Hello and welcome back to the Interior Design Podcast. Today our guest is Erin Froment,
the co-founder of Black Dog Designs who has come to talk to us about pub design. Welcome
Erin.
Thank you for having me, it's nice to be here and see you. So, catch up for the week because
Cheryl's not here so we're just going to catch up for the week with Erin. How are you doing?
What are you getting up to at the moment?
I'm good, I've been all over the country this week. We've had a few handovers and we've
got another one on Monday. So I was actually down in Southampton for snagging meeting yesterday
which went really well and then we've got that handover on Monday and then I also went
to the Cranley which is in Bournemouth for their two week review and it's looking lovely.
It's doing very well which is great news.
It's a proud moment isn't it when you've handed over and it's all done.
Absolutely, yeah there's nothing better as a designer when somebody says outright how
amazing the design is because at the end of the day that's what we all want isn't it
as designers.
Definitely. Yeah this week I went to the Noodle Bar on Saturday which is a project that we've
just finished designing in Colchester and it's one of my favourite restaurants as well.
You know and you're like oh my god I'm designing my favourite restaurant and they've extended
it and I was having dinner with a couple of friends and the owner was like and I can't
take credit for the design, this is my designer and he was like tell everyone about it. I'm
not sure if I'm embarrassed or really proud.
Yeah probably a bit of both.
But yeah that was a really cool designer and Smarlet helped me with that but yeah it was
really cool to see her face as well.
It's always a lot of fun when it goes from plan because we can see the space when we're
looking at plans. We've been doing it for so long haven't we so when we look at the
furniture and how it's laid out but for other people they can't read that the same way.
We just had that done in my house. Me and my husband have had an extension and I could
just see it and he's gone in there and like oh it's a bit smaller than I thought it was
going to be. I'm like no that's exactly what I thought it was going to be like. It's really
weird isn't it? It's like a thing that you've got when you're designing.
Absolutely I mean even with my husband it took a few years for the compromises to stop
because I used to have to show him what I wanted to do before we'd go ahead and do it
and now I go ahead and do it and he's happy.
We have Boris wallpaper in the hallway and he loves it now and it's all.
With hole and done.
It is.
Oh my god.
My favourite wallpaper.
So yeah no other things that I've been doing this week. I'm working on a really exciting
project in Liverpool Street which is a three well it's actually a five story building but
the top and the bottom stories are toilets and I think they might be the best toilets
that I've ever designed. I'm like oh my god I love the toilets. The client's just gone
with it and they just look amazing and the rest of it is all the three stories are three
different so the ground floor is the garden and then the second floor is the amber bar
which we've done like backlit tobacco panelling.
Wow.
Oh my god I'm so excited. Watch out on social media.
What's the other floor?
Oh the third floor is what I'm doing in the moment so the third floor is going to be like
a restaurant bar but it's got a lighter feel to it so it's more teals and like papers with
birds on it by Romo.
That sounds so exciting especially as you're focusing on the toilets because they always
get left behind so it's a lovely one.
Oh my god toilets. They're so important aren't they?
They are very important. I think that's where a lot of the time the budget is cut and they
should not be cut because people remember what the toilets are especially women because
we go in there have a natter and if it is horrendous yeah we remember that.
You don't get to play in there do you?
No.
But with toilets it's like that whole look about if the toilets are crap then what's
the hygiene like almost? It's almost like if the toilets aren't very good well you know
what's going on behind the scenes.
Yeah yeah absolutely if you've got 70s tiles still on the toilet walls then what's in the
kitchen because that is not what you want.
How gross is it going to be?
Yeah absolutely.
But yeah no I think yeah toilets I always say unless somebody comes out of the toilets
and says have you seen the toilets I haven't done my job properly.
Yeah I totally agree.
That's got to happen.
Yeah and I think recently with clients because back like five eight years ago they were definitely
where the budgets were cut and focus it elsewhere but recently that I think they've caught on
on the fact that actually the toilets are just as important and if they're clean and
tidy and functional as well as the design factor everybody appreciates it more so yeah
I'd definitely say have a look at the toilets because if they look horrible that's what
people are going to remember even if the rest of it is all lovely.
So Erin is here today to educate us about pub design.
As best I can.
I'll probably put in a little bit as well because I've done a lot of pubs and I'm really
looking forward to hearing some of the things like some of your experience as well because
obviously I've done some pubs but I think you do more pubs than me and you work with
a lot of the big pub groups on a regular basis where I sort of dipped in and out of that
and I've done a lot of independent so I'm quite interested to see what the difference
is.
Yeah I mean I've been quite lucky over the years because I've been doing this for now
over 10 years and when I first came into it I didn't quite realise how much of a community
the hospitality industry was and it is very much a community and yeah it's the people
you know and the way that the pubs work and function and it definitely helps that I did
work in a pub for five years through college and uni so I've been behind the bar.
That is so important isn't it.
I have worked with designers before who were like oh no I've got no interest in doing stuff
like that and I'm like how can you not want to do that like I really want to go in and
go can I just work in here for a day just so I can design it a bit better.
As long as you can still pull a pint then you're good.
Erin what do you think the most important elements of pub design are?
Well I think with pub design the main focus and the heart of every site should be and
is the bar.
The bar is where you're selling the product and you're wanting everybody to buy really
so your customer journey needs to be taking you to that heart of the pub so I would say
from entering the pub if you can see the bar fantastic if you can't you need to direct
people towards that because that is your selling point so at all times I mainly work for brewers
they want their badges to be seen because that is what they're selling they're keeping
their brewery going as well so that's how I would say the heart of the pub is the bar.
Cool so what would you design around the bar so you've got like the bar is the focal point
where you go first and then what other areas of a pub would you do you have like different
zones because a lot of the pub groups have different zones don't they what are the zones
that you do?
