brain got from what I was just

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talking about today? I was listening. I was just sat thinking about how I find it interesting that

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if you go back, I don't know, a hundred years and you look at some of the arts and crafts movements

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in architecture and the fact that you've got architects like Voicy, for example, who would

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design this incredible building. I'm thinking about the house in Frinton. There's a beautiful

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Voicy house in Frinton that I absolutely love. I think it's on Fifth Avenue or something. It's

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stunning. But the concept of architecture then was that architecture was about not just the buildings,

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but everything within it. It's holistic, isn't it? When you do it together. It was always,

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we would have architects that were designing furniture and staircases and joinery. Everything

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was under there raining. It gives me goosebumps thinking about it. I just find it quite sad that

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I'm not doing architects now or designers a disservice now in the way that we are and the

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way that the industry is. But I would think that architects would still have some input into

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the interior design to a point. Otherwise you end up potentially with something that's very

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disjointed. You've mentioned Pippa and I think this is probably one of my biggest questions for

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you because it's a bit of a bug bear for me. Obviously when you're working in practice,

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you've got a lot of buildings that you work on that are heritage buildings and there obviously

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are stipulations on what you can and can't do in terms of not just building, but in terms of

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materials and the requirements to meet the heritage of the building, so to speak.

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Do you think, and it's a bit of a broad question. Sorry, I'm rambling on. I'm trying to work out

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what question actually is. Whether or not you think it's important as an architect,

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if you're working on a building of an era that you should be, from a designer's point of view,

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we should be aware of the building that we're working on to dictate what the design, the

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interior design is. I'm not talking about listed buildings because obviously you're dictated to

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with that to a point. But do you not think that there should be some continuity and some...

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Yeah, it's about being that the interior design should be honest and should reflect the age

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of the building, I think. Yeah. It's a really, really interesting point.

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Did that make any sense? It did. Yeah, no, it totally made sense.

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So around the houses. It's that fine line between

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something heritage, having new adaptations and it being repurposed and then not doing something

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pastiche. So not doing something that's kind of twee, that's trying to match.

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Oh, absolutely. And also speaking of the time. So it's that real fine balance between respecting

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what's there, introducing, getting to current regulations and current standards and surface

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spread of flame and all of that sort of stuff. Fire, hello. That's big at everyone's forefront

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at the moment. Finding that way to sensitively introduce new whilst respecting old.

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Yeah. And I think that's key. But without, as we've said, trying to...

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It's not about replicating, because that's not honest. No, no.

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Because you can't replicate something from 50 years ago in 2024. It just doesn't work,

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does it? Yeah. I think that's probably one of my biggest challenges that I come up against when I

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see people doing things with buildings and I'm like, what are you doing? I can't see. And maybe

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if I spoke to them and they justified it to me, I would get on board with it. But I really struggle

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because it's so easy for anyone to just go in and do what they think is going to look cool without

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second thought about, okay, well, how does that compliment the building and the structure of what

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you've got? Whether that's like a 1950s brutalist building or something completely off this end of

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the scale. Yeah. I don't know. It's a tough one, isn't it? I think.

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I think the collaboration is really, really important between architecture and interior

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designers. Whenever I've worked from the beginning of a project with an architect and had that input,

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it's been such a good project. And we're talking to the architect about the interior design and

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saying, this is what we think we want to do here. And if you're building a new building, what are

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you going to do in this space and what's going to happen? Where are things going to go? It's so

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important. Where are you going to put the door? Almost comes second to that. For me, if we're

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working with a building and it's existing, you work around the existing building. But if the client

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wants X and this is the best way to do it, it's actually, if we collaborate together and we have

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a meeting every now and then, say for example, you were doing the architecture of a brand new

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building. We were doing the interior design. If we actually started doing the interior design

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and started the concept stage while you were doing the bones of the building and then got together,

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actually we could talk about where I've got a concept and I've got this really cool wall

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that we want to put in here. And it works both ways, doesn't it? It really complements each other

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when you do it together. And I think in that instance, it's really good to have a project

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manager so that there's somebody independent that's leading the consultants. So that you're

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feeding back to keep the designers together and ever so slightly detached from the actual project

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running. Because I think sometimes you guys have had experience of being project lead and then

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somebody else will come along and think, oh, well, hang on a minute, I'm project lead. Do you see

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what I mean? So to really keep it going. But something that you always come back to

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is communication and trusting each other's skill sets. And I think just being honest with,

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because we're working with aspirational design that we bring. We're working with clients'

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expectations. We're working with budgets, which is always tricky. And actual physical space,

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like delivering an actual physical thing. So it's interesting, really, really interesting.

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I think you guys get to do a lot of fun stuff. I describe the difference between architecture

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and interior designers. Because like my practice, we can do kitchens and we can do bathrooms and we

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can do bespoke staircases and maybe one-off joinery pieces. So if you were to take the building and

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shake it, then anything that sticks, we can do. But then all the other stuff is really, I think,

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the magic that you guys can bring. And I think that the surfaces that you touch, the door handle

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opening and closing, it's actually much more tactile. And you guys really bring value in that.

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I think that's terrific.

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We've talked about how Hayley and I met. Is it helpful to know how you and I met, Cheryl?

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If I can remember.

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I did some guest tutoring on your course.

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I don't know if I was, was I pregnant then?

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You might have been.

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Wardling around university. I met Pippa when I was studying at uni. So Pippa came in to do

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some lecturing. Yeah, guest tutoring.

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Yeah, guest tutoring. And then off the back of that, it must have been a few years later

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when I'd finished my degree that I then reached out to Pippa and was like,

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don't know if you remember me. Standard. Don't know if you remember me. It's been about three

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years, but I finished uni now. Would you like to give me a job? And we weren't in a position of

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hiring, but I did bring you along to meet some architects, didn't I? So yeah. And you sent me a

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lovely sketchbook that I still have actually. Yeah, to say thank you. Because so many people,

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I was out, fresh out of uni. And I think it's so easy now for people to be quite blase and flippant

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like, oh no, I can't help you. Everyone's so busy. I get that. And it's just nice. I think when

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people actually do stop and take the time to have a chat and try and help as much as they can,

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I was like, oh, I'll just get a little sketchbook. Say thanks. It was lovely. Sent it to you to say

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thanks for helping. Yeah. Yeah. And then I was, weirdly I was using that in lockdown, wasn't I?

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And then I sent you a picture saying, I've just found this. Yeah. And then, and then it was a

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complete coincidence that you connected with Hayley. Yeah. Hayley and I connected separately.

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And yeah. And here we are. And here we are. Yeah. It's mental, isn't it? Yeah. That was when I was,

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I really, so I'm really, really passionate about education design. I think the space is, well,

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a space that you do anything, living, working, learning is, is really, really interesting.

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And for a while I was super passionate about educational design and I did my thesis on it.

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And then I've sort of dipped my toe into teaching and it was, yeah, it was really cool. Really nice

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to kind of share some passion with the next generation of designers and hopefully one day

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I'll do a bit more. Yeah. I think you probably are doing it now. Percell, they were doing a,

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an event at Cultures is Six Forms and it was like a summer thing to do with Jumbo, the water tower,

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looking at the architecture there. And it was just, it was so nice seeing young people like 17, 18,

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applying and constructively looking at a building like Jumbo and coming up with ideas of what they

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would do with it. And I suppose that's what happens as you get to a certain age, you're like,

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oh, that's really lovely seeing that coming through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And learning and,

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and kind of opening up the dialogue to not just be learning top down, but actually bottom up.

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Yeah. You know, and that's where apprenticeship schemes, I think are the way forward. I think

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it's absolutely amazing. They've got an architecture apprenticeship now and, oh, that's good. Yeah.

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It's absolutely terrific because you earn and learn. And I think there's always the chance that

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when you study at uni, it's quite dislocated. The traditional architecture course is three years in

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uni, then a year working two years in uni, a year working, and then your final qualification.

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And fab, there's two years that you're actually working. Wonderful. But then in those five years,

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actually you can learn from live projects and it weaves into the course and then

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companies can then employ the apprentices moving forward because they already know the systems and

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the clients and the procedures that that firm follows. So yeah, I'm all for apprenticeships.

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I think they're absolutely brilliant. There's a new interior design apprenticeship as well now.

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Yeah. It's really good. When I heard about it, I was like, you've been saying that for, yeah,

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because you've been saying that for ages, Hayley. I was going to write one. Yeah. Because I was just

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like, come on. I think a lot of people who go into interior design are not from university.

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And I don't know whether it's because we're all really creative or what, and not probably as

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academic. So it fascinates me because interior design and architecture are really, for me,

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they overlap so much. And a lot of what I do is very architectural in terms of drawings and

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software that we use and things like that. But I think that people who go into architecture are much

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more academic than people who come through interior design. They're much more creative.

