Welcome to the Interior Design Podcast. I'm Hayley Roy, a commercial interior designer
with a passion for creating beautiful functional spaces.
And I'm Cheryl Sutton, an interior designer and architectural designer. Hayley and I have
worked together on various projects over the years and have plenty of insights to share
with you guys.
On many episodes, Cheryl and I team up to bring you engaging and lively discussions.
Our differing views often lead to interesting debates, giving you two sides of many topics
we cover. While Cheryl won't be on every episode when she does join, it's always insightful.
Thanks. We started this podcast because we feel strongly about interior design and the
importance of educating designers. A lot of what you'll hear from us, you won't learn
in a course. As designers, there's so much we need to know in order to do our jobs well.
And we want to give you a forum where you can access the information you need. Whether
you are an aspiring designer, someone designing your own home or a seasoned professional working
in a residential or commercial design, this podcast is here to help you improve and thrive.
We're not about ego stroking interviews with big names. Instead, we focus on practical
advice that you can apply directly to your work.
You'll learn about different products, their applications and sustainability practices.
Our goal is to equip you with the knowledge you need to excel in your projects. And remember,
if it's not fun, we're not doing it. So expect also expect a bit of humor and a few expletives
along the way. Maybe a few innuendos. Now a quick note on production. We are interior
designers, not sound producers. I'm handling the editing myself. So please be patient
with any technical glitches. I'm improving my production skills as the podcast progresses.
And I appreciate your understanding. However, if there are any editors, sound editors out
there who'd like to volunteer their skills in return for a mention, please feel free
to reach out. Thanks for tuning into the interior design podcast. Let's dive in and start this
journey of learning and fun together. Hello listeners. We've got people all over the world
listening to this now. Have we? It's amazing. Like Australia, America. That's pretty cool.
Fiji. That's pretty cool. I know, right? How many countries? Maybe we need to go over there
and do a podcast. Yeah, I think I think Fiji. I think Fiji needs to pay us to go over there
and do it. Welcome to the interior design podcast. Hi. Where we are in our new studio
and we've got video. We've got a little round set up. It's amazing. This is my warehouse.
Would you know it? I love it. Cheryl was here sweating yesterday. I've set up all the microphones
and I moved the furniture. Cheryl created this. I brought the muscles and you bring
the brains. I'm the braids and you're the brawn. No, I don't know about that. I'm not
sure about that. After we tried to lift this carpet yesterday and Hannah had to help us
and I'm like, I can't lift it. So weak. But yeah, I think we've done really well. It looks
amazing. It looks amazing. And I actually, I really love the fact, Haley, that we're
in the warehouse. I've just got, I just got a really nice vibe about it. It's a bit funky,
isn't it? A bit of a mess over that side. Yeah. Don't look over there. It looks great
here. So what are we talking about today? We are talking about the process of interior
design from concept through to completion. So Cheryl, do you want to start us off? It
sounds really straightforward, doesn't it? Like, you know, from an outsider's perspective,
you'd think that the design process would be a straight line. Then you do concept, you
get your brief, you do concept boards and you take it through a process. But as with
anything and everything, it's never as straightforward as that. It's always, you know, it kind of
goes off in different directions and it's maybe one step forward and a couple of steps
back along the way. But I say, so from my point of view, it depends, doesn't it, upon
the client? If the client has got a really clear vision of what they're trying to create
in a space, you as designers, we take, obviously we take direction from that. But then I think
some of the challenging schemes that we work on are the ones where there's almost no real
brief and no real kind of direction or, and it's okay if they don't have an opinion and
then you just crack on with it and do it. But the trouble is when they don't give you direction
and they don't like what you've done or you kind of don't know where to go, you don't
get any feedback. Feedback is so important, isn't it?
So no, always for me initially starting off with getting a really good understanding from
the client of what they are looking to achieve in terms of the feel of the space. Obviously
we've spoken about, we've touched on before I think on a podcast about the importance
of the connection of design in relation to brand. If you're, obviously if we're looking
at kind of commercial businesses. But my first point of call will always be just getting
as much information from the client as possible and then starting to pull together a visual
representation of where I think the design should head. And then, and like signposting,
so they're constantly giving feedback at every stage throughout the process.
Do you know what I always find that when you talk to the client a lot right at the beginning,
you don't have to redo stuff. Yeah.
Cause you're just on the same page as them.
Well yeah, and also you're actively listening. I think, you know, there's probably situations
where you can ask loads of questions, but if you're not listening properly, you're not
going to get it right, are you?
I always say that the most important thing about being a designer is the ability to listen.
Just like my mantra, because I love tapping into other people. And I think the difference
between designers is huge and some designers have got their own style and you go to that
designer because they have that certain style. But most people don't want that. They want
you to realize their dream. They want to come to you and go, this is what I want, make it
happen. And you know, and I get so much pleasure out of that because I'm really good at being
able to communicate and tap into the client.