I mean it's interesting really because I think it's a lot of pub design has developed a lot
over since Covid and everybody had to sit down and it's kind of morphed into this different
type of experience so I've got a lot of previous history of how every just you want everyone
to walk up to the bar but now you can have a mixture of both so whether or not you are
going up to a stand to be greeted by someone to be sat down or if they still want the traditional
pub walk up to the bar be served and then sit down so I think with different brands
is a different element of a journey so in a traditional pub your journey would be coming
through from the entrance to see the bar if it's available and within that pub layout
so you could walk over to that so you'd have mid-height furniture which we've been using
a lot more over the last few years because it's not posable it's comfortable like dining
areas so we use that so that then they're still comfortable when people are walking
past and then off of that bar then you go into dining areas or sports areas depending
on if they've got a large sports viewing or if there's pool tables or dart sports which
we'd always try and keep close enough to the bar but separate so that females as well even
if they do love sports they don't always want to walk into a sports area so then they can
go off into the dining area or join the sports so I'd say there's definitely layout choices
depending on the client with some of sort of more sports led it is going to be sports
darts pool table in one area and then dining in the other but at all points the bar is
still the heart of that so then you kind of brand off of it so that's the the heart of
the body and then the rest of it sort of branches off from that so that's how I would view it
but yeah.
Do you think that there's like this there's a big thing about sort of men and women because
there's because when I was working for Green King there was a lot of talk about kind of
well we want to bring women back in into the pubs and and it was really funny for me because
I'm like well don't women feel comfortable in pubs? And Ash what's your experience of
that?
I think it's a mixture it definitely is the clientele for that area because you can get
some like bistro pubs which it's going to be dog walkers as well so there's a mixture
there's going to have men and women there but we definitely do see in more of the sports
led that is male dominating so you're looking at like 80% drinking over 20% food but if
you're looking at 80% food over 20% dining you're going to be over 20% drink sorry you're
going to be looking more towards the female for some reason the softer the more comfortable
and the sports led always is harder.
I don't necessarily think it is just men and women but it is just sort of the the natural
my husband goes off and watches for I don't tend to do that when I go to the pub I go
to have a bottle of wine and a lot of my friends are the same so it is kind of just the way
that we are. I think it still even though everything is more equal than it used to be
if a woman walks into a pub that they're all rowdy men contractors not to have an issue
of contractors in the family they're going to feel uncomfortable so keeping that sort
of separate dependent on clientele is important.
So having like so if you've got like different kinds I mean my local pub for example has
got like one area where all the contractors go yeah which has got like a wooden floor
and a pool table and a jukebox and dartboard and then the other bit is more loungy more
restauranty and it's got a carpet and it's softer so is that quite important in most
pubs to do that?
Just to ensure that everybody that goes in there is comfortable because I'm sure everybody
has one local pub where women won't go into it because as soon as they go in all of the
regulars look at them and it's very uncomfortable so we have a lot of the large brewers and
companies that I work with we don't want that we want to make sure that everybody any person
is comfortable when they walk in so from entrance rather than having that straight away impact
of sports male dominated no we want that to be sort of the transitional area so a bit
of both so that we can all mingle together which is fine because a lot of mixed groups
that do go in but so that then females don't feel uncomfortable coming in but also on the
flip side if it is too feminine it also is not inviting to the males so it's yeah it's
just finding that balance really that that entrance area is an important thing to think
of if you've got an area for men or men and women but sports mainly off to the left and
then dining and if you need it to be family friendly as well off to another side so you've
got a clear comfortable walkway through to be able to choose what way you want to go
to where you want to either view TVs or have dinner with your family or drinks with the
ladies which if there's a cocktail section fantastic yeah.
Have you come across much we sort of briefly touched on toilets have you come across much
sort of the gender neutral thing because we're starting in the industry to kind of like really
you know you need a DDA gender neutral some people are just going all out gender neutral
toilets some people are like no way the women won't go in the men's or you know they don't
want to some some people are saying that women are way worse than men in terms of tidiness
and I've seen that for myself there have one site I have up north once we kitted out the
ladies toilets so lovely it had this beautiful wallpaper in all the cubicles at the six months
defect out of the eight cubicles six of them had had the wallpaper peeled off in the cubicles
because they had a bet going and in the gents nothing had been touched it was as if we had
just done it so the ladies were worse in that sense than the men like 100% and we'd done
theirs even prettier and lovely but they had a bet going to he who could get the most wallpaper
off in one go which was so bizarre never seen that before but yeah I think but gender neutral
in pubs I've all the pubs that I've done have gone absolutely no way I've not seen it go
into a pub yet really and nor has the discussion for that DDA toilets is a must-have the only
instance is when we haven't been able to put that in as if it's a listed building and structurally
there is just no way without causing damage to that pub if you're working on a pub that
isn't listed doesn't have a DDA it really needs to have a DDA toilet everybody needs to be able
to go to the toilet and I think that is the definite in pubs the unisex toilets I've had
that in a calf once but that's because they were limited on space so they had five sets of unisex
toilets but that was a calf that was not a pub and I don't see it being done in a pub anytime soon
maybe a bistro pub or something that's trying to be a bit different but a traditional pub
I would say no they would want to keep that separate I did the White Heart in West Mersey
recently and they've I think they've gone for a bit of everything yeah they've gone for gender
neutral and male and female yeah and because the guy who owns it I also own the Church Street Tavern
and Colchester and they they've got quite a few gender neutral toilets in there yeah but yeah
but yeah no that was quite a thing for them yeah and that's that's a pub but it doesn't really look
like a pub anymore it's more of a bistro restaurant a bistro restaurant yeah which I tell yeah yeah
yeah I think traditional pubs and also because a lot of the time these projects are budget led
and if you've got existing toilets existing gents existing ladies it's going to cost more
to rearrange that to make it into unisex than it is to just refer what you've got as existing
