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Welcome to the Interior Design Podcast. I'm Hayley Roy. I'm a commercial interior designer

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with a passion for creating beautiful functional spaces. Over the years, I've had the pleasure

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of working on a variety of projects and I've accumulated a lot of knowledge to share. To

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create this podcast for you, on most episodes I've teamed up with my good friend, interior

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designer and architectural designer, Cheryl Sutton. She's not here today, but on other

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episodes when we do team up together, we have very opposing views and it does make for some

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lively discussion, so check out those other episodes. I started this podcast because I

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feel strongly about interior design and the importance of educating designers. A lot of

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what you'll hear from us, you won't learn in a course. As designers, there's so much

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we need to know to do our jobs well and we want to give you a forum where you can access

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the information you need wherever you are. Whether you're an aspiring designer, someone

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designing your own home or a seasoned professional working in residential or commercial design,

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this podcast is here to help you improve and thrive. We're not about ego-stroking interviews

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with big names. Instead, we focus on practical advice that you can apply directly to your

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work. You'll learn about different products, their applications and sustainability practices.

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Our goal is to equip you with the knowledge you need to excel in your projects. Remember,

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if it's not fun, we're not going to do it, so expect a bit of humor, a few swear words

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and a few innuendos. Now, a quick note on production. We are interior designers, not

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sound producers. I am handling the editing myself, so please don't judge. Please be patient

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with me. I'm improving my production skills as the podcast progresses, but if there are

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any sound editors out there who would like to offer their services in the temporary mention,

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please reach out. Thanks for tuning into the Interior Design Podcast. Today, our guest

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is Hannah Temple. I met Hannah recently on a yoga retreat. She inspired the hell out

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of me, and I want you guys to have a little piece of that. She's really, really passionate.

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She's a sustainable guru. I have learned so much from her already, and I hope to learn

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a little bit more about her on the podcast that we're going to do. Hannah is the founder

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of the Teal Collective, and she's also a member of the Green Party. So I really just wanted

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to share with you guys who Hannah is, what she does, and what she's got to say, because

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what she's got to say is really important. I hope you enjoy.

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Hello. Hello. Hi. This is Hannah Temple, the amazing Hannah Temple. And this is Harvey,

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who is exposing himself a little bit more than I'd like. He's joining us for the podcast

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today. I'm very excited about our conversation. Anyone who's listening and not looking needs

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to go onto YouTube and see Harvey. Harvey is making his debut on the Interior Design

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Podcast today. And what a debut. Oh, he's beautiful, isn't he? Today, I'm joined by

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the lovely, amazing, beautiful Hannah Temple, who I recently met on a yoga retreat, the

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most amazing yoga retreat. Hannah is the founder of the Teal Collective. I am indeed. I am

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just... Tell us about the Teal Collective, Hannah.

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Oh, well, I also just, before we start, want to say how lovely it is to be with you, having

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met you in a woodland near Bath not long ago, and just, yeah, a wonderful kind of serendipitous

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meeting. But also how wonderful it is to be here with you and with Harvey, who's lying

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here next to us in a very relaxed position. So as you say, I'm the founder of an organization

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called the Teal Collective. And the Teal Collective is a collective consultancy. We specialize

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in helping organizations to learn from nature and to become really regenerative forces in

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the world. And I can say more later about why Teal, if that's interesting, but maybe

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just as some other context in terms of some other hats that I wear that may or may not

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weave their way into our conversation today. So I recently had the honor and the privilege

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of being the Green Party's parliamentary candidate for the area where I live.

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I'm converted. I'm converted. I am.

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Excellent. Excellent. Well, as much of that as I can do, the better. Yeah. And I would

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love to stand again if I'm selected. And I host a podcast too. So I host a podcast called

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A Thriving Future, which is where people can encounter other organizations who are also

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on the path to regenerative. And the intention of that podcast is so people can hear their

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stories, learn about what they're doing, what's working, what's not. And finally, I'm part

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of and helped initiate an organization, an initiative called the Earth Funding Lab. So

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I know an amazing woman called Florence Miller, who is the director of the Environmental Funders

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Network. And so as the name suggests, it's a network of funders, big philanthropic institutions,

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or individuals, a real mix of people within the philanthropic space who want to see more action

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around the environment. And what she really noticed was that there was a real kind of,

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well, a lot of issues with the efficacy of a lot of the money going into environmental

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protection and that lots of funders were working kind of in silos, not really connecting to one

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another, not working collaboratively, and also not working at a systems level, tending to kind of

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look at little symptoms, rather than actually using their money and their resource to sort of

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try and shift the underlying systemic issues. And so we created a lab, a kind of program and

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a community for funders to come together to learn and unlearn about, well, the guiding star within

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the lab is around how do we create an economy that serves life? How do we create an economy where

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that is the real priority? And so we brought together a group of funders who are curious

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about working towards that question, who want to work together. And so we've, yeah, the program is

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a space to sort of learn about what an economy that serves life might look like, and also how to do

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philanthropy and funding differently so that they can kind of be part of a solution or a move

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towards something different. Yeah. So it's really exciting. And actually, if anyone is curious to

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join, if you're, anyone listening is in a funding position or role or curious about that world, then

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we're starting what we call the base camp training, which is kind of the on-ramp for the lab,

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if anyone is curious. Exciting. So after all that, you now know why Hannah is sitting with me,

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because she's amazing. And she's got so much experience in the whole sustainability,

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regenerative area that I really wanted Hannah to come on onto the Interior Design Podcast to teach

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us a thing or two about how we can be more sustainable and regenerative in what we do

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as interior designers or anyone who's aspiring to be a designer. So thank you so much for coming on.

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Oh, not at all. Such a pleasure. So first of all,

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what advice have you got for interior designers? Oh my goodness. Well, I think probably,

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probably a lot. And I think, and I tend to kind of avoid saying advice or, but I mean, lots of,

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lots of thoughts, I suppose, around kind of the connection between interior design and the idea

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of being more regenerative. But maybe it's helpful just briefly explain what I mean by regenerative

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as a start point. So because the word regenerative is something which has really exploded in use,

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we're seeing it in lots of different sectors. It's really kind of a bit of a buzzword, but there is

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no kind of one uniform definition of what regenerative is or what a regenerative business is. So

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my definition, what I use, what I think is the simplest and clearest definition of it is

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something that is regenerative is something that creates conditions for the greater thriving of

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life. And I think there are three key things about that definition, which are really important to

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notice. One is that we're talking about thriving. We're not just talking about the survival of life.

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We're talking about it's true flourishing, the optimizing of life's potential. So we're not just

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aiming for like a mediocre goal. We really want thriving. This is an ambitious thing.