It's almost like you take, it's almost like, yeah, there's a feeling, isn't there? I like,
am I going to explain this? For me, there's this feeling.
There's something in you.
Yeah. Sorry.
It's always been in me.
Something in me. Do you remember that on the About Us one?
Yes I do. Thank you for pulling that.
Sorry, if you want to hear about what we're talking about, listen to the About Us podcast.
It's always been in me.
Anyway.
Sorry, I completely distracted you there.
Yeah, because now I've got to try and remember what it was. I think for me, there's this
feeling that I get when a client comes up with an idea or a vision and it's just like
a little seed and then you take that and you develop it and you grow it. And that's where
the, for me, that's where the real kind of satisfaction comes in because then you deliver
that back to the client with this, they would have been happy with you just taking their
idea and implementing that, but you've not done it. You've thought-
You make it better.
You make it better. Yeah. And I think that's, I love that. I think that's just really cool.
Yeah. Now I really like working with people rather than, I always say to people, I work
for you. What do you want and what can we do? And what I'm going to do is grow it and
give you tons of ideas and I'll feed these out into you maybe with some options, maybe
do some, so the first thing I would do is have that meeting with a client, ask them
millions of questions. Million, not millions, not literally millions.
Lots and lots of questions.
A lot of questions. Things like, I mean, I was in a meeting the other day doing the,
initial consultation and I was asking the client about their brand and the guy who owned
the business was there and the guy who, I'm working on a garden center restaurant, like
a 250-seater restaurant, and there was an owner and then there was a manager and the
manager was so lovely. He was just so, he was so in with the business and I love working
with people like that because you know, and the business was really successful with a
very dated interior, so you always know that whatever you do to that restaurant is going
to make that more successful. So yeah, so, but my point was in concept stage, I was like,
so what's your values? So, you know, in a business you have a vision and a mission normally,
don't you? What's your vision? What's your mission? What are your values? You know, they're
good things to ask a business or a personal client, you know, what's your mission? You
know, what's your, not necessarily what's your vision and mission, but maybe what's
your values? You know, are you a family person or are you a, so yeah, I was asking this guy
what are your values? And he kind of rolled his eyes.
Oh, did he?
And he was like, oh God, here we go. This is the fluffy bit. And he was really not,
I mean, he knows he's got to do it.
The thing is, some people are receptive to that kind of stuff and others are not.
And you've got to shut up if they're not because they just don't want to hear it. So like,
I, yeah, because you like just keep banging on about it.
Some people love it.
No, but I want to understand what your ethics and values are.
Yeah.
But please, what are they?
Just stop talking at that point and listen to the rolling of the eyes, you know, just
get the hint. But so some of my questions are obviously vision, mission, values. The
next one is if your brand were a person, who would it be? And I nearly asked the question
just to see his reaction.
I mean, I'm not going to lie, Haley. That one makes me feel a little bit, I'm not comfortable
with that one.
Oh my God, though. You know, the noodle bar and culture sit though. They told me, Sue,
who is this? Who's the gay lady on telly Sue something?
Sue Perkins.
Sue Perkins. That was their person. Right. And even as a business.
Yeah.
They were Sue Perkins.
Yeah. Is it Sue Perkins? The one who used?
Dark hair.
Yeah, yeah. Short hair. Always wears suits.
Yeah. Dated. Oh God. What's her name? Other woman that does.
Claudia Winkleman.
Oh, Claudia Winkleman.
Claudia Winkleman used. Oh God. I might have got that totally wrong. I don't keep up with
any kind of current affairs. You know, that's interesting. But I also don't like that question.
Don't ever ask me that question.
I think I asked you that question when you were branding Rebel.
What as a person? Like, who would I be if I was a person?
I think it's in my branding workshop.
No, it's not. Oh, do you remember when we did that branding workshop? And then after
about three and a half hours, we were sat in the studio, in the old studio. Do you remember
it?
Yeah.
In the evening?
Yeah.
We'd have pizza.
It was amazing.
We were drinking gin. Yeah, I remember literally sitting in the studio for three and a bit
hours, like getting a little bit drunk with you eating pizza. And then it was literally
a light bulb moment. Do you remember? And we both went.
Never forget that.
And I was like, Oh, God, that's it. That is it. This is the name. This is the brand. And
you were like, Oh, my fucking God. Yes. 100% you. I was like, Mm hmm. That's what we're
doing.
But that's the joy of the branding workshop. So this is this is another thing that I would
do as a process. If someone didn't know what their brand was or who their brand was. So
you quite often go into a really successful business and they've got a logo. They don't
know what the personality is. They want to change the logo. They don't know what it represents.