so it's funny isn't it some there a lot of the time they're like either side of the bar as well
like they're not together yeah that's so frustrating and a lot of the time I've had that on a recent
one in Stockfold where the gents toilet was in the ladies sort of dining area so that then all of the
men had to come from the sports area which we were discussing before the right hand side of the pub
was gents and the left hand side family and dining and the gents had to go from the darts area all the
way through to go to the other end of the dining so in that factor we actually did you swap them
yeah we used the budget in the right way to make sure that that was the right way around because
it just wasn't working in this dining area if you've got men going out for fags and then going to
toilet and it just doesn't give the right vibe but you do have to work with what you've got
I think unisex toilets could work in the future I don't think men are as as dirty as you would
maybe think they would be all of the gents toilets other than the smell are normally just as clean as
the ladies they do say I have been in way too many gents toilets so bad isn't it like yeah yeah and
always that dreaded having to go in and take photos after four work purposes to look at the tiles
um to knock on the door and just check that there's no men in the urinals because that's never
happened to me touch wood to this day and I do not want that to ever happen I think the other thing
with the toilets is is that that with urinals you can actually get more toilets in for a space
and that works really well in terms of maximizing the space yeah whereas you don't you know you
can't do that with a woman's toilet so it's kind of like how do you how yeah changing it is more
yeah more expensive which I guess is a good point as well for anybody that is looking to change
toilets or alter it it's definitely worth looking at building regulations because for pubs and
restaurants and bars you need to have a certain percentage of urinals and sit downs for the gents
and to the ladies depending on the percentage of male and female in that pub so if somebody's
going to knock out some toilets and theirs definitely look into how many you need to put
back in because you could be in trouble if you decide to drop out two urinals and you're not
covering the amount of people that are in that pub because the amount of times I've done the
maths on that just to check we can actually do it because that will bite you in the butt otherwise
it's section m isn't it of the building control good memory I think it might be yeah yeah I'm
not sure good memory yeah no I think it's section m or you just you would just consult with um
building control officer wouldn't you yeah if you can do it if in doubt keep what's there as
you system as the best you can um and if you can't like you said contact somebody from building
control to advise you on what you can and can't do um because you don't want to be tripped up
or something like that and having to redo it which is not good for anybody no
welcome back to the interior design podcast hello there um we've just been talking about how we're
both from Essex yes though if you don't like an Essex accent it's not that it's not the same for
you and so Erin I'm going to question um if somebody's designing their own pub and they
can't afford to use a designer they don't want to and they've got a bit of an there's no flair
what would you say were the most important things that they need to consider when they're designing
their own pub I think the difference with pub design in comparison to maybe like restaurants
or other sort of more modern buildings pubs traditionally I would work with the existing
fabric of the building so if you've got a lovely pub it's going to have columns beams and keep the
structure of it the same because that is the personality of that building and I think that's
one of the reasons I love working with pubs because you can morph your design around what's
there which is fun in my eyes I think that's a great thing to be able to do so if you've got
your entrance but you've got this column that you're not too sure about but you can't take it away
because the roof will fall down um use that put something around it mesh planting artwork wallpaper
make it a good thing of the pub rather than trying to take it away when you can't physically do that
and I think especially I've worked on quite a lot of um listed buildings in the past and I think
that's been rammed into my head because of that with if you've got a listed building grade two
I've only ever worked on one grade one um which was quite interesting you could say um you can't
change the fabric of the building without getting permission so it's a challenge to work around what
you've got as existing but if you try and have fun with that and try and use it to your advantage so
yes that column or that beam or we've we've um put planting over things that other people try and
ignore and not not have there but that's the best thing of the pub isn't it that it is existing
pubs are traditional and yeah I could go on a tangent of how pubs are the best design that
you could do because it's the British history isn't it yeah I think it's really fascinating
how pubs have like the journey of pubs over the years because you've had it's where people gather
yeah like it's always been where people gather and like even some you know now some pubs are
getting turned into Indian restaurants but people are still gathering yeah there you know and it's
all kind of morphed into something different but the traditional pub is supposed to have
wonky walls and absolutely columns and things in funny places because it's been added to for so many
so many times over the last hundred years and all probably hundred years they they get absolutely I
think that if you if I work into a pub as a brief and I see beams or I see just the original bones
of it it that excites me I find that quite fun to play with rather than having just an empty box
because they're I always think they're most challenging so actually look at your pub see
what you've got and think we can use this column or beams or anything like that to make an area
out of this and then add a screen in or something to make that element you can't remove something
that's good because that's the great thing about pubs I think that you can change your floor finish
and everything like that but you can't change the bones so you've got the bones of the building
which is the skeleton we've got the heart which is the bar and then everything else that's coming
off of it you're building like it is a person in that pub I guess but I'm a bit passionate about it
so it's lovely and I was working with one of the big pub groups a few years ago and we designed
a template for 250 pubs I can't remember what what they thought it was called but one of the
things that we really focused on in that template was the soul of the pub yeah and this and this
sort of what makes that pub yeah what it is and it would it would be different in every single
place you go because it's like the soul of it's like a community isn't it yeah I think that's the
challenge so we're working on a brand at the moment where we lead designers and we did it
in the first pub which was a certain shape certain size and then to put that design into other pubs
is the challenge that's where us as designers come in to help with that space planning more with
templates because it's not a one-off you've got to do what you've done on this other site which is
only 50 covers 50 people that can sit and dine in there in comparison to 100 so it's a challenge on
our part but you again you can have fun with that and sort of area the way that you want it to be
but I think if you've got a one-off just have fun with your pub basically and don't just push the