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So I think for me, I was always wanting the apprenticeship because it's on the job training.

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And also because interior design is so vast in terms of the industry,

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our practice runs completely differently to the way other practices run. So whenever I had people

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coming in from other practices, they didn't know how to do the job. I've never actually taken anyone

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on who's just come in and known what to do. It's not like where you, I don't know, if you're in the

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hospitality industry and you've got someone who's a waiter or a butler or something, they just come

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in and they just do the job. It doesn't work like that. And I think that's the thing that's

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and for me, I've always had to train everybody. So actually I quite like training someone from the ground up.

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Because there were no standards, no kind of set standards within interior design.

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It's what you're saying.

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Yeah, it's quite frustrating at the same time. The diversity of the interior design industry is huge.

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I mean, some people will do a two-day course and then go, I'm an interior designer. And you can do that,

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but you can't do that as an architect. And it's crazy how lost that is. You can either go to

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university and get a degree and then go into interior design, or you can do short courses.

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I mean, my degree is in business management and I've got experience, which has led me to where I am now.

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But you've did six years at uni. So it's such a, there's so many different paths to get into it.

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I think it's really, really positive to have different paths. And also, because life isn't linear,

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all sorts of things come along and divert a course and you have to make decisions.

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I think it's great that there are now ways to support the next generation coming through.

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So if you are incredibly academic, you've got options to go to uni, but if actually

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learning on the job suits you and your personality and your lifestyle better,

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then that's absolutely brilliant.

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I think that's going to open up the architectural industry.

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I really hope so. I really hope so. Because otherwise it's just people that,

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well, I mean, I suppose I am a classic example, but my dad's an architect and then I followed his

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footsteps because I think the thought of having that huge debt is probably quite off putting,

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the cost of studying. It's a long time. It's really the fees have changed since I qualified.

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So I think that can be quite off putting. So having these alternative approaches, it just,

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it opens up to anybody that is kind of willing and eager to learn, which is terrific.

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There shouldn't be the barriers of finances and time with learning. It should be open to all.

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So can we, should we talk about parenthood?

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So balancing professional life with parenthood. So I think we should all explain our parenthood

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status. Should we? Yeah.

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Okay. Shall I dive in? Okay. Well, so to become an architect takes seven years and for me to become

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a mum took me seven years, which I think is like coincidence. Number seven. Anyway, so I

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established myself in my career first and then I had my best friend, my dad, my dad, my dad,

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my babies. That was just how it was meant to be for me. And I'm really grateful that, like,

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I do not know how people study and have children. I have got so much respect for

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people that do that. Literally. I was very blessed that it was just my own single focus.

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I have my children a little bit later. I was established in my career. So I have a three year

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old and a one year old. So the nights are tough. The days are long and weaving work in has been

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interesting. Yeah.

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He's going next. So I have a nine year old. I started up my business,

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harp design 18 months before I had him. He was a bit of a surprise. He was a

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little bit earlier than I expected in my life. And, but I was an older mom. I

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was 35 when I had him and I actually didn't have any maternity leave. So

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straight back in. Oh, I just, so I'd landed a really big project in the, in

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the start of my business. It was massive for me at the time. I landed this

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250,000 pound budget project for a kids play center in, in, in central London.

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And it was this project that I've been talking for what ages about, and then it

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landed the week before I had Liam. Oh my goodness. And I'd employed somebody, it

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was just me at the time in my business and I'd employed somebody to cover my

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maternity leave for three months. And she just never left. She just came on board

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and she just didn't leave. So because we both needed to be doing the work,

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because we grew so fast. And I remember sitting at my desk, breastfeeding my son

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and typing a lot in the first few months. And it was, it was really tough. Yeah.

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And, and I was supposed to be having maternity leave and I just couldn't do it.

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There was so much work to do. And, and the lady who had employed needed my

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guidance as well. And I was working at home at this point, I had a big office in

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one of the bedrooms at home. So it was quite good that I could dip in and out

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of the office and still go and make food and things like that and be at home.

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That was quite handy, but yeah, it was tough. It was really, really tough.

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And then I was a, I was a lone parent after that for three years. And yeah,

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that was pretty, that was pretty hard going. But yeah, now he's nine. It's

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much, much easier. I've got a good, like you said to me earlier, Pippa, I've got

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a good support network around me. And I think that's what you've got to build,

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isn't it? And yeah. And I've worked, but I've worked pretty much full time since

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he was born. That's incredible. But yeah. How about you, Jo? So as I mentioned,

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when we were talking about how Pippa and I met, I had the, so I went to uni when

396
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,600
I was, well, I was a mature student. I can't remember how old I was. I can't

397
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,560
remember what day of the week it is, let alone what year I went then. And three

398
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:40,280
years into my degree, I got pregnant with Thea. So I was studying whilst being

399
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:47,960
heavily pregnant. And then I think, so I had Thea in the July. That's kind of

400
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,840
handy. No, no, no. Was it in the summer holidays? June. She was born in June,

401
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,000
not July. So I had Thea in the June and then I went back to uni in the

402
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:01,240
September. And yeah. And was doing, and then obviously like Thea was, you know,

403
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:06,680
full blown like toddler when I was doing my dissertation. And I'm not joking. I

404
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,560
look back now and I think, like I can barely function at the moment with being

405
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,600
a parent and working and keeping a house and trying to remember to buy food and

406
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:22,040
you know, all of the stuff that we all have to deal with. And I look back now at

407
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:27,160
those months, like those last year of my degree and think, I don't know how I did

408
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:32,040
it. Like I would put Thea to bed and obviously I had my ex-husband there at

409
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,640
the time that he was there to support me and stuff, which was amazing. But yeah,

410
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,360
my dissertation was done through the night. That's incredible. Like

411
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:43,160
intersected by feeding her every two hours or whatever. And then, yeah, I just

412
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:49,320
don't know how I did it. Balancing work and because I throw myself into, as we

413
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:54,120
all do, throw ourselves into what we do so hard that you constantly are like,

414
00:37:54,120 --> 00:38:00,040
well, there is no balance almost. It's like, I'm even focused on work and poor

415
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:07,640
Thea is like, mom, I'm hungry. Like, just sort yourself out. Or I'm like, I have to

416
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,320
shut work down and I have to focus on being a parent. Like it's so hard.

417
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,880
I find it really difficult to do both. I can't, like in the summer holidays, I had

418
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:21,160
the team's call and he was chucking a bit of Lego across the room. And it's just

419
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,720
like, brutal. I can't do this. I need to, and I've always been like that. I've

420
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:29,560
always been like, I need to have a child. I need support. I can't work and be a

421
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:34,760
mom at the same time. I'll tell you something that I really, and I really

422
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,720
struggle with it now and I've struggled with it since having Thea. And I think

423
00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:44,680
it was more when I finished my degree. And so I came out of my degree with a

424
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,160
really good degree. I was really happy. I'd got a couple of awards. I'd got like

425
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,560
the R.I.B.A. and the East Award. So I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. Yes.

426
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:54,520
You did so well.

427
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,600
Got out. I was like, right. I'm not going to struggle to find a job because

428
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,840
I remember your portfolio. It was really strong. And so I put myself out there.

429
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:09,720
But because I'd got Thea and she was like two or three, maybe, I, and I really,

430
00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:13,800
really had to stick to my guns. I was like, right, I know what I can do. My

431
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:20,600
priority is being a mother that comes above everything else. But yeah, I can't

432
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,760
just sit back and let my career like just go, you know, just, just disappear.

433
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,040
So I put myself out there with architects practices and put myself forward and

434
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:35,400
applied for jobs. And I was like, but the caveat is that I can only work part time

435
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,200
because I've got a small child and it's really important that I'm there for her.

436
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:48,840
That's why that was my choice. And I honestly came across so many issues with that. I had

437
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:56,920
firms, I had one really, really prestigious firm locally, who I was desperate to work for.

438
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,920
Also, because I used to do all of my, all of my architectural drawings were done by hand.

439
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,040
I don't know if you remember.

440
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:02,520
I do. I do.

441
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,280
Like bloody water colored stuff.

442
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,720
Oh, with a two year old child, I'm just going to water color my dissertation.

443
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:10,120
It was more on who to get.

444
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,120
No, inspirational.

445
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:12,760
Inspirational.

446
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,880
So there was a company that I'd applied for and they wanted to offer me a job.

447
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,640
And I was like, really want to work for them, really want to work for them. And

448
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:28,680
they were like, we, we're not like part time is an option. And it was a really tough one

449
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:35,720
because I was like, I really want this job. Oh my God, I want this job so badly. But yet

450
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:40,920
I'm so torn here because you're now asking me to choose between my career and my

451
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,080
responsibilities as a parent. Like that's how I felt.

452
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:45,400
Yeah.

453
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:45,720
No, it is.