They want, you know, they want someone to just redesign it for them. But it's just not
it's for me so much more than just a logo. Yeah. Like you want to know the personality
of that business. You want to know who it is. Yeah. And this is where that question
comes in. But when I gave that question to the noodle bar, they were all over it. They
loved it. So you've got to be you've got to really tap into your audience. And you've
got if you have a list of questions like that, like if your brand was a person, who would
it be? Cheryl fucking hates that. But I love it. I'm all over it. Who would I be? Who would
I be? You would be a rebel. You would be you. Harp design. Who would I be? Oh, I don't know
enough celebrities. No, I was going to say exactly the same thing. Maybe it needs to
be like, what would your spirit animal be if you were like, I'm a monkey. Are you? I'm
definitely a monkey. I was born in the year of the monkey, but I've always like, I love
monkeys. I love monkey wallpaper. I love monkey. I loved it. We loved it when we did twire
and we did put the monkey lights. But there's some really cool ones, isn't there? But yeah,
going back to concept. Yeah. So if someone's got a brand, they they sometimes have brand
guidelines, documents, always ask for those at the beginning. But yeah, it's just asking
loads of questions and just being really, really in tune with your client. Having that
rapport with your client is so important, especially in residential. Yeah. Like they've
got to like you and you've got to listen because if you don't listen, you're done on you. Something
that I actually have really tapped into with in terms of questioning at that concept, like
initial discussion stage has come about off of the conversation that we had or the podcast,
sorry, that we had with Karen. And, you know, we were talking about obviously psychology
of colour. If you haven't heard that podcast, honestly, I can't recommend it enough. I think
it was the first one that we released. I learned so much from that podcast from chatting to
her. And so now that's something that I try and take into my, yeah, my job when I'm talking
to people about what they're, you know, trying to understand what they want from a space,
how they want it to feel, what that feels like, what that looks like, how that feeling
looks like to them. It's really cool, isn't it? I love it. I love that first bit where
you're getting to know people and I love all of it. But oh, the first bit is definitely
the best. I think people don't necessarily, like you said earlier, like the people don't
understand how much goes into what we do. And when you start asking questions, they
realise how deep you go, you know? Sorry. Ding. Do you go really deep? Maybe. Yeah.
Sorry. Yeah. You have to. So we've talked about initial discussions with the client
is super important and gaining as much information and understanding about their brand or their
personality if they're an individual. And, you know, maybe taking on some of the elements
that we we touched on with Karen about understanding what, what feelings or what feelings look
like to them. Obviously branding we've briefly touched on, I think. And then the next stage
for me is about pulling together that visual representation of, OK, well, from that, all
of that information that you've just kindly provided, this is what I think would work
and this is what I think would look really cool. Something actually often a bit of a
tangent. I really, really, really want to do a podcast about, in fact, I think this
is what we've got Pippa coming in for, right? In September. Haley and I have, I've been
like literally saying to Haley for ages, I really want to do a podcast with an architect,
you know, fully qualified architect that where we can talk about how important it is or if
they don't think it's important about how the connection between interior design and
architecture with in terms of buildings, not just new buildings, but with maybe historic
buildings, buildings that are listed because I, that's definitely something that runs through
my design. I'm so conscious and so aware because of the training that I've had in the degree
that I've got under my belt. Like what's your degree? Tell our listeners what your degree
is. I mean, you know, I, I studied for six years at uni and got my degree in architecture
and I only got my first part, but part one, part one, but that's, that was enough for
me. But it was good to get an understanding and, but you know, that's something that I
am really passionate actually about. I'm actually really passionate about that. And I, and I,
I think that's something that I bring to the table is not just doing something that is
completely against what building I'm working in. You have to be in tune with the building.
If you go against it. But there is a time and a place Hayley where you can do it. But
yeah, that's something that I'm really interested in talking to Pippa about when she comes in.
Oh, I can't wait. Pippa is amazing. She's an architect. She works for her dad's partnership
and Jay architects in Ipswich. She's amazing. Yeah. She's cool. She's amazing. So yeah,
we're excited to get her on. So yeah, that's coming up. So yeah, concept images, visual
representation of, of, you know, what you, what your, your thoughts or even sketches,
you know, I kind of love sketching stuff out to show people, Oh, I'm thinking of this or
could do this. And again, it's always like a work in progress and it gets developed and
changed along the way. But I think don't be afraid of sketching something out and it looking
rubbish either. Even if it's just a box, just anything to communicate. Yeah. What's in your
head, what's in your head or what's in what you think is in their heads. And that communication
is so important into your design. I think you've got to constantly be reassuring the
client that you know what you're talking about and explaining why you're doing stuff as well
and things like that. So that, especially the early stage concept and general arrangement
I always do together. Yeah. So, you know, Pinterest board potentially, I don't really
do that anymore unless I'm kind of messing about on my sofa on a Saturday night and I
just want to get some ideas down. But generally I'll, I'll put something straight into a design
pack and yeah, general arrangement as well. And then you, once you've got the concepts
in the general arrangement, you've got like the general gist of where you're going. Yeah.