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Secondly, when we talk about life, that's a really holistic understanding of life. So we're not just

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talking about humans. Obviously we are talking about humans and all humans, but we're not just

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talking about humans. We're talking about all life on this planet, all of the animals, all of the

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plants, all of the bacteria, mycelium viruses, all of the life on this planet. We want to see,

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we're talking about life thriving. And crucially, we're not just talking about life thriving now.

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We're looking at what is the greater thrive? What can we do to support the greater thriving of life

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into the long-term future generations of life on this planet and that holistic balance of

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interconnecting life. And the final thing, the final third thing about the definition is that

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talking about the greater thriving of life. So being regenerative is not a destination. It's not,

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okay, we as an organization or as an initiative, we've done X, Y, and Z, done. We're regenerative.

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Tick. We can pat ourselves on the back and applaud ourselves. No. Being regenerative is kind of,

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it's a more fundamental shift. We're not just kind of replacing maybe what's been there for

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sustainability or various other different kinds of certifications and things that are in place

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with a new sort of set of checklists. Being regenerative is about a different way of being

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in the world. It's like a fundamental shift at not only a head level, but really at a heart level as

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well. And so when we talk about it being the greater thriving of life, it's a recognition

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that this is not a destination. This is a constant way of being, a constant process of evolution.

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Cause in the same way that in nature, nothing is ever still, nothing is still, everything is

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always adapting, evolving, changing. And that is what we mean by regenerative is something that is

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constantly seeking the greater thriving of life. So that's kind of what I mean by regenerative. And

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there's a whole world of what I could say about how that translates to business and organizations,

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but I wonder. I mean, I think that was something you just said there was really hit home because I,

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as a designer, I really struggle to choose the most sustainable products. I want to do that all

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the time and I try and do that all the time, but how do I, like, how do I know? And actually,

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I think by you saying, you know, it's a constant thing. It is about working with people to try and

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get that, you know, that shift, isn't it? It's about working with supply because suppliers aren't

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going to just change from cradle into cradle to cradle with. That's not what they've been doing

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before, for example. So if you are working with the suppliers and you know that you're kind of,

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you're looking for sustainable stuff and you do choose sustainable stuff when you can,

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I feel like I don't feel so bad. Do you know what I mean? I constantly go, I don't know if I'm doing

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this right in terms of sustainability, you know? Yeah. And I think the issue, like I say, is it's

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more of a systemic problem because it should, in the same way as I don't think it's right that

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any individual when they go to the supermarket is like, do I buy the organic apples or the local

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ones or the fair trade ones? You know, you're going, what's the right call? And really what

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I think should happen is that, you know, at a systemic level, we should only be offering products

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in stores that meet minimum criteria and that it shouldn't be down to the individual to have to do

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10 hours of research to decide what carpet to buy. You know, it should be, there should be minimum

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standards legislated. That's not where we are now. And so I know one of the things that we talked

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about a bit when we met and that maybe sparked a little bit of how we ended up here was, you know,

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you were sharing that frustration with me of, you know, I have to make choices about who I buy things

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from. I have to make choices about what suppliers I work with. And I just feel a bit in the dark

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about how to do that in the best way. And yeah, I mean, I suppose from where I sit, so I spent a lot

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of my career working in sustainability and human rights, so a lot of time in supply chains, on

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factories, in farms, in offices around the world. And there's a lot of very unpleasant stuff that

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happens environmentally and socially, but there are also, I think a lot of, it's really important

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to remember that there are human beings at every stage of those supply chains. And I think what I

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ended up talking to you about in terms of the, I think one of the strongest ways to navigate,

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you know, trying to have more sustainable, more ethical supply chains is trying to build trusting,

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open human relationships with your suppliers. Because if you're a supplier, often you're squeezed

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between a rock and a hard place in many different scenarios and contracts. You often have very

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short-term contracts, or you have very long lead times for when you get paid. And you often are,

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you know, someone else's customer. So they'll be buying things from another supplier and another

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supplier and another supplier. And their degree of visibility on ultimately where things come from

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is often really compromised. So when they have their ultimate customer say to us, well, look,

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I'm only going to, you know, I'm only going to give you this size order and I'm not going to pay

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you for another eight months, but can you make sure that you tick all these boxes, please, and

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jump through all these hoops? What that does is that overly incentivizes supplier to go, yeah,

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yeah, sure. I meet all of that. Absolutely. Because that's the answer that they know you're

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looking for. They know that you as the customer just want them to say, yes, I meet all those

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criteria. Please, can we now get on and do the business? And so what that tends to mean is that

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all of the damaging effects in supply chains, most customers never even hear about, never mind can

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be in a position where they can be actually supporting, you know, when we can actually be

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changing the situation. The best thing that we can really be aiming for our relationships with

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suppliers where there is trust, where there's openness, where someone could possibly say to you,

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I know you want, you know, this carbon neutral material, or I know you want this wood that comes

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from these sustainable forests. But the truth of the matter is that I'm buying it from these guys,

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and they tell me these things, but then I've also heard this. And so I need your help customer to

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figure out what we do here. That's the place you want to be where you actually have some idea of

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the scenario, because I'm telling you now, whatever you are buying, there are issues. There is, unless

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you are buying something that is like made by your neighbor from, you know, materials that they are

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growing, there are social and environmental issues associated with whatever the things are, whether

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it's furniture, whether it's paint, there are issues. And so the most crucial thing is that we

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try and encourage a state where there's actually the trust and the openness to talk about those

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issues and to be able to try and navigate ways forward together. I think it's really interesting.

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While you were saying that, I was thinking about supply, some of the suppliers that I've worked

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with, with massive corporations, one of my suppliers actually went bust because of one of

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the big supermarkets didn't pay them for a few months or a lot more than a few months. And,

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you know, it's the big corporations, isn't it? That are doing the worst damage. But yeah,

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it's, yeah, we need some regulation, don't we? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do think regulation is a

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massive thing, you know, and certainly, you know, that's why the kind of Green Party and

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my work in regenerative business and regenerative organizations comes together is because so often

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I see so many organizations who are like, I want to do all these things, but a I don't really,

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means I have to kind of go away and get a degree in whatever the particular thing is to be able

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to feel like I'm making a good decision. And it's putting me at a competitive disadvantage often,

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because I have no guarantee that other organizations are doing it either. And so that's

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why we absolutely need to see and you know, there's a myth out there in particularly in government,

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that businesses don't want regulation. And in my experience, I've having worked with organizations

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for 13 years, they absolutely say, I would like a level playing field. I want to know that my

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competitors have to jump through the same hoops that I do. I want to know that we're all working

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towards the same thing. And most organizations recognize that we want a future where our

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environment isn't destroyed, where we do still have soils that can produce crops, where we do

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have healthy air pollution, so air, healthy air and less pollution, where we don't have people who

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are so impoverished that they do desperate things. That's not good for anyone's business. So they

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really recognize that actually we do need these minimum standards so that they don't feel like

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there's a disincentive from kind of protecting their own future as a business. Yeah. I mean,

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having worked in business for a long time, one of the things that I really try and do is understand

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that everyone has to make a profit. You know, you're not in business to not make a profit. You're

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there to make money and everyone has to make money. So, and when you get a client who understands

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that, everything becomes more fair, you know? And one of the things that in my younger years,

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I had people influencing me where, you know, you got to screw down to the best price and, you know,

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all the supply chain things that the brutal supply chain things that happen a lot. I was taught in

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that world and I didn't like it. I stepped out of it because I was just like, I'm not doing this.