454
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,400
And I know it wasn't, they weren't asking me to choose, but that's how it felt. And I was like,

455
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:54,600
I had to, it took so much for me to turn that down and be like, I'm not doing,

456
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,200
I'm not doing full time. I'm not doing it.

457
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:01,400
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've huge respect for you for making that decision because it's really,

458
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:07,720
really hard. So after I had due, I went back to work and I had quite a big promotion and I was

459
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:13,720
put up to associate partner, which was amazing for the age that I was, the point in my career.

460
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:20,360
Granted, there was a little bit of, what's the word is it nepotism because my dad

461
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,160
is one of the partners. Sure. However,

462
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,600
I think you have to earn it more.

463
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,960
Well, that's true. That's true. And there is another partner. Sure.

464
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:28,680
People don't say that.

465
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,480
They do that. Well, no. So, granted there was, you know, I already had a foot on the ladder,

466
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:39,640
but it was amazing. And I said to them, because I had like a review before I went on maternity

467
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,560
leave and I was like, okay, I was trying to put myself forward to be a senior architect because

468
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,720
I was like, I do this, this, this, and this. And I really feel like I could be a senior architect.

469
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:52,280
And then I were actually thinking of associate partner for you. And I was like, oh my gosh,

470
00:41:52,280 --> 00:42:00,360
this is amazing. So off I trotted on maternity leave. And when I went back, I was working with

471
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,560
an HR consultant that really promotes women transitioning into more responsible positions

472
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:12,760
in firms. And our portfolio was very busy and I had one child and I was like smashing it. I'd

473
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:18,760
started this massive campaign with the RIBA, which about parenting and architecture. And yeah,

474
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:28,040
I was like flying and it was doable. And my wonderful son, who I adore, he was absolutely

475
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:34,360
gorgeous. And we, did I say earlier, we had IVF for our, for our babies. And we still had some

476
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:39,320
embryos left and Jude was like a year. So when they're still scrummy and juicy and you think,

477
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,880
and everything had gone so well. She's like, I'll go on then. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Just get another

478
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:55,400
one in. And my goodness has this been a reality check. Like the pregnancy was a real challenge.

479
00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,920
The birth was bumpy postnatal. We also moved house the day after she was born. Would not recommend.

480
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:06,200
No, no, no. Wouldn't recommend. My husband was away so much more with work. I had a toddler,

481
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:11,160
like literally Molly came out, dude turned into two, turned two. And I was like, you are a

482
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:16,360
different child. Turned into two literally. Turned into the devil. Yeah. Overnight. I was like,

483
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:24,280
Oh, what have I done? Little sister. Okay. Yeah. Exactly. I do hitting now mummy. Oh my gosh.

484
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:30,520
And then, so part of my campaigning was all about elevating and supporting new parents within

485
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:35,560
architecture. So not just mothers, but also fathers and you know, shared parental leave and,

486
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:42,040
and all of this business. So I thought, right, uh, going back to work was so easy with Jude.

487
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,920
I'm going to go back at six months, Molly. And I know that that is such a blessing to have had the

488
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:52,680
six months. Like, wow, to have had that time with her, with Jude, with the transition, the new house.

489
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:58,600
Wonderful. However, at six months, I was not ready to go back to work. Um, and it was finances that

490
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:03,800
pushed me and perhaps also a slight arrogance thinking, Oh, I could take nine months, but I'm

491
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,640
just going to do it in six. I can do this. I can do this. And kind of thinking that it would be

492
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:13,080
like when I went back with Jude and I'd be flying and it would be wonderful. And it has been the

493
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:18,040
biggest reality check. I found it so difficult. I've had to be really transparent about my mental

494
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:27,320
health, my capabilities, my time. And I just have the most monumental respect for mothers,

495
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:34,440
um, for working mothers, even full time mothers. Wow. Um, and it's like,

496
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,360
you mentioned earlier, Cheryl, that people say, Oh, it's so difficult and you don't know until

497
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:45,320
you do it. And you really don't know until you do it. And I was so, like, we were talking about this

498
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:51,960
earlier, weren't we? I was so bad before I had a child. I actually remember Hannah, who works with

499
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:58,280
me now, she worked for me a few years ago before I had Liam and she, she was a single mom at the time.

500
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:05,480
And, um, I remember having a conversation with her after I had Liam and went, Oh my God, how did you

501
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:13,080
do that? Like I have so much respect for you knowing what I know now. But at the time I remember not

502
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:18,680
respecting that kind of I've got to go because my child is, yeah, I've had a phone call. I have to

503
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:24,440
drop everything right now. Yeah. And I think also with friendships, um, I would roll my eyes if

504
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,760
friends with children couldn't do things. And now I'm like, Oh my gosh, I get it. And it's,

505
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:33,080
it's really tough because so much, I'm still kind of in the real thick of it because my kids are

506
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:38,520
still very young. Um, and I've never really been somebody like I've loved bright colors. I'd love

507
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:44,120
wearing dresses, but I've never really been like a super girly girl and all of that lovely, nice

508
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:49,560
bits, like doing your makeup and all of that. Like, I just don't have time. Everything for me now is

509
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:54,040
second. And I cannot believe that I've had to shelve. So I said after Jude, I went back and as,

510
00:45:54,040 --> 00:46:01,640
as a, um, associate partner, well, partnership was, is, was on the cards, but I've had to actually

511
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,240
say, do you know what I've had to hold my hands up and say, and I cannot believe I've had to say this,

512
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:10,440
I can't do it. Yeah. I can't be a part. Yeah.

513
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:16,200
Oh man. Because my baby's needed me. Yeah. 100%.

514
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:24,120
And that's okay. Yeah. I think it's the expectation. It's, it's like we have,

515
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:34,520
I don't know if it's our, how we see other people's expectation on us. Yeah. That's the issue

516
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:40,040
because you're so good at your boundaries with this. You're brilliant at this. Oh my God.

517
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:45,880
I, I completely disagree. I completely disagree with that. But you've always been really stubborn

518
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:51,320
about your childcare and like, I am not like, oh, when it comes to fear, when it comes to fear,

519
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:59,240
I, but it gives me a lot of, um, it causes a lot of anxiety for me. So the job that I've just recently

520
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:07,400
stepped away from that big, um, hotel job that I am still involved in, but I've stepped back

521
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,080
from that because I don't think that I'm needed in it because I've done what I said I was going to

522
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:19,640
do and I can now move on. Um, you know, there was, I was very, very clear from the beginning,

523
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:25,800
this is what you will get from me and you will get this from me because I have a responsibility

524
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:32,920
to my daughter to be available to her whenever she needs me. Yeah. Day, night, whether she's with me,

525
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,880
whether she's with my ex, whether she's with her dad, whatever I need to be available for her.

526
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:47,000
Um, and I'll do whatever I can. Yeah. But yeah, I always felt like when I'm doing the job that

527
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:52,840
I'm doing, I'm not giving enough. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not giving enough. Hugely. I'm not doing enough.

528
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,960
I feel like that. Like I'm just not, it's awful to say this, but I don't feel like I'm good at

529
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,280
anything that I'm doing. I just feel so split. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember feeling like

530
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,200
that and it's battling with that and thinking, did I say earlier that I'm good enough? Like

531
00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:12,520
I am good enough. And I'm when you, Oh my God. When you, if you want to start talking about

532
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:21,080
mental health paper, Oh my God. Like I hear you because it is a, it is a spiral that mentality

533
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:27,320
of not feeling good enough or not feeling that you're good at any part of it. Any part of life,

534
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:34,920
parenting, work life, relationship, home, home, like, you know, I, I don't go food shopping from

535
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:40,840
like one month to the next. And I'm just like, how on earth am I still alive and thea still alive?

536
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:48,360
How is she like where, and I beat myself up about this stuff, but I'm like, well, hang on a minute.

537
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:53,400
I'll work until midnight on a load of drawings that need doing, because that's what I have to

538
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:58,520
prioritize because it's fine. You know, I'm, I'm having to do it on my own and like, you know,

539
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:04,040
it is, yeah, but it's a massive spiral. And as soon as you start getting into that self doubt

540
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:10,280
and that feeling of not feeling like you're good enough and stuff, it's brutal. It is, it is. I

541
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:16,120
was literally stood yesterday writing it really complicated. We've got an interesting project.

542
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:23,000
And actually the brief incredibly complicated and it's taken me and another person and a long time

543
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,240
to get their heads around it. I needed to leave yesterday at one and at five to one, I was just

544
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:30,440
shutting down my computer. Oh, should we look at this again? And I'm like, oh my goodness. And I

545
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:35,720
can't, you can't, okay. I'll say, and then the whole time I was like, you're not good enough.

546
00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:40,680
You just need to, you need to, where are your boundaries? Like, so yeah, it's, it's really,

547
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,760
it's really tough, really, really tough, but I'm still totally finding my way. And I think

548
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:49,960
the only way I'm going to be able to succeed is to just keep talking and being really transparent

549
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:58,520
with my employers and as organized as I can be on the childcare front. And yeah, there we go. Yeah.