You speak to the client about it. I was going to say, that's the point, isn't it? That's
the opportunity for you to get that first critical point of feedback from the client
to make sure that you are in, you know, heading in the right direction. Because we do, this
is the other thing. You can ask as many questions as you want and think that you understand
and you know where you need to go with something. And sometimes you get it wrong. And sometimes
you present, you present something for feedback and you get a big fat no. And you're like,
I hate that. I don't, I don't get that very often anymore. There's nothing wrong with
that. But no it isn't. That's why you check in. Because it's a process and sometimes the
process is by delimitation, isn't it? Rather than someone just going, yeah, I love it all.
And actually, do you know what? I like the clients that say, oh no, I don't think much
of that because I'm then like a dog with a bone. Oh me too. Yeah. Give me some negative
feedback. Yeah. Cause then I'm like, right, let me explain because I can justify, I think
as designers, you have to be able to justify every single decision that you're making.
A hundred percent. And if you can't justify it, you shouldn't be using it. You shouldn't
be using it because you've not given it any thought. You've literally just stuck it in.
Oh, that'll work. Rather than, oh, hang on, will it? Like, does it work with that? Does
it, you know? But why does it work? You're like, it has to have a meaning behind it.
And then it's, and then everything that you've got has got more depth. Yeah. Like, and it's
got more, and also communicating that back to your client. You might, you might have
got that thought process and all the meaning. Yeah. If you haven't communicated that back
to the client, they won't enjoy the interior. So yeah, getting feedback at that stage, really
positive, hopefully positive feedback. If not, you know, maybe a bit of negative stuff
needs changing, but it makes the process a lot easier, I think in the long run, doesn't
it? Especially in terms of like a general arrangement or a floor plan of the space that
you're, you're working on. When I get feedback, I always say, tell me what you hate. If you
even just don't like it that much, or even don't love it. I'm sure about it. Maybe I
don't want to put it in if you don't love it. And I'll, I'll go through it and I'll
explain why I've done everything. But if you don't like it, let's change it. Yeah. One
of the things that I say to my clients is I don't want you to look back into his time
and really swear about, about a decision that we're making now, because if you don't love
it, you might be doing that. So make sure that you, you tell me, you communicate back
to me. And I sort of really encourage that. That's a difficult one though, isn't it? Because
it could be that you, you know, love something and you're completely on board with it. And
in the moment, but then in two years, three years, four, five, whatever, as naturally
the business evolves or your tastes evolve and change, it's natural that potentially
in a few years, you might be like, actually, I wish we'd have done that a bit differently.
Yeah. But you can change it, can't you? Yeah. Yeah. So after, I think the key really is
once you've kind of got to that point where you've got some feedback, good and, and potentially
areas that you can work on and develop, that's the kind of next stage really is developed
design, isn't it? Developed design is never again, just a, you know, one step in the process
and it's like, Oh, brilliant. Love it all. Sign it off next stage. It, you know, that
in itself brings the real depth of feedback and potential changes. Hopefully though, if
you've got the kind of concept side of things, pretty much where it needs to be, you shouldn't
have to change too much, but I think it depends on the client and how much they can visualize
what you're, you're saying. Cause I think some people just can't, just can't visualize
anything. Even if you've got something on a plan until you get it to a 3d visual, they're
just like, I have no idea what it's going to look like. You know, and some, but some
people are really visual and they can picture it all in their heads and they're the easier
people to work with because they can picture it as you're doing it. Yeah. It's a bit more
of a challenge isn't it? When you have to try and yeah. And if you use pictures a lot,
like in your concept board, this is the floor, this is the lighting. This is what I'm thinking
about. This is, and also I try and use actual things. So I'll try and use a picture where
there is something in that picture that I can, I can use. I can specify that I know
that I can get that light for example. So then the next stage isn't so difficult. So
when you're trying, when you just sort of searching Google and I think that comes with
experience, you know, of who to use and the suppliers cause you know where to get things.
But if you're just searching on Google, you just kind of putting together an artistic
impression kind of thing or something, you know, that's a picture, but actually that
light isn't available off the shelf. We have to have that made bespoke. Then it's just
not going to happen if you've got a budget. Yeah. Especially for a commercial property.