boundaries as best you can because at the end of the day it's not the best thing to have to redecorate
a wall but it is just redecorating a wall so if you want to push boundaries and try I would say
do it because the worst that's going to happen is that you're going to have to paint over it again
but at least you've tried because otherwise you'll never push boundaries to see how great your
original idea would have been I think one of the things that I'd probably say is that you
you want to look at the local community and like almost tap into what's that about like things like
art and you know if you've got local artists or like that kind of thing I think that if you
if you tap into that community that's what will draw people in absolutely it's site specific
isn't it yeah definitely and that's kind of what I do when I'm doing a project is kind of really
try and go what's the personality of this place like what goes on here and you know who's
who's standing at the bar do we need like a chair for bob who's always there you know and
and that kind of thing and just making sure that you're accommodating the end user yeah absolutely
because I think one of the first things we do on a brief on any of these projects is speak to the
person that's running it and a lot of the time that gets sort of gets overlooked and it shouldn't
so if it's not been if they've not been included within the brief I'll always have a chat with the
person that's running it at that time because they will tell you the ins and outs of what the
issues are what people are coming in now if you need to change it to a new clientele that will
also help you with that too because you'll know if there's dodgy people coming in from so and so but
they will congregate around this area so how can we make this area better and how can we draw the
right people into here but I think that is something that's always kind of as a as a project team
we need to deliver something they need to run it so we can deliver the best thing ever but without
that person running it it's never it's not going to work it can't be a successful business yeah
yeah you always say that that you you there's three elements to a hospitality business
there's the design which we can do there's the service and then there's the offering like the
food or the drink and and if you you get all three right you've got a successful business yeah but
the frustrating thing for us is like we can get one third of it right and make that look beautiful
but you've got you've got to have the rest of it you know and absolutely that's where we trust the
clients doing what they're doing right because I don't envy anyone trying to recruit because I'm
all for the pretty bits but recruiting staff and everything is a whole kettle of fish really yeah
take my hat off to everyone who runs a pub a lot of my family have run pubs yeah so yeah they know
how hard work it is yeah how much hard work it is yeah absolutely but I think the design side of
things is just have fun with what you're doing if you're working for a client listen to your client
and also I think what is also overlooked as probably one of the most important cogs in the
whole situation is the contractor as a designer I'm not embarrassed to say I will take their advice
if they're advising me on something and they know more about it than I do I will take their advice
and I will draw up my detail and say this is what I want and if they say but you're going to get
from A to B a lot quicker if we do it this way fantastic thank you of course less yeah
yes or yeah collaborate with them work with them they know what they're talking about too hopefully
a lot of the contractors I work with do know what they're talking about and we trust each other and
we have that great relationship so trust their experience and use it to your advantage because
I use that all the time I will detail everything up if they say oh that's fabulous I'm like brilliant
great job I didn't need your help but if I do need their help then take it there's we're a team at
the end of the day that's the way I like to look at it that Clive and us as designers contractors
QS everybody within making that project work is a team we all want the same outcome so work together
yeah I used to work on the manufacturing side so I used to work for a manufacturer who built bars
and waiter stations and things and I used to work with a lot of designers and that was my biggest
thing was a lot of designers used to be I want it how I want it and I don't care how much it costs
and it'd be like well actually if I make it out of this material instead of that material it's
going to cost you less because I've got that in stock and I've paid I've bought that in bulk so
I can get that at a better cost yeah and that kind of thing and I think I think you have to
consult with the contractors to get the best result because of that and the best price yeah
and I think in hospitality a lot of these pub sites whether or not it's a full refurbishment
or if it's a sparkle they're quick jobs so we've got sites that are three weeks full refurbishment
pergola outside toilets being done if I'm honest I have no idea how the guys actually pull it off
I would not be able to do it myself there's no denying that I can hardly decorate my living room
in three weeks so work with them in the hospitality industry in pubs and restaurants it's so fast pace
if they've got a better a to b than you don't be too proud because all it's going to do is trip
everybody up so work with them and I think they always appreciate it more they might talk behind
the mac who knows I'm a designer so but I think all in all they would like it more as well if you
work with them yeah for sure so yeah obviously don't let them change your design I think that's a
given as a designer you want it how you want it but if they've got an easier way to do it more
cost-effective quicker way to do it work with them so we touched on accessibility earlier
and I'd like to sort of expand on that I used to know a lady who was
the owner of a company called draft who was a charity for disabled people and she said to me
that 30 percent of the trade 30 percent of people who go out and eat are disabled or they know or
they're very close to somebody who's disabled or with limited ability so if you have a pub or a
restaurant that is accessible and that you're not making it difficult for it to be accessible
because there's legislation and there's there's making it easy yeah you will increase your
business by 30 percent absolutely and what's your take on that I think you want everything
every person should have the ability to have the same experience as everyone else I think that
disabled people people with pushchairs as well because a lot of time if there aren't ramps
there's a lot of steps it's also difficult for families to get in and out so I think trying to
make it as easy as possible for everyone to experience the same thing is the end goal
I think it's absolutely a must have and I most of my clients feel the same way as well so any
way that they can to improve that for the customers like putting ramps in the front section or making
sure that they have access to the garden the only issues that we have is normally enlisted
buildings but there's always ways around it and also planners do also want the same thing
they do so work with them to get that it would just be a longer process you'll have to do drawings
and details and whatnot but they also want that to be accessible for everybody so I would absolutely
say if you don't have a ddo toilet if you don't have a ramp to get inside you need to be thinking
about how to do that and how to to make it so everyone can enjoy it basically and I think it's