550
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,560
Should we have a little break? Okay.

551
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:17,320
Hello. Oh, she's, yeah, we're all on. And we're back in, we're back in the game. Back in play.

552
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:22,040
So we had a break and then we started talking about things that we needed to talk about.

553
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:32,120
So I was saying that I think it's easier in terms of starting a family to already be in a job and

554
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:37,240
then do it rather than having children and then applying for flexible or part-time working.

555
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:43,960
And I think the new government are making changes to make flexible working much easier and to kind

556
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:50,520
of put the weight on the employee. I don't know how that would like, cause now, so you never know

557
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:55,720
what's, what the future is going to bring. And it has been a really, really turbulent time for the

558
00:50:55,720 --> 00:51:00,600
industry in the last couple of years. So my job isn't anything like as secure as it used to be.

559
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,320
And then you think, oh my gosh, so I could potentially be going out with my portfolio

560
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:08,200
and saying, I can only offer you part-time. I'm a mother. So I will be in exactly the same position

561
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:13,400
that you were in and we'll just have to wait and see and see what happens. But hopefully, you know,

562
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:18,680
there were lots of positives that came out of COVID in terms of like work life balance.

563
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:24,440
And then we also really need to think about boundaries, which we were sort of talking about

564
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:30,360
as well earlier. I don't like going back to the whole COVID thing, because obviously we use that

565
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,360
quite a lot, I think now, and whilst obviously everybody learned a lot from that period,

566
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:41,480
I think the issue with boundaries that hasn't helped because it was blended. So yeah, because

567
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:47,880
you were able, you had this kind of real freedom to do what you wanted when you wanted. I think a

568
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:53,960
lot of people, you know, you were available all the time. You know, you weren't coming to work at

569
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:59,800
nine in the morning, leaving the office at five. And so I'm only available to you as my employer

570
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:05,880
between the hours of nine and five. And I think it's just become more and more apparent that

571
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:12,760
people during COVID, I was working with Hayley, but I was still freelance. And I think I'd said

572
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:17,640
to Hayley like, Oh, you know, let me, I can pull back like I'll reduce. Cause I was thinking,

573
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:21,880
shit, like, Oh, I've got no money coming in. And I was going through a divorce. So I was like,

574
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:28,680
I think I gave you a job. We didn't put you on the payroll at some point. Yeah, a bit later. Yeah.

575
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:36,920
So I could sort my mortgage out. I love you so much. Love you so much. But yeah, like,

576
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:41,640
so I would have been, I didn't have any boundaries then because I was like just people pleasing.

577
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:48,040
I just needed to do whatever. I'm like, I'll do whatever I have to do to earn that money so

578
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:54,200
that I can pay my mortgage at the end of the month. So yeah, I don't think that COVID has helped.

579
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,200
Well, certainly didn't help me with kind of setting boundaries, but I think it's helped

580
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:02,840
with flexible working though, because it has made it a lot easier to work from home and working from

581
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:11,880
home makes it easier to be a mom and work. But it's, it's hard. I hate it. Like I had two weeks in

582
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:19,960
the summer where my son was off and I just hate it. I hate trying to work while I'm being a mom

583
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,640
because I want to be a good mom. And you want to be good at your job. And I want to be good at my

584
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:29,240
job. And I'm like trying to do both at the same time is impossible. Like it's actually two things.

585
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:34,360
And then you make the best plans and you take your laptop to your mother-in-law's and you think,

586
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:38,440
yep, she can help with childcare while the nursery shuts. Then one of them's sick and you're like,

587
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:44,520
oh, okay. So you're jigging and you're puking and you're typing and you're, oh my goodness. Yeah.

588
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:56,280
It's tough. Literally. I actually want a medal. I want a medal. I want a medal for lots of things

589
00:53:56,280 --> 00:54:02,760
that I do. And I think all women, like every single one of us, I'm not, I sound really like,

590
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:12,920
it's not just women. We're all, it's men. It's just, it's being a parent. And it's, yeah. Yeah.

591
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:21,640
Yeah. It is, I think we mustn't underestimate the impact that it has on fathers as well and partners

592
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:26,600
and blended families as well. That's all interesting fun and games and step parents. And

593
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:33,960
yeah, it's a tough old game and there's a lot of societal expectations and trying to free yourself

594
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:42,760
from those, I think as a woman, as a designer, as a mother, as a friend, you know, just kind of

595
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:52,120
live and let live, try and be kind where you can. And deep breaths. Yeah. And do you know what,

596
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:58,840
what will be, will be. Yeah. So true. Yeah. I've been reading quite a lot of books at the moment,

597
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:03,560
like the subtle art of not giving a fuck. That's a good one. That's really nice. The courage to be

598
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:12,120
disliked. That's a good one. I love a good self-help. I've just read, I did an audio book when

599
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:18,600
I was on holiday, the wealth that money can't buy. It's brilliant. Really, really good. It's

600
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:23,560
really good for me because I've been, I did spend an awful lot of my life being quite money focused

601
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:29,480
and actually I've actually got more money now than I had then. And I'm not so money focused. It's

602
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:34,920
really funny because I'm like, no, I'm not, I'm not doing that anymore. Yeah. Cause I was very,

603
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:40,920
very driven. Even as being a mom, I would be up in the middle. I mean, you know me, I wake up in

604
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:45,000
the middle of the night and send an email at 4 a.m. And I was going, what the fuck were you doing

605
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:50,120
at 4 a.m.? I was like in bed. I was awake. I couldn't sleep. But see, I found that I had capacity

606
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:55,320
to do that before a mom, before I was a mom. And now I don't have capacity. Maybe it's because my

607
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,520
baby sister was, no, but you were tearing up when your babies were so young. You've only got one.

608
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:07,160
True. But hey, I think, I think one is enough. I can't even add two though, because I was a

609
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:11,400
lone parent as well. Like I, I, there was, there was nobody else paying my mortgage with me.

610
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:18,120
So I was kind of like, well, I haven't really got a choice, but to do this and I had to just muddle

611
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:23,640
through and just get it done. But my mental health has suffered from it. And you know, I'm not,

612
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:30,840
you know, I'm not as, I'm much more together now, but I have, I have been on the brink a lot,

613
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:35,240
you know? And there's been a moments where I've just gone to a meeting and then come out in tears

614
00:56:35,240 --> 00:56:40,360
because I'm, I haven't slept the night before and the client had given me some negative feedback,

615
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:45,480
you know? And it's just like, hang on a minute, I could normally handle this. Yeah. Yeah. No,

616
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,680
it's a- Put your face on while you're in the meeting, but then you come out and you're like,

617
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:53,400
oh my goodness. Yeah. And then a phone call to someone just to let, let rip. I actually,

618
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:57,080
after I finished work yesterday, I went, before I picked up the kids, I went and had a cup of tea

619
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:04,040
with my mom and I had a good cry. And sometimes, yeah, my emotions are always quite on the surface,

620
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:10,920
but yeah, sometimes just a cry is what you need and a sympathetic ear. Yeah. I think also knowing

621
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:17,480
that you're, that we're all in this together. Yeah. Yeah. I come here sometimes and sit with

622
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,720
Hayley and chat with you about like my, you know, about my head and my brain. And I'm like,

623
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:27,320
oh god, it's really tough. I think also, and I know I've spoken about, I've made comments,

624
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:35,160
joked about age and stuff, but I do think I turned 40 this year and I'm like, right. I'm like half,

625
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:43,160
potentially halfway through hopefully. Who knows? I've had 40 years of life and that is challenging.

626
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:47,320
It's all snowballed and snowballed. And then it's like, I kind of hit 40 and gone,

627
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:53,720
not sure I'm all right with all of this. I don't want to get any older. Yeah. It's like,

628
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:59,560
always like a little bit of a, yeah, a bit of an eye opener. And it's like, stuff's got to change.

629
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,960
Things have got to change and I don't know what they are. I'm still trying to work that one out,

630
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:08,680
but just trying to get through the day, I suppose. Yeah. Well, this is, this is what I find so

631
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:14,920
interesting is that the days feel so long, but the months and the years go by so fast. It's bananas.

632
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:22,440
Yeah. I think when you've got a child as well, that I think you've watched them grow and you,

633
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:27,640
and when they're growing, it highlights how fast the time is going as well, doesn't it?