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I'm not going to screw somebody because they'll screw me back. And that's exactly what happened.

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You know, I ended up screwing someone down on price and the quality was affected. Yeah. And

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that, that doesn't help anyone, you know? And so if you work together, and this is what happens

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when I manage a project, if you work together as a team and you wreck and you respect each other,

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then you get a better product out of it. At the end, you get a better service. And that's the same

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thing with the environment, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. You know, and as you say, the kind

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of the cost savings that you get through that kind of approach tend to be very short-sighted or even,

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maybe not even there at all. Because as you say, there've been certainly organizations that I've

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worked with before who've had a similar approach, you know, really, really pushed their sales teams

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to be aggressive at cost cutting and so on. And then there's ended up with a huge scandal of,

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you know, a child's labor has been found in one of their factories. And you're going, well,

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you kind of this, you kind of, yeah, exactly. What other option did they have? Or, you know,

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huge long hours being worked because they've placed a huge order at very limited timeframe.

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You know, it's like, you can, this is not quantum physics. You can see that these are connected. And

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yeah. And so then you then pay the cost of the reputational scandal. You pay the cost of the

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fact that, yeah, children, if you're having children in your factory, I have to tell you,

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as someone who's visited a lot of factories, if there is a factory where that kind of thing

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is happening, that is not the factory that has great quality. That is not the factory that is

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producing you really reliable, high quality products. You are paying that cost in a whole

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load of different ways. So it's really, really short-sighted. And I do want to kind of shout out,

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you know, a number of organizations are doing things differently. And there is a furniture

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manufacturer called VITSO, who I think do a lot of really fantastic things in this space,

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I think are relevant to lots of other areas of kind of interior design. So, and the thing that's

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directly connected to what we're just talking about is that they do not incentivize their sales

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teams by sales. They incentivize them by selling the right amount of product. And it's designed

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for the really long-term. So they say, we're not trying to do newer, we're trying to do better.

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Their sales teams are encouraged to directly undersell, to say, if you're not sure, have less

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and you can always have more, you know, you can always get more of it. You can always add more

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things on if you want, please have less. Make sure that you only take what you really need so that

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we minimize consumerism, we minimize waste. And they also, their products are designed in a kind

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of modular fashion so that you can, if you buy this armchair, you can extend it to become a sofa.

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If you buy this shelving unit, you can mix it around and add other things to it. It's modular,

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it adapts so that when, because another way in which I think this idea of kind of supporting

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more regenerative thinking around interior design is interior design has become a bit more like

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fashion, right? Has become very like fast, lots of different seasons. People are like, oh my goodness,

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we haven't redesigned our bedroom for two years. Oh my God, we've got to redo it. And, you know,

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that can be extremely damaging in terms of waste if we're chucking things out and beginning from

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scratch each time. What if our interior design was really built around, how can we create spaces

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that are really adaptable? That mean that, okay, with just a few tweaks, you can get a completely

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different look. Okay, if we, you know, like in the same way as this manufacturer has done,

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how can I offer you a piece of furniture or whatever, a soft furnishing that has a whole

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load of different uses, has a whole load of different ways in which it can be updated in

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terms of the color or the look without you needing to have a whole new set of resources and materials.

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And this business has demonstrated that that works economically for them because the people,

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the word of mouth that they now have, because the quality of their products is so phenomenal. And

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people just love experiencing their furniture because it's so well designed. Where is this

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company? Vitzo. They're actually now based in the UK, but their background, the main designer,

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who's amazing. He's got these fantastic principles for design. I think he was German. Don't quote me

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on that. I will have to, I can send you a link. Yeah. I think there are so many ways in which

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kind of being regenerative really links into interior design. And yeah, and sales is a massive

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thing, making sure that we're not just saying push it, push it, get as much out as we can.

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One of the core principles of nature that I kind of weave into a lot of my work is optimization.

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Our societies and our businesses and our organizations are often geared towards

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maximization. How can we squeeze as much profit, product, whatever, out of this thing as possible?

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That tends to be extremely short-sighted because that tends to push things to places where they

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become stressed and break. We've seen that again and again and again in financial crises, in what

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we can see in the natural world around us. Whereas nature operates by the principle of optimization.

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How can as many parts of the system be thriving at the same time as possible? How can we have that

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holistic balance? How can people be well? How can they be operating in really lovely spaces? How can

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the people who work in their supply chains be well? How can the overall system be strong,

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resilient and able to carry on for an indefinite future rather than a minute, squeeze as much out

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of it for five minutes and then suffer the consequences afterwards? It's crazy.

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One of the things that you said there about kind of saying, you know, only have what you need.

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I tend to be a bit like that with my clients when I go in, you know, go in with a full interior

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design proposal. And I quite often go, if you don't need all of this, don't have it. Like,

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I don't want you to have anything you don't want, you know? And I think when you,

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when you behave like that, it actually builds trust because I'm busy enough. I don't need

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all of this work. If you've got a massive project for me, great. But if you haven't,

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I'll find one somewhere else, you know? So when, when you have that attitude, people tend to be a

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bit more trusting. Whereas if you're kind of desperate to get the sale kind of thing, people

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tend to be like, Ooh, you know, yeah, what do they want out of me? Whereas if you kind of go, well,

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there's my, there's my proposal. Don't have it if you don't want it. You only have what you need.

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Actually that tends to build a better relationship from the beginning. And that's the same thing,

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isn't it? Well, I think you're demonstrating there that you have their interests at heart. You know,

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you are actually serving them rather than just trying to extract from them. And yeah. And then

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I think that we would always say that, right? If ever you've, if anyone treats us in a way that

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feels extractive, you're like, Oh my goodness. Whereas if someone's clearly there trying to

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support you, inquire about what you really want, then that's, that's the kind of conversation you

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want to continue. Yeah, definitely. So what else are we going to talk about today?