And I think that then comes to, you know, when we get to the point where you're kind
of costing projects and we talk about the value engineering side of, of, of these schemes
because ultimately it is just the way that it goes. You know, things change, people's
budgets change. They can change throughout the project. It isn't just about, you know,
having a figure at the start of the project and that's what we're working to. People's
circumstances and business circumstances change, don't they? Yeah. I had one recently where
it was a, there was a flood and the, the client thought the insurance company was going to
pay for everything. Oh, I remember you saying. And we got about a quarter of the way through
the project sort of going, yeah, you know, don't go mad, but you know, specify what you
think is right. And we were putting the car and the floor in and herringbone and nice
lights and things like that. And we got past about a third the way through the project
and literally they were like, Oh no, the insurance company and not paying for this. And they've
excluded certain things that we put in and they put budgets to flooring and things like
that, which we didn't know, you know, and the rest of the project we had to really,
really skim on. And it was such a shame because like the first part of the project just looked
gorgeous. And then the second part of the project, I kind of, where I'd specified a
bar with a whole lot of brickwork on it, it, it got value engineered down to four micra
and eyes and then, but do you know what? I think actually that's a, this is a really
important, that's a really important point that you've just raised because without, you
know, it's not about like selling designers and what they bring to the table. Cause hopefully
most people would appreciate what we do as a job. But I think it's so important in those
situations where you are having to value engineer something, you know, if you were a client
working on a project, just delivering a project on your own, actually having the expertise
of a designer that can say to you, right, well, we need to cut some costs here, you
know, and we're not generally, especially in commercial, it generally isn't small amounts,
you know, the, the, the economies of scale because it's a business mean that it generally
is a slightly larger sum of money in terms of budget that you're cutting. You know, I
think I mentioned to you the project that I was working on this year and last year,
the budget got cut almost in half and it was a, you know, we're talking like million pound
project, like in a 7 million pound project, refit, all of a sudden we had to try and make
it a three and a half million pound project. I'm like, okay. You know, and I think as a
designer having the expertise of a designer that can show you all or advise you on the
areas that you can reduce spend on without it negatively impacting the whole design.
I think that in itself is worth, we're worth our weight in gold for that. I agree. Because
there's a lot of people that will be like, Oh no, we'll just do that. We'll just take
that out. Like absolutely not. That is not the area that we're cutting back on because
that's the key. That's a key feature in the space or that's a, you know, there's other
ways of making those savings and it's not there. Do you know what I mean? How do you
feel when you're, cause I quite often get in, you're the same as me. You have meetings
with you're in a meeting with an architect and structure engineer, you know, the contractors
and you're generally the only girl. Aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot, there's been
a few, yeah, there's been a lot of situations where I am completely outnumbered, but then
at the same time that I'm, I'm there's a lot, you know, there's a lot more women in, in
construction now is in there and, and actually, sorry, you're going to ask me a question.
Can't stop talking. Can't stop talking. Is that second coffee? No breakfast and two coffees.
What were you going to ask me? I was going to ask you quite often you get, and I love
watching you in a meeting because you can hold your own with a whole lot of big hairy
men. But you often, I just wanted to talk about it really, cause you often get, some
people I think would get quite intimidated on that in that situation. And you know, you
and I in a meeting would both hold our own, but I can imagine some designers find that
really difficult. Cause you've got to be really strong. You've got to be like, I mean, I was
having a fight with someone about some flooring and they were like, well, the client wants
to carry a whole lot of barrels across this entrance matting. You know, it's going to
be a hundred kilos at a time. Okay. Well, there's only one kind of flooring that you
can do and that's with the metal strips in it. And the client was like, I don't want
to pay for it. So I was, it ended up having my integrity. I couldn't specify, I couldn't
actually specify what he wanted to specify and what the contractor wanted to specify
because of the money. I couldn't put that in my design pack because it was not fit for
purpose. It's just not. So I was having this conversation with the client and you know,
and they can get quite heated, can't they? Because obviously, you know, ultimately he's
paying you for your service and your expertise, but at the same time, the buck stops with
the client. I don't think that ever got heated. It just, it just got, well, you can do that,
but it's not going in my design pack. Or if it does go in the design pack, it's going
with a massive disclaimer, disclaimer saying, I don't recommend this. This is a client's
choice. So, you know, I think you've got to keep your integrity, but you've got to be
able to be flexible. You know, if the client doesn't want to spend the money, it's going
to get destroyed in a few years. He's going to have to replace it. He's not going to come
knocking on my door and say, you shouldn't have specified that. You know, so.
Yeah, you do really have to cover your ass, don't you? I think to a degree.
Yeah. I don't think it's sort of ass covering. I think it's more kind of integrity, isn't
it? It's more like you've asked me to do this. Like you say, you've employed me as an interior
designer. I'm giving you advice. If you don't want to listen to that advice, that's absolutely
fine. You carry on. Yeah. You know, and you reap the consequences, but don't expect me
to jump on board with that. Yeah. Because I don't agree. And we can happily disagree.
Yeah, exactly. I'm not happy to disagree. I'm not going to get shifty about it.
That's the key, isn't it? It's about actually being able to say, I, you know, we can, yeah,
we don't have to agree on everything and there's nothing wrong with that.