634
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:35,240
Yeah. It's crazy. Yep. I've got a nine year old. He's like a, he's growing. He's going to be bigger

635
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:41,640
than me. Yeah. It's mental, isn't it? Remind me how old's the, yeah. She's nine. She's nine. Oh,

636
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:49,240
they're both nine. Yeah. Nine. Wow. And do you know what? I actually look at her now and I think,

637
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,720
I can't believe it's taken me nine years to get to this point, but I like look at her and I think,

638
00:58:55,400 --> 00:59:01,880
this, this is what it's about. Right? Yeah. Like forget everything else. Forget paying mortgage,

639
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:07,080
paying the bills, looking a particular way, getting to the gym, worrying about this,

640
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:12,440
worrying about that, my career, my this, whatever, all of it. None of it matters. None of it matters.

641
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:16,760
I look at her growing up and the kind of person that she's turning into and I'm like,

642
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:22,040
this is what it's about. This. Yeah. I do know what I quite often think. Oh, I wish I'd had more

643
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:29,880
now. I can't anymore because I'm 44 now, but, and, but yeah, no, I wish I'd had,

644
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:34,280
I'd wish I'd started younger so I could have had more children. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you won't

645
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:38,760
regret it when they're older. No, I'm not saying that you regret it. I think that it's just,

646
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:43,960
when they're so small, when they're little, it's really challenging. It's even more challenging

647
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:49,400
because they need you so much. Because they need you. Yeah. Whereas obviously we're at that point

648
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:54,520
now with ours where, you know, like they've, they've got their own independence to a point,

649
00:59:55,320 --> 01:00:01,880
which is lovely to see. But yeah, apparently this is it. Like this is the nice bit when they're

650
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,720
about nine. Yeah. And then teenagers. And then they turn into smelly teenagers. Not looking forward

651
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:12,520
to it. I've seen some signs already and I'm like, no, thank you. My son keeps doing the Harry

652
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:17,800
Enfield sketch. You know, Oh yes. He's like, puts his shoulders down and like, hands them down. He

653
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:24,680
goes, Oh my God. I know teenagers is just so, they can only see to the end of their nose and that's

654
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:30,200
it. They can't see the bigger picture and they're like, Oh, boring parents. I've got a niece who's

655
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:39,480
16. So, um, yep. Yeah. Good luck. That's what she's saying. Oh, I know I've got a boy and a girl. So

656
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,000
anyway, we shall see. We shall see how that goes.

657
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:58,760
So people would like to talk about toilets and it brings us nicely onto insights into designing

658
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:03,720
spaces that are both functional and family friendly. Yeah. So I wanted to talk about toilets

659
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:09,880
is because what impact is like motherhood had to me as a designer. And I would say I spend a lot

660
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:15,560
of time in toilets and thinking about toilets and where is the nearest toilet? Yeah. Functionality.

661
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:22,920
And I think that that also links into accessibility, which is a really, really important topic. So

662
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:32,120
spaces for all, even if not everybody wants to spend their time with toddlers. Yeah. So yeah,

663
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,600
making, so it's really, really important to have spaces that are accessible. And in terms of

664
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:41,880
toilets, making them big enough to move around for more than one person, having the accessible

665
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:49,000
toilet actually accessible. And yeah, things that are nice, clean. I mean, this is just lends itself

666
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:55,480
so well to that connection between architecture and the physical space and then the interior design

667
01:01:55,480 --> 01:02:02,120
of it. And if something is clean and fresh and easy to use, then it's kind of seamless design that

668
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:08,520
you don't really notice, but when it's not there, it's so evident. Yeah. Yeah, completely. Yeah.

669
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:20,040
I don't, I've just got myself a radar key because my son has got ADHD and we need to use disabled

670
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:26,040
people. Yes. Which is brilliant, but I've found it really, I've got a radar key because I've been in

671
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:31,560
a situation where my son's nine and I need to go into the toilet with him. He can't really go into

672
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:37,000
the women's because he's too old and I don't really want to leave him to go to the men's because he's

673
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:43,880
not really able to be on his own yet. And, you know, having, having a radar system, I don't

674
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:48,440
think is a very good thing to do. I think maybe if you had a radar system and you had another

675
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:52,840
accessible toilet, great. You know, if someone wants to have the radar key thing, but I think

676
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:58,360
it's really bad to close the toilet. I think it's bad. Yeah. No, I hear what you're saying. And that

677
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:06,120
that throws in like gender neutral spaces, which is quite a hot topic. And I think if we could,

678
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:11,800
as a society move towards that, it would be wonderful because then like things like it

679
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:16,040
will be wonderful if men's toilets have got a changing facility. So then it's not just

680
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:21,320
on that. We've spoken about this. We've spoken about this on previous podcasts as well. How is

681
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:29,560
that? It's 2024. I don't get it. I don't get it. I know it shouldn't be that. Oh, did you know this

682
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:34,280
pub's got a changing facility at the top? It should just be a standard. You know, the building

683
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:39,800
control have changed and you have to have a men's and a women's separate facility now in a new

684
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:46,200
build. You can't put gender neutral toilets in a new build. You have to have, well, this is what

685
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:50,840
I've been told. I haven't read this, but my husband was talking about it the other day.

686
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:55,560
So they're going away from gender neutral because I think gender neutral would be better,

687
01:03:55,560 --> 01:04:00,680
but I guess, okay, so they're moving away from that. And if you've got, you're not allowed cubicles.

688
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:06,920
So if you've got individual toilets that have got walls to the floor, you can have neutral and a

689
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:12,760
space to wash your hands. You can have gender neutral, but if you're talking cubicles with

690
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:17,880
the space underneath, they're saying that you can't have a gender neutral toilet with the

691
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:26,360
gaps underneath and shared. I see. Well, there we go. So I think it's bouncing backwards. I think

692
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:32,280
women feel threatened. I think that that's the key thing in it is that women are feeling threatened

693
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:39,880
with the fact that men can use the same space as them in a vulnerable position. I don't know. I

694
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:45,320
don't know why, because I love the gender neutral thing and I've always pushed it on all my clients

695
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:51,560
and a lot of my clients push back, a lot of them. Interesting. It's just like, okay, you've mentioned

696
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:55,400
that you don't want your son to be going into the women's with you. That's going to become more and

697
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:59,960
more of a thing. And I'm now saying in my conversations with my son, oh no, you can't

698
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:03,160
go in that one. Mommy can't go in that one because that's for men. And it's like, oh,

699
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:09,560
for goodness sake, like gender is just still, it's interesting how it weaves its way into regulations

700
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:18,040
and also day to day experiences. Yeah. Is there anything to stop you going into the men's toilet

701
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:25,560
as a woman? It's not all legal. Again, it's just society's expectation. It is. Yeah. Yeah. So

702
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:31,800
actually, if you are with your son and he needs to use the bathroom and the only toilet that is

703
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:37,640
available is a men's toilet, then go for it. I'm going in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fair.

704
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:43,640
I don't know. It's tough, isn't it? Has being a mum affected you in any other way,

705
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:50,120
apart from the toilets subject? In terms of my job, yeah, I've had to really lower my own personal

706
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:55,960
standards and I struggle with that every day. I may have said earlier that I can only be good

707
01:05:55,960 --> 01:06:02,440
enough and as a people pleaser that's a little bit of a perfectionist, that's really, really tough.

708
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:09,880
This is sort of the hours that you work. Yeah, the hours. And yeah, I don't know. And I suppose

709
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:18,600
I would say that I'm now more sensitive to my client's needs. I think I just sort of took it

710
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:24,680
as black and white, whereas now I think I really listen more. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a real

711
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:33,880
asset as a designer is to be able to listen. Yeah. I think I'm more understanding of parents

712
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:38,680
generally in my job. If I'm working with somebody who's got children,

713
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:46,600
I'm much more kind of understanding when a phone call comes in and they go,

714
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:52,280
I've got to go, my son's not well. And they just disappear. Yeah. I'd like go, go. Yes. Yeah. Please

715
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:57,320
go. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I think maybe as an employer as well, you might feel a little bit

716
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:03,880
different. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Cheryl, do you have any insights into designing

717
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:10,120
spaces or how has a mother influenced your approach to design and architecture?

718
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:17,160
I'm very aware of designing. So any design work that I do is so functional that it's almost,

719
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,680
it's for example, at home, if I'm doing something at home, you know, I would never

720
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:26,520
do anything at home that when Thea was younger, I'd be saying to her, oh no, you can't touch that.