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Well, I would love to talk about the idea of regenerative in interior design and in kind of

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design in spaces, if that's. Absolutely. Yeah. What are your thoughts on? So how do we designers do

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it better in terms of regenerative and sustainable? So I think there are, so I have a framework for

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what it means to be a regenerative organization. I think part of how you do design work better is

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also about how you operate as an organization yourself. And that kind of links to the framework

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that I use for regenerative organizations is in the form of a tree, a tree metaphor.

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So, and what that does is kind of just try and help people see all of the different ways in all

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of the different aspects of organizational activity that relate to the idea of creating

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conditions for the greater thriving of life. So the soil represents the organization's fundamental

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legal structure, fundamental financing, origin story. It's like the fundamental groundings of

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the organization are those structures that fundamentally prioritize the greater thriving

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of life or do they prioritize profit? Those things can make a massive difference to the

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freedom that an organization has to really be able to put the thriving of life first.

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Second thing is your root network, which is all of your relationships. That's what we've been

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talking about with the supplier relationships. What's the quality and the nature of those

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relationships? When you talk about a tree, you want that tree to have lots of roots for those

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roots to be deep, for there to be a reciprocal relationship. There's materials coming from the

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soil. There's also energy coming down from the leaves. You have this balanced reciprocity,

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but those relationships are deep and strong. So that's in your team, but also with your

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suppliers, with your customers, exactly what you were talking about, the trust you're building

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with your customers, that root network is key. Your trunk is everything internal to your

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organization. And I break that down into three sections. The bark, which is probably where we

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can go in a second, is around what's the physical environment like in which the operations are

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happening? What's the nature of your factory? What's the nature of your office, et cetera,

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et cetera. Your SAP word is all of your processes, your policies, your KPIs, your governance

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structures, your internal workings. And the heartwood at the center of your trunk are the

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values, the beliefs, the worldviews that inhabit your organization. Then you have the fruits,

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flowers, and foliage, which is what you put out into the world. So as an interior design business,

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it's your services, but it's also your waste. It's your messaging. It's your reporting. It's

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everything that you're putting out into the world. What's the nature and quality of those things?

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What do they do and add to the world? And the final thing is materials. Materials is what is

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flowing through your organization. Yes, in terms of raw materials, like maybe you buy a whole lot

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of computers and what happens to them afterwards, but it's also things like money. How is money

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flowing through your organization? How is it operating like a nutrient, like a material?

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How do you make sure you have enough, but not so much that it's unhelpful? How is it flowing

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easily from where you make it to where it can be put to good use? So there's one way I would answer

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a question that would be to say by being an example of a regenerative business yourself,

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by incorporating kind of nature's wisdom across those different areas. But I think to speak to

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the bark specifically, the kind of the nature of the environments that you create in your work,

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there's a lot that I kind of look to as sort of examples of more regenerative design.

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One of those things is, okay, are the spaces that you're creating allowing people greater

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connection to the natural world? Are there spaces for natural light, connection to natural materials,

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natural sounds? There is so much data which demonstrates that when people have access to

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the outside or to natural light, so in hospitals, for example, they require less pain medication,

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they recover quicker. When any of us spend time in a forest rather than in an urban environment,

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our blood pressure decreases, our cortisol levels decrease. There are huge kind of well-being

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benefits to being in connection with natural materials. That can be a cork floor, that can be

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plants in the space, that can be just big open spaces, that can be a water feature, you know,

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just natural, those things that actually connect us with the fact that we are nature, that is a

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core thing in terms of well-being. And also making sure that those spaces are really kind of biophilic,

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they encourage, and that means like a love of nature, they support and encourage that creativity,

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that focus. That's another thing that happens when you spend time in with natural environments,

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is you get greater focus, greater memory. All of these things are amazing. And often if you're

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designing spaces where people want to be at work, you're at an office or a home office or whatever

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it is, like there are lots of benefits.

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I think biophilic has been in fashion for a while and it's not going anywhere. And I mean,

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we've just put some plants in our office, which are rubber wood plants, and they give out loads

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of oxygen and they just feel really nice as well. So, you know, if the more, you know, if you

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haven't got great ventilation in your office, having plants, real plants that are going to

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pull in the carbon dioxide and kick out the oxygen is actually going to make you feel much better.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Biophilic, I love biophilic.

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If you know me and my website, you'll know. You'll know that I love a bit of a plant.

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I actually put it in my proposals now, plant plan. And I'm like, people are like, why do I need a

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plan for plants? Cause I'm going to put a lot in there. If you let me.

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Oh yeah. Gorgeous.

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So in terms of, there was a couple of things I was thinking about then as an interior designer,

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I mean, we've heard in a previous podcast, Cradle to Cradle Sustainability, when we were

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talking to Lewis Pullen about how 50% of the waste that goes into landfill comes from construction.

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And I, ever since I heard that, I have been on a bit of a mission to not have,

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not put anything into landfill unnecessarily. So that is why there's an enormous pile of furniture

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over there. Which I've got on Facebook marketplace and I keep going, you know, do you want some desks?

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And I'm trying to repurpose it all and sell it for a five or a tenner or give it away for free

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if I have to. But you know, and try and just move that because it came out of an office where the

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guy was going to put it in the skit. And I was like, no, you can't do that. Deliver it to my

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warehouse. I'll get rid of it somehow. So there's that. The other thing as well is what about waste?

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So as a designer, I have a lot of cardboard waste and things like that. So I recycle cardboard and

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plastic. And then I've got another bin, which is everything else. But in a corporate environment,

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we don't have a food bin like you would at home and stuff like that. So in terms of recycling,

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how do I do that better? Is there any organizations that will recycle more than just because I'm

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I'm worried. I think it's Fiona. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And you're talking

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about specifically like within your office, your like immediate operations. Yeah. Rubbish.

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Where do you know, how do we better recycle as a business? Cause you know, these guys are like,

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oh, that's all we do. We don't recycle and we don't recycle food. Yeah. And most people won't

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have a choice over the kind of local authorities, you know, choice of a contractor for the, for your

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waste disposal and things. So there will always be limitations to that. But I would say two things.

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So firstly, it's about the choices that you make initially, you know, so obviously trying to prevent

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anything because ultimately what we want to get to, and certainly again, if we look at nature,

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there's no such thing as waste. Everything that's produced forms part of a new cycle.