from from a business perspective yeah it's the right thing to do in terms of profitability as
well like you can make sure that if Aunt Nellie's coming out for dinner with the family of 10 we've
got to go somewhere that's accessible you're going to get that family of 10 come to you if you if you
if you've got that accessibility yeah and I think some some situations where we've been tripped up
in the past is that we've got dining spaces but then as I said before mid-type furniture works
really well to give like an in-betweeny between comfortable but also not so far down that you're
sitting on a dining table just be very aware of the fact that disabled people can't sit at those
so we got tripped up once before where we had two of those within the dining area we ended up swapping
them out for dining tables so that there was more options for the staff to be able to seat
people that were in a wheelchair which at the time of drawing you're thinking about how it works
people walking past it so yeah we we get tripped up as well and then we get reminded on making sure
that you do have enough dining tables for people to sit at because we can get ramps in do the toilets
but if you don't have anywhere for them to go so there's no spare tables then you're kind of
tripped up on that as well so just be aware of I suppose like the way to kind of stop being tripped
up on that is to ask someone like if you're in a if you're in a pub and you're designing it yourself
if you've got customers who have got limited abilities then ask you know ask them and say
what do you need and what what can we do and sometimes if you haven't got the space to do a
disabled toilet you can just put some accessible things into a toilet you might not have the space
to do I mean you need a 1500 turning circle don't you for a disabled toilet with a
wheelchair yeah and the door needs to be larger as well so there's a lot of factors to but if
you're in a listed building and you can't necessarily do that or you haven't got the funds or you know
you know it's not practical to do that you can still have a sink with a lever on it and a handle
with a lever on it you can have the door opening outwards yeah you can have bars you can have a
sink in the toilet you know and all of those things it's not just people I'm a massive advocate of
like disabled toilets because it's not just people in wheelchairs who use them it's people with
coloscopy bags yeah I'm not even going to try and say it I know what you mean as well and but you
know they need a sink because they need to empty the bag and clean themselves and there's people
who got you know visually impaired so they need to have those things and I just think that that so
many people go oh we haven't got room for a disabled toilet and they just don't do anything
yeah I think that it's good it's really really important to have that nod absolutely I think in
today's day and age everybody is very much of an equal we want everyone to be the same so if you're
not giving them the options of being able to like you say get to a sink without having to be in a
public space almost because it is in a toilet if you've got a full toilet that's not very nice
things for you to have to do you just want to make it equal for everybody really yeah sorry I
went off on a little run yeah I forgot what my brain was trying to say um I wanted to ask you
about your take on alcohol because oh I think that the fact that people are drinking less
has had an effect on pubs it's your take on it interesting I must admit I think because my
generation we are definitely still drinkers for sure but you do see more young people
the millennium yeah through lockdown and their socializing is so different to what our socializing
was back then um that the young places they need activities like a beer pong table or something for
them to stay whereas when we went out to bars and things like that you would just be going there for
the drinks so and I definitely think there's also going down the route of the zero percent um
people are a lot more sensible than they used to be um it's interesting I don't think alcohol's
ever going to stop in the UK I think beers and ales and everything like that is still very strongly
led but also yeah we we did put in one of our projects we did have one of them cocktail pumps
and it didn't actually go down as well as we thought it would um because people like to see
your cocktail get made yeah so then that also is the difference whereas I see people who are
some people would like it as quick as possible but actually we found no they like to see that
cocktail get made and all of the bits and bobs get put into it I mean I am a drinker so I
can't say too much about it really I'd like a bottle of wine I think you're right though you've
touched on like um the competitive socializing thing haven't you because there's a massive
industry where there's acts throwing and darts yeah the interactive darts which should be that
would be a thing yeah and there's so much of that that's coming through and that they're going into
pubs aren't they yeah um yeah yes it's really interesting how how the yeah how the social scene
is changing definitely especially in student areas like the student pubs the pubs that we work on in
student areas are very different to what we do elsewhere and that's because we needed a gathering
spot but for them to do stuff at the same time um which wasn't so much of the priority I don't
think even five years ago wasn't so much the priority because they would then go off to cups
now we want to keep them in that pub so to keep them in that pub you give them the same thing a
club can do or yeah just keep them busy really whilst they're drinking um but I can't say I've
actually done one of the interactive darts since putting them in the pubs however much I could have
fun with that was shuffleboards as well which we've been putting in I have played on a shuffleboard
that is a bit fun but yeah I need to do that look on the bucket list shuffleboard
yeah they take up a lot of room but they are fun
okay so next question how would you advise someone to use colour
interesting I think um colour is so important within a pub the decorations can make or break
the atmosphere that you put into a pub for sure if you're looking for an area that feels more
comfortable and cozy then you want to be like be bold use them dark colours on the ceilings on the
walls like patterned wallpapers on the walls as well but if you're looking for something that is
more airy than light colours and then have a pop of like teal or pink or orange and just be bold
with it and if your bar which is the heart of the bar which I keep saying um if that is already
decorated then choose your colour wisely because that is what's going to draw the eye so if you
want it to be muted it's not going to be seen as much so we've been putting in mustards and
and brighter colours onto the bar because that is where we want to draw the eye and also follow
fashions because they change so frequently if you look at five years ago stuff red started coming
back in again and there was greys everywhere and that's not the case at the moment so just
look into what's working in that area and what type of fill you want and what type of reference
house you want to use because my friend is definitely pinterest and I'm sure a lot of
designers say the same get those images down have a look at what it looks like and be bold
I would say be brave yeah dark colours I think are working fabulously at the moment
and I think dark colours on the ceiling in the right location are great they give a different
feel altogether they could change the vibe of that pub completely yeah but then on the flip
side if you think you've made a mistake and it's your pub at the end of the day it's one