721
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:32,440
Oh, you can't touch that. Or like, I want her to be able to touch what she wants. And if the product

722
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:37,640
that I've put in there isn't good enough, then it's the wrong thing to have in there. Do you

723
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:43,160
know what I mean? Yeah, totally. Like I will pick my battles and my battles are not going to be

724
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:48,120
telling her to not touch that or to not put hands on that. Or I kind of want to be precious about

725
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:53,080
the stuff that's in my house or, and I kind of probably take that. It's a very personal thing,

726
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:59,960
but I probably take that approach to a lot of the design work that I do where if I'm working with

727
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:05,960
a, so I was helping my friend Dave with his little cafe. Obviously I knew that he was going to get

728
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:10,200
kids in there going in for coffee and ice, you know, coffee, but for ice cream and the mom's

729
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:15,240
having coffee or dad's having coffee. So the product that's going in there, I'm designing

730
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:21,000
with the idea that there are going to be kids in there and not all of the kids that are going to be

731
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:25,400
nine years old and are going to sit down and be well behaved. Some of them are going to be little

732
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:30,840
shit bags. Well, when you've got like a toddler or a child that's weaning, you end up with more food

733
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:35,080
on the floor than you do. Yeah. They just throw it, don't they? I think I'm probably just more

734
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:40,200
conscious and more aware of that kind of stuff. Obviously I would hone that if I've got a client

735
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:45,640
that wants, has a very expensive taste and they're like very much, no, that's what I want. Okay.

736
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:48,200
That's whatever you want to do.

737
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:04,600
So do we have any advice for aspiring architects and designers? Do you want to do architects first?

738
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:10,120
Yeah. Okay. I would say look at all of the different studying options because there's so

739
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:17,000
much, so many more options available to you, which is terrific. And try and get a bit of

740
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:24,440
work experience where you can. Don't be afraid to pick up the phone and call people and describe

741
01:09:24,440 --> 01:09:31,560
yourself and what you've got to offer. And I think you would be surprised that perhaps like,

742
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:37,160
just keep persevering because people do actually really respond well to a voice at the end of the

743
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:45,080
phone. Look at the options, reach out to people in industry. And if you like problem solving and

744
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:51,800
you enjoy working with people and you've got a passion for design, then architecture could be

745
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:59,640
a really good fit for you. Well said. I think that picking up the phone thing is a really good point

746
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:07,720
because I get so many people email me about a job, but not many people ring me. I can't remember

747
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:13,320
the last time someone rang me. But if I had somebody ring me on our work phone and say,

748
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:18,760
there's an aspiring interior designer on the phone. Oh my God. Hopefully I'm not going to get

749
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:29,000
bombarded with calls now. I'm going to cut that bit out. But if that was happening, I would totally

750
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:35,400
talk to you. If I had time, like that would be different. Well, you also just get way more from

751
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:42,200
a conversation in terms of a personality than you would from any form of email or, you know,

752
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:49,880
yeah, I would completely agree. Just keep reaching out to people. Yeah, definitely. And interior

753
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:56,680
design is there's so many different ways in. And one of the things that I've found is that a lot

754
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:03,480
of people who have career changes are really, really good interior design. I've got a Lily who's

755
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:10,760
working for us at the moment is on her summer holidays. She's at university at Norwich studying

756
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:20,840
interior design. And she worked at ASDA before that. She's 25, 26. And she brings, I mean, I

757
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:26,200
was taking on a student for the summer. I wasn't expecting a huge amount, but she's brought so much

758
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:31,000
to the table. And because she's worked somewhere else, she's worked in retail, dealing with the

759
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:35,720
general public. And she's got that experience behind her. She's confident. She'll pick up the

760
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:41,880
phone. She'll do whatever she needs to do. And she's got such an edge over other students because

761
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:50,120
of that. So I would say to anyone who's going into interior design, like have a part-time job as well.

762
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:56,760
Don't just do that. It's about being the right fit, reaching out to employers on the phone.

763
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:06,600
What else? I would say, maybe from an interior designer's perspective, so from anyone out there,

764
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:10,680
there's maybe a budding designer looking to kind of get into the field. Oh, budding. Budding.

765
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:16,360
There it is. Why have we got such a problem with budding? It's just a horrible word, isn't it?

766
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:20,680
Yeah. Isn't it? If you're a budding designer. If you're a budding designer.

767
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:27,720
Perspective. Yeah. Aspiring. Aspiring. Yeah. I think if you're an aspiring interior designer,

768
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:31,720
or you're thinking that that might be something that you want to kind of look to do professionally,

769
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:39,000
my advice would definitely be, I'm not saying for a second, go and study architecture for a bit,

770
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:45,480
like do one part of the course or whatever. But I think there's so much access and like

771
01:12:45,480 --> 01:12:53,080
information is so accessible now. It's easy to actually read a book on the principles of

772
01:12:53,080 --> 01:13:00,280
architecture because I think having that in addition to just design, to be able to actually

773
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:07,480
see the entire project from an architectural point of view, as well as an interior designer,

774
01:13:07,480 --> 01:13:11,800
interior designer perspective, the two of them together, I think is really important.

775
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:16,840
And I think it's just knowledge, isn't it? You can go networking, can't you?

776
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:20,920
You can speak to architects and designers. There's loads of places that you can go,

777
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:25,560
like events and things like that, and talk to people if you're not sure which way to go,

778
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:28,520
because a lot of people would go, oh, interior design or architecture.

779
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:33,400
Yeah. More creative in interior design, would you say?

780
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:37,240
I don't know. It depends where it would go. It depends what sector.

781
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:43,080
I think it's relative though, isn't it? It's completely relative to the project that you're

782
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:43,560
working on. More academic.

783
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:47,080
Architecture. I would say yes.

784
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:49,000
What's the difference? What is the difference between

785
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:52,840
architecture and interior design? If you were giving advice to aspiring architects and designers,

786
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:58,440
if somebody was going, what should I do, architectural or interior designer?

787
01:13:58,440 --> 01:14:00,360
What's the difference? What would you say to them?

788
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:05,880
I would say, so a lot of the software is similar, client liaison is similar, the way that projects

789
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:13,000
are delivered is similar. I would say perhaps you can also do project management in both

790
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:20,200
regulations. You have to follow with both. Probably, there are a lot of hoops that you

791
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:27,240
have to jump through to qualify as an architect. Then there's a lot of, we have to do continual

792
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:37,400
training and we are so conscious of risk because of the construction design management regulations,

793
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:43,560
because of the building regulations. If you love a regulation and you like a qualification,

794
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:44,920
it's for you. It's for you.

795
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:53,160
I suppose really the day-to-day job is only really a sprinkling of creativity, whereas I think

796
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:59,800
perhaps interior designer has got more scope for more creativity.

797
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,480
I think the deeper you get into interior design, the more regulations come up.

798
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:11,160
That's the thing. There are regulations and standards across both fields. But the thing is,

799
01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:16,520
I don't think you can ever put, whilst architecture and interior design are supposed to go hand in

800
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:23,480
hand, they don't always, they are two very different things. Obviously, they are two

801
01:15:23,480 --> 01:15:31,720
completely different career paths. I think from an architectural point of view, the technicality

802
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:38,280
of the structures that you're dealing with and the knowledge that you have to have isn't

803
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:46,600
saying that interior design is lesser or more than. They're both equally as challenging,

804
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:48,120
but very, very different, aren't they?

805
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:51,800
Yeah. I think as an interior designer, it depends on what kind of designer you want to be.

806
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:57,480
There's some interior designers are just not very architectural and some interior designers,

807
01:15:57,480 --> 01:16:06,200
like when I present an interior design scheme, I will do it in CAD and I'll do it in InDesign

808
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:11,000
and I'll do it full on professionally. Some interior designers don't do that.

809
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:16,280
You come across some people sometimes, don't you, that are a little bit quite flamboyant

810
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:23,800
and very avant-garde. They would be the kind of people that would just scribble something on the

811
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:29,400
back of a napkin and just be like, that's what you should do, darling. That's who I'm talking about.

812
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:36,040
But yet, they're so switched on and they're so good at what they know, but the way that

813
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:44,200
they communicate that information is not... Yes, absolutely. I've learned to be more technical

814
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:49,640
because I work with architects and I work on big projects and so do you. You have to be.

815
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:54,920
I kind of wish that I was a bit more like back of a fag packet.

816
01:16:56,040 --> 01:16:57,560
Yeah, but you're too ambitious.

817
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:01,560
Basically like Picasso or something.

818
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:07,960
I don't know. I've picked up after interior designers who have just put

819
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,360
pictures together and some fabrics and that's what they do.

820
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:17,000
That's fine if you're delivering the project. I could put together pictures and fabrics and just...

821
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,400
I'm doing my sister's... I'm decorating my sister's house at the moment.

822
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:19,880
I do it at home.

823
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:22,840
Like the whole thing and they've given me free reign. They're just like,

824
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:24,920
do what you want. We trust you. I'm like, oh, awesome.

825
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:30,680
And that is literally just a quick mood board of a couple of snapshots of some images.

826
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:32,840
That's the kind of thing that I'm going for. And they're like, yeah,

827
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:37,320
but because I'm delivering it, because I'm doing the decorating for them and putting it together,

828
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:43,080
it's like, that's cool. It's fine. It only becomes an issue when you've got all these ideas that are

829
01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:48,440
up in your head. You know what you want to create and then you just give really nothing and be like,

830
01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:51,720
that's what you need to try and replicate. Like it just doesn't work, does it?