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And I know the idea of kind of circular economics and cradle to cradle like these are, have become

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very, very popular and much more kind of more widespread, but absolutely the idea of waste

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should become redundant. You have resources that change, you know, okay, so there was a desk. Now

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what does it become? What are the different phases of the life cycle? Because there should be no

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waste. There is no waste in nature. Things just form part of different cycles. That's really what

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we want to aim for where we are now is so yes, so doing what we can initially to think about the

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things that we bring into our organizations to sort of think, well, is this something that's

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immediately going to create a load of redundant waste? Is this going to be something that's yeah,

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like there's going to be a load of packaging on it. They're not going to know what to do with,

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or this is designed to only last for two years. And so in two years, I'm going to have to have this

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challenge or whatever. The second thing is yes, there are organizations who are set up to help

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you recycle things that are not traditionally recycled by major waste providers. So TerraCycle

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is terrible name, but TerraCycle is an amazing initiative. They tend to work at a kind of

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community level. So like where I live, we have in various different parts of kind of the town,

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there'll be places where you can take the things that yeah, you can't normally recycle. So things

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like toothpaste tubes or your batteries, although you can do them elsewhere when it comes to things

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like your blister packs for your tablets and things, there are like different points,

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crisp packets, all these different things that typically can't be recycled. You can take them

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there. So I think depending on the nature of the waste, again, waste in inverted commas, but of the

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nature of the materials, the resources that you find yourself kind of not knowing what to do with,

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it would be interesting maybe within your industry to see whether there are specific places,

384
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like if there are things like, because again, furniture must be a massive thing where there

385
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:20,960
will be outlets, avenues for that. And I think more and more people and organizations are

386
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,680
recognizing the need for that, need for that support and more and more people are interested

387
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:33,600
in upcycling, second life, pre-loved. It's become a major thing. And I think as an organization,

388
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,880
the first thing you want to do is prevent that in the first place, try and make sure that you're not

389
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,360
choosing things that are going to not last you for a really, really, really long time. But secondly,

390
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,640
if you do have things that you can't make use of anymore to really, really try and make sure that

391
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,960
they have an opportunity to just form, enter a different phase of their life cycle rather than

392
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:58,320
just being shoved in the ground. Yeah. I think this is the thing is the thing about construction

393
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,960
and interior design is you are kind of ripping it out and starting again a lot of the time.

394
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:13,040
And I always look at everything from a, you know, how can I recycle that? Can I reuse that? And

395
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:18,400
then clients like, no, I've had that for 20 years. You can't reuse that. And I'm like, yes, you can.

396
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,800
It's made of wood. Yeah. And it's fine. I just need to fix it up and it'll be, you know, put a

397
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,800
new upholstery pad on it. And you know, that kind of thing. I think having that attitude with

398
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,760
everything, because I'm a bit of an eco, eco warrior when it comes to that, but it doesn't,

399
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,960
you know, it doesn't, if we, if you were a designer who was making an awful lot of money out of

400
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,160
selling furniture, then you're going to be less likely to behave like that.

401
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:48,880
Well, yes, I know. As I say, like examples like VITSO are proving that no, it really does,

402
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:54,000
you know, that is a short sighted aim. And if you have a board of trustees, if you have a CEO

403
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:59,040
whose fiduciary duty is to make sure that you have, you're protecting, stewarding the interest of

404
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:05,760
that business, acting in that way is not in the business's long-term interests, because look around,

405
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,280
look around at what's happening to our forest, look around at what's happening to our oceans,

406
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:15,520
look around what's happening to our societies. This is a really short-term ambition. And yeah,

407
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,400
the kind of like, okay, yeah, we also have a duty to maximize profits for our shareholders.

408
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,440
Yeah, you do, but that's completely in contradiction often to your motive to steward

409
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:32,000
the interest of the organization for the long-term. And so I would say that is the motivation that you

410
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,200
need to make sure if you want to be a business at all, nevermind a thriving business in 10 years,

411
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:42,800
20 years, 30 years beyond, you need to be shifting this perspective to say, okay, it's not just about

412
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,640
maximizing profit now, it's about thinking about how we can be a legitimate valid business that's

413
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,360
really offering a service that people want and need. And hey, look, if you're doing your job,

414
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,000
you're looking around at these trends. Oh, look at how well-vinted the organization is doing,

415
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,720
that's selling secondhand clothes. Look at how, and there's a vintage for furniture, I believe,

416
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:07,200
venti-rears, is that right? Oh my God, I did not know about this, venti-rears. Venti-rears, that

417
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,840
might be a place to get rid of your desks. Thank you for that. Yeah, you know, like if you are a

418
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,400
sensible business person, you are conscious of what's happening in the pulse in the trends around

419
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:23,040
you. And this is only growing. People are saying, I don't want the things that I'm buying to make me

420
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:28,960
feel terrible, to make me think that I am hurting people in other parts of the world, that I am

421
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,760
contributing a whole lot of pollution. I don't want to buy goods that I'm going to need to throw away

422
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,600
and that's going to leach toxic chemicals into the ground. I don't want that. My children are

423
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,480
looking at me and going, why aren't you doing things better, mommy, daddy? You know, everyone

424
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:47,520
I'm speaking to is feeling that pressure, is recognizing that there is a responsibility for

425
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,440
all of us, no matter what job we do, no matter what sector we work in, to be doing everything

426
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:56,800
we can to try and support the greater thriving of our planet and all the life on it, the people who

427
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:04,960
we know and love and all the people who we have yet to meet. Well said. I love that. I love you so much.

428
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:11,200
Oh, likewise. This is why I brought Hannah on board. She's so passionate about what you know,

429
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,760
you are, you're so passionate about what you do and you just live it. It's great.

430
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:22,720
When Hannah and I met, we met and we were like, oh, hello. Sat next to each other at having dinner,

431
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:28,320
eating our vegan food in our yoga retreat. And we were both like, oh, you know, I've got a podcast.

432
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:34,000
I've got a podcast. Oh my God. But yeah, no, we were chatting all night that night where we were

433
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,760
like, trying to put the world to rights about sustainability. And I was like, oh my God,

434
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:44,640
you're amazing. Oh, well, likewise, that was just such an amazing, amazing retreat full of awesome,

435
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:50,320
awesome people. And yeah, it was just a delight always to kind of meet people that you can just

436
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:56,160
geek out with. We did yoga last night. Hannah was like, I'm coming up to Essex. Can we do yoga or

437
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:02,960
do a podcast? I'm like, yes, definitely. So what else have we got to talk about? So you are one of

438
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,840
the initiators of the Earth Funding Lab. Can you tell us a bit more about that?

439
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:14,800
Yeah. Yeah. So the Earth Funding Lab comes from an amazing person I know called Florence Miller,

440
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,280
is currently the director of the Environmental Funders Network. And as the name suggests,

441
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:24,800
that's a network of funders who are passionate about trying to support environmental causes.