We were going to talk about, can you design to a budget? When you say, can you design
to a budget? Oh, people ask me this all the time. Can you design to a budget? Well, that's
the job. Well, if someone has got a budget down to the last penny and you are interior
designing their restaurant and their budget is unrealistic, you can't, you know, and I
don't think you can design to a budget. I think if someone says to me, can you design
and project manage my restaurant or my house? I've got a hundred grand or I've got 500
grand. A hundred percent I can design to that. But if you want me to just design it and not
be involved after the design process as part of the value engineering process and everything
else, I can't design to a budget because all of the things that you want might generally,
people want more than they can afford. So someone might say, I want marble in my bathroom,
but the budget is this. The budget isn't marble, but it might be, it might, you never know.
You know, if you, if you don't spend money on really nice toilets and really nice basins,
we can make marble happen. It's just about, you've got to balance it. You've got to manage,
it's just playing with the money. It's got all the prices in it. It's about playing with
the money and making it, making it work to the budget. And I think managing, you know,
I think we've spoken about this numerous times that actually it's about managing people's
expectations throughout the process. You know, actually, like we've said before about the
ability as a designer to stand up and actually, you know, like communicate well with clients
about things, you know, whether it's good or bad, you know, if there's a problem on
a project or, you know, or if a client is saying, well, this is what I want. And, and
as designers are saying, you know, if it's, for example, that there's this beautiful marble
that they've had their eye on for years and they want that in the bathroom, but their
budget doesn't allow it. And you know that their budget doesn't allow it. You've got
to be upfront and honest with them and say, but then there might be one thing that that
person wants and then everything else goes out the window so we can get that one thing.
So it's just about playing with money and it's about checking everything in, be really
aspirational and then after you've done that, you bring it down. Yeah. I think it's just
really important that you get a, and like a, a sign off and almost like a final sign
off of the development design before you start costing anything. Once developed design has
been fully developed and again, you're getting feedback from the client throughout that process.
You kind of get to a stage, don't you naturally get to a point where you're like, right, okay,
this is the design is pretty much with, with air with it and then maybe 95 or 99% there
with it. There might be a few points that need a bit of further development or thought,
but you're pretty much the bulk of it's done. And I think at that point, it's really important
for everyone to make everyone's life easy is to get that final kind of clarification
from the client that they're happy with what you've come up with before you then start
taking it to the stage of, okay, we need to get this costed. And that's always a very
nerve wracking time, I think, because whilst you, whilst you can get a really good understanding
of budget and product cost, especially in the market that we live in now in the world
that we live in now since, you know, we keep talking about COVID, which was so many years
ago now, but it, you know, the cost of materials and the cost of labour are just insane. I
mean, we've spoken about this before, you know, and I appreciate that, you know, things
move on and things change and the rate of inflation and, you know, naturally everything
gets more expensive, but it all happened off of COVID. It all happened off the back of
COVID naturally and Brexit, but it never, everyone was talking. I remember having conversations
with people and they were like, oh, it'll all come back down. It'll all come back down.
And I remember thinking it will go down. It will stay the same for a while. This is the
natural progression. This is how the world works. Like, but I think it's so almost, not
volatile. That's not the right word, but it's like, it changes on a weekly basis. Material
costs can change on a weekly basis. So whilst you can put all of that effort in and all
that time into thinking that you're working to a budget or to the client's budget, because
you know the cost of things, if the development design of the design takes three months or
six months or longer, because it's a big project, that budget almost becomes kind of potentially
out of reach, which is why then we get to the stage of costing. It's always a bit scary
and a little bit, you know, is something going to come back and be three times the price
that I thought it was because of the nature of what we've just said. And then comes the
fun part of trying to, okay, right, let's pick it apart a little bit and look at ways
that we can make some savings. Key areas.
I really like doing everything and designing and project managing. Not necessarily project
managing, but working all the way through the project. So some clients will only want
you to design and then they'll take on the project. But I like being involved all the
way through because then you get that control and that ability to be able to value engineer,
because you can just chuck everything in and just go, right, this is aspirational. What
can we do to make this work? If the client's got a budget of this, okay, so we want a living
green wall, but you know, we might not get a living green wall, but we might get a fake
green wall that's a really good quality one. So it looks great or a moss wall, or we might
get some wallpaper of a forest. You don't know, but you've still got that vibe. You
don't have to have, you don't have to spend a shit ton of money. I mean, this is a perfect
example of where we're sitting. So we've recycled absolutely everything to create this set.
But it's not about spending money, it's about being creative. And I think that's one of
the things that interior designers can give to people is that creative edge with things
where you don't necessarily have to spend a shit ton of money.
It's always nice though when you get a project where like... I mean, I don't think it's ever
happened. I don't know what I'm talking about. I was going to say, it's so nice when you
get a project where you've, you know, money's not an issue, no, you know, budget's not even
on the radar.
It's always on the radar.