831
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:55,080
If anything, I'm a bit jealous that you guys get to do lovely colorful bits and bobs.

832
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:57,560
Look at catalogs.

833
01:17:57,560 --> 01:17:59,160
Do you think that's what we do? Look at catalogs.

834
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:01,240
You've got a whole library. You've got a whole materials library.

835
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:02,200
I love my library.

836
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:06,360
It is. Yeah, it's incredible. No, I don't think that that's what you do, but isn't it lovely that

837
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:16,200
you can weave. Do you, obviously in your practice, do you ever capture interior design? Do you ever

838
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:21,400
get asked by clients to, if you're doing a, I think it's different if you're doing a project,

839
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:23,800
maybe that's an extension or something.

840
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:29,080
I think it's different if you're doing a project, maybe that's an extension or a renovation and

841
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:34,760
you're restricted by the stipulations of what's currently there. Or if you're doing a complete new

842
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:43,960
build, something really edgy, a bit like a really contemporary project, would you ever get involved

843
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:51,720
in the interior side of things? Lighting? Yes. Bathroom? Yes. Kitchen? Yes. And some joinery

844
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:57,800
elements you spoke about. Some joinery elements, but nothing more than that. No, no, that's not

845
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:03,960
where our expertise lie. There are firms that offer an interior design service and they employ

846
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:09,480
interior designers and I have worked in a firm. That was really cool actually working- In London?

847
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:14,440
Yeah, they did a lot of interior design stuff. Yeah, it was really, really awesome. So

848
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:19,720
they did some stuff in house. They also had other interior designers that they worked

849
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:26,120
collaboratively with. And yeah, that was really nice. Really, really nice to see more of the,

850
01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:31,320
or to be more involved with the final delivery of how actually, but my current practice, it's

851
01:19:33,400 --> 01:19:38,920
kitchens, bathrooms and lighting is really, I mean, you could do a whole podcast on lighting.

852
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:46,680
Yeah, we need to do that. Yeah, because it is just natural light, LED, lamps, strip lights,

853
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:54,040
just, there's so many roof lights. The connection to the outside, inside, moods, different time of

854
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:59,880
day, sun paths. There's just so much. It's wonderful. Light is very, very special.

855
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:04,760
Maybe they can come and help us with that. Oh, okay. If you'll have me back.

856
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:20,600
Yeah. Future trends in architecture and interior design. So what do we think is coming up?

857
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:30,760
Well, AI is still a big thing. And whether you love it or are intimidated by it, it will be

858
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:36,680
really interesting to see how that impacts the construction industry and interior design.

859
01:20:37,240 --> 01:20:43,880
So that's one thing that's kind of on my radar. Another thing is biophilic design, which is a real

860
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:51,640
catchy term. And that's just basically green living plants inside, outside the blend between the two

861
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:59,960
and living walls. That's really exciting. So those two things are on my radar and smart homes as well.

862
01:20:59,960 --> 01:21:07,560
That's another. We touched on, because obviously we did the podcast live from the HRC show. HRC.

863
01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:11,560
And we touched on biophilic design then. And obviously we were saying, you know,

864
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:16,280
biophilic design has been around, like it's been on the radar for a good few years now. And I don't

865
01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:21,800
think it's going anywhere. I think people's awareness around it is just growing and growing

866
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:27,320
and growing, isn't it? So smart homes is something that I'm getting asked for more and more. I'm doing

867
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:32,920
it, hopefully just pitching for a project at the moment. And they've asked me to do two flats

868
01:21:33,480 --> 01:21:37,400
that are going to be rented out in a quite prestigious area. And they're going to try and

869
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:42,680
do one, or they're going to, they want me to do design one with a smart home system with all the

870
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:49,480
tech in it and high end. And they want me to do another one, which is not got the tech in it.

871
01:21:50,440 --> 01:21:54,840
That's more basic, but still, still high end in that market. And they're going to see which one,

872
01:21:54,840 --> 01:22:01,240
wow, that's interesting, which one gets the rent. So yeah, it's quite, that is so cool.

873
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:07,480
Oh, you'll have to report back the findings. Yeah, definitely. And the uptake and yeah,

874
01:22:07,480 --> 01:22:10,920
that's really, really interesting. Cause I know with things like passive house,

875
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:15,240
can you explain what passive house is? Of course I can explain what passive house is. So passive

876
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:23,240
house is where the building system, it's like its own ecosystem. So it kind of breathes and runs

877
01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:28,040
itself for the inhabitant and they don't necessarily have control over it. It's like a system

878
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:37,320
that runs in the background. It's magic. It's not, it's very clever. And the interesting thing is

879
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:42,680
that human element and being able to have control over your environment, because the principles with

880
01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:46,760
passive house is that it's kind of like a sealed box and it brings all the air in. Whereas I think

881
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:52,360
as humans, we love to kind of connect with nature and if you're hot, you throw open a window. So it

882
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:59,240
will be really, really cool to see on that project how the end user really responds to that, the

883
01:22:59,240 --> 01:23:06,600
offering of it being a smart home or a home that they control themselves. Yeah. Yeah.

884
01:23:07,480 --> 01:23:11,800
The smart home will be more expensive to rent. So it's going to be more, it's going to be higher

885
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:17,320
end. So what they're doing is testing the market to see what is, if they can get the return on

886
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:24,680
investment from adding the AI and everything, because it's quite a prestigious area. Or if

887
01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:29,000
they're not going to, you know, how much rent can they get? How much more rent can they get by

888
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:45,240
putting a smart home system in? That's quite cool. We were talking about AI just before the podcast,

889
01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:51,560
weren't we? And I've been, and we need to do an AI podcast and we will, but I've been using InDesign

890
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:58,920
to create images. Can you show me this? Oh my God. I can't. I'm so excited about this. Oh my God. I

891
01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:07,320
can't. Oh, I can't show you. I can't show you. No, I'm just so excited about it because I often

892
01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:13,320
try and find images for my concept boards that I can't find because it's something that I've made

893
01:24:13,320 --> 01:24:18,680
up in my head and I can now generate an image, which is what is in my head. Yeah, that is pretty

894
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:25,800
cool. Yeah, really cool. And I've been using ChatGBT to just help me with briefs and just,

895
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:31,480
just, it's not necessarily writing them for me. It's, it's, I'm writing a brief and then that,

896
01:24:31,480 --> 01:24:36,120
then I kind of need it to be sort of CDM friendly. And then they've got, I could just put it into

897
01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:41,800
ChatGBT and it goes, please can you make my brief CDM friendly? And it just, it doesn't do all of it,

898
01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:48,440
but it does it a lot quicker than I can do it. So it's really, I'm using it a lot at the moment.

899
01:24:48,440 --> 01:24:56,040
Really loving that. So it gives you the framework and then you build on it. Cool. Voice activated,

900
01:24:56,040 --> 01:25:04,760
smart homes. Yeah. Voice activation. Oh yeah, my notes. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if I said anything

901
01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:11,240
else. Oh yes. So adaptive reuse, which I thought that's an interesting term and that really

902
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:19,320
connects into, so using existing spaces basically. And I think it's a very interesting topic of what

903
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:23,800
are we going to do with our high streets? Because obviously people are really shopping online and

904
01:25:23,800 --> 01:25:31,080
it's how to make them still usable and accessible and affordable and yeah, urban design. I think

905
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:36,920
that will be very interesting to see what route that takes in the future. Yeah. Yeah. I completely

906
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:41,080
agree. There's a lot of competitive socializing going on, isn't there? There's like things like

907
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:47,560
axe throwing and gaming and things like that coming up. Yeah. But town centers are still empty,

908
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:53,000
aren't they? I know. It's so sad. I think they should just turn it into residential. Yeah.

909
01:25:53,000 --> 01:26:05,960
Residential, restaurants, bars, cafes. So you've got a hub. Yeah. For people. I disagree. Do you?

910
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:12,040
Tell me. Tell me more. I think that the world is wrong and I think that we need to go backwards

911
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:18,760
a little bit. I think we're way too ahead of ourselves with all of it. I think that I hope

912
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:25,000
that it will go full circle and people will realize that it's not about online shopping.

913
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:30,040
And that was never what it was meant to be about. And all of that is all bullshit actually. What we

914
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:34,200
need is we need to go back to our roots and we need to go back to having small local businesses

915
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:38,520
that we support. And we go in and we communicate with the people that are running them. And we

916
01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:42,120
talk about what it is that we're looking for and what we're after. And they source it for us and

917
01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:46,520
they find it and we connect with them and we interact with them. And we buy something that

918
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:53,480
we love because we've put effort into buying it and they've put effort into selling it.

919
01:26:53,480 --> 01:27:00,120
And do you know what I mean? Rather than this very quick society that we live in where everything is

920
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:05,880
available next day. Everything is available next day. Instant gratification isn't it? Yeah.