442
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:31,920
But what Florence and many others have noticed is that the philanthropic space, despite the huge

443
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:38,800
resource and capability that that sector has, that even though a lot more money has gone into

444
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:44,960
environmental causes, we haven't seen a kind of comparable impact. And there are lots of reasons

445
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,840
for that. Partly it's because funders have been working in little silos, on their own little pet

446
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:55,520
projects and not connecting to each other. Partly it's because environmentally people tend to have

447
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,640
been focusing on kind of symptoms rather than systemic causes, not really kind of working with

448
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:07,680
the overall system. And so what she and a gentleman called Andres from an organization

449
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:13,760
called the BioLeadership Project, we came together to sort of say, well, can we create a space to

450
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:21,440
allow funders to operate differently? And the kind of guiding star of the lab, the Earth Funding Lab,

451
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,400
is to create economies that serve life. So it's a space where we're bringing together funders of all

452
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:31,520
different kind of colors and stripes to come together to say, well, how can we sort of learn

453
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:36,720
and unlearn about what it means to have an economy that serves life and about what it means for our

454
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:42,880
own practice as funders to be able to try and bring that about? So yeah, so I kind of lead one

455
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:50,640
of the three work streams in that lab. What does your day-to-day role in that look like?

456
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:56,960
What are you doing? Well, so in that, I mean, it's a relatively small part of my day-to-day life.

457
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:02,560
The majority of my day-to-day life is spent on the Teal Collective and the clients that we have there.

458
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:08,480
But within the Earth Funding Lab, primarily I'm leading one of our three work streams. So the

459
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,600
work stream that I lead is specifically looking at how might our tax system evolve to support

460
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,480
the greater thriving of life. At the moment in the UK, we have a very unfair tax system and also a

461
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,680
tax system which incentivizes a lot of the behaviors that we don't want to see and

462
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,360
disincentivizes some of the good stuff. So in direct relationship to what we were talking about

463
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:32,480
earlier, for example, there is VAT on repair and restoration of properties, but there's not VAT on

464
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:38,640
kind of starting from scratch. So it's cheaper for people to build a new home than to restore an old

465
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,200
one, for example. Oh my God, yeah. I was talking to someone about this yesterday. They were saying

466
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:46,880
they were buying a property, but they didn't want to renovate. They didn't want to renovate it. They

467
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,880
wanted to knock it down and start again because they wouldn't have to pay VAT then. Yeah, exactly.

468
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,800
So that's like, that's a perfect example. I was just talking about that yesterday. I mean, yeah.

469
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,320
And it's completely crazy. And everyone who looks at it from the outside goes, well, that's mad

470
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,600
because why wouldn't we make use of it? And often people are like, oh, there's lovely features to

471
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,160
older homes that I'd like to keep and have homes with more character or yeah. And it's often much

472
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,320
cheaper. Well, like you would think as an individual to be like, well, I'd rather kind of keep some of

473
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,920
these things. It's certainly much cheaper environmentally to not use a whole load of new

474
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:19,680
resources and so on. But yeah, at the moment, our tax system is completely skewed away from a lot of

475
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,760
the things that we want to see. So the work stream that I lead is about helping these organizations

476
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,560
to identify where are those little acupuncture points? IE, where are the little interventions

477
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:34,000
that we could maybe support as funders that could have bigger ripple effects into the broader tax

478
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:41,040
ecosystem? So that's how would you get that funded? So the people in this, in the lab are funders,

479
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:47,440
they're representing philanthropic organizations with, with money to give away. So we are identifying

480
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:52,000
the initiatives that they might want to put their money into that will have ripple effects.

481
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:58,240
So if you were, for example, right. So you're talking about the tax system. Yeah.

482
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:04,400
And the VAT, how would somebody fund that? What were you talking about funders who want to make

483
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:10,000
a profit? No, no, no, no. Giving away money for charitable. Yeah. Yeah. For philanthropic causes.

484
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:16,000
Yes. So philanthropic charitable. Yes. Philanthropic means yeah, like for good,

485
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,880
no profit expected. You know, they often also have investment arms, which will expect a return of

486
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:26,720
some kind, but often they can do that in a more patient way. IE, they can expect a lower level

487
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:30,880
of return or over a longer time period. So they can invest in things different to say a venture

488
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:37,520
capitalist firm or would do. So these people would fund you to do more research about VAT or to

489
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:43,520
influence that. So the way it's been working at the minute is so in my work stream, we collectively

490
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:48,480
did some research. We invited a whole lot of speakers in, we did interviews to kind of give

491
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,160
us a bit more of a connection to the field of organizations who were already working in the

492
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:57,760
space of tax justice in different ways. And that allowed us to develop the kind of a picture of,

493
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:02,080
well, here are a few ideas of things that might need more support. Like, oh, there's this amazing

494
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,880
initiative that's happening, but it's tiny. You know, it needs something to really help it launch

495
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:12,400
to the next level. Or we identified a theme where there's a whole load of fantastic kind of pockets

496
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,560
of work, but they're not well connected to each other. So what if we helped to either bring them

497
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,720
together through an event or hired someone specifically to be what we call the ecosystem

498
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:25,920
weaver to connect those spaces, to help them to meet and know one another. How can we also help

499
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:31,760
the amazing work that they're doing to meet, to connect with policy makers, whether they're

500
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,080
kind of within government, but also kind of people in the media who massively influence the agenda.

501
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:42,240
How can we be engaging with them? And so how can we develop round tables to sort of help?

502
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:47,280
Because there's so much data which demonstrates that actually the majority of people in the UK

503
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:53,200
are happy for there to be higher taxes provided they're fair, i.e. overwhelming young people who

504
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:58,240
are much richer. So the majority of people wouldn't pay more, but the wealthy people and institutions

505
00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:03,360
pay more tax in order to fund the stuff that we collectively want, that we do want good public

506
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:08,000
services and we do want a just transition. We don't want our future to be completely trashed

507
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,800
by climate change. We would like our children, our grandchildren to have some kind of feasible future.

508
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,960
So people are saying, actually, yeah, when I listen to some evidence, I would really like that,

509
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,560
but there's again, there's this narrative in government that goes, oh, and we heard that

510
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,800
play out in the recent election massively. We can't possibly talk about increasing taxes because

511
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:31,040
people freak out. We go, actually, if you increase the taxes on people with over one million pounds

512
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:36,720
worth of assets, for example, by 1% and you increase people who have over one billion pounds

513
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:44,800
of assets by 2%, you get over 50 billion pounds of income every year into the government, which

514
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:51,200
more than resolves the restoration of the NHS. If you make sensible choices with tax, you can really

515
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:58,560
dramatically transform society. But there is an absolute cowardice in our current leadership to

516
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:03,760
actually be able to talk about this topic because they're just afraid people will go, oh, I'll run

517
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:08,400
away from that. And it was just devastating, I think, to see the really damaging rhetoric in

518
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:14,720
the recent election where it was just like, taxes are evil. And it's like, it really depends on what

519
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:18,320
tax you're talking about and on who. I think most people would agree that fossil fuel companies

520
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,960
should pay more tax. I think most people would agree that Google should pay more tax. I think

521
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:28,960
most people would agree that Rishi Sunak should pay more tax. It really, really depends what you're

522
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:34,400
talking about. And it's been used as a massive excuse to not make some really important decisions

523
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:58,720
that would benefit all of us. That was a nice little break. We just started going off on a

524
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:06,640
tangent there and we were like, well, we need to press record. Cross my legs. I'm getting comfy

525
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:12,640
now. Harvey's having a right cuddle with Hannah. He likes you. He knows that you're a super person.