What am I talking about? Exactly. I tell you what is really frustrating for me is that
when I talk to a client and they don't want to give that information to me, because it's
quite an old, it's really old school way of looking at stuff, isn't it? Like if you know
what... You know, I wouldn't go into a shop to buy some clothes and say, and you know,
and someone says to me, oh, like, you know, what are you looking for? And I tell them
what I'm looking for. You know, I'm going out for dinner or whatever, you know, and
this is what I want. And okay, well, how much money are you looking to spend on this dress
or whatever? Well, you tell me. Do you know what I mean?
I love that.
Will you tell me? Like, I just wouldn't. And design and every, I just, yeah, I don't know.
It's all a bit cloak and dagger for me. I'm like, just be honest. I'm not, I'm not, I'm
not, I'm not going to over design something for you. Or if you've got a really healthy
budget to work to, it's not about taking the piss. It's about getting you what you want
for the best possible price.
But if you look at CDM management, budget is one of the things that is important to
be communicated in under CDM. So if you're doing construction design management and your
principal designer in the notes, I've got, I've got like a template, which I took off
when I did my CDM training in my briefs. Now all of my briefs have a CDM template. If anyone
wants it, just give me an email. But you answer certain questions and part of that is what
is the budget. Yeah. And you have to give it, give that you can't not do that. Yeah.
You can, but then you're stabbing in the dark. I have got a few little tricks though. When
people aren't giving me a budget, I do ask certain questions. And I really like this
one. It's, it's, if you were, if you were talking about a brand that you wanted to spend
money, so you're not going to give me a budget. Okay. Fine. Fair enough. What brand would
you say you were looking at to spend? Would you go Primark or would you go Primani? Or
would you go next or would you go BMW? Or would you go, you know, tell me a brand of
where you want to spend, you know, obviously if you're going Primark, you're going cheap
Ikea furniture in your office. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Which we wouldn't recommend
because it won't last five minutes, but you might have that if I don't think anyone's
ever ever employed me and said Primark, but they have said BMW and they have said, um,
I don't think anyone's ever said next. No one's ever said Armani. No one's ever said
Armani to me, but because those kinds of clients generally don't talk about budget. They just
go. They're just like, this is what I want. Yeah. Yeah. No, budget is important. And I
think the, the value engineering side of things, which we obviously the stage that we kind
of got to is that, yeah, it can be challenging, but it can be. I love it when you get to the
figure and you go, yes. Yeah. And you like tweaked it all. And you've got when you project
management and you've gone to each contractor and go out, can you, can you just shave a
little bit off or how can we cut a bit of this? And you have to do it all the way through.
Even if it's like 200 quid somewhere. Yeah. If you do that all the way through, you can
actually, there are some real highs in this role, isn't there? You know, from the initial
feeling of excitement from a design point of view in terms of concept through to development
of design through to the value engineering, which is a slight, it was just a different
vibe because it's more challenging, but then onto the delivery side of things, that feeling
that you get when you've delivered a project for the cost that you've done it for, or for
the client. And you know that what they've got is like, is awesome and really good value.
And it's been done really well and the quality is amazing and the value for monies is really
good. And it's, oh my God, we've, you know, we've, we've achieved that. We collectively,
the whole team from designers, architects, contractors, suppliers, the client, their
business, like everybody, like we've achieved that. That's awesome. When you do it, like
we were, we've just finishing off Southwell race course and they've invited me to ladies
day. But yeah, we've just, we're just finishing it up now and we're getting the final bits
delivered and it's just so nice. And we've had like, you know, everyone's kind of been
trying to pull in the same direction and I've been designing it while they're doing it,
which is really difficult. So hard. And you know, I sent through a design and then the
client would be like, no, I don't like that. And you know, it's like, you haven't actually
got time to, you haven't got time to change it now. I've had a few conversations like
that because it's so tough, you know, but, but actually everyone has really pulled in
the same direction on that project and it's been really satisfying to see that all come
together. The grandstand looks amazing. I worked really hard on the flooring in the
grandstand to get it really right. I'd put lots of different patterns in on, did Condeen,
put lots of different patterns on the floor and I love it so much. I like it when in there
when it was being laid, I was like, oh my God, it looks amazing. But yeah, that's, that's
the high, isn't it? When you, when you get to finish and some, some clients, the one
disappointing thing and I was talking to someone about this the other day is sometimes people
employ you, you do the design and you never see it. That you don't, when you don't project
around it or you don't see it all the way through. And I haven't got time to kind of
go around the country and, and do stuff if the client's not going to pay me to do, you
know, to help them finish it. Yeah. I'm, I could sort of ask for photos, I suppose, but
I'm just flying by the seat of my pants at the moment. We've got so much going on. Yeah.