921
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:14,520
Which is that's my vision. I'd like to think that I'm not saying that we go back like 50,

922
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:19,720
60 years, but I think personally that we've all just lost sight of. Because we were talking about

923
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:25,240
AI a minute ago and obviously saying how incredible it is that we can use AI to find that image,

924
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:31,720
for example. And it is, it absolutely is. But my brain already is thinking like the conversation

925
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:37,080
that we've just had about expectations, people's expectations on us to do a job, to be a mother,

926
01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:42,280
to do all this and the stresses and the pressure we put ourselves under. And that we never feel

927
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:46,680
like we're doing enough. And then things like AI come along and you're like, well, that's great

928
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:51,880
because that means that I can do my job quicker. Yeah. That's what you're just saying. I can do

929
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:57,160
my job quicker. Well, that's great. But in five years from now or three years from now, when AI

930
01:27:57,160 --> 01:28:01,800
becomes even bigger and even bigger, everyone's expectations now become, well, you should be

931
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:06,920
doing your job even quicker, Hayley, because you're using AI for 20% of it or 40% of it.

932
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:15,400
So then that breeds more self-doubt in our minds of, oh, I'm not enough. I'm not doing it

933
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:21,240
well enough or I'm not quick enough or do you know what I mean? Like it opens up a huge can of worms

934
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:25,880
and then it comes to pricing and you start thinking about costing it. Well, are people going to start

935
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:30,200
saying, well, hang on, if you're using AI to produce this element of it, because it's more

936
01:28:30,200 --> 01:28:36,680
productive and effective and efficient, then the price needs to be half. But we're already,

937
01:28:38,120 --> 01:28:45,000
we're already, people already don't want to pay what they have to pay to get work done because

938
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:50,600
they can't see the value in this stuff. That's how my brain works anyway, with stuff like that.

939
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:56,760
Sorry. Yeah, you said some really, really interesting points and so much that you can take

940
01:28:56,760 --> 01:29:03,000
away and chew over. Probably really, really pessimistic and I don't mean to sound like that

941
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:07,400
and I'm sure that it will probably go the other way and it will be an incredible tool.

942
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:14,200
But my brain is always like, I think we are all so caught up in all this new,

943
01:29:14,200 --> 01:29:22,920
the weight, the speed in which we are advancing is so quick that it doesn't give any of us time

944
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:27,960
to actually stop and think, is it the right thing though? Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

945
01:29:27,960 --> 01:29:33,320
Absolutely. Is it the right thing? Oh, everybody's doing this, so I'm going to do that.

946
01:29:34,840 --> 01:29:39,960
Not, but is it the right thing that we should be doing? Yeah. And will we get so far to the

947
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:44,920
point where actually you can't go back on it? Yeah. Yeah. There's a point of no return,

948
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:48,440
which has probably already happened. The train's left the station, it's rolling,

949
01:29:48,440 --> 01:29:54,360
you can't stop it. But the population is increasing at such a rate that actually

950
01:29:55,240 --> 01:30:01,080
the town centers are going to grow anyway. It's gone back because of online shopping,

951
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:07,480
but that's as far, I feel like we're kind of where we're going to be. If you're online shopping now,

952
01:30:07,480 --> 01:30:12,520
you're going to be online shopping. But if I need to go and buy something for an occasion,

953
01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:16,840
and I need it now, I really want to go and try that dress on, or I really want to go and do

954
01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:22,680
something like that. And the town centers are going to... I don't know. I hope that. You say

955
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:28,120
that though, but we go back to AI, you've only got to look on Instagram and see all of these AI

956
01:30:28,120 --> 01:30:33,320
apps that you can now download where you can upload your picture of your face and it'll show

957
01:30:33,320 --> 01:30:39,720
you what haircut is the best suited to you based on your skin color, eye color, tone, everything.

958
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:43,880
So I appreciate what you're saying about going and wanting to try on a dress, for example,

959
01:30:43,880 --> 01:30:49,560
for a special occasion, but there will come a point where that is taken away from you,

960
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:55,960
because there's something in place to do that for you. And again, rather than thinking,

961
01:30:55,960 --> 01:31:00,280
oh, but I really enjoyed going and trying on those dresses, like four or five different

962
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:07,400
shops or little boutiques or whatever, because it's normal and it's out there and everyone's

963
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:14,280
doing it. It's that kind of herd mentality, isn't it? Yeah. Oh God. I don't mean to sound

964
01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:18,280
really... Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I do. I do. Definitely.

965
01:31:18,280 --> 01:31:23,400
Well, no, I'm just processing because you kind of said you think it will go back.

966
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:28,600
I would like to think it would go back. I don't think it will go back. No, I would like it to go

967
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:32,440
back. I don't think it will go back. No, I would love to think that it would go back a little bit,

968
01:31:32,440 --> 01:31:37,880
just a little bit. Yeah. Just a little bit. I think it will a bit because I think there's

969
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:41,400
a lot of people out there who are suffering from mental health problems at the moment.

970
01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:47,160
And I think a lot of that is down to technology. Yeah, definitely. 100%. Yeah. I mean, Hayley's

971
01:31:47,160 --> 01:31:52,680
always slightly shocked that I don't do social media and I really don't. It's just not good for

972
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:57,640
my mental health. No, no. And that sort of weaves itself into business and it weaves itself into

973
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:03,720
motherhood and that instant gratification. So I was listening to a parenting podcast and

974
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:10,760
they did a reward for their child and the child wanted the reward then. And it's like, actually,

975
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:18,040
I have to go to a shop or I have to go to a bank to take out the money. Yeah, I don't know. It's

976
01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:28,040
interesting. I think it shows that I am aging because I now say, in my day. Yeah, I hear what

977
01:32:28,040 --> 01:32:37,400
you're saying, because I obviously have got such a strong opinion on this. And I worry because I'm

978
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:42,680
going to get left behind. I'm already left behind. Snap. Like fully, and I have no shame in saying

979
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:47,960
that. Fully left behind because I'm not up for all of that. I'm not interested in it. None of that.

980
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:53,320
I'm like, I'm cool. And I know we laughed earlier about my dissertation. I'll do everything by hand

981
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:58,760
and I'll water color it. And what was I thinking? Do you know what? I'm okay with that. Yeah. And

982
01:32:58,760 --> 01:33:03,960
I'm okay with the fact that I would rather, I picked up a notepad the other day and a pen

983
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:09,080
and I started writing a letter. Wow. Yeah. To someone that I used to work for. Someone that

984
01:33:09,080 --> 01:33:15,560
I used to work for. Who has always written me letters. Like every six months. I'll get like

985
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:20,280
nine pages from her. Wow. And it's brilliant. Like you make a book out of them. It's awesome.

986
01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:26,120
She's got a really amazing way with words and I just love reading it because I can hear her in it.

987
01:33:26,120 --> 01:33:30,040
Yeah. And I found them all the other day in my little folder and I started reading them and I

988
01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:34,200
was like, Oh my God, I need to write back. I have never written back to her. I was like, I need to

989
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:39,320
write. I need to write to her. So I started writing a letter and I'm like, why? But isn't it funny?

990
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:44,600
Like how I say that I'm writing a letter and you're like, why would you do that? That's just because

991
01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:50,440
I'm like, Miss Technology and I hate writing. Yeah. Whereas I'm completely the opposite.

992
01:33:50,440 --> 01:33:57,320
Completely the opposite. Oh, see I see the beauty of both. The benefit of the email and also lovely.

993
01:33:57,320 --> 01:34:05,320
I love sending cards. So yeah, I see the beauty of both. But isn't it getting expensive?

994
01:34:08,040 --> 01:34:13,320
Oh God, let's not start on that. Don't worry. Everything's so expensive.

995
01:34:14,200 --> 01:34:19,080
Well, thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been so, so lovely.

996
01:34:19,080 --> 01:34:24,280
Was it easier than you thought? Yeah, no, I was really very nervous about coming and I thought,

997
01:34:24,280 --> 01:34:28,920
oh my gosh, am I going to say the right things? And it's been lovely. So thank you both so,

998
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:33,960
so much. Thank you for coming. I was going to say thank you for having me, but you're not having me.

999
01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:43,160
I literally could just sit and chat all afternoon. Same. Yeah. So good luck editing.

1000
01:34:44,680 --> 01:34:49,240
Especially with me not being able to string a sentence together. I'm so sorry.

1001
01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:55,560
Great. Thank you for coming on. It's been a pleasure. It's been a joy. Will you come back

1002
01:34:55,560 --> 01:34:59,560
and do another one another time? Yes, please. I'd love to. Yeah, I'd absolutely love to. Thank you.

1003
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:22,040
Thank you.

1004
01:35:29,560 --> 01:35:30,040
Thank you.

1005
01:36:59,560 --> 01:36:59,720
Thank you.