it's just paint there's no walls that have come down for it so it is just paint so it can be
painted over if you need to go back to something else with colour the choice of colour is different
to what you'd use in your home if you're using light blues and cold colours in your home that
might feel quite cold in a pub it might not so it just use it again working with the fabric of the
building but if you're using musters which is all happy and cheerful in my view you could use that
in your home but in a pub it's going to give off a different vibe isn't it but and pinks are
coming into pubs a lot more and I love it I think it is feminine but men love it too so it's a lovely
colour and the sort of dried plaster look is I'm all for that but yeah just using the right colours
for what you want red is warm in I would feel when the pub sort of side of things and if you're going
to put in black use it sparingly or depending on how you want to yeah what vibe you want to give it
yeah what vibe you want to give off for sure black black beams I've done black ceiling before but
that's because we had cable trays all the way along we wanted just to hide the ceiling so it
was a really tall ceiling so we just blacked it all out you can do that tall ceiling can't it doesn't
really bring it down does it yeah and that it did work because it hid everything
but it was black on the ceiling which is quite a lot I wanted to ask you about lighting what's
your take on lighting in a pub it's funny because as every as you think of everything
separately you think it's most important for sure and with lighting lighting is very important and
also how you control that lighting because in pubs I think wall lights are a must they make sure that
the lighting comes a little bit lower if you're trying to make it look even more intimate use
table lamps and standard lamps because then that pulls the light down more as well I do think
you want to be careful with how it's dimmed as well because I find we put in these lovely pendants
and it works with the it's not filament anymore because everything's led but that sort of warm
glowy lamp but if you've got somebody turning it down too low it's going to make everybody's eyes
squint so if there's a dimmer pack just make sure it's set at a point and put a little line if it's
one of the controlled ones and put a little line and where it needs to go and make sure you do that
at hand over so that then they know that's where it needs to be because otherwise you'll get it
really dark or on cleaner mode which is just everything as bright as anything and that changes
the vibe completely I think that's one thing that I see a lot of is that people don't get that
level and it's either too bright or too dark and I think the other way you could do it is on a
dimmer system so you have it all automatically set yeah day and night I think it's tiger mode
packs that I've used in the past which basically are just a button so you have like one two three
four and then that's cleaner mode morning mode day mode even and I've been on site for 15 hours
before setting that because it was in the peak of summer so I had to be there at the beginning
and there was very specific what they wanted so every few hours I had to say okay let's now
set the scene and set the scene up to that so let's drop it 10% and so you do need to make sure
that you've got the right electrician to be able to do that as well because they need to be able to
code it properly which I've been shown how it works before I cannot remember for the life of me so
but it is important and for that client especially in the evenings they wanted a mode
to be able to go from like standard evening to like intimate evening which I think we dropped it
down to like 20% and without the lamps that we had which were suitable which are leds
that wouldn't have been possible so also be very careful with what lamps you're using because that
will affect how far down your lights can go because if they're not the suitable leds to dimming
they'll flicker and then your issue will just be flickering lights so you have to have it higher
yeah yeah good advice thanks I really I really like using led strips like hidden led strips in
pubs because I think it just really creates a real intimate vibe and things like under the bar you
have to hide them though like oh it's my bugbear to see like little dots yeah absolutely and you
can actually see them you have to hide them behind something but yeah I think it just really does
things like back bar lighting and front bar lighting things like that I think it just really
gives it a good touch especially if you've got a really cool bar like an old kind of intricate
wooden bar or something like that I think that could be and you want to sell the product so as
as designers of the pub I don't get I don't get involved too much with what product they use
but you need to showcase it because if someone is going to be like oh my god I'm going to be
like okay so I'm going to showcase it because if someone walks if you want them to walk up to the
bar and see something and buy it then it needs to be lit up in the right way so always have
spotlights behind your bar shining down onto the product that they want to be selling because
there's nothing worse than going into the bar and squinting and not being able to see what's over
there we a lot of the time put in illuminated bottle steps I think that's almost just a standard
must-have in every bar that we do because it just gives that glow and again highlights what
you want to sell so and the led strips I'm a big fan and they've got color changing as well so
that's also a lot of fun it's good for things like football seasons yeah that you can change
the color for whatever whatever time of year is yeah absolutely absolutely and it's selling
what you want them to sell so as designers they want to sell product they if they are drinks led
pub their product is the most important thing if it's food as well then obviously that that's not
that's very much with the brand and and what they're doing for food but we can help sell the
products because we can illuminate it in the right way like you said so that then you can
put led strips on it or just draw the attention over there so that is their selling point that's
what they want to sell so focus on that not too much though don't go overboard
yeah that brings me nicely on to bar design oh yes fun one yeah um what would be your advice on
bar design so bar design is an interesting one very much speak to your client what does your
client want to gain from that bar um I've designed and drawn up a lot of bar details in the past and
if they need an ice well underneath that impacts the products you can put on the front if they need
to have a tall bottle fridge where does it need to be your client knows what they want to sell
use them to tell you what is needed and then use that in your design because with I could absolutely
draw five bar designs completely different but they might be better for different clients so
they need to instruct you on exactly what they need to gain from it and whether or not they want
to have a traditional one to counter so that's the brown board so timber underneath which would be a
traditional bar or if they want to go to more bar so more drinks bar which is stainless steel
so cost wise it's a lot more expensive but if they're doing cocktails and speed drinks for a
high drinking site it's very beneficial to go into stainless steel we don't do that very often it's a
lot more expensive it's not a traditional option but in bars it is so like drinking bars it is a
good route to go down because they've got like cocktail rails and speed rails and things to help