526
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:20,400
Thank you, Harvey. So just to summarize, as a designer, if I was to say, make a point of

527
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,520
every time I have a supplier meeting to talk about what are you doing to be regenerative,

528
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:33,840
what are you doing to be more sustainable? How are your products adaptable and built to last?

529
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:41,280
Is that a good thing to start doing? I think asking questions is a massive thing. I think

530
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:46,000
starting with that it's really important to you and that it's a key part of how you want to do

531
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,800
business, whether you're talking to a supplier or a customer is key. I think it completely then

532
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:55,440
just sets the frame. And I think it's often really surprising people have an assumption about what

533
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,440
won't be important to people. They're like, oh, if I mentioned this customer's going to think I'm

534
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:04,240
barking up the wrong tree. No, it's been really interesting to me in so many spheres of life,

535
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:06,880
when you've just gone in and been honest and said, this is something that I really care about,

536
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:12,080
how many people have been relieved to have the permission to say, me too. And I'm so glad that

537
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:17,280
we can now talk about that. So be honest about it being a priority for you if it is. And I'd say,

538
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:22,800
secondly, I would say be upfront about wanting to build long-term trusting relationships to say,

539
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:28,240
look, I want to build a relationship with you, no matter what that context is, that is not just

540
00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:33,280
about the transaction, that I want us to be able to be honest with you about the challenges that

541
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:37,120
I have in my business and for you to have in yours. And you may not be able to say it like that in

542
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:42,080
each meeting, but like you said earlier, to be cultivating intentionally relationships with

543
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,680
customers where you can say to them, look, I obviously need to make a return on this.

544
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,440
And that understanding is there and where your supplier could say the same thing to you and go,

545
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,200
if we do that, then we're going to have to cut this corner. And how do you feel about that?

546
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:58,400
So I think that's a massive thing is trying to build relationships with that trust and vulnerability

547
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:06,160
and honesty in. So what if a designer wasn't in a position that I am where I can say no to something

548
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,160
if I don't want to do it and they needed the work, would you have any advice for someone like that?

549
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,280
Yeah, I think that's a really important question because I think there might well be lots of people

550
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,800
thinking, oh, this is all very well and good if you've got enough money coming in. And I think

551
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,720
that is a really crucial question because as with the tree framework I mentioned earlier,

552
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:25,360
when you think about money as a nutrient, you don't want too much, no organism out there wants

553
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:30,960
too much, but you also need enough. It's absolutely crucial that this is not about sacrificing

554
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,440
yourself. This is about making sure that you have enough to do the work that you want to do well.

555
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,360
So it absolutely is crucial that you have that. I would say that from the experience of setting up

556
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:44,080
the Teal Collective, when I set up the Teal Collective, what I did intentionally was to try

557
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:51,840
and make it really lean, really low overhead so that I'm never in a position of having to compromise

558
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,640
our values, our principles, what we're here to do, because I need to get that job in.

559
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,640
Because there might be a scenario where that happens at some point where whatever I fall

560
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:06,640
on hard times and things change, but the intention of the business is to try and reduce those overheads

561
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:13,280
as much as possible so that I'm not in the place of going, oh my God, I have to pay 10 salaries at

562
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,360
the end of this month, so we have to take this job even though it's totally not in line with our

563
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:24,000
values. I want to avoid that possibility as much as possible. So I would say that you can never,

564
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,600
I'm certainly not going to sit here and say that person out there, if you're in a position where

565
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:32,640
you have to take a job because you need to survive, you have to. I'm certainly not going to tell you

566
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:37,440
not to do that. But I am going to say that you can try and design your own organization from the

567
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:42,400
beginning to give you as great a chance as possible of being able to prioritize the values that you

568
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:47,920
care about. And so maybe it's about making it a lean organization that means that you can really

569
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:52,400
adapt and respond to the scenario and not have to compromise. It's also about some of those

570
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,960
fundamental questions, like I mentioned earlier, like setting yourself up organizationally legally

571
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:01,360
as an organization that can prioritize the greater thriving of life over profit.

572
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:06,320
If you set yourself up as a shareholder and organization with a company, a limited liability

573
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:11,520
company, the overwhelming legal leaning, you are immediately setting yourself up in the direction

574
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:16,800
of prioritizing short-term profit. The organization that I run is an organization limited by guarantee,

575
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:22,320
which is a legal structure available in the UK, which means that legally my organization can

576
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:28,480
only ever use the money that it gains for its purpose. It can never be something that I sell

577
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:34,400
and make millions of pounds from. It means the legal structure guarantees that the money that

578
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:39,040
comes into this organization is used to further its mission. So there are lots of things that you can

579
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:44,800
do as an organization to make making the regenerative choice more easy, make it more natural. The sort

580
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,520
of general direction the organization is pointed in, but absolutely you will all, you need to make

581
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:55,360
sure that you have enough nutrients. But often the answer to that is by reducing, asking yourself,

582
00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:02,640
do I really need to have 10 offices? Do I really need to have X, Y, and Z? Or can we do things

583
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,560
lighter in a way that means that we can actually prioritize the quality of what we do?

584
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:16,800
Yeah. Just while you're saying that, I was thinking in COVID, we got a lot smaller,

585
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:23,840
our business completely restructured and we're now a much smaller business in terms of people.

586
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:32,960
But I subcontract out when I need to and we're a lot more profitable and we're a lot less wasteful

587
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:39,120
in terms of the way that we work because we've restructured and made it smaller.

588
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,920
And that has put me into a position where I can say no to things. If I've got a client who's

589
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:48,720
behaving badly or saying that they don't care about the environment, for example, not that

590
00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:52,400
no one's ever said that to me, but I can say no to things and stuff like that.

591
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,720
Yeah. And I think that's priceless, isn't it? Like that ability to be able to say we can act in

592
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,680
congruence with our values. That's something that's-

593
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:00,480
How free is that?

594
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,880
Yeah. And the kind of amount of wellbeing that brings is really hard to put a price on.

595
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,920
I wouldn't be doing this podcast if that happened.

596
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:16,480
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I was curious about having had this chat and thought about things

597
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:21,600
in the way that you clearly have. I wonder, do you have thoughts for yourself, like experiments

598
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:26,400
you're going to put in place in your own business or things that you are interested to maybe try

599
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,000
another time? Yeah.