I've just haven't got time to sort of chase all the ones that I've done, but it'd be lovely
to see if, if anyone's listening and they've worked with me and I haven't seen any photos,
please send them to me. Oh, no, it's good. I love it. It's cool. I mean, I'm not really
sure that we've given much in the way of, I don't feel like we've been very clear, Hayley,
with like the process. We haven't been very structured, have we? I don't think we should
really call it a process because it isn't, you know, it follows guidelines, doesn't it?
But it's, and you know, also, I guess there's an element of each designer, every designer
will do it slightly differently. I think that's the difficult thing about our industry is
that every designer is different. There's not like a way of working, a way of pricing,
you know, it's, I mean, the RIBA has really helped me with my, I price now on RIBA stages
and I get asked to price for RIBA stages as well. So, so that really helps me price things.
But, you know, it's, it's just about, it is such a vast industry. And also the qualifications
are, do you know what, I was listening to the interior design business podcast. On this
podcast, it was all about, and I would recommend if anyone's looking to get into interior design
that they, they listen to this because it was all about apprenticeships. They have now
got an interior design apprenticeship, which I am so happy about because I've had loads
of interior designers come in and as apprentices, and I've had to put them on a customer service
apprenticeship because they don't do an interior design one. And this lady-
To enable them to learn so that at least it's a way in for them, you mean? Yeah.
But I do get very, very frustrated with the education system in interior design because
you can just do a very short course and become an interior designer, or you can go to university
for a few years. But people who are coming out of university aren't getting taught things
like LRV, CDM- Yeah, we were talking to Lily, weren't you,
upstairs about it? Lily's at uni, she doesn't know any of that.
And she's, so Lily, who's working for Harp at the moment, she's doing the summer holidays.
She's brilliant, but she doesn't know things that I think they should be teaching her in
uni. She's brilliant at software. She's doing really well with software.
But you know what? I think actually a lot of interior designers come from different,
they come about through other areas. Do you know what I mean? So my training was never
in interior design. My training was, my degree was architecture. So I had an understanding
of architecture, which then led me to interior design. And it was a kind of self-learning
process, because, but that's not a bad thing because-
No. The skills that I've got and the knowledge
that I've got from an architectural point of view gives me a different, it's a slightly
different perspective than just going to college or uni and doing an interior design course
that's very specific. I feel like actually it's not necessarily a bad thing because it
means that the type of designers you get are much broader because their knowledge is different
and broader. Do you know what I mean? But at the same time, I'm with you, that there
is key things that need to be taught. LRVs, CDM, like if anyone doesn't know what
that means is light reflectance values, which is really important for critical surfaces
if you're designing for public spaces, and CDM, construction design management, which
if you're a principal designer, you might be needing that.
Even if you're not principal designer, it's still so important to be aware of what the
responsibilities are in terms of your design and what you are designing and how you're
designing and how you're managing that design or how the design is being managed.
I suppose if you're an interior designer or you're a client, you need to know about CDM
if you're doing any construction. It's a legal requirement.
It's legal, yeah. Even a domestic house.
Yeah. If you've got more than one contractor.
And this is what I find really interesting. Yeah, if you... welfare facilities under
CDM rules, even if you have a plumber come in or a heating engineer come in and service
your boiler, there is a responsibility on you as the client, as the customer, to manage
the CDM. The rule is that you have to have... if you
have more than one contractor on site at any one time, you need CDM. So a lot of domestic
projects the contractor will take on principal designer and principal contractor role because
designers... and I've worked with a couple of residential designers who had no idea what
CDM was. But actually, as a designer, even if you're not taking on that role, you need
to say in your terms and conditions, you're not taking on that role because otherwise
it might be assumed that you're taking on that role.
And the client needs to make sure that they know their legal responsibilities and you
have to... well, every project that I quote for, I always send through the responsibilities
so the client's aware of it. But yeah, CDM is a minefield.
We should do a podcast on that. Yeah, definitely. We need a CDM advisor.
We should speak to Daniel Connell. I have already. I've got him.
Who? Tristan? No, Jonathan Rensink.
Oh, let's get him in. Yeah, he's brilliant. He said he'd do it.
I think we should definitely do that. I think that's huge.
So next podcast is Pippa. In September?
I don't know if I'll be editing it by September, but yeah.
Forget about what time of the year it is, what month it is.
I'll try and edit it as soon as it comes. Yeah, Pippa.
Pippa's going to be good. Who knows where it will go, what we'll be
discussing. I mean, I kind of love that about... yeah.
I quite like having these episodes where it's not so structured about... the product side
of things is great, but yeah, it's quite nice just to have a bit of a debate about stuff,
isn't it? Yeah, go deep.
Ha ha. No.
Of course I do. Sorry.
Sorry. No.
Love your laugh.
Oh, well, yeah, if we haven't confused you, hopefully you have enjoyed listening to us
talking about the process. Yeah.
And let's do it again. Let's do the... thank you for joining us
on the Interior Design Podcast. If you liked this episode, please like, share
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please do get in touch. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next
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