them and it's all in one hit so if you're designing a bar you can either have it so that it's a
the timber top and timber front and then open underneath for you to be able to have stainless steel
or a traditional bar would be that you've got partitions all underneath that bar counter so
that then you've got shelving throughout so it's completely two different ways to design a bar so
you need to know exactly what they want to gain from selling product at that bar you could get a
lot of advice from people as well though like with the stainless steel there's companies that do that
for a living so get advice and work with them i've only done one of those before and it was quite
expensive but it fit in perfectly under the bar and they built it to the tee so we just did one
for Chelmsford Theatre last year interesting and they had like five or five stations yeah so
and that's what kind of one of the things i always focus on is the stations like one person has got
to serve and they need to i think what you've got to think about is they need to move as little as
possible so they can do their job properly yeah and so if they can stand in one place and serve
drinks and use the till and not have to walk very far yeah like whereas if you've got gin on one
side and tonic on the other side yeah that's just completely not practical exactly um so the
ergonomics of like what you're what you're actually what someone's actually doing is
behind that bar is so important absolutely yeah 100% because there you need to look at it as if
you are in that bar working and if it's not practical then you've not done the job properly
it needs to be practical they need to use it there's a funny thing with design is that obviously
you want it all to be about the design but if it's not functional then that's a failed design so you
need to have a really good balance on that it works both ways and and just for the sake of
um and just for information in case people don't know about bars you need to have a wash hand sink
basin in there and um a slop sink that's a must have you need to have two sinks behind it if you've
got a glass wash then that might have a sink alongside it but just for anybody that doesn't
know put sinks behind your bar they need it just the two just stop sinking a wash hand basin
is a must have behind a bar um it's needed i think with things like glass washers and stuff like that
you need to put glass washers where the drinks are cleared to in the bar and things like that isn't
yeah and also if you've got if you've got a coffee machine on the back fitting which is
a sort of standard practice really it's got to go somewhere if it's not got its own station elsewhere
put that in the dining end don't put that in sports ends the people in sports end don't want
a coffee so very much design it where you want to be selling it so your back bar yeah your back bar
you are limited on space so let's prioritise what goes where coffee needs to go in the dining area
where it's going to sell because it's pointless putting it in the sports area they're not going
to be interested um unless it's one in the morning they need a high pass for coffee
yeah yeah yeah well um what's your take on tills because i have this conversation with a lot of
people like and a lot of people go i must have the till on the back bar oh and i know right and
i've just had my client in limbopole street put the tills on the back bar and i'm going client
facing like client facing you have to have them on the front and they they're like no no no we have
to have them in the back so what that's what you're nodding saying no put them on the front right
definitely i i personally think your client your customer wants to see you and if they're handing
over their card they want to see you so i would absolutely always put on the front bar i'd understand
it because product on the front bar is a priority but i also think the biggest priority is your
your customer so i definitely think it's bizarre putting them on the back fitting and it's not very
tidy not very neat it's not a selling point so i wouldn't i wouldn't personally put it on the back
but i think as well for ergonomics because you're doing the till and then you're doing the drink
you're not kind of turning around and turning back and backwards and forwards and it's just
it doesn't make sense yeah absolutely i think the products on the bar it's obviously your hand pulls
and your tea bars and all of that but i think the selling the gins and the vodkas and the whiskies
and stuff like that on the back that's what they want to be looking at not at the till and then
seeing that the oh that person's name is so and so and you can see yeah they don't need to see that
yeah they did they and even that with tills you see a lot of the time that then surrounds got put
into a lot of tills on the front counter i don't like that i'm not a fan of that just have the nice
clean countertop within the till screen sitting on top and then everything else hidden below
so not a cutout not a cutout i'm not a fan of the cutout but that's just because it's so
it's so definite whereas look at the nice smooth bar top with then a till on the top
lovely but with a surround it's very much where this is a till location which it is but you don't
need to shout about it it's a function yeah yeah but yeah i'll definitely put it on the front
noted
so short break there welcome back to the interior design podcast um erin is kindly educating us all
about design and i'm putting my 10th and 15th too um next question what about flooring so as i've
said before every aspect seems to be really important and i i'm surprised we've left floor
until now to be honest because i actually think that's so um underrated people don't notice the
flooring so much but you can direct people with it um so as i've said before with the customer
journey if you're going from the entrance and you want them to walk to the bar tiled bar walk all
the way up to it that instantly gives people a pathway to get to that bar if you've not done
that and there's that just timber everywhere then you've not got like a clear direction
so you can use flooring to your advantage absolutely if you've got a dining area you need
it to be softer carpet i'm not the biggest fan of carpets they're so hard to choose they're
especially pub carpets they make me cry yeah absolutely there's never a perfect carpet for
a pub it's they all look fairly traditional but um you can find some so yeah carpets in the softer
areas and then absolutely must have hard floor in any drinking area or sports area um be careful
with what site you've got because they could be quite echoey i've had that in the past where it's
a definite rectangle and we've had to put rugs down um just to soften that so if you've got
issues with acoustics curtains blinds use fabric on chairs to try and knock out some of that like
echoing around um but yeah i think flooring is quite important and what kind of flooring would
you put generally in a pub timber if i could a lot of the time we use carndine as well so carndine
is definitely a go-to now they've got a great range um i'm not a seller of carndine i just like them
um i'm a massive fan of carndine yeah i think it's easy to put in as well and you can have a you need
to make sure you have a ply base but then that makes it level and then yeah then it works quite
well so i'll put timber floor in you can also get acoustic backed carndine as well if you've got
problems with sound absolutely yeah absolutely and then if you've got existing timber um just
lightly sand and restain or if you've got on if you've got a budget but you want to do real timber
engineered boards that will still be thick enough so that you can do a few sands over the next 10
years or so um just yeah i would say an engineered board or carndine is what we put in mainly if we