600
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,840
I came up with an idea a minute ago when we were chatting, when we were supposed to be recording,

601
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:39,040
where I think with the library that we've got quite a large library with all different samples

602
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:44,800
in, which I love as if anyone has heard, listened to this podcast, they'll know I love my library.

603
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:54,320
And I've decided to put a corner of the library to a sustainable corner. So anything that,

604
00:53:54,320 --> 00:54:02,160
any supplier that comes in and we have a material that is recycled and recyclable,

605
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:09,360
goes into one bit and maybe have a secondary one that's recycled, but not recyclable.

606
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:14,720
One that's recyclable, that's not so recycled. You could go, but I think maybe having a corner

607
00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:21,440
of the library where it is our go-to, that's the first place we go to, which has got all of the

608
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:27,280
recycled material, I think would be a really nice start. I know a lot of them anyway, and I do go

609
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:33,200
to them, but I also write one of the things I already do, which may or may not appeal, is I've

610
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:39,440
got a permanent marker on my desk and whenever I have a supplier come in who's got a recycled

611
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:44,560
product, I write recycled on it. So you can clearly see it. So in a year's time when I've

612
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:49,120
forgotten all about what that person had just said to me, I can go to that book and go,

613
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:55,920
that's all recycled, that's good. So that kind of thing I think is really important.

614
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:58,000
But yeah, that's my take on it.

615
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:03,360
Lovely. Yeah. And one other organization I haven't bigged up yet, which I'd just love to just throw

616
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:09,760
in as we come to the end, was Interface Carpets. So Interface have done amazing things in terms of

617
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:14,800
trying to reduce waste. So carpets, you'll know much better than I do, can sometimes be quite

618
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:21,440
difficult to remove and also often use like quite toxic glues to hold them down. And they have

619
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:26,480
developed, they used those little lizards called geckos that can shimmy up glass and...

620
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:27,200
Oh yeah.

621
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:32,080
Yeah. They've got like incredibly sticky feet that means that they can climb on all these kind of

622
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:37,760
amazing surfaces, but it's not, obviously they don't use any kind of glue. It's like this amazing,

623
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,000
I don't know, texture to their feet, which means that it can grip.

624
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:42,400
Really?

625
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:42,960
Like a sucker.

626
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:47,360
Yeah. But also can release really easily. And so be removed really easily.

627
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:53,200
And Interface examined this, the way they do it. And they've now developed a version that they use

628
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:57,280
on their carpet so that their carpet never has to, it's really easy to take up bits of it and

629
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,040
replace it so that you don't have to replace the whole lot. It's really easy to remove it. There's

630
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:05,840
no use of any toxic glues and it's really easy to reuse it because you lift it up, you cut it into

631
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,680
a different shape, you put it down somewhere else. It's, there's none of that kind of, oh,

632
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,720
in order to pull it up, we have to rip it into pieces and it becomes completely unusable.

633
00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:17,600
So they have done some amazing things, amazing things in their design, which have been totally

634
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:22,320
about looking at how does nature operate? How can we use more of that inspiration in what we do?

635
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:27,600
And I would just encourage any designer out there to just be thinking to yourself.

636
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:31,360
And like I'd say the ultimate practice, and I do this in my own business, whenever there's like any

637
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:37,600
different challenge that comes up or a new question I'm grappling with, my first thing is,

638
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:43,600
what does nature do? Go outside, have a walk around and be like, when nature has this problem,

639
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:48,880
whatever it is, what does it do? What happens? There's actually an amazing website called Ask

640
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:53,280
Nature, which you can actually type your question in and it will tell you like, oh, this is how

641
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,600
nature responds to this if there's a precedent. Yeah, that is just the ultimate source of

642
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,440
inspiration. When I talk about what it means to be regenerative, creating conditions for the greater

643
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:07,680
thriving of life, the great news is we already have the world's best teacher because nature

644
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,840
has been creating conditions for the greater thriving of life for 3.8 billion years.

645
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:18,000
We have all the wisdom, all the answers that we could ever need. We just need to learn to listen

646
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:24,160
and to use it. So it's, yeah, I think it's actually a really reassuring thing to remember that when

647
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:28,160
you're grappling with something and it's, oh, how on earth am I going to do this? So often the answer

648
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:36,480
is just like under our nose as if we learn to look. Well said. I just want to say thank you so

649
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:41,280
much for coming in. I really appreciate it and respect your time for coming in and doing this

650
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:46,160
because I know you were a very busy lady doing all the things that you do. And yeah, no, I really

651
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:50,880
appreciate how you've taken the time to want to educate designers as well. So thank you from our

652
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:55,360
community because I'm sure everyone will have a take home from this and yeah, thank you for coming

653
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:59,280
on. Oh no. And the temple. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I feel like I want to make a round

654
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:04,880
of applause. It'd be amazing to have a temple. Oh, I'd be bowing to those of you not watching,

655
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:09,280
but yeah, thank you so much. Such a joy to be here with you, with a friend. So lovely. And I've

656
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:14,240
actually just remembered one last shout out, which is just on the point of designers. I'm part of

657
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:18,160
something called the Life Centre Design School, which is run by someone else. I just ship in as

658
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:22,720
a contributor, but it's a beautiful initiative. I'd really recommend anyone checking it out.

659
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:27,280
Life Centre Design School. So I'll put all of this in the notes and your contact details in

660
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:32,800
the notes as well. Of course, please be in touch. Yeah. And seriously, the green party, I never

661
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:37,360
thought that I would be there, but meeting you and listening to all of the things that you said,

662
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:42,000
I actually am totally in and I really wish I'd voted now because I didn't vote because I was

663
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:46,240
just like, I'm not voting for them lot. And now I'm like, I wish I'd voted for Hannah. Oh, that's

664
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:51,280
green. That's just amazing to hear. I really, I do think things are really changing and yeah,

665
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:55,760
I certainly had never had any interest in being a politician ever growing up, but I just,

666
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:01,200
like we talked about earlier, legislation and regulation has such a massive impact on our lives

667
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:06,880
and our jobs and every aspect. And it just seems to be pointed in just the wrong direction. And

668
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,920
I think I just got really sick of waiting for better politicians to come along and just felt

669
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:16,640
like if we want things to be different, we need to use every channel available to us. And so if you

670
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:21,840
are curious out there, get involved, find your local parties, get involved in it. I would just

671
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:26,080
really recommend it and make up your own mind about what's right for you. Just so you know,

672
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:30,560
the day after I met Hannah, I told her that I think she should be the prime minister.

673
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,720
And I genuinely think that I think she would be amazing. Just saying.

674
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:55,680
It's on the record now. See you next time.