have the budget to use hardwood throughout we all would but it's all budget led um i would also say
i very much like a tire bar walk around um the bar i think it gives it a sort of like oomph that is
separate from everywhere else but if you look in a lot of country dog walking pubs there's a lot of
the time it's just timber everywhere and then that's that aesthetic so stick with your clientele what
works with that clientele if it's not a jazzy tiled floor don't put it in so work with what works for
the building um and outro floor in the disabled toilet is a must um i think that's some regulation
or possibly on that one or the vinyls slip ratings the regulation yeah start on 12 isn't it i think
so yeah yeah and that's a really good point about slip rating if you've got any high traffic areas
check your slip rating if it's a domestic tile don't use it use commercial tiles it's that they
are commercial for a reason so you need to make sure that people aren't slipping over or falling
over um and entrance matting is always a win because that is gonna stop it getting wet everywhere
else but yeah check your slip rating because you want it to have a higher slip rating um cover
yourself for sure amazing and furniture we haven't talked about very much either we haven't have we
it's yeah what would be your advice on furniture um depending on budget uh if you've got a lot of
existing i think previously you've spoken people about reusing um like items you can reuse refurbish
furniture for sure get it all picked up there's a lot of furniture companies that do do that and
then reupholster um i think just use your areas quite wisely when you're sorting out your initial
layout where is your dining height furniture where is your poser height furniture and then
we've been using a lot of mid height as well it's just the in between transitional areas not sure
it's it's it's too um high traffic for dining so put in a mid then it makes people comfortable
still they're not down in dining height when people are walking through them um and also
feature bits like fixed seating and banquet seating um wherever you can if you've got a dining area
you don't want it to look like canteen so use your area to if there's a length of fixed seating so
you can have a nice fabric on the back fantastic put that in because that can give you flexibility
of putting the tables next to each other but also gives you a feature um because otherwise you're
going to end up with a canteen that has just loads of furniture loose within it so zone areas for
sure so on the seat of the fixed seating you'd put like a faux leather or something like that
would you yeah faux or real leather tough yeah hard wearing you need it to be i think it's over 100
um i've forgotten the word rub test martindale rub test yeah and also everything within a um
within the commercial it needs to be fire rated as well so don't use domestic fabrics
use commercial fabrics they're again there for a reason so and they've got the rub tests as well
so check the rub test if it's over 100 000 brilliant if it's lower use it sparingly but on
the backs of chairs i've put some 30 000 in before because they're pretty um but don't use it places
that people are going to sit down it's going to wear really quickly so use the right fabrics for
the right areas so that's a really good point i've done a podcast with them james from sunbury fabrics
which have been released yet um which will have been released by the time this one comes out
um so if anyone's interested in upholstery fabrics we are going to be doing a curtain
fabric one as well so all of the bs standards are all going to be in that fantastic and they've got
quite a lot of the um i forget what it's called but the stain resistant ones which i will say to
sunbury are good because the aqua clean they are they they could almost have a bomb hit them and
they will last and not i haven't tried and tested all of them but i can say that the ones where i've
had a few stains on it and they can be soaked and watered off so it's it's got like a vinyl on the
back not that i'm selling them but there's like a vinyl on the back so that it doesn't seep in and
the stain doesn't stay so yeah definitely um think about what fabrics you're using for sure
and styles of furniture if you're going to use 1940s chairs that's very traditional
pub furniture um if you're going to use modern stuff again just think of your clientele who's
going to be going in there colors of furniture too um so we could go on a long tangent i want to do
but if you're using like the light colors um that's going to be more dining a little bit more
um scandinavian and modern if you're using mid oak dark oak that is more traditional pub so and also
don't be afraid of using some paint on your furniture if you can do some rubbed off chairs
here or there that gives it breaks it up a little bit as well you can refurbish stuff can't you
it's like you can take a table that's an old-fashioned pub furniture table old-fashioned
table yeah um and you can paint just the base can't you and then change the top and just put a new
top on it and just completely refurbish it those bases are really expensive and actually most of
them are really good quality yeah um massive hammer yeah the other the other thing i'm a fan of is
putting a pose like poser table near the bar because a lot of people gather at the bar don't
they so if you've got a poser table just off the bar that kind of stops that crowd at the bar so
people can still access the bar to get a drink yeah whereas if you've not got that those kind
of things next to the bar you tend to have a bit of a gathering yeah people hang around a bit to
bit more yeah and you kind of it kind of yeah absolutely i would always put higher furniture
close to the bar so it kind of frames it a little bit because you do want people and you don't want
big empty spaces because you say you're going to have loads of people just standing around and then
it blocks your view so if you've got poser tables sort of staggered around it brilliant because then
that's going to get people congregate around those tables rather than what you want everyone else to
look at which is the bar so i think that's a really good point that keep high around the bar more so
and nobody wants to sit on a dining table right next to a bar where everyone's standing
it's not comfortable you're going to have people looking over you and it's going to feel quite
uncomfortable in a lot of old traditional pubs they do have that sometimes but it's just yeah
that's not something i would design in for sure i have to keep mid and poser to around the bar
and then have the dining area comfortable so people can feel safe when they're eating rather than
somebody looming over them yeah cool there's so much we could talk about i know i could go on all
day oh erin it's been so nice to have you here thank you so much for coming in as well we're
talking about doing on teams and everyone's like no i went to come so she's in the podcast studio
absolutely yeah thank you for having me yeah you're very welcome i hope that you guys have
got some benefit out of our conversation today and you've been educated a little bit about
pub design i hope this is helping helping you guys learn a bit more and we hope that you like the
podcast absolutely sorry if i ramble on i'm a bit passionate about it but just have fun with it
this is one of the best jobs you can have because people will appreciate what you do so just have
fun with it absolutely and go be bold and yeah you'll get some great responses from that i would
say so thank you for having me it's been a pleasure thank you for listening to the interior design
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